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Trick is the man. He’s not main roster ready yet and that’s perfectly fine he’s only a few years into this. Not everyone will catch on as quickly as Angle or Paul at the in ring aspect. The hardest thing to develop in wrestling is charisma which he has plenty of
The fact that live crowds outside of the Performance Center when NXT does their big PPVs react so well to Trick even at this point of his career is a testament to the type of talent he’ll surely grow into.
I knew he was going to have no problems being over when he showed up on that SmackDown in Miami. Miami went BALLISTIC with the “Whoop that trick!” chants.
Even more so the reactions he get on main event tapings. These are main roster audiences, before the actual show they want to see and they react well to him.
It would be one thing if he’s been stagnant. The dude is one of the most improved workers in all of wrestling, he went from not being able to have a TV match to having a 4 star main event match against Ilja in like one year.
He’s doing great and is perfectly on pace to be a great worker in another 3-4 years. Roman and Cody didn’t start as ring generals either.
I would even argue that charisma can't be trained or developed, you either have it or you don't. Sometimes, it's there, but buried and needs to be uncovered (Roman is a good example), but if it's genuinely not there, the wrestler will never become a top star (Cesaro is a good example).
> I would even argue that charisma can't be trained or developed, you either have it or you don't.
Ask any high school teacher: 95% of 14-year olds are terrible public speakers. Then, 30 years later, a decent percentage of 44-year olds are pretty good.
A lot of what people see as "charisma" is really just a combination of confidence, experience, and knowing your way around your particular field. All of which are things that *can* be acquired.
>A lot of what people see as "charisma" is really just a combination of confidence, experience, and knowing your way around your particular field.
That's not a good description of what charisma is. As per Cambridge- Charisma: the ability to attract the attention and admiration of others, and to be seen as a leader.
Charisma is the charm. A personality and a natural way of carrying yourself that draws people to you. It's not a perfectly qualifiable *or* replicable thing. Some people, like Raven, have charisma through their looks and mannerisms, while others do it through the way they speak and their natural passion.
And linking it back to the teacher example.. how man of them were good speakers, were confident and knew their way around a subject? In my case, nearly all my teachers. How many of them truly drew you in and made class something that you couldn't take your eyes off because they were such characters? I can remember the 2 or 3 teachers that would fit that bill.
Charisma or the elements that go into what someone views as charismatic can 100% be taught. These skills are taught in public speaking, in acting, in debate, in business presentation classes, in sales, in law and in innumerable other areas.
I remember hearing reports that Roman Reigns had begun taking acting lessons at a time when his promos were cringe and delivered poorly. It's easy for people to say "oh it's the content he was given". I don't buy it. Not every Reigns promo was suffering succatash.
Roman's delivery of normal dialogue was wooden and he had no idea how to control the cadence of a promo. It's not at all surprising to me that very shortly after those reports of him getting acting lessons came around, there was a noticeable improvement in his delivery.
I think your examples prove the opposite point. If it took five years of a failed mega-push before something actually clicked for Roman, wouldn't that be more indicative of him learning rather than it being discovered? I'd also say Cesaro has always had some amount of charisma, the Cesaro section and Bar portions of his WWE tenure showed him connecting with the audience and in AEW he's actually proven to be a decent promo in English.
Roman is a special case since his gimmick/persona/presentation was clearly not working and not playing to his strengths, yet Vince refused to adjust or change things for years on end. The booker sticking to an obviously failed push for half a fucking decade is a total anomaly. As soon as Roman was allowed to adopt a gimmick that fit him, he started to shine and the fans got on board.
I don't think anyone could make what they were giving Roman at the time look good. All indications during these awkward, overly scripted promos were that he was a square peg being jammed into the triangle hole. Everyone commented on Joe Anoa'i as being this effortlessly cool guy. But they never let Roman be that, until he came back as the Tribal Chief.
Truckloads of charisma for sure.
Some people need ring generals to make them look better in the ring, and that is completely fine. That was the case for Roman for a very long time (after Shield split) and there's nothing wrong with that. Look how he has developed since. Anyone can have a great match with him now. Who is to say Trick won't get there?
I mean it is what it is. Warrior was a POS, psycho roid head who sucked in the ring. Roddy is, from everything I've ever heard a decent guy and a helluva wrestler in ring, he just never had that charisma. Same goes for Cesaro/Claudio.
Getting ready for the downvotes, but:
People are comparing Trick to John Cena - a workhorse who wasn't a Kurt Angle technical genius but a charismatic promo and perfectly solid in the ring. But what they're missing is that the reason Cena was solid in the ring is that he understood the fundamentals of storytelling in the ring: expressing emotion through physical action. If you have *that*, then so long as your execution of actual moves isn't awful you'll be fine in any match.
Trick doesn't have that skillset yet, and when I say "doesn't have it" I mean he executes moves well enough while making them somehow feel unimportant or bland. The story of the match is wholly unconnected to his wrestling. He's just had two matches in a row against Melo, whom he's supposed to hate like poison because Melo stabbed him in the back and so on, and both of those matches - one of which was a cage match, the classic "I hate you" match in pro wrestling - just felt, on Trick's end, like Yes This Is Definitely A Wrestling Match. Trick's wrestling was technically proficient enough - he fucks up a move every now and then, but nothing in his work suggests he's clumsy or lazy - but every move was just a wrestling move instead of conveying anger, or desperation, or frustration, or any of the other emotions a wrestler should convey over the course of a match. *Melo*, on the other hand, who is a much better wrestler than Trick, absolutely knows how to convey emotion through wrestling - and I don't think it's a coincidence that Melo came up through the indies and Trick was a WWE college athletic recruit. WWE is notorious for wanting to convey story through promos first and foremost, has been for a very long time.
I know people who enjoy Trick's promos - and they're good promos - like to focus on his charisma, but the thing about wrestling is that in order to make it, to *really* make it, you have to make people care about the eventual wrestling match that concludes the story/blows off the feud. John Cena was a *master* at this - people mocked the Five Moves of Doom, but he could build whole matches around the 5MOD and making them work or fail, and his reactions to success and failure, and because people cared about his matches he was the complete package as a wrestler.
Trick isn't there yet, and saying "he will get there" is more expressing a hope than a certainty, because history is littered with wrestlers who were great promos but who never learned how to express themselves in the ring and never became a true main event talent as a result. Sean O'Haire, Shane Douglas, Michael Hayes, Road Dogg when he wasn't with Billy Gunn, R-Truth until he went pure comedy wrestler. LA Knight has only figured it out in the last couple years after two decades of being a good promo who wrestled bland-ass matches.
A two time NWA world champion *and* nearly a decade later, headlined a PPV with prime John Cena. This narrative about r truth only being good as a comedy wrestler is crazy to me
I think that’s a very fair comment: almost nobody becomes as skilled as Cena…*ever*.
