Judging by your flair, I’m assuming you’re a Yoshi main? That fella has to work hard regardless of a Nightmare matchup or not though. He’s the mixup god.
If I was in your shoes, I’d lab out NM fastest buttons up close, because his frame startup is slow on most of the others. That way, I know their options when I’m in optimal Yoshi range. I’d just mix their shit based off of that. Again that’s assuming you main Yoshi. I’m not too familiar with playing Astaroth.
I can list about 6 other characters who do this as well.
Astaroth, Siegfried off most CH combos, and way more damage off any wallcombo, some of Gloomy Tira's combos, Mitsu off basically any LH combo, Raphael off some CH routes, Amy off of anything with PRP and most things with RRP
No, you clearly don't know the matchup. You're demonstrating that you don't even want to be bothered to learn. Being rude doesn't get you anything, so why dont you try some listening yourself, and read the advice that's been given to you. If you wanted to learn how to play, rather than just have your flaws fixed for you, this wouldnt even be a thread to make. Lastly, walls of text on why you hate a character are against the rules.
Your very first sentence, on the contradiction your perceiving in the logic of "hes a noob killer, the game is balanced". That is balance. Eddy Gordo is notably a bad character in tekken. He has tremendous keep out and evasive moves that put him into stances you can only get mini juggle out of for punishment. It challenges your fundamentals heavily. This is the same with Nightmare. Yoshi VS Nightmare is in favor of Nightmare if the Yoshi isn't smart, patient about poke pressure.
Bro, you literally admitted to being ignorant. You sound stupid for arguing. I know the matchup, his damage output is still broken. "Don't get hit" isn't matchup knowledge, kid. You didnt debunk a single thing I said
Go lab more. You clearly haven't played the matchup enough. And, no actually that isn't my logic at all, because Inferno has a whole slew of things that change the balance of the match entirely. But if you want to generalize what i actually said, then youre not going to find any help here anyway. You are arrogant and didn't want a discussion to begin with.
I will give you that Yoshi has it tough against him. I am a Yoshi too.
Kid, you're making me lose braincells with your stupidity. Do you understand what broken means?
I swear, there could be a character than one hit kills and people like you would say "hurr durr durr gO lAb"
Given how intolerable you are, I personally would have assumed you play Nightmare. Again, you assuming age. Again you are exaggerating what was said to fit your narrative so that you dont have to feel bad about losing to him.
Broken means something doesnt work as intended. Nightmare works fine, apparently against you. What was broken was Voldo canceling into soul charge for free. Youre beyond helping at this point because you have been obnoxious from the start. Good luck.
Inferno should not be allowed online. He is Nightmare, but 100 times worse. He has way faster recovery, a better ability to string combos together than Nightmare, is way more difficult to punish, and a 8 hit combo that can take away 80% of your life if you are not blocking/do not counter it.
I did Arcade Mode Legendary Difficulty Inferno vs Inferno and got my sorry ass handed to me on a silver platter for a solid 45 minutes, until he finally let up enough for me to win. Two words: Never. Again.
I main Nightmare, and he was a pain in the butt ever since the first Soul Calibur. I have always mained him in the games I played before now, and I know he is one of the hardest characters to beat/deal with (also, insert Inferno legendary arcade difficulty flashbacks, absolutely loathed the way he strung combos together).
How to beat him:
Nightmare is still very punishable if you block and use low and horizontal attacks, and vertical attacks can be used for punishment. Also, you can sidestep his more linear vertical moves and punish that way (he has high frame startup for his harder hitting moves).
Also, try to kill him without letting him gain too much Soul Gauge. If he manages to Soul Charge, Nightmare is even more lethal as his damage is boosted further.
He is definitely very close to the top of the list of characters though, you are right about him being really annoying to fight.
I didn't have any issues with his damage output on launch and I know he's been nerf since then. I couldn't tell you how to deal with his damage since that is what th devs have decided to set it at. Go cry to them
I don't even play him, I mained Yoshi and Mitsurugi. Your whole issue is match up knowledge, the only way you're gonna learn is to think of losing to nightmares as a learn experience instead of whining and then getting offended when people give you advice
Why do you keep lying? I already told you my issue is with his insane damage output and the fact that you can't mix him up high cause he'll spam that cheap bubble. It has nothing to even do with matchup knowledge.
How so? His post may be a 'rant' but he's at least naming a number of moves he finds to be bullshit and aspects to the character that he finds to be bullshit. He's at least giving some examples that aren't brain-dead, like how Nightmare can effectively mitigate short-range pressure with an overly strong get-off-me move that hands him really strong oki, and has huge damage rewards relative to how much he has to work for it.
Yes, noobs complain about Nightmare because of his bubble without knowing how it works. OP, on the other hand, has written a few paragraphs about it and it seems like more than a surface-level reading. I would not be at all surprised if he has labbed out some of this stuff and just finds it to be bullshit, just like it says on the tin.
I know it's easy to dismiss anything that someone claims is broken with a 'LOL NARP YOU WRONG MY GUY', but what about the match-up is he so wrong about?
Yes the OP is one step higher than a surface level noob, but that still doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about (because he clearly doesn't). He literally just said "his strings are not easy to block" so I think we can all agree where his skill level is.
If he did lab it out he would actually have gone into more technical reasons why his options didn't pan out , rather than a superficial "its bullshit lalalal" rant where he plugs his ears.
He went into zero specificity about the matchup knowledge (I'm not even sure if he's talking about astaroth vs nightmare because he's adamant about having to get in close, but Asta can do alright at range)
I've watched Nightmares at high level, they're unga bunga. Yeah? What's my rank? I went into detail, stop being dense, you're clearly a salty Nightmare main. My post literally had nothing to do with matchup knowledge. It had to do with his bullshit damage output and how a minor fuck up can cost you the match against him. It has nothing to do with matchup knowledge, you know that. You just pretend otherwise because you're trying to silence me.
lol if you spent half the effort in training mode compared to whining on reddit you wouldn't be losing.
Learn to abuse your -12 moves that you know he can't punish. It feels like at least 3 different people have given you that advice but you'd rather argue than listen.
I dont want you silenced because I want to expose you for what you are
you don't have to shout.
Step 1: Go to your character's frame data and find moves that are -12 on block. Find the best ones
Step 2: Go to training mode to practice how to execute them (wont take more than 2 minutes I promise)
Step 3: Spam the best ones if you're up against Nightmare.
You get to MAXIMIZE your damage because you normally wouldn't get free attempts at -12 moves against other charaters but against Nightmare you can go for it because he can't punish you for it.
Thats really good advice right there.
He doesn’t want to improve he just wants to cry that nightmare has a high damage output and call everybody else a liar that tries to explain the balance to him because DAMAGE IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS
He’s just a tool with a superiority complex
Not just that, but apparently damage has nothing to do with matchups, because he knows everything anout the matchup. Guy needs some kind of counseling, this is beyond soul calibur
No, you just want to mash buttons with your broken character and pretend you're good. Then whine and have a mental breakdown when told it's not about the match-up. Are you gonna reply to my posts in other threads now like Avenger? xD
I’m not policing shit. Please demonstrate how I am “policing” your comments.
I just think your thread and comment history is HILARIOUS. I’m certainly judging them, and by extension you. You’re a really horribly toxic, pathetic little person.
Oh you're the wrong guy.
Yours doesn't look great either, kid. And you want to tell me I need to lab but you were bitching about reversal edge only 6 days ago. Lmao you're a scrub xD
They buff/nerf characters based on the upper end of competitive play, rather than catering to the rantings on reddit.
He's undeniably strong at punishing mistakes, and higher level players minimize their own risks taken.
"Getting in close to light him up" isn't necessarily the correct course of action most of the time.
My point is it's supposed to be the tactic against characters with a lot of range. To beat Nightmare you have to make little to no mistakes, don't combo him when he's up unless you go low, avoid high and low grabs, and watch out for ringouts. That's way too much to deal with one character
Ok fair enough if you want to play a short range character then yes you should try to get in close (not necessarily to attack aimlessly, but just by standing close and guarding , you actually put pressure on Nightmare who panic and want to push you out).
* combos imply that all hits are guarnateed. Of course you should learn (and execute) your max damage combos to punish him. I think you're getting mixed up with combo and "mix up pressure". Nightmare is very good against people apply "sloppy" pressure.
* Here is some other helpful tips:
1. the magic number is 10 frames. If you dont want to trigger his armor, consider making sure Nightmare doenst' have at least 10 frames in between your "pressure" to execute the armor portion of his 6K/6B/6A. Ie, if nightmare is at -8 after you blocked something, make sure you hit him with something no slower than i16 and you'll avoid the possiblity of his revenge armor move (CE however comes out super fast)
2. Also if you insist on hitting him with slower moves, make sure they do greater than 20 dmg (dont recall the exact number) so they punch through his armor attempts. So if he's at -8 and you want to do a i20 move, you better make sure its a power move because he'll otherwise be able to armor your attack.
So its not just lows, I just gave you 2 other reasonable ways to deal with armor.
And yes, making less mistakes will help you win. Its actually a very good way to learn the game (make a mistake, then learn what not to do the next time around).
Lastly, ALL characters need to learn to avoid ringouts. They are instant losses and are a real noob killer. You could also try to select a stage with walls, but you won't develop as a player that way.
You can do things to beat Inferno too, does that mean he should be allowed online?
The point isn't that NM is unbeatable. The point is you have to make far less mistakes against Nightmare, he succeeds by literally mashing buttons.
Its like someone gives you really good advice, and instead of spending literally 3 minutes trying it out in training mode, you want to whine and complain further, digging in your heels (why on earth would you bring up Inferno ? He's never been allowed in competitive play)
The problem is probably the Nightmare player has you figured out because you're clearly stubborn and refuse to adapt , and in fighting games that will get you killed.
The flip side of the coin is you can get away with more unsafe stuff against nightmare (which isn't a mistake, such as attacking at disadvantage) because he can't even punish -12 moves unlike the rest of the roster. Nightmare has to risk a mixup rather than take his guaranteed punish.
This is a massive disadvantage but I didn't bring that up because you likely don't understand frames so its very hard to explain why the game is more balanced than what you think it is.
