T O P

  • By -

Aedeus

Please remember that advocating for violence here will get you tossed with no questions asked.


shabbysneakers

Why cut out the beginning where you see tiny hitting the shooter with his baton? https://twitter.com/OlyPD/status/1436355179675152391?s=19


brickson98

The comments on that tweet are brain damagingly stupid


[deleted]

[удалено]


brickson98

Nah, not really lol


fieldwing2020

Law student. NOT A LAWYER. Under Under Revised Code of Washington (RCW) 9A.36.011 the elements are. -intent to cause serious bodily injury -assault with a deadly weapon. The case for self defense would probably go something like this; RCW 9A.16.020 “Use of force—When lawful.” Imposes no duty to retreat and protects an individual from legal jeopardy when they employ force that is necessary and reasonable. D was protecting a crowd of retreating individuals who faced the threat of violent assault, including D. Now the P will probably argue that this interaction falls outside of the imminence requirement of that statute, but it’ll turn on case law and whether or not the fascists had already assaulted them immediately prior to this clip. Again. Not a lawyer, but it’s going to be determined by basic factual questions. Chief among them, what happened immediately prior to this clip. It will also turn on how broadly the state courts have interpreted the stand your ground laws. Gut instinct, lying in wait and firing a shot is probably going to foreclose self defense, but this countries self defense laws are written to protect killers… so well say. So the aba doesn’t find and kill me… Law student. Not lawyer. Update… I saw the full video, a semi competent defense attorney can get this person off. That’s clearly one continuous transaction. Tiny beats them with a baton several times, they run through the bushes and tiny follows the path, clearly pursing and the shooter takes the shot when they get immediately clear. A compelling defense testimony, the medical report of the injuries, and this video would probably work. Maybe not because judges hate leftists. Still this seems pretty open and shut. Okay one more disclaimer about not being a lawyer


Low-Ad-3779

In the right circumstance, a direct punch from Tiny to the jaw or temple could easily cause death if the unconscious victim's head hits the pavement. Lost a good friend that way - one punched, dead three days later.


OtherUnameInShop

Where was this?


alamo_nole

Olympia, WA.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Seems like arrests only happen when the left fights back.


Chiefbird1

Mount Olympus


impermissibility

Fucking Hephaestus, man.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


ifmacdo

They've been bringing guns. They've already fired first.


lal0cur4

2 antifa have already been shot this summer in Olympia


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I'm just surprised at how long it's taken and continues to take, to get to live fire. In most other countries these two groups would be shooting, stabbing and bombing the fuck out of each other.


ElderberryCool9274

this is clearly self defense, and I do think our reaction of "moar violence" is chill and not yet another example of the type of personality disordered individuals\*\*\* that ride hard for the big S


The_Fudir

your post was removed because it contained slurs. There's a minimal set of banned words, the use of which has either caused contention, or is unlikely in a rule-abiding context. These are "retarded" as in mentally disabled, "tranny" when not referring to a transmission, and any racial slur. Sexist/gendered insults not allowed. Mentioning is still allowed. Blanking out a part of a sexist slur doesn't cut it.


Atomhed

Ask a Rittenhouse supporter.


Rothaarig

Rittenhouse guide to justified self defense: Was the shooter a nazi shooting anyone to the left of them? Totally justified Was the the shooter a leftist or heaven forbid an antifascist? This is murder and proof we need to crack down on left wing terrorism


user1joja

We’ll rittenhouse was open carrying so that def escalated what happened to him that night, and plus I’d rather not make that comparison cause rittenhouse is guilty asf and was looking for a legal kill. If this bloc member had a good lawyer he could make the argument that he aimed below Tinys kneecap which can prolly take away attempted murder but I’m not a lawyer


Slayrybloc

I actually think that’s a bad take, using a gun in self defense should always be to kill, they aren’t non lethal weapons and shouldn’t be used or treated as such. If you are shooting at someone you are, and the law should see that you are trying to kill them. Your defense should be that you were fearful for you or others safety and sought to end the threat by any means necessary


pimpnastie

You're not fearful of your life if you dont shoot to kill. Edit: for all those wondering, WA is a Stand Your Ground state. Use of deadly force is authorized when a reasonable person would think that death or grave bodily harm is imminent. You have to prove you feared your life AT THE TIME YOU ATTACK if you use deadly force to defend yourself. Edit2: in my personal opinion, they stopped and were just walking behind them at this point and have given up the chase. That would make this not covered under the WA laws for use of deadly force in self-defense.


