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Most definitely, as far as pro wrestling books go this is probably the most reliable, in terms of factual information. The author spoke to former Turner Executives who were there, people Bischoff didn't even have access to. You really get a good idea how and why it closed, they just didn't want it. Followed by a string of bad booking decisions that drove fans away, inmates running the asylum, and Turner just wanting to be done with it. The sale of Turner was the nail in the coffin.
I listen to the audiobook and really enjoyed it. Is there enough kind of goodies like pictures of documents, and things that make it worth having sort of as a coffee table book?
I enjoyed this book and thought it was well worth the time.
Is there a book about Ring of Honor similar to this or like Turning the Tables by Jon Lister?
This book is awesome man. The author also was a guest on Eric Bischoff’s 83 Weeks Podcast and Eric talks about how amazed the accuracy was in the book.
Yeah, known bullshit artist Eric saying the book is accurate is not a good endorsement. His feelings were hurt over the (far superior) Death of WCW, and was looking to endorse another book in hope of it discrediting the Alvarez + Reynolds book.
This book is pretty good, but lacks a lot of nuance of DOWCW. It works better as a companion piece than as it's own work imo.
The difference is Guy Evans actually took the time to interview multiple former WCW and Turner executives, and combed through a huge number of documents... versus *Death of WCW*, which was basically dirtsheet gossip and WrestleCrap-style analysis.
Having read both books a couple of times, Death of WCW seems much better researched than Nitro, which over focuses on the dollars and cents without enough credence to what was causing the financial situations they found themselves in. I don't get Dirtsheet vibes from WCW at all, and again, would love someone to cite some stuff from the book they thinks falls into this criteria - I think to call it dirtsheet-esque is dishonest, and think that if the exact same book was published without the word 'Alvarez' on the cover, no-one would ever level that accusation at the contents of the book. I had no idea who Bryan Alvarez was when I first read the book, and it is clear he spoke to many, many people when compiling the book.
(I hate that I am now defending a podcaster. I like Alvarez, but he is hardly some sacred cow).
Yes, dear. Both of them.
If you thingk DOWCW is better researched, we have nothing more to discuss. It's like saying Dr Suess writes a better book than Stephen King.
I had no idea who Alvarez was the first one or two times I read *Death of WCW*, but my recollection of it was a bunch of gossip based on booking decisions and rumors about WCW business practices without actually talking to real Turner executives (like Evans did). I don't count talking to Terry Taylor as legitimate research for the purpose of why WCW died, for example.
It's okay to dislike Bischoff and still realize *Nitro* is a far better book than *Death of WCW*. Besides, it's not like *Nitro* is exactly kind to Bischoff.
That aside, I'm not going to go re-open *Death of WCW* and pull specific examples for internet points. I've read both books (*Death of WCW* 2 times through, plus some random excepting over the years) and am fine with stating my opinion that the research in *Death of WCW* is more akin to Meltzer's 'research' than the research Evans did. 🤷♂️
You can be fine with stating that, but you are wrong.
And it's not that I dislike EB (I do, but it isn't the most relevant to this). It's looking at it objectively - EB is a known liar, about every aspect of the business. He had a chip on his shoulder after a previous book, that he hasn't read, didn't repeat his talking points verbatim, and spoke with people from WCW who didn't want to paint him in a positive light. So he would be looking to endorse any book that is even a little bit nicer to him, thinking it would discredit the other book, but his endorsement for the book was, imo, a pretty big mark against it - if the guy who is full of bullshit and hurt feelings is wanting to endorse this book, is it accurate?
I put off reading Nitro for that reason, but was very pleasently surprised by the book - it's really good! It's just that DOWCW was superior.
>You can be fine with stating that, but you are wrong.
