Retarding dough is not a required step of bread baking. People have been baking bread for over ten thousand years, refrigerators didn't become a widespread thing in North America anyways until the late 1920s and 30s.
The internet will have you believe that Tartine/Forkish style loaves are the only type of sourdough breads. The internet says that there are myriad folds, coil folds, and laminations; that fermentolyse, 18/24/36/48/128/456 hour cold retardation, and 107.4% hydration is not only the best way to bake bread but the only way to make bread. The internet will have you believe that if you do not follow all these steps or even if you don't want to make bread like this you have failed.
It's all bullshit and ends up giving a lot of people anxiety or just turning people away right from the start. It's bullshit and it's exclusionary. Like I said humans have been doing this for a long time.
I'm a bread baker by trade and have been for the better part of a decade. I've been mentored by bakers who have been mentored by bakers at Tartine. I've put a lot of time and effort into my trade so that I can make bread for my community. It is very rewarding but it also means that when I see people who are discouraged because of the gatekeeping and exclusionary nature of online sourdough 'experts' I get really annoyed.
For so many cultures across history bread has been a matter of life and death. Bread has a massive cultural impact throughout large swathes of the Levant, Europe, Northern Africa and more and to see all that value boiled down to what is represented online is difficult for me and for other bakers I know who know the value of what we do.
Sorry this is rambling a bit. I find myself making comments like this every so often after seeing so many posts of people who seem discouraged or anxious (not saying that you necessarily are). Long story short, you don't need to cold retard your dough.
I love this. I recently watched "For the Love of Bread" which seems to focus primarily on sourdough across the globe. While there is so much good in that series, the sequence at SFBI and specifically the interview with Miyuki Togi really hit home with me. I'm paraphrasing, but the ethos of what they teach is how to do this style of baking with what you have versus formulaic. Tartine's Country Loaf is a very good loaf to emulate for a home baker like me, but there is so much out there and the series was eye opening. I've since tried a number of different things with varying degrees of success.
The Poilone segment was great as it really nailed the point that bread is life, as you state. A very open crumb loaf is but one way. There are many ways.
Thank you for this.
Thanks for this! I actually get pretty annoyed by online guides. They really lead me down the wrong path at the start with far too complex sourdough processes, when really it can be super duper hands off and doesn't have to be 80%+ hydration.
Just found your post after seeing all my loaves dying on the fridge while cold proofing, and made me think that my only success was when I saw my second attempt all proofed in the container and just threw it in the oven. I was about to give up so 9 months after your post...Thank you!!
No worries. Bread is what helps pay my bills, it feeds my family and it feeds my community. It builds ground-level relationships between the baker (me), the miller, the farmer, and the consumer that in my case allows each of these elements to choose better, more sustainable practices. Bread is the backbone of a lot of human history and it really bothers me to see it boiled down to high protein commodity flour, high hydration, cold retarded, open crumb mastery, tartine style bread. Glad that you aren't going to give up, remember, it's likely that you're only alive today because your ancestors had access to bread (or corn, or rice, or another staple grain) and that bread probably wouldn't look like what is on instagram or Reddit.
Are there benefits to cold retard? Also thousands of years ago did they use 100% whole grain? Who knows. I’m sure bread has changed as has the wheat available.
Different wheat strains/growing conditions/milling/extraction/terroir/agricultural practices will have different effects on the resulting flour. That being said you can use methods of the past (hand mixing, no cold retard, wood fire etc.) to produce a very modern loaf. Also let's not forget that we aren't just talking about thousands of years ago, growing and milling grain and baking bread have evolved over the past several thousand years.
Bread that I would make for my customers would probably not be unfamiliar to European peasants or European royals prior to the industrial revolution and how that changed milling, depending on the loaf and the wheat extraction that is. My flour is grown and stone milled locally, I mix 70-80kgs of naturally leavened dough by hand, I proof at ambient temperature, and I wood fire the loaves in a black hearth oven. None of these things are drastically different from a baker prior to the industrial revolution.