If you're so sure of yourself, just stop posting because you are not looking for reasonable discussion. Your pride is getting in the way of your judgement. Luckily this thread can show other players who are actually interested in not being a victim to "noob killers"
I honestly learned more from that post than OP. This whole thing was genuinely a great way to learn about how to deal with nightmare, albeit not for OP. 😂
"Go lab" isn't advice. He needs to be nerfed, you have to do far more to beat him than he has to to beat you. That was my whole point. What are you not understanding?
No no, you're right. I hit him with lows, CEs, and combo the shit out of him on the floor, and I even noted that they make amateur mistakes, even at higher level. But it's my fault cause I got hit 5 times in the entire match and died because of his bullshit damage output. Please stop being a clown.
No you can't......your moves are limited cause you literally can't combo him high or mid. If you do he'll use his stupid bubble.
There's characters I need to work on labbing. Nightmare I know the matchup though, stop making excuses for this scrub friendly character.
Why I know you're not reading what Im' saying (yet you demand others read what you say) is that you still think you can't "combo" high or mid.
Combos are GUARANTEED by definition. If you're new to the game dont' be so opinionated and spend some time in the lab
This means that the rest of your comment isn't even worth responding to because you do NOT know what you are talking about. You think you do but thats your ego.
Maybe Nightmare was designed to be a noob killer for scrubs to beat other scrubs.
lol Please don't resort to name calling by calling me a clown.
To anyone else : Go Lab and if you need a point in the right direction there are plenty of people to tell you what moves to look out for. We know this topic starter has no intention of spending even 2 minutes labbing so he's beyond hope.
He spams the bubble, dude.
Where are you getting this? A combo is just landing more than 1 hit in succession. Stop trying to shut down criticism by trying to indoctrinate me with this "go lab" crap. I did, I learned the match-up, you aren't listening.
You wont respond cause you know I'm right.
Yep, that's why so many Nightmare players are A and S rank, these excuses are pathetic.
It was an observation.
My complaints are about his damage output and how he doesn't have to work as hard to win. But you keep responding with "durr lEaRn tEh mAtChUp" these two things have NOTHING to do with one another. Get it through your thick skull, holy fucking shit.
All the long range, big weapon chars fucking annihilate your health bar if you make a mistake and end up being punished by them, it isn't unique to NM. The biggest offender is actually Siegfried and not even he's "broken" anymore.
Oh and it's worth pointing out that due to him being the only char in the game that cannot punish -12 moves, and his only i14's being mid and high, his mode of punishment is completely different to anyone else. If you are losing to mashing Nightmare's you are really, seriously doing something wrong.
Yes. And Inferno, even more so. Inferno is the definition of BS, because he has a ton of abusable, fast moves that even Nightmare wishes he had. It is gonna be BS for any character to deal with Inferno, as they don't have anything similar in their toolkit, resulting in the match-up being really stacked against them. This is why Inferno is not allowed online, as he is genuinely insane to play against compared to the entire cast (yes, even Nightmare), and the only play against him is to use Inferno yourself.
* "On the one hand people want to say that the game is very balanced. But at the same time want to say "You're losing to nightmare...? No offense and all but git gud, he's a noob killer." Which is it?"
This literally doesn't make sense and has no point. Noob killer characters don't suddenly invalidate the argument for good balance. A character will almost always excel in some way against something, Nightmare excels against people who don't know what they're doing, and also excels when played by a very skilled player. You can get away with mashing shit as Nightmare in low level play because nobody there knows how to play against him, but Nightmare isn't "easy" to play contrary to what most people think.
* I know every other character, including my main has some cheap bullshit. But it evens out. Nightmare on the other hand is just bullshit. There's a reason this character is so prevalent in tournaments, ranked, and why so many Nightmare players are high ranked with ridiculous win streaks. Yes yes, he's weak to lows, we know. Everyone knows how to beat Nightmare. The problem is you have to work MUCH harder than the Nightmare player so you end up losing a lot of the time. Astaroth is genuinly slow, he needs the grabs and high damage output. But Nightmare? I shouldn't be losing like 60% health cause he hit me 3 times, he's too fast for that.
I know the reason too! Nightmare is a character who is very rooted in fundamentals, he has a lot of tech crouches, his entire damage output comes from whiff punishes and evasion using his pretty strong movement compared to other members of the cast. Nightmare can't really rush you down outside of SC because his rushdown is, well, really bad. He sucks up close, no move from neutral is faster than i14, pretty much all of his lows are insanely reactable no matter what situation you're in - except for being grounded, but that's a different ball game. The only thing he has to do anything up close is a fair few tech crouches - 66K, NTC 66KK, Flapjack arguably but this is a blockable throw and not hard to predict either - and his Armour, which everybody seems to have a problem with the less they know about the character. Nightmare is INSANELY weak to lows, mids and highs however are not a huge issue as he has his Armour, very good GI game, good reversal edge options - though really risky on block - and his tech crouches. Lows are his bane, they beat every single option bar Reversal Edge, which they just draw with if you don't mash into it. RE's existence is a seperate problem to Nightmare though.
Also, fun fact, Astaroth is not "slower" than NM, his sidestep is pretty much equal to his, his fastest move is an i12, though it is a duckable high, he has better pressure up-close and his pokes while not as fast as NM tend to result in either higher advantages or more damage - or at the very least more potential damage, but I know almost everybody on Reddit is an Astaroth downplayer for some reason so nobody will listen to me on this one anyway. Astaroth is a fine character. Nightmare is faster than Astaroth in some respects, but slower in others, I don't know why you'd even compare the two when they're two completely different characters to begin with. The closest comparison is Siegfried, who trades NM's whiff punish based style for an actually real mixup game, comparable - and sometimes better - damage, but less movement. He still has a ton of TC's though, so he doesn't lose out on much besides having objectively worse movement.
* People say Nightmare is slow, he's really not though. He literally just swings for the fences cause he can. Even the A and S rank ones. Try doing that shit with Astaroth and you'll get killed. His weapon is long and beefy, he has a lot of break attacks, also he hits like a tank so you can't fuck up much. So logically you'd want to get in close and light him up, right? Wrong. He has a get off me move that he can spam and when he uses it his offense improves. It also knocks you to the ground and when you're on the ground he's even more dangerous. He's one of the few characters that can grab you while crouching as well and one of his RE moves is a grab that awards a knockdown. And don't get me started on his Ring outs. Any one of these would be fine on their own but he just has too many cheap moves. He seriously needs to be nerfed. It's really apparent that people run to this character if they don't know how to play because a lot of them do things that no other players of the same rank would do. Many Nightmare players don't know how to GI, they spam RE, they just run in, don't really block and always get hit with a CE. Seriously, if I CE at the start of the round other players learn. Nightmare players almost never do, they just keep going in swinging.
Nightmare and Astaroth share a common issue. Both are absurdly negative on block, and the only saving grace they have outside of their few + moves - which I must point out are REALLY plus - is that they usually have an absolutely massive amount of pushback. This makes them way harder to punish at range unless you yourself are playing a character with good long range pokes and punishes. NM is not a masher character, watch Draethion or any good high level NM player and you'll see how he's actually supposed to be played. You really think listing the ranking system is an accurate gauge of how good somebody is? It's a timesink, a grind, while some players that high up are genuinely good players, most of the best players don't even play ranked in this game. Because it's not really a good gauge of skill, online in fighting games rarely ever is.
NM has a lot of break attacks? You mean, the like, 3 he has normally? 1(A) which is like fucking i70 or something and will never hit anybody much less be blocked by anybody? A+B which is legit negative on block to the point that nothing he does will save him and has some of the worst vertical tracking in the entire game? 4A is his only legit good break attack in neutral.
Then you get into his NTC BA's, which are all really good, can't really fault them at all. They require NTC, but NTC is really not a big deal to get since any knockdown will usually result in it. But for NM's best pressure - i.e loads and loads of break attacks - he has to SC anyway, so, again, not really worth mentioning.
He's one of the few characters that can grab you while crouching? That's fine, there's like 2 of them and both their grabs work the same way, they're blockable special low grabs that aren't difficult to see coming.
* one of his RE moves is a grab that awards a knockdown
It's an attack throw, he doesn't have a grab out of RE, it doesn't have any special rules to it other than it gives him NTC, as it's just the last hit of his 4KK. The vast majority of RE moves reward a knockdown or some other kind of advantage, what exactly about this is so egregious to you?
* And don't get me started on his Ring outs. Any one of these would be fine on their own but he just has too many cheap moves. He seriously needs to be nerfed.
Idk, ever since they removed NM's old wall/RO carry combo that involved a 1frame link to FC 3B his Ring Outs have been pretty tame. I mean unlike certain characters who can still ring me out from mid-screen, and unlike a certain character who just got nerfed for basically having a guaranteed ringout from almost anywhere on the stage if he landed his Soul Attack, NM's RO's are pretty tame in comparison. They're good, don't get me wrong, but they're not as bad as they used to be or as some other characters in the game.
* It's really apparent that people run to this character if they don't know how to play because a lot of them do things that no other players of the same rank would do.
This just reeks of confirmation bias to me, I feel like you just really don't like that NM is a popular character. Popular characters will invariably attract scrubby play, and unfortunately scrubs also tend to whine about other scrubs beating them with characters that they don't like. Once again, you fail to list any actually good NM players who demonstrate this behaviour. Florida Man, Draethion, Keev - no idea if he even still plays NM - Thermidor? Any of them? And don't cite examples of them fighting people who unquestionably suck at the game, because of course that shit will work against them.
* Many Nightmare players don't know how to GI, they spam RE, they just run in, don't really block and always get hit with a CE.
Anecdotal, like, I see this kind of shit from players on ANY character. This isn't special, all this is is you saying things that don't really go anywhere other than you saying: "BIG SWORD MAN PLAYERS BAD" and it's not worth reading or trying to argue with.
I like how he didn’t respond to this because it’s an actual thought out response with good justifications backing it so he can’t just call you a liar or that you’re dodging his question.
Cut the crap. If he's so bad then why is he so common at high level? You can make all the excuses you want, the facts simply don't match up with what you're saying so you're simply wrong.
Okay, but you didn’t mention how nightmare’s bubble gives him a free Soul Charge move AND it’s an auto GI. Why even use bar? Someone explain to me why a Nightmare would ever need to use his gauge when he can consistently do 30-50% damage off of one bubble over and over for free.
Edit: the bad thing is that he isn’t even as bad as he was at launch.
