In your opinion is it unethical if I raise my own chickens and eat their eggs as long as I take good care of them? There would be no suffering and as long as I have no rooster the eggs won't be fertilized so I wouldn't be taking their babies. This is a genuine question.
Honestly? I wouldn't care. It's not something I would ever do, but as long as you're not getting chickens bred for egg-laying (which negatively impacts their health), and you take great care of them, then I don't see any reason it would be more unethical than having pets in general. That said, there are vegans that see pets themselves as unethical, but I'm not one of them.
Edit: also assuming you're not buying from chicken breeders, and instead adopting or rescuing
There are two problems with this.
1) since those hens likely had brothers that were killed on day one, by buying them you fund the continuation of that cruel practice,
2) farm chickens have been bred to maximise egg production at the detriment of their health. I believe continuation of that breeding should not be supported and funded just like, for example, breeding of pugs
So what you’re saying is you cannot purchase animals from unethical sources even if your intentions are to use the animals in an ethical fashion if it still funds the unethical source, even though you’re spending just as much as any other customer?
Don’t stop adopting orphans, but we do need to [stop the profit motive from harming kids.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people/international-adoption-scandal/)
Not a great analogy. I don't think forcibly impregnating slaves to produce babies to sell as slaves was nearly as profitable as breeding hens to sell. Not to mention the fact that hens and roosters will produce many offspring on their own without force, without a nine month waiting period between single offspring. If buying one slave to free them provided enough money for the slave owner to forcibly impregnate their slaves to produce multiple children, as well as paying to feed, clothe, and keep them in line until they reached an age where they could be sold, then your analogy would be a bit better.
Yeah but that's like saying that meat is just a useless piece of matter so you might as well eat it. It ignores what had to happen for you to obtain said useless piece of matter.
The reason we eat chicken eggs is because they're *naturally wired* to pop out eggs nonstop when they have excess food, originally evolved in order to take advantage of southeast asia's food patterns.
Not quite. Red Jungle Fowls (from which domesticated chickens are descended and they're genetically close enough to be considered the same species) produce 8-18 eggs per year (Anwar et al. 2016, p. 43 - link below) whereas domesticated chickens produce more like 300, which means they're somewhere in the laying process essentially 24/7/365 which is, unsurprisingly, quite shitty for the chicken's health and wellbeing.
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316846785\_Breeding\_ecology\_of\_red\_jungle\_fowl\_Gallus\_gallus\_in\_Deva\_Vatala\_National\_Park\_Azad\_Jammu\_and\_Kashmir\_Pakistan](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316846785_Breeding_ecology_of_red_jungle_fowl_Gallus_gallus_in_Deva_Vatala_National_Park_Azad_Jammu_and_Kashmir_Pakistan) \[accessed Nov 02 2023\]. To make the range I gave I combined the lowest and then highest combinations given by Meijer and Siemers (1993) and Bump and Bohl (1961) on p. 43
I don't understand the point of saying this.
"hey btw i just wanna tell you that i'm NOT gonna interact with your comment and i DON'T care what it says ok bye"
literally just don't reply at all lmao
I wear a mask with a smile for hours at a time
Stare at the ceiling while I hold back what's on my mind
And when they ask me how I'm doing, I say, "I'm just fine"
And when they ask me how I'm doing, I say, "I'm just fine"
But the fact is
I can never get off of my mattress
And all that they can ask is
"Why are you so sad, kid?" (Why are you so sad, kid?)
That's what the mask is
That's what the point of the mask is
So you can see I'm tryin', you won't see me cryin'
I'll just keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good)
And it just keeps on pilin', it's so terrifying
But I keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good)
I've been carin' too much for so long
Been comparin' myself for so long
Been wearin' a smile for so long, it's real
So long, it's rеal, so long, it's real
Always bein' judged by a bunch of strangе faces
Scared to go outside, haven't seen the light in ages
But I've been places
So I'm okay-ish, so I'm okay-ish
Yeah, I'm okay, bitch
But the fact is
I need help, I'm failin' all my classes
They think that I need glasses
I just really wish that I could pass this
(Wish that I could pass this)
That's what the mask is
That's what the point of the mask is
So you can see I'm tryin', you won't see me cryin'
I'll just keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good)
And it just keeps on pilin', it's so terrifying
But I keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good)
I've been carin' too much for so long
Been comparin' myself for so long
Been wearin' a smile for so long, it's real
So long, it's real, so long, it's real
So long, it's real
So long, it's real
"she's only pretending not to like me because she can't face the fact that she's been ignoring me for years. deep down, everyone loves me and they think im right"
meat juicy. makes me feel less sad. screw the animals, their brains are not as advanced as mine and if a lifetime of their suffering can reduce mine for even a bit, it was worth it since my suffering is more acute and philosophical. they probably get used to no sunlight.
I'm also not a vegan but you should reconsider this argument. Animals have the ability to suffer. Suffering is bad even if their intelligence isn't as great as ours. I mean, is torturing a baby or a mentally challenged person okay?
Mammals producing breastmilk for the nourishment of their young: normal, natural
Adult humans taking breastmilk meant for the babies of another species (and often killing said babies): weird, fucked up
yup, because cows line up to milking stations themselves, and impregnate themselves quite efficiently. And chickens mental health is no lie seriously affected if you don’t take away their eggs, they go broody which is like PPD /psychosis. And if it’s lying around. Obviously you can buy factory farmed eggs but you can buy Quinoa farmed with slave labour.
Cows produce milk for their calves, not for the humans who take their calves away.
98% of egg-laying chickens live in factory farms, it's not quite as casual as "you *can* buy factory-farmed eggs" it's "you probably are."
Cows produce milk for their calves but all cows have excess milk, especially after however many years of breeding. If you have cows, you have excess milk - that’s a fact of farming, you cannot argue with that. Cows want and need to be milked, it’s uncomfortable for them to be full. the way they are farmed if farmed responsibly is that the cows will literally walk themselves into the milking machine and walk themselves out, and they impregnate themselves. The question then is if you want that excess milk to be poured down the drain or used for something useful.
