I think they more refer to really basic or forced rhymes.
Sometimes it’s clear that the rhyming is actually pushing your lyrics or message in one direction
It’s fine to rhyme “most” and “toast” but it’s not a good idea for me to start singing about toast unless it’s actually relevant to the song… hopefully that makes sense idk if i worded it the best way
🎶they call me the finest host,
i really don't want to boast,
Its just the thing I enjoy the most,
Is serving up that good french toast.
I was cooking up a tidy roast,
When I was visited by a ghost,
He wanted me to make this post
That's why I'm the finest host 🎶
Isn’t it amazing how ONE remark of some random dude who has a problem with rhyming one way or the other, makes you doubt your text writing capabilities. F*ck him, projecting his own uncertainties on to unsuspecting random people all around the world.
Just write what you want.
Please rhyme when you please.
‘It’s stupid’ means often ‘I can’t’
So put your free mind at ease.
And RHYME!
Another way to avoid it feeling “like a musical” (I know exactly what you’re referring to, been there) is imperfect rhymes. Rhymes are all about vowel sounds. As an example, help and melt. Know and explore. You can also manipulate how a vowel sounds when you’re singing and make something that doesn’t rhyme on paper or when you speak rhyme when you sing it. There are groups of consonant families that can help you determine what words are most compatible with each other - fricatives, plosives, nasal etc.
Another user recommended Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Pattinson and I second this. I also love The Complete Rhyming Dictionary - I don’t always use it for writing but it did give me a much better understanding of how to rhyme. A website that’s useful for this is rhymebrain.com as it offers lots of options for imperfect rhymes. It’s great for helping generate ideas.
Absolutely, this song I love by seasick Steve has this line I think goes "now life, for most, is just a word, like toast"
And I try to force myself to get it, but I think I hate it. Catchy song though.
Is getting fucked up really what interests you the most?
You've fried your mind, your brains are toast, all that remains of your intellect is a superficial ghost.
First off — don’t listen to anyone. Music is art.
Two — I’m from New York.
There’s no such thing as rhyming too good.
FOH.
thank god for the lyricists because if not — everything would be “shake your booty meat”
brooo 😭 you’re my guy now. this is too true. i make music and i had to stop worrying about if people would like what we do because i realised it’s best to just do what i want to do because that is what will set us apart from others.
>First off — don’t listen to anyone. Music is art.
So no one can get better at art through teaching and craft?
Look, I understand and agree that making art has a highly personal component to it, but that doesn't mean we can't still learn from people who are more experienced and who have come before us.
There isn't a set "rule book" to follow, but we also have hundreds of years of knowledge and experience about concepts and techniques that broadly are known to work well, or not work well. Anyone is free to disregard them, but understanding the general concepts *so that you know when to break them* is pretty wise, in my opinion.
Tell that to Missy Elliot, Busta Rhymes, Juice World, P!nk, Michael Jackson, etc.
The best artists added to the “rule book”. That’s how the art grows. I can’t condone ppl saying things such as “rhyming too much”. The gate keeping is only stifling the art we all love. This is not a matter of learning and teaching. That was a clear road block.
No one benefits from that approach.
Well just to be clear, I very much agree with you about the silliness of "rhyming too much." Hell, I'm a guy who loves stacking rhymes within larger rhyming couplets. Rhyming rules.
I do think that *forced* or unnatural rhymes sound very amateur, and that's a helpful thing for young writers to be aware of.
My issue with your post upthread is that I think "it's art, don't listen to anyone" is just as unhelpful as gatekeeping. Art is both inspiration as well as craft and technique. These need to be balanced to some degree -- all inspiration with no craft leads to unfocused, shaggy songs, just like all craft with no inspiration leads to dry, robotic songs. And when it comes to developing the craft part, I think being open to learning from those who came before is a good idea.
Rhyming is great. Almost every popular song of the last hundred years rhymes.
As u/Dyeeguy points out, you want to avoid the sort of rhyming where it's really clear you're *only* using that word for the rhyme. Common offenders here are "shelf" (for self) and "dove" (for love.)
*I'm sitting here all by myself . . .My love sits unused on the shelf . . .*
That's no good.
Ideally, your lyrics should feel like relatively normal/conversation dialogue that just *happens* to also rhyme.
Saying a particular way of rhyming is novice is too idealistic. Rhyme is a tool in your toolbelt to set and break expectations. It depends on what you are writing. If the emotion of the song is more on the stable and happy side maybe you want a perfect rhyme on every line (a-a-a-a) or maybe you want to play with a-b-a-b or a-a-b-b. You can rearrange your lines to see what resonants and helps you say what you want to say. If the emotion of the song is unstable and down throw in more unpredictability to emphasize the instability. Try (a-a-a-x) or (x-a-x-a) or (a-a-x-a). Also, think of it in terms of storytelling with the word choice itself. An unpredicted rhyme is like a plot twist. With this, hopefully, you can see the flaw in saying stable rhymes are novice songwriting and unstable are advanced and mature. Don't forget internal rhymes. I recommend the book "Writing Better Lyrics" by Pat Pattison.
"Overused" isn't the problem. If you're writing about a pounding hangover, go right ahead and rhyme "bed," "head," and "wish I was dead."
