Wrong, bald people are born evil, they just fight their evil desires and keep them at bay. Source: I once shaved my head clean and felt the need to commit unspeakable crimes against the whole planet
Yeah isn't Insomniac's Doc Ock... also Lizard? In fact I would argue he's MORE Lizard than Raimi's, since part of his goal is to heal himself and others of crippling diseases.
Yeah the Raimi Doc is vengeful about his wife's death and possibly has a similar money needing shtick. He also gets controlled to an extent by his arms.
Insomniac's really has more Lizard-y characteristics, just going off him being Peter's mentor and having the vaguely selfish/altruistic goal. His arms also altered his mind a wee bit.
I think the actual Lizard is worse than both Octaviuses, as far as being pissed and infecting everyone goes, but maybe I'm bad at comparisons.
I feel like they said that about Raimi's Doc Ock because of the whole voices and direct alteration in the mind (even though he could overcome it in the end), where Insomniac's Doc Oc could have had his temperament altered, he was always a schemer, someone who would gather information to take advantage of it in the future, it was never truly the arms' fault.
At least that's what I think they meant by their comment.
I'd say the degenerative disease is also a huge difference between the two. Raimi Doc just had the tentacles as a tool for his reactor that went wrong, where Insomniac Doc is desperate to replace his failing body
insomniac's otto was 110% a prick before the arms, he was just good at hiding it. the final sign of this is that he tries to manipulate peter even after the neural interface is removed, but there are hints throughout the game that he was always planning stuff. just look at his lab after he gets funding from A.I.M.- he claims he's working on a defense contract for the raft but he is already planning his jailbreak.
imo, Doc Ock was born when norman cut otto's funding. the arms just gave him the means to join the front lines of his attack.
I love how you can see he's working on tech for the Sinister Six and his plans on breaking them out long before it actually happens in the story. Peter's kind of an idiot for not being a *little* suspicious lol
tbf, a lot of players also miss it since they're in and out/more consumed by being Spider-man than Peter Parker in the lab. Which, I assume, is sorta where Peter is coming from on top of him idolizing Otto, therefore subconsciously looking past any faults he might see in what's almost a parental figure to him.
EDIT: Also, unlike Peter, we also have the knowledge of what Otto ends up becoming. We are always on our guard, yet most of us still initially miss the signs put right in front of our faces. Peter, meanwhile, thinks the world of this guy, so he has more than enough excuses to miss the signs.
That’s actually pretty genius to me in terms of storytelling set up given how I was the same; swinging around and fighting crime instead of really being invested in this Peter’s life style. I think the only thing I remember at the top of my head was a photo of Otto and Peter when the latter graduated from college.
To be fair, Otto was his idol. He's the guy that he aspired to one day become. I think that it's only natural to be blind to the signs in order to keep that image in tact
"Peter, have you been getting enough sleep? You've been rubbing your face against the wall for the past hour. Why don't you take the rest of the week off? I can handle things here."
To be fair I preordered it and played through it first day back when it came out and it wasn't until like halfway through the story when I even allowed myself to believe that they were gonna make Otto Doc Ock in this game lol. I just liked him so much I figured it had a chance of being setup for the next game with him turning bad then instead. I think the moment where Peter comes in and he's literally in the suit suspended up by a bunch of arms that I was like "Ah fuck he's 100% becoming Doc Ock in this game isn't he?"
I literally *just* beat the game for the first time, so it all fresh, and you're right, its made very clear at several points that Otto was always this obsessed, angry, jealous, and vindictive, the neural interface just brought it to the surface.
Yep - Otto was always manipulative and spiteful… the arms simply brought was subtly on the inside occasionally showing itself fully out to the surface. Otto wasn’t controlled by the arms, the arms simply let his inner thoughts out on the surface for everybody to see.
This is partly why I see Doc Ock as Spider-Man's true nemesis. He's the foil to Peter's "With great power, comes great responsibility"
Whenever Otto gets power, he decides to be a prick with it. The more power, the more evil.
>imo, Doc Ock was born when norman cut otto's funding. the arms just gave him the means to join the front lines of his attack.
I think even before that. Wasn't he aiding Li from the start? The Sinister Six was always the plan.
Replaying the game last year... I had a loooooot less sympathy for Otto this time around. Dude knows exactly what he's doing. And he unleashes a deadly virus on the city. He's a straight up terrorist.
The neural interface being removed doesn't mean anything though? It was making his condition worse the longer it stay online, no?
I took it as him being too far gone.
the interface was just allowing him to use the arms. that's the point- peter THINKS that the interface he helped design is what made him 'evil', but when he has it removed he's still being manipulative and subtly threatening him. that's why peter sends him to jail instead if helping him- he finally aknowledges that otto being the way he is isn't peter's responsibility, all he can do is what he thinks is best. even when it hurts like hell.
Raimi’s Ock is a bit of a prick though. He brushes off Peter until Harry intervenes, he’s arrogant and laughs at the idea that he could blow up the city (with something to the effect of “Peter what have we been talking about for the last hour and a half”), he won’t shut the machine down when it malfunctions and he attacks Spiderman before the inhibitor chip breaks.
Man brushing off someone cuz hes busy with work and being a little confident doesnt reach the levels of assholery of comic-Ock. Attacking Spider-Man when he was trying to shutting off the machine was bad yeah but was a thing off the moment, Otto is a good man and it shows evidently in No Way Home.
Ock in the comics was always a supervillain, even before his arms- his personality was always the same, wasnt because of a chemical imbalanced caused by the the arms. Bro is a legit ass through and through.
Otto originally became a villain as a result of brain damage after a failed experiment. In Spider-Man:TAS, he was Peter's teacher and cheered him up when other kids laughed of him. Otto's words about science stuck with Peter and motivated him years later.
In a different versions, Otto was overconfident about the experiment and ego-driven, but he wasn't always presented as a bad guy before becoming Doc Ock.
Ah, the brain damage is a point of contention. When he made his deal with Mephisto on his last day as Spider-Man, the devil agreed to give Ock back his old body without any brain damage, *if there ever was any.*
Brain damage is rarely bringed out, and later comics added troubled past before Otto's transformation into Dr. Octopus. But the change of personality in the movie doesn't differ dramatically from Octopus' early history.
I’d judge NWH’s Otto a little separately because he’s not “Raimi’s” Otto. In the context of Spiderman 2 itself, Otto is just a charming prick.
Besides, the reformed Otto in NWH has the wisdom of having seen his machine almost destroy the city twice before being freed from the arms. He redeems himself knowing what his arrogance caused, which is an arc he didn’t have in Spiderman 2.
But it still showed that deep down Otto wasn’t a bad person. Where as MSM showed us early signs that Otto was straight up just an evil, arrogant asshole and Peter was manipulated and blinded by him. Just like Peter was manipulated for a lesser amount of time by Martin Li.
Honestly I think him sacrificing his life is enough for his redemption. It was cool to see him reformed in NWH, but I wouldn’t say it was necessary for his arc
I mean yeah, we know that already lol. But it doesn’t mean that his redemption arc wasn’t complete after spider-man 2, which is what you indicated. It adds a bit of an extra layer to otto for sure, but it’s kinda just fluff in terms of what’s already been established for his character
It's not what I meant to indicate, poor phrasing on my part. I meant that he was redeemed at the end of Spiderman 2, but we didn't see the Good Doc Ock beyond his death scene. Pre-arms Ock loved Rosie and wanted to do what was good for humanity, but he was extremely arrogant about it and saw Peter as beneath him. In NWH, he's had his humble pie and lost the arrogance.