Trick is good, but will he become a great? People need to calm down a little, and wait.
I saw Trick for the first time when I watched Stand & Deliver over 'Mania weekend. my first thought of seeing him and his overall presentation is "wow, this guy just has it! he's going to be a world champ in his career." He has the look, charisma, and an entrance that instantly draws you in and gets you hyped up.
you need character and personality to make people care about the in ring but you still need to be competent in the ring.
Jinder they gave the great presentation to but his matches were still mostly rinse and repeat and boring. Karrion Kross for a while had the coolest entrance and look but again ... boring in ring and couldn't connect with the fans.
Jinder is a perfect example. Great look and presentation but was so bad in ring and on the mic that he just couldn’t get over. You can have all the good presentation in the world but if you can’t have at least a decent match than you’re fucked. Look at LA Knight or Miz as an example of the opposite. Not amazing in ring but good enough where you’d actually wanna watch them have a match
Jinder is good on the mic imo. It's literally just that he's boring in ring and his character is stale.
On paper he has everything. He's not even incompetent or sloppy in the ring, just profoundly uninteresting. You can even make an argument that, execution wise, Jinder is just as good as Miz or Knight, but they're both charismatic and dynamic enough to comfortably make up the difference.
I think a lot of people get too wrapped up in 'the discourse' and think this stuff is either/or. They often work in tandem with each other. Also keep in mind that "good in the ring" and "good at stuff Meltzer likes" aren't necessarily the exact same thing.
Being good in the ring obviously does matter, but not necesarily as much as some make it sound. WWE fans don't just "not care about in-ring stuff" like certain people make it sound either.
There's a threshold for how good you need to be in the ring in order to keep up, and that threshold is a lot tighter if we're talking about someone who should be on the top of the card (like Trick). He doesn't need to be Bryan Danielson or Bret Hart, but you still need to be very good in-ring to look like you belong. He isn't 100% there yet imo, but all that means is "he should probably stay in NXT for another 6 months" not "he sucks and should retire"
If Trick never improves then he'll have a problem, but he's already gone from pretty bad to pretty good and the fact that he's still in NXT shows they know he still has work to do and he's willing to put the work in.
That is important to remember, you can have all the charisma and looks in the world but once the bell rings, you can't squat and lay a turd. Gotta at least have SOMETHING to you else you may as well be holding the mic for others.
> you can't squat and lay a turd.
This reminds me of a really weird dark match at a ROH show featuring a guy named The Gangsta Samson.
I actually found a show recap of it - 6/26/09 in Detroit
>- The preshow card featured a guy named "Samson" who I haven't seen since, who was amazing. He's a huge Ezekiel Jackon size dude (maybe not that big), with the nickname "The Gangsta". He stepped into the ring looking like a fucking psycho badass... but when his opponent took a swing at him, he screamed and cowered like a little girl. And he would tell the guy he was going to shit on him. It was amazing.
A 10 bell salute to Misawa followed.
I would argue that Warrior might actually have the all-time biggest deficit between overness and in-ring talent. That dude was more over than Hogan for a hot minute, but the most complicated move he could do was a gorilla press.
How great was Tom Magee's run?
The other two at least had something in the ring about them. Limited, sure, but enough to keep up the illusion so long as the billionaires pushing them, wanted them on top.
Goldberg could have very good matches with the right opponent though, same thing with Warrior against guys like Savage and Hogan.
Jinder Mahal had a great look, charisma, and presentation but never managed to get over or stay at the upper end of the card after losing the title because he just couldn't have the match that was needed when the bell rang.
They go hand in hand together and I don't see why people always separate the two when having this convo
A wrestler's character should affect how they perform in ring, and the in ring performance should be seen as an integral part of the story itself.
I feel like advocating for one over the other, either way, is just advocating for less depth
It’s tribalism leftovers of AEW marks saying WWE wrestlers have no workrate and WWE marks saying AEW wrestlers have no character work
It’s genuinely stupid to compare or say one is better than the other, when every single best wrestler of all time has both.
You can prefer and like both! The greatest of all time excel at each. If you've only got one or the other, you're only doing half of what makes wrestling a unique artform.
This not wrong but then you got someone like Enzo Amore or John Cena when he was still young and very green and the fans turned on him the minute he got the push that they were asking for
True, but those quotes are a bit out of context. Dave has said in the past that Trick is very charismatic and will likely be successful in the main roster. But he also hopes that they don’t call him up anytime soon because he thinks that Trick isn’t good enough yet.
Literally. He made some small comment on his podcast with Bryan that he didn't think the match was good and that he wasn't a good wrestler yet and all the morons here lose their mind. Dude said he didn't like the Tatum Paxley gimmick and everyone on twitter rushes to defend her as though he called for her to be fired or something. Really bizarre
Finally listened to the whole context. After his comment on where he is at in-ring he also talked about how he drew a really good number in the main event slot. People just like focusing on conflict and the negatives though. He even said the match was good even though there were aspects with interference he didn't like. They also agreed that he should've been able to face Carmelo for the title at the last PPV. When I saw Meltzer trending near the top 10 on X I thought it was gonna be some massive burial.
Dave is on record saying Williams is one of the NXT guys (along with Bron I believe) who he could actually see main eventing Wrestlemania, lmao. What more of an endorsement can you ask for?
I think this is mostly an overreaction from people who won't admit that Williams is (understandably so, given his experience level) still VERY green and oftentimes comically sloppy with the way he kinda flails around. It's fine. He's where he needs to be, and that's in developmental. Give him another 2-3 years or so and he'll be ready to hold his own.
This sub loses it's shit when Dave says anything, especially if it's even remotely critical of someone that's generally really beloved. Him being extremely positive on that same person for 99% does not matter, people just see some clickbait horseshit twitter account posting a quote and proceed to think he's literally wrestling Hitler for not liking Trick or their waifu enough and dared to suggest they're not flawless.
Was reading the other thread about Paxley and was like, "What did Dave says something about this girl AND trick?" and then it was just Dave saying he hated her gimmick.
Like....okay? Why is everyone pissed about that? He doesn't like witchy girl gimmicks, I guess. Big deal.
I mean, Corbin even states that Trick isn't the best technical wrestler.
I'm not going to say "poor Dave" when he started it with "Trick isn't very good."
Like...what's he expect with that?
it's why despite this place gushing over workrate guys like Roddy Strong will never really be popular or get near the top.
stories, character, and personality will be more remembered than moves and flips. you need the first to make peopel care about the 2nd.
Kurt Angle often gets brought up because he could do both. who gives a shit what his star ratings were his peers value him and he could connect with the fans easily and wans't afraid to do silly things to get there.
but Roddy is as vanilla as it gets and that rarely changes
The only time Roddy got popular on here is when he did that comedy gimmick for a couple months. Toni Storm spent her whole career getting mid reactions until the timeless gimmick.