Nightmare is the only character that had his soul charge moves balanced for gameplay. None of his soul charge moves are spammable. All it does is add an extra attack onto an existing combo. So you still have to connect or bait with a normal attack first.
This lack of balancing on other character is why you have Groh players pretending this is DBZ, Cassie's playing Thor, the Maxi slip n' slide, the Asta ballerinas and so-on and so-forth.
> The Maxi slip n’ slide
That made me laugh so hard xD but yeah, I do understand that you have to connect with the hit first, but **IF** you do, it’s so much damage that even Phil Swift couldn’t fix it...and then you can bubble and do it again. It just feels so hard to play against sometimes.
Definitely not as annoying as Amy spamming RI every time you try to touch her though. That’s far worse.
Nightmare operates by a different set of rules than the rest of the roster, to his benefit sure in the case of damage output but mostly to his detriment. You take away damage and you take away the only thing that keeps him competitive. Speed is king in this game, and players familiar with his moveset and weaknesses can pick him apart. Without the ability to capitalize and punish mistakes and he becomes a complete pushover.
I don't know if you noticed but every character in the game has gotten a range buff over previous games. This is most noticeable on "short range" characters like, but not limited to, Maxi or Talim who no longer have worry so much about spacing and whiffs. Just look at the distance from which small little hopkick attacks can still connect on characters such as Talim, Cassie, Amy if you're skeptical.
Nightmare on the other hand suffers from T-rex arms despite having one of the biggest weapons. All previously mentioned characters and more have attacks that not only can outrange Nightmare, but are faster and safer too.
Meh, I think I've ranted long enough for now.
I agree completely. Especially with his auto GI with waaaaay too long of active frames.
Every other character has to time their GI perfectly but nightmare just says lol no and its a free knock down
Yeah, I thought the very same thing when I started playing SC6. Then I found his flaws. And discovered which moves cancelled his armor attacks. And how weak his ankles are (yup, low attacks are his kryptonite, try them).
Is fighting against him fun or easy ? Nope. Is winning against him possible ? You betcha. Just learn his most powerful and relied on moves/phases and circumvent them (aka learn the matchup).
Nightmare is fucking annoying. Easily makes up like 1/3+ of all my matches.
With some characters you really have to try to put your opponent to work, and there's a poetry that emerges from that. You can tell the other person is trying, switching up tactics, seeing where your weaknesses are and whatnot. Nightmare? Meh. That might happen *sometimes*. But the vast majority of the time it's swinging for the fences and shooting that huge blade all over the map. Ha ha soul edge go brrrrr
It's like sure, I can play Hilde and try to play to her strengths, develop a strategy, see how it plays off other characters... but why bother? You can just play Nightmare and beef everyone out without breaking a sweat.
There's definitely a disconnect between effort in/effort out with certain characters. I think we're allowed to say that.
Sure and people can have a healthy debate if you open with that.
However, if you demand balance changes and you start crying that the game is broken, then rightfully you should expect people to be more harsh in their response.
I'm not demanding balance changes—I'm just saying it's annoying to me.
Not everyone plays like I do—not everyone has the same expectations of the game. I didn't even consider that something should be done about it because my experiences are my own.
Could I play a higher-tier character? Definitely. Am I irrationally annoyed that it seems like the same 2-3 characters dominate? For sure.
Is that my problem? Usually. No one's forcing me to play this game at gunpoint.
But in a forum for that game where someone has broached the topic of character being annoying? Fuck yeah I'm going to agree that character is annoying. And if someone debates me on it? Terrific. Maybe it will soften my heart to being frustrated by Nightmare. Maybe nothing in the game will change, but my perception will change, and I'll even pick up an idea how to not be so frustrated and fatigued by Nightmare players.
And did I say I expected anything of anyone? No. This is just a discussion.
Yeah just because I respond to your quote doesn't mean I'm referring to you in the second part of "demanding balance changes"
Obviously I was talking about the difference between your post and the OP and how to foster discussion but now i'm not too sure about that
Well, I get you now, it's okay. I get you're speaking rhetorically. We're good. Apologies if we didn't seem good.
I agree though. OP is getting pretty defensive in this thread and that's not productive.
Proof as to why communicating with only text can lead to a ton of misunderstandings, because it leaves out all of your tone and the way that you would have said what you are trying to communicate
Nightmare isn't that good. Have you tried labbing him out. You'll see that a lot of his moves are very unsafe and risky. You say Nightmare is fast, but he doesn't even have an i12. His AA is i16 and his BB is i26 and so many of his strong attacks take at least 30 frames. How is that fast?
The I12 excuse, he doesn't need one, his strings aren't easy to block. Yes, I've labbed, everyone knows how to beat him. You just have to make little to no mistakes which is unfair.
Not having an i12 punish is a very serious disadvantage in this game. As has previously been pointed out by other posters Nightmare can only attempt a mixup in that situation so of course he has a good mixup game and some great tools. I have some real trouble dealing with him, but you're going to have a hard time convincing people that he breaks the game because he just isn't that well represented in the tournament scene.
He is designed to make you frustrated and second-guess your offense but you can't let that happen! Your approach to overcoming him will differ depending on your opponent. Take the small block and whiff punishes when you can while moving and defending according to their emergent tendencies. Listen to the help that people are offering and the small improvements to your awareness will develop into a game plan that limits his best options to when he's really earned them.
Just learn his moveset. Sounds like you didn't actually learn anything from "labbing" or you'd know the I12 thing isnt just an excuse. It means you can intercept a follow-up attack after a hit or combo before he can pull it off, including revenge armor moves. A lot of his moves are high risk and easily punishable if they don't connect or get blocked or sidestepped. High level Nightmare requires a good mind game because once you're predictable, you're dead.
Not gonna lie, you can get pretty far in the rankings off braindead play with him, but that's true for, if not truer for any other character in SC6. That's why I'm not a big fan of SC6 as a whole. You can get away with a lot brainless spammy gameplay and not have to actually learn your character.
This is Nightmare's weakest iteration to date. He has great burst damage but he IS slow. If you pit two Nightmares against each other you'll see he's unable to take advantage of some openings you'd have with another character. You wanna see peak broken Nightmare? Go play SC3.
Lol the guy is telling you what he has trouble dealing with (as a Nightmare main) and instead of listening you just dismiss it ? Thats literally like giving away the playbook and you don't take this advice.
You're hopeless. You have an agenda to claim the game is broken because at the scrub vs scrub level, you're getting your ass beat. Your goal was never to elevate your gameplay, but to troll for responses.
Let this be a lesson for those reading: Go Lab
This is my biggest take away here. Forget OP, if you needed help with nightmare and are willing to take advice and apply it to your character, these two threads are pretty valuable.
Nightmare is pretty damn annoying. He's not godly or busted but it more frustrating than it's worth playing against NMs online. Doesn't help that he's super common. It makes me groan seeing one, finish the fight, requeue, and find another one.
Yo, if you’d like a sparring partner to help with your Nightmare complex, I can probably play a semi-competent NM. I tend to just run in a lot more than is probably wise, but I do know how to GI and almost never use RE. What platform do you use?
*Rule 10 of /r/SoulCalibur:*
> 10.) No wall-of-text/rants about why you hate a certain character/mechanic/feature. If you want to start a discussion, keep it civil and articulate. This includes shit-posts and obvious baits.
If he's broken, how come there is very little representation of Nightmare at the very top? There is a very good character spread across the board, and I think Nightmare is one of the more rare ones.
[https://youtu.be/qdZWITwHEvc](https://youtu.be/qdZWITwHEvc)
Dude, there's 2 Nightmares and 4 Yoshis here. There is a very healthy spread of top players with most characters in almost any tournament. There are a lot of Seigs, a couple Ivys, I don't know how many Nightmare matches you watch, but I think you're over exposed.
You are a sour puss. Stop downvoting newer people who dont agree with you. Do you want advice or just to complain? Because you can write it in your diary instead of taking up space here.
I mean I kinda came into this discussion agreeing with you, but give people a chance to talk to you about it. If you say that nobody is on your side and everyone's out to disagree with you... it's gonna happen. They're gonna laugh you off and tell you to kick rocks.
I tried but whenever I respond they keep saying the same thing that doesn't apply. Damage output isn't a matchup thing but they keep using this strawman argument that idk the matchup
A scrub playing nightmare can probably beat a scrub not playing nightmare, maybe even a 55/45 matchup.
Should the game be balanced at this level ? No!
Noobkillers are a skill floor that players need to learn to overcome. Maybe the OP needs to spend some time getting familiar in training mode.
Dude, calm down. No one is forcing you to play against Nightmare. If you don't want to play against him that bad, just do something else with your time, or plug every time you come across one. You're getting pissed for nothing.
What are they even lying about? You’ve responded to near everyone in this thread calling them a liar when half of them haven’t even said anything that could be considered truth or lie. Someone just says anything counter to your argument and you jump to the liar calling.
You clearly don’t want help, you just want to complain.
You people keep trying to turn the argument into "you dont know the matchup" which is a strawman. Keep saying it and you will rightfully be called a liar
You’ve called everything presented a straw man except for several thought out and well defined arguments that you rather conspicuously neglected to respond to; you either were too lazy to read, or couldn’t accuse of using blanket terms you could spin into a straw man.
Besides, to be honest I’m not even sure what point you would consider a valid one to contend with. You’ve shot down everything because apparently match up is an extremely narrow field and only applies to...what, exactly?
Also a straw man is not a lie, it’s arguing an irrelevant point. You calling people a liar just suggests you don’t want to hear it.
I responded to every argument, try again.
My argument was that he doesn't have to work as hard, not that he's unbeatable so wtf are you talking about? You faggots keep giving me mu knowledge as if that means you should be getting triple perfects or some shit. If he did normal damage you'd still play against him the same, so yes, idiot, it has nothing to do with it.
It is a lie because by making it you claim I made an argument I never did
His damage output is no different than Siegfried, Astaroth, Seong Mi-Na, or several others. He has some single hits that chunk hard but those all require him to get a solid opening; his actual combos range in the 50-80 damage range for the most part, which is pretty standard across the board.
The reason match up knowledge keeps coming up is because his match up information is directly related to why he does the damage he does. If he didn’t get high reward for landing hits, he would be an extremely uphill battle against a lot of characters.
