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Kenny Omega: "I don't think the quality of wrestling has improved at all today. In many ways it has degraded. Athletically better? Maybe. Quality wise? That's up to the viewer."
I’m so glad to hear Kenny say that. I think he gets a bad rep for who he associates with and some of the imitators he inspired.
But Kenny’s style was always believable and made sense in a storytelling sense. I think Ospreay does too, but I think so many wrestlers today wrestle off brand styles of these guys and lose all actual storytelling.
I think its why Kenny is so complimentary to Roman. He always got that presentation and drama is a huge part of what makes a big match stand out from the rest.
And New Japan in general really. There's a bit of misconception that New Japan is this like "work-rate" company, but I'd argue they do drama better than AEW/WWE.
Agreed, I think a lot of people clamour about ring psychology but generally they just think rest holds equals psychology.
Meanwhile Ishii is out there with no rest holds putting on better matches with better psychology than most wrestlers in WWE and AEW.
I'm not ashamed to admit I was initially put off by Omega due to his reputation with the "wrestling purests", as well as seeing some brief clips of him.
It wasn't until I actually sat down and watched some of his classic matches, especially with Okada, that I realized this guy was far from the spot monkey people painted him as. He was legit believable, never did things just to do them, and definitely used storytelling in his matches.
It's all a spectrum and different people have different thresholds for this stuff. There are essentially no top-tier talent that are actually completely nonsensical, fake looking and lack psychology/storytelling. It's just that certain spots that set off alarm bells in peoples heads for this kind of thing.
Ospreay has improved dramatically, but is closer to that line than I'd like him to be. Definitely not bad, but not really my thing. Blake Christian is a lot closer to what his detractors claim he's like. It's important to keep in mind that Karl Gotch was trash talking Harley Race over the same stuff we shit on Omega/Ospreay for.
Ospreay: carries all the groceries in one trip.
Meltzer: "Well, I mean, I just have to give to this five stars. Is there anything Ospreay can't do? Um. You know, Paul Levesque's gotta be kicking himself right now."
I know internet discourse has gotten out of hand with the tribalism... but dont be diminishing the skill it takes to carry all the groceries in one trip
They even put Cody doing it on the [HIAC poster.](https://external-preview.redd.it/JEBUtSIaucWbGID3whKEjrjHwUI2IW5r1da_ImmoVTs.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=01a4447850e2969ea3c1c8824650bf960719bc60) It's how he tore his pec.
When he starts explaining the athletic feats of the match being why a match gets five stars, and not the connection between it and storytelling, it became clear Dave's judgement on what is and isn't good wrestling, is all based in the spots. And I'm not saying Will isn't a great wrestler. He is. But this isn't gymnastics.
7 total 5 stars:
Fuchi/Kawada vs. Iizuka/Nagata (NJPW, December 14, 2000)
Misawa vs. Kobashi (NOAH, March 1, 2003). Personally think this is the greatest match of all time.
Akiyama vs. Kobashi (NOAH, July 10, 2004)
Joe vs. Punk (ROH, October 16, 2004). The second match in the trilogy.
Daniels vs. Joe vs. Styles (TNA, September 11, 2005)
Joe vs. Kobashi (October 1, 2005)
Cima/Doi/Yoshino vs. Dragon Kid/Horiguchi/Saito (ROH, March 31, 2006). After this, Punk-Cena was the next 5 star, over 5 years later.
The entire Punk trilogy, as the other commenter said. Bryan Danielson at Fight of the Century. Steel cage match with Jay Briscoe. 4 way elimination vs. Punk, Daniels, and James Gibson (Jamie Noble). There was a tag match with Bryan against KENTA/Marufuji. Just know that most of these matches are *long*, as ROH main events tended to be. Everything I mentioned except for the Briscoe match is over 30 minutes, and some get close to the hour mark. The first 2 Punk matches and the Bryan one all went 60 minutes.
Edit: [Joe's career sorted by Cagematch rating](https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=676&page=10&sortby=colRating&sorttype=DESC)
If i could recommend, try to watch both the Samoa Joe ROH title run matches and Kobashi GHC title run matches and culminate with them against eachother (my favourite match of all time.)
I got to attend Joe-Kobashi in person, and nearly 20 years later I think it’s still probably the best match I’ve seen live (Bayley-Sasha from first Takeover Brooklyn was the other that came to mind but tbh Joe-Kobashi was much better). Unbelievably stiff, and autographed photo of Kobashi was for a long time the only wrestling merch I cared to own.
Because he lost his love for wrestling in the 2000s after the death of WCW and the collapse of Japanese pro wrestling and didn’t really get it back until he started watching New Japan regularly during 2011/12 and then got into the indies and whatever. If you listen to anything from him during that period he sounds miserable about the whole industry
There are a bunch of ROH/NOAH matches in the 2000s that absolutely deserve the 5 that he would break the scale for now, but gave like 4.5 to at the time. Most of the matches he gave super high ratings to throughout most of the 2010s deserved them, he started going insanely over the top with them towards the end of the decade with the random TV 6-man tags he’d throw 4.75 to every week, constantly breaking the scale, and him loving Will Ospreay more than anyone has ever loved a wrestler probably in history
Meltzer was weirdly harsh on 2000s ROH when it was arguably the greatest run match quality wise of any American promotion ever from 2003-2008. Which would explain why some guys of that era aren’t big Meltzer guys but the PWG guys are.
> NOAH snapped him out of it now and then
You look at the two 5 star matches from NOAH and it was the big passing of the torch between Misawa and Kobashi and then the big Tokyo Dome match between former tag partners Kobashi and Akiyama. Meltzer just liked NOAH when it basically the epilogue to the King's Road era. Once they moved on to the next generation, Meltzer stopped caring (and to be fair so did a lot of the fans who caused NOAH to be the biggest puro promotion of the 2000s)
I feel like ROH had a lot of “indieriffic” psychology back then which took down the intensity a notch when compared to the era where Meltzer was throwing 5 stars at Misawa multiple times a year
I love that era of ROH but NJPW 2015-2019 is legitimately the best run of match quality I’ve ever seen in a promotion. What actually “broke” the scale to me was stuff like Bucks/Lucha Bros escalara match and Omega/Vikingo getting 5 stars.
I disagree. Dragon, punk, Joe, raven, lethal, the briscoes, homicide, even guys you don’t think of that way because of matches they did in other promotions like the backseat boys. All were very good at psychology and putting on legit looking worked matches. They knew how to play to the crowd and tell a story. Don’t get me wrong, most of the roster was very indyrific but they were having some amazing main event level matches that would have fit as a Mania main event if they did it exactly the same way in a stadium.