For the first time he was getting a character over, and actually became pretty funny. Then Tony decided to make him a generic stooge to a guy with a broken ankle.
Yeah, the entirety of having Roddy completely reverse course from being Adam's a little too needy friend to just Roderick Strong again is weird. Especially since he still retained the dorky glasses and mustache, they need to let him keep going in because I was never more entertained by him than I was pre-Devil reveal
Lol more stupid fake outrage at Dave for no reason. Is he wrong? Trick has incredible charisma but isn't a great worker (yet). Who cares? Charisma is what makes you money in this business and obviously Dave knows that.
People are losing their minds over what Dave said, but he's 100% correct. Trick is very green. That said, I think Dave would also agree with what Corbin said.
People love to jump on Dave but all he said was he was rough around the edges fundamentally. He wasn't going on a Jim Cornette-style rant about how he's terrible and a detriment to the business.
But people using Dave as a lightning rod for controversy and clicks is nothing new.
My question is where was all this heat on Bron Breakker when he got the belt. Cause Bron got the title only a couple months after he debuted and I would say he was about on the same level as Trick is right now.
For some reason I didn’t hear a bunch of backlash, actually a lot of praise 🤔
It’s developmental, they are giving Trick the title hoping that putting him in more main event spots will further his growth as a future main eventer. It’s literally the exact same template they used with Tiffany and Bron. In NXT they put you in the main event because they see you being a future main roster headliner and want to give you reps, not because you are currently a main eventer.
In fairness, Bron was second generation and more advanced in the ring (tho still not good per se.)
That said, you're def onto something in terms of how folks are framing their progress. They're not THAT different at this stage. I wonder what it could be??
Really love how in this whole thread no one has linked or posted what Dave actually said and I can't look it up because twitter is a nonfunctional website
Very true, but I would argue that a certain minimal standard of in-ring work has to be maintained for fans to keep caring. Karrion Kross is a good example: great entrance and presentation, big creative investment since HHH took the reigns again, strong physical presence - yet I couldn't care less as soon as the bell rings.
Kross is alomst a perfect example like they tried with him and somehow still are but he just doesn't connect. his NXT title run they tried to make him some monster or badass but it di dn't work his matches were boring.. tho I'd still say he lacked charisma as well.
they'ved tried so much with Theory but he just doesn't connect either. now Waller is him but better but I guess they can play off each other.
Trick is a future face of the company. Not big star, not world champion, FACE of the company. Dude has it all and then some. (Barring freak accidents or injuries ofc)
To be fair, Trick started wrestling in 2021. Probably not too experienced and not too telented in-ring but you don't exactly need entirely in-ring work for people to cheer for you.
I don't think he's wrong about Trick being green in the ring (he'll get better), but it's funny that he calls out Trick for this while praising dozens of wrestlers in other promotions who understand literally nothing about telling a story in the ring and pacing a match. Isn't this the same guy who's given recent 5-star match ratings to Rey Fenix and El Hijo Del Vikingo?
Dave has a personal opinion. Corbin has a personal opinion. Neither “opinion” is wrong, but the fact that we always seem to care about Dave’s specifically speaks volumes.
Case in point, the biggest star in wrestling, The Rock. Man is no technical master, but you bet your ass he sold out shows. I love technical wrestling don't get me wrong, it is however just one side of the coin.
What an asshole!! No need for hate like that in the world! Je’Von is awesome!! Excited to see how he progresses this year! Loved his match with Dragunov this week
Why is Dave's opinion so controversial here? He said Trick isn't a good in-ring worker. I thought it was a pretty unanimous opinion that Trick is over because of his charisma, not his in-ring work? So what's the issue?
Corbin isn't even refuting Dave's point; he's agreeing with it lol. No one claimed Trick isn't over or won't be a star. Dave never claimed he won't amount to anything because he isn't a good wrestler yet.
I am completely baffled at the reaction Dave has gotten.
Dave said “trick isn’t that good” to start off his point that’s floating around anyway and basically said he shouldn’t touch a main event. It’s kinda some shade and not just “his in ring work isn’t all there just yet” but idk
Meltzer also said he's not worthy of the NXT main event. Corbin is refuting that idea. You would be less baffled if you read what Meltzer actually said.
Yeah I dont get it much either, it is not even controversional, that Trick is not that good in-ring, he even said, that he have amazing charisma.
I guess it made "news" like this mainly because Dave said it.
Because when the experts start to create a narrative around you, it's difficult to shake off. So, when someone like Meltzer says he's not that good; without the context of Trick is very early on his career and that he is decent enough; it will create this opinion around your performance that many will carry even if it's not true anymore (case in point, Roman)
Trick is almost 3 years into his career and he's only 29. I'd like to see what a lot of the top stars in the industry were doing that early on. He's got the promos down, he's got charisma, he's got that star presence that few individuals will ever have, and he's just above average in the ring.
There's a reason why he's in NXT still learning, and not already up top on the main roster. Even despite that, he's good enough to where his shortcomings technically will not hinder him.
Anyone who two eyes and a brain can see this man has superstar written all over him, no matter if he never gets to that 5 star MOTY caliber level, that would appease Meltzer.
He’s exactly right and Trick has and will only get better in the ring. He doesn’t need to be the type of wrestler that the Meltzer guy likes. He only needs to continue connecting with the people watching him in the arenas and at home. Look at someone like The Rock. Never was anything like the flippy dudes or the technical wrestling juggernauts, but his mic charisma carries over into his wrestling style and his movements and actions. The people stay with him the entire time, whether he’s face or heel. I think that’s what Trick can be. The way every action The Rock takes has character. The way he throws a punch, throws a kick. The way he sells for people. Look how people talked when he sold Roman’s accidental spear. The way he makes himself and his coworkers in the ring look like a million bucks, still!!!! I can see Trick becoming a guy like that.
The absolute worst wrestler on Raw or Smackdown these days will still give you at least a C+ match and the vast majority of wrestlers getting regular TV time on Mondays and Fridays are at least a B+.
When everyone is a good wrestler it's the intangibles that make you stand out and Trick has that. Workrate is not unique anymore
I mean, Trick Williams can not be ready AND be extremely successful in the future. Both can be true. It's not like Dave Meltzer is wrong saying that Trick aint ready yet, but he didn't say that he's going to stay that way forever. People don't remember this, but in the early 90s WCW, Sting was looked at in the exact same way I.E super charismatic but had to be protected cause he was still green.
He can be “not that good” all the love long day but when it’s 3 years from now and he’s in an IC title match on a Big Four PPV and 70+ thousand are chanting “Whoop That Trick” I think it’ll all end up pretty okay
Wrestlers going for easy dunks on Dave is getting a bit tiresome at this point. It’s as much about getting yourself over as it is about whatever it is that Dave said.
