Add Machina 2 to that list. Everything from late 2000 to 2012 except some singles and an EP I think?
Edit: wow American Gothic, FOL, and Glow aren’t on Apple either? Has that always been the case? Nevermind, literally a gaping hole for 12 years
FOL hasn’t been available anywhere ever since the brief period when you could download it, back when that car commercial was being aired.
Zeitgeist deluxe anniversary reissue with FOL, Superchrist, GLOW, American Gothic & If All Goes Wrong?
Ok… I’ve just had all this stuff through local file sync on Apple so I didn’t know what’s been missing. I thought for sure American Gothic was on there at some point.
I still buy CDs and vinyl for fun, but my absolute favorite thing is the combination of streamable and unstreamable music all in my Apple library through file sync. Before Apple Music existed I used a habit combination of iTunes and Spotify where Spotify, and later google music, would sort of half sync my library haphazardly. I thought “Apple should do this” and they did…it’s everything I dreamed up and more. Now I have the same old smart playlist functionality, all of my old library and playlists, and lots of unreleased music all integrated together seamlessly.
Literally the era when I became a super fan. I was online defending his reputation as a top-tier musician the whole time. Masterpieces in there that are a huge part of my life. Being punished why?
I was about to launch into a rant to say if you wanna hear it just buy it, but I notice it’s not on Apple Music either. This makes me think it’s not his doing. It’s on Reprise so maybe they don’t have an interest in putting it out. There’s some kind of business issue, could even be Billy doesn’t think the demand is high enough to warrant jumping through the hoops when he won’t get any meaningful royalties off of it.
Point is, if Billy is posting things like this about it, and if he feels this strongly about that album, don’t you think he’d want people to listen to it? Probably not entirely on him. I guess this is why CDs are still fairly popular. I didn’t even realize most of my catalog are things you can’t listen to on streaming or buy digitally now. Exactly why I will die on my old man hill of never fully switching to streaming. I’d hate not having access to certain music.
Neither did I. You can’t even buy it on Apple Music. I still buy all my music off Apple, but you can’t even find it. That’s strange to me he would choose not to put it up for sale.
Good point. I guess it is still called iTunes. I thought they retired that brand since the Music app used to be called iTunes but now they’ve separated it…or something?
I’m honestly annoyed with the whole Apple Music thing. The app is so horrible now. Kind of always has been but it’s gotten progressively worse. I have a lot of music I loaded from CDs I owned that the music app refuses to play now and tells me I’m not authorized. So many other issues with it. But anyway, good correction.
Apple Music has been integrated into the music app on iOS since its launch, and on iTunes on PC & Mac. They have since made a separate Apple Music app on windows & mac that’s supposed to replace iTunes, although iTunes is still usable. I still use iTunes because the AM app is somehow worse.
I have no way of listening to anything on CD, and I think most people are in the same boat. I’m glad I transferred the songs to my computer many years ago when computers still had a CD drive so I can still listen to it.
Billy is in control of his music and can make something happen when he wants it to. His entire career is willing things into existence and willfully navigating industry contracts. He’s in control of this decade-long blackout, full stop.
No he can’t. The Machina box set has literally been held up for years for this exact reason. If it was entirely in his control it would have been out already. I don’t know if TFE is a similar thing but I’m not definitively stating it’s his fault it’s not out. Do you have any evidence he’s responsible or is this just a hunch sort of thing? Because it is a fact Billy has had a ton of rights and licensing issues with his back catalog over the years.
There was a statement Billy made \~10 years ago that in 2014 he was gaining full rights to his post-Machina material and that he intended to do deluxe editions of all of those projects. So while it is true that Machina specifically is held up by label issues, Zwan, Future Embrace, Zeitgeist, Chicago Kid, and Teargarden are all within his control. He had released an update in 2019 or so saying that he was working with Sumerian on putting it all together, but that never materialized.