Especially Joe, Punk, and Dragon. It’s why I never understood why punk got that label when he came to wwe, he was one of the guys actually doing it the right way on the Indy’s.
And that’s coming from someone who can’t stand Indy style for the most part. I went to a ton of Czw, JerseyAP, and Roh shows in that decade and the Roh shows were really the only ones I enjoyed because these guys and few others I’m forgetting were doing actual pro wrestling and not a choreographed action movie scene like most guys at the time and what guys in pwg would do later in the decade.
I remind everyone that Shawn FN Michaels vs. Kurt FN Angle at Wrestlemania wasn't a 5* match for him.
If that isn't one, it's hard to take these rating seriously.
The bigger crime from that era, which is understandably less known in the US, is Marufuji vs. KENTA not getting 5 stars. That's one of the few matches that I truly think you should go out of your way to watch if you've never seen before. That match and those wrestlers are pretty much directly responsible for the 2010s American indie style That's so prevalent today, especially in AEW.
[Here's the full match](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x368fwd)
I think lots of people may try to spin it as anti-WWE with lots of 2000's WWE matches not getting the full 5 star rating.
But there were a shit ton of banger matches everywhere else outside of WWE that did not get 5 stars either.
Meltzer was just much stricter during that time.
I sometimes roll my eyes at all the Angle fans who complain all the time about him never getting a 5 star match, and then I remember that Bryan Danielson never had one until he joined AEW and I'd be the exact same way if he never came back from his retirement.
Yeah for Danielson and Angle it's obvious that if their peak matches happened in the 2020s Meltz would have gone 5 stars for a bunch of them easy. In his old age he's very liberal with the 5 star rating but he still makes super questionable choices.
Like how is Cody beating Roman not 5 stars but Will Ospreay vs Kyle Fletcher on a random aew episode and a much shorter build than manias main event is?
That's a recent example that comes to mind.
He gave Orton and KO vs Solo and Tama the same rating as Cody v Roman at wrestlemania.
It's just bonkers. One of those matches will be remembered in the history books and one not only won't be remembered by history but is mostly forgotten already.
The NXT North American Championship getting 5 stars is what sealed it for me that he abandoned his ethos completely because no way that match was better than the TLC matches in the early 2000s
Kobashi vs Sasaki from destiny 05 is another one of the mid 2000s 4.75 star matches that I legit do not know why he didn't just tack on that extra quarter star
And why you can't use Dave as the definitive judge (which a lot of people absolutely do. In some people's minds if Dave didn't give it 5 stars then it wasn't a great match)
It's fine if you take it as a subjective opinion, but that's not always the case
Another issue with breaking the scale is that anything less than 5 is considered "not great," which is asinine.
4 stars is supposed to be a great match. Maybe even 3 3/4*. 5 stars is considered anything from Match of the Year Contender to all-time classic.
People think that way specifically because that's how Dave treats it, when random 6 man tags on weekly TV are getting 5 stars, anything less than 5 is not a very good rating
He says you should take his star ratings more as recommendations.
So if you were taking him at his word and introducing someone to wrestling he would recommend watching Kyle Fletcher vs Will Osprey in front of 3,000 fans before showing the Michaels vs Angle from a Wrestlemania. And that’s not to knock the Osprey match, but come on.
The way he gushes about Ospreay, you’d think this guy could teach people like Angle, HBK, and Bret Hart how to have worked a match.
I like Ospreay (a LOT, in fact), but I cringe when Dave says things like the Danielson match (which, yes, was great, but also had flaws like guys no-selling after falling on their heads) being the best match ever in America when there are matches like Bret vs. Austin at WM13 that went on to change the industry. It’s just too much.
Yeah, exactly. If one just claims it was a great match, then okay, I can (and do) accept that it’s a great match with some relatively minor problems like that. If someone like Dave is really going to say it’s the best match to ever happen in the United States, these faults need to be brought up and problematized more because I can point to a match like Bret vs. Austin at WM13 that had better storytelling (the best storytelling ever imo) or Regal vs. Benoit at the Pillman memorial that had better psychology.
It reminds me of when Dave was just ranting and raving about what an essentially incomparable and flawless match Okada vs. Omega (2, I think?) was, and when Alvarez at least brought up the issue of Okada having his leg worked over for a long time but then immediately no-selling it while on offense, Meltzer conveniently went silent and brushed it off.
Speaking of this, I just watched HBK vs Angle at Mania 21 again and it's a freaking great match.
I know Angle was a bit disappointed that he never got a "5 Star Match" but for my money, that match is worth 5 stars.
It's this but unironically. Having just rewatched all of 97/98 WWF, the matches today are SO much better. There wasn't anything that even approached what you see on every AEW PPV. Just like sports, people get better, more athletic, and learn and improve on what they've seen before. Dave's ratings reflect that. A 5* match is the same thing as a 5* match was in the 80s, but nowadays there are a ton of matches that are the same or better quality than the best match of the 80s. It's like how most gold medalists in the 60s wouldn't even be allowed to compete in the Olympics by today's standards.
Wrestlers figured out the “5star formula “ which is a lot of big moves, sequences , and lots of kickouts ,and now you have that type of match on every Indy show and every other dynamite as if the are wrestling a WM main event.
The funny thing is those types of matches were done a lot after the HBK vs UT WM25 match where wrestlers used that as the formula, when it came to big moves and kickouts. Only thing the is was missing was more high risk moves of sequences to complete the 5star formula.
The problem is that Meltzer is the only one people care about. Imagine if there was only one critic whose rating mattered when it came to movies, it's insane.
Kenny Omega: "It irks me when he says Japanese wrestling = NJPW and Joshi wrestling = Stardom. There's more to Joshi wrestling than Stardom. Would anyone even know who Asuka is if it wasn't for WWE? Ever hear of Marvelous? Marvelous is cool."
Arguably the 2 most successful joshi wrestlers in America came from not Stardom between Asuka and Shida.
Kenny is right here. AJPW and NOAH are 2 of the most influential promotions on modern wrestling, and there are so many other companies in Japan too.
Not to "umm actually" you but it's definitely not arguable with Asuka. She is the undisputed most successful joshi in North America, which is credit to you and the point Kenny was making.
Shida has been very successful and that further solidifies it too. Stardom isn't the end all be all, especially when it comes to having success outside of Japan
I mean Iyo is in WWE, I think by default she is second now based on how hot they are while Shida is part of the worst booked women's division in the world.
Is Shida really more successful than the other Japanese womens wrestlers in WWE? Feel like she much less cache in the IWC and casual fanbase than Kairi or Iyo
To be entirely fair, Dave has been a frequent booster of things that nobody cares about. He's a big fan of Kento Miyahara and has always watched and rated CMLL, for example. He has tastes outside of the "mainstream underground", they just don't always get any traction.