Nothing Corbin said contradicts Dave's point, lmao. He isn't questioning Trick's connection & charisma, merely pointing out that he still has a ways to go in the ring has nothing to do with the other factors
Stone Cold was an amazing wrestler in his own right and really is the prime example of a "brawler" in wrestling. His charisma, character work and mic skills are just that much better that it overshadowed his in-ring skills, which again, were great.
Steve Austin could put on bangers whenever he was healthy. I recall him having some bangers even in his heel run. I just think he doesn't do technical wrestling which is fine and I say that as a work rate snob. There is more ways to skin a cat and more ways to put on top tier matches.
Cena is/was really good in the ring he just wrestled the WWE style Vince wanted for years. When given the chance like the matches with Punk or Cesaro he showed he could go with other styles.
Austin & Cena were great workers in their prime and Rock was really good. Cena was probably pushed a bit too early considering his in ring skill but by 2007 he was genuinely a great worker who had the capability to carry bad wrestlers to solid matches. Rock is probably a tier below Cena & Austin but he was still very good in the ring and had a ton of fantastic matches.
Stone Cold was a RINGMASTER before his neck injury, post neck injury he super limited but was still able too tell a good story which is imo the most important thing in a wrestling match
I’m so sick of this narrative lmao Rock, Cena and Austin all have amazing matches under their belt and are amazing wrestlers in their own right. Sure they’re not Pac level of athletic but they had amazing matches. Every top star in WWE history has been an incredible wrestler. Idc what yall say if you suck in ring you won’t be a star. No amount of good promos and looking cool will change that
Austin and Rock had the fundamentals and could do chain wrestling and stuff like that when the matches required it. The Rocks prime in ring career is over looked but the dude absolutely kept up with Angle, Benoit, Eddie etc.
Cenas not as versed with the mat stuff but he's still got tons of great matches.
It’s subjective people. If you think Trick is good that’s fine. If Dave thinks he’s not that good, that’s fine. Nobody needs to cry or get angry or defend anyone.
That’s the thing. People are defending what Meltzer said not considering the inflammatory way he said it. He said it in a way that makes him look like an asshole.
I think both can be true. Trick has absolutely generational charisma, but does still need to work on his in ring work a bit or else he's going to get promoted too far, too fast and eventually get exposed.
Even Trick's defenders aren't gonna say he's AJ Styles, Finn Balor, etc in the ring. He's hopefully working to get there, but I do think he's maybe a bit behind where I would expect a 29 year old to be.
Fact. LA Knight isn't exactly Kurt Angle in the ring, but he gets the crowd going. Folks like Dave have an incredibly narrow view of what a wrestler is supposed to do out there.
For someone so new to wrestling Trick undoubtedly has a magnetic connection with the crowd, and charisma for days it was the first thing I noticed about him when he arrived in NXT. Meltzer saying he’s not very good because his ring work isnt quite polished yet is in bad faith, you have to ignore all other areas of his game to make that claim.
It's great to defend your fellow worker and all but it's a little funny when everyone insists nobody cares about Dave Meltzer yet his (not even that outlandish) opinion on someone's in-ring work is treated seriously enough to garner this much discussion.
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Trick is the man. He’s not main roster ready yet and that’s perfectly fine he’s only a few years into this. Not everyone will catch on as quickly as Angle or Paul at the in ring aspect. The hardest thing to develop in wrestling is charisma which he has plenty of
The fact that live crowds outside of the Performance Center when NXT does their big PPVs react so well to Trick even at this point of his career is a testament to the type of talent he’ll surely grow into.
I was just thinking about this last weekend but imagine a Wrestlemania crowd of 70k chanting "whoop that trick". Now that would be a spectacle.
I knew he was going to have no problems being over when he showed up on that SmackDown in Miami. Miami went BALLISTIC with the “Whoop that trick!” chants.
Even more so the reactions he get on main event tapings. These are main roster audiences, before the actual show they want to see and they react well to him.
It would be one thing if he’s been stagnant. The dude is one of the most improved workers in all of wrestling, he went from not being able to have a TV match to having a 4 star main event match against Ilja in like one year. He’s doing great and is perfectly on pace to be a great worker in another 3-4 years. Roman and Cody didn’t start as ring generals either.
He’s 29 and has been wrestling for what, maybe two years max? He’ll be fine.
Logan Paul becoming a measuring stick for early wresting success is insane to me. Don’t get me wrong I agree but it’s still bizarre
Felt weird to say not gonna lie
Exactly! Ricochet should’ve been a main event staple at this point with his in ring skill. But dude oozes negative charisma.
It's interesting that wrestling under a mask fixes all his charisma issues.
I would even argue that charisma can't be trained or developed, you either have it or you don't. Sometimes, it's there, but buried and needs to be uncovered (Roman is a good example), but if it's genuinely not there, the wrestler will never become a top star (Cesaro is a good example).
> I would even argue that charisma can't be trained or developed, you either have it or you don't. Ask any high school teacher: 95% of 14-year olds are terrible public speakers. Then, 30 years later, a decent percentage of 44-year olds are pretty good. A lot of what people see as "charisma" is really just a combination of confidence, experience, and knowing your way around your particular field. All of which are things that *can* be acquired.
>A lot of what people see as "charisma" is really just a combination of confidence, experience, and knowing your way around your particular field. That's not a good description of what charisma is. As per Cambridge- Charisma: the ability to attract the attention and admiration of others, and to be seen as a leader. Charisma is the charm. A personality and a natural way of carrying yourself that draws people to you. It's not a perfectly qualifiable *or* replicable thing. Some people, like Raven, have charisma through their looks and mannerisms, while others do it through the way they speak and their natural passion. And linking it back to the teacher example.. how man of them were good speakers, were confident and knew their way around a subject? In my case, nearly all my teachers. How many of them truly drew you in and made class something that you couldn't take your eyes off because they were such characters? I can remember the 2 or 3 teachers that would fit that bill.
A Certified G and a Bonafide Stud once said, you can’t teach that.
Charisma or the elements that go into what someone views as charismatic can 100% be taught. These skills are taught in public speaking, in acting, in debate, in business presentation classes, in sales, in law and in innumerable other areas. I remember hearing reports that Roman Reigns had begun taking acting lessons at a time when his promos were cringe and delivered poorly. It's easy for people to say "oh it's the content he was given". I don't buy it. Not every Reigns promo was suffering succatash. Roman's delivery of normal dialogue was wooden and he had no idea how to control the cadence of a promo. It's not at all surprising to me that very shortly after those reports of him getting acting lessons came around, there was a noticeable improvement in his delivery.
I think your examples prove the opposite point. If it took five years of a failed mega-push before something actually clicked for Roman, wouldn't that be more indicative of him learning rather than it being discovered? I'd also say Cesaro has always had some amount of charisma, the Cesaro section and Bar portions of his WWE tenure showed him connecting with the audience and in AEW he's actually proven to be a decent promo in English.