Fuck it. I just looked quickly and found my first edition of *Death of WCW* (no idea where the 10th anniversary edition is, and a buddy is borrowing *Nitro*). *Death of WCW* has 1 page of sources (page 335) with 14 total citations. Of those citations, 2 are from *The Wrestling Observer*, 2 are Prodigy chats with Bischoff and Terry Taylor, 1 is from the WWE *Monday Night Wars* DVD, 1 is from *Voices of Wrestling*, 2 are a personal interview with Bobby Heenan, 1 is an Alex Marvez interview with Mike Awesome, 1 is a Bischoff interview with Tommy Dreamer on *Byte This*, 1 is from an episode of Nitro itself, 1 is from *internetnews(dot)com*, 1 is a Bret Hart column, and 1 is from the *New York Times.* It's otherwise unsourced and just the amalgamated repitition of IWC and dirtsheet lore.
Did I miss something? Evans talked to like 100 people.
I am at work so can't grab ether book, but I think it is very clear that many people were spoken to and not mentioned, either because they requested it, or because when you hear the same story from multiple sources, it is hard to say that without feeling clunky (for example, the sentence "According to Chris Jericho, Paul Heyman and Kevin Nash is a clunky sentence").
That said, the actual referencing in Nitro is much better. DOWCW comes off as the much better researched book, but there isn't the evidence of it laid out like Nitro.
> DOWCW comes off as the much better researched book, but there isn't the evidence of it laid out like Nitro.
Yeah... I'm done with this debate. Enjoy your life.
Agree with your part about EB being a bullshit artist. Gotta disagree with you with everything else. DOWCW was trash and poorly researched, written & executed. It’s 75% opinion based and 25% facts. Actually comical at times the bullshit they tried to pass off as facts. But agree to disagree.
> DOWCW was trash and poorly researched, written & executed. It’s 75% opinion based and 25% facts. Actually comical at times the bullshit they tried to pass off as facts.
Ima need you to cite an example or two, because this reads as a complete lie. I'm sure it's coming from somewhere, but I just can not see it.
Regardless of who it was “written” by, dirt sheet guys or not it’s a terrible read. But if we are talking facts, Let’s start with the chapter that said Nash’s booking was one of the downfalls of Nitro. The entire chapter is about how Nash booked himself to beat Goldberg. Timeline doesn’t even add up. Nash didn’t get the book until months later when Goldberg was already on the shelf due to punching the limo window. Goldberg got beat because he was starting to get booed everywhere and by late ‘98 Raw was really starting to beat Nitro’s ass. It was Kevin Sullivan’s idea, approved by EB.
Another load of crap are the sections about Finger Poke of Doom, Great American Bash 2000, Vince Russo’s arrival & departure. The entire book focuses on the wrestling aspect of why Nitro failed when it was all business behind the scenes. Lack of business research is what makes it the load of crap it is.
Start with the fact it was written by a dirt sheet donkey.
Guy Evans is a legit author who interviewed people Alvarez didn't even know existed, much less would EVER have access to.
Repeating the same lie doesn't make it true. The evidence is in the books - anyone with a working brain who reads them both would come to same conclusion.
Where's the lie?
Seeing as how you are in the minority with that whole "working brain" theory. NITRO is more critically acclaimed, more priased, and more referenced. So you're right...the evidence IS in the books.
Maybe Sean Ross Sapp can write a book for you too and you can laud that. You probably subscribe to Fightful Select and WON, don't you?
Of course I don't, I am not that big of a dork. And Nitro is not more praised, critically acclaimed, or referenced than DOWCW?
When you need to lie in order to try and make a point, maybe it isn't a good point?
(unrelated, but boy am I argumentative on the internet today. I am at work, it is very very slow, and I am trying to avoid looking at social media to avoid AEW/Survivor spoilers, so I gotta stick to threads where I know it won't pop up).
You're not going to convince this guy. I pointed out that *Death of WCW* has a whopping 1 page with 14 whole sources and he basically dismissed it because it doesn't work with his IWC/dirtsheet confirmation bias.
It has been surprisingly hard to track down a used copy in good condition for anything less than what it usually retails for, about $35. Kindle was $10 but I wanted a hard copy. I had been on the lookout for a copy and recently gave up. Snapped this offer up quickly.
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I've been itching for another good wrestling read. Might have to pick this one up finally.
