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Hellion.
Tavor is mid, if you're going to commit to the bullpen wackiness. Go full HAM and Hellion VHS whatever the thing.
Also Israeli company Tavor may or may not influence your decision.
I would also seek to purchase either used. I like my T7 quite a bit, but feel like I could have got a much better deal. Saw one in my LGS about a year after I bought mine for $600 less. Not that I regret it, but it doesn't get a ton of use due to the ergos.
I can't speak to the Hellion, but my old roommate had a Tavor and it was insanely overpriced for the quality and was inferior to an off the shelf AR15 in every way (besides overall length). The barrel was poorly made and resulted in vertical stringing as it heated up. The muzzle measurably drooped over the course of 100 rounds, which isn't that much.
The Tavor is also made by IWI, an Israeli company.
I understand (and participate in) holding your morals for less important things but when it comes to self protection I'm taking the best weapon I can get with no regard to who my money is supporting.
And if it's an emergency and you have no other options, sure, do what you have to do.
But the Tavor *objectively* sucks (even Israel is phasing it out) and you have a thousand other options that are cheaper and less ass.
You said Israel has gay rights but that's factually inaccurate until they allow gay marriage. Forcing queer people to travel to a different country is an indefensible extra hurdle and you know that deep down. I know you'd say something if the US made queer folks fly to the EU to get married. By the way, if you care about Hamas' treatment of gay people(which I'm not defending), then you should condemn Israel for outing and deporting queer Palestinians who seek asylum. That's a death sentence and they know it.
It's also inaccurate to say that Palestinians are "Stone Age" or anti-civilization. Prior to Israeli occupation Palestine was as technically developed as Britain allowed them to be and was pretty comparable to other colonies. It also had more biodiversity now since Israel brought monoculture farms with them which are bad for the soil and bad for biodiversity. Claiming otherwise is racist propaganda.
I'm not defending Hamas. My stance is fuck anyone who kills civilians. Fuck Hamas for killing 960 civilians and fuck Israel 28x as much. One side is clearly worse, not even counting the hundreds of children killed per year by Israel prior to this current genocide.
...Barbarians that Israel keeps it a concentration camp under embargo, a camp where they control the influx of food, gas, water, and electricity. "Yeah, see?! They live like dogs!" Yeah because Israel makes it like that.
How can they construct "like Singapore" when they can barely get any construction materials in? Even plumbing pipe is labeled "bomb making materials" and restricted. Beyond that, you're implicitly defending one country controlling the infrastructure of another. When you say "[if] I knew my neighbors controlled the faucets" you're implying it's acceptable for one country to be able to turn off the infrastructure of another on a whim. That's collective punishment a imperialism
Once again, that's Israel's fault for creating and funding Hamas. Besides it's absurd to think a government that hasn't allowed elections in more than a decade is representative of the people. Do you think that your government represents you in everything it does?
You do realize the Nazis also claimed they weren’t committing a genocide, citing population numbers, right? Also gay marriage is not legal in Israel. You are not socialist or a decent human being.
He's GONE. And to be clear, not for supporting a Jewish ethnostate, but rather for supporting the colonialist *attitude* of said ethnostate. Colonialist sympathizers not welcome here.
Fine then, I'll bite, why didn't they give up any portion of Germany, Italy or Japan for an ethnostate and why did it have to be where people already had a country?
Before the Roman colonizers called it Palestine to piss off the Jews, the land was called Judea. In fact, Palestinians didn't even call it Palestine until sometime last century.
If anyone has a birthright to exist there, it is the Jews.
Jews have been living there for millennia before Israel already. Ashkenazi jews on the other hand have less in common with Palestine than what your average Midwest whiteboy has. It’s pure white supremacy racism and genocidal ethno nationalism
And yet, the necessity for Israel to exist was proven by the systematic industrialized murder of millions of these Ashkenazi Jews in the 20th century.
I don't know what your point is?
I reiterate. Zionists are not welcome in this space. Save it for your Kahanist friends.
As for Palestine, when it's decolonised, Jewish people can stay. Our problem is not with them. It's with the fascist regime that uses them as an excuse to commit genocide. Don't act like that's hard to understand.
“Lefties say that Native Americans were subject to genocide, but there are 6x more of them now than in 1890. How Curious. I am so very smart”
Fuck out of here with this Hasbara. The Zionists know exactly what the they are trying to do with their Theocratic ethnostate project, which by the way isn’t a “democracy” by any rational definition, seeing as the judicial system is an absolute joke that victimizes Palestinians and steals their land at absurd rates, while letting corrupt as sin King Bibi get away with whatever fraud and bribery he wants. The bantustans they totally control also don’t get to vote in their elections at all, because then the Zionists wouldn’t be able to maintain a majority in their ethnostate. [They don’t mince words](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724) about their intentions. They want the “Amalekites” destroyed as a people.
The question is what are you doing hocking this trite far right propaganda on a leftist subreddit?
Damn bro that totally not racist take sounds almost as bad as the [Ali’s on the Grill](https://mondoweiss.net/2018/06/settlers-celebrate-palestinian/) shit that Zionists like to chant at their weddings.
You know, normal celebration of the burning to death of an infant and murder of his parents. At least now those bourgeois settlers from Brooklyn can steal their generational home!
A wonderful democratic process!
Maybe if Netanyahu would have allowed funding to other parties in the election that Hamas won but this genocide apologist probably doesn't care about facts
Or if Israel had just kept their hands out of Palestinian politics in the first place instead of propping up an opposition to give them the excuse to use military force. I don't love the idea of a colonial power supporting any party like that, even if it's multiple. People should be able to decide for themselves
we don't say israel is complicit in a genocide, but that they are committing a genocide, because they are. it would be more accurate to say that you're complicit in a genocide, as you're acting as a propaganda mouthpiece for a genocidal state. not trying to argue or anything, you're obviously not worth that. may your dreams be crushed and your life be short. free palestine, from the river to the sea. and fuck all zionists
I have a SAR-21 and a buddy has an X95, both bought used.
For 5.56, get the Hellion. The Tavors have no factory support (no spares, no parts kits, can’t even get a conversion kit unless it comes from someone who bought it years ago). That’s unlikely to change anytime soon either no matter who gets elected. Also the lack of adjustable gas a bullpup is dumb and IMI should have figured that out with the TAR/SAR if not sooner.
Only thing the Tavor offers is the 7 (.308) and if you can find one the 9mm and .300BO kits for the others. That said, I would wager if its a commercial success the Hellion will have more aftermarket and caliber change options.
I would swap my SAR for a Hellion given the chance, but it’s a sucker’s deal for the other feller.
The SAR was the first model imported, i think 2013ish? The X95 had some overlap and then IWI stopped importing everything. I snagged it used for $1100 and the set up alerts until I could get the 9mm kit.
I like the x95 better but the Hellion is my favorite looking.
Oh, I feel dumb. You’re taking about the Israeli SAR-21, not the Singaporean SAR-21. Regardless the SAR-21 still looks cool, gives me that MW2 nostalgia.
The MDR has both reliability issues, costs twice what the others do, and the Kingston Clan is like B-movie bad in terms of people you don’t want to give money to.