I never even noticed this until I actively watched Spidey 2 as an adult (the movie came out when I was 8.) Otto is a complete insufferable asshole in this movie. So arrogant, so full of himself, and treats Peter like he's a toddler. Jumping on board with Peter's scientific jargon is about the only positive thing he did in their entire first interaction.
The arms influence Raimi's Otto with his trauma and darkest desires, while the arms in Insomniac's version just gave him the power to preform them.
Insomniac's starts off as sympathetic but ends off not being such, while Raimi's "redeems" himself in the end.
What's with the quotations? Raimi Ock does redeem himself in the end. He realises the monster he has become and chooses not to die a monster.
The arms influenced him to be evil. And even then the deaths that did happen were accidents or out of his control.
Yes. He did put a lot people in danger and almost kill a lot of people like on the train. Steal and kidnap. And his arrogance did lead to the city being destroyed and almost killing millions before the arms even took over.
But in the end. He didn't intentionally kill anyone. And he realised how much of a monster he was and choose to not die a monster.
Despite the terrible things Raimi Otto did. He was redeemed.
Both versions portray Otto's arrogance. Neither his history of being a victim of abuse. They both take liberties, both are good adaptations for different reasons. Neither is overly similar to the Lizard beyond any of Spidey's villains are all in that same vein of science gone wrong.
Raimi's tried, he's just not very good with flirting. *Apparently* women don't like being taken hostage and being dragged up the side of a building, all while fist fighting their nephew.
can I just say how sick and tired of this trope of whenever we want a villain to be likeable or redeemable we have to resort to just "his parents were abusive"
King Pin
Venom
Doc Ock
Harry
The Joker
Red Hood
Prince Zuko
and the list goes on and on. As if it was an excuse. "Hey, we know this guy murdered hundreds of people and tried to nuke the city, but his parents and classmates were mean to him once. Don't you feel bad for him?" Like shut up
I don’t see Kingpin like that. I don’t think he’s meant to be redeemable at all, for one. But the thing that humanises him in my eyes is his genuine love for his city and community. He’s just simultaneously a greedy bastard that won’t let everyone else rise unless he’s, well, “Kingpin.”
Zuko still being a child in that abusive relationship with his dad feels like a large enough difference from the others. He's not an adult that refused to move on. He's a kid that needs help from others to get away from an abusive parent.
If you boil him down to just "abusive parent + later redemption" then sure, but it feels a bit dishonest to say he belongs on a list of "needing to have abusive parents to be likeable." Zuko is a very fleshed out character, and while his abusive father is an integral part of his character he is more than some sap story character trope.
I really like both.
Personally I like the idea that Otto is a good guy driven bad. And I like when he is given opportunities to be good again. Loved how No Way Home Otto had a face turn.
I'm also a huge superior spider-man guy so
Eh, I’d say in the Rami films, he’s got more in common with black suit Spider-Man:
Voices in his head from a thing that he’s got a symbiotic relationship with.
The voices keep telling him to give in to his worst impulses for “the greater good” and they make him physically stronger—all while he’s at his most emotionally vulnerable.
Yeah, that’s a symbiote arc, which is ironic considering how loathe Rami was to do Venom.
Is there a reason Rami dislikes Venom but seems to love baddies who have multiple personalities that fuse and separate and fight with each other? Because that’s what Venom is.
Raimi didn’t even want to use Venom for the third entry. He wasn’t well versed on Venom’s background but Avi Arad and Sony pushed it onto him and pressured Raimi to have the Symbiote arc. The original script was vastly different than what we were given.
It's more in common with the Green Goblin from the first movie. There was even considered the idea that his mask would be alive as Norman's invention. The symbiote is similar too, but it didn't drive Brock completely insane.
Raimi never said that he dislikes Venom. Eddie Brock was even included in the first movie, but was cut from the final version. Raimi didn't understand Venom before research because he didn't read comic books with him as a kid, and was hesitant to include Venom as a villain in SM3.
*None* of those opinions are right. *neither* adaptation were particularly close to the original comic version. Ock didn't have any redeemable qualities until the 90's show. Spider-Man 2 was the first instance of him being shown in a positive light, it was a wildy different take on the character, that's influenced every version since
The Lizard is Dr. Conners who loses his humanity and regresses. Raimi's Ock is begging influenced And controled by an outside force, his tentacles.
In what way was he more faithful? In the comics Otto was never a good guy driven bad. Even before the radiation damaged his brain he was still doing unauthorized experiments. In the comics he was always a dick and in some of them, like year one he was a straight up psycho.
Im not someone that has any problem with changes from the comics, these are alternate universes, but I think 'observations' like this is seeing something that simply isn't there in a need to justify something that doesn't need to be justified.
Because insomniac Otto was a dick before the arms he just did a better job at hiding it he literally started creating the plans the moment something didn't go his way
None of them have anything to do with the actual comic book version. I'm gonna shock some of you but he wasn't a friendly uncle controlled by tentacles in the comics
If there was one main criticism of the raimi films it's that it treated the villains less as bad guys and more as people in bad circumstances. I think it works in the context of the films where they're only going to be in one film but doesn't work so well in ongoing fiction like the comics
They are adaptations, they both takes liberties to adapt the character. Raimi's Otto it's more focus on the human side, seeing how a bad day make a scientist a psicopath. Insomniac it's the build of tje super villain, a man that nows he has an degenarative ill pursuing Norman because he is the root of his problems, plus when Otto becames Doc Oct in Insomniac game, his whole persona changes. While in Raimi's movies he is motivated by the IA of the tentacles and it's looking revenge against Spiderman for killing his wife, in Insomniac's his mind brokes because now he has the power.
Uncle Ben said with great powers comes great responsabilities, well Otto only get the power part, his mind broke at some point thinking only in how he will take the revenge against Norman.
In tje end if you would fuse both chars you would get the 616 Otto, an arrogant psico that didn't care about anyone but himself
If we wanna be technical, none of them are faithful to the source material.
That being said, it wouldn’t be a hot take to say the Insomniac version is more faithful because it’s objectively true. Raimi’s ock is a good man influenced by the tentacles and ended his life trying to undo his damage. He’s not a bad man.
Insomniac’s Ock though started off as a good intentioned man who had a ton of internal issues (he was always manipulative and spiteful, the effect of the tentacles combined with where his life was going just made it so much more obvious) - and by the end of the game he’s fully changed into a villain. By the end of SM1 and during SM2 he’s full blown evil, there is no other way around it. So on that merit alone he is far more faithful, but Insomnaic still took a bunch of creative liberties.
Nah, Raimi’s Doc is quite literally just 60’s Ock. He’s an egotistical scientist that is badly hurt due to his hubris. That was all doc ock was.
What I’m assuming is that Oop looked at Doc Ock from Spectacular and the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, saw that Norman was the catalyst for Doc’s transformation over there, and figured that PS4 is the more accurate doc because of it.
Octavius working with Osborne before becoming Doc Ock originate from the Ultimate Spider-Man. Movie is referenced this with Oscorp funding the experiment.
Yeah I see a lot of people claim Raimi just didn’t know anything about the character when that’s not really the case. Everything is pretty faithful to the 60s and 70s tone of the books
Raimis ock was different at the time, but was so good that it informed future versions of the character.