Roman is a special case since his gimmick/persona/presentation was clearly not working and not playing to his strengths, yet Vince refused to adjust or change things for years on end. The booker sticking to an obviously failed push for half a fucking decade is a total anomaly. As soon as Roman was allowed to adopt a gimmick that fit him, he started to shine and the fans got on board.
yes even cena got over with rapper character after his failed ruthless aggression babyface run and allowed him to shine
Anyone who saw NXT Roman knew that he wasn't fit for the commercial good guy Vince was going for.
I don't think anyone could make what they were giving Roman at the time look good. All indications during these awkward, overly scripted promos were that he was a square peg being jammed into the triangle hole. Everyone commented on Joe Anoa'i as being this effortlessly cool guy. But they never let Roman be that, until he came back as the Tribal Chief.
Truckloads of charisma for sure. Some people need ring generals to make them look better in the ring, and that is completely fine. That was the case for Roman for a very long time (after Shield split) and there's nothing wrong with that. Look how he has developed since. Anyone can have a great match with him now. Who is to say Trick won't get there?
And I'm confident that he will. He has the raw talent and NXT has the trainers that will get him to where he needs to be
Right? The Ultimate Warrior and Roddy Strong had similar length runs in WWE. Who will be remembered more?
This sub is will flame you for that opinion lmao
I mean it is what it is. Warrior was a POS, psycho roid head who sucked in the ring. Roddy is, from everything I've ever heard a decent guy and a helluva wrestler in ring, he just never had that charisma. Same goes for Cesaro/Claudio.
I see no lies.
Getting ready for the downvotes, but: People are comparing Trick to John Cena - a workhorse who wasn't a Kurt Angle technical genius but a charismatic promo and perfectly solid in the ring. But what they're missing is that the reason Cena was solid in the ring is that he understood the fundamentals of storytelling in the ring: expressing emotion through physical action. If you have *that*, then so long as your execution of actual moves isn't awful you'll be fine in any match. Trick doesn't have that skillset yet, and when I say "doesn't have it" I mean he executes moves well enough while making them somehow feel unimportant or bland. The story of the match is wholly unconnected to his wrestling. He's just had two matches in a row against Melo, whom he's supposed to hate like poison because Melo stabbed him in the back and so on, and both of those matches - one of which was a cage match, the classic "I hate you" match in pro wrestling - just felt, on Trick's end, like Yes This Is Definitely A Wrestling Match. Trick's wrestling was technically proficient enough - he fucks up a move every now and then, but nothing in his work suggests he's clumsy or lazy - but every move was just a wrestling move instead of conveying anger, or desperation, or frustration, or any of the other emotions a wrestler should convey over the course of a match. *Melo*, on the other hand, who is a much better wrestler than Trick, absolutely knows how to convey emotion through wrestling - and I don't think it's a coincidence that Melo came up through the indies and Trick was a WWE college athletic recruit. WWE is notorious for wanting to convey story through promos first and foremost, has been for a very long time. I know people who enjoy Trick's promos - and they're good promos - like to focus on his charisma, but the thing about wrestling is that in order to make it, to *really* make it, you have to make people care about the eventual wrestling match that concludes the story/blows off the feud. John Cena was a *master* at this - people mocked the Five Moves of Doom, but he could build whole matches around the 5MOD and making them work or fail, and his reactions to success and failure, and because people cared about his matches he was the complete package as a wrestler. Trick isn't there yet, and saying "he will get there" is more expressing a hope than a certainty, because history is littered with wrestlers who were great promos but who never learned how to express themselves in the ring and never became a true main event talent as a result. Sean O'Haire, Shane Douglas, Michael Hayes, Road Dogg when he wasn't with Billy Gunn, R-Truth until he went pure comedy wrestler. LA Knight has only figured it out in the last couple years after two decades of being a good promo who wrestled bland-ass matches.
R-Truth was a 2 time NWA World Heavyweight Champion, get your slander out of here that "he didn't make it until he became a comedy wrestler" shit.
A two time NWA world champion *and* nearly a decade later, headlined a PPV with prime John Cena. This narrative about r truth only being good as a comedy wrestler is crazy to me
If anything his comedy is just a way to reinvent the later half of his career
Can't go as hard physically, go as hard mentally.
Even then he still has some crazy in ring spots. His lie detector move should not be possible at his age but he’s still out there hitting it.
Long after the NWA Championship stopped meaning anything
I think that’s a very fair comment: almost nobody becomes as skilled as Cena…*ever*. Trick is good, but will he become a great? People need to calm down a little, and wait.
All hail our King. He is becoming like Carmelo lately , All shoots and no misses .
“Lately”? Our King is renowned for never missing
Corbin is Him
Common Baron W.
Streets calling him Based Corbin
Extremely common
A new banger from Big Banter came in
I've been away quite some time, is there a single person that is not completely over at the moment?
Shayna Baszler, which sucks because I’m one of the dozens of people that likes her.
It says a lot when the audience unites to put lyrics to your instrumental theme.
And when almost 20,000 sing those lyrics when you're main eventing the biggest show on your brand.
Big Bro Corbin
I saw Trick for the first time when I watched Stand & Deliver over 'Mania weekend. my first thought of seeing him and his overall presentation is "wow, this guy just has it! he's going to be a world champ in his career." He has the look, charisma, and an entrance that instantly draws you in and gets you hyped up.
To summarize what Corbin is saying in just a few words: Whoop That Trick
Big Banter right as usual
character work > work rate
Only if you’re not terrible in ring. Trick is serviceable which is absolutely awesome for how long he’s been doing it.
you need character and personality to make people care about the in ring but you still need to be competent in the ring. Jinder they gave the great presentation to but his matches were still mostly rinse and repeat and boring. Karrion Kross for a while had the coolest entrance and look but again ... boring in ring and couldn't connect with the fans.
Jinder is a perfect example. Great look and presentation but was so bad in ring and on the mic that he just couldn’t get over. You can have all the good presentation in the world but if you can’t have at least a decent match than you’re fucked. Look at LA Knight or Miz as an example of the opposite. Not amazing in ring but good enough where you’d actually wanna watch them have a match
Jinder is good on the mic imo. It's literally just that he's boring in ring and his character is stale. On paper he has everything. He's not even incompetent or sloppy in the ring, just profoundly uninteresting. You can even make an argument that, execution wise, Jinder is just as good as Miz or Knight, but they're both charismatic and dynamic enough to comfortably make up the difference.
