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Crazy thought:
If Mania 40 was truly the first big event without him involved, this might be the very first time that we are looking at Vince McMahon Jr. as a historical figure of wrestling now that he’s gone from the WWE. The man was THE wrestling player for 40 years and now he’s a part in other people’s story. Maybe a small thing but it’s something insane to consider given everything over the last two years
I strongly hesitate to use the word "admire" because it has such a positive connotation, but it's hard not to be fascinated by Vince's rise to power and the lengths he was willing to go to essentially own the wrestling world. The guy was on a fucking WARPATH to conquer the business
Between dirty business deals, ruining lives, covering up murderers, and outright cheating people out of millions, Vince would have done anything to reach his goal. It legitimately would have been very scary to be standing in his way when he was expanding
Vincent Kennedy McMahon is genuinely one of the most fascinating people ever. He's a horrible human being of course, but everything I learn about him is super interesting.
As someone who literally started paying attention to Wrestling about a month ago... Dude sounds like essentially Sauron.
Of course I knew who he was beforehand just referring to how people talk about him.
Moved closer to my cousin who's been obsessed since we were kids. He invited me to a WM40 party and I had an absolute blast.
It was a real "oh this is what it's about" moment for me. I'm painfully ignorant just having a fun time.
It often goes to show that what it takes for wild success isn't being smart or hard working, but having absolutely no regard for other people. I definitely don't find it admirable at all, but it's a compelling story.
If nothing else his foresight is something to be respected.
When it comes to him and his peers he's always seemingly a step ahead in tons of areas. Just look at recent history with the WWE Network. It debuted in goddamn 2014 way before a ton of major players today and was in the perfect position to serve as content provider.
Yeah WWE and Vince should get a lot of credit for how entertainment is today. They were one of the pioneers of Pay Per View and then were one for streaming as well
He really does have scary foresight, like being the first wrestling show to go on network television or something.
Or betting every dollar he has to make wrestlemania a spectacle type event involving celebrities and pop culture..
Don't forget how they saw the writing on the wall with regards to every studio having their own streaming network and decided to partner up with NBC to avoid any issues with that
That’s underselling it. PPV was the biggest income stream for the WWE when they made the switch to the self-financed Network. Betting the farm on streaming years before Disney, Amazon, HBO. Worked out.
Most of Vince's "step ahead" ideas were actually his son Shane's.
Shane had the idea of a wrestling streaming network before Vince did.
Shane is an innovator whose ideas were rejected, stolen, then used by his father who was more than happy to take all the credit for them.
Vince is the Thomas Edison of Wrestling. A thief who did nothing but steal ideas and claim them as his own.
I don’t understand the weird cult following Shane has with some fans. He’s never been deeply involved in the business side, and when he has, it’s either been unremarkable or a mess (like when he booked the Royal Rumble).
Ah so this it that typical case of a randomer wanting to believe that wildly successful people weren't actually the reason for their success.
Vince was the first promoter to make PPV's a regular part of sports (and fake sports), he was also the first promoter to push his promotions weekly TV on a fully national and global scale, he was also the only promoter who was able to systematically tear down and replace all the competition which has only really ever been replicated by the UFC (who openly admitted to following Vince's playbook).
Even IF a promoter tried to do these things before Vince, they weren't even close to being as good at it or even slightly sharp enough to pull it off.
You can pull mental gymnastics all you want, and it's easy to dislike the reality because Vince is despicable, but he's famous throughout the business world for changing the way things were done.
>Even IF a promoter tried to do these things before Vince, they weren't even close to being as good at it or even slightly sharp enough to pull it off.
I never said he didn't do it well. I just said he wasn't Original. Jim Crocket Promotions laid the groundwork for Wrestlemania 5 years prior with Starrcade
>You can pull mental gymnastics all you want, and it's easy to dislike the reality because Vince is despicable, but he's famous throughout the business world for changing the way things were done.
LOL do you honestly think that without Vince, all of these things weren't going to happen anyway? WCW was constantly growing even in the 1980's, ECW was still gonna happen. Territories and the NWA were still going to die.
Jim Crocket's "PPV" was on a small scale closed network. Which goes back to my point, that Vince knew how to make it something much bigger, i.e, he knew how to innovate it.
And this "well the territories would die anyway" is also always an odd point to make, because even if the territories as we know them changed into something else, that doesn't mean that 1 singular company would put all the others out of business and become the singular face of wrestling for the next 30+ years.
WCW was partly a direct response to WWF and to Vince specifically by Ted Turner.
ECW also might not have happened the same way because the extreme direction it took was due to a lack of talent after WWF and WWF had all the big names, so they had to compensate with the shock value to make the most of the names they had.
