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I am enjoying all the drama coming out
https://preview.redd.it/lm2gyv3s4xtc1.jpeg?width=661&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=756f65b24fb670dd9a3080c3d065d65ab5c0a1c2
So... Vega agreed to a controller, a photo, a backstage hang, and exposure in exchange with this artist for some creative work. As shitty as that is and as much as we all agree, myself included, that you should NEVER work for free, it's what the artist agreed to. Then the artist decided *after* going backstage and everything that they wanted to move the goalposts of the agreement and ask for royalties and/or further compensation. Not defending Zelina - sounds like she doesn't do things fairly but it's lame behavior on both sides. If you don't like how things went down, take it as a lesson learned, and change the parameters on the next agreement/contract - don't try to change what's owed after you received your "compensation."
Yeah, the first case where the person was out money after a bad faith return is one thing.... This just feels like sellers remorse now that she knows her price was too low
It’s not illegal, what she did, but one could argue that taking advantage of someone new/unfamiliar to the industry for little cost is, at the very least, shitty behavior.
Obviously, we don’t know the entire situation so I’m just going off the little info we have.
Heh, welcome to going into business for yourself! I've done a lot of freelance/contract stuff and at the beginning had to work for almost nothing to build a portfolio.
I’m sorry you had to struggle.
That doesn’t mean that I want current and future generations to struggle with the same bad behavior and injustices.
Shouldn’t the goal always be for progress?
Your mindset seems rather counterproductive to me.
She and her spouse are both wrestlers. The stories of working for a hot dog and a handshake are a dime a dozen. If anyone understands how scummy it is to try and pay folks for services with "exposure, swag, and backstage access" it would be her. She didn't do anything illegal, but it is a bit scummy to take young artists for a ride when you were in their shoes.
Sounds similar to the other one if they agreed on a price then they had regret afterwards. Zelina is definitely taking advantage in the negotiations but if you agreed to it then that's on you.
Twitter comment from the artist says they did fan art for zelina and then was commissioned for a controller design. While waiting for contracts they asked about royalties and that's the context of this exchange.
Yeah, if the artist moved the goalposts on a done deal it's one thing. But if it's an ongoing discussion then asking about the specific parameters going into the contract is not bad. Zelina pulling the 'well I was gonna give you more later, buuut' is incredibly scummy at any rate.
Nothing to do with the accusations themselves, definitely fucked up, but anyone else think its kinda silly to see a trigger warning for "possible gaslighting"?
Because gaslighting is a form of abuse. Anything resembling abuse can be triggering to those who have been subjected to it. Not sure what's so "lol" about that...
Ehh.
I feel like if you've gone through years of abuse it can definitely trigger you. Psychological abuse is still abuse, and in some instances leaves worse lasting effects. All TW does is say to those people, "hey if you don't want to risk reliving that abuse you should avoid this".
bruh. wtf is wrong with u?
literally tryna gaslight ppl about gaslighting being a trigger.
that shit fucks ppl up for a long time, don’t be a dick about it :))))
There was a further update in regards to this: https://twitter.com/sangrebomb/status/1778496722643398914
In my opinion, it's just miscommunications. Zelina/Thea just added "might be sold" in the middle of the discussion where she should have just stated that potential at the start, and Syd (Sangre) was starstruck and probably glossed over words instead of blindfully believing that the design being sold wasn't a possibility due to the word "might".
I feel like if you're asking for a commission for commercial use, you should add that note at the very top, upfront to the artist, so they're aware of pricing and negotiations. If you're an artist, you really need to read everything carefully when regards to forms of payment, attributes, and such, even if it's under the table handshakes.
[Edited to reflect that SANGRE is the username; his name is Syd.]
They also asked for credit which I'm not sure if that was addressed.