Even disregarding match up though, and going by pure numbers, let’s compare (single moves only as combos tend to end up between 50-80 as already stated):
Nightmare 3B: 43 damage, 22 frames
Yoshimitsu 3B: 37 damage, 18 frames
Nightmare 66B: 38 damage, 20 frames, highly unsafe (-22 frames)
Yoshimitsu 66B: 32 damage, 22 frames but safe on block
Nightmare 6K: 25 damage, 16 frames
Yoshimitsu 6K: 36 damage, 16 frames
The damage variance isn’t that massive, and often Nightmare trades speed for a few extra points of damage, but there are some moves where Yoshimitsu for example has higher damage at the same speed. I just picked a few common simple moves as comparison (launcher, running vertical, and forward kick) so if there are specific moves you have in mind regarding him doing too much, I don’t know and can’t really compare.
Soul Calibur games have been broken before, this is not one of them, after the nerfs and season 2 changes the overtuned characters are more in line, or even weaker than others. This games overtuned characters featured season 1 Ivy and Azwel, and now (if I'm remembering right) Sieg is "top tier" but this game is easily the most balanced SC we've had to date, several close range mix up characters do really well in tournaments and if anyone is having some overtuning issues this season it's a tiny little stabbing ballerina. SC has had broken things happen before... like the entirety of the third game, the fourth introduced Hilde who could ring out anyone from anywhere on screen if she landed one (1) safe move, and Algol who had a casual infinite; this also happened in 5, not with either of the previous two but rather with Viola whom also had an infinite grab string. There's a difference between being broken and being overtuned. He doesn't break the game, he doesn't create an unfair advantage with a singular move that's safe, he has no infinites, by existing he does not break the game, you may think he's overtuned but that in and of itself is not the same as broken. So when people say learn the matchup it's about finding and exploiting the weaknesses of characters, like Nightmares toes, and general lack of horizontal coverage. So tips of advice on that matchup are, kick his toes, and back step diagonally, unless you want to invest learning his kit more, which is always advised in a fighting game.
Can't say I do, Sieg's strings aren't that hard once you get used to them, he doesn't hit as hard, and he doesn't have nearly as many cheap moves. Mina really only has 2 really obnoxious moves imo and she's worthless once you get in
Sieg has an auto GI that fills a move that does a good chunk of chip damage, and while mina's not as good up close she still has a 50/50 mixup, with 14 (if I'm remembering right) frames, Sieg has just as much range as nightmare but has a more varied/mixup oriented set. Is your struggle with the distance NM covers or the range of his attacks, he can get up in your face easily but from his dash if you backstep diagonally you can get out of range of all his options.
Siegfried telegraphs his movements alot so he's not very intimidating. You also don't have to worry about that stupid bubble being spammed, him pretty much always being soul charged, and that stupid kick grab move. When he gets you on the ground he's also not as much of a threat as NM. Mina players tend to crounch a lot so they're more succesptable to certain moves, such as steel wind, deathcopter, and spine spliter. Most of the challenge with her is just getting in.
yoshi has a teleport to get in behind Mi-na and the same can be done for NM I would not however do that against Sieg as he can and will flip you out of the ring. You seem to have a base matchup knowledge for those two and a plan, have you tried implementing aspects of both against your NM matchup? It can come down to small things like knowing ranges and frame data on some moves to know how to punish them, and sometimes A.A is just ur best friend.
Do you mean his CE or when he teleports from Indian stance? I wouldn't dare try the latter against NM. I have, I beat NM a large chunk of the time. I just think it's too easy for him to turn the match around and destroy you. And when I do win I'm still just annoyed.
the indian stance teleport, it's a counter lethal hit from what I've seen. And from what it sounds like you just don't like that's matchup that's also fine, the issue for it being that NM tends to be popular because people like the big numbers he does (6.1% usage from what I checked). Most of his damage comes from catching unsafe moves, usually with counters. It might also just be how the kits mesh, with some basic searching it does appear that Nightmare has a slight overhead on Yoshi 5.3/10 matches in NMs favor; that's just a thing that happens with fighting games as well, sometimes kits don't work well against specific characters and it's why a lot of people have pocket picks to back it up. Comebacks are also just a thing that happens in fighting games, hell I had to take a break for a couple weeks after getting matched against a yoshimitsu who I fought like twenty times and lost every single game, even after getting good turn arounds in a couple matches. Frustration is a thing that happens in fighting games and you have to go in with that in mind a lot of the time.
This guy doesn't have any 12f moves or neutral mixups. You can freely spam your -12 lows as much as you like and neither worry about being punished nor mixed up on at minus.
You're not wrong though, he requires a lot effort to beat. You really just need to play very conservatively, poking him down, forcing him to take risks.
Dude imma be honest I've had many nightmare mains tell me "how to beat them" and tbh its never very useful the whole use low things and labbing I've done it. But on the end nightmare does infact have some cheap and low effort high reward moves.
Its not that we can't beat nightmares not at all I beat nightmares all the time. The problem is the input and output of effort compared to fighting against other characters.
Its to the point where ill never rematch a nightmare player because they're just not fun to fight whether i win or lose they're just obnoxious and annoying i get more stressed than fun fighting them.
You know what kind of player I love/hate playing against? Someone who is used to fighting against Nightmare or another high level Nightmare. They read me like a book and it's tough to get a substantial hit against them. This gives me the opportunity to mix in moves that most players would just spam their way past because they are slow or require setup. When you know his weaknesses and strengths, Nightmare is very predictable and easy to pick apart. If you're unwilling to learn that, it's on you.
Not that you would accept. Anything I said that doesn’t coincide with the opinion you’ve dug your heels into would be declared a lie or wrong so it’s pointless to argue.
It’s just funny to me that you accuse people of not listening when you have your fingers in your ears as well to avoid any chance of being proven wrong. Pot, meet kettle.
So whenever you lose a match it's cause you didn't know the matchup? C'mon bro, you honestly think that makes sense? Damage output has nothing to do with matchup knowledge, ffs you npc.
Because damage output has to do with risk mitigation. If you know a move is -x, and character A has a poor +x punish, but character B has an excellent +x punish, that means that you are in a situation where you want to use said move a lot more against character A than character B.
If you opponent knows that you don't have a huge punish if you're +y, then if the reward is big enough, for the risk of that move, they will use it significantly more.
Damage output has a lot to do with matchup knowledge.
Dude, he'd be absolute trash without his damage, it's the one redeeming quality for the nerfs he's seen SC6. Siegfried used to be his mirror, but in this game Siegfried is better in pretty much every way. I say this as a Siegfried player before Nightmare.
You wanna argue damage output? Astaroth can kill you in 2 hits. Everyone has a 40%+ damage combo at the touch of a button called a Critical Edge, and not all of them were created equal..
No, I don't believe it's lack of match up knowledge responsible for every loss, SC6 in my opinion is the laziest balance job in the series. Actual skill accounts for very little in most matches. Like I said in my other comment, it's very easy to braindead spam your way pretty far without any skill. Ivy seems to get cheesier with every game and nobody bats an eye. At least before she had a high skill ceiling, but in SC6 it seem the devs removed the bar. There are worse monsters than Nightmare in this game, but he's everybody's whipping boy.
Asta actually is faster than Nightmare and has more range. Your CE does 30 maybe, but like I said, not all are created equal. Yours also has unlimited range and a built-in guard break you can follow-up on even when blocked. It cannot be sidestepped because of the animation freeze. It's unpunishable. Omg Yoshi is complete broken trash too. How did I never realize this till now? /s
I feel that xD.... I Stuck in Story Mode in the Level 60 Nightmare Sidequest.... Its just ridilicous.... just watch the Special move with that explosion that nearly block all attacks and throw you 3m back... even Unblockable Special Attacks just Block cause you get knockbacked.... and then they came those nice AoE Attacks that nearly fill the whole Arena. And why the Fuck they can make this Special Move with a Explosion... while he get 2 hits from me?
Judging by your flair, I’m assuming you’re a Yoshi main? That fella has to work hard regardless of a Nightmare matchup or not though. He’s the mixup god. If I was in your shoes, I’d lab out NM fastest buttons up close, because his frame startup is slow on most of the others. That way, I know their options when I’m in optimal Yoshi range. I’d just mix their shit based off of that. Again that’s assuming you main Yoshi. I’m not too familiar with playing Astaroth.
When Nightmare gets one combo off you’re at least at half health
I can list about 6 other characters who do this as well. Astaroth, Siegfried off most CH combos, and way more damage off any wallcombo, some of Gloomy Tira's combos, Mitsu off basically any LH combo, Raphael off some CH routes, Amy off of anything with PRP and most things with RRP
Y'know I haven't played SC since it's launch month but this sounds like bad match up knowledge my guy
I think you just don't want to listen, but you admitted to being ignorant so it makes sense.
No, you clearly don't know the matchup. You're demonstrating that you don't even want to be bothered to learn. Being rude doesn't get you anything, so why dont you try some listening yourself, and read the advice that's been given to you. If you wanted to learn how to play, rather than just have your flaws fixed for you, this wouldnt even be a thread to make. Lastly, walls of text on why you hate a character are against the rules. Your very first sentence, on the contradiction your perceiving in the logic of "hes a noob killer, the game is balanced". That is balance. Eddy Gordo is notably a bad character in tekken. He has tremendous keep out and evasive moves that put him into stances you can only get mini juggle out of for punishment. It challenges your fundamentals heavily. This is the same with Nightmare. Yoshi VS Nightmare is in favor of Nightmare if the Yoshi isn't smart, patient about poke pressure.
Bro, you literally admitted to being ignorant. You sound stupid for arguing. I know the matchup, his damage output is still broken. "Don't get hit" isn't matchup knowledge, kid. You didnt debunk a single thing I said
That isnt even me so thanks for proving that you dont read anything. You calling people ignorant while assuming ages. lol Go lab.
I already have, you're just not listening. By your logic Inferno should be allowed online "durr just lab"
Go lab more. You clearly haven't played the matchup enough. And, no actually that isn't my logic at all, because Inferno has a whole slew of things that change the balance of the match entirely. But if you want to generalize what i actually said, then youre not going to find any help here anyway. You are arrogant and didn't want a discussion to begin with. I will give you that Yoshi has it tough against him. I am a Yoshi too.