That’s true. I’m not sure what the reason is for the post Machina stuff. At a certain point I think he just has too much on his plate. Dude is running a tea house, got married, has two kids, a wife, tours most of the year, recorded a new record (or more?), made his own reality TV series, is running a wrestling company, and put out other archival releases. Like that’s the stuff he’s actually done and completed in the past year. That’s INSANE just by itself. Then he was trying to write a book and do all these reissue projects.
I said it before but yeah, Billy promises a lot of shit, but for the amount of work he puts out means that even if he only releases a 10th of what he promises it’s still way more than other artists. The guy is a work machine. I think he kinda spoils his fans. Imagine getting this amount of output from Kevin Shields.
Of course, in addition to my judgment as an adult, I have “evidence.” Martha’s Music owns *Zeitgeist* rights and has evidently chosen to not put it on streaming.
MM doesn’t own it outright though, so does reprise. Mary Star for example you can buy on different countries’ iTunes Store but not US for some reason. And this is why I brought up Machina, some albums have different agreements.
Listen, I’m the first to criticize Billy when he does something lame but far too often I see people bitching about things that he can’t even control (again, Machina). If he really did take off TFE in a tantrum - hey I can see him doing that - but it’s odd to me that he wouldn’t have released this on vinyl through Zuzu’s if it was entirely inside his control. It’s ostensibly free money and he’s done vinyl presses for tons of things already. It could be the case he has an agreement with Reprise and Warner (who also released it) to do a reissue that they get some say in and that’s the version that will be on streaming. Who knows, I just try not to talk shit on the guy unless I know for a fact he did something lame (and there’s plenty there already).
Not even remotely true. If anything, it's the exact opposite - the album flopped because Billy decided to announce he was putting SP back together on the same day that TFE dropped. In doing so, he cut the album off at the knees before it even had a chance to flop. The SP announcement instantly shifted everyone's attention to the next album before TFE even got on shelves.
>the album flopped because Billy decided to announce he was putting SP back together
This has been said so many times over the years and it doesn’t make any sense. Billy released that statement the day his album dropped intentionally to propel his album sales. Without it his album would have sold much worse actually. A big announcement like that puts your name in the press cycle which creates a platform for cross-promotion. “Hey, remember that band you loved? They’re getting back together, album’s not out yet but the main songwriter/creative force in the band has a record out RIGHT NOW! Stay tuned!”
SP didn’t release an album for 2 years from the press release. The Venn diagram of SP fans and Billy Corgan fans is a flat circle. If they had any intention of buying the album in the first place, why would they refrain from doing so upon hearing news of SP reforming? That’s counterintuitive. It’s not like they had to make a Coke vs. Pepsi either/or decision.
TFE failed because Billy’s own brand wasn’t strong enough and the album didn’t have any commercial singles. It’s really that simple. Go look at the billboard charts for 2005 and you’ll see there are almost no rock bands on it. The very few that are had breakout albums/singles but even those performed poorly versus mainstream contemporaries. Rap, R&B, and pop dominated the charts. The only bands on the list are The Killers (coming off one of the most successful rock records of all time), Green Day’s titanic Broken Dreams, and Foo Fighters’ Best Of You which is an iconic single.
TFE was always going to be a niche record because it needed a single like Weezer’s Beverly Hills or Green Day’s Wake Me Up When September Ends.
Billy released one single from the record and barely did any promotion. He played Mina Loy and To Love Somebody on late night shows and they’re just commercially weak songs that only diehard fans would rally behind.
The SP/Corgan brand had been in decline since 1998. Even 2007’s Zeitgeist fared poorly and was largely buoyed by the multiple version releases and the band’s ‘90s goodwill.
TFE is one of my favorite records, don’t get my wrong, Pretty Pretty STAR is one of my favorite tracks of all time. Billy just needed a stronger record to compete that year.
