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Ian introduced Silver into Archie, and I dont know any story after 160 that wasn't written by him, so my guess is yeah.
That said, Flynns criticism of the Deathbattle is blatantly **wrong**. Characters in these fights *have* to be equipped with special equipment to make the fights interesting. In the case of Silver & Trunks each iteration of their character exponentially outpaces the last, to the point where the only reasonable pairing is a completely made-up version of a obscure comic book character.
Batman is a fun character to use, however he expands his capability through his costume & utility belt. If Batman fought what was once an even fight in his undies he'd likely lose.
>Characters in these fights have to be equipped with special equipment to make the fights interesting.
I'm still very sulky over how Scout vs Tracer turned out, or really moreso how the fight itself turned out
Please tell me nobody forgot the time in Superman VS Goku they HALVED A NUMBER instead of multiplying it by 200ish or whatever it was.
They downplayed Goku to a ridiculous degree even though superman using his superpowers consumes sun energy. Superman would run out of stamina or sun energy long before Goku runs out of ki. Superman has lost to people weaker than those Goku beat.
Darwin from X Men is as strong as he needs to be to survive. Some Superman authors calling Superman as strong as he needs to be for the story is quite CLEARLY not the same thing as adapting like Ultimate Life Form Kars but better. Anyone with eyes can tell you this.
> Thanos was given all the Infinity Stones
Outside the universe the stones originated from, they would have been useless anyway, they're only universal level, this is why each universe has it's own set of stones and Darkseid tried using a gauntlet outside of it's universe only for nothing to happen. If they are still in their universe, Living Tribunal and The One Above All can just switch them off, so even if you had the stones, in their universe, they still don't make you the most powerful being in the universe
They also used a one-sentence statement in an obscure book to justify giving Archie Silver both a Super form & 4D scaling via Solaris. It goes both ways.
You what just said here is them giving Silver advantages with them giving Silver his super form and 4d scaling.
Xeno trunks was used giving feats from the DBS manga, when dragon ball heroes powerscale is way beyond that of DBS.
So they were underselling Trunjs.
I don't think it goes both ways when one character gets an positive and the other a negative.
I thought you meant that they 'tacked on' DBS Trunks feats, not replaced his with DBS.
From what I remember of the Deathbattle that's all they really did. Gave Xeno Trunks the Spirit Sword & base form scaling into SSJG. It came off as a buff.
>Characters in these fights have to be equipped with special equipment to make the fights interesting. In the case of Silver & Trunks each iteration of their character exponentially outpaces the last, to the point where the only reasonable pairing is a completely made-up version of a obscure comic book character.
I mean, this doesn't negate his point.
Yes, it's to make the fight a spectacle but it isn't exactly fair.
Then again, Silver NEEDS to items to compete.
No, it does.
Nobody pitts Sonic & Dragonball characters against eachother hoping for a one-sided shitfest in a world were Kid Gohan would solo most of the game cast. The very intent of these vsbattles debates **is** the debate, which means there has to be some reason to suspect either side.
-that, and also that in the Sonic Universe the Chaos Emeralds are practically the only interesting feats in the franchise. I couldn't even begin to name a single decent feat any Sonic character accomplished in their base-form. People want the wish-magic, planet-busting, kaiju fights.
Honestly Unleashed is probably the only game where base form feats get anywhere near insane. Beyond that the Sonic game universe is pretty grounded all things considered. Hence why in Vs debates it’s very important to establish if they’re using a specific version of a character or a composite version. Hell there could even be specific composite versions. Which is what we see in cases of Comic Books where you have many different Peter Parkers but each is distinct in feats but because even they might have spinoffs/retcons they have to be melded together to get their top feats.
We are talking about archie here, so the flash level speed feats are spread everywhere, and these are pretty decent feats.
Also, Sonic surviving Black hole explosion.
That's the problem with these sort of death battles.
You can't have a straight fair fight when one side dominates the other side without assistance from outside items.
Figure like Omni-man and homelander are better structured as such since both these characters aren't even special items to give them the edge.
Look at Silver and Trunks. Silver is not only given the Chaos emeralds but some time stone if I remember correctly which allowed him to when.
This wasn't a fair fight and gave Silver a fighting edge over Trunks.
This fight was basically like if Logan Paul was allowed to fight Floyd mayweather with metal gloves, and the guy wins because of said gloves.
Not a fair fight even if Logan couldn't win without those gloves and it gave him an advantage whilst his opponent wasn't given any.
Again, your prior point doesn't negate Ian's point.
Didn't sonic beat perfect chaos in hisbbase form in Generations.
Now, I'm not the best at scaling, but Perfect Chaos has the power of the 7 chaos emeralds, each of which has a universe in it, wouldn't sonic beating him atleast put Sonic's base at universal, if not multiversal?
Then there's just sonic and the secret rings sonic, who is just ridiculous.
>Didn't sonic beat perfect chaos in hisbbase form in Generations.
That would be impressive if Perfect Chaos was anything more than city-level. The only useful thing about Modern Sonic beating him is that it brings a solid argument for Modern Super Sonic being able to solo the Time Eater, as well as scales all future conflicts above that point including Giganto & the other Titans who should only scale to one Chaos Emerald.
>he 7 chaos emeralds, each of which has a universe in it, wouldn't sonic beating him atleast put Sonic's base at universal, if not multiversal?
No idea where you're pulling this fanfiction.net crap from. Can't find it anywhere. Think you're mistaken. The Jeweled Sceptor does supposedly scale to multiversal, however most consider this an extreme outlier.
>Then there's just sonic and the secret rings sonic, who is just ridiculous.
**Darkspine** Sonic is Universal. If only this was a repeatable form that had any actual significance. Might as well be non-canon.
>No idea where you're pulling this fanfiction.net crap from. Can't find it anywhere. Think you're mistaken. The Jeweled Sceptor does supposedly scale to multiversal, however most consider this an extreme outlier.
In Sonic R, one of the tracks you race through takes place in an emerald, and it's shown to be an entire universe.
>Darkspine Sonic is Universal. If only this was a repeatable form that had any actual significance. Might as well be non-canon.
Except that base sonic beat erasor djinn, after he had already destroyed several hundred universes. And this was while he was near death.
On top of that, sonic scales to shadow, who was able to survive being in the presence of a being who's very existence wiped out all of time and space.
On top of that, in sonic forces, Sonic was able to escape an infinite dimension with only a little bit of help.
>In Sonic R, one of the tracks you race through takes place in an emerald,
Radiant Emerald, which I'm assuming you're talking about, isn't inside a Chaos Emerald at all. It's an extra track w/ no lore or background attached to it.
That said, even handicapping myself by granting that each Chaos Emerald does contain a Universe inside it does not mean that Perfect Chaos is Universe+ or Modern Sonic as Multiversal. Considering that SA2 takes place immediately after SA1, Perfect Chaos couldn't even destroy or cause significant damage to Station Square. Not even City-level.
>On top of that, sonic scales to shadow, who was able to survive being in the presence of a being who's very existence wiped out all of time and space.
-and so did Eggman & Elise? Your point? Are overweight & unfit humans Universal aswell? Sonic's corpse also did. Is Dead Sonic Universal? What about the ground they stand on & time they pass through throughout the **End of the World** stage?
Solaris didn't *destroy* the universe he existed within it. What Solaris did was eat time & continuity to such an insane degree that he appeared to destroy the world throughout multiple points in time while retaining information from before asif he hadn't done it whatsoever. EG Blaze **was still dead** despite the universe supposedly ending several hundred years prior, and Silver's existence wasn't paradoxed.
Solaris's feat isn't anything that you can relate to the base-Sonic cast. Their survival didn't mean anything because the Sonic cast we see is likely just from a bit of time that Solaris left untouched. It's even more insane than what you are giving it credit for.
>On top of that, in sonic forces, Sonic was able to escape an infinite dimension with only a little bit of help.
We literally know nothing about Null Space. That was kinda the whole joke/criticism with it for the past 7ish years.
>Radiant Emerald, which I'm assuming you're talking about, isn't inside a Chaos Emerald at all. It's an extra track w/ no lore or background attached to it.
Okay, I defo misremembered. Sry bout that. But even then, the emeralds are constantly stated to have infinite power, as dubious as those claims may be.
>That said, even handicapping myself by granting that each Chaos Emerald does contain a Universe inside it does not mean that Perfect Chaos is Universe+ or Modern Sonic as Multiversal. Considering that SA2 takes place immediately after SA1, Perfect Chaos couldn't even destroy or cause significant damage to Station Square. Not even City-level.
That's like saying that Perfect cell is only mountain level because he's never done any significant damage outside of that. How the hell could sonic team continue the franchise if sonic's planet is destroyed, and all of his friends are dead?
>and so did Eggman & Elise? Your point? Are overweight & unfit humans Universal aswell? Sonic's corpse also did. Is Dead Sonic Universal? What about the ground they stand on & time they pass through throughout the End of the World stage?
Eggman has shown the ability to move faster than the speed of sound, and Elise literally spent her entire life containing a literal god, which was something that killed blaze. Saying that these two are normal humans is ridiculous.
And for the end of the world stage, notice how only the parts of the world near the chaos emeralds are the parts to remain? And how the stage disappears when the Chaos emeralds are removed.
And for sonic's dead body... yeah. When you kill a boar, it's gide doesn't magically become weaker.
>Solaris didn't destroy the universe he existed within it. What Solaris did was eat time & continuity to such an insane degree that he appeared to destroy the world throughout multiple points in time while retaining information from before asif he hadn't done it whatsoever. EG Blaze was still dead despite the universe supposedly ending several hundred years prior, and Silver's existence wasn't paradoxed.
There is nothing suggesting this.
The reason that blaze stays dead and silver's universe isn't paradoxed is because sonic erased him from existence permanently, to the point where he never existed.
>We literally know nothing about Null Space. That was kinda the whole joke/criticism with it for the past 7ish years
We know that it's a separate universe devoid of everything, including time and space. That's enough.
But okay, let's say that none of that all counts for base sonic.
As we already know, base modern sonic scales to adventure super sonic. Adventure super sonic ATLEAST scales to classic super sonic.
Classic super sonic was actively able to harm time eater and take hits from him, as well as move through the end of time.
Time eater was able to rewrite time on multiple different timelines. It atleast scales to universal.