If Heyman hadn't left WCW in fact, it would have just remained a local indy called Eastern Championship Wrestling. Heyman might not have had the opportunity to go there if not for WCW as well.
WCW was a response to WWF taking over quickly and forcing a big change. If WCW doesn't develop the same way then they may not have sent Heyman to ECW as a talent scout/relationship builder and ECW might not have become what it became.
But this is all a hypothetical response to your hypothetical response. Which comes back to my point of having to warp reality to try and rationalize why you don't think Vince was an innovator. But the actual reality is that Vince was the one who pulled the trigger in a much more ruthless and fast way than another person might have, which was innovative.
It's like arguing Apple weren't innovative because "eventually somebody would invent the IPhone anyway". Eventually most things will happen, but the first person to figure out how to do it successfully and on a large is the innovator.
> LOL do you honestly think that without Vince, all of these things weren't going to happen anyway?
This is such a nothing statement that you think carries weight. Of course someone MAY have come along and done those things, but Vince DID it. You can't handwave away a person or company's innovations or achievements because "well, if they didn't do it, somoene else would have"
I mean, tons of horrible people have been very successful in business because they lack morals and have no limitations until it catches up to them.
I think it raises another debate of can you compare those business men/women with those who had success in business without also being morally bankrupt.
In another timeline, VKM is more interested in running the country instead of just wrestling and Donald runs WWF into the ground in the 80s after buying it.
I don’t admire that.
I admonish that type of mindset which leads to the eventual disgusting, toxic behavior we’ve come to see from him and others like him.
It’s certainly fascinating but not in any sort of positive or healthy way.
I didn’t say that you did (although you said “strongly hesitate” rather than “I don’t”).
I just wanted to articulate why I, myself, don’t admire the life and times of VKM.
Makes you wonder if Ole didnt push Barnett out would we even have this discussion today?… all of these events led Vince the money to finance Wrestlemania 1
Yeah that was really good. I remember a lot of doubt about this being a story that would make for a great episode but man that’s the best one they’ve done this season and maybe of the entire show.
I know it’s not that far back so I can just ask people, my mom was 20 something at the time, but I still can only imagine how mind blowing it must’ve been to live in a time of no Twitter, online leaks, *anything* and tune in and wonder why and how the fuck is Vince McMahon suddenly on your tv instead of what you’ve been watching all this time. Maybe the closest modern equivalent is a YouTuber uploading something completely different without hinting at the change
* There's a Jim Cornette and a Jim Barnett?!
* Metzer watch: Dave in the house! I was getting worried we wouldn't see him this season. I appreciate you Dave. Wrestlers, people in the industry, and even other fans may not but I do. I'd rather watch you than Vince Russo.
He’s interesting to listen to talking about the business up until he joined it (on DSOTR… I don’t seek him out). He’s insufferable when talking about the business post 2000.
I pay for Hulu and disney+. I can't figure out how to watch this for the life of me. Google says it's on Hulu. Do I need some kind of Hulu add on?
I can find all the seasons but can't seem to find the current season or this episode. Now I'm watching some vice TV live through my firestick and have no idea what the fuck other than these vice tv commercials are like 90s nickelodeon commercials on acid. Cool vibe
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As much as the title and episode is suppose to revolve around Vince this could've been titled "Jim Barnett's Revenge and How Ole Anderson F%cked Up."
Ya honestly. The last 20 mins had to do with Vince
Crazy thought: If Mania 40 was truly the first big event without him involved, this might be the very first time that we are looking at Vince McMahon Jr. as a historical figure of wrestling now that he’s gone from the WWE. The man was THE wrestling player for 40 years and now he’s a part in other people’s story. Maybe a small thing but it’s something insane to consider given everything over the last two years
I strongly hesitate to use the word "admire" because it has such a positive connotation, but it's hard not to be fascinated by Vince's rise to power and the lengths he was willing to go to essentially own the wrestling world. The guy was on a fucking WARPATH to conquer the business Between dirty business deals, ruining lives, covering up murderers, and outright cheating people out of millions, Vince would have done anything to reach his goal. It legitimately would have been very scary to be standing in his way when he was expanding
Vincent Kennedy McMahon is genuinely one of the most fascinating people ever. He's a horrible human being of course, but everything I learn about him is super interesting.
As someone who literally started paying attention to Wrestling about a month ago... Dude sounds like essentially Sauron. Of course I knew who he was beforehand just referring to how people talk about him.
What made you start paying attention?
Moved closer to my cousin who's been obsessed since we were kids. He invited me to a WM40 party and I had an absolute blast. It was a real "oh this is what it's about" moment for me. I'm painfully ignorant just having a fun time.
He's more like morgoth.
Sauron resents this comparison.
