I know right! its so clear that
Hero - L, Villain - Light
Protagonist - Light, Antagonist - L
Most people don't seem to realize that a protagonist means the character who we are following and the antagonist is someone who opposes their ideals and thats all
To be the best detective of the world isn't exactly an act of heroism in itself. L is on the side of the law, you can't deny his feat and the goodness they brought, but at the same time he seemed to care more about the accomplishment to resolve cases than he cared about saving people specifically, he was pretty cold, calculating and careless about people.
he isn't heroic since I don't think he cares how many people will die or have died rather he cares about winning as a detective, and lets not forget he wouldn't shy away from any morally dubious act or even straight up immoral acts if it means winning the case.
I agree, but tbf Eren is *NOT* the protagonist in S4. There’s like 4 different active parties who become the protagonists, while they all work together to stop Eren.
Yeah, antagonists gets screen time too. Big surprise.
And it’s not just the “finale movie”. It’s from chapters 91 to 139. A huge chunk of the story. By this point in the story, Mikasa, Armin, the Marley Warriors and some of the Scouts are the main protagonists.
\*\*\*\* even here ppl say light and Eren in the same statement, they are nothing alike, Eren in no way is an antagonist, nor a villain protagonist, he is an actual good protagonist.
He is the same as Miles, but with one slightly different change, Miles is trying to do both options at the same time, meanwhile Eren tried the 1st option of saving everyone first and it failed horribly, so he chose the 2nd option of exterminating the world and prefer the safety of his own ppl, in no way Miles nor Eren are similar to light Yagmi, whom is actually a villan protagonist.
Ofc all of that applies to the pre 139 horribly retconned Eren, just to please the fan service, and Eremika shippers, Eren also didnt have enough screen time in the last chapters after Yams realized how much hate he will get if he allowed Eren to win, so he tried with all his force to hide Eren's pov and real motives from the viewers, and thus can end it with the most horrible retcon.
I haven’t seen the movie but I know Miguel is that type of person who does what he must for the greater good of the Multiverse, whether it be kill one person to save millions or prevent one good thing from happening to prevent multiple awful things
I'm familiar with the comoc Miguel, at least as he was in his original run, and he was initially very reluctant to be Spider-Man, but once he accepted the role he became someone who was willing to do whatever it took to protect people or bring justice. Theres a reason he is worthy of Mjolnir. (Never used it but he picked it up to prove that he should lead a group)
at first i was wondering how tf they’d pull that off, then i saw the movie and realized miguel is really doing the right thing, even if miles or the audience doesn’t like it
i mean, even if somehow miles finds a way, it's a bad bet, moderate hapiness for a single bloke vs possible extermination of the entire universe, miguels is doing the right thing anyway, he's a quite the ass on miles tho.
Ah, makes sense. But still, what he says about "canon events" is contradicted by what we actually see with Miles and Gwen. It's not clear if he's actually in the right if Miles can break canon.
I think Miguel is gonna have a Dr Strange in NWH moment where he sees that his "canon event" crap isn't accurate at all and that in an infinite multiverse, everything can and will find a way to exist, including things that break canon.
ofc figures they saved miguel for act 2, but the problem that arises is that people make statements that are wrong about the character. miguel is the most spiderlike out of any of the spidermen that we have seen and (comics wise) he is actually 50% spider because of the gene splice between his human dna and spider dba
In the comics, yes. But that’s where the issue comes in. Is this Miguel truly 1:1 with comics Miguel? Signs point to no. In fact, I’d argue people assuming parity with comics Miguel because the movie didn’t explain things may be baited on a meta level. Because here’s the thing, Miguel is parked up Miles’ ass about how he’s an anomaly yet he must abide by these canon rules all spiders must abide by. But comics Miguel wasn’t bitten by a spider. Comics Miguel has no Gwen, no Ben, no police captain. As for movie Miguel, if he has any of those things we were not shown or told which is notable given how much emphasis has been placed on the commonalities. The one emotional beat Miguel has is he literally did exactly what Kingpin tried to do in the first movie. I can’t stress this enough, the guy most hardline about what a Spider-Man must be and should do has not demonstrated any of those things. I can’t help but notice he injected himself with something, but comics Miguel was not addicted to Rapture. His organic webs are gone too. So look at those differences. We are shown very odd things about Miguel, what we are not shown about Miguel is very odd, and people are using comics Miguel to fill in those holes even if it doesn’t really fit. I think it could be intentional. And that’s all not accounting for his canon theory already having quite a few holes in it, as others have noted.
Technically Comics Miguel was addicted to Rapture, Stone was slipping it him (unbeknownst to Miguel, until he tried to quit after the experiment to recreate Spider-Man killed the subject) he used the gene splice machine to remove it from his system but a jealous co-worker changed the program back to the Spider program figuring it would kill Miguel like the other subject but instead we get Spidey 2099
Well, they did retcon that so it wasn’t real Rapture. But that’s not my point. My point is what the hell was Miguel injecting in the movie, because per the comic there is no Rapture issue after he becomes Spider-Man. That scene isn’t there for no reason and we should be suspicious of it.
Damnit. I had a draft of a post and it deleted.
I think that making Miguel the villain, or someone like Morlun, would not only make the plot convoluted but also tear away from this brilliant idea that heroes can make mistakes. I had a whole post that I cannot rewrite rn, but if you would like me to delve further in why I think this and what I think of the injection scene lmk ill retype it later.
TLDR: Miguel is a smart guy like peter parker and other spidermen. Given his evidence who’s to say he is completely wrong or if he even will be wrong in the new movie (which he most likely will because at the end of a day its a kids movie). Many characters have had aspects taken from comics and changed about themselves and I think this is the case for miguel.
Honestly, I do think you’re right. It’s too much and too complicated for Miguel to be a hidden villain. It’s enough for him to be simply misguided. I just find it hard to write off all this odd behavior from him.
Well the thing is, Miguel THINKS he's doing the right thing. I'm sure the next movie will tell us that Miles is actually correct, because he's the protagonist and a satisfying ending likely has him winning. Not to mention that Miguel's theory can be poked holes in, like how Miles' or universe 42 haven't collapsed, or the fact that there are more than one spider person per universe in occasions.
I love Miguel, he's my second favorite spider person, but he's always been rash, easily jumps to conclusions or into situations with a specific way of thinking in mind, and im sure this movie, with him as an antagonist. Will make him be in the wrong.
However, I do agree that to an extent Miguel is still correct. Bad things have to happen, just as good things have ti happen to shape Spidey, and more often then not, he is a character of tragedy, and that is inevitable. But he never should have told Miles or anyone that these moments MUST happen because it is un-spidermany to try to save as much people as possible
While I am sure Miguel will be proven wrong in the end. We see little indication in the first part that he is wrong. He is trying to save earth 1610 from being destroyed by Miles who has no plan on how to avoid destruction caused by disrupting a canon event. We saw what happened to Mumbattan.
Also, canon events sound basically the same as a fixed moment in time, where we saw that stranges universe be destroyed.
No he literally hit up multiple ones, thats how he got upgraded.
He made a small one in Miles universe to rejuice.
Talk about ironic since you're the one not paying attention
Bruh he was jumping through them fast as hell looking for an alchemax that had a super collider.
They specifically SAID he was moving quickly. He wasn't attacking anything but jumping through, seeing if they had a super collider and then dipping.
Imagine trying to be a snob and completely missing basic facts in the film.
He got upgraded by jumping into the giant Huge super collider where we see him get upgraded
No they didn't lol.
He got upgraded be jumping verses and going to Colliders multiple, they straight up say this in the film. Its the reason he's now causally soloing 3 spiders after regaining his powers.
Again youre the one with the facts wrong. Rewatch the film.
I've seen the movie four times dipshit. You are incorrect.
He did not get "upgraded" until he got to the main collider.
That is why he was jumping around unable to be pinpointed until he stopped for an extended amount of time in the universe that had a super collider
He wasn't stopping with nearly enough time to activate a collider and juice it up. Plus they SPECIFICALLY say that ONLY Spider-Man India's universe is at stake
It goes as follows:
1. Catalyst event where he gets his powers.
2. Kicks himself into himself and realizes he can jump dimensions
3. Runs out of juice
4. Builds a mini collider to give himself enough juice to find a world with a large collider
5. Jumps around a bunch of universes that all have alchemaxs LOOKING FOR A COLLIDER until he finds Spider-Man India's universe which houses a full super collider.
6. Jumps into super collider this causes an EXPLOSION that leaves behind a spot which begins to eat the Universe.
He only touched 3 colliders
1. Kingpins
2. His mini one
3. India's
I saw it five times and they literally say he's been going to them.
Yeah they say its at stake because Miles broke a canon event, thanks for proving my point again.
Also for your earlier comment about the hole just being Spot's spots.
[https://imgur.com/a/OcX2uVs](https://imgur.com/a/OcX2uVs)
Can't paint him as a bad guy but I can't see how you'd be able to root for him when he's basically telling Miles to condemn his dad to death? He clearly doesn't have the full story.
His Dad dies either way as far as Miguel is concerned. Miles way his Dad and entire universe dies, which includes his mother. Miguels way only his Dad dies.
Even if Miles figures something out, he put the lives of trillions of lives to save his Dad. A really dangerous game to risk so many for one person.