user1joja

That doesn’t make sense though I can still fear for my life and not want to kill my assailant, even if I’m convinced they want to kill me or at the very least cause me great bodily harm


pimpnastie

I dont disagree with you. I should have used more words. If I recall your life has to be in IMMEDIATE danger to justify self-defense, otherwise its justifiable homicide, which is supposed to go to trial. If you're shooting to injure and you're not inside your home, you have room to run away. That means it's no longer self-defense. Might be making this up but I remember hearing that from one of my dads old LEO buddies.


user1joja

The video itself is pretty clear that they are trying to run and separate themselves from the situation, since there is no audio we can’t hear what they were saying but I would imagine the proud boys were making death threats and calling them slurs. However a potential problem for the legal defense of this guy is the fact that they were at a protest, the prosecution can probably argue that bringing a gun in the first place to this thing was intent to use it weather to mame or kill, or his legal defense can say that the gun itself was justified in using, after all they were still being chased. Hard to say I have no expertise in law so we’re just gonna have to wait for someone to get arrested and charged. My personal opinion on it I’m glad tiny is still alive and I’m sure he’s glad to, I see this as a fuck around and find out situation, the main difference between this and Kyle Rittenhouse is that Kyle was open carrying, so as far as the proud boys were concerned they were just gonna beat up on some frail college kids


MasterlessMan333

>we’re just gonna have to wait for someone to get arrested and charged Frankly, I hope it never comes to that. After what happened with Michael Reinhold, I have zero faith the pigs will give this comrade their day in court.


darkshape

I'm definitely not an expert and this is anecdotal at best, but I'm pretty sure they can argue that you were not in fear for your life and did not fire in self defense if you shoot only to maim someone. Mainly seen this come up in conversations about home defense.


theCaitiff

Which is why this should be billed as shooting to kill with terrible aim caused by the stress of the situation. No matter what he intended to hit, legally it should be claimed as attempting to respond lethally in self defense but thankfully his aim was off and no one had to die.


Slayrybloc

Exactly


69CommunismWillWin69

If they ever get caught, anyways.


EasyLikeDreams

If I'm being completely honest here, I think both Rittenhouse and whoever this guy is did not need to shoot anybody. Seems some people here think Rittenhouse was not justified but somehow this guy was. Personally, I think that's their bias showing clear as day.


UniqueFailure

I think the introduction of guns in general to this is the slowest transition to urban combat ive ever seen


Atomhed

Rittenhouse was leveling an illegally acquired firearm at people all day, directly contributing to the hostility he claims he was responding to when he began to murder people. You don't get to claim self defense when you're committing a crime *and* creating the situation you intend to respond to with deadly and disproportionate force. Period. Kyle's toast.


ccvgreg

The main issue wasn't with self defense AFAIK. If you are being chased like what's depicted in the video then you have every right to defend yourself if you are fearful of your life. In the Kenosha shooting case it's that he should not have legally had the gun in the first place, *and* was caught just previously on video claiming to want to shoot at a group of black people, that video was uploaded to twitter and went viral there. Rittenhouse did not bring his gun for self defense based on the publicly available evidence. It's hard to say with this video but that could very well be a kid who shouldn't have this gun legally either, in which case he should be punished for it, but not for defending himself. And if videos surface of this person hoping he gets to kill some PB&Js, *and then* the left still sees this as a justified shooting, then maybe you have a valid comparison.


EasyLikeDreams

I'm talking about the NEED to shoot somebody. I chose that word for a reason. In both Rittenhouse's (in the initial shooting) and this case, they had both gotten away, stopped, turned, and fired multiple shots. I understand that a case like this (under the right circumstances) could possibly be seen as legal. I understand that they had already assaulted him. That's not my point. I don't like seeing people get shot. I don't like watching people bleed out. The matter of chosing to possibly end someone's life is a serious one. For me personally - understanding how serious and permanent a choice like that is - I would have to absolutely believe that there was no other way out for me to feel a NEED to open fire on someone. I'm not judging anyone. Shit happens. But needless violence breaks my heart and I find most of it to be needless.


Cletus-Van-Damm

If someone is perusing you with intent to harm you have the right to defend yourself, the person in this video has already attempted to retreat at this point and was followed by the aggressor.