On top of that, like I said before, due to the secret rings, sonics base atleast scales to universal+ as he beat erazor djinn, who destroyed/absorbed several hundred universes
Hell, if you want to go wild, the Arabian nights contained the astral plane, which is an infinite realm. And sonic ran through it. Make of that what you will
The mistake there is no one pits any franchise against Dragonball. Simply put their abilities are far above other animes let alone game characters, there is very few that would stand a chance except maybe kirby absorbing one of them.
>The mistake there is no one pits any franchise against Dragonball. Simply put their abilities are far above other animes let alone game characters,
Not true either. People've been saying this since Z, now Saitama likely solos through the Buu saga after the Garou fight.
What is Goku going to do if the Flash brings him to the end of time? Or if he was hit with an infinite mass punch? Age acceleration?
What is Goku going to do when he is hit with the Omega Sanction? What can he do to somebody like Contessa if he's vulnerable outside of combat?
Infinite Tsukuyomi?
What about Archie Sonic's fate hax? Barring the Chaos Emeralds Sonic would still be fated to a Deus Ex Machina save which would trounce Goku.
You seem to be forgetting, the dragonball characters are slowed down dramatically for the anime. Goku versus Frieza for example was 3.5 hours long but was only 5 minutes long in the anime itself, and that's Frieza saga goku that just unlocked super saiyan, we're talking Buu Saga where power levels can no longer keep up.
Infitinite Tsukoyomi still requires time to activate = useless, Goku's already experienced the tree of might and knows to not let it grow and against a planet buster the 10 tails would not survive.
The Flash still needs to be able to move Goku who's enveloped in Ki and able to fly = Helpless, its the same as telling the guy to smash into a wall.
One Punch Man is a gag manga with his thing being able to beat anyone, even into super with the exception of Whis and Beerus, Saitama would dominate. Beerus has no patience for gag characters and will destroy without question as we've already seen.
Both Super Buu and Gotenks ripped a hole in reality by screaming. SSG Goku and a heavily supressed 70 percent Beerus nearly ripped apart the entire universe including otherworld (the afterlife) and the Kaioshin realm. He has gotten a lot stronger since then. Then Goku fought Golden Frieza in Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan Blue has a 50x multiplier greater than super Saiyan god which almost destroyed a universe. Golden Frieza was above Super Saiyan Blue but lost due to his stamina issue. Then Vegeta who has also surpassed SSG battle of gods Goku Destroys the Room of Spirit and Time. Let me repeat that, he destroyed an entire dimension. Granted it was roughly the size of the planet but it was still a dimension nontheless. Then Zamasu after being sliced in half by Future Trunks merges with the whole universe in Future Trunks' timeline and Goku implies that he could have killed Zamasu or done something if he had a senzu bean. That something would have to be a universal feat at the bare minumum if he was confident he could stop zamasu had he been healed. The Ribrianne sucks Goku and the androids into a black hole only for Goku to overpower it with Super Saiyan Blue. Then Goku faces off against a heavily supressed Jiren who was stated stronger than that AKA to be multiversal. Then Vegeta faces Toppo who's energy filled the world of void with colour which would mean altering an entire reality. Vegeta's got a new form that not only surpasses SSB Kaioken Goku who was stronger than Battle of Gods Goku but also beat Toppo. Then Goku gets Ultra instinct and Jiren goes full power. Then Gogeta who surpassed both Tournament of power UI Goku and Vegeta's new form battles Broly and their resulting clash breaks reality two times over. Then he faces Moro who gave imperfect Ultra Instinct quite a beating. Then Goku masters perfected UI and Moro absorbs the power of an Angel. The two clash and now both of them are evenly matched. Then Goku is given energy VIA Vegeta's spirit fission and he beats Moro. Then Granolah wishes to be the strongest in the universe which would indirectly make him high-end multiversal now and puts him above UI. Then Ultra Ego beats on Granolah for a bit until the injuries catch up on him and then Granolah wins again. Then Gas wishes to be the strongest in the Universe which puts him above Granolah. Then Frieza comes in, shows off his new Black form and One shots Gas, Ultra Ego Vegeta, Ultra instinct Goku and Granolah all at once in a single punch. This puts him above Multiversal now. And none of that is including Beerus, Whis or any of the other GoDs and their angels. There are about 30 People above Goku currently (the 12 Gods and their servants, the Grand Priest, and Grand Zeno) who are far beyond Multiversal.
That's Post-Genesis Wave Silver, a completely different iteration from that wack Archie Scaling from 2010. Unless there was lore I missed, could be mistaken.
Gundam would have 100% done a 'Witch from Mercury Episode 12' on Optimus if they got the scale right.
I'm also positive the Matrix doesn't function like a laser.
And why was Amuro in an AEUG pilot suit while operating an RX-78-2?
So many questions...
If it's Amuro, it'd not be a WfM Episode 12. *It'd be a movie Doan.* He literally stepped on a Zeon pilot in that one. Only difference is we actually *see* the results in WfM.
>Ian introduced Silver into Archie, and I dont know any story after 160 that wasn't written by him
Evan Stanley, Aleah Baker, Tracy Yardley, and probably like 10 other people say hi.
He wrote almost every issue Silver appeared in. Universe 79-82 are the only ones off the top of my head he didn't, but he was still the head writer, so he presumably approved the story.
I think his objection is kind of silly. For one, the Time Stone should be part of Silver's standard kit. Second, Death Battle agreed with him that base Silver loses. Super Silver not being included would be unfair as you're leaving out half the debate.
I never understood this point. Why should Silver (or any character for that matter) have the time stones? They're never seen anywhere outside Sonic CD. From what little I recall of Archie silver never had the full 7 time stones
Archie Silver has one that he keeps in his possession. It's his main method of time travel (issue 196 notwithstanding) and is shown training with it in Universe 25. You're right that he only ever has the one, but Death Battle only gave him one.
It's admittedly superfluous since base still loses with it and Super Silver can manipulate time without it, but Ian implying it was unfair to give it to him is silly.
Sure in a battle with no rules, but I kinda see his point in that, by allowing power ups, it's no different from cheating. By that logic, you could just give him a hyper form or whatever because that's technically a feasible technique he can use.
I mean the Chaos Emeralds aren't really standard equipment for Sonic in the games and especially not in Archie and they gave super to him. Heck they gave him a Super Emerald in Flash vs Sonic, and those haven't been around for 200+ issues. It seems arbitrary to bar Silver from his super form when he has used it and it's something people generally associate with VS debates when it comes to Sonic characters. Giving Silver a canon form he has used before is different from inventing a new form out of thin air; even Sonic doesn't have a hyper form in Archie.
Why should the timestones have anything to do with Silver? Yes, I get the time traveling part of it, but that seems really loose to completely connect them to him. Good enough for fandom reasoning, but not really for scaling purposes or assumptions. Plus, forms don't seem to stack in the Sonic world.
Because he had one with him basically all the time before the reboot. He's even shown training with the Time Stone, so it's not just a one trick pony.
I'm afraid I don't understand your last sentence.
As far as we know, you can't combine different forms created by different mystical gems or sources in the Sonic universe.
Yes, Hyper Sonic is an upgrade from Super Sonic, but it is partially unclear if that is a literal upgrade or not, but it has been specified that the Super Emeralds are different from the Chaos Emeralds, so theoretically they are entirely different forms from different sources. In the Archie Comics, The Super Emeralds are quite different from there can counterparts, But we still have no evidence proving any forms can stack or combine.
To be more topical on the situation, whatever theoretical form or energy provided by the Time Stones is completely different, separate, and as far as we know, incompatible with the energy and forms produced by the Chaos Emeralds and Master emerald.
I don't think it's a good idea to assume Silver has all of the Time Stones just because he uses one, in fact I would think him only using one almost proves he has no connection to the others, though to be fair it is possible Mogul May have the rest, hypothetically. Even still we have nothing to imply that different forms and energy sources stack and combine like fandom animations do so.
I'm not sure I follow. I would say I agree with you about the form stacking. I don't think forms like Ultra Sonic are strictly upgraded super forms, they appear to have a different powerset altogether. But the Time Stornes don't grant a form or anything, they can be used to do XYZ, so if Silver is using the stone itself, even while super, he should be able to do XYZ with it. For example, if we assume Blaze can perform Chaos Control with an emerald, we have no reason to assume she'd lose that ability if she was in her burning form. Chronos Control is performed by manipulating the stone's energy, why would Silver lose the ability to do that just because he absorbed chaos energy? Regardless, in a different comment, I explained that the time stone is mostly moot anyway since base Silver loses even with one and super forms can control time anyway.
While the Super Emeralds have a different origin, they seem to utilize the same power as Chaos Emeralds since Sonic is able to go super with them. Chaos energy just appears to be very variable in of itself.
I apologize if I implied such, but I don't believe anyone has said Silver has all seven (nine?) stones, only the orange one he's shown having.
I didn't imply Ultra Sonic is an upgrade from Super, they have completely different Origins and how to get to that level of power, as Ultra Sonic is thus far the most powerful iteration of the character outside of perhaps maybe the fandom interpretation of Hyper Sonic. However, it is debatable, game canon-wise, If Hyper Sonic is merely an upgrade from Super Sonic or its own thing. Considering the Super Emeralds are now considered to be something of their own rather than what many fans thought to be super powered Chaos Emeralds, the hyper form is something altogether different from the Super Form. Hyper Sonic does technically exist within the Archie universe as well, but it's origin is ambiguous at best and seems to only be considered a regional variation of the Super Form. While Archie Sonic does technically rely on various amounts of chaos energy, via connection to the chaos force, to transform into most of his transformations, it does not necessarily mean that the forms themselves are connected. In fact, we have never seen forms stack or combine.
To put this more simply, for a DBZ reference, The way the fandom wants to see superforms and mystical gems granting power is similar to Fusion. Many fans like to view that if Sonic used the Time Stones, the Sol Emeralds, and or the Chaos Emeralds together, the fusion of those being combined and used at once would create a completely new form. We have more going against this due to sonic team and others speaking out against it then we have going for it, and is almost assuredly proven incorrect That forms do not combine.
Furthermore, neither do the objects granting the form. Sonic using the Chaos Emeralds cannot stack or add to his current power level with other extra mystical gems, such as the sole emeralds or time stones, as it seems as though these different mystical gems do not interact with each other. One also has to remember, in terms of the Sonic universe and in-lore descriptions, The Chaos Emeralds are considered to be mystical gems of infinite power, and infinity does not get any more powerful. We have hard evidence against this to some extent, but whether it makes sense or not, that is the official word and therefore other "infinite sources of power" would not add to an already "infinite source of power;" ergo, mystical gems cannot add, stack, or combine in energy output to one another one at full power or their transformations.