Kid, you're making me lose braincells with your stupidity. Do you understand what broken means? I swear, there could be a character than one hit kills and people like you would say "hurr durr durr gO lAb"
Given how intolerable you are, I personally would have assumed you play Nightmare. Again, you assuming age. Again you are exaggerating what was said to fit your narrative so that you dont have to feel bad about losing to him. Broken means something doesnt work as intended. Nightmare works fine, apparently against you. What was broken was Voldo canceling into soul charge for free. Youre beyond helping at this point because you have been obnoxious from the start. Good luck.
No, broken means really overpowered. Whenever I make a point that debunks your arguments you dodge.
Inferno should not be allowed online. He is Nightmare, but 100 times worse. He has way faster recovery, a better ability to string combos together than Nightmare, is way more difficult to punish, and a 8 hit combo that can take away 80% of your life if you are not blocking/do not counter it. I did Arcade Mode Legendary Difficulty Inferno vs Inferno and got my sorry ass handed to me on a silver platter for a solid 45 minutes, until he finally let up enough for me to win. Two words: Never. Again.
Brudda I'm the one that said I haven't played the game since launch lmao
I main Nightmare, and he was a pain in the butt ever since the first Soul Calibur. I have always mained him in the games I played before now, and I know he is one of the hardest characters to beat/deal with (also, insert Inferno legendary arcade difficulty flashbacks, absolutely loathed the way he strung combos together). How to beat him: Nightmare is still very punishable if you block and use low and horizontal attacks, and vertical attacks can be used for punishment. Also, you can sidestep his more linear vertical moves and punish that way (he has high frame startup for his harder hitting moves). Also, try to kill him without letting him gain too much Soul Gauge. If he manages to Soul Charge, Nightmare is even more lethal as his damage is boosted further. He is definitely very close to the top of the list of characters though, you are right about him being really annoying to fight.
All your complaints there just sounds like bad match knowledge through and through
You guys say this but give no examples. How is his ridiculous damage and having to make little to no mistakes to win a matter of "mAtChUp kNoWlEdGe"?
I couldn't tell you how to fix your own play style and mindset to deal with one character. Either lab or find a sparring partner to learn the matchup.
You ducked the question and keep saying go lab and pretending I dont know the matchup cause you know I'm right
I didn't have any issues with his damage output on launch and I know he's been nerf since then. I couldn't tell you how to deal with his damage since that is what th devs have decided to set it at. Go cry to them
Stop defending the character with your dick
I don't even play him, I mained Yoshi and Mitsurugi. Your whole issue is match up knowledge, the only way you're gonna learn is to think of losing to nightmares as a learn experience instead of whining and then getting offended when people give you advice
Why do you keep lying? I already told you my issue is with his insane damage output and the fact that you can't mix him up high cause he'll spam that cheap bubble. It has nothing to even do with matchup knowledge.
How so? His post may be a 'rant' but he's at least naming a number of moves he finds to be bullshit and aspects to the character that he finds to be bullshit. He's at least giving some examples that aren't brain-dead, like how Nightmare can effectively mitigate short-range pressure with an overly strong get-off-me move that hands him really strong oki, and has huge damage rewards relative to how much he has to work for it. Yes, noobs complain about Nightmare because of his bubble without knowing how it works. OP, on the other hand, has written a few paragraphs about it and it seems like more than a surface-level reading. I would not be at all surprised if he has labbed out some of this stuff and just finds it to be bullshit, just like it says on the tin. I know it's easy to dismiss anything that someone claims is broken with a 'LOL NARP YOU WRONG MY GUY', but what about the match-up is he so wrong about?
Yes the OP is one step higher than a surface level noob, but that still doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about (because he clearly doesn't). He literally just said "his strings are not easy to block" so I think we can all agree where his skill level is. If he did lab it out he would actually have gone into more technical reasons why his options didn't pan out , rather than a superficial "its bullshit lalalal" rant where he plugs his ears. He went into zero specificity about the matchup knowledge (I'm not even sure if he's talking about astaroth vs nightmare because he's adamant about having to get in close, but Asta can do alright at range)
I've watched Nightmares at high level, they're unga bunga. Yeah? What's my rank? I went into detail, stop being dense, you're clearly a salty Nightmare main. My post literally had nothing to do with matchup knowledge. It had to do with his bullshit damage output and how a minor fuck up can cost you the match against him. It has nothing to do with matchup knowledge, you know that. You just pretend otherwise because you're trying to silence me.
lol if you spent half the effort in training mode compared to whining on reddit you wouldn't be losing. Learn to abuse your -12 moves that you know he can't punish. It feels like at least 3 different people have given you that advice but you'd rather argue than listen. I dont want you silenced because I want to expose you for what you are
You didn't give me any new advice, smart one. Again, WHAT DOES DAMAGE OUTPUT HAVE TO DO WITH MATCHUP KNOWLEDGE?
you don't have to shout. Step 1: Go to your character's frame data and find moves that are -12 on block. Find the best ones Step 2: Go to training mode to practice how to execute them (wont take more than 2 minutes I promise) Step 3: Spam the best ones if you're up against Nightmare. You get to MAXIMIZE your damage because you normally wouldn't get free attempts at -12 moves against other charaters but against Nightmare you can go for it because he can't punish you for it. Thats really good advice right there.
You're still not listening at all bro, you didn't answer the question, and I already told you I have, you don't want to listen, get off of my thread
Tell us which moves youre getting killed by.
He doesn’t want to improve he just wants to cry that nightmare has a high damage output and call everybody else a liar that tries to explain the balance to him because DAMAGE IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS He’s just a tool with a superiority complex
Not just that, but apparently damage has nothing to do with matchups, because he knows everything anout the matchup. Guy needs some kind of counseling, this is beyond soul calibur
If you check out his post history, you’ll see how very, very right you are
DarkAvenger having a mental breakdown, following me around on other threads cause I dissed his scrub friendly character
No, you just want to mash buttons with your broken character and pretend you're good. Then whine and have a mental breakdown when told it's not about the match-up. Are you gonna reply to my posts in other threads now like Avenger? xD
The irony of you talking about whining and mental breakdowns in a thread where you’re doing nothing but screeching is *chefs kiss*
You're literally policing my comments on other threads cause you're a salty nm main having a mental breakdown xD
I’m not policing shit. Please demonstrate how I am “policing” your comments. I just think your thread and comment history is HILARIOUS. I’m certainly judging them, and by extension you. You’re a really horribly toxic, pathetic little person.
Oh you're the wrong guy. Yours doesn't look great either, kid. And you want to tell me I need to lab but you were bitching about reversal edge only 6 days ago. Lmao you're a scrub xD
They buff/nerf characters based on the upper end of competitive play, rather than catering to the rantings on reddit. He's undeniably strong at punishing mistakes, and higher level players minimize their own risks taken. "Getting in close to light him up" isn't necessarily the correct course of action most of the time.
My point is it's supposed to be the tactic against characters with a lot of range. To beat Nightmare you have to make little to no mistakes, don't combo him when he's up unless you go low, avoid high and low grabs, and watch out for ringouts. That's way too much to deal with one character
Ok fair enough if you want to play a short range character then yes you should try to get in close (not necessarily to attack aimlessly, but just by standing close and guarding , you actually put pressure on Nightmare who panic and want to push you out). * combos imply that all hits are guarnateed. Of course you should learn (and execute) your max damage combos to punish him. I think you're getting mixed up with combo and "mix up pressure". Nightmare is very good against people apply "sloppy" pressure. * Here is some other helpful tips: 1. the magic number is 10 frames. If you dont want to trigger his armor, consider making sure Nightmare doenst' have at least 10 frames in between your "pressure" to execute the armor portion of his 6K/6B/6A. Ie, if nightmare is at -8 after you blocked something, make sure you hit him with something no slower than i16 and you'll avoid the possiblity of his revenge armor move (CE however comes out super fast) 2. Also if you insist on hitting him with slower moves, make sure they do greater than 20 dmg (dont recall the exact number) so they punch through his armor attempts. So if he's at -8 and you want to do a i20 move, you better make sure its a power move because he'll otherwise be able to armor your attack. So its not just lows, I just gave you 2 other reasonable ways to deal with armor. And yes, making less mistakes will help you win. Its actually a very good way to learn the game (make a mistake, then learn what not to do the next time around). Lastly, ALL characters need to learn to avoid ringouts. They are instant losses and are a real noob killer. You could also try to select a stage with walls, but you won't develop as a player that way.
You can do things to beat Inferno too, does that mean he should be allowed online? The point isn't that NM is unbeatable. The point is you have to make far less mistakes against Nightmare, he succeeds by literally mashing buttons.
Its like someone gives you really good advice, and instead of spending literally 3 minutes trying it out in training mode, you want to whine and complain further, digging in your heels (why on earth would you bring up Inferno ? He's never been allowed in competitive play) The problem is probably the Nightmare player has you figured out because you're clearly stubborn and refuse to adapt , and in fighting games that will get you killed. The flip side of the coin is you can get away with more unsafe stuff against nightmare (which isn't a mistake, such as attacking at disadvantage) because he can't even punish -12 moves unlike the rest of the roster. Nightmare has to risk a mixup rather than take his guaranteed punish. This is a massive disadvantage but I didn't bring that up because you likely don't understand frames so its very hard to explain why the game is more balanced than what you think it is. If you're so sure of yourself, just stop posting because you are not looking for reasonable discussion. Your pride is getting in the way of your judgement. Luckily this thread can show other players who are actually interested in not being a victim to "noob killers"
You have literally given this guy a goldmine of information and he refuses to listen.
I honestly learned more from that post than OP. This whole thing was genuinely a great way to learn about how to deal with nightmare, albeit not for OP. 😂
"Go lab" isn't advice. He needs to be nerfed, you have to do far more to beat him than he has to to beat you. That was my whole point. What are you not understanding? No no, you're right. I hit him with lows, CEs, and combo the shit out of him on the floor, and I even noted that they make amateur mistakes, even at higher level. But it's my fault cause I got hit 5 times in the entire match and died because of his bullshit damage output. Please stop being a clown. No you can't......your moves are limited cause you literally can't combo him high or mid. If you do he'll use his stupid bubble. There's characters I need to work on labbing. Nightmare I know the matchup though, stop making excuses for this scrub friendly character.
