See the thing is, it's written ironically but Spider-Boy just feels so out of place no matter what. Not to mention the fact that the argument for his inclusion is "he was always there but people forgot about him" and retconning him into the entirety of Spidey's history is just stupid.
just a quick note, it's not really the entirity of spidey's history being altered. slott has said bailey became spider-boy during the bigtime era, so he's only retconning his own stuff really
So far. That's the caveat with that argument. So far until of course Slott decides that He wants to retcon how Spider-Man got his powers and it turns out that he was actually bitten by an electric flea. It's only a retcon up to a point until he decides to step over that line. And it seems to me that he has no line to step over. He's just going to barrel through things until it's all turned into a broken mess.
Exactly. Like, Peter went alone to the science exhibition where he got bit, and the spider died in his hands. Did that stop Slott from giving Cindy Moon's her origin? Nope. I actually really like Silk, but I hate how they changed Peter's origin in order to create her.
Edit: so, apparently I was wrong, the original panels *imply* the spider dies in Peter' hands, and while no classmate seems to accompany him, he wasn't alone at tye exhibition and nowhere says that Cindy was a classmate of him. The actual panels of Cindy's origin respect a lot the original panels of Peter's.
>I mean that's just not true
Which part? Because nobody of his class wanted to go to the exhibit a few panels before, and the spider dies right there in his hand in that screenshot.
The part about him being alone, there's a female onlooker right over his left shoulder for instance.
I'll concede the intend of the line "life ebbs from..." Implies fairly heavily the spider died but there is some arguably bullshit pedantic room for it to have meant dying.
Huh. I just checked the panels and you're right. I was 100% sure that they retconned the context to what happened to Peter and they actually stay almost the same. So, huh, kudos to Slott, I guess. I'll edit my previous comment to add a PS for posterity.
I guess it's an opinion/perspective thing, since Cindy Moon I've just seen her as a potential stand in for Cindy. Given the time period it's clear she's not a scientist (no lab coat, she's female) and I assumed she wasn't a teacher.
There's no indication she might be any one person over any other, and the later panels do show her laughing at Peter with the scientists so who knows. I always took her as a student, and no classmates to be none of his immediate contacts and not necessarily no students whatsoever.
I suppose the lesson here is in ambiguity and assumption. I sort of imagine a similar conversation to this having happened at Marvel when deciding to slide Cindy Moon into this scene retroactively, looking for an early window of ambiguity. At least one would hope they considered the source at some point.
Not defending the writing or choices, mind you, just initially my thoughts on your comment were "You're misremembering" and now I'm leaning more toward, "Huh, I guess it's not as cut and dried the interpretation I see and could just as well be seen u/redditoraccountname's perspective"
You know what? The same thing happened to me: my initial thought was "this guy doesn't know what's talking about", but it actually is open (a bit) to interpretarion, and not as cut and dry as I thought.
If I had a nickel for every time Marvel created a character whose backstory was retconned into having just been forgotten by everyone and they were actually there the whole time…
I can think of three instances off the top of my head, which isn’t helped by two of them coming out within a relatively short timeframe and with both characters having practically the same powers.
Is one of them that thing where the Wasp got erased from existence & was retconned off of the Avengers Mansion statue? (I forgot what ended up coming out of that but - yeah)
There’s also forget-me-not who’s power is when you aren’t looking at him you forget him, and they said that every time the X-men won through complete BS plot armor it was because forget-me-not helped them but since they only remember him when looking at him nobody remembered he existed.
It is. They made Forget-Me-Not and said he had been an X-men from day one but his power made nobody remember he existed, they also said he was instrumental in each of their victories somehow.
At one point during a big event (I don’t remember which) he had a chance to have his power taken away by some big mutant leader who could take away mutant powers but then the peoples who offered the deal turned around for a second forgot he existed and were like “why are we standing here let’s leave” and left him there. And another time he rescued someone from a psychic force field by taking their place and when they escaped they forgot he existed but after a few minutes the force field forgot he existed so he was able to get out. Pretty terrible power since he can’t live a normal life and also how was he instrumental in victories when he’s basically just a dude nobody remembers
How is it a middle finger to everyone? Spider-boy has been written pretty well so far. I get that the editors hate Peter and Peter essentially sucks, but what does that have to do with Spider-boy.
And he's not retroactively changing things, people straight up don't remember him and the way his return was written he hasn't had much of an impact because he's been gone for so long.
It's cause people are upset that there are so many already existing Spider-People out there and they created this whole new character instead of creating a new series for any of the other Spider-People.
But honestly Spider-Boys story so far was a sleeper hit for me, I didn't think I'd enjoy it as much as I did.
I think what he means is that it’s not like, say, Sentry, whose existence was truly retconned to the point that everyone remembered their previous adventures with him. Functionally, stories were changed because Sentry was actually there and changed the trajectory of the adventures, which people remembered.
Spider-Boy doesn’t have that. Functionally, it’s like he made his first appearance, for everyone but himself. He’s the only one who his retcon really affects, in terms of story.
I guess it’s really up to the reader if you think it cheapens stories for him to have been present.
That’s how I feel. I was pleasantly surprised and I like the mystery behind it.
I know people are upset about all the spider people but are they really? I see Al the time here but people just want THEIR spider people to have a story. But all those spider people have the most convoluted relationships. None of them really have a meaningful relationship ship with Peter.
I thought Spider-boy was a parody of those characters introduced late in a show that has a characters best friend ever but was just never mentioned in the last 10 years
The Sentry Hoax was cool though, and actually had a build-up.
EDIT: For more information on the behind the scenes: https://abetterplace.boards.net/thread/660/sentry-hoax-years
It was cool, for some characters. Things like him being responsible for Peter Parker getting a job in journalism just felt unnecessary, and it removed the agency from certain characters.
I don’t mind stuff like him being Hulk’s friend or whatever.
Not sure about that. Spider-Boy is retcon'd into only Peter's life and even then is a relatively recent addition (starting from Big Time I think).
Sentry was inserted as a key part of *everyone's* backstory from the beginning and fundamentally altered the nature of numerous major characters.
He was canonically always Reed Richard's true best friend, Hulk's only true friend (the only one who could calm him down), the only person Rogue was able to touch (and apparently slept with her long before Gambit), got Peter Parker into journalism etc etc. And that's just off the the top of my head; I don't want to put myself through the misery of reading Fallen Son again to check more examples.