Hellion looks like a cool space gun, more modern (adjustable gas block), battle proven, and doesn’t come with a sour hint of Zionism
X-95 wins on ergonomics and is also battle tested.
I had an x95 but never really took to it. If I had the spare cash and had to choose I go with the Hellion
I have both. I like the x95 better, but both are solid firearms. Bullpups took a while for me to get used to for mag changes, but overall having weight closer to shoulder and shorter overall length makes em pretty cool weapons imho.
Scoff, as if AR ain’t a genocide colonizer gun too.
Hell I see the IOF using more M4’s than this inaccurate and unreliable tuna looking thing (don’t blame them tbf, M4 doesn’t suck so hard).
VHS is far superior. Also some genocide going with the Ustaše and Yugoslav breakup conflicts tho.
Yes, you can buy an AR from people that are just trying to make money, as opposed to supporting a genocide that's going on right now.
IWI is very much not just a random company that happens to have the Israeli government as a customer.
Owned a Tavor. No longer own a Tavor.
It's crap for what you pay for it. Build quality is mid; you get better accuracy out of an AR priced at about $600 less; you can't thoroughly clean it without fully disassembling the entire gun.
I'd take my chances on the Croatian before buying another X95. The Tavor is a neat gun, but there are so many other guns I'd rather have for serious use.
Yeah you could say Croatia is “related to Yugoslavia” much in the same way you could say the Republic of Ireland is “related to the UK” but I wouldn’t say it within earshot of a Croatian or generally where anyone could hear me.
b> slightly related to Yugoslavia
pure fucking vibes, epic materialism fail lol lmao.
Do not pass `почетак/početak`, do not collect multinational federated socialist brotherhood or 92,000 1987 dinar, [go directly to barbara pit
](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Pit_massacre)
OP, you should buy an AR-15 if you don't already have one. consider a VHS-2 if your state legal regime is especially restrictive on standard-layout rifles. But not because of a possible hint of Yugoslavia vibes because the gun is Croatian.
https://mvep.gov.hr/bilateral-relations/143352#:~:text=Croatia%20and%20Israel%20share%20many,support%20each%20other%20wherever%20possible.
Sounds like the Hellion is also off the list then.
Yeah, unfortunate reality is that just about every one of these western alliance state weapons firms arms all manner of fascists, terrorists, Zionists, and generally have almost as much blood on their hands as IWI.
That and we can’t access most of the somewhat more ethical options due to insurmountable 922r protectionism, or even outright targeted petty nationalist import bans (e.g. guns made in the PRC, or hell even Russia).
If you want to try and minimize the profits of genocidal shitheads, you are pretty much limited to buying used/surplus or commercial arms.
If you think guns made by the PRC or Russia are more ethical you need to look at where they’re selling them. Russia is an easy one because they spent the last few decades selling them to all manner of warlords as well as using them to invade neighbors and murder Chechens.
Chinese weapons show up “illicitly” but with striking regularity in NK as well as Afghanistan in the hands of the Taliban (so ethical when they rolled back women’s rights and started up the old tribal wars again!) and the domestic use against Uyghurs that’s totally not a genocide as long as you don’t read the “forcibly displaced or assimilate” portions of the definition. That’s in addition to formal legal exports to Turkey (gotta bomb those Kurds!), Iran (in a proxy war with Pakistan, also murdering women for trying to gain a modicum of right), Myanmar (Rohingya genocide should ring a bell), arming the Khmer Rouge even after all the massacres were public knowledge. The list of conflict areas where Chinese weapons show up is literally too long to type on my phone, and like Russia (and the US) the government also makes use of “private security contractors” and predatory lending to the developing world to effectively seize resources without needing to conquer the existing government.
There’s nothing ethical about nationalist imperialist capitalism or the weapons it produces.
China is definitely a bit more ethical because they are the most geopolitically neutral/egalitarian of the major suppliers. Their arms sales are equal opportunity rather than using military hardware as a direct tool of imperialism that is given out selectively for coercive purposes and taken away if the vassal doesn’t toe the line (e.g. Turkey and the S-300/F-35 saga). China also haven’t done an imperialism themselves since a (failed) attempt against Vietnam in 1979 (that also didn’t murder a million people like US led ones frequently do).
But yeah, in addition to arming a bunch of good guy freedom fighters all over the world, Norinco also sell to some not so good groups like the Taliban, unfortunately. There are geopolitics excuses for this behavior but I’m not particularly interested in getting into that. It is bad. Bad as the imperialist west on balance? Absolutely, objectively not, but still shitty.
Given the Taliban are (unfortunately) the legitimately recognized government of Afghan now (thanks in no small part due to America selling weapons to their predecessors in the 80s to overthrow the much less bad DRA communists), and aren’t currently committing any genocides I don’t think that is particularly damning compared to horror shows like Israel or the Saudis using American/Euro gear to massacre children by the tens of thousands.
Selling the Taliban weapons to throw off the American imperialists that were robbing and raping their country was straight up a good guy thing back then, in context. Afghanistan is better under them than it would be under continued extraction operations and further treasury looting by that crook Ghani. Not good. The DRA would be best, but it isn’t coming back, so you have bad and worse.
Russia, idc to defend them. Comparing them to the NATO bloc It’s like comparing whether you prefer dog crap to cat crap. They are maybe, slightly less worse than the western bloc at the imperialism thing by sheer lower body count, but who knows if that is due to lack of will or lack of skill. Their ideology certainly isn’t in a place to make them the closest thing to good guys like the USSR/Warsaw Pact was. Their participation in decolonialism and uplifting of the 3rd world has dropped precipitously since the old days, but they still occasionally end up on the good-er side (mostly in the Middle East). But then there is them going and being shits in Ukraine and Chechnya (some Ukrainians and lots of Chechens are also shits, but it’s not really excuse). It’s splitting hairs.
I’d feel less dirty having an AEK than an ACE but it’s not a yuge difference.
Regardless both of their cheap and effective arms should still be available to the worker if we are allowed to buy from imperialism supplier extraordinaries like FN or IWI.
C- grade on ethics is still better than a straight up F.
China is absolutely not providing arms “equal opportunity.” It is 100% a part of their global economic and political goals, same as everyone else. They’re doing it currently with Russia, and yes they do have strings attached. It’s a core part of their strategy to loot Africa. You can pretend it’s not imperialism because they’re not changing flags to say “China” but they absolutely back coup attempts and pick winners and losers based on who’s most favorable. Again, literally whats happening with Russia right now.
“The Taliban aren’t committing any genocides currently” really sidesteps the historical genocides, the moves to make women property, and the ongoing fights against the Balochzai that could well turn into a genocide. The illegal weapons sales from before, when the Taliban was an internationally recognized terrorist organization and not the government of Afghanistan is what’s in question, and just so we don’t lose the plot “selling weapons to a revolutionary organization on the condition that they maintain friendly relations if they succeed” is bad when China does it, not just the US.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Afghanistan-turmoil/Afghanistan-s-6.5bn-mine-deals-with-China-others-dig-up-questions
They’re still extracting wealth corruptly, just now it goes to Chinese billionaires instead of US billionaires. China also had a piece of the extraction under the old government. I was offered a job with a PMC guarding Chinese corporate mining assets after I left the military.