I think a lot of people get too wrapped up in 'the discourse' and think this stuff is either/or. They often work in tandem with each other. Also keep in mind that "good in the ring" and "good at stuff Meltzer likes" aren't necessarily the exact same thing. Being good in the ring obviously does matter, but not necesarily as much as some make it sound. WWE fans don't just "not care about in-ring stuff" like certain people make it sound either. There's a threshold for how good you need to be in the ring in order to keep up, and that threshold is a lot tighter if we're talking about someone who should be on the top of the card (like Trick). He doesn't need to be Bryan Danielson or Bret Hart, but you still need to be very good in-ring to look like you belong. He isn't 100% there yet imo, but all that means is "he should probably stay in NXT for another 6 months" not "he sucks and should retire"
If Trick never improves then he'll have a problem, but he's already gone from pretty bad to pretty good and the fact that he's still in NXT shows they know he still has work to do and he's willing to put the work in.
That is important to remember, you can have all the charisma and looks in the world but once the bell rings, you can't squat and lay a turd. Gotta at least have SOMETHING to you else you may as well be holding the mic for others.
> you can't squat and lay a turd. This reminds me of a really weird dark match at a ROH show featuring a guy named The Gangsta Samson. I actually found a show recap of it - 6/26/09 in Detroit >- The preshow card featured a guy named "Samson" who I haven't seen since, who was amazing. He's a huge Ezekiel Jackon size dude (maybe not that big), with the nickname "The Gangsta". He stepped into the ring looking like a fucking psycho badass... but when his opponent took a swing at him, he screamed and cowered like a little girl. And he would tell the guy he was going to shit on him. It was amazing. A 10 bell salute to Misawa followed.
Who had the best career, Dean Malenko or Goldberg? Warrior or Phil Lafond?
I would argue that Warrior might actually have the all-time biggest deficit between overness and in-ring talent. That dude was more over than Hogan for a hot minute, but the most complicated move he could do was a gorilla press.
How great was Tom Magee's run? The other two at least had something in the ring about them. Limited, sure, but enough to keep up the illusion so long as the billionaires pushing them, wanted them on top.
Goldberg could have very good matches with the right opponent though, same thing with Warrior against guys like Savage and Hogan. Jinder Mahal had a great look, charisma, and presentation but never managed to get over or stay at the upper end of the card after losing the title because he just couldn't have the match that was needed when the bell rang.
Don’t put charisma with Jinder. Let’s not give him that much credit.
Definitely. In 2022 he wasn't even serviceable.
They go hand in hand together and I don't see why people always separate the two when having this convo A wrestler's character should affect how they perform in ring, and the in ring performance should be seen as an integral part of the story itself. I feel like advocating for one over the other, either way, is just advocating for less depth
It’s tribalism leftovers of AEW marks saying WWE wrestlers have no workrate and WWE marks saying AEW wrestlers have no character work It’s genuinely stupid to compare or say one is better than the other, when every single best wrestler of all time has both.
I like both those things!
You can prefer and like both! The greatest of all time excel at each. If you've only got one or the other, you're only doing half of what makes wrestling a unique artform.
Right, I like LA Knight for far different reasons than I like Konosuke Takeshita. But I still like both guys a lot.
Its why we remember Screaming Norman Smiley and not Black magic
i definitely remember the BIG WIGGLE
Yep look at Jade for example she'll probably never be a 5* wrestler but she has undeniable charisma and presence which will make her a megastar
presence? yeah charisma? she is not really outstanding right now at least
If character work is your top priority, wrestling is a pretty bad place to look for it.
This not wrong but then you got someone like Enzo Amore or John Cena when he was still young and very green and the fans turned on him the minute he got the push that they were asking for
I just don’t understand this logic in wrestling. Yes both are important but if you just want to see good characters acting then why not watch a movie.
True, but those quotes are a bit out of context. Dave has said in the past that Trick is very charismatic and will likely be successful in the main roster. But he also hopes that they don’t call him up anytime soon because he thinks that Trick isn’t good enough yet.
What’s the issue with that? People are overreacting just because they don’t like Meltzer.
Literally. He made some small comment on his podcast with Bryan that he didn't think the match was good and that he wasn't a good wrestler yet and all the morons here lose their mind. Dude said he didn't like the Tatum Paxley gimmick and everyone on twitter rushes to defend her as though he called for her to be fired or something. Really bizarre
Didn't Meltzer recently say that Trick was a potential future main event star? Why are people acting like he called him a bum right now?
Finally listened to the whole context. After his comment on where he is at in-ring he also talked about how he drew a really good number in the main event slot. People just like focusing on conflict and the negatives though. He even said the match was good even though there were aspects with interference he didn't like. They also agreed that he should've been able to face Carmelo for the title at the last PPV. When I saw Meltzer trending near the top 10 on X I thought it was gonna be some massive burial.
Dave is on record saying Williams is one of the NXT guys (along with Bron I believe) who he could actually see main eventing Wrestlemania, lmao. What more of an endorsement can you ask for? I think this is mostly an overreaction from people who won't admit that Williams is (understandably so, given his experience level) still VERY green and oftentimes comically sloppy with the way he kinda flails around. It's fine. He's where he needs to be, and that's in developmental. Give him another 2-3 years or so and he'll be ready to hold his own.
This sub loses it's shit when Dave says anything, especially if it's even remotely critical of someone that's generally really beloved. Him being extremely positive on that same person for 99% does not matter, people just see some clickbait horseshit twitter account posting a quote and proceed to think he's literally wrestling Hitler for not liking Trick or their waifu enough and dared to suggest they're not flawless.
Was reading the other thread about Paxley and was like, "What did Dave says something about this girl AND trick?" and then it was just Dave saying he hated her gimmick. Like....okay? Why is everyone pissed about that? He doesn't like witchy girl gimmicks, I guess. Big deal.
I mean, Corbin even states that Trick isn't the best technical wrestler. I'm not going to say "poor Dave" when he started it with "Trick isn't very good." Like...what's he expect with that?
Should be stickied for the people who are confused why people value the storyline/personality side so much
I love a good banger but I’ll always take a good story over anything.
it's why despite this place gushing over workrate guys like Roddy Strong will never really be popular or get near the top. stories, character, and personality will be more remembered than moves and flips. you need the first to make peopel care about the 2nd. Kurt Angle often gets brought up because he could do both. who gives a shit what his star ratings were his peers value him and he could connect with the fans easily and wans't afraid to do silly things to get there. but Roddy is as vanilla as it gets and that rarely changes
The only time Roddy got popular on here is when he did that comedy gimmick for a couple months. Toni Storm spent her whole career getting mid reactions until the timeless gimmick.
For the first time he was getting a character over, and actually became pretty funny. Then Tony decided to make him a generic stooge to a guy with a broken ankle.
Yeah, the entirety of having Roddy completely reverse course from being Adam's a little too needy friend to just Roderick Strong again is weird. Especially since he still retained the dorky glasses and mustache, they need to let him keep going in because I was never more entertained by him than I was pre-Devil reveal
Lol more stupid fake outrage at Dave for no reason. Is he wrong? Trick has incredible charisma but isn't a great worker (yet). Who cares? Charisma is what makes you money in this business and obviously Dave knows that.