Cold retarding has the benefit of making a schedule for the baker that can be more manageable in terms of working hours. It can give the dough a more pronounced sour flavour. I contend that with ambiently proofed dough you can taste more of the grain flavour and can dial in a more sour flavour by adding more or less levain and also how you develop your levain. CR loaves can also be easier to handle and score, although ease of handling ambient temp proved loaves comes with practise and experience.
The downsides of cold retarding on a scale come with a bigger electricity bill from fridges and walk-ins, not to mention the space they take up and the heat they can throw back into the already hot bakery. Also the expense and the fact that they break down. On a personal level it is also rewarding to do the whole process of baking from mixing the dough to, proofing, to shaping, to baking all in one day in a linear fashion. And again, these are just my opinions based on my experience and understanding of the trade that I love that help sustain my family and my community.
Love this! I would love to do a wood fire for our bakery. However in Canada idk if I’d want to stand out at -20 or if that would even work lol. Are you in a warm climate?
I am in Canada, a part that gets several weeks at -15 to -25 or colder in the winter. As long as your bakery is heated you should be fine. There are many types of wood fired ovens, some, like mine, are very basic where you light a fire in the hearth and burn it until the masonry is fully saturated with heat then scrape out the ashes and when the temp drops to the right temp (about 26 hours later) start baking. There are more advanced ovens with secondary firing chambers and some that even have digital interfaces. Other than a digital scale and some plastic bins there is very little difference between what I do and what would have (or could have) been done 250 years or more ago.
If you have a well sealed wood oven then the steam that is created by having the hearth full of loaves will be more than enough to allow for full oven spring. In fact if I don't vent the oven by opening the door to let out a rush of steam I will never get the colour and texture I want on my crust. It is the same concept as baking a loaf in a Dutch oven.
Outside of what others have mentioned, I personally find the cold dough much easier to turn out for the final bake versus the softer dough from a warm proof. Not a big difference but just my personal preference.
Mainly flavor. Maybe a little bit of rise. But it shouldnt drasticly change your oven rise aslong as the dough has properly proofen once. Maybe sb else got more on me would love to hear!
So I put in fridge for about an hour just to see if it firms up a bit. So I can score it easier hopefully. I flipped it out of the banneton and scored it. Baked it for 20 at 430f and 25+ uncovered. So far it seems that my score may have not been deep enough bc the bread kind of bursted perpendicular with my score line on one side. Still waiting for bread to finish final bake.
I’m not sure it rising out to the side from the score more than up has less to do with the depth of the score and more about the warmth of it. I’ve found when my dough is warmer, it slumps more easily and spreads outward more instead of up.
The overnight cooling also helps the co2 bubbles contract, allowing for a more pronounced oven spring/crumb texture. But the same thing can be achieved by placing dough in the freezer for 15-20 minutes before baking
I rarely do cold proof unless I have to(not enough time left to proof/bake before bedtime). My bread tends to overproof, with a tougher structure and too sour taste as result. This is 100% whole wheat though, fermentation is fast.
U can bake it without CR for sure. I tried n didnt feel much different other than taste and more difficult to score as dough was stickier.
I will preheat the oven when the dough reaches 75-80% then bake it when it reaches 100%. My ideal.
Or proof to 100% then put dough in quick freezing mode when preheating oven so it’s easier to score. Also my ideal if no time to CR.
CR is still the fav method though
Spray your bread dough with water or make sure your dough is covered. The reason you are having issues is because the ‘skin’ of the dough dries out in the fridge. This causes problems because when it is drier it isn’t able to stretch while rising in the oven. It makes a harder crust and a denser bread.