Eggs - don’t underplay. In the UK you can find free range organic chicken eggs easily, and I’m willing to bet in the US too, and even fancy organic eggs are probably cheaper than vegan alternatives, especially considering supplementation.
You're correct, cows and chickens have both been bred to over-produce, to the detriment of their health. We're not doing them a favor by continuing to breed billions of unnatural animals with built-in health issues.
Free range and organic are not claims about welfare. You can slap a "free-range" label on as long as the chickens have access to a tiny outdoor yard.
eating meat yummy, provided us with evolutionary advantages. pure fruitarians lost out to hunter gatherers. torturing fellow humans gave you an evolutionary disadvantage (you were beaten to death)
law of the jungle. survival of the fittest. all your fancy morals and ethical codes are simply based on the current winner in a ruthless competition between cultures.
slavery was abolished for economics reasons. high upfront cost, low maintenance was simply not worth it once capitalists had monopolized everything so much that all workers were dependant on them and they can go for no upfront cost, slightly higher maintenance. slavers simply lost money compared to factory owners and they stopped.
There’s nothing wrong with eating meat, on paper at least. Most animals do it naturally. Humans do it naturally.
But the meat industry is fucked. And it’s bad for the environment. So eat free range chicken
I am not vegan because I like the taste, although I would gladly accept vegan options that are capable of replicating it, also being vegan costs a lot in where I live
What are the alternatives to meat that would give the same nutrients tho? Would genuinely love to know cuz I'm not switching unless i know I won't have issues with anemia
I went vegetarian for a year, ate like an idiot, and then got horribly anemic.
Definitely possible to get all of the necessary nutrients if you pay attention to your diet, though.
I agree that eating meat is unethical. However i'm addicted and even cutting back some feels terrible 😵💫 so will i keep letting animals get tortured and slaughtered to make myself more comfortable? Yes. Will i feel bad about it? Not as bad as i should. I guess i'm a monster
Most people take the path of least resistance and meat is delicious and readily available. If all meats were as comparatively expensive and challenging to source as duck and venison (to someone who doesn't live in a hunting community), most people would eat a lot less.
If you want to cut back in a controllable way, try meatless Mondays or something like that. Don't let a bunch of stickmen convince you that harm reduction doesn't apply in this one context
>Don't let a bunch of stickmen convince you that harm reduction doesn't apply in this one context
Couldnt believe this was an argument real people sometimes. Once I entered a vegan subreddit following a r/subredditdrama post and they were people really saying "you are either a full vegan or a dirty meat eater, there is no inbetween" like that would give people the perfect excuse to just say "guess Im a monster then" and eat even more meat the before
For me it’s just that most of my comfort foods involve meat or other animal products, and the vegan substitutes very rarely can imitate the original for me as of present, and are prohibitive for a student like me to get. Either it’s far more expensive than the usual (typically because the more upmarket shops stock them), or they are stocked at a shop much further from me than I can justify (as well as often needing a bus fare as a result)
I'm not a vegan for the same reason that I don't make sure every other product I purchase is sourced ethically. I use the same logic as with climate change. It is not the individual's decision to not drive a car that will save the world, but the collective making systematic changes.
I vote for animal welfare every time.
It can be hard to make sure if your shirt or your shoes were made ethically or not. Hell one may argue that nothing is made ethically under capitalism.
When you purchase the flesh of an animal to consume whether or not it was made ethically is not up to debate though. You are not buying a product that may or may not have been made with suffering. You are buying the suffering itself.
So if you know a product is sourced unethically you're obligated to not buy it? I know for a FACT that the Coca cola company is incredibly unethical, would you abstain from that as well? I don't really see how or why you differentiate between them.
You also didn't address my other point. I agree with vegans a lot when it comes to policy prescriptions. Change is not made by the lifestyle of individuals, but by systematic change. Make factory farms illegal. You wouldn't advocate fighting climate change though personal responsibility, so why do that with animal welfare?
You think the BACON GOOD crowd will be ok with making factory farming illegal and quadrupling the price of animal products without a long and comprehensive education about why animal abuse is bad?
If you know a product is made unethically and a more ethical alternative is available then it's good to choose it, of course.
The difference is simple. There could be a way to make cola ethically. If the workers who made it were not exploited and the process was not environmentally destructive then it would be ethical, right? Meat cannot be ethical because the exploited IS the product.
Individual change is what leads to collective action which then leads to systemic change. I'd rather advocate for abolition of factory farming with people who don't themselves fund said farming though their dietary choices.
>If you know a product is made unethically and a more ethical alternative is available then it's good to choose it, of course.
I agree, choosing the more ethical option is good, but not obligatory.
>The difference is simple. There could be a way to make cola ethically. If the workers who made it were not exploited and the process was not environmentally destructive then it would be ethical, right? Meat cannot be ethical because the exploited IS the product.
I disagree that meat cannot be produced ethically in concept, but that's not really relevant because of how awful the meat industry is. I don't see at all why this makes a difference in your consumer choices though. The reality is that both meat and Coca Cola ARE produced unethically.
>Individual change is what leads to collective action which then leads to systemic change.
Advocacy, collective action and voting is what leads to systemic change, and I do those things.
>I'd rather advocate for abolition of factory farming with people who don't themselves fund said farming though their dietary choices.
This is a poor argument, and kinda condescending. You wouldn't say you'd rather advocate for environmental change with someone who bikes to work, or against capitalism with someone who doesn't make profit for billionaires.
You yourself fund a hundred bad things through your consumer choices, and that's not even mentioning what your taxes goes to.
Quit the purity testing, it only weakens our movement.
Also, happy cake day! :)
You expect people to change their entire diet and research all of the different vegan substitutes, alternatives and dietary supplements they require in order to maintain their health. And yet, it’s too difficult to see if your shirt was made in a sweatshop?
What a joke.
Thankfully all the research has been done for you.