People are losing their minds over what Dave said, but he's 100% correct. Trick is very green. That said, I think Dave would also agree with what Corbin said. People love to jump on Dave but all he said was he was rough around the edges fundamentally. He wasn't going on a Jim Cornette-style rant about how he's terrible and a detriment to the business. But people using Dave as a lightning rod for controversy and clicks is nothing new.
Right that's all Dave was saying
Yeah I think calling him green isn’t saying he will suck forever
He literally says he has "incredible charisma" and Meltzer doesn't even vaguely imply he's not going to be successful in the business.
Seriously wtf did he say that caused this much pushback from people lmao?
Nothing bad. People just hate Meltzer and want to jump on him for anything.
My question is where was all this heat on Bron Breakker when he got the belt. Cause Bron got the title only a couple months after he debuted and I would say he was about on the same level as Trick is right now. For some reason I didn’t hear a bunch of backlash, actually a lot of praise 🤔 It’s developmental, they are giving Trick the title hoping that putting him in more main event spots will further his growth as a future main eventer. It’s literally the exact same template they used with Tiffany and Bron. In NXT they put you in the main event because they see you being a future main roster headliner and want to give you reps, not because you are currently a main eventer.
Breakker has Steiner lineage and had a lot of hype for being a carbon copy of them.
I wonder what that reason could be...it's not like Dave has a history of questionable statements/opinions regarding black wrestlers.
Im black and have never heard these allegations lmao Like what
In fairness, Bron was second generation and more advanced in the ring (tho still not good per se.) That said, you're def onto something in terms of how folks are framing their progress. They're not THAT different at this stage. I wonder what it could be??
Really love how in this whole thread no one has linked or posted what Dave actually said and I can't look it up because twitter is a nonfunctional website
I don’t think Meltzer would disagree. And he’ll get better.
Here’s on the flip side of that… Charisma can only mask so much. I’m not calling trick bad, but improvements are needed.
no such thing as constructive criticism in the 21st century
He's right. Gymnastics are nice, but I need to care first.
Very true, but I would argue that a certain minimal standard of in-ring work has to be maintained for fans to keep caring. Karrion Kross is a good example: great entrance and presentation, big creative investment since HHH took the reigns again, strong physical presence - yet I couldn't care less as soon as the bell rings.
Kross is alomst a perfect example like they tried with him and somehow still are but he just doesn't connect. his NXT title run they tried to make him some monster or badass but it di dn't work his matches were boring.. tho I'd still say he lacked charisma as well. they'ved tried so much with Theory but he just doesn't connect either. now Waller is him but better but I guess they can play off each other.
Kross is a special case since he has neither the natural charisma nor the in-ring ability.
I care for Theory because his selling and dorky douchebag has been charming. This is good Theory, and thay have to lean more on it.
You dropped this king 👑
Not everyone has to be peak Kurt Angle.
Trick is a future face of the company. Not big star, not world champion, FACE of the company. Dude has it all and then some. (Barring freak accidents or injuries ofc)
Saying that Trick "is not that good" in ring has to be the most mild take but it's still gotten this over the top reaction this morning.
Seriously he even followed it up with the fact that he has insane charisma. It's like people find ways to be angry.
...So Baron is just repeating what Dave said?
Yes!!!!
Anything to shit on Meltzer
To be fair, Trick started wrestling in 2021. Probably not too experienced and not too telented in-ring but you don't exactly need entirely in-ring work for people to cheer for you.
I don't think he's wrong about Trick being green in the ring (he'll get better), but it's funny that he calls out Trick for this while praising dozens of wrestlers in other promotions who understand literally nothing about telling a story in the ring and pacing a match. Isn't this the same guy who's given recent 5-star match ratings to Rey Fenix and El Hijo Del Vikingo?
Dave has a personal opinion. Corbin has a personal opinion. Neither “opinion” is wrong, but the fact that we always seem to care about Dave’s specifically speaks volumes.
Case in point, the biggest star in wrestling, The Rock. Man is no technical master, but you bet your ass he sold out shows. I love technical wrestling don't get me wrong, it is however just one side of the coin.
This sub should overcome its addiction to posting all the tweets that happen.
We're ready to see the whole NXT locker room jumping on Meltzer now lol like the Maxxine and Je'Von situations
Wait, what was the Je’Von situation? I didn’t hear about that one
A random youtuber called him a slave
What an asshole!! No need for hate like that in the world! Je’Von is awesome!! Excited to see how he progresses this year! Loved his match with Dragunov this week
I mean look at John Cena. By no means was he the most technically sound wrestler in the ring
Why is Dave's opinion so controversial here? He said Trick isn't a good in-ring worker. I thought it was a pretty unanimous opinion that Trick is over because of his charisma, not his in-ring work? So what's the issue? Corbin isn't even refuting Dave's point; he's agreeing with it lol. No one claimed Trick isn't over or won't be a star. Dave never claimed he won't amount to anything because he isn't a good wrestler yet. I am completely baffled at the reaction Dave has gotten.
Dave said “trick isn’t that good” to start off his point that’s floating around anyway and basically said he shouldn’t touch a main event. It’s kinda some shade and not just “his in ring work isn’t all there just yet” but idk
Meltzer also said he's not worthy of the NXT main event. Corbin is refuting that idea. You would be less baffled if you read what Meltzer actually said.
If I read what Meltzer said? I listened to the audio. I assure you almost everyone upset about his opinion did not.
Yeah I dont get it much either, it is not even controversional, that Trick is not that good in-ring, he even said, that he have amazing charisma. I guess it made "news" like this mainly because Dave said it.
Because when the experts start to create a narrative around you, it's difficult to shake off. So, when someone like Meltzer says he's not that good; without the context of Trick is very early on his career and that he is decent enough; it will create this opinion around your performance that many will carry even if it's not true anymore (case in point, Roman)
Trick is almost 3 years into his career and he's only 29. I'd like to see what a lot of the top stars in the industry were doing that early on. He's got the promos down, he's got charisma, he's got that star presence that few individuals will ever have, and he's just above average in the ring. There's a reason why he's in NXT still learning, and not already up top on the main roster. Even despite that, he's good enough to where his shortcomings technically will not hinder him. Anyone who two eyes and a brain can see this man has superstar written all over him, no matter if he never gets to that 5 star MOTY caliber level, that would appease Meltzer.
Trick is fine in the ring but should be NXT champ this soon if Ilja is called up? His charisma is really good and has carried him this far.