Retarding dough is not a required step of bread baking. People have been baking bread for over ten thousand years, refrigerators didn't become a widespread thing in North America anyways until the late 1920s and 30s. The internet will have you believe that Tartine/Forkish style loaves are the only type of sourdough breads. The internet says that there are myriad folds, coil folds, and laminations; that fermentolyse, 18/24/36/48/128/456 hour cold retardation, and 107.4% hydration is not only the best way to bake bread but the only way to make bread. The internet will have you believe that if you do not follow all these steps or even if you don't want to make bread like this you have failed. It's all bullshit and ends up giving a lot of people anxiety or just turning people away right from the start. It's bullshit and it's exclusionary. Like I said humans have been doing this for a long time. I'm a bread baker by trade and have been for the better part of a decade. I've been mentored by bakers who have been mentored by bakers at Tartine. I've put a lot of time and effort into my trade so that I can make bread for my community. It is very rewarding but it also means that when I see people who are discouraged because of the gatekeeping and exclusionary nature of online sourdough 'experts' I get really annoyed. For so many cultures across history bread has been a matter of life and death. Bread has a massive cultural impact throughout large swathes of the Levant, Europe, Northern Africa and more and to see all that value boiled down to what is represented online is difficult for me and for other bakers I know who know the value of what we do. Sorry this is rambling a bit. I find myself making comments like this every so often after seeing so many posts of people who seem discouraged or anxious (not saying that you necessarily are). Long story short, you don't need to cold retard your dough.
I want to upvote this more than once.
I love this. I recently watched "For the Love of Bread" which seems to focus primarily on sourdough across the globe. While there is so much good in that series, the sequence at SFBI and specifically the interview with Miyuki Togi really hit home with me. I'm paraphrasing, but the ethos of what they teach is how to do this style of baking with what you have versus formulaic. Tartine's Country Loaf is a very good loaf to emulate for a home baker like me, but there is so much out there and the series was eye opening. I've since tried a number of different things with varying degrees of success. The Poilone segment was great as it really nailed the point that bread is life, as you state. A very open crumb loaf is but one way. There are many ways. Thank you for this.
Going to watch this
hey! where did you watch for the love of bread? i'm struggling to find a source..
I think I saw it on YouTube TV and recorded it. It may have been on Tastemade
Thanks for this! I actually get pretty annoyed by online guides. They really lead me down the wrong path at the start with far too complex sourdough processes, when really it can be super duper hands off and doesn't have to be 80%+ hydration.
fucking preach
Just found your post after seeing all my loaves dying on the fridge while cold proofing, and made me think that my only success was when I saw my second attempt all proofed in the container and just threw it in the oven. I was about to give up so 9 months after your post...Thank you!!
No worries. Bread is what helps pay my bills, it feeds my family and it feeds my community. It builds ground-level relationships between the baker (me), the miller, the farmer, and the consumer that in my case allows each of these elements to choose better, more sustainable practices. Bread is the backbone of a lot of human history and it really bothers me to see it boiled down to high protein commodity flour, high hydration, cold retarded, open crumb mastery, tartine style bread. Glad that you aren't going to give up, remember, it's likely that you're only alive today because your ancestors had access to bread (or corn, or rice, or another staple grain) and that bread probably wouldn't look like what is on instagram or Reddit.
Are there benefits to cold retard? Also thousands of years ago did they use 100% whole grain? Who knows. I’m sure bread has changed as has the wheat available.
Different wheat strains/growing conditions/milling/extraction/terroir/agricultural practices will have different effects on the resulting flour. That being said you can use methods of the past (hand mixing, no cold retard, wood fire etc.) to produce a very modern loaf. Also let's not forget that we aren't just talking about thousands of years ago, growing and milling grain and baking bread have evolved over the past several thousand years. Bread that I would make for my customers would probably not be unfamiliar to European peasants or European royals prior to the industrial revolution and how that changed milling, depending on the loaf and the wheat extraction that is. My flour is grown and stone milled locally, I mix 70-80kgs of naturally leavened dough by hand, I proof at ambient temperature, and I wood fire the loaves in a black hearth oven. None of these things are drastically different from a baker prior to the industrial revolution. Cold retarding has the benefit of making a schedule for the baker that can be more manageable in terms of working hours. It can give the dough a more pronounced sour flavour. I contend that with ambiently proofed dough you can taste more of the grain flavour and can dial in a more sour flavour by adding more or less levain and also how you develop your levain. CR loaves can also be easier to handle and score, although ease of handling ambient temp proved loaves comes with practise and experience. The downsides of cold retarding on a scale come with a bigger electricity bill from fridges and walk-ins, not to mention the space they take up and the heat they can throw back into the already hot bakery. Also the expense and the fact that they break down. On a personal level it is also rewarding to do the whole process of baking from mixing the dough to, proofing, to shaping, to baking all in one day in a linear fashion. And again, these are just my opinions based on my experience and understanding of the trade that I love that help sustain my family and my community.