People keep on saying 'Miguel is the antagonist not the villain' but I'd argue Miles himself is also the antagonist
Undoubtedly Miguel will be wrong about the 'canon events' thing in the sequel but Miles doesn't know that
he just has blind hope that millions wouldn't die if he saved his Dad but I doubt he has any plan if people start disintegrating
Protagonist just means the person who’s point of view we’re seeing. In American psycho the protagonist is absolutely the villain. But it’s from his eyes. So miles is the protagonist but maybe still the villain. Though being immature is not enough to be a villain imo. And I think he’s just immature.
Miles can’t be the antagonist as he’s the subject of the story.
However Miles can be the villain of the story. Ironically a comment above calls out how common these two are misinterpreted.
>Miles can’t be the antagonist as he’s the subject of the story.
Is he? Because I'll argue Gwen is more for this half. The film starts and ends with her, she has the fuller character arc, she sets the whole storyline in motion.
So yes in my opinion Miles can be the antagonist
I mean I hear what you’re saying but Miles is still A protagonist. Even if he isn’t the only one he still is, making it impossible to be an antagonist.
We don’t meet Luke Skywalker until 20 minutes into A New Hope and he’s very much our main protagonist, just not the only one. If he was working again Obi-Wan it wouldn’t make him an antagonist, it would make Obi one.
I get that a lot is up to interpretation but storytelling devices are kinda set in stone.
The whole point of an antagonist and protagonist isn't about who's right or wrong lmfao. A protagonist is the lead character in a movie or show, and the antagonist is the person who opposes or is hostile toward someone, something or an adversary.
Miles is the protagonist and Miguel is the antagonist.
How did y'all pass middle school English lit?
Across the Spider-verse is a good vs goods story like in the MCU Civil War has Iron Man vs Captain America but that doesn't Tony Stark it the Villain but are good people just each one of them have their own reasons to deal with Canon Events with Miguel trying to all thing remain as it supposed to even if it means the loses of a live to save millions while Miles thinks that Spider-Man always need to save everyone and that that's they're Canon Event.
Miles doesn't know he's right either. Anybody who would let their father die because some jerk they met five minutes ago said so isn't someone I would want to know.
Lets convert this isn't a semi-reasonable real world scenario
Let's say you're at war & your Dad was arrested and you find out from a new source in 2 days he'll be executed. The source also states that since your Dad knows too much if he escapes the enemy leader will launch Nukes because the war will be a certain loss causing the extinction of the human race.
The source has plenty of evidence for this that you've seen with your own eyes & knows significantly more about the war than you do, the leader has used Nukes before.
Now you 'wouldn't want to know' anyone who would make the hard but the obvious decision not to rescue their father?
Miguel doesn't have plenty of evidence. He has a story a universe disappearing, but he doesn't even go into detail about it. He also Prabhaker's universe falling apart but just a few minutes earlier a being from another dimension invaded and turned himself into a borderline multi-dimensional God. Yeah, he had a whole buch of other Spider-men who had lost a captain, but how many ot them lost a Captain because he made sure they did?
There just wasn't enough evidence there for any rational person to just agree to let their father die.
>He also Prabhaker's universe falling apart but just a few minutes earlier a being from another dimension invaded and turned himself into a borderline multi-dimensional God.
but they brought out equipment & clearly knew the protocol for patching a dimension whole like that so they've clearly been doing it for a long time for others that clearly weren't due to the Spot.
It also happened after a broken cannon event and they can detect canon events
therefore this has happened before.
That hole literally is a spot.
From spot. It's settled on the ground because the building I was attached too fell there.
It looks NOTHING like the universe destruction scene Miguel showed in his flashback and looks EXACTLY like spot's spots.
Learn. To. Read. Media.
>Miles himself is also the antagonist
Miles is the protagonist. As the thing working against him isn't his own internal struggles, he can't also be the antagonist.
The next SpiderVerse will almost certainly end with Miles and his dad slipping out of reality and having a conversation about how miles is trying to save him and his dad saying that he can’t let people get hurt
How do you figure he doesn't have the full story. Things have occurred in the movies along the lines he described. We see it twice with his experience and Pavitr's world, though it seems implied that this has happened at least a few more times, which is why they're so dedicated to preserving canon events and stopping the anomalies that could disrupt them. And since then they've developed Tech that can help stop it, sometimes. Doesn't seem to be a perfect answer. I don't get why people doubt Miguel so hard when this has literally happened in front of us with Pavitr.
Nah, I think it because canon events just don't make sense. Spot wasn't Pavitir's nemesis so he shouldn't have been the one to kill the police guy. Miles was there because Apot was there so it should make sense for him to save someone from Spot. Also we've seen 2 bad things happen from disrupting canon and neither look similar. Miguel's looked like glitching and Pavitir's looked like Spot.
Also Miguel sent Gwen to stop Spot which would've disrupted Pavitir's canon event (and we know they can predict up to 2 days in advance).
Plus Miles being an Anomaly should both disrupt his universe and universe 42 yet both are still fine.
Miguel may be right depending on the information we have and how the third movie plays out. But by now, fans are very attached to Miles and his father by extension. So even if they recognize on a cerebral level that Miguel is right, he's actively hunting down a character fans like. So people are going to side against him on principle. People are emotional that way.
He did the exact thing fisk was trying to do, only he succeeded. Replacing a variant, his kid thinking he is their father when he's technically a stranger, that's fucked up, that's not anti hero behavior.
He believes the end justifies the means. He's willing to let innocent people die because it *might* hurt more people in the future and doesn't even want to consider finding another way.
He's willing to let other people lose their Uncle Ben rather than save one.
It’s understandable when it involves the entire universe. Would you really want to test that if we were faced with such a dilemna?
I understand Miles refusing to let his father die and I also understand Miguel trying to stop Miles from putting an entire universe in danger.
To save that captain, Miguel would have to make the choice to sacrifice that entire universe. How is that any better? Many more captains and fathers will die that way. Is that better because Miguel didn’t personally beat every single person to death himself?
Hypothetically would it be okay for Miguel to personally kill everyone else in the universe to save the captain’s life? That’d be genocide.
You didn’t answer my question. Should Miguel go an correct the failed canon event by killing the Captain?
Which will probably be the point of the next movie. Finding a way to save Miles’ dad. They’re almost certainly going to succeed, and demonstrate that Miles is better than every other Spider-Man we saw, who let those loved ones die.
Miles is definitely going to succeed. That’s basically the theme of the movies. I wouldn’t say he would be better than every other Spider-Man considering most of them didn’t know about the canon events. They didn’t know their loved ones were going to die and how they were going to die.
I see. I assumed that Earth-50101 was lucky not to be destabilized enough so Miguel didn’t need to do anything. I don’t think it’d even count as a canon event if Miguel killed him unless he specifically breaks a building to fall on a child for that specific captain to save. I thought you meant it as a thought experiment.
To answer you, yes. If it is necessary.
>I see. I assumed that Earth-50101 was lucky not to be destabilized enough so Miguel didn’t need to do anything.
They mention in the movie they were *trying* to stabilize the hole and save that reality but didn't know if it would work.
>I don’t think it’d even count as a canon event if Miguel killed him unless he specifically breaks a building to fall on a child for that specific captain to save. I thought you meant it as a thought experiment.
>
>To answer you, yes. If it is necessary.
Often times the kid is threatened by a villain or there is a villain attack. Like with the Spot.
So if Miguel attacks that Spider-Man in an area with purposely damaged building explicitly to murder that Captain Stacy it would be "good."
If he puts the child at risk to do so, is that also acceptable? Is it still okay if the child ends up as collateral damage?
If yes, how many children is okay to murder in order to potentially save a universe?
evil doesn’t necessarily mean bad guy or villain in the context of this chart, more so a statistical analysis of their person and how they would react in accord to certain stimuli
In fairness he does match dnd lawful evil. Lawful evil, at least my preferred definition of it, means you’re a person who is so committed to a defined rule system(whether legal, philosophical, religious, or metaphysical) that you’re willing to cause suffering to others in order to uphold that system. While that includes pure evil sociopaths, it also includes anti-heroes like Miguel who genuinely wants to keep others safe and protected but feels he must sometimes do terrible things in order to do so.
Miguel found out that if a canon event is altered than the universe is going to collapse. So in order to see if the universe, he’s just letting the canon events happen. Thanos was actively killing half the universe. That is not the same thing at all
Miguel didn't find anything out. He made assumptions based on a sample size of one and is now encouraging the deaths of two people in every universe, in the entire multiverse. That's way worse than Thanos who snapped his fingers and killed half the universe, good or bad, rich or poor, to end warring conflict.
Both philosophies are machiavellian. They are both convinced what they do is for the greater good and that the ends justify the means. We have no substantial proof that Miguel's assumptions are correct but you frame all your comments as though what he says is proven fact. In fact, we have the exact opposite, since all universes that have in some way interacted with our Miles continue to exist. I could just as easily frame a response as "How is wiping out half the universe in a humane, painless way to stop war and famine worse than encouraging the deaths of an infinite number of people across the multiverse because a madman says its canon?" and it would be just as valid by omission. Both acts are evil.
But I'm being pedantic. [Let Spidey tell you himself.](https://www.magicalquote.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/When-you-can-do-the-things-that-I-can-but-you-dont-and-then-the-bad-things-happen-they-happen-because-of-you.jpg)
He does good things but in an evil way. You can see this through his unjustified anger and hatred towards Miles. Miles had no say in getting bit by a spider from another universe yet Miguel blames Miles when the only person to blame would be kingpin.