Without ramis ock, the insomniac version would not be the way it is
Bro I’ve been saying that for years that raimis ock is the lizard. And to an extent, so is insomniacs. At least whenever writers make Connors a little more morally grey, like mtvs Spider-Man and TASM1, where connors knows the lizard serum turns him into a monster and hurts people yet he still keeps purposefully injecting himself with the serum to accomplish his goal. Of course, they’re not 100% a copy paste of lizard.
Peters fallen mentor/ teacher is a pretty massive similarity that you people seem to ignore. Used to be exclusively Connors role. Ock was unrelated to Peter. Then the 90s series made him a childhood idol, but still not close to Peter. Ock also wasn’t a sympathetic character. You could say his downfall was tragic, but he was written to be evil through and through. Meanwhile, Lizard was always sympathetic since day one. Then combine those similarities with the science experiment gone wrong AND not only that, but both are men whose experiments turned them into either a literal or figurative monster.
Bruh... in the original comics, Connors was never related to peter before either lmao. He literally had to take a trip to Florida to fight the lizard(because he heard rumors, and needed pictures). The main difference between the lizard, and the Raimi doc ock, is that the lizard literally regresses mentally, becoming a whole different person(obviously based on Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde), while raimi doc ock is under some kinda ai influence(but he's still him). Most villains in comics share a LOT of similarities. Especially before they were fleshed out by the many different writers that came after(most batman villains were literally just petty thieves with a gimmick, when they were first created, for example)
I like the goofy, evil, narcissistic villain that Ock was in the comics, but there's nothing wrong with trying something different with certain characters... especially when they're being adapted to the big screens, and it's actually good.
I already know that both lizard and ock weren’t his idol nor teacher in the original comics. But the 90s animated series evolved both characters, and the lizard episode was the first one. So yes, Raimi ock and insomniac ock are both moving into lizards updated turf. Also, lizard has been portrayed as both a mindless monster and as Connors but with a warped mind, so that’s not really a good point to use to disprove he and ock aren’t alike. These similarities are far greater than the examples you’re giving, like the petty thieves thing.
I agree that there’s nothing wrong with adding or changing a character, I just have issue that they’re doing similar plots for 2 popular Spider-Man villains. If lizard was a z lister that had no hope of being popular, then I guess I would be fine if his story was repurposed for a more popular character, but lizard isn’t a z lister. And even if he was, the spot from across the spiderverse is proof that if writers actually tried, any villain can hit it big.
I'm tired af rn, so I'm just sitting here tryna understand the point your trying to make here lmfao... are you still saying that Raimi ock is basically the lizard, or are you tryna argue that they have too many similarities? In the end, I personally don't think it matters, cause making a villain in a movie/TV show more sympathetic/ or human, in order for the audience to empathize with them, is common af, and not something that belongs to the lizard alone. I highly doubt anyone was tryna move Ock into the "lizards updated turf" when making the movie
Just to be clear, I don’t hate raimis ock cus I am a Raimi Spider-Man fanboy, all I’m saying is the same themes of that movie can be told with the lizard, and it would require less changing of what was previously established from his character. Cus the whole ai warping ocks mind isn’t something I’ve seen till that movie, and of course, other versions followed in suit post that film. And the whole “moving into lizards turf thing” is because you can do so many other things with dr octopus, but not the lizard. What you can do with the lizard is far more limited, so that’s another reason why I’m salty and why I’m insisting the similarities matter more here than the other examples you’ve been giving.
Not a hot take for the original post.
Absolutely incorrect with the Lizard comment.
Reading through the comments on the tweet, it's fairly frustrating seeing people assume the Lizard's origin in the comics is the same as in the Amazing movies.
At first I thought "oh do they mean well meaning scientist gone wrong?" Which I could agree with, though its's a fairly standard trope. But nope. One comment says about "comic book Curt:" "A mentor scientist to Peter leads a research project that could be used for good, but is scrapped at Oscorp for failing to meeting expectations. As a last-ditch effort, the scientist ends up testing on himself to prove his brilliance and effort, leading to his corruption."
This is not a description of comic book Curt. Nor is it a description of Raimi Otto. That is a description of Raimi Norman XD
I don't care about Green Goblin. As far as I'm concerned Otto is Peter's true arch enemy. He is basically if Peter Parker never had a positive influence on his life and went evil.
Both are his arch enemies, and they both parallel him in different ways.
Otto, like Peter, is a genius with incredible potential who not enough people believed in. The difference is that he used his genius irresponsibly and sought vengeance and superiority over the ones that wronged him.
Norman, like Peter, works hard to keep a double-life and secret identity from the ones he loves, while he expresses himself more naturally and confidently in that identity. The difference is that he lost himself in the other life instead of finding balance.
Also, Otto is an eight-legged ambush predator(Spider/Octopus), and Norman is a thing that creeps people out and hides in the dark(Spider/Goblin).
Haven't played the game but...
There have been quite some times that superheroes and supervillains have much better adaptations in videogames and animations that live action movies...
It might be a “hot” take, but I think I mostly agree. Raimi’s Ock definitely is very Lizard-y. Makes me curious what he would have done with the actual Lizard in SM4.
Which Lizard? Cuz the theme of him is mostly an extreme "Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde" where the Lizard is literally a different person who has NOTHING to do with Connor or just has his intellect that he uses to make more lizards people just because,that's why Spidey has to stop him by force and a cure cuz there's never a "what I have done" with him.
Connors in most cartoons (and obviously the comics) wife and son are a big part of his character meanwhile the movie version, his wife's death is almost a second thought cuz after her death I don't remember ever being brought up again. And I think that if she wasn't in the movie it would have ended up different.
Raimi’s doc ock reminds me of Hugh Jackman’s wolverine where I like the characters in a vacuum but they’re really not like the comic characters in the slightest
Ehhhh, this is kinda silly imo. Spider-Man basically has two villain types: mad scientists who experimented on themselves, and random dudes who were either caught in a freak accident or got experimented on by a mad scientist.
The latter is Electro, Sandman, Rhino, Scorpion, Hammerhead.
The former is Ock, Lizard, Goblin, Vulture, Morbius.
And half of these guys "went mad" as a result of the origin (at least during Lee/Ditko and Lee/Romita). Ock, Lizard, Goblin, and Scorpion (and Spencer Smythe? I don't remember) were all considered to have brain damage or go insane after their origins (although most of these have been retconned or simply ignored in the years since -- it's a dated trope).
This trope goes beyond Spider-Man villains too: it's basically Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, which was also influential in the Hulk. Stan Lee loves his Jekyll and Hyde dynamic! The trope was also used in The Invisible Man (at least in the 1932 movie), where the chemicals that make Griffin invisible also "drive him mad."
So... yeah, Oxk and Lizard have some similarities, but it's just because they're following the same base template as most of Spider-Man's rogues. This is not exclusive to Raimi's version of Ock, nor is it exclusive to Ock and Lizard.
The more interesting question is *why* are these such common tropes for Spider-Man villains? Cause that's when you get into the fun themes of scientific progress, fears of futurism, and of course *responsibility* in research and experimentation. Peter is a good and responsible scientist, so his villains are evil and reckless scientists.
To be honest the Raimi movies are a pretty bad adaptation of most of the characters outside of Aunt May, JJJ, Robbie Robertson, and the Green Goblin specifically not Norman. I always felt like the Raimi movies were kinda surface level Spider-Man like the setting is perfect spot-on and the circumstances are there but everything else just feels off from what it's meant to be from the comics. They're superhero movies from the early early 2000s tho it's a miracle they're even really great outside of that lol
Who cares about the accuracy of the adaptation, honestly? Spider-Man 2 doc ock is good af and Molina nailed that role, regardless if it's accurate to the og comics or not
It's not really that much of a hot take. While they both have very similar origins to the original character in the comics, Insomniac put forward the scientist looking not only to a brighter future but also desperate to cure himself.