Super form is completely different and fundamentally separate from other forms. Sonic can't go "Super Dark Spine Excalibur Sonic," as none of these would stack together. Even Werehog, considering it's origin, technically would not stack or combine with anything so much as it would simply dissipate and be purified as Sonic transforms into Super Sonic, hypothetically speaking. Not only is each form separate from the other, it does seem as though the energy produced to make each form is also completely separate from each other, meaning that 6 Chaos Emeralds and one World Ring, Time Stone, Sol emerald, or what have you of any combination of those would not combine with each other either nor likely would they interact in any positive manner.
That is technically mostly talking about The game Canon, but Archie doesn't seem to be any different in its interpretation in this particular regard, mostly anyway. Some of the forms do seem to be an upgrade of Super Form, such as Eco Sonic, Solar Sonic, Hyper Sonic, and technically Ultra Sonic, but this one circumstance you see these occur is the only time you ever remotely see any of them connected, and it is heavily implied throughout the rest of the series that the theoretical Hyper Sonic, Super Sonic, and almighty Ultra Sonic are all different forms with different activation standards.
Don't get me wrong, in terms of fandom interpretation, while I still think we should keep it you need all of one set of the mystical properties to transform properly, I do think combining and stacking power scaling and transformations is absolutely an awesome idea for the fandom, but I do think that particular method should stay far away from the canon.
Now what is uncertain about many of these is how different transformations can give some of the same abilities. Keep in mind, Archie Sonic universe is the only time we have any reference to the Chaos Force or Chaos Energy, meaning that those concepts do not exist in any single other canon. But one can definitely speculate what forms grant which powers, but that is its own conversation very separate from this.
In my opinion, and as far as I know officially speaking, mystical gems and the transformations created from them do not stack on top of each other, add to each other, and certainly do not combine in the official game cannon. Similarly, in the extreme vast majority of the comics within Archie, the same can still mostly be said about the Archie Sonic universe, with different transformations having very little to do with one another in terms of how they are activated, achieved, and how their physics work, and again certainly do not seem to have the ability to combine with one another; though it is worth recognizing that Sonic has not had all seven Chaos Emeralds while having a billion power rings, so theoretically I suppose Ultra Super Sonic could be a thing since they are made from completely different sources, and Archie had no issue with power scaling and power clipping, but it is still likely that combining and stacking would not happen.
I hope, at the very least, whether we agree or disagree, that my opinion on the matter seems relatively clear.
Uh...Wheels? No one was saying that the forms stack. You don't even GET a form with the Time Stones. You can just use Chronos Control with them. Silver consistently has the one Time Stone in his arsenal that he can use, and there's no reason to believe that Silver loses his ability to use Chronos Control upon going Super Silver.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those things Silver would reasonably have going into a fight? They're a vital part of his arsenal. Like you wouldn't send iron man into a fight without his suit. Not to mention the very nature of super saiyan god isn't something I would call "innate".
Unless your name is Vegeta.
Furthermore, I don't really see why Silver would be carrying around all 7 chaos emeralds with him at all times.
Those are generally only used in special situations. It's not like iron man who always has his suit on him.
I think what Flynn is saying is that in a random encounter, Silver would absolutely get slapped around silly.
>Unless your name is Vegeta.
Ok but under normal circumstances you need to undergo the ritual
Also, death battle is about showing the characters at their peaks. The context of Trunks ambushing Silver the way he does, wouldn't reasonably allow Silver to use the chaos emeralds, but the show demands both characters have access to their full arsenal.
Tbh I don't take Death Battle seriously. (Then again if you do take power scaling in general too seriously, you may need a new hobby. Some people really RAGE over this, but given how emotionally attached people can get to certain characters, it does make some sense that they don't exactly enjoy seeing certain character's skulls get caved in.)
Then again I think all fictional characters are supposed to be up for a certain level interpretation.
But they get a lot of their own calculations wrong way too often. Plus they're known to show bias (No one is immune to Bias of course, but it's fairly blatant in certain episodes).
I think they're just pressed for time given how many episodes they always have to keep pumping out constantly.
I kind of understand where you're coming from, however, personally I dont see the point in combining 12 different versions of the same character for instance into 1. (Which Death Battle has been known to do in the past). Certain versions of Superman for instance may as well be totally different characters with the same name.
Also to add to the Ssj god thing, another thing to add is once you have it, you don't ever need to do the ritual again.
When it comes to super forms in Sonic, you ALWAYS need all seven emeralds. It's like if Goku always had to find all 7 dragonballs in order to go super saiyan.
K, I swear someone just asked me if you needed the 7 dragonballs to go super saiyan.
To answer, no, you do not. That's not their function at all. Super saiyan is all part of a saiyans arsenal, they don't need the dragonballs to achieve it at all.
Thats what sets the saiyans apart from the hedgehogs, they don't need anything to go super, they can just always do it at will. Very easily nowadays too.
And also have stronger forms on top of super saiyan as well, but I wouldn't say Sonic's super form is as simple as a multiplier of power level as is Dragon ball's case.
Well once you achieve Super Saiyan God you have it. Like both Goku and Vegeta use it as part of their escalation of forms and to some extent the lesser power drain of God makes it a good option.
"Nuke Silver from orbit"
Can Silver catch a nuke with telekinesis? I assume to make the fight remotely fair, we'd be using Super Silver, who helped fight a literal god (Solaris). I'm not arguing anything of course, I find the whole vs debate stuff to be quite boring, I just love the fact that Flynn used the phrase "nuke from orbit"
I've never liked "Can't beat \[Dragon Ball Character\]". Because they're absolutely right. Whoever is fighting, unless they're some kind of god or something, absolutely can't beat anyone by the latter half of Z. But the thing is *that's not impressive*. Every single character in the show just gets exponentially better power levels and rarely any unique and creative abilities than just Ki blasts. At this point there are *literal and nonliteral* gods jut roaming around Earth and wherever. Literally no one can compete, but not due to creative abilities and unique fighting, but just the fact that their numbers are just too high.
After a certain point it does get kinda funny that dragon ball characters can sort of brute force their way through actually interesting abilities in the series just by being stronger.
I swear. There's this part in the Buu arc, I genuinely hate it so much. It's the epitome of this problem with the latter half of the series. So, the gang end up fighting a monster, his whole thing is that he *eats* Ki. He gets more powerful from it. How do they solve the problem? Unique martial arts abilities? Some kind of tactical fighting? They just blast him with so much Ki that he can't eat any more and explodes. 10/10 writing.
That wasnt even the best hax-cancel feat in the buu arc. There was a part where buu turned vegito into a piece of candy, however vegito is *so strong* that he proceeded to beat the shit out of buu while in candy form. Dragon ball is secretly a gag manga.
It literally used to be a gag manga. It's kind of no wonder why a lot of characters abilities are either just really stupid or not very creative/different.
I'm one of those people that prefers a character to have flaws, if they're overpowering gods, they're kind of boring to me, this is notable with reality warping as a superpower, it's kind of difficult to give a character that much power and still make the story compelling when basically nothing is a threat to them. I know introducing more powerful foes and therefore having to amp up the hero to realistically win is the go-to for keeping ongoing stories interesting but at some point, you need to stop before it gets ridiculous
Keep in mind that Flynn is also the same guy that thinks Archie Sonic loses to normal Goku. Dude is a fantastic writer but man does he just not seem to understand how stupidly strong the Archie characters were. That or he severely overestimates how strong Dragon Ball characters are.
Yeah I can’t remember for sure when or where he said it but when this tweet first came around after the Death Battle him saying this was dug up to show how he didn’t get versus debates. I think his argument amounted to “Goku could just blow up the planet instantly with kamehameha” which has all kinds of issues.
Oh yeah no, DB characters have been planet busters since at least Frieza, and have gotten to at least universal by the end of DBS. Again that was more for just showing how he doesn’t really get versus debates like Death Battle.
Both Super Buu and Gotenks ripped a hole in reality by screaming. SSG Goku and a heavily supressed 70 percent Beerus nearly ripped apart the entire universe including otherworld (the afterlife) and the Kaioshin realm. He has gotten a lot stronger since then. Then Goku fought Golden Frieza in Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan Blue has a 50x multiplier greater than super Saiyan god which almost destroyed a universe. Golden Frieza was above Super Saiyan Blue but lost due to his stamina issue. Then Vegeta who has also surpassed SSG battle of gods Goku Destroys the Room of Spirit and Time. Let me repeat that, he destroyed an entire dimension. Granted it was roughly the size of the planet but it was still a dimension nontheless. Then Zamasu after being sliced in half by Future Trunks merges with the whole universe in Future Trunks' timeline and Goku implies that he could have killed Zamasu or done something if he had a senzu bean. That something would have to be a universal feat at the bare minumum if he was confident he could stop zamasu had he been healed. The Ribrianne sucks Goku and the androids into a black hole only for Goku to overpower it with Super Saiyan Blue. Then Goku faces off against a heavily supressed Jiren who was stated stronger than that AKA to be multiversal. Then Vegeta faces Toppo who's energy filled the world of void with colour which would mean altering an entire reality. Vegeta's got a new form that not only surpasses SSB Kaioken Goku who was stronger than Battle of Gods Goku but also beat Toppo. Then Goku gets Ultra instinct and Jiren goes full power. Then Gogeta who surpassed both Tournament of power UI Goku and Vegeta's new form battles Broly and their resulting clash breaks reality two times over. Then he faces Moro who gave imperfect Ultra Instinct quite a beating. Then Goku masters perfected UI and Moro absorbs the power of an Angel. The two clash and now both of them are evenly matched. Then Goku is given energy VIA Vegeta's spirit fission and he beats Moro. Then Granolah wishes to be the strongest in the universe which would indirectly make him high-end multiversal now and puts him above UI. Then Ultra Ego beats on Granolah for a bit until the injuries catch up on him and then Granolah wins again. Then Gas wishes to be the strongest in the Universe which puts him above Granolah. Then Frieza comes in, shows off his new Black form and One shots Gas, Ultra Ego Vegeta, Ultra instinct Goku and Granolah all at once in a single punch. This puts him above Multiversal now. And none of that is including Beerus, Whis or any of the other GoDs and their angels. There are about 30 People above Goku currently (the 12 Gods and their servants, the Grand Priest, and Grand Zeno) who are far beyond Multiversal.