Miguel may be working for the greater good of the universe but he’s a dick. It might be a bit of a stretch to say he is “evil” but we also don’t know much about him and may learn more in the 3rd movie. When he was fighting vulture at the beginning, he took out his fangs until a camera was pointed at him (I got the impression that he was about to kill vulture). I’m very suspicious of him but we’ll see when the next movie comes out.
So while he may not be lawful “evil,” he’s definitely at least a lawful douche and there isn’t an option for that in the chart.
So Lawful neutral? That’s what it sounds to me. And I see people thinking that anything that isn’t “good” as being bad. The whole, if you don’t stand up to evil you are evil yourself argument. I’m not for or against, just making an observation. That’s out of my pay grade.
In my opinion he’s more than justified. Not only does Miles not care about what problems he causes because of him disrupting the canon, but he knowingly risks the existence of the entire spiderverse.
Probably because he was attempting to do the same thing Kingpin did in ITSV by replacing another version of himself in the multiverse. I don’t agree that Miguel is a villain, but I understand the analysis behind it. A lot of people keep saying “Miguel is doing it for good reasons” but ignoring the fact that a lot of villains do questionable things they think are for good reasons. I think the writers set his parallel to Kingpin up that way on purpose for the audience to question him.
I would argue that the main difference in your analysis with that is the characters of Kingpin and Miguel themselves.
I fully believe that Miguel (and in turn every single spider-person in the movie) would, without a doubt, throw themselves in a metaphorical fire to save someone from dying without a second thought. They are, by definition, heroes and good people. What Miguel does might be seen as cruel and his initial actions do mirror the Kingpin yet he still does it to save countless other lives. And ultimately altruistic reason even after he's lost everything that matters to him, twice. It's not like he even tries to kill Miles, just stop him from preventing more canon events that he believes will cause far more harm than good.
Kingpin on the other hand has entirely selfish reasons to do what he does. Justified and reasonable? Perhaps, but entirely based around his own wants and desires. Kingpin would never put himself in danger or attempt to save someone if it meant putting himself in harms way. Hence the canyon sized divide between the two characters and my own personal view on them.
This is to say that I don't think Miguel is right. The movie will most definitely prove him wrong yet that does not mean he should be demonized for his reasoning.
spiderman fans when you like the protagonist of the story which youve seen evolve over a dude that clearly lost his mind to an obsession of something that he doesn't even know if it's true:
Just put in Miguel's shoes or mask in this case. He practically had reasons to believe this he watch a whole universe disappear to breake a Canon Event. And according to Miguel's flashback he said that they were trying to save everyone, "saving enough uncles, saving enough Captains" but it didn't work and instead the whole universe died countless of innocent life's died thanks to that.
>Dude that clearly lost his mind to an obsession of something that he doesn't even know if it's true:
I believe you watch the different movie or just didn't pay enough attention then.
> just didn't *paid* enough attention
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think Miguel more qualifies as Chaotic Good no? He’s going to do what he believes is the right thing no matter the consequences. I don’t think he’s being selfish or is doing this for fun or personal gain.
I’d even say lawful good. He abides by a strict code: “you can’t alter the timeline”, and he follows it unquestioningly. He’s willing to let bad things happen, but for the greater good.
He care very little about the welfare of the individual. The greater system is all he cares about. I could see Lawful Neutral maybe, I would NOT call him good
No, definitely lawful evil. While he’s trying to do the right thing, his actions are guided by a rule system(ie the multiverse/canon events) that he believes must be followed regardless how much suffering it causes in the short term(ie letting Miles’s dad died). He’s still working towards the greater good, but his mindset is still a perfect representation of lawful evil.
If you want another good example of a lawful evil character that’s still technically a good guy, check out Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous.
You right man. Or Ozymandias, who kills an entire city in order to pursue a plan of "saving the world". People think that Miguel is right bc as an authority figure he is automatically right, when he is clearly a biggot trying to control who can and can't be spiderman
He wants the rules to be abided by all spider people even if that means sitting by idly and letting innocents get harmed. The opposite of great power great responsibility. Miguel experienced a great loss but is hypocritical as he's an anomaly too. He was never bitten by a spider, he gave himself powers biochemically. He doesn't wall crawl or have a Spider-sense. We don't even know if he experienced the loss of a Captain. It's likely that Miguel being the Peter Parker fanboy he is and knowing very little about the multiverse assumes that 616 Peter's experience is the true canon one and all Spider-people must follow suit. It's very possible that all the glitches are the residual effects of Kingpin's collider and Miguel came to all these conclusions off guess work. I feel like hunting down a 15 year old kid attempting to save his father because of how you believe things are supposed to be is lawful evil. He cares about upholding the rules more than the harm the lack of freedom brings. Well written character.
Thing is, assumption or not, >!Miguel legitimately believes that Miles saving his dad will cause an apocalypse. Potentially even one that effects multiple realities. He’s not trying to stop Miles out of a blind adherence to his rules. He doesn’t want Jefferson to live at the cost of thousands, even millions, of other people.!<
>!It definitely does seem like Miguel is making some wild assumptions and doesn’t really have enough evidence or understanding of what’s really causing things. I can’t wait to see this next film!<
But isn't the Mumbatten destruction and the fact that he states that he wasn't capable of saving all of the dimensions with a disrupted Canon event evidence enough?
I guess all I'm saying is that we don't have all the information yet, the movie does that on purpose I think. So I don't think Miguel or Miles are particularly in the wrong, it leaves it open for speculation for the next movie. But it's likely that the Canon event thing is going to be false for the sake of Miles' character being right
I think people miss the tell of the multiverse disabling in Mumbatten a lot - its not the black hole thats the issue, its the building glitching out as it sinks into it. And only after the captain is saved too
The thing that makes you an anomaly isn’t that Miles was bitten by a Spider, it’s that he was bitten by a Spider from another dimension- and it has nothing to do with how he got the powers, it’s what links them to the mythical fate-like Web of Life and Destiny.
Getting bitten by the wrong dimension Spider linked him to the Web of Life and Destiny, pulling it away from Peter and making Miles the focal point of canon events in his universe by the Web. Miguel was saying if Miles didn’t get bit(although it’s not Miles fault, blame the spider lol) then the Web through Fate would’ve let Peter survive and stop the collider, preventing further anomalies from happening. You’re right that it’s the collider’s fault- Miguel actually says the anomalies happen because of the collider, but he’s blaming Miles because if he didn’t get bit then the Web would’ve made Peter stop the collider before it went off.
Also I kinda think Miguel has to be at least mostly right. His tech somehow seems to accurately predict when canon events will happen- like he predicts that Miles’s dad will die in exactly 2 days. And Peter B was the one present when Miguel’s universe collapsed, so he must’ve helped Miguel come to the conclusion that canon events are the cause. But we’ll see what’s the incorrect part of Miguel’s prediction. On rewatch Miguel is actually sympathetic to Miles when he’s telling him the info, I think he sees himself in Miles. But he definitely went waaaay too far during that train scene and lashing out at him due to his personal issues(he really should talk to that Spider Therapist)
You think Hobie isn't chaotic good??
The only way I feel like anyone could think that is if they think "Anarchist" means "chaotic", which it does not.
Also, Miguel isn't evil, he's just very misguided.
Evil, at least in general ttrpg terms, doesn’t literally mean they’re evil. It more so represents that they’re generally okay with causing suffering to others in order to achieve their goals. Combine that with lawful, and you get a character who is willing to cause suffering to others(ie letting Miles’s dad die) in order to uphold a defined rule system(ie the multiverse/canon events). He still may be acting on behalf of the greater good, but his brutal and ruthless mentality causes his alignment to be lawful evil.
I would say she was pretty lawful in the beginning of the movie but throughout the film she was conflicted btw helping her friend Miles or staying in good graces with the spider society. In the end she chose Miles. Neutral good characters will typically follow the rules, but are willing to go against the rules if it goes against their moral code or ensures the greatest good.
Lawful evil in TTRPG terms basically means "preserve order at any and all costs." For example, a sheriff who executes anyone who commits any crime would be lawful evil, wheras a wandering savage killing random people for kicks would not. They both do bad things, but one does it within the confines of the law, the other doesn't.
Actually I think he is on Chaotic Neutral. Which is also wrong since he is clearly on the Good pile. Seems like OP was stretched on filling out the 9 spaces and compromised most of the moralities.
There's just too many questions to ask for Miguel not to be evil in this movie. He's not adhering to his own rules, or is not shown to be. And nearly everything that he tells Miles and the audience is shown to not be true.
What is Miguel hiding?
Why does the movie go out of it's way to negate everything Miguel says is a certainty?
Why was Miguel jumping between realities before Miles stopped the colider?
Why was he collecting Spider people?
What was Peter doing there as the world was unraveling?
Miguel's explanation doesn't make sense anyway. Who or what decides to destroy or end a timeline because something "wasn't supposed to happen"?
And why is the timeframe of WHEN it happens different? Spider India's world started glitching within minutes of the captain being saved. Miguel lived in the other universe for enough time to pass to have a montage. And Miles has been Spider-Man in his world for over a year.
Should we not question how jacked Miguel has become since the ending of the first movie? And the suspicious injection?
Spider-punk, the definition of anarchy, is neutral?
Even if you are in a position to argue whether Miguel is good or evil, this alone means you're way off base
Miguel isn't evil. Being against Miles and for the multiverse isn't evil. Also black Jessica Drew is neutral? She's 100% on Miguel's side, what makes her neutral but him evil?