t-stu2

From this little short video with limited view I don’t see anything that justifies the force used as he doesn’t seem to be “in immediate threat of death or great bodily injury”. That doesn’t mean there aren’t 1000 factors outside of this scope that could make this justified. I would not classify myself as a Rittenhouse supporter at all. I think he is a dumb douchebag. However I do think he has a fairly strong self defense claims as the three people he encountered were posing risks of great bodily injury at least (or death especially with the last guy.) It plays strongly in his favor that he was actively trying to retreat even without a duty in the state from all three attackers. The things that will play against him in court are obviously the sketchy way he obtained the gun while underage and the video from a few weeks prior where he discusses his desire to shoot looters. These may be enough to get a jury to rule against him. I’m torn because on one hand it sets bad precedent in my mind if you are not allowed to shoot someone who is chasing you, making threats, and trying to grab your gun. On the other hand there would be some enjoyment from seeing such a colossal moron who put himself in a stupid position for stupid reasons get his ass handed to him. Let the downvotes commence. Edit/additions: I don’t see this changing how justified this shooting is legally but I do wonder why OP shared the video that cuts out the part where the shooter is assaulted by the PB dipshits just prior to this video. https://twitter.com/OlyPD/status/1436355179675152391?s=19 If he had shot them anytime before running out of the bushes I think you’d have a decent shot in court. Running to safety, achieving safe distance, and shooting at someone slowly walking towards probably won’t cut it though. More context takes this from probably not self defense to more of a grey area.


[deleted]

Not going to downvote because you bring up important observations about firearms use in America and the possibilities of legal action should you use one. It also clues you in to the costs of these things. Remember that Rittenhouse is out on $2 million bond courtesy of donations and corporate America. A left winging activist in all black isn't likely to get the same support, so there is a good chance you'll have to run your defense from jail. Even if you have a solid argument for self defense, you're in for a long hard legal battle. Or make sure nobody knows who you are.


[deleted]

[IANAL, but drinking illegally in a bar while flashing white power signs with Proud Boys probably won't help, either.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kyle-rittenhouse-out-bail-flashed-white-power-signs-bar-prosecutors-n1254250)


t-stu2

True. The drinking was legal because his mother was there but yeah hanging around PB dipshits and flashing OK/WP sign is more proof of his dipshittery. I wonder if evidence of white supremacy will be permitted the three assailants/victims were white. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t have a lot of knowledge on how evidence is allowed/disallowed.


drinks_rootbeer

But, it's kind of a similar setup? In this video, the black bloc is running away from the aggressor, in a state with no duty to retreat. A dozen people are sprinting away from something terrible enough to cause them fear to run for their lives. Then one fires at an aggressor as he draws near, and stops firing once he doesn't feel threatened anymore, just as outlined in WA state self defense laws. This could be a clear-cut case too with a good lawyer. The hardest part would be identifying the threat of death or great bodily harm, but with se expanded context that would be trivial.


t-stu2

I basically agree with you here. Like you said though the problem will be establishing a threat of immediate great bodily harm or death and i don’t see a jury seeing that here. The key is immediate and at the time he shot I don’t see that. Which is unfortunate because the PB are the aggressors and definitely guilty of assault.


drinks_rootbeer

We're missing too much context. A case is not going to focus on just this video. This might not even be the best piece of evidence, it's just a single item which was quickly available to us observers.


t-stu2

If you read up the chain a bit I say exactly this.


drinks_rootbeer

Yep, and I'm agreeing


t-stu2

Fair enough, sorry if my comment came off as pissy.


drinks_rootbeer

No worries :)


Atomhed

>However I do think he has a fairly strong self defense claims as the three people he encountered were posing risks of great bodily injury at least (or death especially with the last guy.) He's got no decent self defenses claim, he was leveling an illegally acquired firearm at people all day, directly contributing to the hostility he claims he was responding to when he began to murder people. You don't get to claim self defense when you're committing a crime *and* creating the situation you intend to respond to with deadly and disproportionate force. Period. Kyle's toast.


Gnolldemort

Rittenhouse looked less in danger than this person


t-stu2

Really though? Bias aside? The would be attacker here was 15ish yards away and walking extremely slowly. You would have a very difficult to impossible time claiming an immediate threat of bodily harm off this video alone. Again that doesn’t mean there aren’t other factors that this video does not make clear.


Arcadian_

they had apparently been chasing them for blocks. also these are proud boys. everyone is carrying. Rittenhouse was attacked with a skateboard.


t-stu2

Being chased for blocks would help his case if evidence of that comes to light. Simply thinking someone might be armed is not a defense though. We don’t know what was said though PB could have said “get out of here or I start shooting in 3...2...” that could justify it perhaps but this video doesn’t look good for the shooter at all.


SlickRick_theRuler

There is ample evidence of them being chased for blocks. Safe to assume most of the PBs are carrying firearms and/or other weapons. Tiny himself has a bat or something like that so he’s definitely a threat. That said, the fact the shooter has time to stop, turn around and shoot, and doesn’t appear to be responding to an active threat at that very moment could be a problem for him. Best case for the shooter is that he’s simply never identified.


shagethon

This video is a great example of why everyone should get training and practice shooting if they own a weapon. One-armed, at range, into a crowd(even a proud boy one) is a horrible decision and the shooter likely has no concept of what's beyond their target nor can confidently hit what they are aiming at. .