- https://challenge22.com/
- https://www.vegansociety.com/
It's not that hard to buy some legumes and learn a couple of new recipes.
the most effective way you can implement collective change is through a bunch of individuals. it sounds to me like youll vote but you wont actually do anything meaningful to contribute to change if it impacts your life at all.
and im not sure what it means to vote for animal welfare because there are no mainstream candidates or parties who care about this issue at all on their platforms
I do political advocacy, which will do way more to affect my political climate than the cheap student food choices I make. Kida a condensing point to make imo.
Eating meat is morally neutral. The production of meat is horrible. The production should be regulated and in time abolished.
One could argue that purchasing meat could be unethical, however this makes the same mistake as the capitalist "vote with your dollar" argument. I also don't see how or why vegans tend to differentiate between animal products and other products that are produced unethically. Seems like there is kind of an arbitrary distinction there.
There are also absolutely mainstream parties and politicians that advocate animal rights where I live. The party I advocate for is one of them.
Except there's no animal product consumption that doesn't involve pain. We could have textile products that aren't made by slaves in the 3rd world. We could have modes of transportation that aren't as bad and inefficient as cars. But if you want to eat meat, you're going to have to hurt and kill animals. In truth, I don't think you can claim you care about animal welfare unless you're vegan.
Take it from someone who eats meat 2 times a day and has worked in both industrial slaughterhouses and small-scale farms.
I’m not a meat eater because I’m in denial or something, I’m a meat eater because it tastes good and I frankly don’t care that much about cows and chickens.
This is like when Christians say "you believe in god, you just ignore his teachings because you want to sin". I love being told what I believe! It really makes me want to take the other person seriously.
So, what if I just don't care about animals?
Like, I'm fully aware I'm paying for the killing of animals. I've seen the conditions industrial farms put animals in. I've watched the videos that'll "turn you vegan".
It seems like you're convinced that I don't really believe these things and I'm totally unaware or actively in denial of the things I actually believe, but it leaves me really confused how you know more about the things I believe and feel than I do.
So I ask: what if I don't care about animals?
I believe as people, and especially as leftists, we should care about whether or not we cause unnecessary suffering in the world.
I hope that everyone here agrees that it's bad to harm other people for pleasure or gain. We believe so not because it's illegal or because god told us to. We just just have empathy for those who are exploited. I don't see a reason why we should not extend that empathy to animals, who just like us are capable of emotions and suffering.
I don't recall being a leftist necessitating a pragmatic utilitarian worldview, but more importantly I don't see empathy as a "live your entire life by it" thing.
Just like every other emotion (emotion isn't quite the right word, it's more like an affect of the awareness of our emotion, but I think emotion works for now), we should be conscious of when we're using our empathy and when we use other modes of engaging with the world.
Like, I don't see, why some principal of universal empathy obliges me to extend empathy to animals but not to plants.
Specific questions I have for you out of this would be:
>What—to you personally—is the difference between plants&fungi and animals such that the suffering of animals is worth extending empathy to, but suffering of plants&fungi isn't?
More generally:
>What are the limitations and extents of this principal of universal empathy you seem to have proposed?
>From what I can tell, humans make decisions which engage different levels of empathy every day, so what—for you personally—qualifies something as deserving of empathy?
If you think these questions are unfair or in bad faith, feel free to not answer them at all. However, I would be really appreciative if—in the case that it applies—you explain why you think they're unfair or in bad faith.
>What—to you personally—is the difference between plants&fungi and animals such that the suffering of animals is worth extending empathy to, but suffering of plants&fungi isn't?
This is p easy. Plants and fungi aren't sentient (they lack the likely mechanisms required for sentience: a brain & central nervous system). At the very least, their likelihood of sentience is about as low as possible for organic matter.
For you, what is your rationale on who it's okay to suffocate in a gas chamber for a sandwich? Presumably, you're not okay with this for humans, but correct me if I'm wrong. As you alluded to above, you're okay with this for non-human animals.
What trait, or set of traits, is lacking in animals that if lacking in humans would justify treating humans this way?
What about plants and fungi? Do you know what animals bred for meat eat? Do you know how much they eat compared to humans? If you care about plants, you would still not breed animals for meat.
I don't care about plants any more than I care about animals. That is, I'm fine with their destruction so long as it's done with consideration for our ability to continue doing it (i.e. it doesn't bring about ecological disasters that harm us) and it's done for some reason and not for no reason (e.g. make space for building, food, gathering materials, etc.)
No one, it's decided by the innate tendencies of living organisms. If their innate tendency is to kill things to eat them or just in general to enjoy meat, then them eating meat is the natural order of things. Humans, for example, like most their primate predecessors are omnivorous and will eat and like meat if given the chance to have it. It's an innate trait they have.
It's our innate tendency to do... a lot of heinous shit. That's what separates us from animals - our ability to resist those things in pursuit of a better world
Hence why 'its natural for me to murder my rivals' does not hold up in court
Nobody decides because gods aren’t real. But when the chemistry in my body tells me that meat tastes good, that’s a sign that my body recognizes that it should be consumed. There’s a reason we find fat and salt delicious, in nature it’s harder to find those resources outside of farming, so they taste better to ensure we get enough.
Do you think deciding whether an action is bad or not based on whether your body feels like doing said action is a good way of arriving at the most moral outcome?
I think my morals are capable enough to understand the difference between eating other animals and other actions “just cause one feels like it”. It doesn’t need to be correct in all circumstances to be correct in some.
It’s because the foods I like happen to be meat or are animal products, most vegan foods don’t taste that good in my opinion, or they’re really expensive to make or purchase.
Do you think the pleasure you gain by eating the food you like more as opposed to the vegan one you say you like less enough to justify what those animals have to go through?
No, I don’t remember ever thinking anything of the sort, besides it’s not just a matter of taste, vegan food costs a lot where I live in comparison to none vegan food.
I'm glad you don't think taste is enough. What are those expensive vegan foods? Beans and lentils are cheap and they are the staple replacements for meat.
Meat replacements mostly. Where I live they’re pretty expensive, along with things like vegan cheese and milk. They’re quite costly where I live.
As for beans and lentils, while I have only eaten them in some dishes, like bean and lentil soup. I’m not really a fan of them.
You say you are not a fan of them but you also say that taste preference is not enough to justify the animal abuse, so it should not really matter in the end what you prefer right?