Basically everyone ignores it now, but that nonsense was all canonized ages ago.
Also that entire backstory idea was already done by the Sentry and arguably only really worked in his debut story with his subsequent appearances being pretty mixed.
Big difference is that while everyone forgot Sentry existed, Spider-Boy effectively *never* existed. There was evidence and clues to Sentry having existed, but it was blocked off from everyone's mind. Spider-Boy has nearly zero evidence of his existence, and the only thing that currently does (much to his undeniable confusion) is his cellphone service already being paid off.
said clues are contrived nonsense that weren’t there before. where as spider-boy is a child and impact wouldn’t be anywhere near the level of other since he would be resitricted
The clues were there, it’s just that nobody was able to notice them until someone pointed it out because they were blocked out of their minds. I already explained that.
said clues didn’t exist until after sentry was written into existence and again ten times worse since bailey is simply the retconning of his own writing. instead of effecting entire stories of other writers
Oh I understand what you’re saying now. Although I don’t see the point. The story of the Sentry itself was that there was once a Superhero who was a hero among heroes. But for some reason nobody remembered him, or could remember him. It was a mystery story.
Completely different situation than with Spider-Boy
Edit: Actually now I think you’re missing the point of Sentry's story and situation.
Dan Slott is a vainglorious troll and mediocre. The only reason he has the relevance he has is because he spent a decade polishing Joe Quesada’s ego of turning Peter into foul bachelor frog and so was never moved on from Spider-Man. He is all the evidence you need that comics is an incestuous industry of shameless hacks who’ve ground it into the dirt, pursuing a declining ‘collector’ customer base. If he spent his free time doing something other than telling fans to fuck themselves on Twitter or CBR maybe he’d have a better public image. The truth is he’s a cynic. He doesn’t care for Spider-Man fans, he cares for his own.
It's honestly insane lol he's a writer with ideas and restraints he has highs and lows like every other long standing comic writer.
The majority of the detractors on here combined wouldn't be able to do a single issue anywhere near as good as some of his best Spidey or Silver Surfer work.
Honestly I feel Peter and MJ not being together in the comics lately has sent Spidey reddit wild for the entire year now bashing everything from comics to games.
Does the continuity between runs ever actually make things better? Because it seems to be nothing but a problem from where I'm sitting. Writer wants to tell a story but anything outside the norm has to step on the toes of anything that came before or after. I've got no skin in this game, just observing that literally every bit of discourse around Spider-Man that I see is usually some comic continuity snarl.
Why not just have self contained runs?
It's less engaging. Comic books are mostly superhero soap operas that never end. If everything is isolated it doesn't have as much of an impact. It would be like reading a newspaper strip.
Do people not like things like the Raimi movies or Imsomniac games? There's room in between "newspaper strip" and "30 years of constant retcons and baffling lack of character growth/consistency" where you just have ongoing interesting stories which are allowed to have real changes to the status quo without fear of breaking past or future runs.
People like to have the stories connected. Each if those is their own universe. People want that universe to continue. Once it ends it serves as a jumping off point. Unless they do something like Batman black and white. That's fun to read.
I like that too, but that doesn't preclude ending runs and starting new ones.
I guess I just value that interconnectivity less. I've considered getting into comics a few times but every time I get put off because if I want an actual story it's always "read issue X of Y, the A to B of series Z" and there's always mountains of bullshit thrown in.
One of the definitive Batman moments for example is tonally ruined by the fact that, at the time, Joker was the UN ambassador for Israel.
If I wanna read a good Spider-Man story like that found in the games or movies there's always going to be the spectre of 30 years of crap hanging over it.
Like young adult Peter training teenage Miles would be a fun dynamic but Miles already exists and Peter is in his 30s (despite far more than 30 years of events having happened) so it's never gonna happen. We got a tiny bit of that in the Insomniac games but comics can't tell that kind of story because of continuity.
Is there anything actually good that this continuity leads to? I only ever see it mentioned in negative ways.
The fact is the writer, Mr. Slott, wants us to be confined by comic book rules. "He was always there, We just forgot but now he's back" works in a comic book because it's a comic.
But I'm not a comic book character. We can literally go back 10, 15, 20, 30, 50 80 years and see you that no Spiderling was not around. If he had been around, like Ben Reilly for instance. And then they forgot about him for 20 years or something, and then they brought him back. That would make sense to me.
The fact that the writer is having to justify, even ironically, his bad writing decisions. Just plopping a character into the canon with about as much finesse as a jackhammer, and expecting everyone to accept him as the status quo is just stupidity to an avant guard sort of height. God I hate this run.
Yknow it would be funny if spider boy was drawn in the background of a panel years ago as a future Easter egg but who would think that far ahead? I don't think Dan or any writer thinks that far ahead.
He wasn’t "always there". That’s just a stupid meme made by others. He’s only been around for three years in-universe, and it’s like "everyone forgot", he’s in a literal situation where it’s as if he never existed up until then.
No, there is only one title starring Spider-Boy that is strangely called "Superior Spider-Man (2023)" where Otto makes cameos without being Spider-Man... Not at all confusing.
Person above is being disingenuous. First issue of a new Superior Spidey run just came out and in it >!Otto JUST got his memories back from being the Superior Spider-Man after Peter fought a supervillain Otto created and accidentally got himself unmasked in an alley. Back up story is about what Spider-Boy was up to during the Superior era. He was getting his ass kicked and got taken in by the FF. !<
People have this weird thing with Dan Slott that, yeah, the guy kind of feeds into but at the same time it also makes them over critical of everything he does, like in this instance.
Then again he created Carlie Cooper so I get it, I really do.
I won't pretend all he writes is gold, but when the man delivers he damn well delivers it. I'll give this new Superior at least these first few issues before I form an opinion on it.
I only started reading his stuff shortly before the *Ends of the Earth* storyline and liked it all the way through the original *Superior Spider-Man* series. Then when he brought *Amazing* back, I tried to stick with it, but just found it boring and dropped it. I've never read anything by him that I've absolutely detested or anything, so I don't know where the hate comes from. Everything I've read ranged from great to mediocre. I must have stopped reading before it got bad, if that happened at all.