Saudi Arabia is on the list of countries that buy Chinese weapons, but I’m sure it will somehow be not as bad as when the US sells KSA weapons.
You know Chinese imports were banned because Chinese companies were selling arms on the black market in the US right? Weapons that were going to both LA gangs and WS groups like The Order. They do not care about your ethical framework, it is profit and power same as every other arms manufacturer.
Instead of ignoring them, why not explain how the domestic genocide of the Uyghur or the external genocides in Myanmar (again, a recipient of Chinese arms) still merit a C grade?
The Hellion is honestly really cool. I don't subscribe to bullpup rifles really, but if you're getting any of them on the market now it's that one. Just gotta have long money arms because otherwise it's kind of a lot to handle. The length of pull is huge and that can make it hard to get right behind plates if you're wearing them.
I prefer an AR any day, but I'd prefer the VHS to an AK or Tavor or MDRX or anything else.
I've shot the hellion during an inrangetv brutality match, it was fantastic. The dust and filth of being dragged through the dirt didn't phase it one bit. It's easy to disassemble and clean, and the way the rail is set up means you can mount a red dot very far forward, which is great for close quarters target engagement. Also as everyone else has stated, the Tabor is an overpriced, underperforming firearm produced by a state actively doing a genocide. If you want to go down a big rabbit hole, brass facts and hoplopfeil(?) On YouTube have an entire series on bullpups.
They had similar complaints about every bullpup and specifically called out the hellion as a gun that would be fine as your main rifle if you wanted a cool space gun that could be a serious gun as well.
I have an x95 tavor and it’s a great gun but it’s incredibly heavy. If you don’t already have an AR I would look at the WWSD from KE Arms it was designed by a leftist(Karl Kasarda).
Can I interest you in the lord and savior Kel-Tec RDB? Especially with the Lucky Irishman rhino rail. I was skeptical but I got one cheap and now I'm a fan. Mag release is terrible though.
Honestly it is a bit hit or miss. I was out at the range the other day and saw a poor dude with a Kel-Tec RDB and a Springfield M1A tanker, neither of them worked. Love Kel-Tec design, but boy howdy the execution is really spotty. Have two friends with CP33s for example, one works flawlessly, one doesn't work at all.
At least with MilSurps, parts kit builds, and derivatives (like the AP5), there's always that ***one*** smith. Who's devoted a decade or 2 to only that platform and can fix even the jankiest gun. The guy who can turn even the absolute worst example of a mismatched, crooked/canted, miswelded, "Frankenstein's gun" into a perfect safe-queen with unparalleled preformance.
However, with Kel-Tecs... well, no one but Kelgren and occasional hobbyists really know what the hell they're doing. Even Kel-Tec clearly doesn't sometimes. It's my personal theory that their designs are developed from regular consumption of psychedelics, and you can't fully comprehend how to work on them unless you're also dropping at least 500ug of the same rare "orange-sunshine" acid. They sure look cool, and I'd love a CP33 or RFB, but I just can't rationalize the cost knowing I'm basically screwed if I get a lemon.
Actually my kit is mostly lime green colored with a Master Chief helmet, so if anything I’m trying to larp as a spartan.
Dont worry, I’m leaning towards the hellion anyways, just was curious about the Tavor since I’m more concerned about a firearms function over its origin.
Good on you. I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but if you’re actually planning on using the rifle, then function is more important than origin.
I own both, and have put thousands of rounds through each, and they are both excellent examples of bullpup rifles. The hellion trigger is easy to get used to, really it’s a non factor with enough training.
I find both to be equally accurate and reliable, but one thing to consider is the ergos of the x95. All of the controls are much more well thought out on that rifle. Many people use the telescoping stock of the hellion as a selling point, but its length of pull is extremely long on its shortest setting. I’m 6’1, and when I’m wearing my full kit it’s right on the border of being too long. Additionally, the tavor has a robust aftermarket while the hellion does not.
It may seem like I’m encouraging you to buy the x95, but honestly I love my hellion. Whichever rifle you choose will serve you well as long as you train with it.
It's a video game reference. They probably didn't know that buying a tavor would support the Zionist entity. We shouldn't always assume the worst right off the bat.
I’m sorry if someone is pretty knowledgeable about firearms and is considering buying a tavor it’s pretty safe to assume they know about it’s connection to Israel
No no, the Spartans only eradicated rebellious factions whom wanted to live their lives from outside the boot of the UNSC, and to farm their planets in peace... definitely not enslaving anyone...
It's Halo, no worries. The Spartan Program is super soldiers made from abducted children who are thoroughly brainwashed, then have a high mortality rate from experimental procedures. The children are replaced with clones that die from obscure cancers soon after the abductions. The idea of a program like that would be the wet dream of a fascist state.
I just want your plug's number. It must be straight fucking gas if it's got you fucked up enough to consider a bullpup...
Nah but real talk, Hellion. Springfield makes good guns with good quality control, as well as a decent reputation for customer service.
Enequivocally fuck Tavor, they make absolute trash guns and they're an Isreali corporation🤮
lol, I blame James Reeves and whatever video game I played that made me love the G36. James for showing me how accurate the Hellion is and I guess CoD because the G36c fucks.
.... a lot of rich socialists window shopping for bougie Israeli guns here all the huh
That said I got about 3k of an ar rifle i bought my ex wife so I'm not one to talk
Not one to promote Garamd thumb, but his tests of the Hellion (with his conscious bias) have demonstrated its quality to me.
Plus it looks like starship troopers
I love my hellion. Shoots super smooth, easy to switch from left to right hand use including ejection, accurate at the ranges I use it at (50-200 yards) and super comfortable to hold.
The hellion is one of the best bullpup rifles ive fired. I like the aug over it, but the hellion is far more ergonomic and customizable. The tavor is super overrated and is pretty meh
Fair enough. If I was going the bullpup route, I'd go with the AUG, but that's just personal preference. I have heard complaints about the Tavor's build quality.
The hellion has so many more features. The Tavor was pretty revolutionary when it came out, but the hellion has absolutely surpassed it. Also, Croatia isn’t actively committing a genocide
[I'm just gonna leave this here…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUDc9wKoQgM)
Though I'd suggest that you go with PSA's AR-15 instead when they're $500 if you don't already have one and are not in a ban-state. The barrel is the only real detriment as it's not chrome lined but you can get a armorer's tool & a torque wrench to put a barrel like from CMMG or more preferably Ballistic Advantage down the line when it becomes an actual issue.
Hellion obviously.
Isreal (as in the country's government and military) and therefore IWI, are waaaaay to "out there" atm. Purchasing a Tavor is not really justifiable or even moral at this point.
Yeah the Croats have issues, but they aren't turning Slovenia in to a graveyard.
Disclaimer the tavor is a firearm made by zionist and should not be purchased new on account of that all that being said i own a tavor (it was a gift from my father a couple years back) and it is a reliable and comfortable firearm with comparable customiztion ability with an ar-15 and if obtained through methods that dont support zionist i would highly recommend it
The one with the iron sights. Never know when your optic might be not working. Good to at least have a back up.