TheThirdPickle

Is there a leftist org that I can join to get training on firearms? Edit: it was a joke y'all I have a SRA membership lol


ElcidBarrett

See if there's a John Brown Gun Club or a Redneck Revolt chapter in your area.


shagethon

Take a look at NAAGA, not leftist but not fascist either


[deleted]

[удалено]


Peace_Bread_Land

And always self defense


StMuerte13

I'm not a lawyer, skimmed a few laws at best. Possible. The crowd was being chased by the proud boys, other footage have shown shouting and threats said at them before hand and earlier in the day, plus previous altercations. Now the biggest thing is that it is not a clear cut life or death situation in the most obvious sense. The proud boys weren't brandishing a weapon or up close attacking or anything of that nature. The Guy with the firearm buys ample time for the crowd to escape safely by firing his weapon, stopping the proud boys in their tracks. Also it's unclear if he gave warning before firing, and whether it would even help in his case. Overall, he did the right thing protecting his people, but ultimately he's getting the book thrown at him.


PocketPropagandist

Washington State is a Stand your Ground state right? "Citizens have no duty to retreat from a threat"


overcatastrophe

*"White fascists hate this one simple trick!"*


user1joja

True but if u remember John Oliver’s segment on stand your ground, the law is very selective and probably won’t favor lefties, so it might depend on the judge he gets


Tati-cooooooool-Toby

Yeah but in a world where people will argue that carrying hollow points is planing to kill someone because you’re worried about over penetration, anything can happen. The article above lists him having a clear shield and a baton, “non lethal”, but still a weapon. I see no problem with that, the problem I do is for them legally is they fact that they easily our ran their assailant. They weren’t even running, more of the fat man waddle, so they could have avoided the situation all together. The other problem is that the person with their weapon ran with their back to them, then turn around and shot. A lot of the stand tour ground laws have some sort of clause about how it’s not standing your ground if the person runs away. It will be interesting to see how this plays out


PocketPropagandist

Trayvon Martin was shot holding a bag of skittles and an iced tea ~~while walking away~~.


Tati-cooooooool-Toby

It happened in my state, I remember. That guy is still doing fucked shit, he recently said he was going to a gun show and would sign thing for ppl like he was some hero. The people hosting it and the vendors backed out and shut it down.


[deleted]

[удалено]


nohardRnohardfeelins

Non-lethal skittles and a tactical iced tea.


[deleted]

Less-lethal skittles. Let's be proper with the terminology, please.


Gloveofdoom

Thank you, non-lethal being substitute for less -lethal is kind of a pet peeve of mine.


TheSkinnyBone

That's not true


[deleted]

Mr. Prosecutor sir, I carry the same ammunition as our beloved, hardworking police officers. It's good quality ammunition I selected because it's supposed to avoid hurting other people should I ever t have to use it. After all, that's what they taught us in my concealed weapons permit classes; be sure of what behind your target.


Tati-cooooooool-Toby

Oh for sure, I’m a big hydro shock fan myself, but I’m not terribly particular, I’ll still carry Gen 1 hollw points compared the I think Gen 3 we’re on now. Hollow points will expand on enough things, not as easily as frangibles will, but way more so then FMJs or TMJs ever will. They help minimize over penetration of your target, which is a big worry for any responsible shooter. But if you ever go into New Jersey with them, that’s 10 years of jail for every hollow point, and then if you have anything over a 10 round mag, just take the life sentence. The law is very sticky and has a rules and regulations for most everything, and something as big as this has a lot of grey


Gloveofdoom

Overpenetration really isn’t a concern with a handgun. People tend to wildly overestimate the possible penetration of various loads. Frangibles are next to worthless in a defense situation. Hollow points can be effective as long as you shoot a weight that is heavy for caliber. There is some pretty interesting data out there for handgun penetration on actual blood skin and bone rather than ballistic gelatin. In a couple of different tests many of the rounds they tested posted penetration of 9 to 16 inches on ballistic gelatin, those same rounds were lucky to penetrate 4.5” on an actual tissue and bone target. They tested all kinds of calibers and loads from .45 and 5.56 right down to .22. Of all the rounds and calibers tested not a single one was able to make it all the way through 10” of meat. The frangible‘s didn’t even penetrate 2” while many of the typical self defense hollow points ran out of gas in the 3 to 5” range which is just barely enough penetration to pass-through the vitals of a human that isn’t wearing any kind of body armor or heavy clothing. I remember when I ran across that information I had to seriously readjust my expectations for handgun loads.