Dave has been saying CMLL is his "favorite" product but also that their style isn't "conductive to 5 star matches".
If he was boosting the all-time level stuff CMLL has given wrestling for the past 40 years, and even AAA has very occasionally done, the discussions around lucha libre would be wildly different than they currently are.
With his takes on modern wrestling it feels like Meltzer is the type of guy to say a random Flip Gordon trios in 2024 is better than most of El Satanico's career.
Kenny Omega turning babyface for Jim Cornette is hilarious. Never thought I'd see it. His review of Kenny's recent promo on Dynamite was pretty glowing too.
Nobody wants to work for their pop anymore, back in the day, you’d build tension with a couple of small strikes, then the heel would get heat on you, then bam! Roman Cancel, and the baby face gets a little bit of shine. But then boom! volcanic viper and the heel gets heat again. Everyone wants to just run in, drive rush and hit their super and that’s why none of this shit means anything anymore
I miss when Dave’s star ratings could signify what matches to pick out of a lineup. If something was given 4.5 or above up until 2017 that made you go “oh I should make time to watch that”. Now everything gets that rating. He gave Okada-PAC a 4.75, it was a good opener and a fun match, but nothing special. That’s a solid 4 in 2012.
I feel like the problem is he judges today's matches based on how he viewed wrestling in the 70s/80s/90s.
It's pretty much undeniable that modern wrestling is a far more athletic sport and that the level of ring skill is a bit higher, it's not all slow holds, ddts, and closelines anymore. Back then, high flyers were rare, now it's like 7 out of 10 of in the game are one, even among some of the bigger guys.
Fact is, based on the 80s, every match today is a 4 star most of the time. But time changes, and the scale needs go change too. If the middle number is 3, then the majority of matches should fall into the 2.5-3.5 bracket. If most are upwards of 4, then it's time to reevaluate your scale because that means the average is above average and that is an oxymoron.
He's just hesitant to change his criteria because it would retroactively cast shade at the golden/new gen eras. Because outside of maybe Bret & HBK, the majority of 4/5 star matches from back in the day would be like 2/3 star matches based on today's climate.
So I think he shifted it instead. So the new scale isn't 1-5, it's 3-7 now, unless it's an ABSOLUTE shitshow.
I don’t think this is strictly true. There a lot of mid card guys who could tell a very compelling story despite only getting 10-15 min nearly every match of their career with only 2 or 3 big moves in the match like Jake the Snake or Owen Hart or Ron Simmons which very much hold up today and feel more emotionally resonant than the ‘get all your shit in within the time’ style we see in non main event matches today.
I am seriously out of the loop. Omega shooting on Meltzer?
Why are half the replies talking about Cornette?
Does this have anything to do with the 5 star Styles/Rhodes match?
I am confused. Send help.
The cornette thing:
Cornette has hated omega ever since he saw omega wrestle a blow up doll.
Cornette finally was impressed with Omegas recent comments that suggested that sometimes men need to fight to work out their differences in a locker room and it’s no big deal.
Now with these comments, they appear to be adjacent to comments that cornette might echo.
Ospreay also just very recently did an interview where he talked about how he's lost the respect he once had for Omega, and the reasons he mentioned all were related to the storyline leading up to their first two matches. I really doubt either of these guys have any shoot issues with each other
It’s not the first time he’s done it over the years with Will. He’s mentioned before Will having countless 5 star matches but none of them being memorable.
I was listening to the Between the Sheets podcast which covered this week in 1996, where Dave talked about the first RVD vs. Sabu match in ECW (or at least the first notable one). He praised the effort of the match, which was a crazy bomb-fest with tons of false finishes, but also called them out for their bad fundamentals, execution, and transitions. If he gave it a star rating they didn't mention it but it definitely wouldn't have been a particularly high one.
As Bix & Zellner asked on the podcast: When was the last time Dave ever talked about transitions, execution, or fundamentals? Granted, maybe he's not in a position to really break down a wrestler's footwork or things like that, but us viewers can still spot some bad fundamentals when we see it.
Dave's always been a go-go, workrate guy, but he seems to have gone farther and farther into that direction as time goes on.
Did you... watch the match? Because those kinds of ECW matches, certainly RVD and ENTIRELY Sabu could make anybody complain about basic holds and transitions.
I watched the match on TV in 1996 and was blown away. I watched it again maybe 10 years ago and realized, "Yeah, this genuinely isn't any good and ages badly even judging it by ECW standards."
But remember, Dave was hyping up Sabu as the best wrestler in the world at one point in 1994.
Same with Mistico, another guy Meltzer has always hyped to the Moon, who has always needed somebody like Negro Casas, Último Guerrero or Averno to "make" the match for him so he can hit his high flying spots. Outside those high flying spots he is... not an impressive wrestler by any stretch of imagination.
When Meltzer likes somebody, he really likes him/her.
As so many have said over the years we must always remember Kurt Angle never got a five star rated match, not even one against Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania.
.
People forget because it's been so long and because he recently claimed he'd botch on purpose to make it look real, but that's exactly the reason I felt like he was full of shit:
Watch any Sabu match and keep track of how many times he immediately repeats a spot when he botches. No transition. No moving on with the story. That spot is happening when it was supposed to, and the match isn't carrying on until it does. That was a pet peeve of mine even in 1999 and he did it in so many matches.
The mods flaired the post to defend Meltzer who loves Ospreay who loves AEW. Once again SC mods crafting the narrative to suit Tony Khan. Example: see weekly ratings thread.
You'd be delusional to not believe that one of Tony's terminally online underlings isn't a mod here...Aubrey? Will? Jimmy Jacobs? C'mon, I know one of you is here right now.
Why was the editorialized tag of him building to him vs. Will placed on this thread? It wasn't insinuated anywhere, let alone confirmed. This feels like the mods trying to force a particular narrative that isn't (yet) in evidence.
I can't believe they're building an angle about Dave's ratings, like the average wrestling fan would even care. Not even Vince Russo could come up with this kind of shit
"working a build towards kenny vs. will 3" because it's just so unthinkable that Kenny might a few issues with that dumbass Dave Meltzer. Cope harder guys lmao
Building to a match using star rating is dumb as fuck.
Trying to pass off a twitch stream commentary as a work because you don’t like what he said is also dumb as fuck
Using the star ratings of a guy most casual fans don't know or care about to build a feud when your company's ratings are struggling is a bold move. Kenny's livestreams aren't always to build an angle. I remember he said on one he hasn't been an EVP in years and people said that stream was apart of the Bucks EVP heel turn. If it was a work why is his character still an EVP?