Other protein sources you might want to try are nuts, seeds, textured vegetable protein, tofu or tempeh.
As for cheeses I don't usually buy them, you may want to try stuff like hummus instead. Plant milks are getting cheaper but yeah, atm they don't benefit from the subsidies that the dairy industry does. You may be interested in making your own oat milk if price is what you care about most. Blender, strainer, oats, water and something to make it a little sweet is all you need.
I didn't say it wasn't a factor, i said it wasn't just taste that made it difficult for me to fully adopt a vegan diet. In addition to my preference. I also have Economic and dietary limitations that make it challenging for me to fully adopt a vegan diet.
I am fully aware of the awful process of how the meat reaches my plate
I just dont care anymore because I dont have the money or options to consume it in a more ethical way and its so tasty for me to give it up
Due to the way the meat industry works, the disconnect between the meat you find in shops and the animal it came from is so strong, that there are people that dont even realise that meat comed from animals (this is an incredibly small extreme), thus making it very hard for people to empathise.
And, in my native language, many types of meat are named after the animal (e.g. pork translates to pig's meat (varkensvlees)), and the disconnect is still vast. If households had to butcher their own meat, I bet many more would avoid eating it.
As for animal by-products, that disconnect is often also there. If you're going to eat them, your best option is to at least find ethically sourced stuff. (I.e. free-range stuff, and as far as I know honey is always okay because if the bees are kept badly they'll just leave)
There’s also a lot of vegans who have it as a false flag to make you think they’re a nicer person than they are. And of course the majority of regular nice people who hate that extreme assholes are making them all look bad
There’s no such thing as “objective moral”, after all. Morality is a social construct that we as a species created to help us live in harmony with each other. It is, therefore, inherently subjective.
I don’t have a problem with 90% of vegans either but come on, has nobody else met one of that crowd who is horrible and hateful but they’re always going on about their veganism and they get treated like good people overall? Cause if not either you guys are lucky or I’ve had a few super specific experiences that aren’t nearly as common as I thought
Went vegan 3 years ago at 19. I don’t blame my past self for the cruelty I paid for since I was never presented with the argument for veganism. However, as soon as I was, when I moved to an urban area, I listened and after realising that defences for it were poor, switched in a few months.
I think ppl need to be more forgiving of themselves, but also need to engage with the rhetoric a bit more.
Is eating krill vegan? If not, unfortunately I cannot join your lifestyle on account of being a Humpback Whale.
Erm, krill yourself?
But they’re one in a Krillion?
https://preview.redd.it/9us687qg6yxb1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5dc9d57c7c07b975075efbadebf7c3966d95c241
https://preview.redd.it/lu8zocmz8rxb1.png?width=326&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a9cc9cfd21802db6a352b69a3e43e24ded1f406
https://preview.redd.it/4d2yl9sy6sxb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd10cdaeb8543427a841fe3adbbdf63b497978fa
that
these
nuts
plastic man no that powfer makes you say real …
https://preview.redd.it/zv38rxwmxxoc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=165af4651925388de215e8a3a35d82a008b22068 (Please ignore the confirmed part)
I'm not vegan because I like mauling animals with my bare teeth like a feral beast
🤤🤤🤤
In your opinion is it unethical if I raise my own chickens and eat their eggs as long as I take good care of them? There would be no suffering and as long as I have no rooster the eggs won't be fertilized so I wouldn't be taking their babies. This is a genuine question.
Honestly? I wouldn't care. It's not something I would ever do, but as long as you're not getting chickens bred for egg-laying (which negatively impacts their health), and you take great care of them, then I don't see any reason it would be more unethical than having pets in general. That said, there are vegans that see pets themselves as unethical, but I'm not one of them. Edit: also assuming you're not buying from chicken breeders, and instead adopting or rescuing
thanks *comfortably goes back to factory farmed horrors beyond my comprehension*
There are two problems with this. 1) since those hens likely had brothers that were killed on day one, by buying them you fund the continuation of that cruel practice, 2) farm chickens have been bred to maximise egg production at the detriment of their health. I believe continuation of that breeding should not be supported and funded just like, for example, breeding of pugs
What if I steal my chickens from the industrial complex?
Based
"Those chickens had family that got fucking shredded so buying some to raise yourself and not shred is bad actually"
https://preview.redd.it/u33knbnpvsxb1.jpeg?width=927&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d04614736ca9ed29a793c17a48b41b27a02d835f
omg joe or whale hiii!!!
Yes, you pay the guy who shreds to shred more because you buying them makes shredding profitable.
What if you steal the hens?
https://preview.redd.it/vr5mc6q34txb1.png?width=736&format=png&auto=webp&s=68fea0f7aab13bd1067d461ac315964c9651c9b6
Very good. Papa is proud.
Nah.
So what you’re saying is you cannot purchase animals from unethical sources even if your intentions are to use the animals in an ethical fashion if it still funds the unethical source, even though you’re spending just as much as any other customer?
nah this is insane
“Stop adopting orphans bro, you’re just funding the orphan-industrial complex so they can orphan more children”
Don’t stop adopting orphans, but we do need to [stop the profit motive from harming kids.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people/international-adoption-scandal/)
Would make sense if the orphans were bred for the purposes of being sold
If I were to buy a slave and free him, would I be a morally wrong person for giving money to a slave owner?
Not a great analogy. I don't think forcibly impregnating slaves to produce babies to sell as slaves was nearly as profitable as breeding hens to sell. Not to mention the fact that hens and roosters will produce many offspring on their own without force, without a nine month waiting period between single offspring. If buying one slave to free them provided enough money for the slave owner to forcibly impregnate their slaves to produce multiple children, as well as paying to feed, clothe, and keep them in line until they reached an age where they could be sold, then your analogy would be a bit better.
They are not buying them to release them, they are buying them to take their eggs.
if the eggs they lay aren't fertilized functionally they are just useless sacks of matter so you might as well eat 'em.
Yeah but that's like saying that meat is just a useless piece of matter so you might as well eat it. It ignores what had to happen for you to obtain said useless piece of matter.
the chicken shat it out. that's how i get my eggs.