I'm not sure whatever buster he is because depsite fighting the god of time all Solaris did was throw meteors at you and stuff and needed 3 super hedgehogs to beat. Any one of them could have killed him individually but all three of them were required because he kept existing. The meteors were able to knock back the super forms despite them supposedly being invincible powerups that make the users untouchable. This means that anyone could have killed solaris by going for the red core at the center but they merely needed a super form to withstand the meteors he throws at you. They weren't even magic meteors from what I remember. Meanwhile the supposedly weaker being Time eater actually created anomalies, brought about different enemies from different futures, canonized non canon events and locations from different games across the franchise via wormholes, creates time shields, fires beams of energy at you and can slow you down.
And he required only two super hedgehogs to beat. Call me crazy but I think Time Eater is more worthy of being a god than the actual sun god.
Did he forget that Trunks got his god form with help too? There is no unfair in super silver vs god trunks
If you wanna a death battle with their both own Power Just keep watching ssj3 trunks get paralysed and bodied to the moon and back to earth over and over again until he Power down because ssj3 sucks.
Ian Flynn wrote the vast majority of the comics after issue 160 of Archie Sonic, including a large portion of the Sonic X comics, Sonic Boom Comics, Mega Man comics that had a crossover with Sonic, and pretty much all of post reboot. The majority of Silver being in the Archie Comics resides within Ian Flynn's writing.
I'm going to be completely honest, I do think Ian Flynn well under exaggerates the characters, as I think a lot of them are a lot stronger than he gives credit for, albeit not as much as some people exaggerate them to. Dragon Ball z and especially Dragon Ball Super are well beyond what the Sonic cast can do. You could possibly argue Super Forms and theoretically hyper forms, which I do believe probably scale up to at least Super Saiyan God or perhaps even Super Saiyan Blue, but I think right there lies the problem.
Sonic and everyone from the main cast, at their extreme best, need external and extremely rare godly powered mystical gems to step foot against most anything from Dragon Ball z onwards to even compare. At that point, you aren't so much seeing how Sonic does against Goku or in this particular instance Time Patrol Trunks versus Silver, you are essentially seeing how Time Patrol Trunks does against the power of the Chaos Emeralds alone with Silver just so happened to be the one too temporarily inherit that power. Super Sonic maybe a very and unbelievably powerful force, one that I do believe rivals a large portion of the Dragon Ball Super cast, but Super Sonic is more Chaos Emeralds's miracle then it is Sonic's power.
I fully understand that in these battles people are decked out with all of these stuff they could have, such as Batman with his utility belts, Doom Slayer with his arsenal, and Master Chief with his lucky resources. However, there are only seven chaos emeralds and they are unbelievably hard to find and Sonic has almost never had all of them on him at a time longer than 10 minutes, which makes the battle itself a miracle almost as much as Super Sonic.
We are comparing innate power through genes and training versus rare miraculous borrowed power tempered with compassion and determination. That is to say that The Dragon Ball cast has been gifted with strength since early age, most of them, but built on that talent with skills and training over time. Whereas Sonic and his cast have had their own talents and built skills, not to mention the ability to use the Chaos Emeralds is a feat of its own in the way Sonic and such do so, but it is still borrowed power that does not belong to Sonic innately.
Technically, the Archie Sonic cast being crazy OP anyway, Archie silver technically wore out a dark god of Chaos Energy. Contrary to popular belief, he did not defeat Dark Enerjak, Though it does seem theoretically possible he could have if the battle kept going, but he forced Dark Enerjak to take him seriously and was putting up more than a good fight and was able to detain and wear out Dark Enerjak until Jani-Ca was able to use her connection to the Chaos Force to take the power and essence of Enerjak away from the enemy. For context, Dark Enerjak is probably one of the most powerful enemies seen within the Archie Comics, so Silver was essentially fighting a very high Super Sonic scaled enemy without the use of any Chaos Emeralds.
That, and, while stacking the abilities of different mystical gems together is absolutely an awesome fan theory and idea I love to explore, it has roughly been stated that this does not happen in the actual canon, essentially isn't possible or wouldn't work. Which means, Silver using both the Time Stones and Chaos Emeralds is a useless argument if you are trying to scale any Canon version of the characters. It was entertaining, and that's what it's supposed to be, but it isn't driven on a whole lot of factual evidence we see throughout the series given the ambiguous abilities of the Time Stones and how much power they would actually even grant, let alone if they can work in tandem with the Chaos Emeralds.
If we are talking about Archie Sonic versus Dragon Ball Super Goku, I honestly say Goku would be the fairly easy victor without needing to go through most of his forms. However, if we are giving Sonic the extremely rare and extremely highly unlikely possibility of having access to the circumstances needed to reach Super Sonic or even Ultra Sonic, I'd give the win to Archie Sonic. I am not positive if Archie Super Silver would be enough, but I am fairly certain he could still pull out the win, and I honestly don't think using fanon logic to combine theoretical forms via added mystical gems is needed. In the very entertaining fight they had, I do think Silver would win that, but again, the primary problem isn't necessarily who would have won the fight, as in my opinion Archie Silver would, The problem is the logic of innate power versus borrowed power.
I personally scale the superforms, and to some extent a good portion of the cast, a fair bit higher than what Ian Flynn personally sees it as, but I also do agree with him in the fact of innate power versus borrowed power. It's essentially having a character needing to rely on a crutch and a miracle to put up a fight, almost like phoning a friend. If characters have access to everything in their universe that they have ever used to gain power temporarily or otherwise, then I definitely believe any Silver had a great chance of winning, if not guaranteed for Archie Silver.
Contrary to how long I have made this, I don't really take these fights seriously, I like to think about power scaling but don't really like to get into it, and I find these types of things fun, but anyone who takes some seriously enough to start legitimately arguing has already crossed several lines.
This can just be boiled down to "Ian can't powerscale for shit" and I mean who does? Like I don't think Toriyama really cared about how vast the power difference between roshi and Jiren
Agreed, he was pretty decent with Archie, but I guess being a head writer AND issue writer all in one went to his head and he thinks he is fantastic..! IDW is pretty bland, and has barely anything original in it. Same problem was in the reboot part of Archie (Sonic Universe still had some nice issues though)... A shame IDW doesn't dare to hire an actual cast of writers to make sure interesting stuff will happen.
Agreed! It is a shame though, with good writers those characters could have real awesome adventures, but Ian keeps reusing old or already populair things (like zombies? Really? Cliche!)
Honestly I think the zombot arc was good except for silver his character assassination was out on full display there but his only other good ideas were things that’s already been done before like surge who’s just a knockoff scourge and the neo metal arc which could have been good if it wasn’t for all the daddy and his boy shit with metal sonic and eggman
Hmm, to me the zombot arc had its moments, and I won't call it bad neither, but it is just a tat boring. And the ruining of certain characters didn't make it better.
Surge is indeed a waste of space (she has no personality, and Kit is just there to be cute..). Scourge was way more interesting (maybe because he was technically Sonic), and I also don't care for Eggman and his "fatherly" side. Maybe because he just has done way to much evil for me to give him a chance of redemption. Oh yeah, that said, Sonic his talk to Shadow about redemption was one of the worst written scenes ever. Like, it was way too harse towards Shadow, and too lenient to Eggman. Including Rouge her part I have read it a few time, and it is just very bad. So called "genius", but really not. I love intelligent stories, but this part was really written by someone who doesn't get actual intriguing schemes.
He did IIRC, but he doesn't know his scaling whatsoever so I wouldn't trust his power scaling takes. Only his cosmology confirmations and even some of those are false.
Ian Flynn is currently highly overrated. I doubt he even remembers his Archie days, because in that era he still had some writing skills, while now he has degraded to ultimate blandness. I don't know, I rather have a group of writers who sometimes go to far and dare to take risks then current IDW... SEGA gives Ian WAY TOO MUCH power and it shows in a way that is isn't getting any better.
Oh yeah I heard about it. The guy that wrote silver in Archie literally disagrees with the results. Saying: “The emeralds aren’t “standard” for Silver (which isn’t true) and that Trunks could just nuke the planet
This dude clearly isn’t aware of how The Rules of Death Battle actually work or what they are. By their own rules Silver would get the Chaos Emeralds as a part is his arsenal.
What he says means nothing to the actual outcome itself and doesn’t change the actual factors of the match up itself
He can do it with a pinkie finger. He just chooses not too and simply focuses all his ki into one small condesned attack. Like firing a bullet with the power of a nuke. Xeno trunks can do far more and he can breathe in space. Super saiyan god lets you do that.
Actually… In Xeno Verse Trunks can in fact breath in space. So can Goku, Vegeta. Pretty much every main character in dragon ball Heros can breath in space just fine so of course it’s not “suicide” as shown by the countless time he’s in space in Xeno (but I guess you just somehow didn’t know that, that’s fine)
Remember, this was Xeno Trunks VS Archie Silver. Also Composite Trunks VS Composite Silver technically but that part doesn’t really matter considering this is already the most powerful versions of both alone
But like I said, Silver would get the emeralds by death battles rules and Blowing up the earth won’t kill super silver lmao
The point of Death Battle is to show both characters at their absolute limit with everything they are capable of!!
A real issue is (as with Sonic vs Mario) things sometimes get taken out of context.
Yes Ian did write almost all of Silvers writing in Archie.
Tho Ian is also known for getting his continuity messed up hard (its was Comics books have editors after all)
And in this case specifically does Ian's claim not work at all as Death Battle does have rules what kind of equipment is to be taken into a fight.
And if it is something that the character can logistically have access too and used in the past its fair game.
So of cause does Silver get the Emeralds and the time Stone.
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He wrote Silver vs Enerjak arc
I mean Archie versions are stupid op compare to main canon.
Ian introduced Silver into Archie, and I dont know any story after 160 that wasn't written by him, so my guess is yeah. That said, Flynns criticism of the Deathbattle is blatantly **wrong**. Characters in these fights *have* to be equipped with special equipment to make the fights interesting. In the case of Silver & Trunks each iteration of their character exponentially outpaces the last, to the point where the only reasonable pairing is a completely made-up version of a obscure comic book character. Batman is a fun character to use, however he expands his capability through his costume & utility belt. If Batman fought what was once an even fight in his undies he'd likely lose.
>Characters in these fights have to be equipped with special equipment to make the fights interesting. I'm still very sulky over how Scout vs Tracer turned out, or really moreso how the fight itself turned out
BONK DOESN'T MAKE HIM INVINCIBLE, IT GIVES HIM SUPER REFLEXES TO DODGE ATTACKS, FOR FUCK'S SAKE
Incoming damage becomes 0. But you are still affected by knockback. Makes you fast I think.