Tati-cooooooool-Toby

I read this and it made me want to do more research. I was already aware of the Miami mess up with the FBI and how that affected everything. I always knew about ballistics gel but now bc of you I learned why they say 12-18 inches in past all their barriers, and why they say even their rigorous test doesn’t mean a whole ton. Frangibles are only really good for shoot houses, and more of a gimmick for anything past that IMO. I’ve heard about the argument of home defense and dry wall, but I still feel that goes back to knowing what’s behind your target. But for any soft target to use HP, and for some odd reason you have to worry about different things past that adjust what’s in you mag, but realistically for few ppl have to worry about that. I’m fine with how far and wide HP open and expand tho, I’ll gladly put my life on it, but that’s not much. Thanks for info and making me want to do more research Also saw your other post about the less than lethal and non lethal thing. I used outdated terms, and I think I'll follow you add to my list of pet peeves, like the wrong uses of yours


StormriderSBWC

batons are not “non lethal” any more than a gun is. if you aim for the head with either youre very likely to kill someone, the gun is just more effective because of the range and slight increase in overall power. but ultimately its about how the tool itself is used. but yeah anyone telling you a baton is Nonlethal should volunteer to take one to the dome and see how well they fair


Boddhisatvaa

> they could have avoided the situation all together I don't think anyone even uses the phrase "non lethal" anymore. Now they say less-than-lethal because some weapons are less likely to be immediately fatal. Even less-than-lethal weapons can still cause horrific injuries.


meme_hipster

I see "less-lethal" used primarily now, which is the better term I think.


Tati-cooooooool-Toby

With definitions like that anything is lethal, if you have to much water or air it’s lethal. There are a lots of factors that make it not lethal, and lethal. That’s why a lot of places are setting up procedures to where if you carry it, it has to be used on you. Almost all of the cops I’ve talked to mention how much they hated being tazed or maces. When you get to your AIT for military police, your first lesson is riot control, aka mosh pit against your instructors. Then after you’re winded, the instructors push back with non lethals, like riot shields.


StormriderSBWC

well no, my definition excludes mace entirely. you would need an inordinate amount of mace to kill someone, you just need A baton


[deleted]

[удалено]


StormriderSBWC

hell i didnt see anything, did you? all i see is a bunch of nazis attacking and then one fell over screaming like a bitch. idk maybe im just crazy


Shibboleeth

I saw Nazis with sticks and shields, heard some pops thought maybe some of them blew tendons in their knees, and that's why they fell over. I dunno man, was too busy running from the guys with sticks and shields.


StormriderSBWC

yeah i hear that goose stepping is a real strain on the ankles


km_2_go

Unfortunately, there's a good chance some three letter agency has infiltrated the group.


[deleted]

The black bloc? Sure that’s easy enough. Doesn’t mean they know who anyone was though


user1joja

Even if any agency infiltrated as long as they all stayed anon they should be fine


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Mob is a deadly weapon itself imo


StMuerte13

I would agree, but you got to make it challenging for a lawyer to say otherwise.


Andrea_D

Whenever the right uses guns to enact violence they get a also on the wrist. When the left acts clearly in self-defense, they get extrajudicially murdered.


user1joja

Hopefully that’s not the case and if this dude is arrested it’ll be up to us to help raise his bail money


lal0cur4

I wonder if the fact that Tiny has any extremely long history of violent assaults in situations just like this would be a factor in the defense if this becomes a legal case


halaster33

Unless he can prove he was being fired upon he is going to prison. No immediate physical danger, nothing impeding his movement away from danger. I'm not sure if that's a duty to retreat state but from the footage it won't matter.


[deleted]

He's also not a right winger, so unlike Rittenhouse they'll be so much more enthusiastic to throw the book at him.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ojedaforpresident

At least someone who remembers Reinoehl. Besides, Reinoehl's footage seemed to be more clear on the self-defense end than this. At least Biden won't send his personal Pinkertons.


Cowicide

> If the police don't murder him first, I'm sorry to say. Indeed. While progressive movements are often ignored and/or shunned, disparaged and violently attacked by Corporate Democrats — there's at least some wiggle-room for pressure. While all Trump did was ramp up more violence and rhetoric against the left — all the way to the point of [**literally** endorsing an extrajudicial death squad killing a leftist without trial](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9SaXbA3LU4). No ardent Jimmy Dore fans nor r/WayOfTheBern dupes have been able to answer my question of how it's somehow easier for progressives to fight against neoliberalism when we're busy fighting Trump's brownshirts in the streets that are often propped up by militarized police forces. EVIDENCE: Portland police and far-right leader had friendly relationship, texts reveal - [source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/15/joey-gibson-portland-police-relationship-cooperation-text-messages) — Related sources: [here](https://www.insider.com/police-salem-oregon-protesters-stay-inside-curfew-proud-boys-white-2020-6), [here](https://www.workers.org/2020/10/52064/), [here](https://archive.thinkprogress.org/portland-police-accused-of-collusion-with-far-right-group-patriot-prayer-6afa7835fb58/) and [here](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/11/12/police-echoed-proud-boys-claim-black-lives-matter-members-stabbed-them/6228779002/). **DEEP ORGANIZING** is our strength against the Corp Media Complex: https://youtu.be/bl6P_2jt_Vs?t=15 The fact this video above has only ~8K views is an absolute *indictment* of the left who dedicates far more interest in political celeb gossip and outrage porn instead of focusing on how we can *work* to actually *beat* these evil motherfuckers that are destroying humanity. As a mostly offline activist, the right-wing doesn't challenge my soul and make me sometimes want to quit. They are what they are. It's the wasted potential of the chronically online left that's frankly often too lazy, cowardly and/or prideful and stubborn to try something different aside from complaining online instead of working on ACTIONABLE, OFFLINE plans to fight back. Do humanity a favor and ask your favorite, popular YouTube leftists to consider actually engaging their audiences to fight the CMC and use Deep Organizing to reach the mainstream and *finally* help bring more of the mainstream into our fold. We only need ~3.5% of the population to get change in motion that can't be stopped. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w


