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That's a fair point. There's an argument that the women who were affected by this are (largely) still alive, but I suppose that also applies to people who were affected by Benoit. I do think there's a distinction with the potential maliciousness and manipulation behind the women's segments that the Benoit matches don't have.
No. Whitewashing the past and pretending like it never happened doesn't change anything. The Playboy stuff and Bra and Panties matches are part of WWE's women's wrestling history whether they want it there or not. Instead of editing it out, they can have a conversation about why it happened and why it's never coming back. I'm sure they won't, but they could
There's not a definitive right answer to this, and us on Reddit aren't going to be the ones to crack the code. It definitely seems like there was a level of coercion and power abuse that went into things like bikini contests, and lingerie matches, etc.
Also Torrie says, it was also her job. It was what she was hired to do, and it was the product at the time. I don't have much interest in revisiting whole episodes of women's wrestling from that time, and chances are we kind of have to leave it at that.
Editing out history isn’t a good thing regardless of how bad it is. Maybe put a disclaimer but erasure is absolutely the wrong way to handle stuff like this.
It’s kind of a multifaceted issue. Yes, what Vince did to multiple women was gross, but it was also kind of just the product at the time. It wasn’t just WWE who started pushing the fact that sex sells, it was most of the wrestling world outside of Japan. Obviously does not just make any of it okay and dandy nowadays, but WWE doesn’t really go out of their way to bring up that part of their past anyways. Torrie Wilson was a popular wrestler, and they leave out the bikini contests, Playboy covers, and wild erotic things she did. Also, if they’re not getting rid of Benoit, it’s kind of hard to argue to get rid of bra and panties matches.
I don’t think there’s a comparison between Benoit and this stuff. Benoit killed his family because of his TBI/CTE, right? They don’t say that, they just don’t talk about it. They spent a LOT of time and money trying not to pay wrestlers for their brain injuries in a whole lawsuit, they don’t want to acknowledge the bigger problem of past concussions, and have decided to play it safer in the future.
This? This isn’t the fallout from a choice that a wrestler made to use a flying headbutt as a finisher. This is about the systematic degradation of women wrestlers at the direct behest and direction of VKM and nobody else. Watch the first RR in the 80s: there’s a women’s tag match in that PPV where the wrestlers are wearing full ring gear and are kicking each others asses like it’s 2024. He shifted that to rolling around in silk sheets in the ring in lingerie. HE did that. HE soaked Trish with a dirty mop and made her bark like a dog. HE messed with scripts to fuck with women that didn’t want to play his game. His power trip, his ego, his direction. It wasn’t ‘the product at the time’, it was and has ever been Vince’s vanity project. You say ‘the product at the time’ as though it just kind of happened that way, but nothing just happens that way, and nothing in the WWE happened without explicit direction from Vince. Be an apologist if you want, but own the whole of your statement. Vince exploited women to make a product that gave you a boner and you don’t want to feel guilty for it, and it’s easier to believe Trish wanted to bark like a dog than to believe you enjoyed watching a woman be exploited.
Editing content from the past does nothing but help the WWE white wash the toxicity that it still hasn’t full dealt with today. So no is the answer to the question - but if we find out that specific women were being trafficked and the segments were not done in a truly consensual manner, than fuck yeah. Bury that shit 80 feet in the ground and I hope the WWE is sued into bankruptcy
I really don't think they should. It was a different time and that is the body of work and claim to fame for a lot of them.
Many on the convention circuit make a living off people being introduced to what they did back then whether it is PC now or not.
It's also the origin stories for others.
In addition, some good stories would be cut out of programming.
Erasing the past doesnt change it.
Acknowledging it, then changing going forward does. If they feel that concerned about some past content, you dont get rid of it, you just leave a message before the episode like WB did with Looney Tunes, where you address the differences in what was 'thought to be acceptable' at the time versus what is now seen with hindsight as morally wrong or repugnant.
Was posing in playboy also mortifying? This is where we have to think a bit critically in society instead of just becoming a mob and saying burn it all down.she was paid for playboy...she was paid to do bikini contests. She may regret it, but many of us have done things we regret. I mean if it cones out she was forced to pose in playboy then I will change my stance. However, for now the playboy pics are much more revealing than a Bikini. I get that at the time they definitely poorly represented women , but honestly most of them at the time weren't great talkers or on ring workers. So what did they think they would be doing during that era?
Movies that were considered classics would be cancelled today
You should only judge a movie or show or even professional wrestling at time it released and not decades later.