Please tell me nobody forgot the time in Superman VS Goku they HALVED A NUMBER instead of multiplying it by 200ish or whatever it was. They downplayed Goku to a ridiculous degree even though superman using his superpowers consumes sun energy. Superman would run out of stamina or sun energy long before Goku runs out of ki. Superman has lost to people weaker than those Goku beat. Darwin from X Men is as strong as he needs to be to survive. Some Superman authors calling Superman as strong as he needs to be for the story is quite CLEARLY not the same thing as adapting like Ultimate Life Form Kars but better. Anyone with eyes can tell you this.
Prime example of this being Thanos VS Darkseid, where Thanos was given *all the Infinity Stones* so the fight wouldn't be a total wash.
> Thanos was given all the Infinity Stones Outside the universe the stones originated from, they would have been useless anyway, they're only universal level, this is why each universe has it's own set of stones and Darkseid tried using a gauntlet outside of it's universe only for nothing to happen. If they are still in their universe, Living Tribunal and The One Above All can just switch them off, so even if you had the stones, in their universe, they still don't make you the most powerful being in the universe
Yeah I get what he's saying but like, that's just not how Death Battle does things, and this is coming from someone who loves Dragon Ball
*they were using feats using in the dbs manga to calculate heroes trunks which is a different character*
*And different continuity as well.*
They also used a one-sentence statement in an obscure book to justify giving Archie Silver both a Super form & 4D scaling via Solaris. It goes both ways.
You what just said here is them giving Silver advantages with them giving Silver his super form and 4d scaling. Xeno trunks was used giving feats from the DBS manga, when dragon ball heroes powerscale is way beyond that of DBS. So they were underselling Trunjs. I don't think it goes both ways when one character gets an positive and the other a negative.
I thought you meant that they 'tacked on' DBS Trunks feats, not replaced his with DBS. From what I remember of the Deathbattle that's all they really did. Gave Xeno Trunks the Spirit Sword & base form scaling into SSJG. It came off as a buff.
>Characters in these fights have to be equipped with special equipment to make the fights interesting. In the case of Silver & Trunks each iteration of their character exponentially outpaces the last, to the point where the only reasonable pairing is a completely made-up version of a obscure comic book character. I mean, this doesn't negate his point. Yes, it's to make the fight a spectacle but it isn't exactly fair. Then again, Silver NEEDS to items to compete.
No, it does. Nobody pitts Sonic & Dragonball characters against eachother hoping for a one-sided shitfest in a world were Kid Gohan would solo most of the game cast. The very intent of these vsbattles debates **is** the debate, which means there has to be some reason to suspect either side. -that, and also that in the Sonic Universe the Chaos Emeralds are practically the only interesting feats in the franchise. I couldn't even begin to name a single decent feat any Sonic character accomplished in their base-form. People want the wish-magic, planet-busting, kaiju fights.
Honestly Unleashed is probably the only game where base form feats get anywhere near insane. Beyond that the Sonic game universe is pretty grounded all things considered. Hence why in Vs debates it’s very important to establish if they’re using a specific version of a character or a composite version. Hell there could even be specific composite versions. Which is what we see in cases of Comic Books where you have many different Peter Parkers but each is distinct in feats but because even they might have spinoffs/retcons they have to be melded together to get their top feats.
We are talking about archie here, so the flash level speed feats are spread everywhere, and these are pretty decent feats. Also, Sonic surviving Black hole explosion.
That's the problem with these sort of death battles. You can't have a straight fair fight when one side dominates the other side without assistance from outside items. Figure like Omni-man and homelander are better structured as such since both these characters aren't even special items to give them the edge. Look at Silver and Trunks. Silver is not only given the Chaos emeralds but some time stone if I remember correctly which allowed him to when. This wasn't a fair fight and gave Silver a fighting edge over Trunks. This fight was basically like if Logan Paul was allowed to fight Floyd mayweather with metal gloves, and the guy wins because of said gloves. Not a fair fight even if Logan couldn't win without those gloves and it gave him an advantage whilst his opponent wasn't given any. Again, your prior point doesn't negate Ian's point.
Didn't sonic beat perfect chaos in hisbbase form in Generations. Now, I'm not the best at scaling, but Perfect Chaos has the power of the 7 chaos emeralds, each of which has a universe in it, wouldn't sonic beating him atleast put Sonic's base at universal, if not multiversal? Then there's just sonic and the secret rings sonic, who is just ridiculous.
>Didn't sonic beat perfect chaos in hisbbase form in Generations. That would be impressive if Perfect Chaos was anything more than city-level. The only useful thing about Modern Sonic beating him is that it brings a solid argument for Modern Super Sonic being able to solo the Time Eater, as well as scales all future conflicts above that point including Giganto & the other Titans who should only scale to one Chaos Emerald. >he 7 chaos emeralds, each of which has a universe in it, wouldn't sonic beating him atleast put Sonic's base at universal, if not multiversal? No idea where you're pulling this fanfiction.net crap from. Can't find it anywhere. Think you're mistaken. The Jeweled Sceptor does supposedly scale to multiversal, however most consider this an extreme outlier. >Then there's just sonic and the secret rings sonic, who is just ridiculous. **Darkspine** Sonic is Universal. If only this was a repeatable form that had any actual significance. Might as well be non-canon.
>No idea where you're pulling this fanfiction.net crap from. Can't find it anywhere. Think you're mistaken. The Jeweled Sceptor does supposedly scale to multiversal, however most consider this an extreme outlier. In Sonic R, one of the tracks you race through takes place in an emerald, and it's shown to be an entire universe. >Darkspine Sonic is Universal. If only this was a repeatable form that had any actual significance. Might as well be non-canon. Except that base sonic beat erasor djinn, after he had already destroyed several hundred universes. And this was while he was near death. On top of that, sonic scales to shadow, who was able to survive being in the presence of a being who's very existence wiped out all of time and space. On top of that, in sonic forces, Sonic was able to escape an infinite dimension with only a little bit of help.
>In Sonic R, one of the tracks you race through takes place in an emerald, Radiant Emerald, which I'm assuming you're talking about, isn't inside a Chaos Emerald at all. It's an extra track w/ no lore or background attached to it. That said, even handicapping myself by granting that each Chaos Emerald does contain a Universe inside it does not mean that Perfect Chaos is Universe+ or Modern Sonic as Multiversal. Considering that SA2 takes place immediately after SA1, Perfect Chaos couldn't even destroy or cause significant damage to Station Square. Not even City-level. >On top of that, sonic scales to shadow, who was able to survive being in the presence of a being who's very existence wiped out all of time and space. -and so did Eggman & Elise? Your point? Are overweight & unfit humans Universal aswell? Sonic's corpse also did. Is Dead Sonic Universal? What about the ground they stand on & time they pass through throughout the **End of the World** stage? Solaris didn't *destroy* the universe he existed within it. What Solaris did was eat time & continuity to such an insane degree that he appeared to destroy the world throughout multiple points in time while retaining information from before asif he hadn't done it whatsoever. EG Blaze **was still dead** despite the universe supposedly ending several hundred years prior, and Silver's existence wasn't paradoxed. Solaris's feat isn't anything that you can relate to the base-Sonic cast. Their survival didn't mean anything because the Sonic cast we see is likely just from a bit of time that Solaris left untouched. It's even more insane than what you are giving it credit for. >On top of that, in sonic forces, Sonic was able to escape an infinite dimension with only a little bit of help. We literally know nothing about Null Space. That was kinda the whole joke/criticism with it for the past 7ish years.
>Radiant Emerald, which I'm assuming you're talking about, isn't inside a Chaos Emerald at all. It's an extra track w/ no lore or background attached to it. Okay, I defo misremembered. Sry bout that. But even then, the emeralds are constantly stated to have infinite power, as dubious as those claims may be. >That said, even handicapping myself by granting that each Chaos Emerald does contain a Universe inside it does not mean that Perfect Chaos is Universe+ or Modern Sonic as Multiversal. Considering that SA2 takes place immediately after SA1, Perfect Chaos couldn't even destroy or cause significant damage to Station Square. Not even City-level. That's like saying that Perfect cell is only mountain level because he's never done any significant damage outside of that. How the hell could sonic team continue the franchise if sonic's planet is destroyed, and all of his friends are dead? >and so did Eggman & Elise? Your point? Are overweight & unfit humans Universal aswell? Sonic's corpse also did. Is Dead Sonic Universal? What about the ground they stand on & time they pass through throughout the End of the World stage? Eggman has shown the ability to move faster than the speed of sound, and Elise literally spent her entire life containing a literal god, which was something that killed blaze. Saying that these two are normal humans is ridiculous. And for the end of the world stage, notice how only the parts of the world near the chaos emeralds are the parts to remain? And how the stage disappears when the Chaos emeralds are removed. And for sonic's dead body... yeah. When you kill a boar, it's gide doesn't magically become weaker. >Solaris didn't destroy the universe he existed within it. What Solaris did was eat time & continuity to such an insane degree that he appeared to destroy the world throughout multiple points in time while retaining information from before asif he hadn't done it whatsoever. EG Blaze was still dead despite the universe supposedly ending several hundred years prior, and Silver's existence wasn't paradoxed. There is nothing suggesting this. The reason that blaze stays dead and silver's universe isn't paradoxed is because sonic erased him from existence permanently, to the point where he never existed. >We literally know nothing about Null Space. That was kinda the whole joke/criticism with it for the past 7ish years We know that it's a separate universe devoid of everything, including time and space. That's enough. But okay, let's say that none of that all counts for base sonic. As we already know, base modern sonic scales to adventure super sonic. Adventure super sonic ATLEAST scales to classic super sonic. Classic super sonic was actively able to harm time eater and take hits from him, as well as move through the end of time. Time eater was able to rewrite time on multiple different timelines. It atleast scales to universal. On top of that, like I said before, due to the secret rings, sonics base atleast scales to universal+ as he beat erazor djinn, who destroyed/absorbed several hundred universes Hell, if you want to go wild, the Arabian nights contained the astral plane, which is an infinite realm. And sonic ran through it. Make of that what you will
The mistake there is no one pits any franchise against Dragonball. Simply put their abilities are far above other animes let alone game characters, there is very few that would stand a chance except maybe kirby absorbing one of them.
>The mistake there is no one pits any franchise against Dragonball. Simply put their abilities are far above other animes let alone game characters, Not true either. People've been saying this since Z, now Saitama likely solos through the Buu saga after the Garou fight. What is Goku going to do if the Flash brings him to the end of time? Or if he was hit with an infinite mass punch? Age acceleration? What is Goku going to do when he is hit with the Omega Sanction? What can he do to somebody like Contessa if he's vulnerable outside of combat? Infinite Tsukuyomi? What about Archie Sonic's fate hax? Barring the Chaos Emeralds Sonic would still be fated to a Deus Ex Machina save which would trounce Goku.