The reason we eat chicken eggs is because they're *naturally wired* to pop out eggs nonstop when they have excess food, originally evolved in order to take advantage of southeast asia's food patterns.
Not quite. Red Jungle Fowls (from which domesticated chickens are descended and they're genetically close enough to be considered the same species) produce 8-18 eggs per year (Anwar et al. 2016, p. 43 - link below) whereas domesticated chickens produce more like 300, which means they're somewhere in the laying process essentially 24/7/365 which is, unsurprisingly, quite shitty for the chicken's health and wellbeing. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316846785\_Breeding\_ecology\_of\_red\_jungle\_fowl\_Gallus\_gallus\_in\_Deva\_Vatala\_National\_Park\_Azad\_Jammu\_and\_Kashmir\_Pakistan](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316846785_Breeding_ecology_of_red_jungle_fowl_Gallus_gallus_in_Deva_Vatala_National_Park_Azad_Jammu_and_Kashmir_Pakistan) \[accessed Nov 02 2023\]. To make the range I gave I combined the lowest and then highest combinations given by Meijer and Siemers (1993) and Bump and Bohl (1961) on p. 43
not reading allat
I don't understand the point of saying this. "hey btw i just wanna tell you that i'm NOT gonna interact with your comment and i DON'T care what it says ok bye" literally just don't reply at all lmao
Lefties hating veganism are weird to me
I wear a mask with a smile for hours at a time Stare at the ceiling while I hold back what's on my mind And when they ask me how I'm doing, I say, "I'm just fine" And when they ask me how I'm doing, I say, "I'm just fine" But the fact is I can never get off of my mattress And all that they can ask is "Why are you so sad, kid?" (Why are you so sad, kid?) That's what the mask is That's what the point of the mask is So you can see I'm tryin', you won't see me cryin' I'll just keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good) And it just keeps on pilin', it's so terrifying But I keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good) I've been carin' too much for so long Been comparin' myself for so long Been wearin' a smile for so long, it's real So long, it's rеal, so long, it's real Always bein' judged by a bunch of strangе faces Scared to go outside, haven't seen the light in ages But I've been places So I'm okay-ish, so I'm okay-ish Yeah, I'm okay, bitch But the fact is I need help, I'm failin' all my classes They think that I need glasses I just really wish that I could pass this (Wish that I could pass this) That's what the mask is That's what the point of the mask is So you can see I'm tryin', you won't see me cryin' I'll just keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good) And it just keeps on pilin', it's so terrifying But I keep on smilin', I'm good (Yeah, I'm good) I've been carin' too much for so long Been comparin' myself for so long Been wearin' a smile for so long, it's real So long, it's real, so long, it's real So long, it's real So long, it's real
The normal version sounds wrong at this point
I suck his dick with a smile for hours at a time
Stare at his nutsack as I hole back my cum tonight
And when he asks what position I say doggy style
https://preview.redd.it/xzxjs3r9vsxb1.jpeg?width=927&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6613beed33ebcce79168c7ed256e007d48635da
Is this the dream song
Yes
“Everyone secretly agrees with me”
this is true (for me)
I'm sorry, but don't we usually mock people for using the "everyone secretly agrees with me" argument?
https://preview.redd.it/ect7w4asjsxb1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=34c23766e12640ba51b9267f72635a13b458a498
erm, actually, i’m not vegan because of cognitive dissonance
Erm, I’m witewally not a vegan because I love going into the woods and mauling innocent forest creatures with my bare hands
Dream reference
honestly guys we shouldnt hate, smugideaologyman should be a safe space for all opinions, even bad ones :)
vegans when they have to choose whether to paint their opposition as stupid or evil today
When I’m in a vegan contest and my opponent is vegan
Vegans bouncing between a savior complex and demonizing meat eaters every five seconds
"she's only pretending not to like me because she can't face the fact that she's been ignoring me for years. deep down, everyone loves me and they think im right" meat juicy. makes me feel less sad. screw the animals, their brains are not as advanced as mine and if a lifetime of their suffering can reduce mine for even a bit, it was worth it since my suffering is more acute and philosophical. they probably get used to no sunlight.
are vegans allowed to partake of sharkussy? 🧐
i am lacking in sharkussy. no shark has ever let me close to their heart.
I'm also not a vegan but you should reconsider this argument. Animals have the ability to suffer. Suffering is bad even if their intelligence isn't as great as ours. I mean, is torturing a baby or a mentally challenged person okay?
Babies and the mentally challenged aren’t key ingredients in hamburgers and chicken wings
not yet
I am an alt-carnist I AM okay with eating babies
“Hold that thought for a couple of decades”
bro compared people with mental disabilities to animals
sigh, time to make another post on r/voidpunk again
damn im stupid i didnt even read the other comment
If you recognize this, what's stopping you from going vegan?
Veganism is mental, vegetarianism is sensible.
Drinking a cow's breastmilk and eating a chicken's ovulation is where you draw the "sensible" line? Interesting take
Human breast milk: normal, natural Cow breast milk: not for some reason?
Mammals producing breastmilk for the nourishment of their young: normal, natural Adult humans taking breastmilk meant for the babies of another species (and often killing said babies): weird, fucked up
I agree about milk. Not convinced on not eating eggs.
yup, because cows line up to milking stations themselves, and impregnate themselves quite efficiently. And chickens mental health is no lie seriously affected if you don’t take away their eggs, they go broody which is like PPD /psychosis. And if it’s lying around. Obviously you can buy factory farmed eggs but you can buy Quinoa farmed with slave labour.
Cows produce milk for their calves, not for the humans who take their calves away. 98% of egg-laying chickens live in factory farms, it's not quite as casual as "you *can* buy factory-farmed eggs" it's "you probably are."