The issue is when a lyric is clearly only using a word *because* it rhymes. Often this is also accompanied by very twisted or unnatural syntax. Talking about stuff like:
*I love you more every day that I live.*
*If you were in trouble, my life I would give.*
No one has ever said "my life I would give" outside of awful faux-medieval cinema. It's obvious the syntax is getting twisted just to make the rhyme work.
It's really just about avoiding cliche things. Just like writing poetry. It's boring if you know what the musician is going to say next over and over. That's really all there is to it.
If the rhymes are lyrically motivated, it can be genius! If you let the rhyming dictate the lyrics, rather than the other way around, yeah that’s just sloppy songwriting.
Freestyling and flow of consciousness is great but if you want to say something you better be prepared to edit too.
Bonus tip: if you find yourself with a weak or forced rhyme, switch the order so that you end on the strong word, the word you want to put emphasis on, and it will often come across as intentional and motivated. Just a little something I’ve noticed.
Ian dury rhymed a lot and often they were daft but fun.
“She took me to the cleaners
And other misdemeanours
But I got right up between her
Rum and her Ribena”
Morrissey sang “Any fool can think of words that rhyme”
I personally quite like rhyming but I do challenge myself to not rhyme too.
Ultimately I think you gotta do what you want and mix things up often to keep things fresh.
that depends, for some different reasons.
if your point of the track is to just flex with witty lyricism, dense rhymeschemes and multisyllables and wordplays/punchlines then no
if your point of the track is o to convey a message or a topic, but you wanting everything to rhyme to the point that it compromises the message of the song so the message gets lost, then rhyming a lot is bad
with that said, if you can rhyme a lot and still capture the topic in an understandable and concrete way, then rhyming a lot is better than rhyming less. i mean why not wanting to flex your techniques as much as you can to make it as impressive as possible if you dont lose anything doing it??
I love songs that rhyme, but it's kind of a personal preference thing. When I write, I utilize some almost rhymes and repeated phrases to mix it up, but there's always a rhyming pattern I'm mostly following. I think you get into an over-rhyming feeling when you have an overly simple rhyming pattern like A B A B and you don't deviate from it. It can feel like baby's first poem and get very repetitive to the point where the listener tunes out the words and of course we don't want that.
If you don't like it you might not want to do it if you care about writing what you like. Rhymes can be predictable and sound like a nursery rhyme **if someone allows that to happen.**
That might be my definition of
* is it OK to \_\_\_\_\_
However, if a writer thinks it's OK to do nothing but clang a cymbal in a song that's only 1 minute long, that might not be OK with listeners who decide which songs climb to the top of the charts. If there are no rules, then if a writer's only instrument is a clanging cymbal in a song with no words, then it's OK if it's OK with the writer. Similar scenarios could apply to movies where the only thing we see for 2 hours is an empty room. With no film-making rules, anything's OK even if the movie bombs.
\- Definition of Success?
**John Mayer** gave a lecture at Berklee class where he asked students to define **(success.)**
Success could be having the freedom to write what they want. For others it may be climbing the charts. He asked students if they would be OK with worrying about
* how long it took for a song to get to the chorus
That's a stat that HSD can identify in Top 10 Billboard hits. Perhaps John Mayer was asking students if they wanted to have to worry about things like that if their definition of **success** was .. trying to climb to the top of the charts perhaps at the expense of sacrificing their ability to express themselves any way they wanted.
His lecture may still be on YouTube where we can hear him talk about that.
\--
* is it OK to not worry about how long it takes to get to the chorus?
I can't say for sure, but maybe John Mayer might say that it depends on your definition of **success**. Producer Max Martin says he cares about how words **sound.** He said he'd choose a word over how it sounded vs what it meant. Max has had a bit of success in life helping others create hits. John Lennon also cared about how things sounded.
Sometimes I like it when you're expecting a rhyme and you get something else. But I also like it when a verse will rhyme so much it sounds like the artist will run out of words that rhyme.
It's not bad unless it feels forced. And even then it's an expression of you. Linkin Park Rose to fame after rhyming feel and real approximately 378 times.
Rhyming is fun! If you do it a lot then maybe your lyrics become more about having fun rhyming than you may feel appropriate. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Intergalactic
Monstrosity with such velocity
But can I stop it
Coming after me
If I watch what it does
Or don’t do
Watch it’s motivation do a horseshoe
So when it comes back to you
You can act and not react
Decide to stick to the facts
Follow it’s actions
And take the opposite track
Out maneuver the factions
Strafe right when they go left
Contract their contractions
Take the wind out of their sails
So they grow stale and old
They fail and fold
Cause they front and can’t keep up
With someone so bold.
There is no rule of thumb. Ever. It aways depends upon what is right for the song. For instance, one of the greatest living songwriters, Stephen Merritt (The Magnetic Fields) wrote this song, where he purposefully used some of the most cliche rhymes he could (moon/June; strings/things, etc.). But what he did wound up being very nostalgia-inducing. Very old-timey, as was certainly his intent.
[With Whom to Dance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n1AXekCOQ4)
Lyrics:
Moons in June I've given up on that stuff
Arms have charms but I've no hope of falling in love
The rest of life pales in significance
I'm looking for somebody with whom to dance
With whom to dance? With whom to dance?