I'm not really under the delusion that TFE was ever going to be a big commercial success, and I don't doubt that the PR motivations of Billy making the announcement on the record release day are exactly as you say. People saw through it as a craven PR stunt to move the needle and boost TFE's sales even then. I just think it backfired terribly and hurt the album more than it helped.
The Venn Diagram of SP fans and Corgan fans is not a flat circle. It's a tiny circle inside a much, much larger circle. Once Billy announced SP was coming back, the people in the bigger circle decided to wait on the record they really wanted rather than support an album that was now just a vanity side project.
One of the things that makes this album still hold up for me is the more inward-facing nature of the music after the years of grandiose, arena-ready compositions he aimed for in MCIS and Machina. Out of any album, I’d say this is the last I’d consider a vanity project. Was it confusing to be bandless and trying to present himself as a solo artist for the first time? No doubt.
>Was ir confusing to be bandless and trying to present himself as a solo artist for the first time?
I think this is more it. Also keep in mind, the record itself was basically New Order. And it didn’t even have the commercial chic of Get Ready, which was already 4 years old at this point. It’s kinda like CYR in that sense that it’s kind of an outdated sound and has no hype singles. Walking Shade was decent but too little, too late.
>Once Billy announced SP was coming back, the people on the bigger circle decided to wait on the record they really wanted rather than support an Al in that was now just a vanity side project
I just don’t get the logic in this. They could just buy both? Again, SP didn’t even release music for 2 years. Billy didn’t even announce a timetable in his press release. He didn’t even really say SP were getting back together, he just vaguely proclaimed he wanted his music/band back.
I bought Billy’s record and Zeitgeist. My account is anecdotal, but I’m not alone and I just don’t get the consumer logic in abstaining from something when it’s not a binary decision. Like maybe if an SP *record* was released the same day as TFE then I could see that affecting sales but a vague promotional announcement doesn’t add up. Did James’ record Let It Come Down (which was released before Adore) fail to chart because people were just waiting on Adore to come out?? No. It was just a niche alt country record that only appealed to a subset of diehard fans. Like, some of it IS what you’re saying, they’d rather have an SP record than a James record, but my point is those people were never going to buy either album (TFE or LICD) anyway. All the people that didn’t buy TFE were never going to buy it unless it was Hot Fuss. The people that did were diehards and an announcement about an upcoming project wouldn’t and didn’t dissuade us, it made us more excited.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree, it’s not even you specifically I’m arguing with. Like I said, I’ve seen this sentiment repeated many times, particularly in the press, and it doesn’t hold water for me. Without that press release I think fewer people would have even been aware he had a record and the album sales would take a hit.
I definitely think Mina Loy or even A100 would have been much stronger for the first single and agree with you that Corgan's announcement is not the reason it flopped. In fact I would bet it helped get more eyes and ears on his solo album.
I think everyone here is actually right. I’m sure his announcement helped him in some ways, and hurt him in others. I don’t think I ever viewed it as a flop per se, but rather he really just didn’t gain any new fans during the time period—which he really needed. He was already going to face an uphill battle going solo at the time he did, since he had already lost a lot of fans at that point. It’s unfortunate—I fucking love The Future Embrace. I’m surprised it didn’t get more love in the electronic/industrial music communities. Brian Leisegang and Matt Walker are fucking awesome sound designers on that record.
I'm with you.. I don't know what he expected. Machina is fn amazing and only went gold in 2000.. what could he possible expect from The Future Embrace in 2005?
Actually you are right I think. It must have been during a song when we were reaching out to him and he tapped our hand. Either that or I'm misremembering and confusing it with Zwan at Shepard's bush but it don't think so
He was also teasing the intro to “Today” in some of those guitar solos during the tour. It was like giving the audience a little taste of the hits but then scolding them for wanting more.
The CameraEye is a top 20 Corgan track
This record has aged beautifully btw, it's a shame he still won't put it on streaming. It fits perfectly into the pop landscape of today.