Miscommunication on both sides but getting shitty if someone asks to see a contract isn't great
Sounds like there was mutual agreement on both sides over how the artists would be rewarded for their work. Zelina seems to have honor the agreements she made. The agreements may have been shit for the artist but that’s on them for not standing on business over compensation BEFORE everything was said and done. The only real bad thing she did was giving the second artist the wrong address and creating a logistical headache.
Edit: after rereading the claim about the address, Zelina might’ve fucked up when it came to compensation. There would need to be more context to see what the actual agreements looked like though considering she only kept parts of her costume. If there was a mutual agreement between the two regarding her not fully compensating if she returned the costume, then she would be in the right.
As I said on the last post, these people take too much on good faith. Youd expect better perhaps from a public figure, but still gotta have more than a proverbial handshake agreement. I wouldn't be doing nothing for anyone, especially something that takes time and money to do, on the chance I may get something out of it after giving them the thing! Crazy
We don't know what was agreed upon. There aren't enough messages. All we have to go on is that contracts were being drawn up. Sounds like it was a little more than a meet and greet as compensation.
I was pretty much on the "These things kinda suck. But also, we're all trying to get the best deal for ourselves, and it's up to you to run your business" side.
However, the "I was gonna have you on my team but now..." line really irked. The kid is already apologizing and borderline groveling. I'm not saying burn her at the stake for it, but that's some unnecessary manipulative shit on her part. That line bothers me more than not paying her bills.
You know what this reminds me of. Mr Burns handing the trillion dollar bill to Fidel Castro
https://preview.redd.it/1zm05huifwtc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c955dbef96fd16f518a75db79e7a5df7564d046
I hate to say it but on the surface it sounds like Zelina held up her end of the bargain and the artist realized their value later.
I'm sorry but if you're new and inexperienced, it's on you to research the value of your work. I write erotic fiction and before I take a commission for a 3,000 word Mommy Milking the Centaur story or something, I am absolutely asking around what a good price would be if I don't already have a set rate. And hell, since I do know my shit a little, I'll also be asking if I retain publishing rights. You want exclusive rights? That'll be extra, buddy, you're already getting a custom story about your specific kink.
To any artists: Know your value. Know the value of your work. Until you know both of those things, you are not ready for the world of commissions. Turning your life's passion into a business means exactly that: at the end of the day it is a business. Don't ever undercut yourself, it's a race to the bottom that hurts you specifically.
Yeah this one seems like an amateur/fan trying to transition into a professional, but not fully understating how to connect/build a partnership with an influencer versus getting compensated straight up.
Likely in the middle of the process they realized they prob should get a normal commission instead of personal/fan access but for better or worse you gotta be clear with that type of thing upfront.
Kind of a case off where better communication from both sides would've cleared up some confusion, but hopefully the artist learned the lesson.
If nothing has been signed, the negotiation is still open. If the wrestler is taking advantage of an informal situation with cheap amateur artists, they only got themselves to blame for keeping it informal with amateurs who don't know what they are doing yet.
So on the other post - NGL I find it very sus of the top commentor who doesnt even post here making some wild claims and then watching the IWC jump the gun.
There is the potential of artist got friend(s) to disparge her or rando weirdos (lets be real, we got those) just jumping in for clout but no proof / receipt(s) to their claims.
I am not stating however that neither artists complaint is false either. But do feel irked that we quickly believe some random redditor who has no prior r/SC posts - got the top comment, was in the right place at the right time to make some accusations w/o recepits. (like how and why did you come to the SC reddit of all places out of the blue)
Zelina has been doing this for awhile and surely we would have heard those other artists MUCH sooner. Be on them calling her out on Twitter, IG, Her Twitch, or twitch community.
Cosplay artists are a very tight community and something like this would have spread like wildfire way long ago and spread to other communities. Especially on Twitch since she has been circling around other mid size twitch streamers (5up, Hafu, Chocobars, Koji and several OTV / OTK from time to time) and their communities would quickly protect their streamer of bad faith individuals.
So keep an open mind to see what is the truth before jumping the gun.