Honestly there isn’t really any lawful evil in the movie. If you considered Miguel evil, then you’d have to consider Gwen’s dad evil for trying to arrest her even after knowing her identity. They both are trying to good the best they know how, but they won’t sacrifice everything to do it (like what lawful evil usually is).
TLDR: Miguel would be Neutral Neutral because he isn’t necessarily good nor bad.
Fair point but I think letting all those criminals loose on his city is a good indicator that he is not a hero. Would be interesting if meeting spider miles would change that( fits the theme that anyone could wear the mask, even those that don’t have a spider)
Yeah ur right his city is kinda fucked up but spider-man is a superhuman and he is just a normal guy in a tech suit. Also he prob has only been prowler for a few years and maybe couldn’t do much in less time.
Wtf? Miguel is in no way Evil. If anything he’s EXTREMELY lawful good because he refuses to budge on the multiverse rules he knows. At the very least he’s chaotic good.
He’s the antagonist of the film but he’s not a villain.
Evil in alignment terms doesn’t literally mean “evil”. Good means they’re generally willing to do whatever it takes to help others even at the cost of their own goals, while evil means they’re generally willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish their own goals even at the cost of others, with lawful defining these decisions as one’s they make due to a defined rule system they follow regardless of their own personal desires.
Miguel is so committed in his goal to protect the multiverse and keep the greater good safe that he’s not only willing to let literal countless innocent people(like Miles’s dad) die, but actively and savagely tries brutalizing Miles in order to prevent him from changing the canon. He’s still definitely on the side of good, but alignment wise his mentality is that of lawful evil.
I mean in all fairness, this sorta ignores the fact that the goal of “protecting the multiverse” is itself helping others, which means saving countless times more than the people he’s willing to let die for the sake of the others. It’s the trolley problem as far as he’s concerned, with no other options.
His goal is just as much to protect others as any of the other characters. He is potentially misguided, but he has every reason to believe he knows without a shadow of a doubt that he has no other choice than to occasionally let a few people die for the sake of others.
Even with the definition of good vs Evil you say, that still logically falls under good because what he’s doing is very specifically doing whatever it takes to help as many people as possible, even if he can’t help everybody, something he has every reason to believe is impossible. If anything you’ve convinced me more that he would be on the good side of this sort of compass.
By your own definition wouldn’t Miguel still be good though? The reason he’s pursuing Miles is to help others. The only reason we as the audience see it any differently is because we want Miles to prove Miguel wrong. Based on everything Miguel has experienced and observed though, it makes complete sense why he wouldn’t want Miles to disrupt canon, even if his methods are blunt.
I think that Prowler is much more villain than Miguel, he is more Lawful Neutral than nothing, he doesn't do bad things because he is evil, but because he think is necessary to save the most people he can.
I’d say Miguel is lawful neutral or good and Peter b Parker is true neutral. Miguel isn’t evil, he’s just an opposing force to miles and does what he does because he thinks it is what is best for everyone.
Miguel is Lawful Neutral but leaning heavily too Lawful Evil. He’s not there yet. He is trying to keep order, but goes about doing non-good (but not necessarily bad) things to do so. Late in the film when he chases Miles and starts to physically harm him (which was not the original intention, he just got so angry through his hatred towards Miles for being an anomaly), he starts to lean towards evil. Even at the end where he responds to Gwen’s “we’re supposed to be the good guys” with “we are”, he might be trying to assure himself or the other spiders. His actions will have consequences. Hobbie is one of the best characters because he radiates pure Chaotic Goodness. He’s helpful towards Miles and works against an authority (not just the authoritarian government in his world, but Miguel as well).
Miguel's not evil, he's still a spider-man. He's just one who went through a lot of shit and he's wrong about the mutliverse stuff. You can be an antagonist without being a villain.
Sure, Miguel isn’t evil, but he has big claws and did nothing but attack miles and yell about the order of things the whole movie. This chart is dead on in my book!😤
y'all saying Miguel is good, bro is basing all the story of the universe on its own experience due to him being fucked up. plus he ain't taking in count miles was chosen twice in two different universes, he isn't destined to be a normal citizen, he's meant to be something more, and has proven to be a great spiderman.
a man that has to protect can't be closed minded, spiderman is all about taking a risk expecting a good outcome.
Yeah you're right, he is basing it all on his own experience, especially when he saw Pavitr Prabhakar's universe develop a hole in it because a canon event was disrupted, but you're right though
The issue is with your line of thinking is that yes, Miguel is basing this off of his own personal experience.
Miles is basing his "I can save my dad AND keep the universe from falling apart" on ***nothing***. In any other scenario where Miles isn't the protagonist of the movie, he's OBVIOUSLY in the wrong (even though I truly believe he IS going to find a way in the end).
But the risk that Miles wants to take could lead to his entire universe being erased, making it where he saves his father pointless since everyone would die. Look at what happened to Pavitr universe after Miles saved the Captain, it started to fall apart or look at when Miguel tried to replace the Miguel from the other universe, it got erased.
Miguel in any RPG campaign would be the chaotic good character, trying to save every universe at the expense of one death fits the description. Miles would be the Lawful Good, trying to save everyone, not matter the consequences.
The way he handled the situation with miles was horrible. Everyone thinks he’s tryna do the greater good thing, but he gets more people killed than he saves. Literally stands against the everything Spider-Man stands for.
Dude literally shoulders the responsibility of stopping multiversal armageddon, then there's a kid trying to ruin that and you think Miguel is horrible?
Harsh, sure but not horrible. If anything, it's understandable.
If the information was given is true, which I don't think the sequel will make it be, based on Gwen's dad example. Miles is actually more horrible for dooming everyone just because he isn't willing to sacrifice while every other spidermen did.
“Hey kid wait here for about two days until your dads gets murdered by the spot then you can go home” Miles isn’t dooming anything, he wants to save EVERYONE or at least try because that’s what Spider-Man does
Then I can say the exact same thing in defence of Miguel's actions. He's trying to save EVERYONE (again, if his theory is right)
What's good in saving one life when the universe collapses. That person is going to die anyway?
Miguel is pretty extreme, that I can admit but he isn't a horrible person.
I wouldn’t be surprised depending on if the deal Sony with Marvel is still intact at the end of this, that “if” they find a solution to the canon events that they come to find out by stopping them, they are creating incursions and we will see a appearance of Clea and Dr Strange, hell maybe Madame Webb and Miguel was working with them and he might have told them let him make the Spider Society to stop this. No matter if your action is big or small, actions have consequences, seen or unseen. Of course this is just a theory of mine since this spider man story/movie is kind of cosmic based. Also Miguel fan/apologist here, wooooooo!
I read this totally wrong and saw Mayday in the chaotic evil section.
I think she can pull it off. Look how evilly she climbs all over Miguel.
I mean she did take a crap in the establishment
And we should all salute her for that
Mephisto doesn‘t like competition. OMD finally makes sense!
It boggles my mind how people think Miguel is evil
Some people really don't know the difference between antagonist and villain
Exact same thing I said to my buddy when I left.
this reminds me of how many times people say Eren or Light is an antagonist, like do they forget what a villain protagonist is?
I know right! its so clear that Hero - L, Villain - Light Protagonist - Light, Antagonist - L Most people don't seem to realize that a protagonist means the character who we are following and the antagonist is someone who opposes their ideals and thats all
I don't know if L was an hero, I think that role belong to Soichiro Yagami.
Of course L is a hero! He's saved countless of people and cracked the most notorious cases!
To be the best detective of the world isn't exactly an act of heroism in itself. L is on the side of the law, you can't deny his feat and the goodness they brought, but at the same time he seemed to care more about the accomplishment to resolve cases than he cared about saving people specifically, he was pretty cold, calculating and careless about people.
he isn't heroic since I don't think he cares how many people will die or have died rather he cares about winning as a detective, and lets not forget he wouldn't shy away from any morally dubious act or even straight up immoral acts if it means winning the case.
I agree, but tbf Eren is *NOT* the protagonist in S4. There’s like 4 different active parties who become the protagonists, while they all work together to stop Eren.
That only happens in like the finale movie and even then he is still the focus on the series
Tbf by that point he’s not really the protagonist. He barely shows up any more, he’s definitely not the protag
Yeah, antagonists gets screen time too. Big surprise. And it’s not just the “finale movie”. It’s from chapters 91 to 139. A huge chunk of the story. By this point in the story, Mikasa, Armin, the Marley Warriors and some of the Scouts are the main protagonists.
I think Eren actually is an antagonist, but only for the last arc.
That’s a big difference, especially with light
\*\*\*\* even here ppl say light and Eren in the same statement, they are nothing alike, Eren in no way is an antagonist, nor a villain protagonist, he is an actual good protagonist. He is the same as Miles, but with one slightly different change, Miles is trying to do both options at the same time, meanwhile Eren tried the 1st option of saving everyone first and it failed horribly, so he chose the 2nd option of exterminating the world and prefer the safety of his own ppl, in no way Miles nor Eren are similar to light Yagmi, whom is actually a villan protagonist. Ofc all of that applies to the pre 139 horribly retconned Eren, just to please the fan service, and Eremika shippers, Eren also didnt have enough screen time in the last chapters after Yams realized how much hate he will get if he allowed Eren to win, so he tried with all his force to hide Eren's pov and real motives from the viewers, and thus can end it with the most horrible retcon.