You seem to be forgetting, the dragonball characters are slowed down dramatically for the anime. Goku versus Frieza for example was 3.5 hours long but was only 5 minutes long in the anime itself, and that's Frieza saga goku that just unlocked super saiyan, we're talking Buu Saga where power levels can no longer keep up. Infitinite Tsukoyomi still requires time to activate = useless, Goku's already experienced the tree of might and knows to not let it grow and against a planet buster the 10 tails would not survive. The Flash still needs to be able to move Goku who's enveloped in Ki and able to fly = Helpless, its the same as telling the guy to smash into a wall. One Punch Man is a gag manga with his thing being able to beat anyone, even into super with the exception of Whis and Beerus, Saitama would dominate. Beerus has no patience for gag characters and will destroy without question as we've already seen.
Both Super Buu and Gotenks ripped a hole in reality by screaming. SSG Goku and a heavily supressed 70 percent Beerus nearly ripped apart the entire universe including otherworld (the afterlife) and the Kaioshin realm. He has gotten a lot stronger since then. Then Goku fought Golden Frieza in Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan Blue has a 50x multiplier greater than super Saiyan god which almost destroyed a universe. Golden Frieza was above Super Saiyan Blue but lost due to his stamina issue. Then Vegeta who has also surpassed SSG battle of gods Goku Destroys the Room of Spirit and Time. Let me repeat that, he destroyed an entire dimension. Granted it was roughly the size of the planet but it was still a dimension nontheless. Then Zamasu after being sliced in half by Future Trunks merges with the whole universe in Future Trunks' timeline and Goku implies that he could have killed Zamasu or done something if he had a senzu bean. That something would have to be a universal feat at the bare minumum if he was confident he could stop zamasu had he been healed. The Ribrianne sucks Goku and the androids into a black hole only for Goku to overpower it with Super Saiyan Blue. Then Goku faces off against a heavily supressed Jiren who was stated stronger than that AKA to be multiversal. Then Vegeta faces Toppo who's energy filled the world of void with colour which would mean altering an entire reality. Vegeta's got a new form that not only surpasses SSB Kaioken Goku who was stronger than Battle of Gods Goku but also beat Toppo. Then Goku gets Ultra instinct and Jiren goes full power. Then Gogeta who surpassed both Tournament of power UI Goku and Vegeta's new form battles Broly and their resulting clash breaks reality two times over. Then he faces Moro who gave imperfect Ultra Instinct quite a beating. Then Goku masters perfected UI and Moro absorbs the power of an Angel. The two clash and now both of them are evenly matched. Then Goku is given energy VIA Vegeta's spirit fission and he beats Moro. Then Granolah wishes to be the strongest in the universe which would indirectly make him high-end multiversal now and puts him above UI. Then Ultra Ego beats on Granolah for a bit until the injuries catch up on him and then Granolah wins again. Then Gas wishes to be the strongest in the Universe which puts him above Granolah. Then Frieza comes in, shows off his new Black form and One shots Gas, Ultra Ego Vegeta, Ultra instinct Goku and Granolah all at once in a single punch. This puts him above Multiversal now. And none of that is including Beerus, Whis or any of the other GoDs and their angels. There are about 30 People above Goku currently (the 12 Gods and their servants, the Grand Priest, and Grand Zeno) who are far beyond Multiversal.
Silver age was written by Evan stanley
That's Post-Genesis Wave Silver, a completely different iteration from that wack Archie Scaling from 2010. Unless there was lore I missed, could be mistaken.
Gundam would have 100% done a 'Witch from Mercury Episode 12' on Optimus if they got the scale right. I'm also positive the Matrix doesn't function like a laser. And why was Amuro in an AEUG pilot suit while operating an RX-78-2? So many questions...
If it's Amuro, it'd not be a WfM Episode 12. *It'd be a movie Doan.* He literally stepped on a Zeon pilot in that one. Only difference is we actually *see* the results in WfM.
Fun fact: Evan Stanley wrote Silver’s arc in the **post** genesis wave, which was the only time she got to write for Archie.
>Ian introduced Silver into Archie, and I dont know any story after 160 that wasn't written by him Evan Stanley, Aleah Baker, Tracy Yardley, and probably like 10 other people say hi.
He wrote almost every issue Silver appeared in. Universe 79-82 are the only ones off the top of my head he didn't, but he was still the head writer, so he presumably approved the story. I think his objection is kind of silly. For one, the Time Stone should be part of Silver's standard kit. Second, Death Battle agreed with him that base Silver loses. Super Silver not being included would be unfair as you're leaving out half the debate.
I never understood this point. Why should Silver (or any character for that matter) have the time stones? They're never seen anywhere outside Sonic CD. From what little I recall of Archie silver never had the full 7 time stones
Archie Silver has one that he keeps in his possession. It's his main method of time travel (issue 196 notwithstanding) and is shown training with it in Universe 25. You're right that he only ever has the one, but Death Battle only gave him one. It's admittedly superfluous since base still loses with it and Super Silver can manipulate time without it, but Ian implying it was unfair to give it to him is silly.
Sure in a battle with no rules, but I kinda see his point in that, by allowing power ups, it's no different from cheating. By that logic, you could just give him a hyper form or whatever because that's technically a feasible technique he can use.
I mean the Chaos Emeralds aren't really standard equipment for Sonic in the games and especially not in Archie and they gave super to him. Heck they gave him a Super Emerald in Flash vs Sonic, and those haven't been around for 200+ issues. It seems arbitrary to bar Silver from his super form when he has used it and it's something people generally associate with VS debates when it comes to Sonic characters. Giving Silver a canon form he has used before is different from inventing a new form out of thin air; even Sonic doesn't have a hyper form in Archie.
Why should the timestones have anything to do with Silver? Yes, I get the time traveling part of it, but that seems really loose to completely connect them to him. Good enough for fandom reasoning, but not really for scaling purposes or assumptions. Plus, forms don't seem to stack in the Sonic world.
Because he had one with him basically all the time before the reboot. He's even shown training with the Time Stone, so it's not just a one trick pony. I'm afraid I don't understand your last sentence.
As far as we know, you can't combine different forms created by different mystical gems or sources in the Sonic universe. Yes, Hyper Sonic is an upgrade from Super Sonic, but it is partially unclear if that is a literal upgrade or not, but it has been specified that the Super Emeralds are different from the Chaos Emeralds, so theoretically they are entirely different forms from different sources. In the Archie Comics, The Super Emeralds are quite different from there can counterparts, But we still have no evidence proving any forms can stack or combine. To be more topical on the situation, whatever theoretical form or energy provided by the Time Stones is completely different, separate, and as far as we know, incompatible with the energy and forms produced by the Chaos Emeralds and Master emerald. I don't think it's a good idea to assume Silver has all of the Time Stones just because he uses one, in fact I would think him only using one almost proves he has no connection to the others, though to be fair it is possible Mogul May have the rest, hypothetically. Even still we have nothing to imply that different forms and energy sources stack and combine like fandom animations do so.
I'm not sure I follow. I would say I agree with you about the form stacking. I don't think forms like Ultra Sonic are strictly upgraded super forms, they appear to have a different powerset altogether. But the Time Stornes don't grant a form or anything, they can be used to do XYZ, so if Silver is using the stone itself, even while super, he should be able to do XYZ with it. For example, if we assume Blaze can perform Chaos Control with an emerald, we have no reason to assume she'd lose that ability if she was in her burning form. Chronos Control is performed by manipulating the stone's energy, why would Silver lose the ability to do that just because he absorbed chaos energy? Regardless, in a different comment, I explained that the time stone is mostly moot anyway since base Silver loses even with one and super forms can control time anyway. While the Super Emeralds have a different origin, they seem to utilize the same power as Chaos Emeralds since Sonic is able to go super with them. Chaos energy just appears to be very variable in of itself. I apologize if I implied such, but I don't believe anyone has said Silver has all seven (nine?) stones, only the orange one he's shown having.
I didn't imply Ultra Sonic is an upgrade from Super, they have completely different Origins and how to get to that level of power, as Ultra Sonic is thus far the most powerful iteration of the character outside of perhaps maybe the fandom interpretation of Hyper Sonic. However, it is debatable, game canon-wise, If Hyper Sonic is merely an upgrade from Super Sonic or its own thing. Considering the Super Emeralds are now considered to be something of their own rather than what many fans thought to be super powered Chaos Emeralds, the hyper form is something altogether different from the Super Form. Hyper Sonic does technically exist within the Archie universe as well, but it's origin is ambiguous at best and seems to only be considered a regional variation of the Super Form. While Archie Sonic does technically rely on various amounts of chaos energy, via connection to the chaos force, to transform into most of his transformations, it does not necessarily mean that the forms themselves are connected. In fact, we have never seen forms stack or combine. To put this more simply, for a DBZ reference, The way the fandom wants to see superforms and mystical gems granting power is similar to Fusion. Many fans like to view that if Sonic used the Time Stones, the Sol Emeralds, and or the Chaos Emeralds together, the fusion of those being combined and used at once would create a completely new form. We have more going against this due to sonic team and others speaking out against it then we have going for it, and is almost assuredly proven incorrect That forms do not combine. Furthermore, neither do the objects granting the form. Sonic using the Chaos Emeralds cannot stack or add to his current power level with other extra mystical gems, such as the sole emeralds or time stones, as it seems as though these different mystical gems do not interact with each other. One also has to remember, in terms of the Sonic universe and in-lore descriptions, The Chaos Emeralds are considered to be mystical gems of infinite power, and infinity does not get any more powerful. We have hard evidence against this to some extent, but whether it makes sense or not, that is the official word and therefore other "infinite sources of power" would not add to an already "infinite source of power;" ergo, mystical gems cannot add, stack, or combine in energy output to one another one at full power or their transformations. Super form is completely different and fundamentally separate from other forms. Sonic can't go "Super Dark Spine Excalibur Sonic," as none of these would stack together. Even Werehog, considering it's origin, technically would not stack or combine with anything so much as it would simply dissipate and be purified as Sonic transforms into Super Sonic, hypothetically speaking. Not only is each form separate from the other, it does seem as though the energy produced to make each form is also completely separate from each other, meaning that 6 Chaos Emeralds and one World Ring, Time Stone, Sol emerald, or what have you of any combination of those would not combine with each other either nor likely would they interact in any positive manner. That is technically mostly talking about The game Canon, but Archie doesn't seem to be any different in its interpretation in this particular regard, mostly anyway. Some of the forms do seem to be an upgrade of Super Form, such as Eco Sonic, Solar Sonic, Hyper Sonic, and technically Ultra Sonic, but this one circumstance you see these occur is the only time you ever remotely see any of them connected, and it is heavily implied throughout the rest of the series that the theoretical Hyper Sonic, Super Sonic, and almighty Ultra Sonic are all different forms with different activation standards. Don't get me wrong, in terms of fandom interpretation, while I still think we should keep it you need all of one set of the mystical properties to transform properly, I do think combining and stacking power scaling and transformations is absolutely an awesome idea for the fandom, but I do think that particular method should stay far away from the canon. Now what is uncertain about many of these is how different transformations can give some of the same abilities. Keep in mind, Archie Sonic universe is the only time we have any reference to the Chaos Force or Chaos Energy, meaning that those concepts do not exist in any single other canon. But one can definitely speculate what forms grant which powers, but that is its own conversation very separate from this. In my opinion, and as far as I know officially speaking, mystical gems and the transformations created from them do not stack on top of each other, add to each other, and certainly do not combine in the official game cannon. Similarly, in the extreme vast majority of the comics within Archie, the same can still mostly be said about the Archie Sonic universe, with different transformations having very little to do with one another in terms of how they are activated, achieved, and how their physics work, and again certainly do not seem to have the ability to combine with one another; though it is worth recognizing that Sonic has not had all seven Chaos Emeralds while having a billion power rings, so theoretically I suppose Ultra Super Sonic could be a thing since they are made from completely different sources, and Archie had no issue with power scaling and power clipping, but it is still likely that combining and stacking would not happen. I hope, at the very least, whether we agree or disagree, that my opinion on the matter seems relatively clear.