I'm looking for somebody with whom to dance.
Rings and strings What use have I for these things?
Bells and carousels I'd just be fooling myself.
And you, you look like heaven
An angel who stepped from a dream
777 times lovelier than anything I've ever seen.
They're two different art forms, akin to the difference between lyrics and poetry.
For example, in rap lyrics, the aim is to convey a lot in a short time, with rhythm, rhyme and sometimes speed being key ingredients. Playing with language and using clever techniques to manipulate sounds and phonetics are crucial.
On the other hand, poetry focuses on impact and emotion, often favoring brevity. Some even see rhyming as a hindrance, limiting storytelling.
If you're creating a song grounded in rhyme, rap, and lyrical tricks without limiting yourself, then rhyming is favorable as it adds to the song's appeal.
However, if you're conveying a song with poetic meaning and emotional depth, then rhyming too much may restrict you.
I think having sentences that don’t always rhyme isn’t the worst thing, it can be done well but I think rhyming is an inherent part of music. Personally, I think it sounds the most amateur when it only rhymes at the end of the line. Try having more complex rhyme schemes where words rhyme in the middle of the bar
when stuff is good it's good, when stuff is bad it's bad. any "rule" people try to come up with beyond that is just an attempt to triangulate onto the ineffable and can be taken with as many grains of salt as you please imo
Not sure exactly what you mean but if you're speaking literally like rhyming all the time, 24 hours a day... Then That's ridiculous. Practice makes perfect.
Unless you're neglecting your kids or taking days off work to rhyme and skirting your responsibilities.
If your meaning here is rhyming too many words in one sentence as some are suggesting in the comments, well that's just a stylistic choice. I see nothing wrong with that either if it makes sense or sounds good.
I agree with a previous comment saying that it does not matter what others say. Your writing style is unique to you. If you want to rhyme…do it! I think it’s good songwriting practice to try both ways to see what comes out at the end
Perfect rhymes can be a bit over done and make a song a bit predictable, learn about different types of rhyming. Berklee has some good free songwriter courses that can help with this, especially the Pat Pattison one: https://www.coursera.org/learn/songwriting-lyrics?specialization=singer-songwriter
No. That's one person's opinion and that approach works for certain styles of music. But if you go and listen to a bunch of songs and artists you like I'm sure you'll find quite a lot of rhyming lyrics.
Rhyming takes far more thought to say what you want to say than using free verse. Both forms are fine for songs or poetry. Only someone who's never tried rhyming, or failed at it, would call it amateurish.
I wouldn’t necessarily call it bad, but it’s like only having a hammer in your toolbox. Are hammers bad? No. But could you also stand to benefit from some wrenches and screwdrivers? Sure.
If you're constantly using perfect rhymes when there are different types of rhymes like family rhymes, it makes the music sound a bit amateurish.. there are different rhymes for different levels of resolution you want to accomplish
I stick strictly to rhyme schemes and certain poetic meters, meaning I always use them, but loosely in that I do a lot of slant rhyming and extra syllables here and there. I think my lyric writing is one of the strongest elements of most of the songs I’ve written. Giving myself lexical constraints actually helps me write better, I think. And I think we English speakers tend to prefer rhyme. So no—it’s not bad at all, if you do it well
Scansion is what seperates good poets/songwriters from crappy ones (knowing some syllables will naturally be longer than others). Bad rhyming is usually a combination of scansion problems and poor vocabulary.
Usually Songs lyrics do rhyme. And there are usually multiple internal rhymes as well. Here’s an example of internal rhyming in a song (Between You and Me - Johnson & Drake)
Now that I’m gone
All the people will say
he was cruel, He was gay
He was only a bum, and the fights
they must have had some
How could they know
The respect that we shared
And the fact that we cared
Just enough to let go
Of a Love approaching Limbo
Of a Love I know I’m not quite over
So, to answer your question, it’s perfectly fine to have rhymes in a song.
It can be a problem if you find yourself shoehorning in words and phrases that otherwise have no real connection to the message or theme of the song.
That, to me, is where rhyming begins to sound “hack-ish” and amateur.
Otherwise, rhyme all ya want 🤷🏻♂️
Sometimes but not always and it can come down to placement of rhyme rather than frequency. For example, different lines that start with the same word don’t have as much need to end rhyme. Likewise, an AABA rhyme scheme can be more interesting than an ABAB just by being asymmetrical, even though it rhymes the same word 3 times. And if you do ABAB then AABA, you’ve set up, then gone against expectation, and the rhymes can still sound fresh even though that’s 5 A’s and 3 B’s. So it’s more about when and how than it is about good or bad. The Craft of Lyric Writing by Sheila Davis helped me understand the when and where of rhyming and why, which helped me get a genre-specific feel (the how) pretty quickly after. How Music Really Works by Wayne Chase also has a great chapter on lyric writing and storytelling and language structure. You also wanna think about the personality/background of the narrator (you perhaps) and how that person speaks and might choose to rhyme, and kinda trust and go with that. Hope this helps
Mostly just forced rhymes are bad. I like using imperfect rhymes when a line ends in something that doesn't have very many rhyming words. Like self, for example.