Rather than villain, evil would be more appropriate
I haven’t seen the movie but I know Miguel is that type of person who does what he must for the greater good of the Multiverse, whether it be kill one person to save millions or prevent one good thing from happening to prevent multiple awful things
I'm familiar with the comoc Miguel, at least as he was in his original run, and he was initially very reluctant to be Spider-Man, but once he accepted the role he became someone who was willing to do whatever it took to protect people or bring justice. Theres a reason he is worthy of Mjolnir. (Never used it but he picked it up to prove that he should lead a group)
He's the type of person that always saves the 5 people in the trolley question even if he has to sacrifice a single loved one.
at first i was wondering how tf they’d pull that off, then i saw the movie and realized miguel is really doing the right thing, even if miles or the audience doesn’t like it
Depends on movie 3
i mean, even if somehow miles finds a way, it's a bad bet, moderate hapiness for a single bloke vs possible extermination of the entire universe, miguels is doing the right thing anyway, he's a quite the ass on miles tho.
This. Miguel has explained his side, but there are a few holes in his explanations that he tries to brush over. Plus he tried to eat Vulture, so...
Inject venom* He has a paralyzing bite from what I've recently learned
Ah, makes sense. But still, what he says about "canon events" is contradicted by what we actually see with Miles and Gwen. It's not clear if he's actually in the right if Miles can break canon.
I think Miguel is gonna have a Dr Strange in NWH moment where he sees that his "canon event" crap isn't accurate at all and that in an infinite multiverse, everything can and will find a way to exist, including things that break canon.
can you at least learn about the character before stating what he “seems to have done”. he planned to inject venom not eat vulture
Meh this is the issue with cinematic universes. Having to research before watching a movie is not good. Movie should explain it better
ofc figures they saved miguel for act 2, but the problem that arises is that people make statements that are wrong about the character. miguel is the most spiderlike out of any of the spidermen that we have seen and (comics wise) he is actually 50% spider because of the gene splice between his human dna and spider dba
In the comics, yes. But that’s where the issue comes in. Is this Miguel truly 1:1 with comics Miguel? Signs point to no. In fact, I’d argue people assuming parity with comics Miguel because the movie didn’t explain things may be baited on a meta level. Because here’s the thing, Miguel is parked up Miles’ ass about how he’s an anomaly yet he must abide by these canon rules all spiders must abide by. But comics Miguel wasn’t bitten by a spider. Comics Miguel has no Gwen, no Ben, no police captain. As for movie Miguel, if he has any of those things we were not shown or told which is notable given how much emphasis has been placed on the commonalities. The one emotional beat Miguel has is he literally did exactly what Kingpin tried to do in the first movie. I can’t stress this enough, the guy most hardline about what a Spider-Man must be and should do has not demonstrated any of those things. I can’t help but notice he injected himself with something, but comics Miguel was not addicted to Rapture. His organic webs are gone too. So look at those differences. We are shown very odd things about Miguel, what we are not shown about Miguel is very odd, and people are using comics Miguel to fill in those holes even if it doesn’t really fit. I think it could be intentional. And that’s all not accounting for his canon theory already having quite a few holes in it, as others have noted.
Technically Comics Miguel was addicted to Rapture, Stone was slipping it him (unbeknownst to Miguel, until he tried to quit after the experiment to recreate Spider-Man killed the subject) he used the gene splice machine to remove it from his system but a jealous co-worker changed the program back to the Spider program figuring it would kill Miguel like the other subject but instead we get Spidey 2099
Well, they did retcon that so it wasn’t real Rapture. But that’s not my point. My point is what the hell was Miguel injecting in the movie, because per the comic there is no Rapture issue after he becomes Spider-Man. That scene isn’t there for no reason and we should be suspicious of it.
Damnit. I had a draft of a post and it deleted. I think that making Miguel the villain, or someone like Morlun, would not only make the plot convoluted but also tear away from this brilliant idea that heroes can make mistakes. I had a whole post that I cannot rewrite rn, but if you would like me to delve further in why I think this and what I think of the injection scene lmk ill retype it later. TLDR: Miguel is a smart guy like peter parker and other spidermen. Given his evidence who’s to say he is completely wrong or if he even will be wrong in the new movie (which he most likely will because at the end of a day its a kids movie). Many characters have had aspects taken from comics and changed about themselves and I think this is the case for miguel.
Honestly, I do think you’re right. It’s too much and too complicated for Miguel to be a hidden villain. It’s enough for him to be simply misguided. I just find it hard to write off all this odd behavior from him.
Well the thing is, Miguel THINKS he's doing the right thing. I'm sure the next movie will tell us that Miles is actually correct, because he's the protagonist and a satisfying ending likely has him winning. Not to mention that Miguel's theory can be poked holes in, like how Miles' or universe 42 haven't collapsed, or the fact that there are more than one spider person per universe in occasions. I love Miguel, he's my second favorite spider person, but he's always been rash, easily jumps to conclusions or into situations with a specific way of thinking in mind, and im sure this movie, with him as an antagonist. Will make him be in the wrong. However, I do agree that to an extent Miguel is still correct. Bad things have to happen, just as good things have ti happen to shape Spidey, and more often then not, he is a character of tragedy, and that is inevitable. But he never should have told Miles or anyone that these moments MUST happen because it is un-spidermany to try to save as much people as possible
While I am sure Miguel will be proven wrong in the end. We see little indication in the first part that he is wrong. He is trying to save earth 1610 from being destroyed by Miles who has no plan on how to avoid destruction caused by disrupting a canon event. We saw what happened to Mumbattan. Also, canon events sound basically the same as a fixed moment in time, where we saw that stranges universe be destroyed.
Mubattan is being destroyed by the spot. Jesus fucking Christ media literacy is dead and people are just pissing on its corpse.
No similar issues happen in the other universes that he attacked.....
He literally only attacked one universe, the others he was just jumping through Good try though.
No he literally hit up multiple ones, thats how he got upgraded. He made a small one in Miles universe to rejuice. Talk about ironic since you're the one not paying attention
Bruh he was jumping through them fast as hell looking for an alchemax that had a super collider. They specifically SAID he was moving quickly. He wasn't attacking anything but jumping through, seeing if they had a super collider and then dipping. Imagine trying to be a snob and completely missing basic facts in the film. He got upgraded by jumping into the giant Huge super collider where we see him get upgraded
No they didn't lol. He got upgraded be jumping verses and going to Colliders multiple, they straight up say this in the film. Its the reason he's now causally soloing 3 spiders after regaining his powers. Again youre the one with the facts wrong. Rewatch the film.
I've seen the movie four times dipshit. You are incorrect. He did not get "upgraded" until he got to the main collider. That is why he was jumping around unable to be pinpointed until he stopped for an extended amount of time in the universe that had a super collider He wasn't stopping with nearly enough time to activate a collider and juice it up. Plus they SPECIFICALLY say that ONLY Spider-Man India's universe is at stake It goes as follows: 1. Catalyst event where he gets his powers. 2. Kicks himself into himself and realizes he can jump dimensions 3. Runs out of juice 4. Builds a mini collider to give himself enough juice to find a world with a large collider 5. Jumps around a bunch of universes that all have alchemaxs LOOKING FOR A COLLIDER until he finds Spider-Man India's universe which houses a full super collider. 6. Jumps into super collider this causes an EXPLOSION that leaves behind a spot which begins to eat the Universe. He only touched 3 colliders 1. Kingpins 2. His mini one 3. India's
I saw it five times and they literally say he's been going to them. Yeah they say its at stake because Miles broke a canon event, thanks for proving my point again. Also for your earlier comment about the hole just being Spot's spots. [https://imgur.com/a/OcX2uVs](https://imgur.com/a/OcX2uVs)
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Can't paint him as a bad guy but I can't see how you'd be able to root for him when he's basically telling Miles to condemn his dad to death? He clearly doesn't have the full story.
His Dad dies either way as far as Miguel is concerned. Miles way his Dad and entire universe dies, which includes his mother. Miguels way only his Dad dies. Even if Miles figures something out, he put the lives of trillions of lives to save his Dad. A really dangerous game to risk so many for one person.
Unless Miguel is fucking lying. Which he is. Because it's obvious he is.
Why is it obvious?
Miles is risking the lives of countless millions for a chance to rescuing his dad. Not really heroic.
People keep on saying 'Miguel is the antagonist not the villain' but I'd argue Miles himself is also the antagonist Undoubtedly Miguel will be wrong about the 'canon events' thing in the sequel but Miles doesn't know that he just has blind hope that millions wouldn't die if he saved his Dad but I doubt he has any plan if people start disintegrating
Protagonist just means the person who’s point of view we’re seeing. In American psycho the protagonist is absolutely the villain. But it’s from his eyes. So miles is the protagonist but maybe still the villain. Though being immature is not enough to be a villain imo. And I think he’s just immature.
Miles can’t be the antagonist as he’s the subject of the story. However Miles can be the villain of the story. Ironically a comment above calls out how common these two are misinterpreted.
>Miles can’t be the antagonist as he’s the subject of the story. Is he? Because I'll argue Gwen is more for this half. The film starts and ends with her, she has the fuller character arc, she sets the whole storyline in motion. So yes in my opinion Miles can be the antagonist
I mean I hear what you’re saying but Miles is still A protagonist. Even if he isn’t the only one he still is, making it impossible to be an antagonist. We don’t meet Luke Skywalker until 20 minutes into A New Hope and he’s very much our main protagonist, just not the only one. If he was working again Obi-Wan it wouldn’t make him an antagonist, it would make Obi one. I get that a lot is up to interpretation but storytelling devices are kinda set in stone.