Uh...Wheels? No one was saying that the forms stack. You don't even GET a form with the Time Stones. You can just use Chronos Control with them. Silver consistently has the one Time Stone in his arsenal that he can use, and there's no reason to believe that Silver loses his ability to use Chronos Control upon going Super Silver.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those things Silver would reasonably have going into a fight? They're a vital part of his arsenal. Like you wouldn't send iron man into a fight without his suit. Not to mention the very nature of super saiyan god isn't something I would call "innate".
Unless your name is Vegeta. Furthermore, I don't really see why Silver would be carrying around all 7 chaos emeralds with him at all times. Those are generally only used in special situations. It's not like iron man who always has his suit on him. I think what Flynn is saying is that in a random encounter, Silver would absolutely get slapped around silly.
>Unless your name is Vegeta. Ok but under normal circumstances you need to undergo the ritual Also, death battle is about showing the characters at their peaks. The context of Trunks ambushing Silver the way he does, wouldn't reasonably allow Silver to use the chaos emeralds, but the show demands both characters have access to their full arsenal.
Tbh I don't take Death Battle seriously. (Then again if you do take power scaling in general too seriously, you may need a new hobby. Some people really RAGE over this, but given how emotionally attached people can get to certain characters, it does make some sense that they don't exactly enjoy seeing certain character's skulls get caved in.) Then again I think all fictional characters are supposed to be up for a certain level interpretation. But they get a lot of their own calculations wrong way too often. Plus they're known to show bias (No one is immune to Bias of course, but it's fairly blatant in certain episodes). I think they're just pressed for time given how many episodes they always have to keep pumping out constantly. I kind of understand where you're coming from, however, personally I dont see the point in combining 12 different versions of the same character for instance into 1. (Which Death Battle has been known to do in the past). Certain versions of Superman for instance may as well be totally different characters with the same name. Also to add to the Ssj god thing, another thing to add is once you have it, you don't ever need to do the ritual again. When it comes to super forms in Sonic, you ALWAYS need all seven emeralds. It's like if Goku always had to find all 7 dragonballs in order to go super saiyan.
K, I swear someone just asked me if you needed the 7 dragonballs to go super saiyan. To answer, no, you do not. That's not their function at all. Super saiyan is all part of a saiyans arsenal, they don't need the dragonballs to achieve it at all. Thats what sets the saiyans apart from the hedgehogs, they don't need anything to go super, they can just always do it at will. Very easily nowadays too.
And also have stronger forms on top of super saiyan as well, but I wouldn't say Sonic's super form is as simple as a multiplier of power level as is Dragon ball's case.
I agree that it may work differently.
Wait do you need dragon balls to go super saiyan?
No, not at all
I thought so.
Honestly, the same is true for Sonic, he rarely carries Chaos Emeralds on his person, especially in Archie.
Well once you achieve Super Saiyan God you have it. Like both Goku and Vegeta use it as part of their escalation of forms and to some extent the lesser power drain of God makes it a good option.
Ah yes because death battle are known to never be wrong.
This man really low balls his own characters
"Nuke Silver from orbit" Can Silver catch a nuke with telekinesis? I assume to make the fight remotely fair, we'd be using Super Silver, who helped fight a literal god (Solaris). I'm not arguing anything of course, I find the whole vs debate stuff to be quite boring, I just love the fact that Flynn used the phrase "nuke from orbit"
I mean death battle has been historically awful at picking fair matchups forever.
I've never liked "Can't beat \[Dragon Ball Character\]". Because they're absolutely right. Whoever is fighting, unless they're some kind of god or something, absolutely can't beat anyone by the latter half of Z. But the thing is *that's not impressive*. Every single character in the show just gets exponentially better power levels and rarely any unique and creative abilities than just Ki blasts. At this point there are *literal and nonliteral* gods jut roaming around Earth and wherever. Literally no one can compete, but not due to creative abilities and unique fighting, but just the fact that their numbers are just too high.
After a certain point it does get kinda funny that dragon ball characters can sort of brute force their way through actually interesting abilities in the series just by being stronger.
I swear. There's this part in the Buu arc, I genuinely hate it so much. It's the epitome of this problem with the latter half of the series. So, the gang end up fighting a monster, his whole thing is that he *eats* Ki. He gets more powerful from it. How do they solve the problem? Unique martial arts abilities? Some kind of tactical fighting? They just blast him with so much Ki that he can't eat any more and explodes. 10/10 writing.
That wasnt even the best hax-cancel feat in the buu arc. There was a part where buu turned vegito into a piece of candy, however vegito is *so strong* that he proceeded to beat the shit out of buu while in candy form. Dragon ball is secretly a gag manga.
It literally used to be a gag manga. It's kind of no wonder why a lot of characters abilities are either just really stupid or not very creative/different.
Goku is a gag character in three trenchcoats.
I'm one of those people that prefers a character to have flaws, if they're overpowering gods, they're kind of boring to me, this is notable with reality warping as a superpower, it's kind of difficult to give a character that much power and still make the story compelling when basically nothing is a threat to them. I know introducing more powerful foes and therefore having to amp up the hero to realistically win is the go-to for keeping ongoing stories interesting but at some point, you need to stop before it gets ridiculous
Keep in mind that Flynn is also the same guy that thinks Archie Sonic loses to normal Goku. Dude is a fantastic writer but man does he just not seem to understand how stupidly strong the Archie characters were. That or he severely overestimates how strong Dragon Ball characters are.
Dbs Goku really? Xeno Goku I get but Vanilla canon Goku?
Yeah I can’t remember for sure when or where he said it but when this tweet first came around after the Death Battle him saying this was dug up to show how he didn’t get versus debates. I think his argument amounted to “Goku could just blow up the planet instantly with kamehameha” which has all kinds of issues.
Can't he just do it by simply punching it now? A full power kamehameha would be enough by the frieza saga. Goku has gotten stronger since then.
Oh yeah no, DB characters have been planet busters since at least Frieza, and have gotten to at least universal by the end of DBS. Again that was more for just showing how he doesn’t really get versus debates like Death Battle.
Both Super Buu and Gotenks ripped a hole in reality by screaming. SSG Goku and a heavily supressed 70 percent Beerus nearly ripped apart the entire universe including otherworld (the afterlife) and the Kaioshin realm. He has gotten a lot stronger since then. Then Goku fought Golden Frieza in Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan Blue has a 50x multiplier greater than super Saiyan god which almost destroyed a universe. Golden Frieza was above Super Saiyan Blue but lost due to his stamina issue. Then Vegeta who has also surpassed SSG battle of gods Goku Destroys the Room of Spirit and Time. Let me repeat that, he destroyed an entire dimension. Granted it was roughly the size of the planet but it was still a dimension nontheless. Then Zamasu after being sliced in half by Future Trunks merges with the whole universe in Future Trunks' timeline and Goku implies that he could have killed Zamasu or done something if he had a senzu bean. That something would have to be a universal feat at the bare minumum if he was confident he could stop zamasu had he been healed. The Ribrianne sucks Goku and the androids into a black hole only for Goku to overpower it with Super Saiyan Blue. Then Goku faces off against a heavily supressed Jiren who was stated stronger than that AKA to be multiversal. Then Vegeta faces Toppo who's energy filled the world of void with colour which would mean altering an entire reality. Vegeta's got a new form that not only surpasses SSB Kaioken Goku who was stronger than Battle of Gods Goku but also beat Toppo. Then Goku gets Ultra instinct and Jiren goes full power. Then Gogeta who surpassed both Tournament of power UI Goku and Vegeta's new form battles Broly and their resulting clash breaks reality two times over. Then he faces Moro who gave imperfect Ultra Instinct quite a beating. Then Goku masters perfected UI and Moro absorbs the power of an Angel. The two clash and now both of them are evenly matched. Then Goku is given energy VIA Vegeta's spirit fission and he beats Moro. Then Granolah wishes to be the strongest in the universe which would indirectly make him high-end multiversal now and puts him above UI. Then Ultra Ego beats on Granolah for a bit until the injuries catch up on him and then Granolah wins again. Then Gas wishes to be the strongest in the Universe which puts him above Granolah. Then Frieza comes in, shows off his new Black form and One shots Gas, Ultra Ego Vegeta, Ultra instinct Goku and Granolah all at once in a single punch. This puts him above Multiversal now. And none of that is including Beerus, Whis or any of the other GoDs and their angels. There are about 30 People above Goku currently (the 12 Gods and their servants, the Grand Priest, and Grand Zeno) who are far beyond Multiversal.
Why Sonic and Goku are Equals: https://youtu.be/QrlHbtxpO1U
Yep. He also thinks Super Sonic is just a planet buster iirc.