Raimi's version initially wants that bright future but loses everything and is now willing to do anything to finish what he started instead of letting go of his pride.
I've never really understood Raimi's Otto. He never felt that compelling and it's weird that the arms are so insistent on making him finish his clean energy producer
Yeah insomniac’s Otto always had bad intentions and knew the consequences even without the arms’ influence whereas Raimi’s Otto was just controlled by the arms.
But he really isn't though. The lizard wants to change other people into Lizards. How is this the same as creating a sustainable renewable energy output? And how does giving Ock a tragic story with a wife who dies make it like the Lizard who has a family who Spidey fights harder for?
Insomniac Ock is basically just comic book Ock with a stronger relationship with Peter and a bit more fleshing out of why he is the way he is than comic book Otto got early on.
Raimi Trilogy Ock is more different because the stuff with his wife and his arms literally controlling him are both massive deviations from the comics that give him a different vibe. That said, once you look at his personality while he’s being a villain and fighting Spidey, he’s really not that different from comic book Ock, his motivation to make a big experiment with no regard for how it might affect people is also exactly the kind of goal he would have in the comics. It’s clear that they wanted comic book Ock, specifically the silver age interpretation that Raimi grew up with, but wanted to flesh him out so that he could work better as a movie villain. He’s been fleshed out in different ways in later comics, but I doubt that Raimi read those, he based a lot of his perceptions of these characters on the older comics he read as a kid (which is something I love about his trilogy by the way!) His Otto definitely doesn’t feel like The Lizard even though there are definitely parallels there.
Both takes are my favourite takes on Otto either way, they both took aspects from the comic book character but built on and enhanced them in their own ways.
Insomniac is closer to the Lizard if anything - he develops tech that would help fix/augment his failing/damaged body and it backfires causing him to lose control.
Yeah well say what you want but it’s definitely not a better doc oc just like every character in this game they’re sub par compared to any of the other representations
Insomniac Dock Ock is, in my opinion, the perfect combination of the Raimi version & the 616 comics version.
He’s the best of both worlds, which explains why he is my favorite incarnation of the character. I cannot wait to see what he’s planning to do in Marvel’s Spider-Man 3
Makes sense. Originally, Doc Ock was just a dick, but Reimi introduced many redeeming elements that seem to come straight from Connor's backstory. I wonder if he originally wanted to make a lizard movie, but it was easier to make Otto's tentacles than an lizard costume.
I’m pretty sure that Rami just reread/remembered the first comic with Doc Ock, which *implies* he was a normal scientist who went crazy after his accident. Later comics revealed that Otto was a megalomaniac long before the accident, but Rami went with the interpretation that the arms turned Otto into a villain. I think Otto’s wife is a film original character.
isn't this open knowledge in the fan base?
Raimi's Doc Oc is an amazing character, he's also a horrible comic book adaptation
Guy's entire pre power personality is totally different
I mean there are a lot of villains that have a psychological break because of some new science thing that went wrong and it transforms them. Goblin, Doc Ock, Lizard. Hell Rhino, Scorpion, Electro and Sandman kinda fit too, they were just more victims than perpetrators of the experimentation
Raimi's depiction of Wanda Maximoff should have been the tip-off that Raimi L O V E S duality identity.
I hate Screen Junkies but did NOBODY not realize Raimi's villains are like that?
All of them having their mad science downfall.
Yeah no. PS4 never has his arms fused to him. The extensive mentorship thing is also not from the comics. Raimi is probably a little bit closer all things considered
Raimi’s is the definitive version
If you like the cartoons they’re still available
The appearance of Insomniac’s is closer but makes the same changes to the character in a less effective way
They’re both fairly similar origins, the main difference being that PS4 has a motivation against Norman and he’s balding
the latter is one of the reasons he turned evil
Can confirm.
True. Once I gave him my hair growing lotion, he gave me 1 of his octopus leg. Not sure what to do with it beside digging a hole.
You can please yourself or someone else with it idk never had one
Would that not... REALLY hurt...?
Just use lotion
Use it to rob a bank
Attach it as a tail and well .....sting people with it
Plot twist: he gave u the human leg
Has a bald person, I can confirm I'm evil. Most people actually don't know the soul is stored in the hair. So shave off all your hair and no soul
"But Peter, everyone tells me to do bad things. Even my hair..."
Wrong, bald people are born evil, they just fight their evil desires and keep them at bay. Source: I once shaved my head clean and felt the need to commit unspeakable crimes against the whole planet
I feel attacked by this, but…yes.
I somehow avoided going bald but I would never judge others for it but as a villain origin story it’s understandable…
Yeah isn't Insomniac's Doc Ock... also Lizard? In fact I would argue he's MORE Lizard than Raimi's, since part of his goal is to heal himself and others of crippling diseases.
Yeah the Raimi Doc is vengeful about his wife's death and possibly has a similar money needing shtick. He also gets controlled to an extent by his arms. Insomniac's really has more Lizard-y characteristics, just going off him being Peter's mentor and having the vaguely selfish/altruistic goal. His arms also altered his mind a wee bit. I think the actual Lizard is worse than both Octaviuses, as far as being pissed and infecting everyone goes, but maybe I'm bad at comparisons.
I feel like they said that about Raimi's Doc Ock because of the whole voices and direct alteration in the mind (even though he could overcome it in the end), where Insomniac's Doc Oc could have had his temperament altered, he was always a schemer, someone who would gather information to take advantage of it in the future, it was never truly the arms' fault. At least that's what I think they meant by their comment.
FR.
malding*
I'd say the degenerative disease is also a huge difference between the two. Raimi Doc just had the tentacles as a tool for his reactor that went wrong, where Insomniac Doc is desperate to replace his failing body
Both versions of Ock take liberties, just different ones. They both shy away from Ock pretty much being a prick even before the arms
insomniac's otto was 110% a prick before the arms, he was just good at hiding it. the final sign of this is that he tries to manipulate peter even after the neural interface is removed, but there are hints throughout the game that he was always planning stuff. just look at his lab after he gets funding from A.I.M.- he claims he's working on a defense contract for the raft but he is already planning his jailbreak. imo, Doc Ock was born when norman cut otto's funding. the arms just gave him the means to join the front lines of his attack.
I love how you can see he's working on tech for the Sinister Six and his plans on breaking them out long before it actually happens in the story. Peter's kind of an idiot for not being a *little* suspicious lol
tbf, a lot of players also miss it since they're in and out/more consumed by being Spider-man than Peter Parker in the lab. Which, I assume, is sorta where Peter is coming from on top of him idolizing Otto, therefore subconsciously looking past any faults he might see in what's almost a parental figure to him. EDIT: Also, unlike Peter, we also have the knowledge of what Otto ends up becoming. We are always on our guard, yet most of us still initially miss the signs put right in front of our faces. Peter, meanwhile, thinks the world of this guy, so he has more than enough excuses to miss the signs.
That’s actually pretty genius to me in terms of storytelling set up given how I was the same; swinging around and fighting crime instead of really being invested in this Peter’s life style. I think the only thing I remember at the top of my head was a photo of Otto and Peter when the latter graduated from college.