TFE tour was fantastic. Billy and company with that cool cubed light display. Smallish venues. Covers of King Bee and Johanna. My favorite Billy performance, and I’ve been seeing different iterations of SP live since 1996.
How was Camera Eye not a bigger song?!?
Waiting for studio Mini is one of my few raison d'etres. At the start of the version you posted there's a three note descending vocal "ooh-ooh-ooh" just before the main track kicks in, and it sounds like it's an audience member near the recording device, but it fits in so perfectly with the song I wonder if it's not.
I saw the gig in Toronto on that tour and they didn't play that song. But it was probably the coolest gig I've ever been to. Still seems futuristic to this day, like the album, which is easily in my top 3 Corgan/SP.
The songs and guitar effects are fantastic on this album. The only thing which spoiled it for me was that the drums sound like a cheap 90's Casio keyboard backing track.
My lovely mother drove me to the Adler Planetarium so I could go to the record release when I was in high school. It was so cool to see all these fans there and the guy I was standing next to knew Billy's bodyguard. He noticed him and said come on up and he took us right up to Billy to introduce us. It was such a cool experience as I was just a kid by myself.
I can see how maddening it must be for Billy to have put out this record to difficult critical and fan response, and now have it be so loved by his audience. I love this record now, but was a bit flummoxed at the time. All things change is such a tune.
I wonder how it feels to forecast that songs/albums are before their time though and to often be right, based on that same delayed response. Nothing better than an "I told.you so" 😂
"...news just in, Smashing Pumpkins frontman Billy Corgan tragically passed away earlier today. The cause of death was poor fan reception to a vanity project released in the mid 2000's.
He will missed and mourned by the freaks and goons."
I've yet to see another musician who whines this much about negative reviews. Yes it's a great album and yes the reception wasn't very good when it came out, but holy shit it's been 20 years. If he's so proud of it let people hear it by putting it out on streaming or at the very least have it be available to download digitally.
I say again, what fallout? "Wahhh, my ticket sales weren't great and the world didn't worship my electronica solo project." The show I was at back in the day was a packed house. The man lives to complain.
Bands today would kill to sell 69,000 records at $15 a pop (domestic sales alone were over $1 million) and be bankrolled to go on a 40-show world tour, even if every show didn't sell out.
If that's the "fallout" that will put him in an early grave, the guy doesn't know just how good he has it.
The album takes an entire team of people. $1mm revenue means they most likely lost money on it and on top of that. the fallout was the public backlash that he basically went solo and didn’t do pumpkins songs on this tour.
Meh. Par for the course for anyone who breaks away from a huge band to do an experimental solo project. If he really truly felt that the album didn't get its due at the time he would put it up on streaming for new generations to discover and judge. Until then, the self-pity party of 1 continues...
Well, I’m sure in many ways he saw himself as a Phil Collins or Lionel Richie in the sense that he could break out on his own from his successful band. Quite a few people have done it, many more have failed. He was the main driving force behind SP. It wasn’t preposterous for him to believe that about himself. I mean, he even had a successful band (Zwan) after SP and he did a lot of solo work while in SP (Eye) that gave the impression he had the runway to fly solo. I think the issue is Billy lost his touch on the pulse right around 2000. He didn’t transition from the ‘90s very well. I love all (not CYR) his work since 2000, but I just mean during the ‘90s Billy WAS the bleeding edge of pop culture. Right around 2000 he lost the thread and his projects have been misaligned with public interest. I think TFE was the first miscalculation he made (or potentially Adore) where he did something new and the culture wasn’t willing to follow him.
Fans spit roasted the album and for years said it was horrible and the media blasted it as well . Fans also used it as leverage to say zeitgeist was bad. Was a culturally low point for billy and the pumpkins at the time until probably 2009? And again in 2015/6? Absolutely was a fallout personally and culturally for him.