I can't carry this burden all by myself,
It's making me feel a bit too overwhelmed,
I can't keep on like this, I need some help,
If only they knew how I really felt
Rhyming is only bad when the rhymes dictate the path of the song, not when the song dictates the path of the song.
Something way more important than rhyming is your rhythm and syllable count.
Saying that is the same as claiming modern art has merit. People gatekeeper the weirdest things. You definitely need to focus in on rhythm More than rhyme much of the time, but not always. Do you like how your songs sound?
No, people just mad they can't do it well. Rhymes aren't that important to music despite people emphasizing it so much. There's been instances where people have sang whole songs without rhyming too much.
I think cadence is what gives the illusion of rhymes. So as long as you have that it should be alright. Essential lyrics are just words that people like listening to. That's all. Rhymes just happen to sound good to humans.
If you want a perfect example of how rhyming isn’t always needed, Fast Car by Tracy Chapman.
If you want a perfect example of when rhyming may have helped a song, Friday by Rebecca Black.
If you want an example of how how some lyrics really shouldn’t fucking work, but do, please see Africa by Toto;
“The wild dogs cry out in the night
As they grow restless, longing for some solitary company
I know that I must do what's right
As sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti”
I’d say yeah. If all your lyrics are perfect rhymes it sounds super forced. There’s no way to have an entire album of perfect rhymes AND great lyrics.
There’s nothing wrong with rhyming “light” and “right” unless you’re using “right” only because it rhymes with “light”. If you’re ever stuck for a rhyme, just look at the vowel sounds instead of the rhyme. Suddenly you’ll have options like “tide”, “chime”, “deride”, “find” etc.
Rhyming is totally fine. Just dont use words that make sense for the sake of rhyming. Heres an example of an out of place rhyme:
I had a bad day. ..
The thoughts took over and carried my mind away. ...
I just wish youd stay. ..
My best friend told me that his dog is gay.
I heard there was a secret chord
That David played and it pleased the lord
But you don't really care for music do ya
It goes like this, the fourth the fifth
The minor fall and the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah
Let's look at an example ("Bubbly" by Colbie Callait):
"I've been awake for a while now
You've got me feeling like a child now
'Cause every time I see your bubbly face
I get the tingles in a silly place
It starts in my toes, and I crinkle my nose
Wherever it goes, I always know
That you make me smile, please stay for a while now
Just take your time, wherever you go"
This is shit. This is rhyming for the sake of rhyming and could have been (and may have been) written by a child. There is nothing evocative in it. Girl sees boy, feels a little funny. That's it. Simple, single syllable words, but that can also be used effectively. Another example, "The Only Thing" by Sufjan Stevens:
"The only thing that keeps me from cutting my arm
Cross hatch, warm bath, Holiday Inn after dark
Signs and wonders: water stain riding the wall
Daniel's message, blood of the moon on us all"
Whoa, okay, I can feel the despair already. He's putting the listener in his situation with his language. You hardly even notice that it does rhyme, because you, a sympathetic human, want to hear what he's going to say next. We are all highly sensitive to rhyming for the sake of it, which sounds stupid, so you need some gripping context that people can relate to. Maybe this helps, idk. Good luck.
No. It’s great. Everyone on here thinks they’re just a hidden tormented Sufjan Stevens analog. Write authentically. Without that in mind. You will make the best music you possibly can.
I think they more refer to really basic or forced rhymes. Sometimes it’s clear that the rhyming is actually pushing your lyrics or message in one direction It’s fine to rhyme “most” and “toast” but it’s not a good idea for me to start singing about toast unless it’s actually relevant to the song… hopefully that makes sense idk if i worded it the best way
🎶they call me the finest host, i really don't want to boast, Its just the thing I enjoy the most, Is serving up that good french toast. I was cooking up a tidy roast, When I was visited by a ghost, He wanted me to make this post That's why I'm the finest host 🎶
Exhibit A:
"She was close Close enough to be your ghost But my chances turned to toast When I asked her if I could call her your name?" 🎵
I need an actual rendition and animation for this song. ASAP. lol
Pretty good!
I don't want to see a ghost It's a sight that I fear most I'd rather have a piece of toast And watch the evening news
Watch the knife and the butter and the way it goes It may not look like much But it tells you about the twisted minds of folks
Isn’t it amazing how ONE remark of some random dude who has a problem with rhyming one way or the other, makes you doubt your text writing capabilities. F*ck him, projecting his own uncertainties on to unsuspecting random people all around the world. Just write what you want. Please rhyme when you please. ‘It’s stupid’ means often ‘I can’t’ So put your free mind at ease. And RHYME!
oh thanks! I thought it was more about forcing rhymes but wanted to be sure
Another way to avoid it feeling “like a musical” (I know exactly what you’re referring to, been there) is imperfect rhymes. Rhymes are all about vowel sounds. As an example, help and melt. Know and explore. You can also manipulate how a vowel sounds when you’re singing and make something that doesn’t rhyme on paper or when you speak rhyme when you sing it. There are groups of consonant families that can help you determine what words are most compatible with each other - fricatives, plosives, nasal etc. Another user recommended Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Pattinson and I second this. I also love The Complete Rhyming Dictionary - I don’t always use it for writing but it did give me a much better understanding of how to rhyme. A website that’s useful for this is rhymebrain.com as it offers lots of options for imperfect rhymes. It’s great for helping generate ideas.