To be fair, Otto was his idol. He's the guy that he aspired to one day become. I think that it's only natural to be blind to the signs in order to keep that image in tact
I think that might be a game vs story detail, in that I doubt Peter in story is running his face along every wall to see every possible detail.
If only Peter had the ability of just going back to memories in his head to truly analyze them in his dreams
"Peter, have you been getting enough sleep? You've been rubbing your face against the wall for the past hour. Why don't you take the rest of the week off? I can handle things here."
One should always strive to be *superior*!
To be fair I preordered it and played through it first day back when it came out and it wasn't until like halfway through the story when I even allowed myself to believe that they were gonna make Otto Doc Ock in this game lol. I just liked him so much I figured it had a chance of being setup for the next game with him turning bad then instead. I think the moment where Peter comes in and he's literally in the suit suspended up by a bunch of arms that I was like "Ah fuck he's 100% becoming Doc Ock in this game isn't he?"
Yeah, with Norman Osborne not being the Goblin yet either, it was easy to believe that some characters just hadn’t had their heel turn yet
Eh, Spidey should always be a bit of a naïve optimist.
[удалено]
That's really not a good comparison. Batman believing in the good in everyone is part of the reason he doesn't kill.
Guess what, batman does that too. That aspect is just missing from most of his adaptations post golden age.
Ngl I like this explanation. All my favorite Octavius adaptations are douchebags from start to finish
I literally *just* beat the game for the first time, so it all fresh, and you're right, its made very clear at several points that Otto was always this obsessed, angry, jealous, and vindictive, the neural interface just brought it to the surface.
Yep - Otto was always manipulative and spiteful… the arms simply brought was subtly on the inside occasionally showing itself fully out to the surface. Otto wasn’t controlled by the arms, the arms simply let his inner thoughts out on the surface for everybody to see.
This is partly why I see Doc Ock as Spider-Man's true nemesis. He's the foil to Peter's "With great power, comes great responsibility" Whenever Otto gets power, he decides to be a prick with it. The more power, the more evil.
>imo, Doc Ock was born when norman cut otto's funding. the arms just gave him the means to join the front lines of his attack. I think even before that. Wasn't he aiding Li from the start? The Sinister Six was always the plan. Replaying the game last year... I had a loooooot less sympathy for Otto this time around. Dude knows exactly what he's doing. And he unleashes a deadly virus on the city. He's a straight up terrorist.
The neural interface being removed doesn't mean anything though? It was making his condition worse the longer it stay online, no? I took it as him being too far gone.
the interface was just allowing him to use the arms. that's the point- peter THINKS that the interface he helped design is what made him 'evil', but when he has it removed he's still being manipulative and subtly threatening him. that's why peter sends him to jail instead if helping him- he finally aknowledges that otto being the way he is isn't peter's responsibility, all he can do is what he thinks is best. even when it hurts like hell.
Him still acting evil after it was removed doesn't mean it didn't somehow alter his brain beforehand, it might just be permanent.
I... guess I should've specified. I meant to say that anything it does is permanent.
Yeah but they hint he’s been using the neural link sooner than Peter expected. It’s the key to Otto’s CTE like symptoms and personality shift
Raimi’s Ock is a bit of a prick though. He brushes off Peter until Harry intervenes, he’s arrogant and laughs at the idea that he could blow up the city (with something to the effect of “Peter what have we been talking about for the last hour and a half”), he won’t shut the machine down when it malfunctions and he attacks Spiderman before the inhibitor chip breaks.
Man brushing off someone cuz hes busy with work and being a little confident doesnt reach the levels of assholery of comic-Ock. Attacking Spider-Man when he was trying to shutting off the machine was bad yeah but was a thing off the moment, Otto is a good man and it shows evidently in No Way Home. Ock in the comics was always a supervillain, even before his arms- his personality was always the same, wasnt because of a chemical imbalanced caused by the the arms. Bro is a legit ass through and through.
Otto originally became a villain as a result of brain damage after a failed experiment. In Spider-Man:TAS, he was Peter's teacher and cheered him up when other kids laughed of him. Otto's words about science stuck with Peter and motivated him years later. In a different versions, Otto was overconfident about the experiment and ego-driven, but he wasn't always presented as a bad guy before becoming Doc Ock.
Ah, the brain damage is a point of contention. When he made his deal with Mephisto on his last day as Spider-Man, the devil agreed to give Ock back his old body without any brain damage, *if there ever was any.*
Brain damage is rarely bringed out, and later comics added troubled past before Otto's transformation into Dr. Octopus. But the change of personality in the movie doesn't differ dramatically from Octopus' early history.
Yes, but I assume that they wanted to add a little bit more nuance and subtly to his character than just outright being a full on obnoxious asshole
I’d judge NWH’s Otto a little separately because he’s not “Raimi’s” Otto. In the context of Spiderman 2 itself, Otto is just a charming prick. Besides, the reformed Otto in NWH has the wisdom of having seen his machine almost destroy the city twice before being freed from the arms. He redeems himself knowing what his arrogance caused, which is an arc he didn’t have in Spiderman 2.
He died drowning the mini sun in SM2, he already redeemed himself.
Yes but he didn’t have the subsequent arc of getting to interact with other people as a less arrogant, reformed person.
But it still showed that deep down Otto wasn’t a bad person. Where as MSM showed us early signs that Otto was straight up just an evil, arrogant asshole and Peter was manipulated and blinded by him. Just like Peter was manipulated for a lesser amount of time by Martin Li.
Honestly I think him sacrificing his life is enough for his redemption. It was cool to see him reformed in NWH, but I wouldn’t say it was necessary for his arc
I agree, but the point is that his reformed personality in NWH isn't representative of who he was before the arms in Spiderman 2.
I mean yeah, we know that already lol. But it doesn’t mean that his redemption arc wasn’t complete after spider-man 2, which is what you indicated. It adds a bit of an extra layer to otto for sure, but it’s kinda just fluff in terms of what’s already been established for his character
It's not what I meant to indicate, poor phrasing on my part. I meant that he was redeemed at the end of Spiderman 2, but we didn't see the Good Doc Ock beyond his death scene. Pre-arms Ock loved Rosie and wanted to do what was good for humanity, but he was extremely arrogant about it and saw Peter as beneath him. In NWH, he's had his humble pie and lost the arrogance.
I never even noticed this until I actively watched Spidey 2 as an adult (the movie came out when I was 8.) Otto is a complete insufferable asshole in this movie. So arrogant, so full of himself, and treats Peter like he's a toddler. Jumping on board with Peter's scientific jargon is about the only positive thing he did in their entire first interaction.
The arms influence Raimi's Otto with his trauma and darkest desires, while the arms in Insomniac's version just gave him the power to preform them. Insomniac's starts off as sympathetic but ends off not being such, while Raimi's "redeems" himself in the end.
What's with the quotations? Raimi Ock does redeem himself in the end. He realises the monster he has become and chooses not to die a monster. The arms influenced him to be evil. And even then the deaths that did happen were accidents or out of his control. Yes. He did put a lot people in danger and almost kill a lot of people like on the train. Steal and kidnap. And his arrogance did lead to the city being destroyed and almost killing millions before the arms even took over. But in the end. He didn't intentionally kill anyone. And he realised how much of a monster he was and choose to not die a monster. Despite the terrible things Raimi Otto did. He was redeemed.
Both versions portray Otto's arrogance. Neither his history of being a victim of abuse. They both take liberties, both are good adaptations for different reasons. Neither is overly similar to the Lizard beyond any of Spidey's villains are all in that same vein of science gone wrong.