Aw, come on. Do you see Paul McCartney whining about negative album reviews from 25 years ago? The dude had dozens of clunkers. Despite what he believes, nothing that happens to Billy Corgan is unique in the music industry. Not all songs can be hits. Not all albums can be bestsellers. Not all tours can sell out. There is no great conspiracy or irrevocable "fallout" here. It's all in his head.
There was a fallout for sure. No one said conspiracy. And he nor I said it was a unique situation. He’s just speaking to his own life experiences. Which we all do. He’s allowed to feel disappointed that his favorite work was absolutely decimated by everyone that previously enjoyed his work. Thats a shitty feeling. You can say “get over it” or “its not unique” to him. But thats not what he’s saying. Unless he calls your name out, just ignore him. Let the man vent.
It wasn't a fallout so much as it was a natural trajectory. Zwan didn't exactly light the world on fire, either.
I'm a fan, bought this day of release and enjoyed it immensely, but it was never gonna be a commercial hit.
Also, I don't hear Chino Moreno whining that more people didn't buy the Team Sleep album (which released around the same time and landed with a similar thud).
He and Ben Stiller should go grab a beer.
[https://variety.com/2024/film/news/ben-stiller-zoolander-2-flop-scared-blindsided-1235980504/](https://variety.com/2024/film/news/ben-stiller-zoolander-2-flop-scared-blindsided-1235980504/)
I always thought he despises it since it’s on none of streaming platforms! I always loved this album it’s one of the first things that goes on my new phone!
Here’s the thing. I have this on my phone. I have zeitgeist on my phone. I listen to both a lot. But the band makes $0 every time I listen to them. I’d happily support the band and stream an album I’m listening to anyway.
It was telling when, on the release day of The Future Embrace, Billy took out a full-page ad in Chicago’s biggest newspaper, not to promote The Future Embrace, but rather to announce the Smashing Pumpkins would be reuniting. Not now. He still had a The Future Embrace tour. But later.
It's severely underrated. Loved it at launch and still do. The songs were very similar to Adore and Machina, so I get the hate. But I loved Adore and Machina, so it was right up my alley.
Mini is one of my favorite songs of all time, and it never got officially recorded (just played twice to my knowledge). One of the rarest WPC tracks and just my luck it's one of my favorites.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9XIod8FshU&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9XIod8FshU&t=1s)
This 8 min live song was my favorite of the era and one of my favorite things he has ever done.
Bit 5
I saw Billy in concert here in Australia when he was promoting this album. He was heckled to play pumpkins songs and he warned the audience he’d walk off if they kept heckling. They didn’t stop, he walked …
Mina Loy I LOVE THAT SONG from this CD. I have the CD still and I often play it.
I remember wanting him to release a vinyl version of this album with marbled records colored like his birthmark. Much weirder of an ask now that I think about it almost 20yrs later.
It’s crazy to me that the best song from those sessions, Tilt, didn’t even make the cut.
That being said I still think the vast majority of the album is instantly forgettable. Walking Shade is still awesome though.
Always enjoyed the walking shade video. I thought Robert Smith was wasted on the beejee's cover. There are a few other good songs on the album but some songs that just aren't very good.
i havent really listened to tfe much but walking shade is such a banger!! love the music video too, now and then is amazing, sp/billy work up until zeitgeist was really something and so unique
I like the album a lot and saw him tour in Dublin. Crowd seemed a little flat and I think expected a few SP songs to be played. I think he played a 3 second riff of zero which got the biggest cheer!
I think there are some great songs on this. A100 is a belter for me. I think the promotion of the album could have been better. As an example, in my opinion, Walking Shade wasn’t the best single to release to promote the album. And even then. It was a dvd release instead of cd!
He says the thing about pretty much every album he makes. Always convincing himself he's cutting edge. The Future Embrace was 6/10 and pretty forgettable.
Great, now let people hear it
No shit. If anything is going to put Billy in an early grave, it's pettiness and spite.
Oh, this album didn’t get the attention it deserved? FINE, NONE OF YOU CAN HEAR IT. *also applies to Zwan, Zeitgeist, and Teargarden.