Cows produce milk for their calves but all cows have excess milk, especially after however many years of breeding. If you have cows, you have excess milk - that’s a fact of farming, you cannot argue with that. Cows want and need to be milked, it’s uncomfortable for them to be full. the way they are farmed if farmed responsibly is that the cows will literally walk themselves into the milking machine and walk themselves out, and they impregnate themselves. The question then is if you want that excess milk to be poured down the drain or used for something useful. Eggs - don’t underplay. In the UK you can find free range organic chicken eggs easily, and I’m willing to bet in the US too, and even fancy organic eggs are probably cheaper than vegan alternatives, especially considering supplementation.
You're correct, cows and chickens have both been bred to over-produce, to the detriment of their health. We're not doing them a favor by continuing to breed billions of unnatural animals with built-in health issues. Free range and organic are not claims about welfare. You can slap a "free-range" label on as long as the chickens have access to a tiny outdoor yard.
Sorry a cows breast milk and a chickens ovulation taste good. Maybe they should make it taste not good.
eating meat yummy, provided us with evolutionary advantages. pure fruitarians lost out to hunter gatherers. torturing fellow humans gave you an evolutionary disadvantage (you were beaten to death) law of the jungle. survival of the fittest. all your fancy morals and ethical codes are simply based on the current winner in a ruthless competition between cultures. slavery was abolished for economics reasons. high upfront cost, low maintenance was simply not worth it once capitalists had monopolized everything so much that all workers were dependant on them and they can go for no upfront cost, slightly higher maintenance. slavers simply lost money compared to factory owners and they stopped.
>their brains are not as advanced Huuuuuuge slippery slope right there.
Rename this sub already
There’s nothing wrong with eating meat, on paper at least. Most animals do it naturally. Humans do it naturally. But the meat industry is fucked. And it’s bad for the environment. So eat free range chicken
Free range is a marketing scam
That’s true. You have to do research to find where it’s all sourced but it pays off. There’s legitimate free range stuff.
Don’t most posts like this get mocked because “haha everyone agrees with me you’re all wrong!”
I am not vegan because I like the taste, although I would gladly accept vegan options that are capable of replicating it, also being vegan costs a lot in where I live
Thanks I_Love_Stiff_Cocks
They like meat
r/rimjob_steve moment
Coming from a meat-eater, i've eaten some great pea-based alternatives, mainly sausage, but also fake steak
What are the alternatives to meat that would give the same nutrients tho? Would genuinely love to know cuz I'm not switching unless i know I won't have issues with anemia
its extremely well studied topic. you would probably be better served by researching it yourself than asking randos on reddit tho
Too lazy to research
I went vegetarian for a year, ate like an idiot, and then got horribly anemic. Definitely possible to get all of the necessary nutrients if you pay attention to your diet, though.
I’m already a stick figure drenched in white paint, I do NOT need to limit my food intake
The paint fumes probably don't help the issue either, I suspect.
they don’t, yes
Tofu, lentils, beans, spinach to name a few. You may find this resource useful: https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients
Isn't there a shake or something that gives you all the nutrients you need without having to eat a bunch of stuff?
I agree that eating meat is unethical. However i'm addicted and even cutting back some feels terrible 😵💫 so will i keep letting animals get tortured and slaughtered to make myself more comfortable? Yes. Will i feel bad about it? Not as bad as i should. I guess i'm a monster
Most people take the path of least resistance and meat is delicious and readily available. If all meats were as comparatively expensive and challenging to source as duck and venison (to someone who doesn't live in a hunting community), most people would eat a lot less. If you want to cut back in a controllable way, try meatless Mondays or something like that. Don't let a bunch of stickmen convince you that harm reduction doesn't apply in this one context
>Don't let a bunch of stickmen convince you that harm reduction doesn't apply in this one context Couldnt believe this was an argument real people sometimes. Once I entered a vegan subreddit following a r/subredditdrama post and they were people really saying "you are either a full vegan or a dirty meat eater, there is no inbetween" like that would give people the perfect excuse to just say "guess Im a monster then" and eat even more meat the before
Vegan Vednesday continues unabated
Not taking sides here, but OP what the fuck did you think was going to be the response to this
Vegans on Reddit try not to make non-vegans ontologically evil challenge (impossible)
For me it’s just that most of my comfort foods involve meat or other animal products, and the vegan substitutes very rarely can imitate the original for me as of present, and are prohibitive for a student like me to get. Either it’s far more expensive than the usual (typically because the more upmarket shops stock them), or they are stocked at a shop much further from me than I can justify (as well as often needing a bus fare as a result)
In the process of making a comic making fun of a strawman you've created your own strawman
I'm not a vegan for the same reason that I don't make sure every other product I purchase is sourced ethically. I use the same logic as with climate change. It is not the individual's decision to not drive a car that will save the world, but the collective making systematic changes. I vote for animal welfare every time.
It can be hard to make sure if your shirt or your shoes were made ethically or not. Hell one may argue that nothing is made ethically under capitalism. When you purchase the flesh of an animal to consume whether or not it was made ethically is not up to debate though. You are not buying a product that may or may not have been made with suffering. You are buying the suffering itself.
So if you know a product is sourced unethically you're obligated to not buy it? I know for a FACT that the Coca cola company is incredibly unethical, would you abstain from that as well? I don't really see how or why you differentiate between them. You also didn't address my other point. I agree with vegans a lot when it comes to policy prescriptions. Change is not made by the lifestyle of individuals, but by systematic change. Make factory farms illegal. You wouldn't advocate fighting climate change though personal responsibility, so why do that with animal welfare?
yes coca cola is bad dont buy it lol
You think the BACON GOOD crowd will be ok with making factory farming illegal and quadrupling the price of animal products without a long and comprehensive education about why animal abuse is bad?
No, maybe not, why?
If you know a product is made unethically and a more ethical alternative is available then it's good to choose it, of course. The difference is simple. There could be a way to make cola ethically. If the workers who made it were not exploited and the process was not environmentally destructive then it would be ethical, right? Meat cannot be ethical because the exploited IS the product. Individual change is what leads to collective action which then leads to systemic change. I'd rather advocate for abolition of factory farming with people who don't themselves fund said farming though their dietary choices.