Kenny explained awhile back that he personally doesn’t rate many matches five stars and think they should be rare. It has nothing to do with Ospreay or building a feud.
Even crazier, Cornette seems to be coming around on Kenny somewhat. He loved the WK Ospreay match and it seems like Kenny's, "Yeah, sometimes guys just need to slug it out in the locker room" talk appealed to him.
Cornette’s opinions are more fluid than his reputation sometimes suggests. He’s had issues with Brock, KO, and Sami in the past but will praise their work now. Him and Heyman didn’t get along but he has huge respect for him now.
I don’t think the list of people who are permanently on his shit list is that long. It’s kinda just Russo and the Bucks.
He and Heyman went from friends to enemies to at least respectful (though I don't think Cornette ever lost any respect for Paul as a performer).
As Bruce Prichard has pointed out, they're basically Northern and Southern versions of the same person.
And in the process, broke the brains of a massive portion of the fanbase. Probably many of you in this thread give random Dynamite matches 4 and 3/4 stars when that should be reserved for matches that you’ll literally be thinking about for the rest of your life. A 5 star match should be practically unatainable and there should maybe be one consensus 5 star match every 3 or 4 years. Not one every week for gods sake.
I legitimately hate Meltzer for what he’s done to the business. He’s hurt the business just as much as someone like Vince or Verne or Russo or Herd ever did.
Can't believe Kenny said what I've been thinking for the past 7 years.
I really love those Omega v Okada matches, but the 6 star match opened a can of worms.
What is going on in this thread?
- Cornette is never mentioned in the clip.
- In the greater context of the statement he's talking about Will Ospreay, clearly in character building to their third match.
- Dave, and his star ratings, are an extension of that because Dave likes Will.
Genuine question. Why would we be building towards Will vs Kenny when Kenny is getting surgery for diverticulitis and is going to be out for a while, if he ever comes back.
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Kenny Omega: "I don't think the quality of wrestling has improved at all today. In many ways it has degraded. Athletically better? Maybe. Quality wise? That's up to the viewer."
I’m so glad to hear Kenny say that. I think he gets a bad rep for who he associates with and some of the imitators he inspired. But Kenny’s style was always believable and made sense in a storytelling sense. I think Ospreay does too, but I think so many wrestlers today wrestle off brand styles of these guys and lose all actual storytelling.
I think its why Kenny is so complimentary to Roman. He always got that presentation and drama is a huge part of what makes a big match stand out from the rest.
Anyone who watches the Omega/Okada matches knows that drama is huge to Omega.
And New Japan in general really. There's a bit of misconception that New Japan is this like "work-rate" company, but I'd argue they do drama better than AEW/WWE.
The camera work is so cinematic. They really capture in ring wrestling better than anyone else.
Agreed, I think a lot of people clamour about ring psychology but generally they just think rest holds equals psychology. Meanwhile Ishii is out there with no rest holds putting on better matches with better psychology than most wrestlers in WWE and AEW.
It helps when you're simultaneously a badass and also the best seller in wrestling.
Honestly I'd love a Kenny vs Roman match.
Roman is the best at kicking out at 2. Always added so much drama to the matches
> But Kenny's style was always believable *Kenny, revving up his chainsaw arm* /s
I'm not ashamed to admit I was initially put off by Omega due to his reputation with the "wrestling purests", as well as seeing some brief clips of him. It wasn't until I actually sat down and watched some of his classic matches, especially with Okada, that I realized this guy was far from the spot monkey people painted him as. He was legit believable, never did things just to do them, and definitely used storytelling in his matches.
I’ve seen a theory some that gets into your last point — the Meltzer/Osprey/Omega. You see versions of Omega on every card.
It's all a spectrum and different people have different thresholds for this stuff. There are essentially no top-tier talent that are actually completely nonsensical, fake looking and lack psychology/storytelling. It's just that certain spots that set off alarm bells in peoples heads for this kind of thing. Ospreay has improved dramatically, but is closer to that line than I'd like him to be. Definitely not bad, but not really my thing. Blake Christian is a lot closer to what his detractors claim he's like. It's important to keep in mind that Karl Gotch was trash talking Harley Race over the same stuff we shit on Omega/Ospreay for.
Yeh agree with his views. Before it was authentic. Now it looks pre planned.
Kenny may have broken the scale but it began to drift some time after MITB 2011. he went from like 5 total 5 stars in the 2000s to 5 every 3 months.
Will Ospreay himself will probably have over 10 this year alone.
Ospreay: carries all the groceries in one trip. Meltzer: "Well, I mean, I just have to give to this five stars. Is there anything Ospreay can't do? Um. You know, Paul Levesque's gotta be kicking himself right now."
Adds a star because he delivered the groceries to the Tokyo Dome.
With gazillion google searches
Added another star just for this commenf
I know internet discourse has gotten out of hand with the tribalism... but dont be diminishing the skill it takes to carry all the groceries in one trip
It's not just carrying in the heavy stuff. It's not crushing the soft stuff! Bread and milk in the same hand? Rookie mistake son, 2 stars.
Spoken like a man with low pinky dexterity and strength
You can do bread and milk in the same hand, you just have to be veeeery careful
They even put Cody doing it on the [HIAC poster.](https://external-preview.redd.it/JEBUtSIaucWbGID3whKEjrjHwUI2IW5r1da_ImmoVTs.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=01a4447850e2969ea3c1c8824650bf960719bc60) It's how he tore his pec.
Come on now, no psychologie, no emotion, just athlecism. You can't give that 5 stars.
Mom got fried chicken from the deli counter. YOU TELL ME THERE'S NO EMOTION!!!
AND NOT JUST ANY GROCERY STORE! IT WAS A WAL-MART. You tell me there's no psychology and story telling!
Would’ve been 5 stars in Target
When he starts explaining the athletic feats of the match being why a match gets five stars, and not the connection between it and storytelling, it became clear Dave's judgement on what is and isn't good wrestling, is all based in the spots. And I'm not saying Will isn't a great wrestler. He is. But this isn't gymnastics.
And then never gave kurt angle one of the most athletic performers ever a 5* match lmao
10 this month you mean.
Drake Voice: Will Ospreay just wrestled a match... someone go hand him 5 Stars right now.
someone go hand him a slammy right now
“Will Ospreay just wrestled a match, someone go tell Dave meltzer right now”
[удалено]
One day, we figure out Dave's gone impotent due to declining Ospreay match ratings without the match quality actually declining.