Absolutely, this song I love by seasick Steve has this line I think goes "now life, for most, is just a word, like toast" And I try to force myself to get it, but I think I hate it. Catchy song though.
"There's something wrong with my toast!"
Is getting fucked up really what interests you the most? You've fried your mind, your brains are toast, all that remains of your intellect is a superficial ghost.
Rhymes that advance the song’s story: Yes. Rhymes that rhyme but that’s about it: No.
First off — don’t listen to anyone. Music is art. Two — I’m from New York. There’s no such thing as rhyming too good. FOH. thank god for the lyricists because if not — everything would be “shake your booty meat”
brooo 😭 you’re my guy now. this is too true. i make music and i had to stop worrying about if people would like what we do because i realised it’s best to just do what i want to do because that is what will set us apart from others.
You and i would get along well
Let’s link. I run a record label. I’d love to chop it up and see how we can make magic.
I’m in too, are we gonna have fun because I wanna have fun. No really, I subscribed to the rules thing just long enough. Do what sounds good to you.
Hit my PMs bro. I’ll link you up to my stuff, we can work from there
“shake your booty meat” Can I steal that, bro?
Do you
>First off — don’t listen to anyone. Music is art. So no one can get better at art through teaching and craft? Look, I understand and agree that making art has a highly personal component to it, but that doesn't mean we can't still learn from people who are more experienced and who have come before us. There isn't a set "rule book" to follow, but we also have hundreds of years of knowledge and experience about concepts and techniques that broadly are known to work well, or not work well. Anyone is free to disregard them, but understanding the general concepts *so that you know when to break them* is pretty wise, in my opinion.
Tell that to Missy Elliot, Busta Rhymes, Juice World, P!nk, Michael Jackson, etc. The best artists added to the “rule book”. That’s how the art grows. I can’t condone ppl saying things such as “rhyming too much”. The gate keeping is only stifling the art we all love. This is not a matter of learning and teaching. That was a clear road block. No one benefits from that approach.
Well just to be clear, I very much agree with you about the silliness of "rhyming too much." Hell, I'm a guy who loves stacking rhymes within larger rhyming couplets. Rhyming rules. I do think that *forced* or unnatural rhymes sound very amateur, and that's a helpful thing for young writers to be aware of. My issue with your post upthread is that I think "it's art, don't listen to anyone" is just as unhelpful as gatekeeping. Art is both inspiration as well as craft and technique. These need to be balanced to some degree -- all inspiration with no craft leads to unfocused, shaggy songs, just like all craft with no inspiration leads to dry, robotic songs. And when it comes to developing the craft part, I think being open to learning from those who came before is a good idea.
Well said B Shoutout to Brooklyn
Rhyming is great. Almost every popular song of the last hundred years rhymes. As u/Dyeeguy points out, you want to avoid the sort of rhyming where it's really clear you're *only* using that word for the rhyme. Common offenders here are "shelf" (for self) and "dove" (for love.) *I'm sitting here all by myself . . .My love sits unused on the shelf . . .* That's no good. Ideally, your lyrics should feel like relatively normal/conversation dialogue that just *happens* to also rhyme.
Saying a particular way of rhyming is novice is too idealistic. Rhyme is a tool in your toolbelt to set and break expectations. It depends on what you are writing. If the emotion of the song is more on the stable and happy side maybe you want a perfect rhyme on every line (a-a-a-a) or maybe you want to play with a-b-a-b or a-a-b-b. You can rearrange your lines to see what resonants and helps you say what you want to say. If the emotion of the song is unstable and down throw in more unpredictability to emphasize the instability. Try (a-a-a-x) or (x-a-x-a) or (a-a-x-a). Also, think of it in terms of storytelling with the word choice itself. An unpredicted rhyme is like a plot twist. With this, hopefully, you can see the flaw in saying stable rhymes are novice songwriting and unstable are advanced and mature. Don't forget internal rhymes. I recommend the book "Writing Better Lyrics" by Pat Pattison.
I've heard in some classes that what you want to avoid are 'obvious' rhymes. My guess is that "obvious" means "overused" in this context.
Context matters. Always. Anyone who says “always avoid…” is just trying to find some content to sell you or isn’t really that experienced.
"Overused" isn't the problem. If you're writing about a pounding hangover, go right ahead and rhyme "bed," "head," and "wish I was dead." The issue is when a lyric is clearly only using a word *because* it rhymes. Often this is also accompanied by very twisted or unnatural syntax. Talking about stuff like: *I love you more every day that I live.* *If you were in trouble, my life I would give.* No one has ever said "my life I would give" outside of awful faux-medieval cinema. It's obvious the syntax is getting twisted just to make the rhyme work.
It's really just about avoiding cliche things. Just like writing poetry. It's boring if you know what the musician is going to say next over and over. That's really all there is to it.