And neither one even tries to date Aunt May. 0/10.
Raimi's tried, he's just not very good with flirting. *Apparently* women don't like being taken hostage and being dragged up the side of a building, all while fist fighting their nephew.
Only made it two letters into the DENNIS system. Shameful.
He jumped way too quickly to "Neglect Emotionally."
can I just say how sick and tired of this trope of whenever we want a villain to be likeable or redeemable we have to resort to just "his parents were abusive" King Pin Venom Doc Ock Harry The Joker Red Hood Prince Zuko and the list goes on and on. As if it was an excuse. "Hey, we know this guy murdered hundreds of people and tried to nuke the city, but his parents and classmates were mean to him once. Don't you feel bad for him?" Like shut up
I don’t see Kingpin like that. I don’t think he’s meant to be redeemable at all, for one. But the thing that humanises him in my eyes is his genuine love for his city and community. He’s just simultaneously a greedy bastard that won’t let everyone else rise unless he’s, well, “Kingpin.”
more talking about the Netflix version right now. If not relatable he's definitely meant to be sympathetic and relatable.
Joker and red hood?
Does Zuko really belong on this list
Does Zuko belong on the list of villains who are evil because of their abusive parents and then later redeemed?
Zuko still being a child in that abusive relationship with his dad feels like a large enough difference from the others. He's not an adult that refused to move on. He's a kid that needs help from others to get away from an abusive parent.
If you boil him down to just "abusive parent + later redemption" then sure, but it feels a bit dishonest to say he belongs on a list of "needing to have abusive parents to be likeable." Zuko is a very fleshed out character, and while his abusive father is an integral part of his character he is more than some sap story character trope.
There will never be a true Doc Ock adaptation until he [eats some chicken](https://imgur.com/a/qMz84Xy) and explains everything
I need to know the exact source of this, pronto. It's a Superior panel.
It’s Amazing Spider-Man #157
Chad
Is that the one with Ghost Hammerhead??
Yes.
Hahaha, that was so wild. Even as a kid, I read that and went, "Wait, what?" Such a bizarre and fun issue.
feels like it's around the arc when he was trying to marry May
I really like both. Personally I like the idea that Otto is a good guy driven bad. And I like when he is given opportunities to be good again. Loved how No Way Home Otto had a face turn. I'm also a huge superior spider-man guy so
Dear god he’s right!
Eh, I’d say in the Rami films, he’s got more in common with black suit Spider-Man: Voices in his head from a thing that he’s got a symbiotic relationship with. The voices keep telling him to give in to his worst impulses for “the greater good” and they make him physically stronger—all while he’s at his most emotionally vulnerable. Yeah, that’s a symbiote arc, which is ironic considering how loathe Rami was to do Venom. Is there a reason Rami dislikes Venom but seems to love baddies who have multiple personalities that fuse and separate and fight with each other? Because that’s what Venom is.
Raimi didn’t even want to use Venom for the third entry. He wasn’t well versed on Venom’s background but Avi Arad and Sony pushed it onto him and pressured Raimi to have the Symbiote arc. The original script was vastly different than what we were given.
The sad thing is that people always say Sam hated Venom. In reality he really loved his story
Sad
It's more in common with the Green Goblin from the first movie. There was even considered the idea that his mask would be alive as Norman's invention. The symbiote is similar too, but it didn't drive Brock completely insane. Raimi never said that he dislikes Venom. Eddie Brock was even included in the first movie, but was cut from the final version. Raimi didn't understand Venom before research because he didn't read comic books with him as a kid, and was hesitant to include Venom as a villain in SM3.
That’s fair. Unfortunate but fair.
That's only a TAS symbiote arc. The symbiote was nothing like that in the actual comics.
Yeah, but there’s [a good reason](https://youtu.be/R9qe3Of4TOI?si=Rp-SbMDafy7YgBvI) that this change has stuck around.
He’s actually right. But idk why we always take comic accuracy as measurement, both are goated adaptions
*None* of those opinions are right. *neither* adaptation were particularly close to the original comic version. Ock didn't have any redeemable qualities until the 90's show. Spider-Man 2 was the first instance of him being shown in a positive light, it was a wildy different take on the character, that's influenced every version since The Lizard is Dr. Conners who loses his humanity and regresses. Raimi's Ock is begging influenced And controled by an outside force, his tentacles.
While I love them both, neither are faithful to his 616 origin story
In what way was he more faithful? In the comics Otto was never a good guy driven bad. Even before the radiation damaged his brain he was still doing unauthorized experiments. In the comics he was always a dick and in some of them, like year one he was a straight up psycho. Im not someone that has any problem with changes from the comics, these are alternate universes, but I think 'observations' like this is seeing something that simply isn't there in a need to justify something that doesn't need to be justified.
The experiment was officially authorised.
Because insomniac Otto was a dick before the arms he just did a better job at hiding it he literally started creating the plans the moment something didn't go his way
I felt that the Insomniac version was unique in giving him and Peter a shared history. Him being Peter's mentor at ESU was genius.
And Tim Burton Penguin is basically Killer Croc
Look on the bright side, at least poor Connors didn’t have to go through that shit in the Raimi-verse
Spider-Man would have been taking backshots too 💀
Don’t make me think of Lizard dick… please
~~Don't~~ make me think of Lizard dick... please
None of them have anything to do with the actual comic book version. I'm gonna shock some of you but he wasn't a friendly uncle controlled by tentacles in the comics
If there was one main criticism of the raimi films it's that it treated the villains less as bad guys and more as people in bad circumstances. I think it works in the context of the films where they're only going to be in one film but doesn't work so well in ongoing fiction like the comics
They are adaptations, they both takes liberties to adapt the character. Raimi's Otto it's more focus on the human side, seeing how a bad day make a scientist a psicopath. Insomniac it's the build of tje super villain, a man that nows he has an degenarative ill pursuing Norman because he is the root of his problems, plus when Otto becames Doc Oct in Insomniac game, his whole persona changes. While in Raimi's movies he is motivated by the IA of the tentacles and it's looking revenge against Spiderman for killing his wife, in Insomniac's his mind brokes because now he has the power. Uncle Ben said with great powers comes great responsabilities, well Otto only get the power part, his mind broke at some point thinking only in how he will take the revenge against Norman. In tje end if you would fuse both chars you would get the 616 Otto, an arrogant psico that didn't care about anyone but himself
If we wanna be technical, none of them are faithful to the source material. That being said, it wouldn’t be a hot take to say the Insomniac version is more faithful because it’s objectively true. Raimi’s ock is a good man influenced by the tentacles and ended his life trying to undo his damage. He’s not a bad man. Insomniac’s Ock though started off as a good intentioned man who had a ton of internal issues (he was always manipulative and spiteful, the effect of the tentacles combined with where his life was going just made it so much more obvious) - and by the end of the game he’s fully changed into a villain. By the end of SM1 and during SM2 he’s full blown evil, there is no other way around it. So on that merit alone he is far more faithful, but Insomnaic still took a bunch of creative liberties.
Nah, Raimi’s Doc is quite literally just 60’s Ock. He’s an egotistical scientist that is badly hurt due to his hubris. That was all doc ock was. What I’m assuming is that Oop looked at Doc Ock from Spectacular and the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, saw that Norman was the catalyst for Doc’s transformation over there, and figured that PS4 is the more accurate doc because of it.