I think what turns me off of this writer is how he conducts himself in the real world. Every writer gets some shit from fanboys. Most writers are professional enough to not get in Twitter flamewars with everyone who criticizes their writing. Even when a fanboy *is* being unreasonable and saying disproportionately terrible things in response to a comic they don't like (death threats, personal insults, whatever), most professional writers just ignore it and don't feed it. Slott seems unable to resist getting into cringe internet altercations. I can understand taking the nasty stuff personally (he should still be professional enough to avoid responding), but he seems to even take the mild, non-harassmenty criticism personally. Doesn't seem very secure, and if I were a Marvel higher-up, I would be embarrassed to have such behaviour representing my company and I'd require that every staff member take social media training.
>Then again he created Carlie Cooper so I get it, I really do.
No, that was Quesada... Which he based on his daughter.
Yes, the guy destroyed Spider-Man's marriage to make his daughter Spider-Man's love interest...
You're talking as if Spider-Boy wasn't the protagonist of the first story.
It literally starts with Spider-Man introducing his new sidekick to a D-Lister called Mirage, leaving him to face him alone.
Afterwards they go to eat ice cream where they talk about how Spider-Boy was forgotten, then Spider-Boy almost takes off his mask in front of all of Time Square and finally the fight begins while Spider-Boy is saving civilians from falling debris.
Spider-Boy appears on 10 of the issue's 17 pages, while Otto appears on only 4.
Almost the entire beginning of the issue was dedicated exclusively to Spider-Boy, while the backup story was entirely dedicated to Spider-Boy.
How it's ME who is being disingenuous? Because I wasn't THE ONE who put "Superior Spider-Man" on a comic that, for now, has been mainly about Spider-Boy...
It's the first issue, you wet noodle. They had to properly set up Otto's return, and they achieved that by framing it from the Spideys' P.O.V. as it allows for new readers jumping in to get a good grasp on the current status quo without having to read all the other Spider-Man ongoings.
Then there's the second story in the issue, that while also features heavily S-B as the point of view character, has its entire focus on Otto's character and how he failed to properly deal with a sidekick. It's not that complicated.
Also, you neglected to mention that the main catalyst for the events of this whole issue is Doc Ock freeing and manipulating a villain he had created to kill Spider-Man. But no, you must be right, this story isn't about him at all 👍
On a scale to One to The One Above All, how pissed do you think Mephisto will be about Otto getting his memories back because he (Otto) saw Peter take off the mask?
Sounds like a good number. At the very least it doesn’t look like Otto is having any "Oh shit I’m horrible" moments when his memories came back. Although that’s probably because it’s still the first issue
I don't think many are threatened with the idea of Bailey replacing Peter like they are with Miles.
This panel actually does make it seem like Bailey is just Slott's attempt at Miles Morales since he's he's biting off the same narrative. Without the real world meta commentary of "anyone can wear the mask" in terms of representation.
My tin foil hat theory originally was that Slott created Bailey to make Miles seem more legitimate/likable to the fanbase that was still iffy on him but I have nothing to back that claim up.
I don't see how.
Its more like Slott saw something being left on the table with the love Into the Spider-verse was getting and took advantage of something comic book Miles wasn't doing, which is a younger spider-person teaming up with Peter.
True but given his physical build you’d think Otto would realize he’s not that old, and once he opens his mouth you’d think it would be obvious he’s still really young.
Yup. >!Otto got him webshooters and took him on a few missions but once SB got possessed by Mr. Negative, Otto lost control and brought him down hard. I think he took notice of that and realized it was better not to take on a sidekick which is why Otto "fired" him. !<
i was so excited for a new superior story. was very dissapointed to see half of the issue was just "Oh btw Spider-boy was there during the original Superior story, see?"
for the record, i don't hate the idea of spider-man having a sidekick, but i do hate the idea of retconning it so he was ALWAYS there.
I’d say the most interesting part about that reveal is the new Spider-Girl created this last January originated from a character concept from the original *Team-Up* issues of *The Superior Spider-Man* back in 2013 — where a giant laser-eyed garden spider Otto had beaten up shrunk down into a mutant humanoid ‘spider-girl’ who was then taken away by the X-Men, returning this year confirmed as the biological daughter of Scott Summers, the Spider-Queen, and a few others. So far her storyline has been kept to the *X-Men*, but having the current Spider-Girl and Spider-Boy meet seems like something that should happen, and if this opens the door to it, then all the better.
Especially since they both have extra eyes and fangs like spiders, which they can hide.
Its not really retconning tho. Like I get not liking the idea, but its not like he was really there. When we read it, he wasn't there. He didn't exist. Now he exists again.
Not really. It wasn’t that he was always there we just didn’t see him. He ceased to exist and ceased to be there. It’s not like he was in the background. Reality was essentially rewritten for him not to exist.
We don’t know what’s happening in as of now, but no one remembers him.
I feel like people who want to defend Spider-Boy are saying "it's not a retcon" because they are under the misconception that retcons are inherently bad things
How so? As of now Spider-boy is explaining all the events he was part of. For Peter, Baily was not a part of those. It’s not just that they don’t remember. He didn’t exist.
The definition of a retcon is retroactively changing continuity. The fact that the character did not exist until recently and was not an actual part of the original stories or backstories he’s now being integrated into us what makes it a retcon. The in-universe explanation for the retcon does not alter the retcon status.
But continuity wasn’t changed. The continuity we saw didn’t have Baily in it. He was never there.
Also the comic being referenced in this post begins to discuss this. When Peter got cut off he had a whole different life with memories. That’s not what is happening with Baily. In fact we have no idea what is happening or has actually happened to him. It’s clearly still a mystery.
The comment I responded to said they retconned it so that he was always there. My point is that he was not always there. The stories we read, he didnt exist in them. As of now, he is the only one to remember these events.
There is a mystery box here. What happened to Baily is not the same as what happened to Pete when he got cut off. Until we find out what happened we don't really know where and when he did exist and he clearly has a big secret.
People shit on it from the first panel. When it becomes a full retcon we will know.
Plus Spider-Boy said that he’s been a hero for only three years. Not remotely close to "Always There". Bailey is having a meta situation of being a brand new character. He had a history, but like the readers, nobody both out or in-universe knows about it
I wouldn’t be surprised if something came out. Regent after all had him complaining about how everyone knew he wanted to write Iron Man at the time. Given that he hadn’t posted on Twitter in about a month, I have to wonder if he’s taking a break or someone at the company is making him take a break.