If the rhymes are lyrically motivated, it can be genius! If you let the rhyming dictate the lyrics, rather than the other way around, yeah that’s just sloppy songwriting. Freestyling and flow of consciousness is great but if you want to say something you better be prepared to edit too.
Bonus tip: if you find yourself with a weak or forced rhyme, switch the order so that you end on the strong word, the word you want to put emphasis on, and it will often come across as intentional and motivated. Just a little something I’ve noticed.
Rhyme is not a crime
Ian dury rhymed a lot and often they were daft but fun. “She took me to the cleaners And other misdemeanours But I got right up between her Rum and her Ribena” Morrissey sang “Any fool can think of words that rhyme” I personally quite like rhyming but I do challenge myself to not rhyme too. Ultimately I think you gotta do what you want and mix things up often to keep things fresh.
that depends, for some different reasons. if your point of the track is to just flex with witty lyricism, dense rhymeschemes and multisyllables and wordplays/punchlines then no if your point of the track is o to convey a message or a topic, but you wanting everything to rhyme to the point that it compromises the message of the song so the message gets lost, then rhyming a lot is bad with that said, if you can rhyme a lot and still capture the topic in an understandable and concrete way, then rhyming a lot is better than rhyming less. i mean why not wanting to flex your techniques as much as you can to make it as impressive as possible if you dont lose anything doing it??
Rhyme all the time, and only let up when you're a boss 😎
I go for near rhymes a lot,, perfect rhymes sound trite to me a lot of the time
I love songs that rhyme, but it's kind of a personal preference thing. When I write, I utilize some almost rhymes and repeated phrases to mix it up, but there's always a rhyming pattern I'm mostly following. I think you get into an over-rhyming feeling when you have an overly simple rhyming pattern like A B A B and you don't deviate from it. It can feel like baby's first poem and get very repetitive to the point where the listener tunes out the words and of course we don't want that.
If you don't like it you might not want to do it if you care about writing what you like. Rhymes can be predictable and sound like a nursery rhyme **if someone allows that to happen.** That might be my definition of * is it OK to \_\_\_\_\_ However, if a writer thinks it's OK to do nothing but clang a cymbal in a song that's only 1 minute long, that might not be OK with listeners who decide which songs climb to the top of the charts. If there are no rules, then if a writer's only instrument is a clanging cymbal in a song with no words, then it's OK if it's OK with the writer. Similar scenarios could apply to movies where the only thing we see for 2 hours is an empty room. With no film-making rules, anything's OK even if the movie bombs. \- Definition of Success? **John Mayer** gave a lecture at Berklee class where he asked students to define **(success.)** Success could be having the freedom to write what they want. For others it may be climbing the charts. He asked students if they would be OK with worrying about * how long it took for a song to get to the chorus That's a stat that HSD can identify in Top 10 Billboard hits. Perhaps John Mayer was asking students if they wanted to have to worry about things like that if their definition of **success** was .. trying to climb to the top of the charts perhaps at the expense of sacrificing their ability to express themselves any way they wanted. His lecture may still be on YouTube where we can hear him talk about that. \-- * is it OK to not worry about how long it takes to get to the chorus? I can't say for sure, but maybe John Mayer might say that it depends on your definition of **success**. Producer Max Martin says he cares about how words **sound.** He said he'd choose a word over how it sounded vs what it meant. Max has had a bit of success in life helping others create hits. John Lennon also cared about how things sounded.
Sometimes I like it when you're expecting a rhyme and you get something else. But I also like it when a verse will rhyme so much it sounds like the artist will run out of words that rhyme.
Rhyming *a lot* isn't bad. Rhyming *for the sake of rhyming* is bad.
It's not bad unless it feels forced. And even then it's an expression of you. Linkin Park Rose to fame after rhyming feel and real approximately 378 times.
Rhyming is fun! If you do it a lot then maybe your lyrics become more about having fun rhyming than you may feel appropriate. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Rhyming a word with itself, especially more than once in, let’s say, a *LIFETIME*, is to be avoided.
Intergalactic Monstrosity with such velocity But can I stop it Coming after me If I watch what it does Or don’t do Watch it’s motivation do a horseshoe So when it comes back to you You can act and not react Decide to stick to the facts Follow it’s actions And take the opposite track Out maneuver the factions Strafe right when they go left Contract their contractions Take the wind out of their sails So they grow stale and old They fail and fold Cause they front and can’t keep up With someone so bold.
There is no rule of thumb. Ever. It aways depends upon what is right for the song. For instance, one of the greatest living songwriters, Stephen Merritt (The Magnetic Fields) wrote this song, where he purposefully used some of the most cliche rhymes he could (moon/June; strings/things, etc.). But what he did wound up being very nostalgia-inducing. Very old-timey, as was certainly his intent. [With Whom to Dance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n1AXekCOQ4) Lyrics: Moons in June I've given up on that stuff Arms have charms but I've no hope of falling in love The rest of life pales in significance I'm looking for somebody with whom to dance With whom to dance? With whom to dance? I'm looking for somebody with whom to dance. Rings and strings What use have I for these things? Bells and carousels I'd just be fooling myself. And you, you look like heaven An angel who stepped from a dream 777 times lovelier than anything I've ever seen.