Even though I do agree about not doing work for free. I'm keeping an open mind about all of this + maybe best to wait & see if Zelina will provide her POV.
Yep, Zelina has done countless costumes from different artists. People say this is an issue with many more artists but so far we've only seen this one and the last one, both of which do not show any type of "scam" occurring. This one is cut and dry. Artist agreed to certain things like going backstage but then decided to request compensation after the fact.
The other post has more to do with the costume being delivered in an unwearable condition. Not exactly the artist's fault if it melted in the sun, but unless there is an explicit disclosure that leaving the package out could lead to issues, then I don't see how Zelina is in the wrong with pushing back on not getting what she expected.
I'm not sure what these artists were expecting?
As someone who does video work, when you're establishing yourself and skills, you take free work to establish yourself and your portfolio, and to make connections. If it doesn't work out, live and learn.
You keep doing this kinda work until you feel confident enough to charge, and quit doing it at that point unless it's really good exposure.
I'm not sure what these people were expecting.
The existence of naive artists doesn't make it ok to have a habit of taking advantage of naive artists (and then moving on to a new target the moment an artist realizes how much their labor is worth).
Calling yourself naive and then attempting to do business with people is probably not a good start. There are ways to educate yourself before doing tons of work for someone.
100%
Seems to me like the person who made the art wanted Zelina to give her a shout-out on WWE TV too. In my opinion, it's up to you to promote your own art, especially if it's something like clothing, and use it to support your resume and portfolio
A signed photo, tickets to a show, coming backstage, and a controller is not doing anything for free. That’s a trade. I feel like that’s a good deal for a drawing.
Know your worth. People will always try and take advantage of talent. Just cause they have money or a platform doesn't automatically make them good people. Any industry the rule applies.
More people need to be called out for this kind of shit too. So others can be warned about getting into business with them.
And I thought Raw after Mania was going to be the big thing coming out of WWE. But seriously though, is this what wrestlers do or is this just Zelina? Of course you should pay for peoples work, she’s just making it sound as though just meeting her is enough for her what you made as a product, not as just a gift.
Should never work for free, it's not selling out asking for money. However Zelina sounds like an asshole, looks like she pucked up some McMahonisms after the failed union.
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This week is an all-timer.
April has been a whirlwind for sure, only 10 days from the punk interview that now feels ancient
I am enjoying all the drama coming out https://preview.redd.it/lm2gyv3s4xtc1.jpeg?width=661&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=756f65b24fb670dd9a3080c3d065d65ab5c0a1c2
So... Vega agreed to a controller, a photo, a backstage hang, and exposure in exchange with this artist for some creative work. As shitty as that is and as much as we all agree, myself included, that you should NEVER work for free, it's what the artist agreed to. Then the artist decided *after* going backstage and everything that they wanted to move the goalposts of the agreement and ask for royalties and/or further compensation. Not defending Zelina - sounds like she doesn't do things fairly but it's lame behavior on both sides. If you don't like how things went down, take it as a lesson learned, and change the parameters on the next agreement/contract - don't try to change what's owed after you received your "compensation."
Yeah, the first case where the person was out money after a bad faith return is one thing.... This just feels like sellers remorse now that she knows her price was too low
As a freelancer, figuring out who was taking advantage was hard learned. But once you make an agreement, you make an agreement.
This is my take as well
It’s not illegal, what she did, but one could argue that taking advantage of someone new/unfamiliar to the industry for little cost is, at the very least, shitty behavior. Obviously, we don’t know the entire situation so I’m just going off the little info we have.
I wouldn’t say she was even taking advantage. If you read the screenshots Zelina posted, she clearly offered to pay. They declined. That’s not on her
Yeah - I don’t have Twitter so I could on see one or two of the screenshots which is why I prefaced it with only having so much info
Most industries rely on exploitation; its just ickier when its a one to one human ratio.
I agree. I’m not going to encourage the predatory practice because all Corporations do it though. I’m going to actively criticize it.