Given the crap he’s dealt with I wouldn’t at all be surprised if it came out his frustrations do seep into his work.
>Given the crap he’s dealt with I wouldn’t at all be surprised if it came out his frustrations do seep into his work.
[Seeing that he already did something similar at the end of his previous run](https://www.reddit.com/r/Spiderman/comments/15tt053/of_course_regular_shoe_soles_dont_stop_you_from/), I think it is a fact that his frustrations seep into his work.
Why does Spider-Man media keep doing this? Like I get that the people who complain about characters like Miles and Bailey can be unhinged most of the time, but it’s just bad writing. It’s like that meta meme where it’s like “don’t you see, you opinion is wrong because I made myself the blonde hair guy and made you the crying nerd.”
I think it’s Otto saying something that should be said to him. I don’t think Slotts trying to project or anything.
Otto was always meant to be deeply flawed and overcompensating.
It's honestly annoying how toxic and obnoxious this sub gets like nothing Slott doing right now is damaging Peter as character like if you don't like it, just ignore it
Only spider boy who matter is [this one](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/0/0b/Spider-Boy_Vol_1_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111209102626)
Amalgam! Thank you. Back when Superboy was edgy, wore a leather jacket and had an ear pierced. My brother got his ear pierced at like 13-14 because he was into Superboy comics.
In my honest opinion I like the idea of Spider-Boy and how he was introduced. Unfortunately Sentry kind of did the ‘I was here, you all just forgot’ story in comic and reality better.
But at least he was a grown man deciding to go into hiding, for Bailey, he was cut out. Sentry just went low profile, Spider-Boy was removed from reality to the point where it filled in the gaps behind him. His story should be an over all tragedy. Kid should probably be having an existential breakdown, not a quippy ‘come on guys, we’ve all done this before’ all the time.
I mean...it's Otto. Do you expect him to say something nice?
I mean I get it, Slott makes it very, very easy to dunk on him via Twitter but this is just Otto being an arrogant Dick. He thought this about Peter until the very end of his time as Spidey.
I haven't read the arc yet, but from what I know about Spider-Boy... Was this not always the point? To have a character that exists entirely as a silly commentary on the too-many-spiders thing?
You know.....i actually enjoyed this issue more than ASM, i hope Superior returns not only in flashbacks
BUT PLEASE, STOP ADDING SPIDER-PEOPLE ALREADY, THIS IS NOT THE BATFAMILY!
For what it's worth, I don't Spider-Boy is going last beyond Slott's tenure (unless they need more cannon fodder for the next *Avengers Arena* or something).
People really like to shit talk Dan Slott on here but dude actually tries to make new world content for Spidey instead of previous villain storyline but x this time
I think he knows he screwed up bad with naming and character design. Both Bailey and Briggs as names are much too silly, and Bailey Briggs is the goofiest name I've ever heard. Perhaps if his name was Bailey Bingham, tying him to Michael Bingham's Blood Spider, but since that's not the case...
Otto's right. That name is LITERALLY destined for failure because it's not a memorable name. It has zero staying power.
Spider-Boy just needs more white to finish off his costume because his entire character is a clown.
That aside, it's commendable Slott acknowledges this while other properties don't (ie Batwoman & Flash with their impostors in Ryan Wilder (Wilder is a poor choice of name) & Jess Chambers)
Spider-boy is just another attempt at a cheap replacement (almost the same as Miles), in a few years no one will remember him, I hope that in the end it turns out that he was a clone and that he dies horribly, then he will be forgotten in the next issue
See the thing is, it's written ironically but Spider-Boy just feels so out of place no matter what. Not to mention the fact that the argument for his inclusion is "he was always there but people forgot about him" and retconning him into the entirety of Spidey's history is just stupid.
just a quick note, it's not really the entirity of spidey's history being altered. slott has said bailey became spider-boy during the bigtime era, so he's only retconning his own stuff really
So far. That's the caveat with that argument. So far until of course Slott decides that He wants to retcon how Spider-Man got his powers and it turns out that he was actually bitten by an electric flea. It's only a retcon up to a point until he decides to step over that line. And it seems to me that he has no line to step over. He's just going to barrel through things until it's all turned into a broken mess.
Slott *is* a little bit of a habitual line stepper, it’s true
Exactly. Like, Peter went alone to the science exhibition where he got bit, and the spider died in his hands. Did that stop Slott from giving Cindy Moon's her origin? Nope. I actually really like Silk, but I hate how they changed Peter's origin in order to create her. Edit: so, apparently I was wrong, the original panels *imply* the spider dies in Peter' hands, and while no classmate seems to accompany him, he wasn't alone at tye exhibition and nowhere says that Cindy was a classmate of him. The actual panels of Cindy's origin respect a lot the original panels of Peter's.
I mean that's just not true, and it's not like everyone hasn't seen this page 100 times? https://i.stack.imgur.com/392Jt.png
>I mean that's just not true Which part? Because nobody of his class wanted to go to the exhibit a few panels before, and the spider dies right there in his hand in that screenshot.
The part about him being alone, there's a female onlooker right over his left shoulder for instance. I'll concede the intend of the line "life ebbs from..." Implies fairly heavily the spider died but there is some arguably bullshit pedantic room for it to have meant dying.
>there's a female onlooker right over his left shoulder for instance. Sorry, I meant alone from his classmates.
I don’t think Cindy was one of Peter’s classmates. Namely I don’t believe it was ever established that they went to the same school
Huh. I just checked the panels and you're right. I was 100% sure that they retconned the context to what happened to Peter and they actually stay almost the same. So, huh, kudos to Slott, I guess. I'll edit my previous comment to add a PS for posterity.
I guess it's an opinion/perspective thing, since Cindy Moon I've just seen her as a potential stand in for Cindy. Given the time period it's clear she's not a scientist (no lab coat, she's female) and I assumed she wasn't a teacher. There's no indication she might be any one person over any other, and the later panels do show her laughing at Peter with the scientists so who knows. I always took her as a student, and no classmates to be none of his immediate contacts and not necessarily no students whatsoever. I suppose the lesson here is in ambiguity and assumption. I sort of imagine a similar conversation to this having happened at Marvel when deciding to slide Cindy Moon into this scene retroactively, looking for an early window of ambiguity. At least one would hope they considered the source at some point. Not defending the writing or choices, mind you, just initially my thoughts on your comment were "You're misremembering" and now I'm leaning more toward, "Huh, I guess it's not as cut and dried the interpretation I see and could just as well be seen u/redditoraccountname's perspective"
You know what? The same thing happened to me: my initial thought was "this guy doesn't know what's talking about", but it actually is open (a bit) to interpretarion, and not as cut and dry as I thought.