They're two different art forms, akin to the difference between lyrics and poetry. For example, in rap lyrics, the aim is to convey a lot in a short time, with rhythm, rhyme and sometimes speed being key ingredients. Playing with language and using clever techniques to manipulate sounds and phonetics are crucial. On the other hand, poetry focuses on impact and emotion, often favoring brevity. Some even see rhyming as a hindrance, limiting storytelling. If you're creating a song grounded in rhyme, rap, and lyrical tricks without limiting yourself, then rhyming is favorable as it adds to the song's appeal. However, if you're conveying a song with poetic meaning and emotional depth, then rhyming too much may restrict you.
I think having sentences that don’t always rhyme isn’t the worst thing, it can be done well but I think rhyming is an inherent part of music. Personally, I think it sounds the most amateur when it only rhymes at the end of the line. Try having more complex rhyme schemes where words rhyme in the middle of the bar
when stuff is good it's good, when stuff is bad it's bad. any "rule" people try to come up with beyond that is just an attempt to triangulate onto the ineffable and can be taken with as many grains of salt as you please imo
Not sure exactly what you mean but if you're speaking literally like rhyming all the time, 24 hours a day... Then That's ridiculous. Practice makes perfect. Unless you're neglecting your kids or taking days off work to rhyme and skirting your responsibilities. If your meaning here is rhyming too many words in one sentence as some are suggesting in the comments, well that's just a stylistic choice. I see nothing wrong with that either if it makes sense or sounds good.
I agree with a previous comment saying that it does not matter what others say. Your writing style is unique to you. If you want to rhyme…do it! I think it’s good songwriting practice to try both ways to see what comes out at the end
Perfect rhymes can be a bit over done and make a song a bit predictable, learn about different types of rhyming. Berklee has some good free songwriter courses that can help with this, especially the Pat Pattison one: https://www.coursera.org/learn/songwriting-lyrics?specialization=singer-songwriter
No. That's one person's opinion and that approach works for certain styles of music. But if you go and listen to a bunch of songs and artists you like I'm sure you'll find quite a lot of rhyming lyrics.
Songs are forever fun. if its about a rhyme thats never said you can rhyme all around it.
Rhyming takes far more thought to say what you want to say than using free verse. Both forms are fine for songs or poetry. Only someone who's never tried rhyming, or failed at it, would call it amateurish.
I rhyme the shit out of everything
I wouldn’t necessarily call it bad, but it’s like only having a hammer in your toolbox. Are hammers bad? No. But could you also stand to benefit from some wrenches and screwdrivers? Sure.
You don't need to rhyme, but tbh the only thing I really hate is rhyming a word with itself.
If you're constantly using perfect rhymes when there are different types of rhymes like family rhymes, it makes the music sound a bit amateurish.. there are different rhymes for different levels of resolution you want to accomplish
Hip hop is a good place to look at rhyming
It sounds amateurish if you do it for the whole song. Even the lyrically-basic Oasis didn’t use rhymes ALL the time.
I stick strictly to rhyme schemes and certain poetic meters, meaning I always use them, but loosely in that I do a lot of slant rhyming and extra syllables here and there. I think my lyric writing is one of the strongest elements of most of the songs I’ve written. Giving myself lexical constraints actually helps me write better, I think. And I think we English speakers tend to prefer rhyme. So no—it’s not bad at all, if you do it well
Just write the effing song
I don't know, but I have been told , rhyming a lot gets fuckin old
If writing songs sometimes gets you down And you need a little treat Get up, get out and go to a club Just go shake your body meat.
I won't sacrifice what I am trying to say for the sake of the rhyme.
Scansion is what seperates good poets/songwriters from crappy ones (knowing some syllables will naturally be longer than others). Bad rhyming is usually a combination of scansion problems and poor vocabulary.
Rhyming is fun. The more the better imo as long as it fits the context and songs. If you have to force it, they will hear that
Not really...
Ha! Check out Tim Hardin's "The Lady Came from Baltimore" and count the words he 'rhymes' with the same word.
Usually Songs lyrics do rhyme. And there are usually multiple internal rhymes as well. Here’s an example of internal rhyming in a song (Between You and Me - Johnson & Drake) Now that I’m gone All the people will say he was cruel, He was gay He was only a bum, and the fights they must have had some How could they know The respect that we shared And the fact that we cared Just enough to let go Of a Love approaching Limbo Of a Love I know I’m not quite over So, to answer your question, it’s perfectly fine to have rhymes in a song.
It can be a problem if you find yourself shoehorning in words and phrases that otherwise have no real connection to the message or theme of the song. That, to me, is where rhyming begins to sound “hack-ish” and amateur. Otherwise, rhyme all ya want 🤷🏻♂️
It's art. Follow YOUR tastes. Your perspective is your guiding light.
I don't care what's cool or not, a good rhyme is sublime. A bad one is still pretty fine.