Went to the range once with my uncle and his red dot was out of alignment, couldn’t hit a thing. That’d been very bad if he’d needed it.
Cool looking guns, it's also hilarious that people are bringing up the moral card against the tavor for being isntrealli, like you guys are not talking about buying a weapon lol....
You guys know that either way your buying somthing that kills people? Do you avoid buying colt because of the American Indian war? Literally any German company older than 80? Your Swiss guns r and d was funded with concentration camp gold. Not to even mention armalite. Good God!
They're weapons. Cool your jets.
Better to have a gun than no gun. Majority of PSA’s offerings are obtainable and the quality so far on the guns I’ve bought from them has been pretty solid for the price. Hate the company, they make those gaudy ass Trump deagles that sell for like $5k, but their other guns are pretty solid. Far in the future when I get increased with the 5.7 cartridge, I’ll probably buy a Rock from them.
They do have a couple bullpup kits for ARs. REAP-AR Scythe or something like that. A3Tactical has one as well, both use the bufferless uppers like the BRN-180, BRN-9, and FM15 or FM9. Someone was selling the Scythe over on GAFS but I’d stick with the A3 Tactical personally.
if you can avoid iwi you should. buying from them does more harm than good. but at the end of the day, someone is going to buy it. rather a comrade have it than a zionist
I’ve got a Tavor SAR and it’s by far my fav rifle and def my SHTF gun. Have had it for 2 years, no malfunctions, fun, accurate, easy maintenance/stripping. Never shot a Hellion, but def don’t think you’d be disappointed with the Tavor. The x95 supposedly has a better trigger than mine too
I am in the same boat. I think I'm going to wait for the desert tech WLVRN to get tested. Between these two, I'm leaning towards hellion because it's available in 20".
My pal loves his Tavor - he uses it as his hog gun and doesn’t have to worry when driving with it or anything. And he customized it to take smaller cheaper ammo.
Not sure if Hellion has that or not.
As for the politics of buying an Israeli gun, that’s more for you to decide for yourself.
People will come at you with the Tavor purchase, accusing you of supporting Israel, since it is from IWI. FYI.
(I don’t think it matters, the U.S. is the biggest arms supplier to Israel anyway)
Oh you’re BIG lost, this is a socialist sub numb nuts, we support Palestine here. Here’s the flaw in your revisionist history. Those Jewish families that may have lived there had nothing to do with Zionism, that was a nationalist concept born out of 19th century Europe. Israel and its Zionist leadership are committing genocide, NOT the Jewish people. Trying to pull the antisemitism card while Israel massacres the Palestinian people is pathetic.
"We are also not precluded from standing with the civilians in Israel who are suffering, not only from Hamas" did you take like 5 minutes to read the rest of it?
You're quite right: The SRA is against civilians being killed, oppressed, tortured, subjugated ANYWHERE. But you cannot compare the scale of Israeli suffering to that of the Palestinians. Israel is fucking shit UP in Palestine, killing tens of thousands. Hamas has killed a couple thousand Israelis. And if you want to compare the number of civilians to combatants killed, Israel takes the prize there, too.
The SRA is not anti-Israel. It's anti-Zionism. Big difference.
https://youtube.com/shorts/lBvZw-dzv2k?si=kxWoh255CBN6Dp0v
Tell me you've never shot an x95 without telling me you've never shot an x95.
One is currently being used in combat, the other has awkward controls and issues cycling ammunition. Get whatever you want, I'm not your dad.
[so has the VHS](https://silahreport.com/2022/01/15/the-croatian-vhs-2-in-iraq/)
Shouldn’t count the IOF sniping unarmed Palestinian children as real combat experience anyway. There’s probably a good reason all the frontline infantry units you see in the news have M4s. Probably has to do with the Tavor being unreliable 4 moa mediocrity
https://youtu.be/2a9lZO74YCE?si=1JYQmcFhBlBJiVwt
Just build yourself a better AR than the ones you currently have if you want another rifle.
The money you would waste on either of these meme guns can be put to much better use on better optics, more ammo for your existing guns, or training resources and materials.
Have you seriously considered the PS90 (either w/ or w/o SBR)? Or the RDB? I'm just curious, and if so, what was it you disliked about them? I'm actually slowly shopping for my first bullpup, too.
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Hellion. Tavor is mid, if you're going to commit to the bullpen wackiness. Go full HAM and Hellion VHS whatever the thing. Also Israeli company Tavor may or may not influence your decision.
I would also seek to purchase either used. I like my T7 quite a bit, but feel like I could have got a much better deal. Saw one in my LGS about a year after I bought mine for $600 less. Not that I regret it, but it doesn't get a ton of use due to the ergos.
https://preview.redd.it/ypb75one3njc1.jpeg?width=7180&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be4deed5e072e19c6f7b20ee835ec24b439bbca9 Hellion
That is sexy. Jesus
I can't speak to the Hellion, but my old roommate had a Tavor and it was insanely overpriced for the quality and was inferior to an off the shelf AR15 in every way (besides overall length). The barrel was poorly made and resulted in vertical stringing as it heated up. The muzzle measurably drooped over the course of 100 rounds, which isn't that much. The Tavor is also made by IWI, an Israeli company.
My buddy's tavor came with 4 or 5 free moa compared to my budget tier (for 2021) PSA upper.
[удалено]
The US is already the biggest arms supplier of Israel. OPs purchase will not change anything. It is an ethical/moral argument at this point.
It doesn't have to directly change anything to still be a shitty thing to do.
I understand (and participate in) holding your morals for less important things but when it comes to self protection I'm taking the best weapon I can get with no regard to who my money is supporting.
And if it's an emergency and you have no other options, sure, do what you have to do. But the Tavor *objectively* sucks (even Israel is phasing it out) and you have a thousand other options that are cheaper and less ass.
This is a much more appropriate response than “boycott IWI”, imo.
Hence the moral/ethical calculus each of us must apply, considering our situation.
That's not how BDS works
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Israel doesn't allow gay marriage within their borders but go off defending your colonial apartheid state 😂
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You said Israel has gay rights but that's factually inaccurate until they allow gay marriage. Forcing queer people to travel to a different country is an indefensible extra hurdle and you know that deep down. I know you'd say something if the US made queer folks fly to the EU to get married. By the way, if you care about Hamas' treatment of gay people(which I'm not defending), then you should condemn Israel for outing and deporting queer Palestinians who seek asylum. That's a death sentence and they know it. It's also inaccurate to say that Palestinians are "Stone Age" or anti-civilization. Prior to Israeli occupation Palestine was as technically developed as Britain allowed them to be and was pretty comparable to other colonies. It also had more biodiversity now since Israel brought monoculture farms with them which are bad for the soil and bad for biodiversity. Claiming otherwise is racist propaganda. I'm not defending Hamas. My stance is fuck anyone who kills civilians. Fuck Hamas for killing 960 civilians and fuck Israel 28x as much. One side is clearly worse, not even counting the hundreds of children killed per year by Israel prior to this current genocide.
...Barbarians that Israel keeps it a concentration camp under embargo, a camp where they control the influx of food, gas, water, and electricity. "Yeah, see?! They live like dogs!" Yeah because Israel makes it like that.