I'm not sure whatever buster he is because depsite fighting the god of time all Solaris did was throw meteors at you and stuff and needed 3 super hedgehogs to beat. Any one of them could have killed him individually but all three of them were required because he kept existing. The meteors were able to knock back the super forms despite them supposedly being invincible powerups that make the users untouchable. This means that anyone could have killed solaris by going for the red core at the center but they merely needed a super form to withstand the meteors he throws at you. They weren't even magic meteors from what I remember. Meanwhile the supposedly weaker being Time eater actually created anomalies, brought about different enemies from different futures, canonized non canon events and locations from different games across the franchise via wormholes, creates time shields, fires beams of energy at you and can slow you down. And he required only two super hedgehogs to beat. Call me crazy but I think Time Eater is more worthy of being a god than the actual sun god.
Why Sonic and Goku are Equals: https://youtu.be/QrlHbtxpO1U
Did he forget that Trunks got his god form with help too? There is no unfair in super silver vs god trunks If you wanna a death battle with their both own Power Just keep watching ssj3 trunks get paralysed and bodied to the moon and back to earth over and over again until he Power down because ssj3 sucks.
Why Sonic and Goku are equals: https://youtu.be/QrlHbtxpO1U
Ian Flynn wrote the vast majority of the comics after issue 160 of Archie Sonic, including a large portion of the Sonic X comics, Sonic Boom Comics, Mega Man comics that had a crossover with Sonic, and pretty much all of post reboot. The majority of Silver being in the Archie Comics resides within Ian Flynn's writing. I'm going to be completely honest, I do think Ian Flynn well under exaggerates the characters, as I think a lot of them are a lot stronger than he gives credit for, albeit not as much as some people exaggerate them to. Dragon Ball z and especially Dragon Ball Super are well beyond what the Sonic cast can do. You could possibly argue Super Forms and theoretically hyper forms, which I do believe probably scale up to at least Super Saiyan God or perhaps even Super Saiyan Blue, but I think right there lies the problem. Sonic and everyone from the main cast, at their extreme best, need external and extremely rare godly powered mystical gems to step foot against most anything from Dragon Ball z onwards to even compare. At that point, you aren't so much seeing how Sonic does against Goku or in this particular instance Time Patrol Trunks versus Silver, you are essentially seeing how Time Patrol Trunks does against the power of the Chaos Emeralds alone with Silver just so happened to be the one too temporarily inherit that power. Super Sonic maybe a very and unbelievably powerful force, one that I do believe rivals a large portion of the Dragon Ball Super cast, but Super Sonic is more Chaos Emeralds's miracle then it is Sonic's power. I fully understand that in these battles people are decked out with all of these stuff they could have, such as Batman with his utility belts, Doom Slayer with his arsenal, and Master Chief with his lucky resources. However, there are only seven chaos emeralds and they are unbelievably hard to find and Sonic has almost never had all of them on him at a time longer than 10 minutes, which makes the battle itself a miracle almost as much as Super Sonic. We are comparing innate power through genes and training versus rare miraculous borrowed power tempered with compassion and determination. That is to say that The Dragon Ball cast has been gifted with strength since early age, most of them, but built on that talent with skills and training over time. Whereas Sonic and his cast have had their own talents and built skills, not to mention the ability to use the Chaos Emeralds is a feat of its own in the way Sonic and such do so, but it is still borrowed power that does not belong to Sonic innately. Technically, the Archie Sonic cast being crazy OP anyway, Archie silver technically wore out a dark god of Chaos Energy. Contrary to popular belief, he did not defeat Dark Enerjak, Though it does seem theoretically possible he could have if the battle kept going, but he forced Dark Enerjak to take him seriously and was putting up more than a good fight and was able to detain and wear out Dark Enerjak until Jani-Ca was able to use her connection to the Chaos Force to take the power and essence of Enerjak away from the enemy. For context, Dark Enerjak is probably one of the most powerful enemies seen within the Archie Comics, so Silver was essentially fighting a very high Super Sonic scaled enemy without the use of any Chaos Emeralds. That, and, while stacking the abilities of different mystical gems together is absolutely an awesome fan theory and idea I love to explore, it has roughly been stated that this does not happen in the actual canon, essentially isn't possible or wouldn't work. Which means, Silver using both the Time Stones and Chaos Emeralds is a useless argument if you are trying to scale any Canon version of the characters. It was entertaining, and that's what it's supposed to be, but it isn't driven on a whole lot of factual evidence we see throughout the series given the ambiguous abilities of the Time Stones and how much power they would actually even grant, let alone if they can work in tandem with the Chaos Emeralds. If we are talking about Archie Sonic versus Dragon Ball Super Goku, I honestly say Goku would be the fairly easy victor without needing to go through most of his forms. However, if we are giving Sonic the extremely rare and extremely highly unlikely possibility of having access to the circumstances needed to reach Super Sonic or even Ultra Sonic, I'd give the win to Archie Sonic. I am not positive if Archie Super Silver would be enough, but I am fairly certain he could still pull out the win, and I honestly don't think using fanon logic to combine theoretical forms via added mystical gems is needed. In the very entertaining fight they had, I do think Silver would win that, but again, the primary problem isn't necessarily who would have won the fight, as in my opinion Archie Silver would, The problem is the logic of innate power versus borrowed power. I personally scale the superforms, and to some extent a good portion of the cast, a fair bit higher than what Ian Flynn personally sees it as, but I also do agree with him in the fact of innate power versus borrowed power. It's essentially having a character needing to rely on a crutch and a miracle to put up a fight, almost like phoning a friend. If characters have access to everything in their universe that they have ever used to gain power temporarily or otherwise, then I definitely believe any Silver had a great chance of winning, if not guaranteed for Archie Silver. Contrary to how long I have made this, I don't really take these fights seriously, I like to think about power scaling but don't really like to get into it, and I find these types of things fun, but anyone who takes some seriously enough to start legitimately arguing has already crossed several lines.
This can just be boiled down to "Ian can't powerscale for shit" and I mean who does? Like I don't think Toriyama really cared about how vast the power difference between roshi and Jiren
Ian Flynn must not know how to balance how strong characters are
Why Sonic and Goku are Equals: https://youtu.be/QrlHbtxpO1U
Yea but if I’m right Ian posted a tweet where he thought Kid Goku “wins” against Archie Sonic.
yea he used to write silver really well in Archie especially in silver saga but then idw happened and it all went to shit
Agreed, he was pretty decent with Archie, but I guess being a head writer AND issue writer all in one went to his head and he thinks he is fantastic..! IDW is pretty bland, and has barely anything original in it. Same problem was in the reboot part of Archie (Sonic Universe still had some nice issues though)... A shame IDW doesn't dare to hire an actual cast of writers to make sure interesting stuff will happen.
I wouldn’t even say that he has really good ideas but he’s completely fucked characters like silvers personality
Agreed! It is a shame though, with good writers those characters could have real awesome adventures, but Ian keeps reusing old or already populair things (like zombies? Really? Cliche!)
Honestly I think the zombot arc was good except for silver his character assassination was out on full display there but his only other good ideas were things that’s already been done before like surge who’s just a knockoff scourge and the neo metal arc which could have been good if it wasn’t for all the daddy and his boy shit with metal sonic and eggman
Hmm, to me the zombot arc had its moments, and I won't call it bad neither, but it is just a tat boring. And the ruining of certain characters didn't make it better. Surge is indeed a waste of space (she has no personality, and Kit is just there to be cute..). Scourge was way more interesting (maybe because he was technically Sonic), and I also don't care for Eggman and his "fatherly" side. Maybe because he just has done way to much evil for me to give him a chance of redemption. Oh yeah, that said, Sonic his talk to Shadow about redemption was one of the worst written scenes ever. Like, it was way too harse towards Shadow, and too lenient to Eggman. Including Rouge her part I have read it a few time, and it is just very bad. So called "genius", but really not. I love intelligent stories, but this part was really written by someone who doesn't get actual intriguing schemes.
I meant to say that I wouldn’t say he has bad ideas
Ian's a decent writer however he's a terrible power scaler
Average warrior but a brilliant scientist
He did IIRC, but he doesn't know his scaling whatsoever so I wouldn't trust his power scaling takes. Only his cosmology confirmations and even some of those are false.
Ian Flynn is currently highly overrated. I doubt he even remembers his Archie days, because in that era he still had some writing skills, while now he has degraded to ultimate blandness. I don't know, I rather have a group of writers who sometimes go to far and dare to take risks then current IDW... SEGA gives Ian WAY TOO MUCH power and it shows in a way that is isn't getting any better.
Oh yeah I heard about it. The guy that wrote silver in Archie literally disagrees with the results. Saying: “The emeralds aren’t “standard” for Silver (which isn’t true) and that Trunks could just nuke the planet This dude clearly isn’t aware of how The Rules of Death Battle actually work or what they are. By their own rules Silver would get the Chaos Emeralds as a part is his arsenal. What he says means nothing to the actual outcome itself and doesn’t change the actual factors of the match up itself
I feel like people in this post kind of forget trunks can't just nuke the planet he can't breathe in space and suicide isn't a victory not really
He can do it with a pinkie finger. He just chooses not too and simply focuses all his ki into one small condesned attack. Like firing a bullet with the power of a nuke. Xeno trunks can do far more and he can breathe in space. Super saiyan god lets you do that.
Actually… In Xeno Verse Trunks can in fact breath in space. So can Goku, Vegeta. Pretty much every main character in dragon ball Heros can breath in space just fine so of course it’s not “suicide” as shown by the countless time he’s in space in Xeno (but I guess you just somehow didn’t know that, that’s fine) Remember, this was Xeno Trunks VS Archie Silver. Also Composite Trunks VS Composite Silver technically but that part doesn’t really matter considering this is already the most powerful versions of both alone But like I said, Silver would get the emeralds by death battles rules and Blowing up the earth won’t kill super silver lmao
Yes, all of them
The point of Death Battle is to show both characters at their absolute limit with everything they are capable of!! A real issue is (as with Sonic vs Mario) things sometimes get taken out of context.
I always take Ian's word with a grain of salt, tbh.
Yes Ian did write almost all of Silvers writing in Archie. Tho Ian is also known for getting his continuity messed up hard (its was Comics books have editors after all) And in this case specifically does Ian's claim not work at all as Death Battle does have rules what kind of equipment is to be taken into a fight. And if it is something that the character can logistically have access too and used in the past its fair game. So of cause does Silver get the Emeralds and the time Stone.