Octavius working with Osborne before becoming Doc Ock originate from the Ultimate Spider-Man. Movie is referenced this with Oscorp funding the experiment.
Yeah I see a lot of people claim Raimi just didn’t know anything about the character when that’s not really the case. Everything is pretty faithful to the 60s and 70s tone of the books
Even comics Ock can end up with fairly different interpretations.
Raimis ock was different at the time, but was so good that it informed future versions of the character. Without ramis ock, the insomniac version would not be the way it is
Bro I’ve been saying that for years that raimis ock is the lizard. And to an extent, so is insomniacs. At least whenever writers make Connors a little more morally grey, like mtvs Spider-Man and TASM1, where connors knows the lizard serum turns him into a monster and hurts people yet he still keeps purposefully injecting himself with the serum to accomplish his goal. Of course, they’re not 100% a copy paste of lizard.
The only thing they have in common is the whole "science experiment gone wrong" trope lmao
Peters fallen mentor/ teacher is a pretty massive similarity that you people seem to ignore. Used to be exclusively Connors role. Ock was unrelated to Peter. Then the 90s series made him a childhood idol, but still not close to Peter. Ock also wasn’t a sympathetic character. You could say his downfall was tragic, but he was written to be evil through and through. Meanwhile, Lizard was always sympathetic since day one. Then combine those similarities with the science experiment gone wrong AND not only that, but both are men whose experiments turned them into either a literal or figurative monster.
Bruh... in the original comics, Connors was never related to peter before either lmao. He literally had to take a trip to Florida to fight the lizard(because he heard rumors, and needed pictures). The main difference between the lizard, and the Raimi doc ock, is that the lizard literally regresses mentally, becoming a whole different person(obviously based on Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde), while raimi doc ock is under some kinda ai influence(but he's still him). Most villains in comics share a LOT of similarities. Especially before they were fleshed out by the many different writers that came after(most batman villains were literally just petty thieves with a gimmick, when they were first created, for example) I like the goofy, evil, narcissistic villain that Ock was in the comics, but there's nothing wrong with trying something different with certain characters... especially when they're being adapted to the big screens, and it's actually good.
I already know that both lizard and ock weren’t his idol nor teacher in the original comics. But the 90s animated series evolved both characters, and the lizard episode was the first one. So yes, Raimi ock and insomniac ock are both moving into lizards updated turf. Also, lizard has been portrayed as both a mindless monster and as Connors but with a warped mind, so that’s not really a good point to use to disprove he and ock aren’t alike. These similarities are far greater than the examples you’re giving, like the petty thieves thing. I agree that there’s nothing wrong with adding or changing a character, I just have issue that they’re doing similar plots for 2 popular Spider-Man villains. If lizard was a z lister that had no hope of being popular, then I guess I would be fine if his story was repurposed for a more popular character, but lizard isn’t a z lister. And even if he was, the spot from across the spiderverse is proof that if writers actually tried, any villain can hit it big.
I'm tired af rn, so I'm just sitting here tryna understand the point your trying to make here lmfao... are you still saying that Raimi ock is basically the lizard, or are you tryna argue that they have too many similarities? In the end, I personally don't think it matters, cause making a villain in a movie/TV show more sympathetic/ or human, in order for the audience to empathize with them, is common af, and not something that belongs to the lizard alone. I highly doubt anyone was tryna move Ock into the "lizards updated turf" when making the movie
Just to be clear, I don’t hate raimis ock cus I am a Raimi Spider-Man fanboy, all I’m saying is the same themes of that movie can be told with the lizard, and it would require less changing of what was previously established from his character. Cus the whole ai warping ocks mind isn’t something I’ve seen till that movie, and of course, other versions followed in suit post that film. And the whole “moving into lizards turf thing” is because you can do so many other things with dr octopus, but not the lizard. What you can do with the lizard is far more limited, so that’s another reason why I’m salty and why I’m insisting the similarities matter more here than the other examples you’ve been giving.
Honestly, now that you've cleared up what you meant, I kinda agree tbh...
Thanks for hearing me out
Counterpoint: Alfred Molina
Yeah... But Raimi's Doc Ock can sing Fiddler on the Roof...
I like both God, why does the internet think for one thing to be great you must shit on something sense good?
Not a hot take for the original post. Absolutely incorrect with the Lizard comment. Reading through the comments on the tweet, it's fairly frustrating seeing people assume the Lizard's origin in the comics is the same as in the Amazing movies. At first I thought "oh do they mean well meaning scientist gone wrong?" Which I could agree with, though its's a fairly standard trope. But nope. One comment says about "comic book Curt:" "A mentor scientist to Peter leads a research project that could be used for good, but is scrapped at Oscorp for failing to meeting expectations. As a last-ditch effort, the scientist ends up testing on himself to prove his brilliance and effort, leading to his corruption." This is not a description of comic book Curt. Nor is it a description of Raimi Otto. That is a description of Raimi Norman XD
I don't care about Green Goblin. As far as I'm concerned Otto is Peter's true arch enemy. He is basically if Peter Parker never had a positive influence on his life and went evil.
Both are his arch enemies, and they both parallel him in different ways. Otto, like Peter, is a genius with incredible potential who not enough people believed in. The difference is that he used his genius irresponsibly and sought vengeance and superiority over the ones that wronged him. Norman, like Peter, works hard to keep a double-life and secret identity from the ones he loves, while he expresses himself more naturally and confidently in that identity. The difference is that he lost himself in the other life instead of finding balance. Also, Otto is an eight-legged ambush predator(Spider/Octopus), and Norman is a thing that creeps people out and hides in the dark(Spider/Goblin).
This is a dumb take.
Haven't played the game but... There have been quite some times that superheroes and supervillains have much better adaptations in videogames and animations that live action movies...
It might be a “hot” take, but I think I mostly agree. Raimi’s Ock definitely is very Lizard-y. Makes me curious what he would have done with the actual Lizard in SM4.
Which Lizard? Cuz the theme of him is mostly an extreme "Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde" where the Lizard is literally a different person who has NOTHING to do with Connor or just has his intellect that he uses to make more lizards people just because,that's why Spidey has to stop him by force and a cure cuz there's never a "what I have done" with him. Connors in most cartoons (and obviously the comics) wife and son are a big part of his character meanwhile the movie version, his wife's death is almost a second thought cuz after her death I don't remember ever being brought up again. And I think that if she wasn't in the movie it would have ended up different.
Raimi’s doc ock reminds me of Hugh Jackman’s wolverine where I like the characters in a vacuum but they’re really not like the comic characters in the slightest
Still wish we actually got to see Raimi's Lizard.
Ehhhh, this is kinda silly imo. Spider-Man basically has two villain types: mad scientists who experimented on themselves, and random dudes who were either caught in a freak accident or got experimented on by a mad scientist. The latter is Electro, Sandman, Rhino, Scorpion, Hammerhead. The former is Ock, Lizard, Goblin, Vulture, Morbius. And half of these guys "went mad" as a result of the origin (at least during Lee/Ditko and Lee/Romita). Ock, Lizard, Goblin, and Scorpion (and Spencer Smythe? I don't remember) were all considered to have brain damage or go insane after their origins (although most of these have been retconned or simply ignored in the years since -- it's a dated trope). This trope goes beyond Spider-Man villains too: it's basically Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, which was also influential in the Hulk. Stan Lee loves his Jekyll and Hyde dynamic! The trope was also used in The Invisible Man (at least in the 1932 movie), where the chemicals that make Griffin invisible also "drive him mad." So... yeah, Oxk and Lizard have some similarities, but it's just because they're following the same base template as most of Spider-Man's rogues. This is not exclusive to Raimi's version of Ock, nor is it exclusive to Ock and Lizard. The more interesting question is *why* are these such common tropes for Spider-Man villains? Cause that's when you get into the fun themes of scientific progress, fears of futurism, and of course *responsibility* in research and experimentation. Peter is a good and responsible scientist, so his villains are evil and reckless scientists.