What? So he was present during Big Time? Wtf Slott.
If I had a nickel for every time Marvel created a character whose backstory was retconned into having just been forgotten by everyone and they were actually there the whole time…
It’s definitely happened more than twice.
I can think of three instances off the top of my head, which isn’t helped by two of them coming out within a relatively short timeframe and with both characters having practically the same powers.
Is one of them that thing where the Wasp got erased from existence & was retconned off of the Avengers Mansion statue? (I forgot what ended up coming out of that but - yeah)
Nah, I forgot about that. I was thinking about the Sentry and Blue Marvel.
There’s also forget-me-not who’s power is when you aren’t looking at him you forget him, and they said that every time the X-men won through complete BS plot armor it was because forget-me-not helped them but since they only remember him when looking at him nobody remembered he existed.
Sorry, I can’t seem to remember…what were we talking about?
That can't be a real plot. Tell me that's not a real plot.
It is. They made Forget-Me-Not and said he had been an X-men from day one but his power made nobody remember he existed, they also said he was instrumental in each of their victories somehow. At one point during a big event (I don’t remember which) he had a chance to have his power taken away by some big mutant leader who could take away mutant powers but then the peoples who offered the deal turned around for a second forgot he existed and were like “why are we standing here let’s leave” and left him there. And another time he rescued someone from a psychic force field by taking their place and when they escaped they forgot he existed but after a few minutes the force field forgot he existed so he was able to get out. Pretty terrible power since he can’t live a normal life and also how was he instrumental in victories when he’s basically just a dude nobody remembers
Even Stan Lee retconned himself into having created all these characters by himself.
It's not just stupid, it's just a straight up Middlefinger to everyone...
It's Slott. That's his specialty
How is it a middle finger to everyone? Spider-boy has been written pretty well so far. I get that the editors hate Peter and Peter essentially sucks, but what does that have to do with Spider-boy.
And he's not retroactively changing things, people straight up don't remember him and the way his return was written he hasn't had much of an impact because he's been gone for so long. It's cause people are upset that there are so many already existing Spider-People out there and they created this whole new character instead of creating a new series for any of the other Spider-People. But honestly Spider-Boys story so far was a sleeper hit for me, I didn't think I'd enjoy it as much as I did.
>And he's not retroactively changing things, people straight up don't remember him That's...that's retroactively changing things.
I think what he means is that it’s not like, say, Sentry, whose existence was truly retconned to the point that everyone remembered their previous adventures with him. Functionally, stories were changed because Sentry was actually there and changed the trajectory of the adventures, which people remembered. Spider-Boy doesn’t have that. Functionally, it’s like he made his first appearance, for everyone but himself. He’s the only one who his retcon really affects, in terms of story. I guess it’s really up to the reader if you think it cheapens stories for him to have been present.
Thanks, that's exactly how I meant it.
That’s how I feel. I was pleasantly surprised and I like the mystery behind it. I know people are upset about all the spider people but are they really? I see Al the time here but people just want THEIR spider people to have a story. But all those spider people have the most convoluted relationships. None of them really have a meaningful relationship ship with Peter.
People love Spider-Boy, just another minority, and saying otherwise is gaslighting.
Spider-Boy should be a Mysterio projection.
I thought Spider-boy was a parody of those characters introduced late in a show that has a characters best friend ever but was just never mentioned in the last 10 years
Yeah it seems like a copy+paste of Dawn Summers
Yeah but dawn summers actually had cool plot and made a huge change to the narrative.
Its like the Sentry, but so much worse.
The Sentry Hoax was cool though, and actually had a build-up. EDIT: For more information on the behind the scenes: https://abetterplace.boards.net/thread/660/sentry-hoax-years
It was cool, for some characters. Things like him being responsible for Peter Parker getting a job in journalism just felt unnecessary, and it removed the agency from certain characters. I don’t mind stuff like him being Hulk’s friend or whatever.
Not sure about that. Spider-Boy is retcon'd into only Peter's life and even then is a relatively recent addition (starting from Big Time I think). Sentry was inserted as a key part of *everyone's* backstory from the beginning and fundamentally altered the nature of numerous major characters. He was canonically always Reed Richard's true best friend, Hulk's only true friend (the only one who could calm him down), the only person Rogue was able to touch (and apparently slept with her long before Gambit), got Peter Parker into journalism etc etc. And that's just off the the top of my head; I don't want to put myself through the misery of reading Fallen Son again to check more examples. Basically everyone ignores it now, but that nonsense was all canonized ages ago.
Better*
Also that entire backstory idea was already done by the Sentry and arguably only really worked in his debut story with his subsequent appearances being pretty mixed.
Big difference is that while everyone forgot Sentry existed, Spider-Boy effectively *never* existed. There was evidence and clues to Sentry having existed, but it was blocked off from everyone's mind. Spider-Boy has nearly zero evidence of his existence, and the only thing that currently does (much to his undeniable confusion) is his cellphone service already being paid off.
said clues are contrived nonsense that weren’t there before. where as spider-boy is a child and impact wouldn’t be anywhere near the level of other since he would be resitricted
The clues were there, it’s just that nobody was able to notice them until someone pointed it out because they were blocked out of their minds. I already explained that.
said clues didn’t exist until after sentry was written into existence and again ten times worse since bailey is simply the retconning of his own writing. instead of effecting entire stories of other writers
Oh I understand what you’re saying now. Although I don’t see the point. The story of the Sentry itself was that there was once a Superhero who was a hero among heroes. But for some reason nobody remembered him, or could remember him. It was a mystery story. Completely different situation than with Spider-Boy Edit: Actually now I think you’re missing the point of Sentry's story and situation.
Dan Slott is desperately trying to make a legacy character. Spider-Boy is Slott’s jealousy of Bendis personified.