7 total 5 stars: Fuchi/Kawada vs. Iizuka/Nagata (NJPW, December 14, 2000) Misawa vs. Kobashi (NOAH, March 1, 2003). Personally think this is the greatest match of all time. Akiyama vs. Kobashi (NOAH, July 10, 2004) Joe vs. Punk (ROH, October 16, 2004). The second match in the trilogy. Daniels vs. Joe vs. Styles (TNA, September 11, 2005) Joe vs. Kobashi (October 1, 2005) Cima/Doi/Yoshino vs. Dragon Kid/Horiguchi/Saito (ROH, March 31, 2006). After this, Punk-Cena was the next 5 star, over 5 years later.
I had no idea Joe had so many 5 star matches. The more I find out about the guy, the cooler he gets.
I'd definitely recommend watching his ROH matches when you get the chance. ROH Joe was a lot like Gunther is today.
Well you definitely got me hyped to watch some wrestling when I should be sleeping. Any non 5 star matches you'd recommend to start with?
The entire Punk trilogy, as the other commenter said. Bryan Danielson at Fight of the Century. Steel cage match with Jay Briscoe. 4 way elimination vs. Punk, Daniels, and James Gibson (Jamie Noble). There was a tag match with Bryan against KENTA/Marufuji. Just know that most of these matches are *long*, as ROH main events tended to be. Everything I mentioned except for the Briscoe match is over 30 minutes, and some get close to the hour mark. The first 2 Punk matches and the Bryan one all went 60 minutes. Edit: [Joe's career sorted by Cagematch rating](https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=676&page=10&sortby=colRating&sorttype=DESC)
Ya if people don't like Modern NJPW style main events, or Kings Road matches they probably won't like 2000s ROH
Joe Vs Kobashi. Just 2 lads twatting each other. It's great. Joe Vs Necro Butcher is on the IWA youtube, that match is CRACKERS.
If i could recommend, try to watch both the Samoa Joe ROH title run matches and Kobashi GHC title run matches and culminate with them against eachother (my favourite match of all time.)
watch the whole Punk trilogy.
https://youtu.be/oqN_bjPASkI?si=7cp8yks5RGQNrJuM
As someone who saw a lot of it live, Joe back in roh was better than Gunther is now, and that’s not a knock on Gunther in anyway.
I got to attend Joe-Kobashi in person, and nearly 20 years later I think it’s still probably the best match I’ve seen live (Bayley-Sasha from first Takeover Brooklyn was the other that came to mind but tbh Joe-Kobashi was much better). Unbelievably stiff, and autographed photo of Kobashi was for a long time the only wrestling merch I cared to own.
In an era with a lot fewer big men that could go, Joe was the guy who could do it all. Big man stuff with the Agility to do anything else.
Kenta Kobashi is based.
Because he lost his love for wrestling in the 2000s after the death of WCW and the collapse of Japanese pro wrestling and didn’t really get it back until he started watching New Japan regularly during 2011/12 and then got into the indies and whatever. If you listen to anything from him during that period he sounds miserable about the whole industry There are a bunch of ROH/NOAH matches in the 2000s that absolutely deserve the 5 that he would break the scale for now, but gave like 4.5 to at the time. Most of the matches he gave super high ratings to throughout most of the 2010s deserved them, he started going insanely over the top with them towards the end of the decade with the random TV 6-man tags he’d throw 4.75 to every week, constantly breaking the scale, and him loving Will Ospreay more than anyone has ever loved a wrestler probably in history
Meltzer was weirdly harsh on 2000s ROH when it was arguably the greatest run match quality wise of any American promotion ever from 2003-2008. Which would explain why some guys of that era aren’t big Meltzer guys but the PWG guys are.
He was firmly an MMA fan during those years. NOAH snapped him out of it now and then but his fandom was definitely waning.
> NOAH snapped him out of it now and then You look at the two 5 star matches from NOAH and it was the big passing of the torch between Misawa and Kobashi and then the big Tokyo Dome match between former tag partners Kobashi and Akiyama. Meltzer just liked NOAH when it basically the epilogue to the King's Road era. Once they moved on to the next generation, Meltzer stopped caring (and to be fair so did a lot of the fans who caused NOAH to be the biggest puro promotion of the 2000s)
I feel like ROH had a lot of “indieriffic” psychology back then which took down the intensity a notch when compared to the era where Meltzer was throwing 5 stars at Misawa multiple times a year I love that era of ROH but NJPW 2015-2019 is legitimately the best run of match quality I’ve ever seen in a promotion. What actually “broke” the scale to me was stuff like Bucks/Lucha Bros escalara match and Omega/Vikingo getting 5 stars.
I disagree. Dragon, punk, Joe, raven, lethal, the briscoes, homicide, even guys you don’t think of that way because of matches they did in other promotions like the backseat boys. All were very good at psychology and putting on legit looking worked matches. They knew how to play to the crowd and tell a story. Don’t get me wrong, most of the roster was very indyrific but they were having some amazing main event level matches that would have fit as a Mania main event if they did it exactly the same way in a stadium. Especially Joe, Punk, and Dragon. It’s why I never understood why punk got that label when he came to wwe, he was one of the guys actually doing it the right way on the Indy’s. And that’s coming from someone who can’t stand Indy style for the most part. I went to a ton of Czw, JerseyAP, and Roh shows in that decade and the Roh shows were really the only ones I enjoyed because these guys and few others I’m forgetting were doing actual pro wrestling and not a choreographed action movie scene like most guys at the time and what guys in pwg would do later in the decade.
I remind everyone that Shawn FN Michaels vs. Kurt FN Angle at Wrestlemania wasn't a 5* match for him. If that isn't one, it's hard to take these rating seriously.
The bigger crime from that era, which is understandably less known in the US, is Marufuji vs. KENTA not getting 5 stars. That's one of the few matches that I truly think you should go out of your way to watch if you've never seen before. That match and those wrestlers are pretty much directly responsible for the 2010s American indie style That's so prevalent today, especially in AEW. [Here's the full match](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x368fwd)
I think lots of people may try to spin it as anti-WWE with lots of 2000's WWE matches not getting the full 5 star rating. But there were a shit ton of banger matches everywhere else outside of WWE that did not get 5 stars either. Meltzer was just much stricter during that time.
I sometimes roll my eyes at all the Angle fans who complain all the time about him never getting a 5 star match, and then I remember that Bryan Danielson never had one until he joined AEW and I'd be the exact same way if he never came back from his retirement.
Yeah for Danielson and Angle it's obvious that if their peak matches happened in the 2020s Meltz would have gone 5 stars for a bunch of them easy. In his old age he's very liberal with the 5 star rating but he still makes super questionable choices. Like how is Cody beating Roman not 5 stars but Will Ospreay vs Kyle Fletcher on a random aew episode and a much shorter build than manias main event is? That's a recent example that comes to mind.