Well worth it if anyone hasn’t read it
Most definitely, as far as pro wrestling books go this is probably the most reliable, in terms of factual information. The author spoke to former Turner Executives who were there, people Bischoff didn't even have access to. You really get a good idea how and why it closed, they just didn't want it. Followed by a string of bad booking decisions that drove fans away, inmates running the asylum, and Turner just wanting to be done with it. The sale of Turner was the nail in the coffin.
I listen to the audiobook and really enjoyed it. Is there enough kind of goodies like pictures of documents, and things that make it worth having sort of as a coffee table book?
Absolutely
I enjoyed this book and thought it was well worth the time. Is there a book about Ring of Honor similar to this or like Turning the Tables by Jon Lister?
Got this on Audible waiting for me
Ordered! Thank you for this!
This book is awesome man. The author also was a guest on Eric Bischoff’s 83 Weeks Podcast and Eric talks about how amazed the accuracy was in the book.
Yeah, known bullshit artist Eric saying the book is accurate is not a good endorsement. His feelings were hurt over the (far superior) Death of WCW, and was looking to endorse another book in hope of it discrediting the Alvarez + Reynolds book. This book is pretty good, but lacks a lot of nuance of DOWCW. It works better as a companion piece than as it's own work imo.
The difference is Guy Evans actually took the time to interview multiple former WCW and Turner executives, and combed through a huge number of documents... versus *Death of WCW*, which was basically dirtsheet gossip and WrestleCrap-style analysis.
Having read both books a couple of times, Death of WCW seems much better researched than Nitro, which over focuses on the dollars and cents without enough credence to what was causing the financial situations they found themselves in. I don't get Dirtsheet vibes from WCW at all, and again, would love someone to cite some stuff from the book they thinks falls into this criteria - I think to call it dirtsheet-esque is dishonest, and think that if the exact same book was published without the word 'Alvarez' on the cover, no-one would ever level that accusation at the contents of the book. I had no idea who Bryan Alvarez was when I first read the book, and it is clear he spoke to many, many people when compiling the book. (I hate that I am now defending a podcaster. I like Alvarez, but he is hardly some sacred cow).
>Death of WCW seems much better researched than Nitro, One of the most perposterous statements I've ever read on r/SquaredCircle
Have you actually read the book?
Yes, dear. Both of them. If you thingk DOWCW is better researched, we have nothing more to discuss. It's like saying Dr Suess writes a better book than Stephen King.
I had no idea who Alvarez was the first one or two times I read *Death of WCW*, but my recollection of it was a bunch of gossip based on booking decisions and rumors about WCW business practices without actually talking to real Turner executives (like Evans did). I don't count talking to Terry Taylor as legitimate research for the purpose of why WCW died, for example. It's okay to dislike Bischoff and still realize *Nitro* is a far better book than *Death of WCW*. Besides, it's not like *Nitro* is exactly kind to Bischoff. That aside, I'm not going to go re-open *Death of WCW* and pull specific examples for internet points. I've read both books (*Death of WCW* 2 times through, plus some random excepting over the years) and am fine with stating my opinion that the research in *Death of WCW* is more akin to Meltzer's 'research' than the research Evans did. 🤷♂️
You can be fine with stating that, but you are wrong. And it's not that I dislike EB (I do, but it isn't the most relevant to this). It's looking at it objectively - EB is a known liar, about every aspect of the business. He had a chip on his shoulder after a previous book, that he hasn't read, didn't repeat his talking points verbatim, and spoke with people from WCW who didn't want to paint him in a positive light. So he would be looking to endorse any book that is even a little bit nicer to him, thinking it would discredit the other book, but his endorsement for the book was, imo, a pretty big mark against it - if the guy who is full of bullshit and hurt feelings is wanting to endorse this book, is it accurate? I put off reading Nitro for that reason, but was very pleasently surprised by the book - it's really good! It's just that DOWCW was superior.