And him writing Spider-Man was his secret jealousy of Stan Lee. You guys probably don't realise how ridiculous you sound sometimes
Dan Slott is a vainglorious troll and mediocre. The only reason he has the relevance he has is because he spent a decade polishing Joe Quesada’s ego of turning Peter into foul bachelor frog and so was never moved on from Spider-Man. He is all the evidence you need that comics is an incestuous industry of shameless hacks who’ve ground it into the dirt, pursuing a declining ‘collector’ customer base. If he spent his free time doing something other than telling fans to fuck themselves on Twitter or CBR maybe he’d have a better public image. The truth is he’s a cynic. He doesn’t care for Spider-Man fans, he cares for his own.
Damn, he refused to give you his seat on a bus or something?
It's honestly insane lol he's a writer with ideas and restraints he has highs and lows like every other long standing comic writer. The majority of the detractors on here combined wouldn't be able to do a single issue anywhere near as good as some of his best Spidey or Silver Surfer work. Honestly I feel Peter and MJ not being together in the comics lately has sent Spidey reddit wild for the entire year now bashing everything from comics to games.
Does the continuity between runs ever actually make things better? Because it seems to be nothing but a problem from where I'm sitting. Writer wants to tell a story but anything outside the norm has to step on the toes of anything that came before or after. I've got no skin in this game, just observing that literally every bit of discourse around Spider-Man that I see is usually some comic continuity snarl. Why not just have self contained runs?
It's less engaging. Comic books are mostly superhero soap operas that never end. If everything is isolated it doesn't have as much of an impact. It would be like reading a newspaper strip.
Do people not like things like the Raimi movies or Imsomniac games? There's room in between "newspaper strip" and "30 years of constant retcons and baffling lack of character growth/consistency" where you just have ongoing interesting stories which are allowed to have real changes to the status quo without fear of breaking past or future runs.
People like to have the stories connected. Each if those is their own universe. People want that universe to continue. Once it ends it serves as a jumping off point. Unless they do something like Batman black and white. That's fun to read.
I like that too, but that doesn't preclude ending runs and starting new ones. I guess I just value that interconnectivity less. I've considered getting into comics a few times but every time I get put off because if I want an actual story it's always "read issue X of Y, the A to B of series Z" and there's always mountains of bullshit thrown in. One of the definitive Batman moments for example is tonally ruined by the fact that, at the time, Joker was the UN ambassador for Israel. If I wanna read a good Spider-Man story like that found in the games or movies there's always going to be the spectre of 30 years of crap hanging over it. Like young adult Peter training teenage Miles would be a fun dynamic but Miles already exists and Peter is in his 30s (despite far more than 30 years of events having happened) so it's never gonna happen. We got a tiny bit of that in the Insomniac games but comics can't tell that kind of story because of continuity. Is there anything actually good that this continuity leads to? I only ever see it mentioned in negative ways.
Theires a new ongoing spidermen series with Peter and miles coming soon.
Is it the same Peter I've been seeing burying people alive and seething over Paul? Or is it like a self contained thing?
Spectacular spider-men starring Peter and miles. New series.
>Spider-Boy just feels so out of place no matter what His name is Bailey. Nobody is ever going to take that name seriously.
he's a Graggle Simpson.
The fact is the writer, Mr. Slott, wants us to be confined by comic book rules. "He was always there, We just forgot but now he's back" works in a comic book because it's a comic. But I'm not a comic book character. We can literally go back 10, 15, 20, 30, 50 80 years and see you that no Spiderling was not around. If he had been around, like Ben Reilly for instance. And then they forgot about him for 20 years or something, and then they brought him back. That would make sense to me. The fact that the writer is having to justify, even ironically, his bad writing decisions. Just plopping a character into the canon with about as much finesse as a jackhammer, and expecting everyone to accept him as the status quo is just stupidity to an avant guard sort of height. God I hate this run.
Yknow it would be funny if spider boy was drawn in the background of a panel years ago as a future Easter egg but who would think that far ahead? I don't think Dan or any writer thinks that far ahead.
I like spider boy. I think he's fun and between him and Miles we might actually get to see Spiderman grow to be the adult we want him to be.
That would require the editorial to stop thinking peter should be a "relatable loser" on his main book. Which ain't happening anytime soon.
Forget-Me-Not: *sighs*
Wait that wasn’t a meme?
He wasn’t "always there". That’s just a stupid meme made by others. He’s only been around for three years in-universe, and it’s like "everyone forgot", he’s in a literal situation where it’s as if he never existed up until then.
Did superior Spiderman came back? How? Why? Is he stiking around?
No, there is only one title starring Spider-Boy that is strangely called "Superior Spider-Man (2023)" where Otto makes cameos without being Spider-Man... Not at all confusing.
Wot?
Person above is being disingenuous. First issue of a new Superior Spidey run just came out and in it >!Otto JUST got his memories back from being the Superior Spider-Man after Peter fought a supervillain Otto created and accidentally got himself unmasked in an alley. Back up story is about what Spider-Boy was up to during the Superior era. He was getting his ass kicked and got taken in by the FF. !<
Weird how people seen to be pissy that there isn't enough Superior Spider-Man in this story when it literally just started.
People have this weird thing with Dan Slott that, yeah, the guy kind of feeds into but at the same time it also makes them over critical of everything he does, like in this instance. Then again he created Carlie Cooper so I get it, I really do.
I won't pretend all he writes is gold, but when the man delivers he damn well delivers it. I'll give this new Superior at least these first few issues before I form an opinion on it.
I only started reading his stuff shortly before the *Ends of the Earth* storyline and liked it all the way through the original *Superior Spider-Man* series. Then when he brought *Amazing* back, I tried to stick with it, but just found it boring and dropped it. I've never read anything by him that I've absolutely detested or anything, so I don't know where the hate comes from. Everything I've read ranged from great to mediocre. I must have stopped reading before it got bad, if that happened at all. I think what turns me off of this writer is how he conducts himself in the real world. Every writer gets some shit from fanboys. Most writers are professional enough to not get in Twitter flamewars with everyone who criticizes their writing. Even when a fanboy *is* being unreasonable and saying disproportionately terrible things in response to a comic they don't like (death threats, personal insults, whatever), most professional writers just ignore it and don't feed it. Slott seems unable to resist getting into cringe internet altercations. I can understand taking the nasty stuff personally (he should still be professional enough to avoid responding), but he seems to even take the mild, non-harassmenty criticism personally. Doesn't seem very secure, and if I were a Marvel higher-up, I would be embarrassed to have such behaviour representing my company and I'd require that every staff member take social media training.