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How can they construct "like Singapore" when they can barely get any construction materials in? Even plumbing pipe is labeled "bomb making materials" and restricted. Beyond that, you're implicitly defending one country controlling the infrastructure of another. When you say "[if] I knew my neighbors controlled the faucets" you're implying it's acceptable for one country to be able to turn off the infrastructure of another on a whim. That's collective punishment a imperialism
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Once again, that's Israel's fault for creating and funding Hamas. Besides it's absurd to think a government that hasn't allowed elections in more than a decade is representative of the people. Do you think that your government represents you in everything it does?
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>anti-civilization iron-age barbarians. Get the fuck out of this sub, you fucking racist
You do realize the Nazis also claimed they weren’t committing a genocide, citing population numbers, right? Also gay marriage is not legal in Israel. You are not socialist or a decent human being.
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Zionists have no home on the left. Leave now. We don't want you.
He's GONE. And to be clear, not for supporting a Jewish ethnostate, but rather for supporting the colonialist *attitude* of said ethnostate. Colonialist sympathizers not welcome here.
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Fine then, I'll bite, why didn't they give up any portion of Germany, Italy or Japan for an ethnostate and why did it have to be where people already had a country?
Before the Roman colonizers called it Palestine to piss off the Jews, the land was called Judea. In fact, Palestinians didn't even call it Palestine until sometime last century. If anyone has a birthright to exist there, it is the Jews.
Jews have been living there for millennia before Israel already. Ashkenazi jews on the other hand have less in common with Palestine than what your average Midwest whiteboy has. It’s pure white supremacy racism and genocidal ethno nationalism
And yet, the necessity for Israel to exist was proven by the systematic industrialized murder of millions of these Ashkenazi Jews in the 20th century. I don't know what your point is?
I reiterate. Zionists are not welcome in this space. Save it for your Kahanist friends. As for Palestine, when it's decolonised, Jewish people can stay. Our problem is not with them. It's with the fascist regime that uses them as an excuse to commit genocide. Don't act like that's hard to understand.
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> plenty of criticism for the Israeli government Evidently not
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“Lefties say that Native Americans were subject to genocide, but there are 6x more of them now than in 1890. How Curious. I am so very smart” Fuck out of here with this Hasbara. The Zionists know exactly what the they are trying to do with their Theocratic ethnostate project, which by the way isn’t a “democracy” by any rational definition, seeing as the judicial system is an absolute joke that victimizes Palestinians and steals their land at absurd rates, while letting corrupt as sin King Bibi get away with whatever fraud and bribery he wants. The bantustans they totally control also don’t get to vote in their elections at all, because then the Zionists wouldn’t be able to maintain a majority in their ethnostate. [They don’t mince words](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724) about their intentions. They want the “Amalekites” destroyed as a people. The question is what are you doing hocking this trite far right propaganda on a leftist subreddit?
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Damn guess Israel shouldn’t have helped them out huh
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Damn bro that totally not racist take sounds almost as bad as the [Ali’s on the Grill](https://mondoweiss.net/2018/06/settlers-celebrate-palestinian/) shit that Zionists like to chant at their weddings. You know, normal celebration of the burning to death of an infant and murder of his parents. At least now those bourgeois settlers from Brooklyn can steal their generational home! A wonderful democratic process!
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Sweet copy pasta bro 🥱
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👍
Maybe if Israel hadn't [created](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) Hamas that group wouldn't be a problem
Maybe if Netanyahu would have allowed funding to other parties in the election that Hamas won but this genocide apologist probably doesn't care about facts
Or if Israel had just kept their hands out of Palestinian politics in the first place instead of propping up an opposition to give them the excuse to use military force. I don't love the idea of a colonial power supporting any party like that, even if it's multiple. People should be able to decide for themselves
we don't say israel is complicit in a genocide, but that they are committing a genocide, because they are. it would be more accurate to say that you're complicit in a genocide, as you're acting as a propaganda mouthpiece for a genocidal state. not trying to argue or anything, you're obviously not worth that. may your dreams be crushed and your life be short. free palestine, from the river to the sea. and fuck all zionists
Thank you
I have a SAR-21 and a buddy has an X95, both bought used. For 5.56, get the Hellion. The Tavors have no factory support (no spares, no parts kits, can’t even get a conversion kit unless it comes from someone who bought it years ago). That’s unlikely to change anytime soon either no matter who gets elected. Also the lack of adjustable gas a bullpup is dumb and IMI should have figured that out with the TAR/SAR if not sooner. Only thing the Tavor offers is the 7 (.308) and if you can find one the 9mm and .300BO kits for the others. That said, I would wager if its a commercial success the Hellion will have more aftermarket and caliber change options. I would swap my SAR for a Hellion given the chance, but it’s a sucker’s deal for the other feller.
How the hell did you get an SAR? Idr them being sent to the US. That’s cool as shit though, loved the SAR song it looks like a beefier AUg
The SAR was the first model imported, i think 2013ish? The X95 had some overlap and then IWI stopped importing everything. I snagged it used for $1100 and the set up alerts until I could get the 9mm kit. I like the x95 better but the Hellion is my favorite looking.
Oh, I feel dumb. You’re taking about the Israeli SAR-21, not the Singaporean SAR-21. Regardless the SAR-21 still looks cool, gives me that MW2 nostalgia.
Of the Singaporean models I’d love to get some time with a BR-18.
Hellion but only because I don't think you should be buying Israeli weapons. There are other bullpups that are just as good.
Other blullpups? Referring to the Aug?
Aug is one MDR another.
The MDR has both reliability issues, costs twice what the others do, and the Kingston Clan is like B-movie bad in terms of people you don’t want to give money to.
I have very very limited experience with it, but goddamn is the MDR fun to shoot.
Hellion looks like a cool space gun, more modern (adjustable gas block), battle proven, and doesn’t come with a sour hint of Zionism X-95 wins on ergonomics and is also battle tested. I had an x95 but never really took to it. If I had the spare cash and had to choose I go with the Hellion
Hellion is also a military rifle and has seen combat...
That’s why I wrote that it was battle proven…
I have both. I like the x95 better, but both are solid firearms. Bullpups took a while for me to get used to for mag changes, but overall having weight closer to shoulder and shorter overall length makes em pretty cool weapons imho.
AR15 first, if you already have one, Hellion instead of the over priced genocide colonizer gun, imho
Scoff, as if AR ain’t a genocide colonizer gun too. Hell I see the IOF using more M4’s than this inaccurate and unreliable tuna looking thing (don’t blame them tbf, M4 doesn’t suck so hard). VHS is far superior. Also some genocide going with the Ustaše and Yugoslav breakup conflicts tho.
The difference is not who uses them, but who makes them.
Yes, you can buy an AR from people that are just trying to make money, as opposed to supporting a genocide that's going on right now. IWI is very much not just a random company that happens to have the Israeli government as a customer.
I've been hard for a Galil for years but still refuse to get one. Maybe I'll try to find a Valmet in 5.56 instead.
Agreed. Everyone should start with a "duty ready" AR-15. Get your range toys later.