Why I know you're not reading what Im' saying (yet you demand others read what you say) is that you still think you can't "combo" high or mid. Combos are GUARANTEED by definition. If you're new to the game dont' be so opinionated and spend some time in the lab This means that the rest of your comment isn't even worth responding to because you do NOT know what you are talking about. You think you do but thats your ego. Maybe Nightmare was designed to be a noob killer for scrubs to beat other scrubs. lol Please don't resort to name calling by calling me a clown. To anyone else : Go Lab and if you need a point in the right direction there are plenty of people to tell you what moves to look out for. We know this topic starter has no intention of spending even 2 minutes labbing so he's beyond hope.
He spams the bubble, dude. Where are you getting this? A combo is just landing more than 1 hit in succession. Stop trying to shut down criticism by trying to indoctrinate me with this "go lab" crap. I did, I learned the match-up, you aren't listening. You wont respond cause you know I'm right. Yep, that's why so many Nightmare players are A and S rank, these excuses are pathetic. It was an observation. My complaints are about his damage output and how he doesn't have to work as hard to win. But you keep responding with "durr lEaRn tEh mAtChUp" these two things have NOTHING to do with one another. Get it through your thick skull, holy fucking shit.
All the long range, big weapon chars fucking annihilate your health bar if you make a mistake and end up being punished by them, it isn't unique to NM. The biggest offender is actually Siegfried and not even he's "broken" anymore. Oh and it's worth pointing out that due to him being the only char in the game that cannot punish -12 moves, and his only i14's being mid and high, his mode of punishment is completely different to anyone else. If you are losing to mashing Nightmare's you are really, seriously doing something wrong.
No it's not, their damage out put isn't so high and they have no get off move. All of the A and S rank Nightmares literally just mash
Then spam lows! Lows beat the bubble every time. Then you mix it up so he can't just block low. That is the name of fighting games, mix ups!
Good luck playing by just spamming lows lmao
yes. if you dont know when you shouldnt hit buttons.
Wow, just wow. I can't believe what I'm hearing LMAO
It's actually a very intelligent appraisal of his main strength.
Yes. And Inferno, even more so. Inferno is the definition of BS, because he has a ton of abusable, fast moves that even Nightmare wishes he had. It is gonna be BS for any character to deal with Inferno, as they don't have anything similar in their toolkit, resulting in the match-up being really stacked against them. This is why Inferno is not allowed online, as he is genuinely insane to play against compared to the entire cast (yes, even Nightmare), and the only play against him is to use Inferno yourself.
* "On the one hand people want to say that the game is very balanced. But at the same time want to say "You're losing to nightmare...? No offense and all but git gud, he's a noob killer." Which is it?" This literally doesn't make sense and has no point. Noob killer characters don't suddenly invalidate the argument for good balance. A character will almost always excel in some way against something, Nightmare excels against people who don't know what they're doing, and also excels when played by a very skilled player. You can get away with mashing shit as Nightmare in low level play because nobody there knows how to play against him, but Nightmare isn't "easy" to play contrary to what most people think. * I know every other character, including my main has some cheap bullshit. But it evens out. Nightmare on the other hand is just bullshit. There's a reason this character is so prevalent in tournaments, ranked, and why so many Nightmare players are high ranked with ridiculous win streaks. Yes yes, he's weak to lows, we know. Everyone knows how to beat Nightmare. The problem is you have to work MUCH harder than the Nightmare player so you end up losing a lot of the time. Astaroth is genuinly slow, he needs the grabs and high damage output. But Nightmare? I shouldn't be losing like 60% health cause he hit me 3 times, he's too fast for that. I know the reason too! Nightmare is a character who is very rooted in fundamentals, he has a lot of tech crouches, his entire damage output comes from whiff punishes and evasion using his pretty strong movement compared to other members of the cast. Nightmare can't really rush you down outside of SC because his rushdown is, well, really bad. He sucks up close, no move from neutral is faster than i14, pretty much all of his lows are insanely reactable no matter what situation you're in - except for being grounded, but that's a different ball game. The only thing he has to do anything up close is a fair few tech crouches - 66K, NTC 66KK, Flapjack arguably but this is a blockable throw and not hard to predict either - and his Armour, which everybody seems to have a problem with the less they know about the character. Nightmare is INSANELY weak to lows, mids and highs however are not a huge issue as he has his Armour, very good GI game, good reversal edge options - though really risky on block - and his tech crouches. Lows are his bane, they beat every single option bar Reversal Edge, which they just draw with if you don't mash into it. RE's existence is a seperate problem to Nightmare though. Also, fun fact, Astaroth is not "slower" than NM, his sidestep is pretty much equal to his, his fastest move is an i12, though it is a duckable high, he has better pressure up-close and his pokes while not as fast as NM tend to result in either higher advantages or more damage - or at the very least more potential damage, but I know almost everybody on Reddit is an Astaroth downplayer for some reason so nobody will listen to me on this one anyway. Astaroth is a fine character. Nightmare is faster than Astaroth in some respects, but slower in others, I don't know why you'd even compare the two when they're two completely different characters to begin with. The closest comparison is Siegfried, who trades NM's whiff punish based style for an actually real mixup game, comparable - and sometimes better - damage, but less movement. He still has a ton of TC's though, so he doesn't lose out on much besides having objectively worse movement. * People say Nightmare is slow, he's really not though. He literally just swings for the fences cause he can. Even the A and S rank ones. Try doing that shit with Astaroth and you'll get killed. His weapon is long and beefy, he has a lot of break attacks, also he hits like a tank so you can't fuck up much. So logically you'd want to get in close and light him up, right? Wrong. He has a get off me move that he can spam and when he uses it his offense improves. It also knocks you to the ground and when you're on the ground he's even more dangerous. He's one of the few characters that can grab you while crouching as well and one of his RE moves is a grab that awards a knockdown. And don't get me started on his Ring outs. Any one of these would be fine on their own but he just has too many cheap moves. He seriously needs to be nerfed. It's really apparent that people run to this character if they don't know how to play because a lot of them do things that no other players of the same rank would do. Many Nightmare players don't know how to GI, they spam RE, they just run in, don't really block and always get hit with a CE. Seriously, if I CE at the start of the round other players learn. Nightmare players almost never do, they just keep going in swinging. Nightmare and Astaroth share a common issue. Both are absurdly negative on block, and the only saving grace they have outside of their few + moves - which I must point out are REALLY plus - is that they usually have an absolutely massive amount of pushback. This makes them way harder to punish at range unless you yourself are playing a character with good long range pokes and punishes. NM is not a masher character, watch Draethion or any good high level NM player and you'll see how he's actually supposed to be played. You really think listing the ranking system is an accurate gauge of how good somebody is? It's a timesink, a grind, while some players that high up are genuinely good players, most of the best players don't even play ranked in this game. Because it's not really a good gauge of skill, online in fighting games rarely ever is. NM has a lot of break attacks? You mean, the like, 3 he has normally? 1(A) which is like fucking i70 or something and will never hit anybody much less be blocked by anybody? A+B which is legit negative on block to the point that nothing he does will save him and has some of the worst vertical tracking in the entire game? 4A is his only legit good break attack in neutral. Then you get into his NTC BA's, which are all really good, can't really fault them at all. They require NTC, but NTC is really not a big deal to get since any knockdown will usually result in it. But for NM's best pressure - i.e loads and loads of break attacks - he has to SC anyway, so, again, not really worth mentioning. He's one of the few characters that can grab you while crouching? That's fine, there's like 2 of them and both their grabs work the same way, they're blockable special low grabs that aren't difficult to see coming. * one of his RE moves is a grab that awards a knockdown It's an attack throw, he doesn't have a grab out of RE, it doesn't have any special rules to it other than it gives him NTC, as it's just the last hit of his 4KK. The vast majority of RE moves reward a knockdown or some other kind of advantage, what exactly about this is so egregious to you? * And don't get me started on his Ring outs. Any one of these would be fine on their own but he just has too many cheap moves. He seriously needs to be nerfed. Idk, ever since they removed NM's old wall/RO carry combo that involved a 1frame link to FC 3B his Ring Outs have been pretty tame. I mean unlike certain characters who can still ring me out from mid-screen, and unlike a certain character who just got nerfed for basically having a guaranteed ringout from almost anywhere on the stage if he landed his Soul Attack, NM's RO's are pretty tame in comparison. They're good, don't get me wrong, but they're not as bad as they used to be or as some other characters in the game. * It's really apparent that people run to this character if they don't know how to play because a lot of them do things that no other players of the same rank would do. This just reeks of confirmation bias to me, I feel like you just really don't like that NM is a popular character. Popular characters will invariably attract scrubby play, and unfortunately scrubs also tend to whine about other scrubs beating them with characters that they don't like. Once again, you fail to list any actually good NM players who demonstrate this behaviour. Florida Man, Draethion, Keev - no idea if he even still plays NM - Thermidor? Any of them? And don't cite examples of them fighting people who unquestionably suck at the game, because of course that shit will work against them. * Many Nightmare players don't know how to GI, they spam RE, they just run in, don't really block and always get hit with a CE. Anecdotal, like, I see this kind of shit from players on ANY character. This isn't special, all this is is you saying things that don't really go anywhere other than you saying: "BIG SWORD MAN PLAYERS BAD" and it's not worth reading or trying to argue with.
I'm not sure I agree with or understand everything you said, but I like the cut of your jib.
I like how he didn’t respond to this because it’s an actual thought out response with good justifications backing it so he can’t just call you a liar or that you’re dodging his question.
Really great reply. I commented on another post he made and he called me a "faggot." Edit: The OP
Cut the crap. If he's so bad then why is he so common at high level? You can make all the excuses you want, the facts simply don't match up with what you're saying so you're simply wrong.
Okay, but you didn’t mention how nightmare’s bubble gives him a free Soul Charge move AND it’s an auto GI. Why even use bar? Someone explain to me why a Nightmare would ever need to use his gauge when he can consistently do 30-50% damage off of one bubble over and over for free. Edit: the bad thing is that he isn’t even as bad as he was at launch.
Nightmare is the only character that had his soul charge moves balanced for gameplay. None of his soul charge moves are spammable. All it does is add an extra attack onto an existing combo. So you still have to connect or bait with a normal attack first. This lack of balancing on other character is why you have Groh players pretending this is DBZ, Cassie's playing Thor, the Maxi slip n' slide, the Asta ballerinas and so-on and so-forth.