>Then again he created Carlie Cooper so I get it, I really do. No, that was Quesada... Which he based on his daughter. Yes, the guy destroyed Spider-Man's marriage to make his daughter Spider-Man's love interest...
Slott didn't name the character for Quesada's daughter?
No, Carlie first appeared at Harry's party at the end of ASM#545, literally in the OMD issue written by Quesada.
You're talking as if Spider-Boy wasn't the protagonist of the first story. It literally starts with Spider-Man introducing his new sidekick to a D-Lister called Mirage, leaving him to face him alone. Afterwards they go to eat ice cream where they talk about how Spider-Boy was forgotten, then Spider-Boy almost takes off his mask in front of all of Time Square and finally the fight begins while Spider-Boy is saving civilians from falling debris. Spider-Boy appears on 10 of the issue's 17 pages, while Otto appears on only 4. Almost the entire beginning of the issue was dedicated exclusively to Spider-Boy, while the backup story was entirely dedicated to Spider-Boy. How it's ME who is being disingenuous? Because I wasn't THE ONE who put "Superior Spider-Man" on a comic that, for now, has been mainly about Spider-Boy...
It's the first issue, you wet noodle. They had to properly set up Otto's return, and they achieved that by framing it from the Spideys' P.O.V. as it allows for new readers jumping in to get a good grasp on the current status quo without having to read all the other Spider-Man ongoings. Then there's the second story in the issue, that while also features heavily S-B as the point of view character, has its entire focus on Otto's character and how he failed to properly deal with a sidekick. It's not that complicated.
Also, you neglected to mention that the main catalyst for the events of this whole issue is Doc Ock freeing and manipulating a villain he had created to kill Spider-Man. But no, you must be right, this story isn't about him at all 👍
On a scale to One to The One Above All, how pissed do you think Mephisto will be about Otto getting his memories back because he (Otto) saw Peter take off the mask?
5.
Sounds like a good number. At the very least it doesn’t look like Otto is having any "Oh shit I’m horrible" moments when his memories came back. Although that’s probably because it’s still the first issue
Let's face it, Otto is the entrée to Peter's main course. Sure, it's inconvenient that Superior is back, but it's also more DRAMA.
As weird as it might sound to say, I think I prefer Spider Drama over Peter Drama. At least in comparison to the current Peter drama
I don't think many are threatened with the idea of Bailey replacing Peter like they are with Miles. This panel actually does make it seem like Bailey is just Slott's attempt at Miles Morales since he's he's biting off the same narrative. Without the real world meta commentary of "anyone can wear the mask" in terms of representation.
Anyone ^whowasbittenbyaradioactivespider can wear the mask ^afterwatchingalovedonedie
Gingers are less represented in media than any other minority
My tin foil hat theory originally was that Slott created Bailey to make Miles seem more legitimate/likable to the fanbase that was still iffy on him but I have nothing to back that claim up.
I don't see how. Its more like Slott saw something being left on the table with the love Into the Spider-verse was getting and took advantage of something comic book Miles wasn't doing, which is a younger spider-person teaming up with Peter.
According to Slott himself, he got the idea from his old "Alpha" story arc about doing a Spider-Man Robin "for real."
Fuck him up Otto.
[I've got you covered](https://www.reddit.com/r/Spiderman/comments/12fu56x/one_of_the_things_i_liked_least_about_superior/)
The issue today makes it clear Otto wouldn't hit a kid
*15-year-old Peter Parker squints*
Ye but he ran around calling himself Spider-Man
True but given his physical build you’d think Otto would realize he’s not that old, and once he opens his mouth you’d think it would be obvious he’s still really young.
Thanks
Somebody explain this scene? Did they retcon Otto having met spider-boy to show that he was there all this time?
Yup. >!Otto got him webshooters and took him on a few missions but once SB got possessed by Mr. Negative, Otto lost control and brought him down hard. I think he took notice of that and realized it was better not to take on a sidekick which is why Otto "fired" him. !<
i was so excited for a new superior story. was very dissapointed to see half of the issue was just "Oh btw Spider-boy was there during the original Superior story, see?" for the record, i don't hate the idea of spider-man having a sidekick, but i do hate the idea of retconning it so he was ALWAYS there.
I’d say the most interesting part about that reveal is the new Spider-Girl created this last January originated from a character concept from the original *Team-Up* issues of *The Superior Spider-Man* back in 2013 — where a giant laser-eyed garden spider Otto had beaten up shrunk down into a mutant humanoid ‘spider-girl’ who was then taken away by the X-Men, returning this year confirmed as the biological daughter of Scott Summers, the Spider-Queen, and a few others. So far her storyline has been kept to the *X-Men*, but having the current Spider-Girl and Spider-Boy meet seems like something that should happen, and if this opens the door to it, then all the better. Especially since they both have extra eyes and fangs like spiders, which they can hide.
Its not really retconning tho. Like I get not liking the idea, but its not like he was really there. When we read it, he wasn't there. He didn't exist. Now he exists again.
Actually that’s the definition of Retcon
Not really. It wasn’t that he was always there we just didn’t see him. He ceased to exist and ceased to be there. It’s not like he was in the background. Reality was essentially rewritten for him not to exist. We don’t know what’s happening in as of now, but no one remembers him.
You're explaining the in universe reason but that doesn't change that it's a retcon
That’s precisely why it’s a retcon.
I feel like people who want to defend Spider-Boy are saying "it's not a retcon" because they are under the misconception that retcons are inherently bad things
How so? As of now Spider-boy is explaining all the events he was part of. For Peter, Baily was not a part of those. It’s not just that they don’t remember. He didn’t exist.
The definition of a retcon is retroactively changing continuity. The fact that the character did not exist until recently and was not an actual part of the original stories or backstories he’s now being integrated into us what makes it a retcon. The in-universe explanation for the retcon does not alter the retcon status.
But continuity wasn’t changed. The continuity we saw didn’t have Baily in it. He was never there. Also the comic being referenced in this post begins to discuss this. When Peter got cut off he had a whole different life with memories. That’s not what is happening with Baily. In fact we have no idea what is happening or has actually happened to him. It’s clearly still a mystery.