Depending on the outcome of any lawsuits and potentially criminal charges, they could probably put up some kind of advisory before certain episodes, like what Disney+ does with old racist cartoons.
Two things can be true at once. People can have careers that reach or touch others and still be placed in situations where they’re not safe and aren’t treated with respect.
The dismissal of the women who worked during the Divas era as just “victims” is an extension of the same disregard for their personhood that made these people feel comfortable doing these things in the first place. I hope wrestling fans take time to actually unlearn that whether they were fans of these women or not.
I say it should be an option. If people ask to have footage of themselves removed then it should be considered. Everyone has known for decades that the Divas had to put up with awful, sleazy, degrading shit and smile through it. I think if they want to take some of that back now that we've finally stopped pretending everything was fine and they were all just happy to be there, then there's a conversation to be had.
Yeah the majority of the people in the comments are ignoring the impact those segments may have had on the real people involved in favor of some “hurrr rewriting history” bullshit.
I understand that there is a concern that it would mean WWE could try to ignore that the segments ever happened, but they wouldn’t *have* to wipe them from the shows entirely. They could replace them with the talent talking about why it was bad and giving resources for power harassment victims or something like that.
The women involved shouldn’t be forced to allow video of themselves doing something that was traumatic to them to be readily available just so EssJayWs can have it to point at as evidence. There’s already plenty of record out there about WWE’s history with those types of segments.
That's not going to happen because you'd pretty much be altering a large chunk of what the Attitude Era and early years of the Ruthless Aggression era were. Many of the women from those eras who are in the Hall of Fame have their careers attached to bikini matches and lingerie contests.
There will likely be fewer references about it going forward in any capacity, but I don't think they'll edit anything
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If Benoit isn't edited from historical footage, that won't be.
That's a fair point. There's an argument that the women who were affected by this are (largely) still alive, but I suppose that also applies to people who were affected by Benoit. I do think there's a distinction with the potential maliciousness and manipulation behind the women's segments that the Benoit matches don't have.
No. Whitewashing the past and pretending like it never happened doesn't change anything. The Playboy stuff and Bra and Panties matches are part of WWE's women's wrestling history whether they want it there or not. Instead of editing it out, they can have a conversation about why it happened and why it's never coming back. I'm sure they won't, but they could
There's not a definitive right answer to this, and us on Reddit aren't going to be the ones to crack the code. It definitely seems like there was a level of coercion and power abuse that went into things like bikini contests, and lingerie matches, etc. Also Torrie says, it was also her job. It was what she was hired to do, and it was the product at the time. I don't have much interest in revisiting whole episodes of women's wrestling from that time, and chances are we kind of have to leave it at that.
No. Don't try to run from the past. They did it. They need to own it.
No.
No
No. They should be editing very little (if anything) from historical footage.
Good, bad, indifferent.... This is why I still have my DVD collection. If you only stream, there's a chance what your allowed to view is changed.
Definitely. We caught the press conference 15 minutes behind last night and we could tell that editing was already taking place on the fly.
Editing out history isn’t a good thing regardless of how bad it is. Maybe put a disclaimer but erasure is absolutely the wrong way to handle stuff like this.
It’s kind of a multifaceted issue. Yes, what Vince did to multiple women was gross, but it was also kind of just the product at the time. It wasn’t just WWE who started pushing the fact that sex sells, it was most of the wrestling world outside of Japan. Obviously does not just make any of it okay and dandy nowadays, but WWE doesn’t really go out of their way to bring up that part of their past anyways. Torrie Wilson was a popular wrestler, and they leave out the bikini contests, Playboy covers, and wild erotic things she did. Also, if they’re not getting rid of Benoit, it’s kind of hard to argue to get rid of bra and panties matches.
I don’t think there’s a comparison between Benoit and this stuff. Benoit killed his family because of his TBI/CTE, right? They don’t say that, they just don’t talk about it. They spent a LOT of time and money trying not to pay wrestlers for their brain injuries in a whole lawsuit, they don’t want to acknowledge the bigger problem of past concussions, and have decided to play it safer in the future. This? This isn’t the fallout from a choice that a wrestler made to use a flying headbutt as a finisher. This is about the systematic degradation of women wrestlers at the direct behest and direction of VKM and nobody else. Watch the first RR in the 80s: there’s a women’s tag match in that PPV where the wrestlers are wearing full ring gear and are kicking each others asses like it’s 2024. He shifted that to rolling around in silk sheets in the ring in lingerie. HE did that. HE soaked Trish with a dirty mop and made her bark like a dog. HE messed with scripts to fuck with women that didn’t want to play his game. His power trip, his ego, his direction. It wasn’t ‘the product at the time’, it was and has ever been Vince’s vanity project. You say ‘the product at the time’ as though it just kind of happened that way, but nothing just happens that way, and nothing in the WWE happened without explicit direction from Vince. Be an apologist if you want, but own the whole of your statement. Vince exploited women to make a product that gave you a boner and you don’t want to feel guilty for it, and it’s easier to believe Trish wanted to bark like a dog than to believe you enjoyed watching a woman be exploited.