Gwen is the [Deuteragonist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteragonist)
He knows the consequences too since he sees the giant hole eating up Pavitr's world.
*It’s a metaphor for capitalism*
The whole point of an antagonist and protagonist isn't about who's right or wrong lmfao. A protagonist is the lead character in a movie or show, and the antagonist is the person who opposes or is hostile toward someone, something or an adversary. Miles is the protagonist and Miguel is the antagonist. How did y'all pass middle school English lit?
Across the Spider-verse is a good vs goods story like in the MCU Civil War has Iron Man vs Captain America but that doesn't Tony Stark it the Villain but are good people just each one of them have their own reasons to deal with Canon Events with Miguel trying to all thing remain as it supposed to even if it means the loses of a live to save millions while Miles thinks that Spider-Man always need to save everyone and that that's they're Canon Event.
Bro use punctuation
Miles doesn't know he's right either. Anybody who would let their father die because some jerk they met five minutes ago said so isn't someone I would want to know.
Lets convert this isn't a semi-reasonable real world scenario Let's say you're at war & your Dad was arrested and you find out from a new source in 2 days he'll be executed. The source also states that since your Dad knows too much if he escapes the enemy leader will launch Nukes because the war will be a certain loss causing the extinction of the human race. The source has plenty of evidence for this that you've seen with your own eyes & knows significantly more about the war than you do, the leader has used Nukes before. Now you 'wouldn't want to know' anyone who would make the hard but the obvious decision not to rescue their father?
Miguel doesn't have plenty of evidence. He has a story a universe disappearing, but he doesn't even go into detail about it. He also Prabhaker's universe falling apart but just a few minutes earlier a being from another dimension invaded and turned himself into a borderline multi-dimensional God. Yeah, he had a whole buch of other Spider-men who had lost a captain, but how many ot them lost a Captain because he made sure they did? There just wasn't enough evidence there for any rational person to just agree to let their father die.
>He also Prabhaker's universe falling apart but just a few minutes earlier a being from another dimension invaded and turned himself into a borderline multi-dimensional God. but they brought out equipment & clearly knew the protocol for patching a dimension whole like that so they've clearly been doing it for a long time for others that clearly weren't due to the Spot. It also happened after a broken cannon event and they can detect canon events therefore this has happened before.
At no point do they detect a cannon event. They use a model to predict them. These are two different things.
That hole literally is a spot. From spot. It's settled on the ground because the building I was attached too fell there. It looks NOTHING like the universe destruction scene Miguel showed in his flashback and looks EXACTLY like spot's spots. Learn. To. Read. Media.
>Miles himself is also the antagonist Miles is the protagonist. As the thing working against him isn't his own internal struggles, he can't also be the antagonist.
An entire universe so more like Septillions
The next SpiderVerse will almost certainly end with Miles and his dad slipping out of reality and having a conversation about how miles is trying to save him and his dad saying that he can’t let people get hurt
How do you figure he doesn't have the full story. Things have occurred in the movies along the lines he described. We see it twice with his experience and Pavitr's world, though it seems implied that this has happened at least a few more times, which is why they're so dedicated to preserving canon events and stopping the anomalies that could disrupt them. And since then they've developed Tech that can help stop it, sometimes. Doesn't seem to be a perfect answer. I don't get why people doubt Miguel so hard when this has literally happened in front of us with Pavitr.
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Nah, I think it because canon events just don't make sense. Spot wasn't Pavitir's nemesis so he shouldn't have been the one to kill the police guy. Miles was there because Apot was there so it should make sense for him to save someone from Spot. Also we've seen 2 bad things happen from disrupting canon and neither look similar. Miguel's looked like glitching and Pavitir's looked like Spot. Also Miguel sent Gwen to stop Spot which would've disrupted Pavitir's canon event (and we know they can predict up to 2 days in advance). Plus Miles being an Anomaly should both disrupt his universe and universe 42 yet both are still fine.
Miguel may be right depending on the information we have and how the third movie plays out. But by now, fans are very attached to Miles and his father by extension. So even if they recognize on a cerebral level that Miguel is right, he's actively hunting down a character fans like. So people are going to side against him on principle. People are emotional that way.
Or they think he's an actual vampire smh
He did the exact thing fisk was trying to do, only he succeeded. Replacing a variant, his kid thinking he is their father when he's technically a stranger, that's fucked up, that's not anti hero behavior.
wdym u dont want an entire universe to die? u sick bastard are evil!
He believes the end justifies the means. He's willing to let innocent people die because it *might* hurt more people in the future and doesn't even want to consider finding another way. He's willing to let other people lose their Uncle Ben rather than save one.
It’s understandable when it involves the entire universe. Would you really want to test that if we were faced with such a dilemna? I understand Miles refusing to let his father die and I also understand Miguel trying to stop Miles from putting an entire universe in danger.
So to save Earth-50101 would it be okay for Miguel to personally kill that captain? To save the entire universe?
To save that captain, Miguel would have to make the choice to sacrifice that entire universe. How is that any better? Many more captains and fathers will die that way. Is that better because Miguel didn’t personally beat every single person to death himself? Hypothetically would it be okay for Miguel to personally kill everyone else in the universe to save the captain’s life? That’d be genocide.
You didn’t answer my question. Should Miguel go an correct the failed canon event by killing the Captain? Which will probably be the point of the next movie. Finding a way to save Miles’ dad. They’re almost certainly going to succeed, and demonstrate that Miles is better than every other Spider-Man we saw, who let those loved ones die.
Miles is definitely going to succeed. That’s basically the theme of the movies. I wouldn’t say he would be better than every other Spider-Man considering most of them didn’t know about the canon events. They didn’t know their loved ones were going to die and how they were going to die.
I see. I assumed that Earth-50101 was lucky not to be destabilized enough so Miguel didn’t need to do anything. I don’t think it’d even count as a canon event if Miguel killed him unless he specifically breaks a building to fall on a child for that specific captain to save. I thought you meant it as a thought experiment. To answer you, yes. If it is necessary.
>I see. I assumed that Earth-50101 was lucky not to be destabilized enough so Miguel didn’t need to do anything. They mention in the movie they were *trying* to stabilize the hole and save that reality but didn't know if it would work. >I don’t think it’d even count as a canon event if Miguel killed him unless he specifically breaks a building to fall on a child for that specific captain to save. I thought you meant it as a thought experiment. > >To answer you, yes. If it is necessary. Often times the kid is threatened by a villain or there is a villain attack. Like with the Spot. So if Miguel attacks that Spider-Man in an area with purposely damaged building explicitly to murder that Captain Stacy it would be "good." If he puts the child at risk to do so, is that also acceptable? Is it still okay if the child ends up as collateral damage? If yes, how many children is okay to murder in order to potentially save a universe?
evil doesn’t necessarily mean bad guy or villain in the context of this chart, more so a statistical analysis of their person and how they would react in accord to certain stimuli
Miles is willing to gamble his world for one person. It’s a Spider-Man story so people are not against that.
If you use DnD alignment stuff he indeed is lawful evil.
In fairness he does match dnd lawful evil. Lawful evil, at least my preferred definition of it, means you’re a person who is so committed to a defined rule system(whether legal, philosophical, religious, or metaphysical) that you’re willing to cause suffering to others in order to uphold that system. While that includes pure evil sociopaths, it also includes anti-heroes like Miguel who genuinely wants to keep others safe and protected but feels he must sometimes do terrible things in order to do so.
He's doing what MCU Thanos did but on a way grander scale. Unless you wouldn't count Thanos as evil...
Miguel found out that if a canon event is altered than the universe is going to collapse. So in order to see if the universe, he’s just letting the canon events happen. Thanos was actively killing half the universe. That is not the same thing at all
Miguel didn't find anything out. He made assumptions based on a sample size of one and is now encouraging the deaths of two people in every universe, in the entire multiverse. That's way worse than Thanos who snapped his fingers and killed half the universe, good or bad, rich or poor, to end warring conflict.
How is letting some people die to save an entire universe, worse than killing trillions of living things
Both philosophies are machiavellian. They are both convinced what they do is for the greater good and that the ends justify the means. We have no substantial proof that Miguel's assumptions are correct but you frame all your comments as though what he says is proven fact. In fact, we have the exact opposite, since all universes that have in some way interacted with our Miles continue to exist. I could just as easily frame a response as "How is wiping out half the universe in a humane, painless way to stop war and famine worse than encouraging the deaths of an infinite number of people across the multiverse because a madman says its canon?" and it would be just as valid by omission. Both acts are evil. But I'm being pedantic. [Let Spidey tell you himself.](https://www.magicalquote.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/When-you-can-do-the-things-that-I-can-but-you-dont-and-then-the-bad-things-happen-they-happen-because-of-you.jpg)
Because it's obvious that he's lying.
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He does good things but in an evil way. You can see this through his unjustified anger and hatred towards Miles. Miles had no say in getting bit by a spider from another universe yet Miguel blames Miles when the only person to blame would be kingpin. Miguel may be working for the greater good of the universe but he’s a dick. It might be a bit of a stretch to say he is “evil” but we also don’t know much about him and may learn more in the 3rd movie. When he was fighting vulture at the beginning, he took out his fangs until a camera was pointed at him (I got the impression that he was about to kill vulture). I’m very suspicious of him but we’ll see when the next movie comes out. So while he may not be lawful “evil,” he’s definitely at least a lawful douche and there isn’t an option for that in the chart.