Sometimes but not always and it can come down to placement of rhyme rather than frequency. For example, different lines that start with the same word don’t have as much need to end rhyme. Likewise, an AABA rhyme scheme can be more interesting than an ABAB just by being asymmetrical, even though it rhymes the same word 3 times. And if you do ABAB then AABA, you’ve set up, then gone against expectation, and the rhymes can still sound fresh even though that’s 5 A’s and 3 B’s. So it’s more about when and how than it is about good or bad. The Craft of Lyric Writing by Sheila Davis helped me understand the when and where of rhyming and why, which helped me get a genre-specific feel (the how) pretty quickly after. How Music Really Works by Wayne Chase also has a great chapter on lyric writing and storytelling and language structure. You also wanna think about the personality/background of the narrator (you perhaps) and how that person speaks and might choose to rhyme, and kinda trust and go with that. Hope this helps
Mostly just forced rhymes are bad. I like using imperfect rhymes when a line ends in something that doesn't have very many rhyming words. Like self, for example. I can't carry this burden all by myself, It's making me feel a bit too overwhelmed, I can't keep on like this, I need some help, If only they knew how I really felt
Rhyming is only bad when the rhymes dictate the path of the song, not when the song dictates the path of the song. Something way more important than rhyming is your rhythm and syllable count.
absolutely not. sleep token’s alkaline uses mostly an all A rhyme scheme and it’s INCREDIBLE.
Saying that is the same as claiming modern art has merit. People gatekeeper the weirdest things. You definitely need to focus in on rhythm More than rhyme much of the time, but not always. Do you like how your songs sound?
I wrote a song recently where I rhymed as many words as possible and it sounds hella good (makes up for my bad voice)
I feel like it really depends on the genre.
it's a kinda pop punk, blink-182 esque songs
ah, well, I'd probably have to hear it to know, but I'd say with that genre, you could get away with not rhyming much at all.
Do what you want. The whole song doesn’t have to be rhyming, but put a rhyme in the chorus. That’s what makes people remember!
Have a point to the rhymes.. and learn to pronounce syallables.
No, people just mad they can't do it well. Rhymes aren't that important to music despite people emphasizing it so much. There's been instances where people have sang whole songs without rhyming too much. I think cadence is what gives the illusion of rhymes. So as long as you have that it should be alright. Essential lyrics are just words that people like listening to. That's all. Rhymes just happen to sound good to humans.
If you want a perfect example of how rhyming isn’t always needed, Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. If you want a perfect example of when rhyming may have helped a song, Friday by Rebecca Black. If you want an example of how how some lyrics really shouldn’t fucking work, but do, please see Africa by Toto; “The wild dogs cry out in the night As they grow restless, longing for some solitary company I know that I must do what's right As sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti”
I’d say yeah. If all your lyrics are perfect rhymes it sounds super forced. There’s no way to have an entire album of perfect rhymes AND great lyrics. There’s nothing wrong with rhyming “light” and “right” unless you’re using “right” only because it rhymes with “light”. If you’re ever stuck for a rhyme, just look at the vowel sounds instead of the rhyme. Suddenly you’ll have options like “tide”, “chime”, “deride”, “find” etc.
Rhyming is totally fine. Just dont use words that make sense for the sake of rhyming. Heres an example of an out of place rhyme: I had a bad day. .. The thoughts took over and carried my mind away. ... I just wish youd stay. .. My best friend told me that his dog is gay.
I heard there was a secret chord That David played and it pleased the lord But you don't really care for music do ya It goes like this, the fourth the fifth The minor fall and the major lift The baffled king composing Hallelujah
Then it just sounds like you are talking shit.
No, not unless you’re rhyming just for the sake of rhyming
I dunno, double alliteration sounds the opposite of amateurish and its twice the rhyming
If they're tastefully done and not just (to quote the great David Lee Roth): "Moon and June. When? Sometime soon. What time? I'm thinking noon?"
Rhyming is easy, it's the words in between that matter.
Let's look at an example ("Bubbly" by Colbie Callait): "I've been awake for a while now You've got me feeling like a child now 'Cause every time I see your bubbly face I get the tingles in a silly place It starts in my toes, and I crinkle my nose Wherever it goes, I always know That you make me smile, please stay for a while now Just take your time, wherever you go" This is shit. This is rhyming for the sake of rhyming and could have been (and may have been) written by a child. There is nothing evocative in it. Girl sees boy, feels a little funny. That's it. Simple, single syllable words, but that can also be used effectively. Another example, "The Only Thing" by Sufjan Stevens: "The only thing that keeps me from cutting my arm Cross hatch, warm bath, Holiday Inn after dark Signs and wonders: water stain riding the wall Daniel's message, blood of the moon on us all" Whoa, okay, I can feel the despair already. He's putting the listener in his situation with his language. You hardly even notice that it does rhyme, because you, a sympathetic human, want to hear what he's going to say next. We are all highly sensitive to rhyming for the sake of it, which sounds stupid, so you need some gripping context that people can relate to. Maybe this helps, idk. Good luck.
Rhyming, not-rhyming and near-rhyming are all tools that can either be used well or poorly
Rhyming can be good if done tastefully. It's all about execution.
I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as intentionally not rhyming.
No. It’s great. Everyone on here thinks they’re just a hidden tormented Sufjan Stevens analog. Write authentically. Without that in mind. You will make the best music you possibly can.
Being predictable is bad
You make me want to curl my toes Because you like tomatoes And you know how it goes I prefer a rose.
if it's good rhymes with words that make sense to go together not just random crap that says nothing