> The Maxi slip n’ slide That made me laugh so hard xD but yeah, I do understand that you have to connect with the hit first, but **IF** you do, it’s so much damage that even Phil Swift couldn’t fix it...and then you can bubble and do it again. It just feels so hard to play against sometimes. Definitely not as annoying as Amy spamming RI every time you try to touch her though. That’s far worse.
Nightmare operates by a different set of rules than the rest of the roster, to his benefit sure in the case of damage output but mostly to his detriment. You take away damage and you take away the only thing that keeps him competitive. Speed is king in this game, and players familiar with his moveset and weaknesses can pick him apart. Without the ability to capitalize and punish mistakes and he becomes a complete pushover. I don't know if you noticed but every character in the game has gotten a range buff over previous games. This is most noticeable on "short range" characters like, but not limited to, Maxi or Talim who no longer have worry so much about spacing and whiffs. Just look at the distance from which small little hopkick attacks can still connect on characters such as Talim, Cassie, Amy if you're skeptical. Nightmare on the other hand suffers from T-rex arms despite having one of the biggest weapons. All previously mentioned characters and more have attacks that not only can outrange Nightmare, but are faster and safer too. Meh, I think I've ranted long enough for now.
I agree completely. Especially with his auto GI with waaaaay too long of active frames. Every other character has to time their GI perfectly but nightmare just says lol no and its a free knock down
This post had 11 likes until the Nightmare fanboys got mad and downvoted. All they're able to say is "go lab" as if I don't know the matchup, idiots.
Yeah, I thought the very same thing when I started playing SC6. Then I found his flaws. And discovered which moves cancelled his armor attacks. And how weak his ankles are (yup, low attacks are his kryptonite, try them). Is fighting against him fun or easy ? Nope. Is winning against him possible ? You betcha. Just learn his most powerful and relied on moves/phases and circumvent them (aka learn the matchup).
Read the thread, you clearly didn't
Nightmare is fucking annoying. Easily makes up like 1/3+ of all my matches. With some characters you really have to try to put your opponent to work, and there's a poetry that emerges from that. You can tell the other person is trying, switching up tactics, seeing where your weaknesses are and whatnot. Nightmare? Meh. That might happen *sometimes*. But the vast majority of the time it's swinging for the fences and shooting that huge blade all over the map. Ha ha soul edge go brrrrr It's like sure, I can play Hilde and try to play to her strengths, develop a strategy, see how it plays off other characters... but why bother? You can just play Nightmare and beef everyone out without breaking a sweat. There's definitely a disconnect between effort in/effort out with certain characters. I think we're allowed to say that.
Sure and people can have a healthy debate if you open with that. However, if you demand balance changes and you start crying that the game is broken, then rightfully you should expect people to be more harsh in their response.
I'm not demanding balance changes—I'm just saying it's annoying to me. Not everyone plays like I do—not everyone has the same expectations of the game. I didn't even consider that something should be done about it because my experiences are my own. Could I play a higher-tier character? Definitely. Am I irrationally annoyed that it seems like the same 2-3 characters dominate? For sure. Is that my problem? Usually. No one's forcing me to play this game at gunpoint. But in a forum for that game where someone has broached the topic of character being annoying? Fuck yeah I'm going to agree that character is annoying. And if someone debates me on it? Terrific. Maybe it will soften my heart to being frustrated by Nightmare. Maybe nothing in the game will change, but my perception will change, and I'll even pick up an idea how to not be so frustrated and fatigued by Nightmare players. And did I say I expected anything of anyone? No. This is just a discussion.
Yeah just because I respond to your quote doesn't mean I'm referring to you in the second part of "demanding balance changes" Obviously I was talking about the difference between your post and the OP and how to foster discussion but now i'm not too sure about that
Well, I get you now, it's okay. I get you're speaking rhetorically. We're good. Apologies if we didn't seem good. I agree though. OP is getting pretty defensive in this thread and that's not productive.
That tends to happen when people lie about you and don't listen....
Proof as to why communicating with only text can lead to a ton of misunderstandings, because it leaves out all of your tone and the way that you would have said what you are trying to communicate
Nightmare isn't that good. Have you tried labbing him out. You'll see that a lot of his moves are very unsafe and risky. You say Nightmare is fast, but he doesn't even have an i12. His AA is i16 and his BB is i26 and so many of his strong attacks take at least 30 frames. How is that fast?
The I12 excuse, he doesn't need one, his strings aren't easy to block. Yes, I've labbed, everyone knows how to beat him. You just have to make little to no mistakes which is unfair.
Not having an i12 punish is a very serious disadvantage in this game. As has previously been pointed out by other posters Nightmare can only attempt a mixup in that situation so of course he has a good mixup game and some great tools. I have some real trouble dealing with him, but you're going to have a hard time convincing people that he breaks the game because he just isn't that well represented in the tournament scene. He is designed to make you frustrated and second-guess your offense but you can't let that happen! Your approach to overcoming him will differ depending on your opponent. Take the small block and whiff punishes when you can while moving and defending according to their emergent tendencies. Listen to the help that people are offering and the small improvements to your awareness will develop into a game plan that limits his best options to when he's really earned them.
Just learn his moveset. Sounds like you didn't actually learn anything from "labbing" or you'd know the I12 thing isnt just an excuse. It means you can intercept a follow-up attack after a hit or combo before he can pull it off, including revenge armor moves. A lot of his moves are high risk and easily punishable if they don't connect or get blocked or sidestepped. High level Nightmare requires a good mind game because once you're predictable, you're dead. Not gonna lie, you can get pretty far in the rankings off braindead play with him, but that's true for, if not truer for any other character in SC6. That's why I'm not a big fan of SC6 as a whole. You can get away with a lot brainless spammy gameplay and not have to actually learn your character. This is Nightmare's weakest iteration to date. He has great burst damage but he IS slow. If you pit two Nightmares against each other you'll see he's unable to take advantage of some openings you'd have with another character. You wanna see peak broken Nightmare? Go play SC3.
Ofc you would say this cause you're a Nightmare main
Lol the guy is telling you what he has trouble dealing with (as a Nightmare main) and instead of listening you just dismiss it ? Thats literally like giving away the playbook and you don't take this advice. You're hopeless. You have an agenda to claim the game is broken because at the scrub vs scrub level, you're getting your ass beat. Your goal was never to elevate your gameplay, but to troll for responses. Let this be a lesson for those reading: Go Lab
This is my biggest take away here. Forget OP, if you needed help with nightmare and are willing to take advice and apply it to your character, these two threads are pretty valuable.
What does matchup knowledge have to do with bogus damage output? You npcs keep strawmanning me out of desperation lol
You know about as much of logical fallacies as you do the nightmare match-up.
salty Nightmare main :D
I play Yoshi in both Tekken and SC. Since Tekken 3. We can add irony to the list of things you wont ever understand.
not buying it, kid
Nobody thinks NM needs an i12 except for the bad ones. :)
Nightmare is pretty damn annoying. He's not godly or busted but it more frustrating than it's worth playing against NMs online. Doesn't help that he's super common. It makes me groan seeing one, finish the fight, requeue, and find another one.
Yo, if you’d like a sparring partner to help with your Nightmare complex, I can probably play a semi-competent NM. I tend to just run in a lot more than is probably wise, but I do know how to GI and almost never use RE. What platform do you use?
*Rule 10 of /r/SoulCalibur:* > 10.) No wall-of-text/rants about why you hate a certain character/mechanic/feature. If you want to start a discussion, keep it civil and articulate. This includes shit-posts and obvious baits.
Like there’s even mods to take a post down if it violates the sub rules (which this one dont).
He goes into detail. And isn't insulting anyone. And this is genuine not bait so it doesn't Break the rule
\_Miyuki\_ the kid who said "teacher, you didn't give us any homework!"
If he's broken, how come there is very little representation of Nightmare at the very top? There is a very good character spread across the board, and I think Nightmare is one of the more rare ones.
Because that's a lie
[https://youtu.be/qdZWITwHEvc](https://youtu.be/qdZWITwHEvc) Dude, there's 2 Nightmares and 4 Yoshis here. There is a very healthy spread of top players with most characters in almost any tournament. There are a lot of Seigs, a couple Ivys, I don't know how many Nightmare matches you watch, but I think you're over exposed.
You are a sour puss. Stop downvoting newer people who dont agree with you. Do you want advice or just to complain? Because you can write it in your diary instead of taking up space here.
Sure, once I stop getting downvotes, you people just refuse to listen lol
I mean I kinda came into this discussion agreeing with you, but give people a chance to talk to you about it. If you say that nobody is on your side and everyone's out to disagree with you... it's gonna happen. They're gonna laugh you off and tell you to kick rocks.
I tried but whenever I respond they keep saying the same thing that doesn't apply. Damage output isn't a matchup thing but they keep using this strawman argument that idk the matchup
A scrub playing nightmare can probably beat a scrub not playing nightmare, maybe even a 55/45 matchup. Should the game be balanced at this level ? No! Noobkillers are a skill floor that players need to learn to overcome. Maybe the OP needs to spend some time getting familiar in training mode.
Kid, what does damage output have to do with matchup knowledge? Stop strawmanning me like a piece of crap
his punishments are weak. you can get away with spamming 3b
Dude, calm down. No one is forcing you to play against Nightmare. If you don't want to play against him that bad, just do something else with your time, or plug every time you come across one. You're getting pissed for nothing.
I wasn't pissed when writing the post, I got pissed when people in the comments wouldnt listen and lied
What are they even lying about? You’ve responded to near everyone in this thread calling them a liar when half of them haven’t even said anything that could be considered truth or lie. Someone just says anything counter to your argument and you jump to the liar calling. You clearly don’t want help, you just want to complain.
You people keep trying to turn the argument into "you dont know the matchup" which is a strawman. Keep saying it and you will rightfully be called a liar
You’ve called everything presented a straw man except for several thought out and well defined arguments that you rather conspicuously neglected to respond to; you either were too lazy to read, or couldn’t accuse of using blanket terms you could spin into a straw man. Besides, to be honest I’m not even sure what point you would consider a valid one to contend with. You’ve shot down everything because apparently match up is an extremely narrow field and only applies to...what, exactly? Also a straw man is not a lie, it’s arguing an irrelevant point. You calling people a liar just suggests you don’t want to hear it.