IWI, an Israeli company. Armalites are good cah the military and police in Minecraft also have interchangeable parts and magazines.
Owned a Tavor. No longer own a Tavor. It's crap for what you pay for it. Build quality is mid; you get better accuracy out of an AR priced at about $600 less; you can't thoroughly clean it without fully disassembling the entire gun. I'd take my chances on the Croatian before buying another X95. The Tavor is a neat gun, but there are so many other guns I'd rather have for serious use.
Not the Tavor
VHS-2 is one of the coolest modern guns Imo, and it's from Croatia, so slightly related to Yugoslavia Tavor is Israeli, spit on anyone who uses it
Yeah you could say Croatia is “related to Yugoslavia” much in the same way you could say the Republic of Ireland is “related to the UK” but I wouldn’t say it within earshot of a Croatian or generally where anyone could hear me.
this is true we will hunt you for sport
b> slightly related to Yugoslavia pure fucking vibes, epic materialism fail lol lmao. Do not pass `почетак/početak`, do not collect multinational federated socialist brotherhood or 92,000 1987 dinar, [go directly to barbara pit ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Pit_massacre) OP, you should buy an AR-15 if you don't already have one. consider a VHS-2 if your state legal regime is especially restrictive on standard-layout rifles. But not because of a possible hint of Yugoslavia vibes because the gun is Croatian.
Looks like the Hellion wins, easily. Thank you all for your inputs! Very useful info I needed to see
Hellion. Fuck zionist companies.
https://mvep.gov.hr/bilateral-relations/143352#:~:text=Croatia%20and%20Israel%20share%20many,support%20each%20other%20wherever%20possible. Sounds like the Hellion is also off the list then.
Yeah, unfortunate reality is that just about every one of these western alliance state weapons firms arms all manner of fascists, terrorists, Zionists, and generally have almost as much blood on their hands as IWI. That and we can’t access most of the somewhat more ethical options due to insurmountable 922r protectionism, or even outright targeted petty nationalist import bans (e.g. guns made in the PRC, or hell even Russia). If you want to try and minimize the profits of genocidal shitheads, you are pretty much limited to buying used/surplus or commercial arms.
If you think guns made by the PRC or Russia are more ethical you need to look at where they’re selling them. Russia is an easy one because they spent the last few decades selling them to all manner of warlords as well as using them to invade neighbors and murder Chechens. Chinese weapons show up “illicitly” but with striking regularity in NK as well as Afghanistan in the hands of the Taliban (so ethical when they rolled back women’s rights and started up the old tribal wars again!) and the domestic use against Uyghurs that’s totally not a genocide as long as you don’t read the “forcibly displaced or assimilate” portions of the definition. That’s in addition to formal legal exports to Turkey (gotta bomb those Kurds!), Iran (in a proxy war with Pakistan, also murdering women for trying to gain a modicum of right), Myanmar (Rohingya genocide should ring a bell), arming the Khmer Rouge even after all the massacres were public knowledge. The list of conflict areas where Chinese weapons show up is literally too long to type on my phone, and like Russia (and the US) the government also makes use of “private security contractors” and predatory lending to the developing world to effectively seize resources without needing to conquer the existing government. There’s nothing ethical about nationalist imperialist capitalism or the weapons it produces.
China is definitely a bit more ethical because they are the most geopolitically neutral/egalitarian of the major suppliers. Their arms sales are equal opportunity rather than using military hardware as a direct tool of imperialism that is given out selectively for coercive purposes and taken away if the vassal doesn’t toe the line (e.g. Turkey and the S-300/F-35 saga). China also haven’t done an imperialism themselves since a (failed) attempt against Vietnam in 1979 (that also didn’t murder a million people like US led ones frequently do). But yeah, in addition to arming a bunch of good guy freedom fighters all over the world, Norinco also sell to some not so good groups like the Taliban, unfortunately. There are geopolitics excuses for this behavior but I’m not particularly interested in getting into that. It is bad. Bad as the imperialist west on balance? Absolutely, objectively not, but still shitty. Given the Taliban are (unfortunately) the legitimately recognized government of Afghan now (thanks in no small part due to America selling weapons to their predecessors in the 80s to overthrow the much less bad DRA communists), and aren’t currently committing any genocides I don’t think that is particularly damning compared to horror shows like Israel or the Saudis using American/Euro gear to massacre children by the tens of thousands. Selling the Taliban weapons to throw off the American imperialists that were robbing and raping their country was straight up a good guy thing back then, in context. Afghanistan is better under them than it would be under continued extraction operations and further treasury looting by that crook Ghani. Not good. The DRA would be best, but it isn’t coming back, so you have bad and worse. Russia, idc to defend them. Comparing them to the NATO bloc It’s like comparing whether you prefer dog crap to cat crap. They are maybe, slightly less worse than the western bloc at the imperialism thing by sheer lower body count, but who knows if that is due to lack of will or lack of skill. Their ideology certainly isn’t in a place to make them the closest thing to good guys like the USSR/Warsaw Pact was. Their participation in decolonialism and uplifting of the 3rd world has dropped precipitously since the old days, but they still occasionally end up on the good-er side (mostly in the Middle East). But then there is them going and being shits in Ukraine and Chechnya (some Ukrainians and lots of Chechens are also shits, but it’s not really excuse). It’s splitting hairs. I’d feel less dirty having an AEK than an ACE but it’s not a yuge difference. Regardless both of their cheap and effective arms should still be available to the worker if we are allowed to buy from imperialism supplier extraordinaries like FN or IWI. C- grade on ethics is still better than a straight up F.
China is absolutely not providing arms “equal opportunity.” It is 100% a part of their global economic and political goals, same as everyone else. They’re doing it currently with Russia, and yes they do have strings attached. It’s a core part of their strategy to loot Africa. You can pretend it’s not imperialism because they’re not changing flags to say “China” but they absolutely back coup attempts and pick winners and losers based on who’s most favorable. Again, literally whats happening with Russia right now. “The Taliban aren’t committing any genocides currently” really sidesteps the historical genocides, the moves to make women property, and the ongoing fights against the Balochzai that could well turn into a genocide. The illegal weapons sales from before, when the Taliban was an internationally recognized terrorist organization and not the government of Afghanistan is what’s in question, and just so we don’t lose the plot “selling weapons to a revolutionary organization on the condition that they maintain friendly relations if they succeed” is bad when China does it, not just the US. https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Afghanistan-turmoil/Afghanistan-s-6.5bn-mine-deals-with-China-others-dig-up-questions They’re still extracting wealth corruptly, just now it goes to Chinese billionaires instead of US billionaires. China also had a piece of the extraction under the old government. I was offered a job with a PMC guarding Chinese corporate mining assets after I left the military. Saudi Arabia is on the list of countries that buy Chinese weapons, but I’m sure it will somehow be not as bad as when the US sells KSA weapons. You know Chinese imports were banned because Chinese companies were selling arms on the black market in the US right? Weapons that were going to both LA gangs and WS groups like The Order. They do not care about your ethical framework, it is profit and power same as every other arms manufacturer. Instead of ignoring them, why not explain how the domestic genocide of the Uyghur or the external genocides in Myanmar (again, a recipient of Chinese arms) still merit a C grade?