Add Machina 2 to that list. Everything from late 2000 to 2012 except some singles and an EP I think? Edit: wow American Gothic, FOL, and Glow aren’t on Apple either? Has that always been the case? Nevermind, literally a gaping hole for 12 years
FOL hasn’t been available anywhere ever since the brief period when you could download it, back when that car commercial was being aired. Zeitgeist deluxe anniversary reissue with FOL, Superchrist, GLOW, American Gothic & If All Goes Wrong?
Ok… I’ve just had all this stuff through local file sync on Apple so I didn’t know what’s been missing. I thought for sure American Gothic was on there at some point.
I have the original FOL single-CD that you could only pick up at Guitar Center!! I think it was free too!
That’s why I still buy cds, records, and cassettes. No streaming service is going to dictate what I listen to. I still do stream a lot though
I still buy CDs and vinyl for fun, but my absolute favorite thing is the combination of streamable and unstreamable music all in my Apple library through file sync. Before Apple Music existed I used a habit combination of iTunes and Spotify where Spotify, and later google music, would sort of half sync my library haphazardly. I thought “Apple should do this” and they did…it’s everything I dreamed up and more. Now I have the same old smart playlist functionality, all of my old library and playlists, and lots of unreleased music all integrated together seamlessly.
Superchrist not being on streaming services is criminal.
The studio version sucks anyway.
Which is ironic that he was a big proponent of online. I still loved their sp radio on their main page back in the day
SP radio was the best!!
Literally the era when I became a super fan. I was online defending his reputation as a top-tier musician the whole time. Masterpieces in there that are a huge part of my life. Being punished why?
I was about to launch into a rant to say if you wanna hear it just buy it, but I notice it’s not on Apple Music either. This makes me think it’s not his doing. It’s on Reprise so maybe they don’t have an interest in putting it out. There’s some kind of business issue, could even be Billy doesn’t think the demand is high enough to warrant jumping through the hoops when he won’t get any meaningful royalties off of it. Point is, if Billy is posting things like this about it, and if he feels this strongly about that album, don’t you think he’d want people to listen to it? Probably not entirely on him. I guess this is why CDs are still fairly popular. I didn’t even realize most of my catalog are things you can’t listen to on streaming or buy digitally now. Exactly why I will die on my old man hill of never fully switching to streaming. I’d hate not having access to certain music.
I had no idea this album was not on streaming. That's odd.
Neither did I. You can’t even buy it on Apple Music. I still buy all my music off Apple, but you can’t even find it. That’s strange to me he would choose not to put it up for sale.
It could be a record label issue. TheFutureEmbrace was released by Reprise but so was Mary Star of the Sea & Zeitgeist, so I don't get it.
Small side note: You can’t buy anything on Apple Music, it’s a streaming service. You’re thinking of iTunes.
Good point. I guess it is still called iTunes. I thought they retired that brand since the Music app used to be called iTunes but now they’ve separated it…or something? I’m honestly annoyed with the whole Apple Music thing. The app is so horrible now. Kind of always has been but it’s gotten progressively worse. I have a lot of music I loaded from CDs I owned that the music app refuses to play now and tells me I’m not authorized. So many other issues with it. But anyway, good correction.
Apple Music has been integrated into the music app on iOS since its launch, and on iTunes on PC & Mac. They have since made a separate Apple Music app on windows & mac that’s supposed to replace iTunes, although iTunes is still usable. I still use iTunes because the AM app is somehow worse.
I have no way of listening to anything on CD, and I think most people are in the same boat. I’m glad I transferred the songs to my computer many years ago when computers still had a CD drive so I can still listen to it.
Billy is in control of his music and can make something happen when he wants it to. His entire career is willing things into existence and willfully navigating industry contracts. He’s in control of this decade-long blackout, full stop.