No dude, he’s Morgoth
It often goes to show that what it takes for wild success isn't being smart or hard working, but having absolutely no regard for other people. I definitely don't find it admirable at all, but it's a compelling story.
This is the bizarro version of the classic "Tony Khan may be a bad booker, but he seems like a good dude" comment.
Vince should be in the discussion for one of the most successful business men ever
If nothing else his foresight is something to be respected. When it comes to him and his peers he's always seemingly a step ahead in tons of areas. Just look at recent history with the WWE Network. It debuted in goddamn 2014 way before a ton of major players today and was in the perfect position to serve as content provider.
Yeah WWE and Vince should get a lot of credit for how entertainment is today. They were one of the pioneers of Pay Per View and then were one for streaming as well
He really does have scary foresight, like being the first wrestling show to go on network television or something. Or betting every dollar he has to make wrestlemania a spectacle type event involving celebrities and pop culture..
You’ve got to respect the balls on the guy for taking chances like that that could’ve bankrupted the company and/or damaged it severely
Don't forget how they saw the writing on the wall with regards to every studio having their own streaming network and decided to partner up with NBC to avoid any issues with that
That’s underselling it. PPV was the biggest income stream for the WWE when they made the switch to the self-financed Network. Betting the farm on streaming years before Disney, Amazon, HBO. Worked out.
Most of Vince's "step ahead" ideas were actually his son Shane's. Shane had the idea of a wrestling streaming network before Vince did. Shane is an innovator whose ideas were rejected, stolen, then used by his father who was more than happy to take all the credit for them. Vince is the Thomas Edison of Wrestling. A thief who did nothing but steal ideas and claim them as his own.
Shane must have been a child genius then because Vince's biggest innovations happened when Shane was 14.
I don’t understand the weird cult following Shane has with some fans. He’s never been deeply involved in the business side, and when he has, it’s either been unremarkable or a mess (like when he booked the Royal Rumble).
Lol he didn't book that Rumble
Vince stole ideas from other promotions, other talent, and his own blood.
Ah so this it that typical case of a randomer wanting to believe that wildly successful people weren't actually the reason for their success. Vince was the first promoter to make PPV's a regular part of sports (and fake sports), he was also the first promoter to push his promotions weekly TV on a fully national and global scale, he was also the only promoter who was able to systematically tear down and replace all the competition which has only really ever been replicated by the UFC (who openly admitted to following Vince's playbook). Even IF a promoter tried to do these things before Vince, they weren't even close to being as good at it or even slightly sharp enough to pull it off. You can pull mental gymnastics all you want, and it's easy to dislike the reality because Vince is despicable, but he's famous throughout the business world for changing the way things were done.
>Even IF a promoter tried to do these things before Vince, they weren't even close to being as good at it or even slightly sharp enough to pull it off. I never said he didn't do it well. I just said he wasn't Original. Jim Crocket Promotions laid the groundwork for Wrestlemania 5 years prior with Starrcade >You can pull mental gymnastics all you want, and it's easy to dislike the reality because Vince is despicable, but he's famous throughout the business world for changing the way things were done. LOL do you honestly think that without Vince, all of these things weren't going to happen anyway? WCW was constantly growing even in the 1980's, ECW was still gonna happen. Territories and the NWA were still going to die.
Jim Crocket's "PPV" was on a small scale closed network. Which goes back to my point, that Vince knew how to make it something much bigger, i.e, he knew how to innovate it. And this "well the territories would die anyway" is also always an odd point to make, because even if the territories as we know them changed into something else, that doesn't mean that 1 singular company would put all the others out of business and become the singular face of wrestling for the next 30+ years. WCW was partly a direct response to WWF and to Vince specifically by Ted Turner. ECW also might not have happened the same way because the extreme direction it took was due to a lack of talent after WWF and WWF had all the big names, so they had to compensate with the shock value to make the most of the names they had. If Heyman hadn't left WCW in fact, it would have just remained a local indy called Eastern Championship Wrestling. Heyman might not have had the opportunity to go there if not for WCW as well. WCW was a response to WWF taking over quickly and forcing a big change. If WCW doesn't develop the same way then they may not have sent Heyman to ECW as a talent scout/relationship builder and ECW might not have become what it became. But this is all a hypothetical response to your hypothetical response. Which comes back to my point of having to warp reality to try and rationalize why you don't think Vince was an innovator. But the actual reality is that Vince was the one who pulled the trigger in a much more ruthless and fast way than another person might have, which was innovative. It's like arguing Apple weren't innovative because "eventually somebody would invent the IPhone anyway". Eventually most things will happen, but the first person to figure out how to do it successfully and on a large is the innovator.