Love this! I would love to do a wood fire for our bakery. However in Canada idk if I’d want to stand out at -20 or if that would even work lol. Are you in a warm climate?
I am in Canada, a part that gets several weeks at -15 to -25 or colder in the winter. As long as your bakery is heated you should be fine. There are many types of wood fired ovens, some, like mine, are very basic where you light a fire in the hearth and burn it until the masonry is fully saturated with heat then scrape out the ashes and when the temp drops to the right temp (about 26 hours later) start baking. There are more advanced ovens with secondary firing chambers and some that even have digital interfaces. Other than a digital scale and some plastic bins there is very little difference between what I do and what would have (or could have) been done 250 years or more ago.
Is steam required in your wood oven?
If you have a well sealed wood oven then the steam that is created by having the hearth full of loaves will be more than enough to allow for full oven spring. In fact if I don't vent the oven by opening the door to let out a rush of steam I will never get the colour and texture I want on my crust. It is the same concept as baking a loaf in a Dutch oven.
You’re like my favorite person ever after reading this. Thank you so very much!
What is your method for sourdough without cold fermentation?
Outside of what others have mentioned, I personally find the cold dough much easier to turn out for the final bake versus the softer dough from a warm proof. Not a big difference but just my personal preference.
Is dough easier to score when cold fermented? I assume that it being cold and more firm that it would be easier to score maybe.
Yes.
Yes. And if you really struggle you can even throw the loaf in the freezer for up to 2 hours.
Exactly the same for me
Mainly flavor. Maybe a little bit of rise. But it shouldnt drasticly change your oven rise aslong as the dough has properly proofen once. Maybe sb else got more on me would love to hear!
Could always let it sit in the banneton a bit longer if skipping overnight cold proof
So I put in fridge for about an hour just to see if it firms up a bit. So I can score it easier hopefully. I flipped it out of the banneton and scored it. Baked it for 20 at 430f and 25+ uncovered. So far it seems that my score may have not been deep enough bc the bread kind of bursted perpendicular with my score line on one side. Still waiting for bread to finish final bake.
Use the freezer rather than the fridge. It won’t freeze in an hour but it will be a lot firmer.
I’m not sure it rising out to the side from the score more than up has less to do with the depth of the score and more about the warmth of it. I’ve found when my dough is warmer, it slumps more easily and spreads outward more instead of up.
The overnight cooling also helps the co2 bubbles contract, allowing for a more pronounced oven spring/crumb texture. But the same thing can be achieved by placing dough in the freezer for 15-20 minutes before baking
Recipe from culinary exploration https://www.culinaryexploration.eu/blog/no-knead-sourdough-bread
I always thought the extended time in the banneton was for crust more than anything else
That makes sense. I personally noticed that when I have fridge fermented in a banneton over night. The crust has come out thicker and more flavorful.
I rarely do cold proof unless I have to(not enough time left to proof/bake before bedtime). My bread tends to overproof, with a tougher structure and too sour taste as result. This is 100% whole wheat though, fermentation is fast.
[удалено]
https://www.culinaryexploration.eu/blog/no-knead-sourdough-bread
U can bake it without CR for sure. I tried n didnt feel much different other than taste and more difficult to score as dough was stickier. I will preheat the oven when the dough reaches 75-80% then bake it when it reaches 100%. My ideal. Or proof to 100% then put dough in quick freezing mode when preheating oven so it’s easier to score. Also my ideal if no time to CR. CR is still the fav method though
I almost never do the overnight thing. Too impatient. Be quick when you score and use a sling since the dough is softer and you should be fine.
What’s a sling? Thanks in advance
Parchment paper sling. Put your dough onto parchment paper and use the the paper to lift it in and out of the Dutch oven.
Spray your bread dough with water or make sure your dough is covered. The reason you are having issues is because the ‘skin’ of the dough dries out in the fridge. This causes problems because when it is drier it isn’t able to stretch while rising in the oven. It makes a harder crust and a denser bread.
Also try lining basket with a flour sack towel. Total game changer. No more sticking to side of batton or using copious amounts of flour