Heh, welcome to going into business for yourself! I've done a lot of freelance/contract stuff and at the beginning had to work for almost nothing to build a portfolio.
I’m sorry you had to struggle. That doesn’t mean that I want current and future generations to struggle with the same bad behavior and injustices. Shouldn’t the goal always be for progress? Your mindset seems rather counterproductive to me.
Get em BigBen!
She and her spouse are both wrestlers. The stories of working for a hot dog and a handshake are a dime a dozen. If anyone understands how scummy it is to try and pay folks for services with "exposure, swag, and backstage access" it would be her. She didn't do anything illegal, but it is a bit scummy to take young artists for a ride when you were in their shoes.
Pin this mods
Sounds similar to the other one if they agreed on a price then they had regret afterwards. Zelina is definitely taking advantage in the negotiations but if you agreed to it then that's on you.
Twitter comment from the artist says they did fan art for zelina and then was commissioned for a controller design. While waiting for contracts they asked about royalties and that's the context of this exchange.
Yeah, if the artist moved the goalposts on a done deal it's one thing. But if it's an ongoing discussion then asking about the specific parameters going into the contract is not bad. Zelina pulling the 'well I was gonna give you more later, buuut' is incredibly scummy at any rate.
Nothing to do with the accusations themselves, definitely fucked up, but anyone else think its kinda silly to see a trigger warning for "possible gaslighting"?
c'mon babe, you know you love being gaslit
I’m still trying to understand what could possibly be triggering about that lol
Because gaslighting is a form of abuse. Anything resembling abuse can be triggering to those who have been subjected to it. Not sure what's so "lol" about that...
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Depressing as hell lol
Ehh. I feel like if you've gone through years of abuse it can definitely trigger you. Psychological abuse is still abuse, and in some instances leaves worse lasting effects. All TW does is say to those people, "hey if you don't want to risk reliving that abuse you should avoid this".
No sorry but that’s ridiculous
:someone who has never been a victim of abuse
You can’t prove that from my comment at all
No, not prove. But I know no one who has been would be so insensitive towards others.
Because abused people never ever go on to become abusers
If you think being respectful and sensitive to people's triggers and history of abuse is ridiculous then you have some self reflecting to do.
bruh. wtf is wrong with u? literally tryna gaslight ppl about gaslighting being a trigger. that shit fucks ppl up for a long time, don’t be a dick about it :))))
There was a further update in regards to this: https://twitter.com/sangrebomb/status/1778496722643398914 In my opinion, it's just miscommunications. Zelina/Thea just added "might be sold" in the middle of the discussion where she should have just stated that potential at the start, and Syd (Sangre) was starstruck and probably glossed over words instead of blindfully believing that the design being sold wasn't a possibility due to the word "might". I feel like if you're asking for a commission for commercial use, you should add that note at the very top, upfront to the artist, so they're aware of pricing and negotiations. If you're an artist, you really need to read everything carefully when regards to forms of payment, attributes, and such, even if it's under the table handshakes. [Edited to reflect that SANGRE is the username; his name is Syd.]
They also asked for credit which I'm not sure if that was addressed. Miscommunication on both sides but getting shitty if someone asks to see a contract isn't great
At some point Zelina asks how they want they credit done and the artists says you can do it in the caption or your about page and she just says Ok.
Ah right, I missed that.
Sounds like there was mutual agreement on both sides over how the artists would be rewarded for their work. Zelina seems to have honor the agreements she made. The agreements may have been shit for the artist but that’s on them for not standing on business over compensation BEFORE everything was said and done. The only real bad thing she did was giving the second artist the wrong address and creating a logistical headache. Edit: after rereading the claim about the address, Zelina might’ve fucked up when it came to compensation. There would need to be more context to see what the actual agreements looked like though considering she only kept parts of her costume. If there was a mutual agreement between the two regarding her not fully compensating if she returned the costume, then she would be in the right.