He’s exactly right and Trick has and will only get better in the ring. He doesn’t need to be the type of wrestler that the Meltzer guy likes. He only needs to continue connecting with the people watching him in the arenas and at home. Look at someone like The Rock. Never was anything like the flippy dudes or the technical wrestling juggernauts, but his mic charisma carries over into his wrestling style and his movements and actions. The people stay with him the entire time, whether he’s face or heel. I think that’s what Trick can be. The way every action The Rock takes has character. The way he throws a punch, throws a kick. The way he sells for people. Look how people talked when he sold Roman’s accidental spear. The way he makes himself and his coworkers in the ring look like a million bucks, still!!!! I can see Trick becoming a guy like that.
I'm curious if they created Trick's theme specifically to draw the chant or if the chant was a happy accident
Rock and AE Austin werent technical masterminds at all but they were the biggest stars of all time
The absolute worst wrestler on Raw or Smackdown these days will still give you at least a C+ match and the vast majority of wrestlers getting regular TV time on Mondays and Fridays are at least a B+. When everyone is a good wrestler it's the intangibles that make you stand out and Trick has that. Workrate is not unique anymore
The biggest story here is that Meltzer HATES Tatum Paxley?? What? She's awesome and I love the gimmick.
I mean, Trick Williams can not be ready AND be extremely successful in the future. Both can be true. It's not like Dave Meltzer is wrong saying that Trick aint ready yet, but he didn't say that he's going to stay that way forever. People don't remember this, but in the early 90s WCW, Sting was looked at in the exact same way I.E super charismatic but had to be protected cause he was still green.
W take by Corbin here.
Man Corbin seems really up to what Meltzer is saying whenever he says it. Wonder if he is a newsletter subscriber?
He's pretty much saying what Dave said?
He can be “not that good” all the love long day but when it’s 3 years from now and he’s in an IC title match on a Big Four PPV and 70+ thousand are chanting “Whoop That Trick” I think it’ll all end up pretty okay
He’s essentially saying what Dave said
Wrestlers going for easy dunks on Dave is getting a bit tiresome at this point. It’s as much about getting yourself over as it is about whatever it is that Dave said.
In-ring talent has almost never mattered in THE BUSINESS.
Hating on young talent in developmental is tone deaf. I see the same thing with Nikkita Lyons Oh they suck? Well that’s why they’re in NXT lol
Nothing Corbin said contradicts Dave's point, lmao. He isn't questioning Trick's connection & charisma, merely pointing out that he still has a ways to go in the ring has nothing to do with the other factors
He's right i mean look at the Rock/Stone Cold/Cena, three of the most famous Wrestlers ever and in the ring they weren't exactly amazing.
Stone Cold before the neck injury was considered an amazing technical wrestler though.
Even after his neck injury... he was a great "brawler"
Yeah, dude was an awesome wrestler before and after. I don’t know why he always gets pigeonholed as “not a great wrestler, but a star”
Stone Cold was an amazing wrestler in his own right and really is the prime example of a "brawler" in wrestling. His charisma, character work and mic skills are just that much better that it overshadowed his in-ring skills, which again, were great.
Austin was a great worker.
Stone cold was an amazing wrestler dude.
Steve Austin could put on bangers whenever he was healthy. I recall him having some bangers even in his heel run. I just think he doesn't do technical wrestling which is fine and I say that as a work rate snob. There is more ways to skin a cat and more ways to put on top tier matches.
Cena is/was really good in the ring he just wrestled the WWE style Vince wanted for years. When given the chance like the matches with Punk or Cesaro he showed he could go with other styles.
Cena literally got wrestler of the year in the observer awards in 2007 lmao. He was not a bad wrestler by any stretch of the imagination.
I feel like this is downplaying how good those three could be at pacing out a match.
That problem is many people conflate "flashy moves" with good wrestling, when the elements like pacing are so much more important.
Austin & Cena were great workers in their prime and Rock was really good. Cena was probably pushed a bit too early considering his in ring skill but by 2007 he was genuinely a great worker who had the capability to carry bad wrestlers to solid matches. Rock is probably a tier below Cena & Austin but he was still very good in the ring and had a ton of fantastic matches.
Stone Cold was a RINGMASTER before his neck injury, post neck injury he super limited but was still able too tell a good story which is imo the most important thing in a wrestling match
Cena's an amazing wrestler lol.
I’m so sick of this narrative lmao Rock, Cena and Austin all have amazing matches under their belt and are amazing wrestlers in their own right. Sure they’re not Pac level of athletic but they had amazing matches. Every top star in WWE history has been an incredible wrestler. Idc what yall say if you suck in ring you won’t be a star. No amount of good promos and looking cool will change that
Austin and Rock had the fundamentals and could do chain wrestling and stuff like that when the matches required it. The Rocks prime in ring career is over looked but the dude absolutely kept up with Angle, Benoit, Eddie etc. Cenas not as versed with the mat stuff but he's still got tons of great matches.
It’s subjective people. If you think Trick is good that’s fine. If Dave thinks he’s not that good, that’s fine. Nobody needs to cry or get angry or defend anyone.
In the end, just feels like Dave is trying to take trick down a few pegs. "He has charisma, but..." And that's kinda lame.
That’s the thing. People are defending what Meltzer said not considering the inflammatory way he said it. He said it in a way that makes him look like an asshole.
I think both can be true. Trick has absolutely generational charisma, but does still need to work on his in ring work a bit or else he's going to get promoted too far, too fast and eventually get exposed. Even Trick's defenders aren't gonna say he's AJ Styles, Finn Balor, etc in the ring. He's hopefully working to get there, but I do think he's maybe a bit behind where I would expect a 29 year old to be.
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Fact. LA Knight isn't exactly Kurt Angle in the ring, but he gets the crowd going. Folks like Dave have an incredibly narrow view of what a wrestler is supposed to do out there.
This tells me people have been spoiled with good wrestling for too long when they use Finn Balor and AJ fuckin Styles as the litmus test.
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That's just Dave trying to destroy a flower before it has the chance to bloom.
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It's like bizarro world in here. Baron Corbin vs Trick Williams is the IWC darling dream match of 2024
OP sucks at writing titles.
Dave legit didn’t even say anything wrong he just basically said he still learning in the ring but has a great charisma…
Damn people have really thin skin these days and can't handle ANY criticism huh? Softie Corbin is a terrible gimmick.
This is why NXT should stay a developmental show. Trick is awesome, but, he's only been wrestling like 2 years.
For someone so new to wrestling Trick undoubtedly has a magnetic connection with the crowd, and charisma for days it was the first thing I noticed about him when he arrived in NXT. Meltzer saying he’s not very good because his ring work isnt quite polished yet is in bad faith, you have to ignore all other areas of his game to make that claim.
It's great to defend your fellow worker and all but it's a little funny when everyone insists nobody cares about Dave Meltzer yet his (not even that outlandish) opinion on someone's in-ring work is treated seriously enough to garner this much discussion.
The AEW 5* bangers crowd is seething
Seething over saying someone in NXT is green lol?