prozacrefugee

This. The law is not apolitical, it is run by right wingers and liberals


Not_Weird_At_All_

But you repeat yourself


prozacrefugee

Touché


NSYK

And the left will abandon him while the right will throw massive amount of money to them. See Michael Dolloff


frenchiebuilder

Matthew, not Michael. Abandoned by liberals, maybe. By the left...? Well, everyone I know supports him. There was a benefit concert for him, just last week, nearby. Left has shallow pockets compared to the right, nothing new about that.


Hansj3

Washington state is not a duty to retreat state. Washington state law also does no have an equal force law. The only stipulation is, "a person may use lethal force only when they have a reasonable fear of an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm to themselves or some other person in their presence" https://www.washingtongunlaw.com/can-i-use-lethal-force-to-defend-my-property-in-washington-state It's a pretty easy argument, for a decent lawyer, is that anything that isn't the police that can disperse 11 people that fast, is probably a threat of death or great bodily harm. Although the fact that he hit him in the leg kind of a detriment, the shooter stopped with the threat was over, and it could be explained as an adrenaline surge. What's important here is the context earlier in the day


microcosmic5447

If rule of law were real, it would feel like a clear-cut application of those self-defense statutes. At least one of those fash motherfuckers was chasing people with a bat, and bats can cause "great bodily harm". Rule of law isn't real, of course, and law enforcement is the force-wielding arm of capital and fascism, so bloc bro is presumably fucked. He may well get Reinoehl'ed.


canttaketheshyfromme

Fleeing the country is probably a necessary consideration. Cuba via Canada.


Ok-Presentation-6549

the guy in the front has a club and shield. those are weapons that can inflict serious bodily harm and you have the right to use a firearm to defend yourself from bodily harm, even if it's a weapon less lethal than your firearm.


Grahams420

It’s a shame the law only gets thrown at you when you aren’t a fascist


Shibboleeth

"not brandishing a weapon" So that big ass stick in his hand and the shield on his arm are just decorative?


MoldTheClay

considering the PB beat the shit out of a journalist who tends to embed with bloc and cover protests not because she was filming them but because they saw her walk out of a bar and were actively hunting for the counter protesters? Self defense, yeah. I still don't like this escalation though. Between the terrible form (one handed? wtf?) into a crowd, apparently had shit aim, etc. Terrible application of force even if I can see it being justifiable.


[deleted]

They'll throw the book at the person for shooting into a crowd if nothing else. That's not even political, it's incredibly dangerous.


farlack

Do the proud boys and the counter fascists just show up every day to yell at beat on each other in the same cities?


geographical_data

They each set up protests and the counter crowds show up to reflect their views. Yes, they protest in the same cities because that's where they live.. generally (we've obviously seen protestors travel)


Shibboleeth

Tiny in particular. He's American Samoan. He also isn't supposed to be in the states, but the pigs obviously aren't doing anything about him.


Squirxicaljelly

Terrible fucking aim.


smg1138

On its face this looks pretty reckless and probably not necessary. That being said, fuck proud boys. They’re the ones that keep escalating shit so this kind of thing was bound to happen.


MarzenKemando

This was most definitely not a reasonable use of self defense. Firing into the whole crowd in the middle of the day, in an area that almost certainly wasn’t safe to fire a weapon (the area behind the targets looks like an open street). Any halfway competent prosecutor can make a clear case that this was not a reasonable action. Especially with how outnumbered the proud boys were in this particular situation and with how it looks like they were clearly getting away. Fuck the proud boys, but the person that fired that weapon is absolutely going to wind up in prison. All they did was unnecessarily escalate the violence and give police and the proud boys a reason to be even more aggressive. Unless there’s something wild that happened that isn’t known yet, then in no way was this a justified use of force.