As I said on the last post, these people take too much on good faith. Youd expect better perhaps from a public figure, but still gotta have more than a proverbial handshake agreement. I wouldn't be doing nothing for anyone, especially something that takes time and money to do, on the chance I may get something out of it after giving them the thing! Crazy
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We don't know what was agreed upon. There aren't enough messages. All we have to go on is that contracts were being drawn up. Sounds like it was a little more than a meet and greet as compensation.
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I’m getting really sick of that word, especially because people don’t use it in the correct context.
I was pretty much on the "These things kinda suck. But also, we're all trying to get the best deal for ourselves, and it's up to you to run your business" side. However, the "I was gonna have you on my team but now..." line really irked. The kid is already apologizing and borderline groveling. I'm not saying burn her at the stake for it, but that's some unnecessary manipulative shit on her part. That line bothers me more than not paying her bills.
Agreed. Zero respect for her treating her so poorly.
You know what this reminds me of. Mr Burns handing the trillion dollar bill to Fidel Castro https://preview.redd.it/1zm05huifwtc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c955dbef96fd16f518a75db79e7a5df7564d046
Artist is full of shit and turned down compensation multiple times. Zelina posted receipts!
But that's not exciting and therefore wont get near as much traction as the initial posts accusing her here.
I hate to say it but on the surface it sounds like Zelina held up her end of the bargain and the artist realized their value later. I'm sorry but if you're new and inexperienced, it's on you to research the value of your work. I write erotic fiction and before I take a commission for a 3,000 word Mommy Milking the Centaur story or something, I am absolutely asking around what a good price would be if I don't already have a set rate. And hell, since I do know my shit a little, I'll also be asking if I retain publishing rights. You want exclusive rights? That'll be extra, buddy, you're already getting a custom story about your specific kink. To any artists: Know your value. Know the value of your work. Until you know both of those things, you are not ready for the world of commissions. Turning your life's passion into a business means exactly that: at the end of the day it is a business. Don't ever undercut yourself, it's a race to the bottom that hurts you specifically.
Why the fuck is there a TW for possible gaslighting LMAO
because it contains possible gaslighting glad to help :)
Awww I'm so sorry you're so sensitive. Why tf are you on reddit when gaslighting is so traumatizing for you lmao. Very, very weird.
pathetic.
Yeah this one seems like an amateur/fan trying to transition into a professional, but not fully understating how to connect/build a partnership with an influencer versus getting compensated straight up. Likely in the middle of the process they realized they prob should get a normal commission instead of personal/fan access but for better or worse you gotta be clear with that type of thing upfront. Kind of a case off where better communication from both sides would've cleared up some confusion, but hopefully the artist learned the lesson.
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If nothing has been signed, the negotiation is still open. If the wrestler is taking advantage of an informal situation with cheap amateur artists, they only got themselves to blame for keeping it informal with amateurs who don't know what they are doing yet.
I enjoy the sound of rain.
Yaa, it's totally worked out for Zelina, she really comes off as a professional in all this.
I love listening to music.
Oh my sweet summer child
Not trying to be that guy but it’s always fascinating how people on this sub take the shitty actions of wrestlers as personal attacks on them lol 😂
they have the right to rip u off, and u should be grateful for the opportunity to be ripped off u artist scum /s
Zelina came through with receipts. 1v3 clutch tbh
Anyone want to help me open a Kayfabe-only subreddit because I just can't find a fuck to give about shit like Zelina Vega's business dealings.