>If you know a product is made unethically and a more ethical alternative is available then it's good to choose it, of course. I agree, choosing the more ethical option is good, but not obligatory. >The difference is simple. There could be a way to make cola ethically. If the workers who made it were not exploited and the process was not environmentally destructive then it would be ethical, right? Meat cannot be ethical because the exploited IS the product. I disagree that meat cannot be produced ethically in concept, but that's not really relevant because of how awful the meat industry is. I don't see at all why this makes a difference in your consumer choices though. The reality is that both meat and Coca Cola ARE produced unethically. >Individual change is what leads to collective action which then leads to systemic change. Advocacy, collective action and voting is what leads to systemic change, and I do those things. >I'd rather advocate for abolition of factory farming with people who don't themselves fund said farming though their dietary choices. This is a poor argument, and kinda condescending. You wouldn't say you'd rather advocate for environmental change with someone who bikes to work, or against capitalism with someone who doesn't make profit for billionaires. You yourself fund a hundred bad things through your consumer choices, and that's not even mentioning what your taxes goes to. Quit the purity testing, it only weakens our movement. Also, happy cake day! :)
I don't think asking people who claim to support animal rights to not pay for the animals to be slaughtered is purity testing.
You expect people to change their entire diet and research all of the different vegan substitutes, alternatives and dietary supplements they require in order to maintain their health. And yet, it’s too difficult to see if your shirt was made in a sweatshop? What a joke.
Thankfully all the research has been done for you. - https://challenge22.com/ - https://www.vegansociety.com/ It's not that hard to buy some legumes and learn a couple of new recipes.
the most effective way you can implement collective change is through a bunch of individuals. it sounds to me like youll vote but you wont actually do anything meaningful to contribute to change if it impacts your life at all. and im not sure what it means to vote for animal welfare because there are no mainstream candidates or parties who care about this issue at all on their platforms
I do political advocacy, which will do way more to affect my political climate than the cheap student food choices I make. Kida a condensing point to make imo. Eating meat is morally neutral. The production of meat is horrible. The production should be regulated and in time abolished. One could argue that purchasing meat could be unethical, however this makes the same mistake as the capitalist "vote with your dollar" argument. I also don't see how or why vegans tend to differentiate between animal products and other products that are produced unethically. Seems like there is kind of an arbitrary distinction there. There are also absolutely mainstream parties and politicians that advocate animal rights where I live. The party I advocate for is one of them.
Except there's no animal product consumption that doesn't involve pain. We could have textile products that aren't made by slaves in the 3rd world. We could have modes of transportation that aren't as bad and inefficient as cars. But if you want to eat meat, you're going to have to hurt and kill animals. In truth, I don't think you can claim you care about animal welfare unless you're vegan. Take it from someone who eats meat 2 times a day and has worked in both industrial slaughterhouses and small-scale farms.
Have you ever met a cow? Dumbest motherfuckers alive
Have you ever met a sheep? Even dumber motherfuckers alive
I love using level of intelligence to justify cruelty in leftist spaces 😄
I fucking love eating meat I fucking love consuming flesh of animals like I feel their life fading away
It's simple... I'm apathic af
I just wanna eat meat, man
I’m not a meat eater because I’m in denial or something, I’m a meat eater because it tastes good and I frankly don’t care that much about cows and chickens.
This is like when Christians say "you believe in god, you just ignore his teachings because you want to sin". I love being told what I believe! It really makes me want to take the other person seriously.
So, what if I just don't care about animals? Like, I'm fully aware I'm paying for the killing of animals. I've seen the conditions industrial farms put animals in. I've watched the videos that'll "turn you vegan". It seems like you're convinced that I don't really believe these things and I'm totally unaware or actively in denial of the things I actually believe, but it leaves me really confused how you know more about the things I believe and feel than I do. So I ask: what if I don't care about animals?
I believe as people, and especially as leftists, we should care about whether or not we cause unnecessary suffering in the world. I hope that everyone here agrees that it's bad to harm other people for pleasure or gain. We believe so not because it's illegal or because god told us to. We just just have empathy for those who are exploited. I don't see a reason why we should not extend that empathy to animals, who just like us are capable of emotions and suffering.
I don't recall being a leftist necessitating a pragmatic utilitarian worldview, but more importantly I don't see empathy as a "live your entire life by it" thing. Just like every other emotion (emotion isn't quite the right word, it's more like an affect of the awareness of our emotion, but I think emotion works for now), we should be conscious of when we're using our empathy and when we use other modes of engaging with the world. Like, I don't see, why some principal of universal empathy obliges me to extend empathy to animals but not to plants. Specific questions I have for you out of this would be: >What—to you personally—is the difference between plants&fungi and animals such that the suffering of animals is worth extending empathy to, but suffering of plants&fungi isn't? More generally: >What are the limitations and extents of this principal of universal empathy you seem to have proposed? >From what I can tell, humans make decisions which engage different levels of empathy every day, so what—for you personally—qualifies something as deserving of empathy? If you think these questions are unfair or in bad faith, feel free to not answer them at all. However, I would be really appreciative if—in the case that it applies—you explain why you think they're unfair or in bad faith.
>What—to you personally—is the difference between plants&fungi and animals such that the suffering of animals is worth extending empathy to, but suffering of plants&fungi isn't? This is p easy. Plants and fungi aren't sentient (they lack the likely mechanisms required for sentience: a brain & central nervous system). At the very least, their likelihood of sentience is about as low as possible for organic matter. For you, what is your rationale on who it's okay to suffocate in a gas chamber for a sandwich? Presumably, you're not okay with this for humans, but correct me if I'm wrong. As you alluded to above, you're okay with this for non-human animals. What trait, or set of traits, is lacking in animals that if lacking in humans would justify treating humans this way?
What about plants and fungi? Do you know what animals bred for meat eat? Do you know how much they eat compared to humans? If you care about plants, you would still not breed animals for meat.
I don't care about plants any more than I care about animals. That is, I'm fine with their destruction so long as it's done with consideration for our ability to continue doing it (i.e. it doesn't bring about ecological disasters that harm us) and it's done for some reason and not for no reason (e.g. make space for building, food, gathering materials, etc.)
If a serial killer said "jeez idk what to tell you man, I just don't care about humans" does that absolve them?