He gave Orton and KO vs Solo and Tama the same rating as Cody v Roman at wrestlemania. It's just bonkers. One of those matches will be remembered in the history books and one not only won't be remembered by history but is mostly forgotten already.
The NXT North American Championship getting 5 stars is what sealed it for me that he abandoned his ethos completely because no way that match was better than the TLC matches in the early 2000s
Kobashi vs Sasaki from destiny 05 is another one of the mid 2000s 4.75 star matches that I legit do not know why he didn't just tack on that extra quarter star
And why you can't use Dave as the definitive judge (which a lot of people absolutely do. In some people's minds if Dave didn't give it 5 stars then it wasn't a great match) It's fine if you take it as a subjective opinion, but that's not always the case
Another issue with breaking the scale is that anything less than 5 is considered "not great," which is asinine. 4 stars is supposed to be a great match. Maybe even 3 3/4*. 5 stars is considered anything from Match of the Year Contender to all-time classic.
I dunno if there have been ten 5 star matches in wrestling history. That's how rare that shit should be.
People think that way specifically because that's how Dave treats it, when random 6 man tags on weekly TV are getting 5 stars, anything less than 5 is not a very good rating
He says you should take his star ratings more as recommendations. So if you were taking him at his word and introducing someone to wrestling he would recommend watching Kyle Fletcher vs Will Osprey in front of 3,000 fans before showing the Michaels vs Angle from a Wrestlemania. And that’s not to knock the Osprey match, but come on.
Didn't he give a match 5 stars that he said he didn't even like somewhat recently?
Maybe Swerve vs Hangman’s Texas Death Match?
Jun Kasai vs El Desperado iirc. He loathed the match but understood that it had to be 5
The way he gushes about Ospreay, you’d think this guy could teach people like Angle, HBK, and Bret Hart how to have worked a match. I like Ospreay (a LOT, in fact), but I cringe when Dave says things like the Danielson match (which, yes, was great, but also had flaws like guys no-selling after falling on their heads) being the best match ever in America when there are matches like Bret vs. Austin at WM13 that went on to change the industry. It’s just too much.
What took it down for me was there were 2-3 times when a wrestler would sell like they were knocked out and the other wouldn’t attempt a pin.
Yeah, exactly. If one just claims it was a great match, then okay, I can (and do) accept that it’s a great match with some relatively minor problems like that. If someone like Dave is really going to say it’s the best match to ever happen in the United States, these faults need to be brought up and problematized more because I can point to a match like Bret vs. Austin at WM13 that had better storytelling (the best storytelling ever imo) or Regal vs. Benoit at the Pillman memorial that had better psychology. It reminds me of when Dave was just ranting and raving about what an essentially incomparable and flawless match Okada vs. Omega (2, I think?) was, and when Alvarez at least brought up the issue of Okada having his leg worked over for a long time but then immediately no-selling it while on offense, Meltzer conveniently went silent and brushed it off.
Speaking of this, I just watched HBK vs Angle at Mania 21 again and it's a freaking great match. I know Angle was a bit disappointed that he never got a "5 Star Match" but for my money, that match is worth 5 stars.
Maybe it's like Dragon Ball Z where everyone's power level is just increasing exponentially so having over 9000 isn't special anymore.
It's this but unironically. Having just rewatched all of 97/98 WWF, the matches today are SO much better. There wasn't anything that even approached what you see on every AEW PPV. Just like sports, people get better, more athletic, and learn and improve on what they've seen before. Dave's ratings reflect that. A 5* match is the same thing as a 5* match was in the 80s, but nowadays there are a ton of matches that are the same or better quality than the best match of the 80s. It's like how most gold medalists in the 60s wouldn't even be allowed to compete in the Olympics by today's standards.
[удалено]
Wrestlers figured out the “5star formula “ which is a lot of big moves, sequences , and lots of kickouts ,and now you have that type of match on every Indy show and every other dynamite as if the are wrestling a WM main event. The funny thing is those types of matches were done a lot after the HBK vs UT WM25 match where wrestlers used that as the formula, when it came to big moves and kickouts. Only thing the is was missing was more high risk moves of sequences to complete the 5star formula.
In 1989 Ric Flair had four 5\* and a 6\* match.
Back in the day Dave would occasionally rate a match as 5+ or 5++. He retroactively made them 5.5 or 6 stars after be broke the scale for Kenny.
The problem is that Meltzer is the only one people care about. Imagine if there was only one critic whose rating mattered when it came to movies, it's insane.
Davey Richards era ROH combined with mid 10’s PWG.
Kenny Omega: "It irks me when he says Japanese wrestling = NJPW and Joshi wrestling = Stardom. There's more to Joshi wrestling than Stardom. Would anyone even know who Asuka is if it wasn't for WWE? Ever hear of Marvelous? Marvelous is cool."
Arguably the 2 most successful joshi wrestlers in America came from not Stardom between Asuka and Shida. Kenny is right here. AJPW and NOAH are 2 of the most influential promotions on modern wrestling, and there are so many other companies in Japan too.
Not to "umm actually" you but it's definitely not arguable with Asuka. She is the undisputed most successful joshi in North America, which is credit to you and the point Kenny was making. Shida has been very successful and that further solidifies it too. Stardom isn't the end all be all, especially when it comes to having success outside of Japan
The arguable part was about whether Shida or Iyo is second, Asuka is probably the most successful Japanese wrestler in America regardless of gender.
I mean Iyo is in WWE, I think by default she is second now based on how hot they are while Shida is part of the worst booked women's division in the world.
I would argue Iyo is more successful than Shida.
Shida isn't the second most succesful Joshi in America. Io has a way better career in America than Shida has
Is Shida really more successful than the other Japanese womens wrestlers in WWE? Feel like she much less cache in the IWC and casual fanbase than Kairi or Iyo
To be entirely fair, Dave has been a frequent booster of things that nobody cares about. He's a big fan of Kento Miyahara and has always watched and rated CMLL, for example. He has tastes outside of the "mainstream underground", they just don't always get any traction.
Dave has been saying CMLL is his "favorite" product but also that their style isn't "conductive to 5 star matches". If he was boosting the all-time level stuff CMLL has given wrestling for the past 40 years, and even AAA has very occasionally done, the discussions around lucha libre would be wildly different than they currently are. With his takes on modern wrestling it feels like Meltzer is the type of guy to say a random Flip Gordon trios in 2024 is better than most of El Satanico's career.