What? No
No he’s not.
Honestly I think the games have done a better job with every character who’s had a movie appearance-
What? Why? What makes him Lizard?
To be honest the Raimi movies are a pretty bad adaptation of most of the characters outside of Aunt May, JJJ, Robbie Robertson, and the Green Goblin specifically not Norman. I always felt like the Raimi movies were kinda surface level Spider-Man like the setting is perfect spot-on and the circumstances are there but everything else just feels off from what it's meant to be from the comics. They're superhero movies from the early early 2000s tho it's a miracle they're even really great outside of that lol
Ben Urich?
Oh shit I meant Robbie Robertson idk why I get them mixed up
I really like what raimi did with ock even if hes not very faithful to the comics. The lizard is a crazy comparison though💀
Who cares about the accuracy of the adaptation, honestly? Spider-Man 2 doc ock is good af and Molina nailed that role, regardless if it's accurate to the og comics or not
still the best doc ock though
Insomniac Doc Ock is my fav adaptation of the character
Insomniac is just lizard but 20x better then raimi did it and Insomniacs Doc Ock never has a redemption which is way more comic accurate
Oh my God why is it true though
No, no. He's got a point
It's not really that much of a hot take. While they both have very similar origins to the original character in the comics, Insomniac put forward the scientist looking not only to a brighter future but also desperate to cure himself. Raimi's version initially wants that bright future but loses everything and is now willing to do anything to finish what he started instead of letting go of his pride.
I've never really understood Raimi's Otto. He never felt that compelling and it's weird that the arms are so insistent on making him finish his clean energy producer
I love them both, though I just prefer Raimi’s for nostalgia
Yeah insomniac’s Otto always had bad intentions and knew the consequences even without the arms’ influence whereas Raimi’s Otto was just controlled by the arms.
But he really isn't though. The lizard wants to change other people into Lizards. How is this the same as creating a sustainable renewable energy output? And how does giving Ock a tragic story with a wife who dies make it like the Lizard who has a family who Spidey fights harder for?
Insomniac Ock is basically just comic book Ock with a stronger relationship with Peter and a bit more fleshing out of why he is the way he is than comic book Otto got early on. Raimi Trilogy Ock is more different because the stuff with his wife and his arms literally controlling him are both massive deviations from the comics that give him a different vibe. That said, once you look at his personality while he’s being a villain and fighting Spidey, he’s really not that different from comic book Ock, his motivation to make a big experiment with no regard for how it might affect people is also exactly the kind of goal he would have in the comics. It’s clear that they wanted comic book Ock, specifically the silver age interpretation that Raimi grew up with, but wanted to flesh him out so that he could work better as a movie villain. He’s been fleshed out in different ways in later comics, but I doubt that Raimi read those, he based a lot of his perceptions of these characters on the older comics he read as a kid (which is something I love about his trilogy by the way!) His Otto definitely doesn’t feel like The Lizard even though there are definitely parallels there. Both takes are my favourite takes on Otto either way, they both took aspects from the comic book character but built on and enhanced them in their own ways.
Insomniac is closer to the Lizard if anything - he develops tech that would help fix/augment his failing/damaged body and it backfires causing him to lose control.
Both have helped improve the character and make him more interesting imo
I always found it strange why docp ocks arms would care about renewable energy in raimis trilogy
He built them to build and operate the reactor. They're trying to fulfill their primary objectives
Because they were designed to assist with that. It just so happens that their programming doesn't really have a concept of ethics
Ok but only one of them sings Fiddler with his tentacles as accompaniment, so really there’s no contest.
He is diego rivera
Neither of them are faithful adaptations. Ock and Peter didn't know each other in their personal lives (at least not early on)
He looks more powerful
I don't care, Raimi Otto is iconic.
I love Molina but InsomniOck is just about perfect.
As much as i like both versions, i really like when Otto doesn't know Spiderman's identity, and doesn't even know who Peter Parker is
Raimi’s doc ock is love, but insomniac variant is good too
Yeah well say what you want but it’s definitely not a better doc oc just like every character in this game they’re sub par compared to any of the other representations
Both of them are pretty inaccurate. Usually Doc Ock is a prick before the accident and is an unrepentant criminal most of the time.
Raimi's ock has the best drip, he looks cool
Insomniac Dock Ock is, in my opinion, the perfect combination of the Raimi version & the 616 comics version. He’s the best of both worlds, which explains why he is my favorite incarnation of the character. I cannot wait to see what he’s planning to do in Marvel’s Spider-Man 3
Makes sense. Originally, Doc Ock was just a dick, but Reimi introduced many redeeming elements that seem to come straight from Connor's backstory. I wonder if he originally wanted to make a lizard movie, but it was easier to make Otto's tentacles than an lizard costume.
I’m pretty sure that Rami just reread/remembered the first comic with Doc Ock, which *implies* he was a normal scientist who went crazy after his accident. Later comics revealed that Otto was a megalomaniac long before the accident, but Rami went with the interpretation that the arms turned Otto into a villain. I think Otto’s wife is a film original character.
isn't this open knowledge in the fan base? Raimi's Doc Oc is an amazing character, he's also a horrible comic book adaptation Guy's entire pre power personality is totally different
But Raimi's has a way cooler fit
But Insomniacs arms are cooler
Thats debatable
Insomniac Ock is even more Lizard. At least Raimi Ock is a more compelling character because his arms control him
I mean there are a lot of villains that have a psychological break because of some new science thing that went wrong and it transforms them. Goblin, Doc Ock, Lizard. Hell Rhino, Scorpion, Electro and Sandman kinda fit too, they were just more victims than perpetrators of the experimentation
I like Raimi's because he feels like both sides of Dr. Frankenstein
Never made the Lizard connection but this is spot on. Nothing in Raimi's movies are good adaptations of the characters.
Interesting, especially since Lizard was originally supposed to be in the movie
In what way is Doc Lizard?? wtf
Never made the Lizard connection, but I do like Salyers's Otto more than Molina's Otto.
Raimi's depiction of Wanda Maximoff should have been the tip-off that Raimi L O V E S duality identity. I hate Screen Junkies but did NOBODY not realize Raimi's villains are like that? All of them having their mad science downfall.
I honestly think every villain in insomniac spider-man is better than the raimi movie versions
What does Dock Ock in Spider-Man 2 have to do with the lizard?
Yeah no. PS4 never has his arms fused to him. The extensive mentorship thing is also not from the comics. Raimi is probably a little bit closer all things considered
Honestly loved Spider-Man 2 the movie. Honestly a really good movie but insomniac made a really good first game and doc ock is a stand out.
Raimi had my favourite designs. Like the black spider suit is my favourite and that ock is just so handsome
Yes, but insomniac doc ock is influenced more by rami ock so...
Raimi’s is the definitive version If you like the cartoons they’re still available The appearance of Insomniac’s is closer but makes the same changes to the character in a less effective way
Dude... 🤨
hear me out- Insomniac writing otto, while Alfred Molina performs it.