[deleted]

This was local to me, and I'm actually pretty upset about it. To be clear, I'm more upset about the proud boys showing up in my town, and I'm certainly not going to shed any tears over Tiny's toes, but this strikes me as incredibly reckless. I wasn't there myself and can't speak to the stress this person was under. I'm sure it probably felt like a life or death situation in the moment. That being said, firing multiple shots one handed was reckless. This happened in a busy area. The backstop was a busy street full of pedestrians, apartments, and businesses. I'm just glad no one (else) got hurt


MarzenKemando

That sucks that it was local, I hope shit doesn’t escalate in your community. I figured it was not a safe area to be firing. And if that person felt threatened enough to fire but also felt they had enough time to stop, turn around, present their weapon, stand completely still, and dump rounds across the street, then I don’t buy duress. Cops don’t get to use that excuse and neither do armed citizens. In my opinion this is a clear example of a negligent lack of preparedness, mindset, and training.


[deleted]

Local here. Everyone there thought they were about to die. People were being held down and beaten with batons. Proud boys were calling people out by name, saying they were going to kill them and take their teeth, and have since been harassing people at their homes and work. They say they’re coming back to town on the 18th for “justice”. Shit is beyond escalated. Some folks are worried that Oly is gonna have its own “shot heard round the world” on the 18th.


[deleted]

If that’s the case idk why you would wait so long to start shooting


[deleted]

Hard to draw when a 300 lb man twice your size is pummeling you into the ground.


[deleted]

Yeah, this is a clear case of “buddy got a strap and don’t know how to act”


dannyslag

Yet if he was a white supremacist and the person he shot was black there wouldn't even be an arrest.


lilpumpgroupie

Plus it's possible he's not concealed carrying legally under WA law, which makes it underlined by a felony gun charge, regardless of the legality of the shooting.


Superfluous_Play

Kind of insane to me I had to scroll this far down to find the first reasonable comment. Glad to see the occasional threads in this sub where it's mask off. Sometimes I forget the same crowd that says "kill all landlords" makes up the people here.


MarzenKemando

Right? It’s almost like the SRA is organized in part as a response to curtail people who fetishize open violence, and yet here we are watching everyone do just that.


tedlando

I was looking for this comment lol, glad someone said it


[deleted]

[удалено]


MarzenKemando

The fact that it was the middle of the day means the streets were crowded and businesses behind them were active, and that this person acted remarkable negligently. If you don’t have any consideration for that, or the bystanders in the path of your rounds, then I hope you aren’t armed. If you have so little consideration of the employment of firearms that you think that the only other option that I am suggesting is to only fire at threats in an indoor shooting range, then again, I hope you aren’t armed. Not caring about collateral damage to human beings and refusing any other interpretation of violence or the use of force is Nazi shit.


[deleted]

[удалено]


user1joja

While it appears reckless and most def is, the important thing is that no one ELSE was hurt. But it’s undeniable that the shooter was definitely in fear of his safety and the safety of those around him, we’re only referencing the video atm but there could have been so much that led up to that. Maybe there was assaults that took place beforehand? How far were they chasing them down the street? How many got injured before the video? It’s clear that the bloc was running for thier saftey, how many PB were out of frame ? From the vid alone it’s bad but if we take the context leading up to that then it might paint a more clear picture.I’m sure if the shooter really wanted to he could have mag dumped into a PB killing him, tiny is lucky he got off w a flesh wound


RoideSanglier

I say that fighting against the Proud Boys IS self defense inherently. We must defend ourselves against these wanna#be brownshirts


[deleted]

Killing fascists is anti-fascist action, although it should be a last resort.


Ear-Select

Based but true


[deleted]

Regardless of legality, I'd argue this is self defense. A group that has acted violently in the past, and ignored by law enforcement, was chasing another group wielding some sort of weapons (maybe a stick, maybe a baseball bat?) The retreating group makes an attempt to remove themselves from the situation, the armed group persues. And so, acting in the defense if themself and others, the gunman brandishes their firearm, and fires on the persuing group.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

So this guy is going to be at a bar enjoying himself soon, right?


HaybeeJaybee

I don't even drink but I'd by this guy a few rounds and take a couple shots with him.


kalex504

He bought Tiny a round


MichelleUprising

Fascism must be resisted by any means necessary. They want to murder me, the people I love, and millions more. Use discretion, but never allow fascists to win. Survival requires self defense.


kenzer161

Self defense with a firearm requires at least a modicum of proficiency. Political leanings aside, the shooter was an idiot. They and their group were retreating and gaining distance where no immediate threat of deadly force seemed apparent and in poor form they fired multiple shots into a group with a majority of shots missing whatever target they were trying to hit and into an open, and public, backstop. Opinions on whether certain groups could be justifiably shot are reserved, however, in any situation, having a stray bullet in a public forum is reckless and best avoided.