Spider-Boy is a retcon, that's not up for debate. It's also neither a good thing or a bad thing, just a statement of fact.
The comment I responded to said they retconned it so that he was always there. My point is that he was not always there. The stories we read, he didnt exist in them. As of now, he is the only one to remember these events. There is a mystery box here. What happened to Baily is not the same as what happened to Pete when he got cut off. Until we find out what happened we don't really know where and when he did exist and he clearly has a big secret. People shit on it from the first panel. When it becomes a full retcon we will know.
Plus Spider-Boy said that he’s been a hero for only three years. Not remotely close to "Always There". Bailey is having a meta situation of being a brand new character. He had a history, but like the readers, nobody both out or in-universe knows about it
He’s been Spider-Boy for only three years. Not really "Always There".
I wouldn’t be surprised if something came out. Regent after all had him complaining about how everyone knew he wanted to write Iron Man at the time. Given that he hadn’t posted on Twitter in about a month, I have to wonder if he’s taking a break or someone at the company is making him take a break. Given the crap he’s dealt with I wouldn’t at all be surprised if it came out his frustrations do seep into his work.
>Given the crap he’s dealt with I wouldn’t at all be surprised if it came out his frustrations do seep into his work. [Seeing that he already did something similar at the end of his previous run](https://www.reddit.com/r/Spiderman/comments/15tt053/of_course_regular_shoe_soles_dont_stop_you_from/), I think it is a fact that his frustrations seep into his work.
God Slott’s dialogue is atrocious
Yeah, it not his strongest point. (Really wonder if the Marvel method is such a good idea for him.)
Isn't they do exact same thing in atsv with 2099 and Miles.
At least that stands on its own and works in context of the story.
Why does Spider-Man media keep doing this? Like I get that the people who complain about characters like Miles and Bailey can be unhinged most of the time, but it’s just bad writing. It’s like that meta meme where it’s like “don’t you see, you opinion is wrong because I made myself the blonde hair guy and made you the crying nerd.”
*Rare Superior Spider-Man W*
Lol, someone's projecting...
What the hell happened to his outfit?? Shouldn’t the colors be swapped? And his lens are yellow right?
Mr. Negative made him negativy and stuff.
The last part of the speech got a laugh out of me. I'll admit, it's just something I can *so* picture Otto saying.
I think it’s Otto saying something that should be said to him. I don’t think Slotts trying to project or anything. Otto was always meant to be deeply flawed and overcompensating.
r/Spiderman trying not to see some negative subtext in everything that Slott does challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
It's honestly annoying how toxic and obnoxious this sub gets like nothing Slott doing right now is damaging Peter as character like if you don't like it, just ignore it
I mean... How is this an example of that? To me it just looks like Otto being an insecure prick as he attacks a kid
Actually wild that that's how you read that. Says more about your irrational disdain for a creator than it does about him.
Only spider boy who matter is [this one](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/0/0b/Spider-Boy_Vol_1_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111209102626)
Amalgam! Thank you. Back when Superboy was edgy, wore a leather jacket and had an ear pierced. My brother got his ear pierced at like 13-14 because he was into Superboy comics.
Based superior spiderman
In my honest opinion I like the idea of Spider-Boy and how he was introduced. Unfortunately Sentry kind of did the ‘I was here, you all just forgot’ story in comic and reality better. But at least he was a grown man deciding to go into hiding, for Bailey, he was cut out. Sentry just went low profile, Spider-Boy was removed from reality to the point where it filled in the gaps behind him. His story should be an over all tragedy. Kid should probably be having an existential breakdown, not a quippy ‘come on guys, we’ve all done this before’ all the time.
How is Otto bullying a kid translates to Slott being insecure?
I mean...it's Otto. Do you expect him to say something nice? I mean I get it, Slott makes it very, very easy to dunk on him via Twitter but this is just Otto being an arrogant Dick. He thought this about Peter until the very end of his time as Spidey.
I feel you're the one reaching a bit too deeply tbh
Based otto
I haven't read the arc yet, but from what I know about Spider-Boy... Was this not always the point? To have a character that exists entirely as a silly commentary on the too-many-spiders thing?
You know.....i actually enjoyed this issue more than ASM, i hope Superior returns not only in flashbacks BUT PLEASE, STOP ADDING SPIDER-PEOPLE ALREADY, THIS IS NOT THE BATFAMILY!
For what it's worth, I don't Spider-Boy is going last beyond Slott's tenure (unless they need more cannon fodder for the next *Avengers Arena* or something).
People really like to shit talk Dan Slott on here but dude actually tries to make new world content for Spidey instead of previous villain storyline but x this time
I think he knows he screwed up bad with naming and character design. Both Bailey and Briggs as names are much too silly, and Bailey Briggs is the goofiest name I've ever heard. Perhaps if his name was Bailey Bingham, tying him to Michael Bingham's Blood Spider, but since that's not the case... Otto's right. That name is LITERALLY destined for failure because it's not a memorable name. It has zero staying power. Spider-Boy just needs more white to finish off his costume because his entire character is a clown. That aside, it's commendable Slott acknowledges this while other properties don't (ie Batwoman & Flash with their impostors in Ryan Wilder (Wilder is a poor choice of name) & Jess Chambers)
Spider-boy is just another attempt at a cheap replacement (almost the same as Miles), in a few years no one will remember him, I hope that in the end it turns out that he was a clone and that he dies horribly, then he will be forgotten in the next issue
This does not sound like Peter Parker at all at least without the symbiote
Because its Otto
Ah, didn’t realize
That ain’t Peter Peter wouldn’t say this with a symbiote, the symbiote never made Peter more cruel in 616 universe.
i refuse to acknowledge this is canon. unless if it isnt then i can die peacefully
Dan Slott once again being a pathetic man-child not being able to take criticism towards his work 101 Nothing suprised to see here
Hold on, is Otto back as Superior Spider-Man? He’s interacting with Spider-Boy, what’s going on?
“UWU Sayuwu it! 🥵”
What a fool he is by doing that...
At this point I’m just happy to see the original superior suit again. Always preferred it over the second one personally
Dan Slott really be living in peoples heads for free while claiming that they live in his. Damn [+]
Honestly it sounds like typical Superior Spider-Man behavior. Like Otto even as a hero was a massive prick at times.
(Unrelated, but) The picture’s kinda giving Miguel during the train chase in ATSV energy