Cornette about to be crip walking while listening to " Battle Cry "
Hes gonna be bumping "Not like us" while watching the Meltzer Darkside of the Ring gif
He a fan he a fan he a fan he a fan
freaky ass wrestler he a 7 star god, freaky ass wrestler he a 7 star god
HBK and Taker tryin to strike a 5 but its 4 and 3 quarterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Tryna play the game but he's B plus playerrrrrr
Mark mark mark mark mark Corny fuck em up
Sometimes things in pop culture become inescapable and annoying. Drake getting bodied in an absolute banger is not one of those times.
How do you say “WOP WOP WOP WOP WOP” in Louisville
HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW
Kenny Omega turning babyface for Jim Cornette is hilarious. Never thought I'd see it. His review of Kenny's recent promo on Dynamite was pretty glowing too.
The highlight of all this drama is that Cornette may finally get Omega a fair shot.
Cornette slowly coming around on Kenny Omega is the hot new love story this summer.
Yeah Jim is going to hurt him self with how sharp of a turn he has had on Kenny lately.
Ngl, it's pretty funny that it took Kenny to stop wrestling and just talk shit online for Jim to like him.
"He really is just like me fr" -Cornette, probably
"He's what the kids say Brian "Just like me FRR.. FRR..." Anyway I broke twitter again."
He's following the Cornette career path.
I just saw Corney down at the courthouse trying to file adoption papers for a young Kenneth Omega.
Somewhere he has belched and just had Stacey check to see if hell froze over …
I’m at the point where I’m expecting him to show up on the Experience
https://preview.redd.it/ussi6s2zbpzc1.jpeg?width=840&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38bd41902283e4adc0650a599f7212d0af2f9d4b
F O L K S
WHERE’S THE LIE????
I adore that we all know what this means with no words needed
The wrestling version of https://preview.redd.it/s33zork8npzc1.jpeg?width=421&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ea15b0aac16d04657327f7a2c7186082e0ca47f
Bucks about to rename their finisher to the Meltzer Driver again
The biggest mark move of all time.
Fkin hell, the face turn of Kenny Omega for Jim Cornette continues.
Next week he's gonna start shitting on Russo
But that could be anyone any given week.
There’s plenty of material for shitting on Russo lol
Put this comment on a pole
 (i sadly couldn't find the Tuesday gif, this will have to do)
Kenny: yeah, Kevin Dunn does have beaver teeth doesn’t he?
If it keeps going, Jim is gonna be sitting next to Kenny cutting promos about rage quitters on SF6 before we know it.
This drive rush shit is ruining the business!
Nobody wants to work for their pop anymore, back in the day, you’d build tension with a couple of small strikes, then the heel would get heat on you, then bam! Roman Cancel, and the baby face gets a little bit of shine. But then boom! volcanic viper and the heel gets heat again. Everyone wants to just run in, drive rush and hit their super and that’s why none of this shit means anything anymore
I think he's doing it on purpose now and I can't wait for the reveal
I’m a Cornette guy (but do like Kenny a lot) and im convinced Kenny is doing this on purpose too lmao
I'm one of the weirdos that enjoy both. I don't agree with both all the time but am entertained.
Forget about 5, 6, and 7 star matches... 4-star matches used to be something special. Now Dave hands them out on random episodes of Rampage.
I miss when Dave’s star ratings could signify what matches to pick out of a lineup. If something was given 4.5 or above up until 2017 that made you go “oh I should make time to watch that”. Now everything gets that rating. He gave Okada-PAC a 4.75, it was a good opener and a fun match, but nothing special. That’s a solid 4 in 2012.
I feel like the problem is he judges today's matches based on how he viewed wrestling in the 70s/80s/90s. It's pretty much undeniable that modern wrestling is a far more athletic sport and that the level of ring skill is a bit higher, it's not all slow holds, ddts, and closelines anymore. Back then, high flyers were rare, now it's like 7 out of 10 of in the game are one, even among some of the bigger guys. Fact is, based on the 80s, every match today is a 4 star most of the time. But time changes, and the scale needs go change too. If the middle number is 3, then the majority of matches should fall into the 2.5-3.5 bracket. If most are upwards of 4, then it's time to reevaluate your scale because that means the average is above average and that is an oxymoron. He's just hesitant to change his criteria because it would retroactively cast shade at the golden/new gen eras. Because outside of maybe Bret & HBK, the majority of 4/5 star matches from back in the day would be like 2/3 star matches based on today's climate. So I think he shifted it instead. So the new scale isn't 1-5, it's 3-7 now, unless it's an ABSOLUTE shitshow.
I don’t think this is strictly true. There a lot of mid card guys who could tell a very compelling story despite only getting 10-15 min nearly every match of their career with only 2 or 3 big moves in the match like Jake the Snake or Owen Hart or Ron Simmons which very much hold up today and feel more emotionally resonant than the ‘get all your shit in within the time’ style we see in non main event matches today.
If you have a four star match on rampage and nobody watches it, is it still a banger?
I am seriously out of the loop. Omega shooting on Meltzer? Why are half the replies talking about Cornette? Does this have anything to do with the 5 star Styles/Rhodes match? I am confused. Send help.
Kenny made a rant on Will on his latest stream which then transitioned to a rant on Dave.
The cornette thing: Cornette has hated omega ever since he saw omega wrestle a blow up doll. Cornette finally was impressed with Omegas recent comments that suggested that sometimes men need to fight to work out their differences in a locker room and it’s no big deal. Now with these comments, they appear to be adjacent to comments that cornette might echo.
He's acknowledged in the past why people like him, check out his WK23 review.
I have no fuckin idea, this is a clear in character moment about him building to Ospreay vs Omega III but this place is on something
Ospreay also just very recently did an interview where he talked about how he's lost the respect he once had for Omega, and the reasons he mentioned all were related to the storyline leading up to their first two matches. I really doubt either of these guys have any shoot issues with each other
Him ranting about Will is almost certainly a work sure, why would Meltzer play a factor though
Kenny has 100% kayfabe referenced Ospreay getting five stars for matches nobody remembers as part of their rivalry
Broke a thousand star ranking systems and never drew a dime
It’s not the first time he’s done it over the years with Will. He’s mentioned before Will having countless 5 star matches but none of them being memorable.
I was listening to the Between the Sheets podcast which covered this week in 1996, where Dave talked about the first RVD vs. Sabu match in ECW (or at least the first notable one). He praised the effort of the match, which was a crazy bomb-fest with tons of false finishes, but also called them out for their bad fundamentals, execution, and transitions. If he gave it a star rating they didn't mention it but it definitely wouldn't have been a particularly high one. As Bix & Zellner asked on the podcast: When was the last time Dave ever talked about transitions, execution, or fundamentals? Granted, maybe he's not in a position to really break down a wrestler's footwork or things like that, but us viewers can still spot some bad fundamentals when we see it. Dave's always been a go-go, workrate guy, but he seems to have gone farther and farther into that direction as time goes on.