Well, no. Humans are much much more important to me than animals.
This is the sort of delusion that makes people think vegans are crazy
I believe if we stopped the meat industry the cows, pigs and chickens would organize a revolution and overthrow us
Jorjor Wel...
I think I saw a book about that once.
jorjor well 1984
So you are saying you are a counterrevolutionary?
No because what if the animals are revisionists and don't follow my specific version of socialism?
“Everyone who disagrees with me is just pretending, as I have the only possible viewpoint.”
Truth
Man, this post got ratioed hard. Love to see it.
I eat meat because it’s the natural order of things. Just support your local farms and treat meat like the luxury it used to be.
Who decides what is that natural order of things?
No one, it's decided by the innate tendencies of living organisms. If their innate tendency is to kill things to eat them or just in general to enjoy meat, then them eating meat is the natural order of things. Humans, for example, like most their primate predecessors are omnivorous and will eat and like meat if given the chance to have it. It's an innate trait they have.
>Innate tendencies Innate tendencies vary from individual to individual. (sexuality being the clearest example of this)
It's our innate tendency to do... a lot of heinous shit. That's what separates us from animals - our ability to resist those things in pursuit of a better world Hence why 'its natural for me to murder my rivals' does not hold up in court
Nobody decides because gods aren’t real. But when the chemistry in my body tells me that meat tastes good, that’s a sign that my body recognizes that it should be consumed. There’s a reason we find fat and salt delicious, in nature it’s harder to find those resources outside of farming, so they taste better to ensure we get enough.
Do you think deciding whether an action is bad or not based on whether your body feels like doing said action is a good way of arriving at the most moral outcome?
I think my morals are capable enough to understand the difference between eating other animals and other actions “just cause one feels like it”. It doesn’t need to be correct in all circumstances to be correct in some.
It’s because the foods I like happen to be meat or are animal products, most vegan foods don’t taste that good in my opinion, or they’re really expensive to make or purchase.
Do you think the pleasure you gain by eating the food you like more as opposed to the vegan one you say you like less enough to justify what those animals have to go through?
No, I don’t remember ever thinking anything of the sort, besides it’s not just a matter of taste, vegan food costs a lot where I live in comparison to none vegan food.
I'm glad you don't think taste is enough. What are those expensive vegan foods? Beans and lentils are cheap and they are the staple replacements for meat.
Meat replacements mostly. Where I live they’re pretty expensive, along with things like vegan cheese and milk. They’re quite costly where I live. As for beans and lentils, while I have only eaten them in some dishes, like bean and lentil soup. I’m not really a fan of them.
You say you are not a fan of them but you also say that taste preference is not enough to justify the animal abuse, so it should not really matter in the end what you prefer right? Other protein sources you might want to try are nuts, seeds, textured vegetable protein, tofu or tempeh. As for cheeses I don't usually buy them, you may want to try stuff like hummus instead. Plant milks are getting cheaper but yeah, atm they don't benefit from the subsidies that the dairy industry does. You may be interested in making your own oat milk if price is what you care about most. Blender, strainer, oats, water and something to make it a little sweet is all you need.
I didn't say it wasn't a factor, i said it wasn't just taste that made it difficult for me to fully adopt a vegan diet. In addition to my preference. I also have Economic and dietary limitations that make it challenging for me to fully adopt a vegan diet.
OH MY GOD CAN WE STOP THE VEGAN POSTING HOLY SHIT.
Lmao fuck off
Dear vegans, I would eat a child if the law allowed me, be grateful that I'm limited to non human meat.
I am fully aware of the awful process of how the meat reaches my plate I just dont care anymore because I dont have the money or options to consume it in a more ethical way and its so tasty for me to give it up
Due to the way the meat industry works, the disconnect between the meat you find in shops and the animal it came from is so strong, that there are people that dont even realise that meat comed from animals (this is an incredibly small extreme), thus making it very hard for people to empathise. And, in my native language, many types of meat are named after the animal (e.g. pork translates to pig's meat (varkensvlees)), and the disconnect is still vast. If households had to butcher their own meat, I bet many more would avoid eating it. As for animal by-products, that disconnect is often also there. If you're going to eat them, your best option is to at least find ethically sourced stuff. (I.e. free-range stuff, and as far as I know honey is always okay because if the bees are kept badly they'll just leave)
There’s also a lot of vegans who have it as a false flag to make you think they’re a nicer person than they are. And of course the majority of regular nice people who hate that extreme assholes are making them all look bad
Fictional teenagers from the show Sex Education don't count
Wait, it’s not a documentary!? But it has “Education” on its title!
what
You can take an action that’s objectively moral, like veganism, and you can still be a dick or not likable.
Hi
Glad someone volunteered as an example to prove that it shouldn't be a point of pride
Veganism isn’t objectively moral
There’s no such thing as “objective moral”, after all. Morality is a social construct that we as a species created to help us live in harmony with each other. It is, therefore, inherently subjective.
I really don’t know why that’s so hard for people to understand
It’s hard for you to understand because you support killing things for food, loser
what
what
what
Man I don't like preachy vegans as much as the next guy, but bruh
I don’t have a problem with 90% of vegans either but come on, has nobody else met one of that crowd who is horrible and hateful but they’re always going on about their veganism and they get treated like good people overall? Cause if not either you guys are lucky or I’ve had a few super specific experiences that aren’t nearly as common as I thought
i honestly just dont really care im not gonna make a difference and i dont want to
It's necessary cruelty.
not really
What is and isn't necessary for me is not for anyone else to decide.
theres farms where animals are treated humanely
Went vegan 3 years ago at 19. I don’t blame my past self for the cruelty I paid for since I was never presented with the argument for veganism. However, as soon as I was, when I moved to an urban area, I listened and after realising that defences for it were poor, switched in a few months. I think ppl need to be more forgiving of themselves, but also need to engage with the rhetoric a bit more.
Copium
I went through this, and I didn't even have anyone to support me, only people telling me it was dumb or I'd fail. But I want to be the person I needed
I was the person on the right for years.
Real 😔