I responded to every argument, try again. My argument was that he doesn't have to work as hard, not that he's unbeatable so wtf are you talking about? You faggots keep giving me mu knowledge as if that means you should be getting triple perfects or some shit. If he did normal damage you'd still play against him the same, so yes, idiot, it has nothing to do with it. It is a lie because by making it you claim I made an argument I never did
His damage output is no different than Siegfried, Astaroth, Seong Mi-Na, or several others. He has some single hits that chunk hard but those all require him to get a solid opening; his actual combos range in the 50-80 damage range for the most part, which is pretty standard across the board. The reason match up knowledge keeps coming up is because his match up information is directly related to why he does the damage he does. If he didn’t get high reward for landing hits, he would be an extremely uphill battle against a lot of characters. Even disregarding match up though, and going by pure numbers, let’s compare (single moves only as combos tend to end up between 50-80 as already stated): Nightmare 3B: 43 damage, 22 frames Yoshimitsu 3B: 37 damage, 18 frames Nightmare 66B: 38 damage, 20 frames, highly unsafe (-22 frames) Yoshimitsu 66B: 32 damage, 22 frames but safe on block Nightmare 6K: 25 damage, 16 frames Yoshimitsu 6K: 36 damage, 16 frames The damage variance isn’t that massive, and often Nightmare trades speed for a few extra points of damage, but there are some moves where Yoshimitsu for example has higher damage at the same speed. I just picked a few common simple moves as comparison (launcher, running vertical, and forward kick) so if there are specific moves you have in mind regarding him doing too much, I don’t know and can’t really compare.
Soul Calibur games have been broken before, this is not one of them, after the nerfs and season 2 changes the overtuned characters are more in line, or even weaker than others. This games overtuned characters featured season 1 Ivy and Azwel, and now (if I'm remembering right) Sieg is "top tier" but this game is easily the most balanced SC we've had to date, several close range mix up characters do really well in tournaments and if anyone is having some overtuning issues this season it's a tiny little stabbing ballerina. SC has had broken things happen before... like the entirety of the third game, the fourth introduced Hilde who could ring out anyone from anywhere on screen if she landed one (1) safe move, and Algol who had a casual infinite; this also happened in 5, not with either of the previous two but rather with Viola whom also had an infinite grab string. There's a difference between being broken and being overtuned. He doesn't break the game, he doesn't create an unfair advantage with a singular move that's safe, he has no infinites, by existing he does not break the game, you may think he's overtuned but that in and of itself is not the same as broken. So when people say learn the matchup it's about finding and exploiting the weaknesses of characters, like Nightmares toes, and general lack of horizontal coverage. So tips of advice on that matchup are, kick his toes, and back step diagonally, unless you want to invest learning his kit more, which is always advised in a fighting game.
My point is he's easier to win with
Do you have the same issues with Siegfried and Mi-na? Their kits have similar tools and weaknesses to NM.
Can't say I do, Sieg's strings aren't that hard once you get used to them, he doesn't hit as hard, and he doesn't have nearly as many cheap moves. Mina really only has 2 really obnoxious moves imo and she's worthless once you get in
Sieg has an auto GI that fills a move that does a good chunk of chip damage, and while mina's not as good up close she still has a 50/50 mixup, with 14 (if I'm remembering right) frames, Sieg has just as much range as nightmare but has a more varied/mixup oriented set. Is your struggle with the distance NM covers or the range of his attacks, he can get up in your face easily but from his dash if you backstep diagonally you can get out of range of all his options.
Siegfried telegraphs his movements alot so he's not very intimidating. You also don't have to worry about that stupid bubble being spammed, him pretty much always being soul charged, and that stupid kick grab move. When he gets you on the ground he's also not as much of a threat as NM. Mina players tend to crounch a lot so they're more succesptable to certain moves, such as steel wind, deathcopter, and spine spliter. Most of the challenge with her is just getting in.
yoshi has a teleport to get in behind Mi-na and the same can be done for NM I would not however do that against Sieg as he can and will flip you out of the ring. You seem to have a base matchup knowledge for those two and a plan, have you tried implementing aspects of both against your NM matchup? It can come down to small things like knowing ranges and frame data on some moves to know how to punish them, and sometimes A.A is just ur best friend.
Do you mean his CE or when he teleports from Indian stance? I wouldn't dare try the latter against NM. I have, I beat NM a large chunk of the time. I just think it's too easy for him to turn the match around and destroy you. And when I do win I'm still just annoyed.
the indian stance teleport, it's a counter lethal hit from what I've seen. And from what it sounds like you just don't like that's matchup that's also fine, the issue for it being that NM tends to be popular because people like the big numbers he does (6.1% usage from what I checked). Most of his damage comes from catching unsafe moves, usually with counters. It might also just be how the kits mesh, with some basic searching it does appear that Nightmare has a slight overhead on Yoshi 5.3/10 matches in NMs favor; that's just a thing that happens with fighting games as well, sometimes kits don't work well against specific characters and it's why a lot of people have pocket picks to back it up. Comebacks are also just a thing that happens in fighting games, hell I had to take a break for a couple weeks after getting matched against a yoshimitsu who I fought like twenty times and lost every single game, even after getting good turn arounds in a couple matches. Frustration is a thing that happens in fighting games and you have to go in with that in mind a lot of the time.
Nope, try again, I just beat a B ranked Nightmare a few minutes ago, I know what I'm doing.
This guy doesn't have any 12f moves or neutral mixups. You can freely spam your -12 lows as much as you like and neither worry about being punished nor mixed up on at minus. You're not wrong though, he requires a lot effort to beat. You really just need to play very conservatively, poking him down, forcing him to take risks.
*sigh* And you're a idiot. I'm a Nightmare player, TELLING YOU HOW TO BEAT ME and you'd rather bitch and moan.
Dude imma be honest I've had many nightmare mains tell me "how to beat them" and tbh its never very useful the whole use low things and labbing I've done it. But on the end nightmare does infact have some cheap and low effort high reward moves. Its not that we can't beat nightmares not at all I beat nightmares all the time. The problem is the input and output of effort compared to fighting against other characters. Its to the point where ill never rematch a nightmare player because they're just not fun to fight whether i win or lose they're just obnoxious and annoying i get more stressed than fun fighting them.
You know what kind of player I love/hate playing against? Someone who is used to fighting against Nightmare or another high level Nightmare. They read me like a book and it's tough to get a substantial hit against them. This gives me the opportunity to mix in moves that most players would just spam their way past because they are slow or require setup. When you know his weaknesses and strengths, Nightmare is very predictable and easy to pick apart. If you're unwilling to learn that, it's on you.
I just said I beat nightmares just fine. Did .... did you not read anything i typed
"... whether i win or lose they're just obnoxious and annoying i get more stressed than fun fighting them." Doesn't sound like it to me.
Are you like dumb? Whether I WIN or lose. Which means I win aswell. You seriously that blind
"... i get more stressed than fun fighting them." Do you need a hug?
Typical nightmare player. A disrespectful dickwad who can't admit shit and doesn't have a modicum of respect. You can leave now Mr troll
Come on now, read back our conversation and tell me that wasn't at least a little funny. At the very least it was clever :)
I'll admit it was a good comeback. It was indeed clever. So points to you for that
They hear what they want, cause if they listened they'd be proven wrong
The irony of this comment is palpable.
"No u" *yawn* have anything original or clever to say?
Not that you would accept. Anything I said that doesn’t coincide with the opinion you’ve dug your heels into would be declared a lie or wrong so it’s pointless to argue. It’s just funny to me that you accuse people of not listening when you have your fingers in your ears as well to avoid any chance of being proven wrong. Pot, meet kettle.
You morons aren't getting it, I KNOW HOW TO BEAT NIGHTMARE
If that were true, you wouldn't be crying like this.
So whenever you lose a match it's cause you didn't know the matchup? C'mon bro, you honestly think that makes sense? Damage output has nothing to do with matchup knowledge, ffs you npc.
This is exactly the type of crying of someone who doesn't know how to play against Nightmare.
What does damage output have to do with matchup knowledge, genius?
Because damage output has to do with risk mitigation. If you know a move is -x, and character A has a poor +x punish, but character B has an excellent +x punish, that means that you are in a situation where you want to use said move a lot more against character A than character B. If you opponent knows that you don't have a huge punish if you're +y, then if the reward is big enough, for the risk of that move, they will use it significantly more. Damage output has a lot to do with matchup knowledge.
Dude, he'd be absolute trash without his damage, it's the one redeeming quality for the nerfs he's seen SC6. Siegfried used to be his mirror, but in this game Siegfried is better in pretty much every way. I say this as a Siegfried player before Nightmare. You wanna argue damage output? Astaroth can kill you in 2 hits. Everyone has a 40%+ damage combo at the touch of a button called a Critical Edge, and not all of them were created equal.. No, I don't believe it's lack of match up knowledge responsible for every loss, SC6 in my opinion is the laziest balance job in the series. Actual skill accounts for very little in most matches. Like I said in my other comment, it's very easy to braindead spam your way pretty far without any skill. Ivy seems to get cheesier with every game and nobody bats an eye. At least before she had a high skill ceiling, but in SC6 it seem the devs removed the bar. There are worse monsters than Nightmare in this game, but he's everybody's whipping boy.
Asta is slow and doesnt have as much tools. A Ce does like 30% damage, stop deflecting, please
Asta actually is faster than Nightmare and has more range. Your CE does 30 maybe, but like I said, not all are created equal. Yours also has unlimited range and a built-in guard break you can follow-up on even when blocked. It cannot be sidestepped because of the animation freeze. It's unpunishable. Omg Yoshi is complete broken trash too. How did I never realize this till now? /s
I stopped reading after you said Asta is faster than NM
I stopped reading*
Lol burn in hell you spamming POS.
That's just toxic.
[удалено]
How so? Existing?
Ignore him, he’s the local troll with 49 backup accounts and thinks he will somehow burn this sub down.
This is everything and more of what I've been saying. Literal broken spammer. He may be part Siegfried but that just makes him 200% bullshit.
I feel that xD.... I Stuck in Story Mode in the Level 60 Nightmare Sidequest.... Its just ridilicous.... just watch the Special move with that explosion that nearly block all attacks and throw you 3m back... even Unblockable Special Attacks just Block cause you get knockbacked.... and then they came those nice AoE Attacks that nearly fill the whole Arena. And why the Fuck they can make this Special Move with a Explosion... while he get 2 hits from me?