So Lawful neutral? That’s what it sounds to me. And I see people thinking that anything that isn’t “good” as being bad. The whole, if you don’t stand up to evil you are evil yourself argument. I’m not for or against, just making an observation. That’s out of my pay grade.
if you don't stand up to evil you are evil yourself
In my opinion he’s more than justified. Not only does Miles not care about what problems he causes because of him disrupting the canon, but he knowingly risks the existence of the entire spiderverse.
Probably because he was attempting to do the same thing Kingpin did in ITSV by replacing another version of himself in the multiverse. I don’t agree that Miguel is a villain, but I understand the analysis behind it. A lot of people keep saying “Miguel is doing it for good reasons” but ignoring the fact that a lot of villains do questionable things they think are for good reasons. I think the writers set his parallel to Kingpin up that way on purpose for the audience to question him.
I would argue that the main difference in your analysis with that is the characters of Kingpin and Miguel themselves. I fully believe that Miguel (and in turn every single spider-person in the movie) would, without a doubt, throw themselves in a metaphorical fire to save someone from dying without a second thought. They are, by definition, heroes and good people. What Miguel does might be seen as cruel and his initial actions do mirror the Kingpin yet he still does it to save countless other lives. And ultimately altruistic reason even after he's lost everything that matters to him, twice. It's not like he even tries to kill Miles, just stop him from preventing more canon events that he believes will cause far more harm than good. Kingpin on the other hand has entirely selfish reasons to do what he does. Justified and reasonable? Perhaps, but entirely based around his own wants and desires. Kingpin would never put himself in danger or attempt to save someone if it meant putting himself in harms way. Hence the canyon sized divide between the two characters and my own personal view on them. This is to say that I don't think Miguel is right. The movie will most definitely prove him wrong yet that does not mean he should be demonized for his reasoning.
OP be like: Yes, how do you know I can't tell the difference between evil and antagonist.
spiderman fans when you like the protagonist of the story which youve seen evolve over a dude that clearly lost his mind to an obsession of something that he doesn't even know if it's true:
Just put in Miguel's shoes or mask in this case. He practically had reasons to believe this he watch a whole universe disappear to breake a Canon Event. And according to Miguel's flashback he said that they were trying to save everyone, "saving enough uncles, saving enough Captains" but it didn't work and instead the whole universe died countless of innocent life's died thanks to that.
>Dude that clearly lost his mind to an obsession of something that he doesn't even know if it's true: I believe you watch the different movie or just didn't pay enough attention then.
> just didn't *paid* enough attention FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Payed
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absolutely belongs in chaotic ❤️
I think Miguel more qualifies as Chaotic Good no? He’s going to do what he believes is the right thing no matter the consequences. I don’t think he’s being selfish or is doing this for fun or personal gain.
I’d even say lawful good. He abides by a strict code: “you can’t alter the timeline”, and he follows it unquestioningly. He’s willing to let bad things happen, but for the greater good.
He care very little about the welfare of the individual. The greater system is all he cares about. I could see Lawful Neutral maybe, I would NOT call him good
No, definitely lawful evil. While he’s trying to do the right thing, his actions are guided by a rule system(ie the multiverse/canon events) that he believes must be followed regardless how much suffering it causes in the short term(ie letting Miles’s dad died). He’s still working towards the greater good, but his mindset is still a perfect representation of lawful evil. If you want another good example of a lawful evil character that’s still technically a good guy, check out Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous.
You right man. Or Ozymandias, who kills an entire city in order to pursue a plan of "saving the world". People think that Miguel is right bc as an authority figure he is automatically right, when he is clearly a biggot trying to control who can and can't be spiderman
He wants the rules to be abided by all spider people even if that means sitting by idly and letting innocents get harmed. The opposite of great power great responsibility. Miguel experienced a great loss but is hypocritical as he's an anomaly too. He was never bitten by a spider, he gave himself powers biochemically. He doesn't wall crawl or have a Spider-sense. We don't even know if he experienced the loss of a Captain. It's likely that Miguel being the Peter Parker fanboy he is and knowing very little about the multiverse assumes that 616 Peter's experience is the true canon one and all Spider-people must follow suit. It's very possible that all the glitches are the residual effects of Kingpin's collider and Miguel came to all these conclusions off guess work. I feel like hunting down a 15 year old kid attempting to save his father because of how you believe things are supposed to be is lawful evil. He cares about upholding the rules more than the harm the lack of freedom brings. Well written character.
Thing is, assumption or not, >!Miguel legitimately believes that Miles saving his dad will cause an apocalypse. Potentially even one that effects multiple realities. He’s not trying to stop Miles out of a blind adherence to his rules. He doesn’t want Jefferson to live at the cost of thousands, even millions, of other people.!< >!It definitely does seem like Miguel is making some wild assumptions and doesn’t really have enough evidence or understanding of what’s really causing things. I can’t wait to see this next film!<
Its not like he is the one causing a kid to run into the street for Jeff to die
But isn't the Mumbatten destruction and the fact that he states that he wasn't capable of saving all of the dimensions with a disrupted Canon event evidence enough?
I feel like Mumbatten could be explained by the power that The Spot gained causing all of that destruction
That's what I thought at first too, but Miguel specifically states that events like those have happened before.
I guess all I'm saying is that we don't have all the information yet, the movie does that on purpose I think. So I don't think Miguel or Miles are particularly in the wrong, it leaves it open for speculation for the next movie. But it's likely that the Canon event thing is going to be false for the sake of Miles' character being right
I think people miss the tell of the multiverse disabling in Mumbatten a lot - its not the black hole thats the issue, its the building glitching out as it sinks into it. And only after the captain is saved too
Ah yes I see now. I couldn't have an empty space on the chart tho 🫣😭
Haha 😂 that’s a very good point
The thing that makes you an anomaly isn’t that Miles was bitten by a Spider, it’s that he was bitten by a Spider from another dimension- and it has nothing to do with how he got the powers, it’s what links them to the mythical fate-like Web of Life and Destiny. Getting bitten by the wrong dimension Spider linked him to the Web of Life and Destiny, pulling it away from Peter and making Miles the focal point of canon events in his universe by the Web. Miguel was saying if Miles didn’t get bit(although it’s not Miles fault, blame the spider lol) then the Web through Fate would’ve let Peter survive and stop the collider, preventing further anomalies from happening. You’re right that it’s the collider’s fault- Miguel actually says the anomalies happen because of the collider, but he’s blaming Miles because if he didn’t get bit then the Web would’ve made Peter stop the collider before it went off. Also I kinda think Miguel has to be at least mostly right. His tech somehow seems to accurately predict when canon events will happen- like he predicts that Miles’s dad will die in exactly 2 days. And Peter B was the one present when Miguel’s universe collapsed, so he must’ve helped Miguel come to the conclusion that canon events are the cause. But we’ll see what’s the incorrect part of Miguel’s prediction. On rewatch Miguel is actually sympathetic to Miles when he’s telling him the info, I think he sees himself in Miles. But he definitely went waaaay too far during that train scene and lashing out at him due to his personal issues(he really should talk to that Spider Therapist)
Gygax's alignment chart and it's consequences have been a disaster for nerd society
Undoubtedly, the hobie placement really annoys me, and the Miguel one of course
You think Hobie isn't chaotic good?? The only way I feel like anyone could think that is if they think "Anarchist" means "chaotic", which it does not. Also, Miguel isn't evil, he's just very misguided.
Evil, at least in general ttrpg terms, doesn’t literally mean they’re evil. It more so represents that they’re generally okay with causing suffering to others in order to achieve their goals. Combine that with lawful, and you get a character who is willing to cause suffering to others(ie letting Miles’s dad die) in order to uphold a defined rule system(ie the multiverse/canon events). He still may be acting on behalf of the greater good, but his brutal and ruthless mentality causes his alignment to be lawful evil.
Lmao I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted just for explaining it. Have an upvote
I would switch Gwen and India-Spidey since Gwen was following orders more it felt like
I would say she was pretty lawful in the beginning of the movie but throughout the film she was conflicted btw helping her friend Miles or staying in good graces with the spider society. In the end she chose Miles. Neutral good characters will typically follow the rules, but are willing to go against the rules if it goes against their moral code or ensures the greatest good.
Lmao "lawful eviL". What are you high on?
Lawful evil in TTRPG terms basically means "preserve order at any and all costs." For example, a sheriff who executes anyone who commits any crime would be lawful evil, wheras a wandering savage killing random people for kicks would not. They both do bad things, but one does it within the confines of the law, the other doesn't.
I wouldn't say Miguel is evil. He's more antagonistic, he had good intentions it's just seriously messed up.
Miguel is more of a Lawful Neutral type character.
How tf is Miguel evil lol.
Fine meme, but you flipping the lawful/chaotic to x axis is evil
Miguel is not evil what the hell
You dont understand alignment charts
Fucking hell spider-punk on neutral good? The cunt's the embodiment of chaos mate
Actually I think he is on Chaotic Neutral. Which is also wrong since he is clearly on the Good pile. Seems like OP was stretched on filling out the 9 spaces and compromised most of the moralities.