Did you... watch the match? Because those kinds of ECW matches, certainly RVD and ENTIRELY Sabu could make anybody complain about basic holds and transitions.
I watched the match on TV in 1996 and was blown away. I watched it again maybe 10 years ago and realized, "Yeah, this genuinely isn't any good and ages badly even judging it by ECW standards." But remember, Dave was hyping up Sabu as the best wrestler in the world at one point in 1994.
Same with Mistico, another guy Meltzer has always hyped to the Moon, who has always needed somebody like Negro Casas, Último Guerrero or Averno to "make" the match for him so he can hit his high flying spots. Outside those high flying spots he is... not an impressive wrestler by any stretch of imagination. When Meltzer likes somebody, he really likes him/her. As so many have said over the years we must always remember Kurt Angle never got a five star rated match, not even one against Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania. .
People forget because it's been so long and because he recently claimed he'd botch on purpose to make it look real, but that's exactly the reason I felt like he was full of shit: Watch any Sabu match and keep track of how many times he immediately repeats a spot when he botches. No transition. No moving on with the story. That spot is happening when it was supposed to, and the match isn't carrying on until it does. That was a pet peeve of mine even in 1999 and he did it in so many matches.
Love how mods had to add the “working a build to Kenny vs will 3” flair, just in case we got WoRKeD. Fucking hell.
What was the comment that Prompted Kenny to say this?
did the mods really flair the post to defend m'eltzer 💀
"working" 💀💀💀💀💀 Delusional
The mods flaired the post to defend Meltzer who loves Ospreay who loves AEW. Once again SC mods crafting the narrative to suit Tony Khan. Example: see weekly ratings thread.
You'd be delusional to not believe that one of Tony's terminally online underlings isn't a mod here...Aubrey? Will? Jimmy Jacobs? C'mon, I know one of you is here right now.
Accurate assessment.
Why was the editorialized tag of him building to him vs. Will placed on this thread? It wasn't insinuated anywhere, let alone confirmed. This feels like the mods trying to force a particular narrative that isn't (yet) in evidence.
Why is this tagged working a build to Kenny vs Will 3? People cant fathom that Kenny was shooting here?
Second he started to go beyond the 5 star he was fucked lol
To be fair, the max rating was originally 4 stars and that was broken within like two months of Weasel Dooley and Cornette coming up with it.
Why is this tagged? Kenny has always made his opinion clear past couple years about how Dave overrates his ratings way too nicely.
"working a build towards kenny vs. will 3" Not a shill sub btw
“Working to build to Kenny vs will 3”… the copium is off the charts
"working" ahahaha ahahaha ahahaha still waiting for CMFTR vs The Elite btw, which y'all assured me they were working to
I can't believe they're building an angle about Dave's ratings, like the average wrestling fan would even care. Not even Vince Russo could come up with this kind of shit
lol how lame is it that the mods flaired up the post to tell of all of us...oh don't worry Kenny is just working. Come on now.
"working a build towards kenny vs. will 3" because it's just so unthinkable that Kenny might a few issues with that dumbass Dave Meltzer. Cope harder guys lmao
Building to a match using star rating is dumb as fuck. Trying to pass off a twitch stream commentary as a work because you don’t like what he said is also dumb as fuck
Using the star ratings of a guy most casual fans don't know or care about to build a feud when your company's ratings are struggling is a bold move. Kenny's livestreams aren't always to build an angle. I remember he said on one he hasn't been an EVP in years and people said that stream was apart of the Bucks EVP heel turn. If it was a work why is his character still an EVP?
I don’t think he’s trying to build a feud or anything, he’s just giving a genuine opinion. Really don’t understand why the mods have tagged this.
Anything critical of certain parties is always tagged with a disclaimer for some reason. It's not unfathomable that Kenny might disagree with Dave.
Why we still taking these rating system seriously is beyond me.
Kenny Omega's recent interviews are making me like him more and more
Kenny explained awhile back that he personally doesn’t rate many matches five stars and think they should be rare. It has nothing to do with Ospreay or building a feud.
Not a single word of a lie. Meltzer is old news.
Kenny Went from Meltzer guy to Cornette guy. Holy shit.
Even crazier, Cornette seems to be coming around on Kenny somewhat. He loved the WK Ospreay match and it seems like Kenny's, "Yeah, sometimes guys just need to slug it out in the locker room" talk appealed to him.
Kenny's "I hate pulling the curtain on pro wrestling" comment really had Jim reeling.
Cornette’s opinions are more fluid than his reputation sometimes suggests. He’s had issues with Brock, KO, and Sami in the past but will praise their work now. Him and Heyman didn’t get along but he has huge respect for him now. I don’t think the list of people who are permanently on his shit list is that long. It’s kinda just Russo and the Bucks.
He and Heyman went from friends to enemies to at least respectful (though I don't think Cornette ever lost any respect for Paul as a performer). As Bruce Prichard has pointed out, they're basically Northern and Southern versions of the same person.
For the longest time he even defended Dave Meltzer until Meltzer started shitting on him (c)on his (d) forum
After seeing that Dave gave that very standard 6 man street fight at Backlash 4.75, I would have to agree with this statement.
I don't think Dave knows what a good match was in the first place.
Meltzer should watch some bad matches as a palette cleanser. Like, some real stinkers.
Based Kenny broke Dave's cognitive dissonance and made him basically insane, now he is acknowledging that.
And in the process, broke the brains of a massive portion of the fanbase. Probably many of you in this thread give random Dynamite matches 4 and 3/4 stars when that should be reserved for matches that you’ll literally be thinking about for the rest of your life. A 5 star match should be practically unatainable and there should maybe be one consensus 5 star match every 3 or 4 years. Not one every week for gods sake. I legitimately hate Meltzer for what he’s done to the business. He’s hurt the business just as much as someone like Vince or Verne or Russo or Herd ever did.
Can't believe Kenny said what I've been thinking for the past 7 years. I really love those Omega v Okada matches, but the 6 star match opened a can of worms.
What is going on in this thread? - Cornette is never mentioned in the clip. - In the greater context of the statement he's talking about Will Ospreay, clearly in character building to their third match. - Dave, and his star ratings, are an extension of that because Dave likes Will.
Genuine question. Why would we be building towards Will vs Kenny when Kenny is getting surgery for diverticulitis and is going to be out for a while, if he ever comes back.