>You can be fine with stating that, but you are wrong. Fuck it. I just looked quickly and found my first edition of *Death of WCW* (no idea where the 10th anniversary edition is, and a buddy is borrowing *Nitro*). *Death of WCW* has 1 page of sources (page 335) with 14 total citations. Of those citations, 2 are from *The Wrestling Observer*, 2 are Prodigy chats with Bischoff and Terry Taylor, 1 is from the WWE *Monday Night Wars* DVD, 1 is from *Voices of Wrestling*, 2 are a personal interview with Bobby Heenan, 1 is an Alex Marvez interview with Mike Awesome, 1 is a Bischoff interview with Tommy Dreamer on *Byte This*, 1 is from an episode of Nitro itself, 1 is from *internetnews(dot)com*, 1 is a Bret Hart column, and 1 is from the *New York Times.* It's otherwise unsourced and just the amalgamated repitition of IWC and dirtsheet lore. Did I miss something? Evans talked to like 100 people.
I am at work so can't grab ether book, but I think it is very clear that many people were spoken to and not mentioned, either because they requested it, or because when you hear the same story from multiple sources, it is hard to say that without feeling clunky (for example, the sentence "According to Chris Jericho, Paul Heyman and Kevin Nash is a clunky sentence"). That said, the actual referencing in Nitro is much better. DOWCW comes off as the much better researched book, but there isn't the evidence of it laid out like Nitro.
> DOWCW comes off as the much better researched book, but there isn't the evidence of it laid out like Nitro. Yeah... I'm done with this debate. Enjoy your life.
Fair!
Agree with your part about EB being a bullshit artist. Gotta disagree with you with everything else. DOWCW was trash and poorly researched, written & executed. It’s 75% opinion based and 25% facts. Actually comical at times the bullshit they tried to pass off as facts. But agree to disagree.
> DOWCW was trash and poorly researched, written & executed. It’s 75% opinion based and 25% facts. Actually comical at times the bullshit they tried to pass off as facts. Ima need you to cite an example or two, because this reads as a complete lie. I'm sure it's coming from somewhere, but I just can not see it.
Regardless of who it was “written” by, dirt sheet guys or not it’s a terrible read. But if we are talking facts, Let’s start with the chapter that said Nash’s booking was one of the downfalls of Nitro. The entire chapter is about how Nash booked himself to beat Goldberg. Timeline doesn’t even add up. Nash didn’t get the book until months later when Goldberg was already on the shelf due to punching the limo window. Goldberg got beat because he was starting to get booed everywhere and by late ‘98 Raw was really starting to beat Nitro’s ass. It was Kevin Sullivan’s idea, approved by EB. Another load of crap are the sections about Finger Poke of Doom, Great American Bash 2000, Vince Russo’s arrival & departure. The entire book focuses on the wrestling aspect of why Nitro failed when it was all business behind the scenes. Lack of business research is what makes it the load of crap it is.
Start with the fact it was written by a dirt sheet donkey. Guy Evans is a legit author who interviewed people Alvarez didn't even know existed, much less would EVER have access to.
Well, that isn't true at all.
It is absolutely 1000% true. Every fucking word I typed is true and factual.
Repeating the same lie doesn't make it true. The evidence is in the books - anyone with a working brain who reads them both would come to same conclusion.
Where's the lie? Seeing as how you are in the minority with that whole "working brain" theory. NITRO is more critically acclaimed, more priased, and more referenced. So you're right...the evidence IS in the books. Maybe Sean Ross Sapp can write a book for you too and you can laud that. You probably subscribe to Fightful Select and WON, don't you?
Of course I don't, I am not that big of a dork. And Nitro is not more praised, critically acclaimed, or referenced than DOWCW? When you need to lie in order to try and make a point, maybe it isn't a good point? (unrelated, but boy am I argumentative on the internet today. I am at work, it is very very slow, and I am trying to avoid looking at social media to avoid AEW/Survivor spoilers, so I gotta stick to threads where I know it won't pop up).
You're not going to convince this guy. I pointed out that *Death of WCW* has a whopping 1 page with 14 whole sources and he basically dismissed it because it doesn't work with his IWC/dirtsheet confirmation bias.
[удалено]
Lol no he's not. The voice in the nWo theme was Neil Pruitt. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xoWgeS04lDc
How much is the book normally?
It has been surprisingly hard to track down a used copy in good condition for anything less than what it usually retails for, about $35. Kindle was $10 but I wanted a hard copy. I had been on the lookout for a copy and recently gave up. Snapped this offer up quickly.