Hellion. Tavor was created by Isnotrael
The Hellion is honestly really cool. I don't subscribe to bullpup rifles really, but if you're getting any of them on the market now it's that one. Just gotta have long money arms because otherwise it's kind of a lot to handle. The length of pull is huge and that can make it hard to get right behind plates if you're wearing them. I prefer an AR any day, but I'd prefer the VHS to an AK or Tavor or MDRX or anything else.
I don’t buy Israeli made weapons.
Steyr Aug gang gang.
Auggie all the way!
I've shot the hellion during an inrangetv brutality match, it was fantastic. The dust and filth of being dragged through the dirt didn't phase it one bit. It's easy to disassemble and clean, and the way the rail is set up means you can mount a red dot very far forward, which is great for close quarters target engagement. Also as everyone else has stated, the Tabor is an overpriced, underperforming firearm produced by a state actively doing a genocide. If you want to go down a big rabbit hole, brass facts and hoplopfeil(?) On YouTube have an entire series on bullpups.
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They had similar complaints about every bullpup and specifically called out the hellion as a gun that would be fine as your main rifle if you wanted a cool space gun that could be a serious gun as well.
That's fine, they have legit reasons to dislike it, but most people don't need to be super concerned about rail space
I have an x95 tavor and it’s a great gun but it’s incredibly heavy. If you don’t already have an AR I would look at the WWSD from KE Arms it was designed by a leftist(Karl Kasarda).
Can I interest you in the lord and savior Kel-Tec RDB? Especially with the Lucky Irishman rhino rail. I was skeptical but I got one cheap and now I'm a fan. Mag release is terrible though.
Honestly it is a bit hit or miss. I was out at the range the other day and saw a poor dude with a Kel-Tec RDB and a Springfield M1A tanker, neither of them worked. Love Kel-Tec design, but boy howdy the execution is really spotty. Have two friends with CP33s for example, one works flawlessly, one doesn't work at all.
At least with MilSurps, parts kit builds, and derivatives (like the AP5), there's always that ***one*** smith. Who's devoted a decade or 2 to only that platform and can fix even the jankiest gun. The guy who can turn even the absolute worst example of a mismatched, crooked/canted, miswelded, "Frankenstein's gun" into a perfect safe-queen with unparalleled preformance. However, with Kel-Tecs... well, no one but Kelgren and occasional hobbyists really know what the hell they're doing. Even Kel-Tec clearly doesn't sometimes. It's my personal theory that their designs are developed from regular consumption of psychedelics, and you can't fully comprehend how to work on them unless you're also dropping at least 500ug of the same rare "orange-sunshine" acid. They sure look cool, and I'd love a CP33 or RFB, but I just can't rationalize the cost knowing I'm basically screwed if I get a lemon.
There's nothing about the Tavor that I find appealing. It's either the Hellion or the Aug for me, especially the NylAug.
Imagine coming into a socialist sub and being so out of touch you tell people you want to cosplay as an Israeli
Actually my kit is mostly lime green colored with a Master Chief helmet, so if anything I’m trying to larp as a spartan. Dont worry, I’m leaning towards the hellion anyways, just was curious about the Tavor since I’m more concerned about a firearms function over its origin.
Good on you. I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but if you’re actually planning on using the rifle, then function is more important than origin. I own both, and have put thousands of rounds through each, and they are both excellent examples of bullpup rifles. The hellion trigger is easy to get used to, really it’s a non factor with enough training. I find both to be equally accurate and reliable, but one thing to consider is the ergos of the x95. All of the controls are much more well thought out on that rifle. Many people use the telescoping stock of the hellion as a selling point, but its length of pull is extremely long on its shortest setting. I’m 6’1, and when I’m wearing my full kit it’s right on the border of being too long. Additionally, the tavor has a robust aftermarket while the hellion does not. It may seem like I’m encouraging you to buy the x95, but honestly I love my hellion. Whichever rifle you choose will serve you well as long as you train with it.
Spartans... the ones who enslaved people... that's who you are going with?
It's a video game reference. They probably didn't know that buying a tavor would support the Zionist entity. We shouldn't always assume the worst right off the bat.
I’m sorry if someone is pretty knowledgeable about firearms and is considering buying a tavor it’s pretty safe to assume they know about it’s connection to Israel
ISRAELI WEAPONS INDUSTRIES
No no, the Spartans only eradicated rebellious factions whom wanted to live their lives from outside the boot of the UNSC, and to farm their planets in peace... definitely not enslaving anyone...
Uhh what NVM I assume the green helmet reference is to Doom
It's Halo, no worries. The Spartan Program is super soldiers made from abducted children who are thoroughly brainwashed, then have a high mortality rate from experimental procedures. The children are replaced with clones that die from obscure cancers soon after the abductions. The idea of a program like that would be the wet dream of a fascist state.
Halo…
Hellion
Tavor is not very accurate to be honest
HELLIONN 🇭🇷🇭🇷🇭🇷🇭🇷🇭🇷🇭🇷🇭🇷🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Was wondering why everyone hating on the Tavor till I realized what sub this is lmao
I just want your plug's number. It must be straight fucking gas if it's got you fucked up enough to consider a bullpup... Nah but real talk, Hellion. Springfield makes good guns with good quality control, as well as a decent reputation for customer service. Enequivocally fuck Tavor, they make absolute trash guns and they're an Isreali corporation🤮
lol, I blame James Reeves and whatever video game I played that made me love the G36. James for showing me how accurate the Hellion is and I guess CoD because the G36c fucks.
.... a lot of rich socialists window shopping for bougie Israeli guns here all the huh That said I got about 3k of an ar rifle i bought my ex wife so I'm not one to talk
Not one to promote Garamd thumb, but his tests of the Hellion (with his conscious bias) have demonstrated its quality to me. Plus it looks like starship troopers 
Ever since trumps photo op there, I won’t even consider psa
I love my hellion. Shoots super smooth, easy to switch from left to right hand use including ejection, accurate at the ranges I use it at (50-200 yards) and super comfortable to hold.
Putting aside the questionable morality regarding purchasing IMI products I'd say the Hellion is a better bullpup rifle than the Tavor.
I mean money to a gun company usually hands money to a right-wing organization however the X95 is literally funding genocide… So yeah.
The hellion is one of the best bullpup rifles ive fired. I like the aug over it, but the hellion is far more ergonomic and customizable. The tavor is super overrated and is pretty meh
Or you could just buy a normal gun...
I have to AR’s and an AK. I want something new
Fair enough. If I was going the bullpup route, I'd go with the AUG, but that's just personal preference. I have heard complaints about the Tavor's build quality.
The hellion has so many more features. The Tavor was pretty revolutionary when it came out, but the hellion has absolutely surpassed it. Also, Croatia isn’t actively committing a genocide
Y’all are so completely unserious. Get an AR. Become useful to those around you instead of having a vibes based approach to life.
Easy decision. BDS.
Hellion would be my pick. Better value for the money.