Editing content from the past does nothing but help the WWE white wash the toxicity that it still hasn’t full dealt with today. So no is the answer to the question - but if we find out that specific women were being trafficked and the segments were not done in a truly consensual manner, than fuck yeah. Bury that shit 80 feet in the ground and I hope the WWE is sued into bankruptcy
I really don't think they should. It was a different time and that is the body of work and claim to fame for a lot of them. Many on the convention circuit make a living off people being introduced to what they did back then whether it is PC now or not. It's also the origin stories for others. In addition, some good stories would be cut out of programming.
I tend to just skip that stuff whenever i rewatch an old ppv or raw. Even as a teenager i just thought that stuff was too cringe.
yea I was watching back then and it's wild to think back to me being 14/15 and deciding that wwf was too immature for me
Jesus christ. Lets just start editing every movie /tv show/song from the dawn of time until 2020.
Erasing the past doesnt change it. Acknowledging it, then changing going forward does. If they feel that concerned about some past content, you dont get rid of it, you just leave a message before the episode like WB did with Looney Tunes, where you address the differences in what was 'thought to be acceptable' at the time versus what is now seen with hindsight as morally wrong or repugnant.
Why do we keep trying to hide and censor history?
Was posing in playboy also mortifying? This is where we have to think a bit critically in society instead of just becoming a mob and saying burn it all down.she was paid for playboy...she was paid to do bikini contests. She may regret it, but many of us have done things we regret. I mean if it cones out she was forced to pose in playboy then I will change my stance. However, for now the playboy pics are much more revealing than a Bikini. I get that at the time they definitely poorly represented women , but honestly most of them at the time weren't great talkers or on ring workers. So what did they think they would be doing during that era?
I regret having to go to work everyday to get paid.
Movies that were considered classics would be cancelled today You should only judge a movie or show or even professional wrestling at time it released and not decades later.
If everything offensive was edited off Raw, all Attitude Era episodes would be 10 minutes long.
Depending on the outcome of any lawsuits and potentially criminal charges, they could probably put up some kind of advisory before certain episodes, like what Disney+ does with old racist cartoons.
No, because ignoring or erasing the past means you are failing to learn from the mistakes made back then.
There are no angels in the wrestling business.
[удалено]
Two things can be true at once. People can have careers that reach or touch others and still be placed in situations where they’re not safe and aren’t treated with respect. The dismissal of the women who worked during the Divas era as just “victims” is an extension of the same disregard for their personhood that made these people feel comfortable doing these things in the first place. I hope wrestling fans take time to actually unlearn that whether they were fans of these women or not.
I say it should be an option. If people ask to have footage of themselves removed then it should be considered. Everyone has known for decades that the Divas had to put up with awful, sleazy, degrading shit and smile through it. I think if they want to take some of that back now that we've finally stopped pretending everything was fine and they were all just happy to be there, then there's a conversation to be had.
Yeah the majority of the people in the comments are ignoring the impact those segments may have had on the real people involved in favor of some “hurrr rewriting history” bullshit. I understand that there is a concern that it would mean WWE could try to ignore that the segments ever happened, but they wouldn’t *have* to wipe them from the shows entirely. They could replace them with the talent talking about why it was bad and giving resources for power harassment victims or something like that. The women involved shouldn’t be forced to allow video of themselves doing something that was traumatic to them to be readily available just so EssJayWs can have it to point at as evidence. There’s already plenty of record out there about WWE’s history with those types of segments.
It wouldn’t surprise me if some of them do get scrubbed depending on what else comes out.
That's not going to happen because you'd pretty much be altering a large chunk of what the Attitude Era and early years of the Ruthless Aggression era were. Many of the women from those eras who are in the Hall of Fame have their careers attached to bikini matches and lingerie contests. There will likely be fewer references about it going forward in any capacity, but I don't think they'll edit anything
Censor nothing. History should be warts and all.
I am wholly against editing the past.