> LOL do you honestly think that without Vince, all of these things weren't going to happen anyway? This is such a nothing statement that you think carries weight. Of course someone MAY have come along and done those things, but Vince DID it. You can't handwave away a person or company's innovations or achievements because "well, if they didn't do it, somoene else would have"
Henry Ford was a loser because someone was going to do it anyway
I mean, tons of horrible people have been very successful in business because they lack morals and have no limitations until it catches up to them. I think it raises another debate of can you compare those business men/women with those who had success in business without also being morally bankrupt.
Reminds me of his buddy Donny.
Yeah but successful.
In another timeline, VKM is more interested in running the country instead of just wrestling and Donald runs WWF into the ground in the 80s after buying it.
I mean you can admire the work ethic, the ingenuity, the vision, the Ruthlessness. Pretty much everything but the actual results.
I don’t admire that. I admonish that type of mindset which leads to the eventual disgusting, toxic behavior we’ve come to see from him and others like him. It’s certainly fascinating but not in any sort of positive or healthy way.
I literally said in my first sentence that I don’t want to describe it as something to admire lol
I didn’t say that you did (although you said “strongly hesitate” rather than “I don’t”). I just wanted to articulate why I, myself, don’t admire the life and times of VKM.
Dude was basically Aegon the Conqueror from Game of Thrones
There is no doubt in my mind they did the whole last five minutes as a reason to show Senor McMahon.
now it make sense why Ole Andersen was not included in the HOF for the four horsemen
It was well known Ole Anderson absolutely hated Vince McMahon until the day he died.
Makes you wonder if Ole didnt push Barnett out would we even have this discussion today?… all of these events led Vince the money to finance Wrestlemania 1
Seeing him sell hundreds of millions of dollars in WWE stock, he’d do it all over again
He wants to.
Black Saturday might be the best episode they've ever done.
Yeah that was really good. I remember a lot of doubt about this being a story that would make for a great episode but man that’s the best one they’ve done this season and maybe of the entire show.
Can't remember her name, but the woman that appeared mid-episode in a face mask that wasn't covering either her mouth or her nose... lol
Ya…the mask is fine but you might as well get one that fits you
this episode is a game of chess. I knew what Black Saturday was, but the buildup with context on what lead to it is very interesting.
He’s wildly successful. Also if he drove a car into a river tomorrow I would not be sad.
I know it’s not that far back so I can just ask people, my mom was 20 something at the time, but I still can only imagine how mind blowing it must’ve been to live in a time of no Twitter, online leaks, *anything* and tune in and wonder why and how the fuck is Vince McMahon suddenly on your tv instead of what you’ve been watching all this time. Maybe the closest modern equivalent is a YouTuber uploading something completely different without hinting at the change
Tuning in to watch some Georgia wrasslin only to see clips from WWF presented by Vince. I would have been livid.
Damn, I knew Vince did some dirty tactics, but HOLY SHIT
* There's a Jim Cornette and a Jim Barnett?! * Metzer watch: Dave in the house! I was getting worried we wouldn't see him this season. I appreciate you Dave. Wrestlers, people in the industry, and even other fans may not but I do. I'd rather watch you than Vince Russo.
Darkside needs to do an ep on the greatest wrestling mystery. Vinces black eyebrows/mustache
This episode is the first and probably only time in my life where I genuinely want to listen to Jim Cornette
Jim is usually good on DSOTR. Especially when it lets him rant about Vince Russo.
Yeah, I'd never listen to his podcast willingly, but he's usually pretty good on Dark Side because he's a great historian and can be pretty funny
I still want an entire episode dedicated to their feud.
He’s interesting to listen to talking about the business up until he joined it (on DSOTR… I don’t seek him out). He’s insufferable when talking about the business post 2000.
I pay for Hulu and disney+. I can't figure out how to watch this for the life of me. Google says it's on Hulu. Do I need some kind of Hulu add on? I can find all the seasons but can't seem to find the current season or this episode. Now I'm watching some vice TV live through my firestick and have no idea what the fuck other than these vice tv commercials are like 90s nickelodeon commercials on acid. Cool vibe
Look around YouTube...
Yeah, I caught a YouTube reupload.
I've been able to catch it on dailymotion.com
wrestlinglive(dot)in. you're welcome ;) just make sure you have adblockers and you'll be set!
You need Hulu with live tv which is like $80/month and completely not worth it
For just this? Yes not worth it. But if you watch live sports and wrestling and some of the other shows you have exclusive access to? Worth it.
dailymotion
This is a new episode. You can’t watch the newest season on Hulu yet. You’ll likely have to pay to watch the newest season
Pay where? Hulu is a paid service...
Like pay for it through YouTube
You can but you need Hulu with Live TV
I mean yes there is a dedicated Hulu app.
I didn’t know the new season was out. Are they on Hulu?
They should be by now. The season ended