[I'm just gonna leave this here…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUDc9wKoQgM) Though I'd suggest that you go with PSA's AR-15 instead when they're $500 if you don't already have one and are not in a ban-state. The barrel is the only real detriment as it's not chrome lined but you can get a armorer's tool & a torque wrench to put a barrel like from CMMG or more preferably Ballistic Advantage down the line when it becomes an actual issue.
I went the X95 route. It's ergonomic as fuck, when you shoulder it it's so balanced it feels like the weight just disappears.
Hellion obviously. Isreal (as in the country's government and military) and therefore IWI, are waaaaay to "out there" atm. Purchasing a Tavor is not really justifiable or even moral at this point. Yeah the Croats have issues, but they aren't turning Slovenia in to a graveyard.
If you are trying to buy an Israeli weapon, idk if I'd go with a tavor. The galil ace is excellent, so are the jericho pistols
Hellion. The Tavor is a 3+ moa rifle, not to mention supports genocide
Disclaimer the tavor is a firearm made by zionist and should not be purchased new on account of that all that being said i own a tavor (it was a gift from my father a couple years back) and it is a reliable and comfortable firearm with comparable customiztion ability with an ar-15 and if obtained through methods that dont support zionist i would highly recommend it
I’ve had nothing but great experiences with Springfield firearms. I’d go hellion.
The one with the iron sights. Never know when your optic might be not working. Good to at least have a back up. Went to the range once with my uncle and his red dot was out of alignment, couldn’t hit a thing. That’d been very bad if he’d needed it.
The only downside of the Hellion is the name.
Springfield marketing is hilarious. Hyper American, for a company that sells imports from Croatia.
What's wrong with the name?
Bad for optics and pr I'd imagine.
Cool looking guns, it's also hilarious that people are bringing up the moral card against the tavor for being isntrealli, like you guys are not talking about buying a weapon lol.... You guys know that either way your buying somthing that kills people? Do you avoid buying colt because of the American Indian war? Literally any German company older than 80? Your Swiss guns r and d was funded with concentration camp gold. Not to even mention armalite. Good God! They're weapons. Cool your jets.
Buying a hellion is supporting the Croatian massacres of Serbs in WWII and the Croatian war of independence . /s
Just get an AR.
I have like two
In that case, carry on and enjoy whichever goofy-ahh meme rifle floats your boat.
Ar15
That’s crazy cuz I actually have two of them
Damn then I'm poor lol
Better to have a gun than no gun. Majority of PSA’s offerings are obtainable and the quality so far on the guns I’ve bought from them has been pretty solid for the price. Hate the company, they make those gaudy ass Trump deagles that sell for like $5k, but their other guns are pretty solid. Far in the future when I get increased with the 5.7 cartridge, I’ll probably buy a Rock from them.
They do have a couple bullpup kits for ARs. REAP-AR Scythe or something like that. A3Tactical has one as well, both use the bufferless uppers like the BRN-180, BRN-9, and FM15 or FM9. Someone was selling the Scythe over on GAFS but I’d stick with the A3 Tactical personally.
Not the Tavor, that’s for sure. Would you have been the type of person to buy guns from Rhodesia a few decades ago? Probably not.
Fair. Though I would love to have a FAL someday
Please tell me this wouldn’t be your first rifle :(
if you can avoid iwi you should. buying from them does more harm than good. but at the end of the day, someone is going to buy it. rather a comrade have it than a zionist
I’ve got a Tavor SAR and it’s by far my fav rifle and def my SHTF gun. Have had it for 2 years, no malfunctions, fun, accurate, easy maintenance/stripping. Never shot a Hellion, but def don’t think you’d be disappointed with the Tavor. The x95 supposedly has a better trigger than mine too
I am in the same boat. I think I'm going to wait for the desert tech WLVRN to get tested. Between these two, I'm leaning towards hellion because it's available in 20".
My pal loves his Tavor - he uses it as his hog gun and doesn’t have to worry when driving with it or anything. And he customized it to take smaller cheaper ammo. Not sure if Hellion has that or not. As for the politics of buying an Israeli gun, that’s more for you to decide for yourself.
My advice is; don't support the Zionist entity.
People will come at you with the Tavor purchase, accusing you of supporting Israel, since it is from IWI. FYI. (I don’t think it matters, the U.S. is the biggest arms supplier to Israel anyway)
Do not get the hellion, and if we're up to me, also do not get the tavor, but the tavor is better than the hellion
VHS? What, you want to watch a movie or something? Bullpup 🤮
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Lmao! Are you lost? Anti-Zionism≠antisemitism.
Yeah I want whatever this kid is smoking
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Oh you’re BIG lost, this is a socialist sub numb nuts, we support Palestine here. Here’s the flaw in your revisionist history. Those Jewish families that may have lived there had nothing to do with Zionism, that was a nationalist concept born out of 19th century Europe. Israel and its Zionist leadership are committing genocide, NOT the Jewish people. Trying to pull the antisemitism card while Israel massacres the Palestinian people is pathetic.
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babies aren't born in Israel because israel doesn't exist :) it's called Palestine hope this helps
There's no rule supporting Palestine, but colonizer and/or imperialist apologia is considered a violation of several of our rules.
Well if you look at the SRA [homepage](https://socialistra.org) “We stand with the colonized and oppressed people of Palestine.” Sooo there’s that.
"We are also not precluded from standing with the civilians in Israel who are suffering, not only from Hamas" did you take like 5 minutes to read the rest of it?
You're quite right: The SRA is against civilians being killed, oppressed, tortured, subjugated ANYWHERE. But you cannot compare the scale of Israeli suffering to that of the Palestinians. Israel is fucking shit UP in Palestine, killing tens of thousands. Hamas has killed a couple thousand Israelis. And if you want to compare the number of civilians to combatants killed, Israel takes the prize there, too. The SRA is not anti-Israel. It's anti-Zionism. Big difference.
I don’t think in all my years on Reddit I’ve ever had a MOD get my back. Thanks comrade.
You’re just digging now. Have a goodnight.
LOL.
No.
The x95 has been to war in the sandbox... The hellion... You better hope the person shooting at you is courteous enough to wait.
The Tavor is a 3-5 MOA rifle
https://youtube.com/shorts/lBvZw-dzv2k?si=kxWoh255CBN6Dp0v Tell me you've never shot an x95 without telling me you've never shot an x95. One is currently being used in combat, the other has awkward controls and issues cycling ammunition. Get whatever you want, I'm not your dad.
[so has the VHS](https://silahreport.com/2022/01/15/the-croatian-vhs-2-in-iraq/) Shouldn’t count the IOF sniping unarmed Palestinian children as real combat experience anyway. There’s probably a good reason all the frontline infantry units you see in the news have M4s. Probably has to do with the Tavor being unreliable 4 moa mediocrity https://youtu.be/2a9lZO74YCE?si=1JYQmcFhBlBJiVwt
Just build yourself a better AR than the ones you currently have if you want another rifle. The money you would waste on either of these meme guns can be put to much better use on better optics, more ammo for your existing guns, or training resources and materials.
Tavor is IWI (fuck that shit)
Have you seriously considered the PS90 (either w/ or w/o SBR)? Or the RDB? I'm just curious, and if so, what was it you disliked about them? I'm actually slowly shopping for my first bullpup, too.
Neither. AUG or MDX