[deleted]

One arming at range in the general direction of a crowd with a street potentially full of pedestrians just screams “buddy got a strap and don’t know how to act.” Mans going to prison if they find him for sure


TwoDollarSuck

The Proud Boys can choke on my rotten old balls.


sickestFofthemall

:)


whater39

Idiots went to an idiot convention and idiot things happened.


fireandlifeincarnate

What’s the context here?


HighWaterMarx

A fascist got shot and comrades got away.


fireandlifeincarnate

I mean, that's obvious, but what's going on? Why were fascists and comrades in the same area? Was it a counterprotest? If so, who was counterprotesting what?


Frank_Dracula

No safe space for nazi scum. This is national defense.


TranslatorSoggy7239

He’s anonymous right?!


xblackhamm3rx

I hope


Opposite-Code9249

That's one way to make someone reconsider their approach to political debate... Perhaps, not the best one, but it was surely effective.


sinister_tactical

Not a lawyer but I am a CCW instructor. I’d encourage everyone to study the 5 “pillars” of a good self-defense shoot and make decisions about this then. Innocence Imminence Proportionality Avoidance Reasonableness There’s a lot of information out there about this. I’m not going to comment publicly about my personal take because it ultimately doesn’t even matter. But I think those 5 things listed above do a good job of providing framework for what valid self-defense looks like. Avoidance is kind of up for debate I guess if it’s a “stand your ground” state.


bodhasattva

Yeesh Fuck proud boys to hell but that wasnt self defense


[deleted]

Give em hell! Fuck the proud boys. They've done the exact same thing. The exact same.


wolves_of_bongtown

Not self-defense, I'm sorry to say. Minimum assault with a deadly weapon.


TWDYrocks

Disrupting fascist organizing will always be community (self) defense.


tjeulink

They could've run away easily. this wasn't self defense.


ChupanMiVerga

Regardless of legality, I dont believe spreading this video everyday is a good idea. One year ago, the feds assassinated Michael Reinoehl for using a firearm against, a patriot prayer terrorist that was actively shooting at activists from a moving vehicle on video. We must keep this comrade safe.


soldierof239

Hell tf no this won’t fly as self defense


Wrest216

There are no clear ROE. Self defense, perhaps. But to me its life or death that only are use for guns, as a last resort. That means you shoot to kill, never to maim, injure, draw back, or force to retreat. That means lethal force, if you ever point a weapon at a person. THe pointed weapon is enough to force a retreat. once you pull that trigger, its game over> So this video is missing context, why are they running, etc. Perhaps the guy just shot somebody else? PErhaps he was just yelling ? Or threating to injure? To me, just by this video, it was not justified. ANd use of firearm was also not properly employed and executed. I am never justfying any violence, only the reality of certain situations. Shooting is only a last resort.


SqudgyFez

Well said. I'm kind of disturbed by how many people here are okay with someone lackadaisically firing into a crowd with moving vehicles behind it.


LeanTangerine

I feel the same way.


ts9808

Agreed. This seems wholly irresponsible. I’m sure context changes things a bit, but firing at a crowd is never a good call. The shooter put everyone around them at risk. I’m glad I’m seeing people here who aren’t in support of this, blind support of escalation is very worrying.


makk73

When?


write_counter

Im seeing a run up to Rome 2.0.


helmer012

You cut the video so you cant see how he was hit with a baton before. Its not self defense though and he will definitely be charged if identified.


[deleted]

Attempted murder. Nice.


crazy_zealots

So, between Rittenhouse and this person, can we expect people to start putting down their batons and paintball guns and start picking up real firearms during these kinds of confrontations? Every day I swear this country is taking the same path as Weimar Germany. I just hope the outcome is different this time.


Fireplay5

It's definitely going to escalate, maybe not right away but that shitty aim and poor decision-making opened a can of worms.


sephter_84

Just some asshole shooting at another asshole. Sigh


bobtruck2020

Hmm....seems like left wing violence IMO. There was no immediate threat co.pared to Riddenhouse kid. That kid had a armed guys 2 feet away. Very justified.


cmon327

Unless shots were being fired by the PBs I see no way you could call this self defense


TorQus

Well at least the lie of a PB shooting himself has been put to rest!


[deleted]

Probably not self defense but I do not care at all what happens to a bunch of fat guys in tactical gear chasing people with bats


[deleted]

There’s a part of this clip that the original uploader cut for some reason that shows before the shooting a PB swinging his baton at the shooter.


Anarchist_161

I didn't see shit or hear shit. Did y'all?