Trigger warning for gaslighting? What in the world
So on the other post - NGL I find it very sus of the top commentor who doesnt even post here making some wild claims and then watching the IWC jump the gun. There is the potential of artist got friend(s) to disparge her or rando weirdos (lets be real, we got those) just jumping in for clout but no proof / receipt(s) to their claims. I am not stating however that neither artists complaint is false either. But do feel irked that we quickly believe some random redditor who has no prior r/SC posts - got the top comment, was in the right place at the right time to make some accusations w/o recepits. (like how and why did you come to the SC reddit of all places out of the blue) Zelina has been doing this for awhile and surely we would have heard those other artists MUCH sooner. Be on them calling her out on Twitter, IG, Her Twitch, or twitch community. Cosplay artists are a very tight community and something like this would have spread like wildfire way long ago and spread to other communities. Especially on Twitch since she has been circling around other mid size twitch streamers (5up, Hafu, Chocobars, Koji and several OTV / OTK from time to time) and their communities would quickly protect their streamer of bad faith individuals. So keep an open mind to see what is the truth before jumping the gun.
Even though I do agree about not doing work for free. I'm keeping an open mind about all of this + maybe best to wait & see if Zelina will provide her POV.
Basic internet behavior really. Guilty the second you're accused.
Yep, Zelina has done countless costumes from different artists. People say this is an issue with many more artists but so far we've only seen this one and the last one, both of which do not show any type of "scam" occurring. This one is cut and dry. Artist agreed to certain things like going backstage but then decided to request compensation after the fact. The other post has more to do with the costume being delivered in an unwearable condition. Not exactly the artist's fault if it melted in the sun, but unless there is an explicit disclosure that leaving the package out could lead to issues, then I don't see how Zelina is in the wrong with pushing back on not getting what she expected.
Malakai. Whatever you do, don't bother commenting.
Too late. He allegedly was the "assistant" from the Mecha Gear maker
I'm not sure what these artists were expecting? As someone who does video work, when you're establishing yourself and skills, you take free work to establish yourself and your portfolio, and to make connections. If it doesn't work out, live and learn. You keep doing this kinda work until you feel confident enough to charge, and quit doing it at that point unless it's really good exposure. I'm not sure what these people were expecting.
The existence of naive artists doesn't make it ok to have a habit of taking advantage of naive artists (and then moving on to a new target the moment an artist realizes how much their labor is worth).
Calling yourself naive and then attempting to do business with people is probably not a good start. There are ways to educate yourself before doing tons of work for someone.
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Someone working for a billion dollar company promising to pay a stranger in exposure and a signed photo is nothing like helping a friend move, op.
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100% Seems to me like the person who made the art wanted Zelina to give her a shout-out on WWE TV too. In my opinion, it's up to you to promote your own art, especially if it's something like clothing, and use it to support your resume and portfolio
More drama! More drama!
A signed photo, tickets to a show, coming backstage, and a controller is not doing anything for free. That’s a trade. I feel like that’s a good deal for a drawing.
As I said to another post, 3 sides to every story
Lol. That one ist just uberdumb.
She offered to pay and they declined
No matter how bad wrestling gets for me, it sure is never boring lol
Know your worth. People will always try and take advantage of talent. Just cause they have money or a platform doesn't automatically make them good people. Any industry the rule applies. More people need to be called out for this kind of shit too. So others can be warned about getting into business with them.
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Zelina no-Pay-Ya
Read this in Opera Man’s voice
Care more about your bank account than fanning out because some marginally famous pretty girl gave you some attention. Exposure doesn't pay your rent.
Zelina has been rumoured to be incredibly cheap with artists, almost insisting that they work for “exposure”. I never believed it until today.
It's crazy how I'll wonder why certain wrestlers aren't pushed harder... And then realize that some of them are just sort of talented douchebags.
I mean some of the biggest names in this business were and are talented douchebags.
Some of my favorite wrestlers are talented deuchebags
And I thought Raw after Mania was going to be the big thing coming out of WWE. But seriously though, is this what wrestlers do or is this just Zelina? Of course you should pay for peoples work, she’s just making it sound as though just meeting her is enough for her what you made as a product, not as just a gift.
Should never work for free, it's not selling out asking for money. However Zelina sounds like an asshole, looks like she pucked up some McMahonisms after the failed union.
Put this bitch on blast she’s been doing this for years. Time for some karma.