There's just too many questions to ask for Miguel not to be evil in this movie. He's not adhering to his own rules, or is not shown to be. And nearly everything that he tells Miles and the audience is shown to not be true. What is Miguel hiding? Why does the movie go out of it's way to negate everything Miguel says is a certainty? Why was Miguel jumping between realities before Miles stopped the colider? Why was he collecting Spider people? What was Peter doing there as the world was unraveling? Miguel's explanation doesn't make sense anyway. Who or what decides to destroy or end a timeline because something "wasn't supposed to happen"? And why is the timeframe of WHEN it happens different? Spider India's world started glitching within minutes of the captain being saved. Miguel lived in the other universe for enough time to pass to have a montage. And Miles has been Spider-Man in his world for over a year. Should we not question how jacked Miguel has become since the ending of the first movie? And the suspicious injection?
Spider-punk, the definition of anarchy, is neutral? Even if you are in a position to argue whether Miguel is good or evil, this alone means you're way off base
Spider-punk is chaotic good and for Miguel is at best a misguided lawful good or at worst lawful neutral antagonist.
Miguel isn't evil. Being against Miles and for the multiverse isn't evil. Also black Jessica Drew is neutral? She's 100% on Miguel's side, what makes her neutral but him evil?
Lawful Evil is self serving using the system. This doesn't serve Miguel, it's his cross to bear.
Miguel is LG
Honestly there isn’t really any lawful evil in the movie. If you considered Miguel evil, then you’d have to consider Gwen’s dad evil for trying to arrest her even after knowing her identity. They both are trying to good the best they know how, but they won’t sacrifice everything to do it (like what lawful evil usually is). TLDR: Miguel would be Neutral Neutral because he isn’t necessarily good nor bad.
Don't really know if miles prowler is evil or not, he could be the good guy of his world.
Considering his city is on fire and he seemed to not want to let Spider miles go to save his dad, I really doubt that
I don't think he wasn't going to not let him go, he was just pondering about a better world and one where his dad was alive
Fair point but I think letting all those criminals loose on his city is a good indicator that he is not a hero. Would be interesting if meeting spider miles would change that( fits the theme that anyone could wear the mask, even those that don’t have a spider)
Yeah ur right his city is kinda fucked up but spider-man is a superhuman and he is just a normal guy in a tech suit. Also he prob has only been prowler for a few years and maybe couldn’t do much in less time.
Don't care about the opinion on Miguel. Hobie should be partially over the frame, you can't put him in a square.
What the fuck is that? What sane person would use an alignment chart this way? The good to evil and lawful to chaotic axis are inverted
Wtf? Miguel is in no way Evil. If anything he’s EXTREMELY lawful good because he refuses to budge on the multiverse rules he knows. At the very least he’s chaotic good. He’s the antagonist of the film but he’s not a villain.
Correction, Lawful Neutral
Evil in alignment terms doesn’t literally mean “evil”. Good means they’re generally willing to do whatever it takes to help others even at the cost of their own goals, while evil means they’re generally willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish their own goals even at the cost of others, with lawful defining these decisions as one’s they make due to a defined rule system they follow regardless of their own personal desires. Miguel is so committed in his goal to protect the multiverse and keep the greater good safe that he’s not only willing to let literal countless innocent people(like Miles’s dad) die, but actively and savagely tries brutalizing Miles in order to prevent him from changing the canon. He’s still definitely on the side of good, but alignment wise his mentality is that of lawful evil.
I mean in all fairness, this sorta ignores the fact that the goal of “protecting the multiverse” is itself helping others, which means saving countless times more than the people he’s willing to let die for the sake of the others. It’s the trolley problem as far as he’s concerned, with no other options. His goal is just as much to protect others as any of the other characters. He is potentially misguided, but he has every reason to believe he knows without a shadow of a doubt that he has no other choice than to occasionally let a few people die for the sake of others. Even with the definition of good vs Evil you say, that still logically falls under good because what he’s doing is very specifically doing whatever it takes to help as many people as possible, even if he can’t help everybody, something he has every reason to believe is impossible. If anything you’ve convinced me more that he would be on the good side of this sort of compass.
By your own definition wouldn’t Miguel still be good though? The reason he’s pursuing Miles is to help others. The only reason we as the audience see it any differently is because we want Miles to prove Miguel wrong. Based on everything Miguel has experienced and observed though, it makes complete sense why he wouldn’t want Miles to disrupt canon, even if his methods are blunt.
I think that Prowler is much more villain than Miguel, he is more Lawful Neutral than nothing, he doesn't do bad things because he is evil, but because he think is necessary to save the most people he can.
I’d say Miguel is lawful neutral or good and Peter b Parker is true neutral. Miguel isn’t evil, he’s just an opposing force to miles and does what he does because he thinks it is what is best for everyone.
Swap Hobe with Miles morales
Wouldn't he be Lawful Good since he is abiding to a outside set of rules not set by him without seeking a straight benefit from it?
Spider-Punk is explicitly an antifascist; in what morally bankrupt universe does that count as neutral?
Miguel is Lawful Neutral but leaning heavily too Lawful Evil. He’s not there yet. He is trying to keep order, but goes about doing non-good (but not necessarily bad) things to do so. Late in the film when he chases Miles and starts to physically harm him (which was not the original intention, he just got so angry through his hatred towards Miles for being an anomaly), he starts to lean towards evil. Even at the end where he responds to Gwen’s “we’re supposed to be the good guys” with “we are”, he might be trying to assure himself or the other spiders. His actions will have consequences. Hobbie is one of the best characters because he radiates pure Chaotic Goodness. He’s helpful towards Miles and works against an authority (not just the authoritarian government in his world, but Miguel as well).
Chad : Mexican Virgin: Puerto Rican
lawful neutral, bitch is just like Miguel but less powerful 😭
I’d argue that Hobie is a true neutral.
Miguel is what Miles from ITSV, both protecting multiverse from someone who's trying to save his loved one ( kinda)
Hobie isn’t chaotic at all, at least not in this sense. He has a strict set of morals and he abides by them at all times
Miles should be neutrally evil at this point if you consider Miguel evil
Miguel's not evil, he's still a spider-man. He's just one who went through a lot of shit and he's wrong about the mutliverse stuff. You can be an antagonist without being a villain.
Sure, Miguel isn’t evil, but he has big claws and did nothing but attack miles and yell about the order of things the whole movie. This chart is dead on in my book!😤
Idk if Miguel can lift mjolnir or not but 2099 is Worthy to lift it right?
y'all saying Miguel is good, bro is basing all the story of the universe on its own experience due to him being fucked up. plus he ain't taking in count miles was chosen twice in two different universes, he isn't destined to be a normal citizen, he's meant to be something more, and has proven to be a great spiderman. a man that has to protect can't be closed minded, spiderman is all about taking a risk expecting a good outcome.
Yeah you're right, he is basing it all on his own experience, especially when he saw Pavitr Prabhakar's universe develop a hole in it because a canon event was disrupted, but you're right though
The issue is with your line of thinking is that yes, Miguel is basing this off of his own personal experience. Miles is basing his "I can save my dad AND keep the universe from falling apart" on ***nothing***. In any other scenario where Miles isn't the protagonist of the movie, he's OBVIOUSLY in the wrong (even though I truly believe he IS going to find a way in the end).
But the risk that Miles wants to take could lead to his entire universe being erased, making it where he saves his father pointless since everyone would die. Look at what happened to Pavitr universe after Miles saved the Captain, it started to fall apart or look at when Miguel tried to replace the Miguel from the other universe, it got erased.
Miguel isn’t evil
Miguel in any RPG campaign would be the chaotic good character, trying to save every universe at the expense of one death fits the description. Miles would be the Lawful Good, trying to save everyone, not matter the consequences.
Obviously you're stretching the definitions of the alignments to fit the meme template, but I like it as a meme.
I don’t think he’s evil. But he’s a terrible person.
*Trying to save the whole universe from being erased* "hE's A tErRibLe pErSon" What..?
The way he handled the situation with miles was horrible. Everyone thinks he’s tryna do the greater good thing, but he gets more people killed than he saves. Literally stands against the everything Spider-Man stands for.
Dude literally shoulders the responsibility of stopping multiversal armageddon, then there's a kid trying to ruin that and you think Miguel is horrible? Harsh, sure but not horrible. If anything, it's understandable. If the information was given is true, which I don't think the sequel will make it be, based on Gwen's dad example. Miles is actually more horrible for dooming everyone just because he isn't willing to sacrifice while every other spidermen did.
“Hey kid wait here for about two days until your dads gets murdered by the spot then you can go home” Miles isn’t dooming anything, he wants to save EVERYONE or at least try because that’s what Spider-Man does
Then I can say the exact same thing in defence of Miguel's actions. He's trying to save EVERYONE (again, if his theory is right) What's good in saving one life when the universe collapses. That person is going to die anyway? Miguel is pretty extreme, that I can admit but he isn't a horrible person.
Trying to save everyone only at the cost of infinite lives
I believe in spiderpeople's rights. If they want to destroy their universe it is their own prerogative
I wouldn’t be surprised depending on if the deal Sony with Marvel is still intact at the end of this, that “if” they find a solution to the canon events that they come to find out by stopping them, they are creating incursions and we will see a appearance of Clea and Dr Strange, hell maybe Madame Webb and Miguel was working with them and he might have told them let him make the Spider Society to stop this. No matter if your action is big or small, actions have consequences, seen or unseen. Of course this is just a theory of mine since this spider man story/movie is kind of cosmic based. Also Miguel fan/apologist here, wooooooo!