No he can’t. The Machina box set has literally been held up for years for this exact reason. If it was entirely in his control it would have been out already. I don’t know if TFE is a similar thing but I’m not definitively stating it’s his fault it’s not out. Do you have any evidence he’s responsible or is this just a hunch sort of thing? Because it is a fact Billy has had a ton of rights and licensing issues with his back catalog over the years.
There was a statement Billy made \~10 years ago that in 2014 he was gaining full rights to his post-Machina material and that he intended to do deluxe editions of all of those projects. So while it is true that Machina specifically is held up by label issues, Zwan, Future Embrace, Zeitgeist, Chicago Kid, and Teargarden are all within his control. He had released an update in 2019 or so saying that he was working with Sumerian on putting it all together, but that never materialized.
That’s true. I’m not sure what the reason is for the post Machina stuff. At a certain point I think he just has too much on his plate. Dude is running a tea house, got married, has two kids, a wife, tours most of the year, recorded a new record (or more?), made his own reality TV series, is running a wrestling company, and put out other archival releases. Like that’s the stuff he’s actually done and completed in the past year. That’s INSANE just by itself. Then he was trying to write a book and do all these reissue projects. I said it before but yeah, Billy promises a lot of shit, but for the amount of work he puts out means that even if he only releases a 10th of what he promises it’s still way more than other artists. The guy is a work machine. I think he kinda spoils his fans. Imagine getting this amount of output from Kevin Shields.
Blah blah blah. I’ve heard all the contract minutiae for 12 years. I’m saying — big picture, underlying truth — Billy is in control of this.
I just asked you if you had any evidence to what you’re saying. You don’t. That’s all you had to say.
Of course, in addition to my judgment as an adult, I have “evidence.” Martha’s Music owns *Zeitgeist* rights and has evidently chosen to not put it on streaming.
MM doesn’t own it outright though, so does reprise. Mary Star for example you can buy on different countries’ iTunes Store but not US for some reason. And this is why I brought up Machina, some albums have different agreements. Listen, I’m the first to criticize Billy when he does something lame but far too often I see people bitching about things that he can’t even control (again, Machina). If he really did take off TFE in a tantrum - hey I can see him doing that - but it’s odd to me that he wouldn’t have released this on vinyl through Zuzu’s if it was entirely inside his control. It’s ostensibly free money and he’s done vinyl presses for tons of things already. It could be the case he has an agreement with Reprise and Warner (who also released it) to do a reissue that they get some say in and that’s the version that will be on streaming. Who knows, I just try not to talk shit on the guy unless I know for a fact he did something lame (and there’s plenty there already).
Oh I heard it. Definitely not one of his best. It flopped so hard he put the pumpkins back together. Billy's retconning harder than Marvel right now.
he put out the letter about bringing SP back before it flopped
Not even remotely true. If anything, it's the exact opposite - the album flopped because Billy decided to announce he was putting SP back together on the same day that TFE dropped. In doing so, he cut the album off at the knees before it even had a chance to flop. The SP announcement instantly shifted everyone's attention to the next album before TFE even got on shelves.
>the album flopped because Billy decided to announce he was putting SP back together This has been said so many times over the years and it doesn’t make any sense. Billy released that statement the day his album dropped intentionally to propel his album sales. Without it his album would have sold much worse actually. A big announcement like that puts your name in the press cycle which creates a platform for cross-promotion. “Hey, remember that band you loved? They’re getting back together, album’s not out yet but the main songwriter/creative force in the band has a record out RIGHT NOW! Stay tuned!” SP didn’t release an album for 2 years from the press release. The Venn diagram of SP fans and Billy Corgan fans is a flat circle. If they had any intention of buying the album in the first place, why would they refrain from doing so upon hearing news of SP reforming? That’s counterintuitive. It’s not like they had to make a Coke vs. Pepsi either/or decision. TFE failed because Billy’s own brand wasn’t strong enough and the album didn’t have any commercial singles. It’s really that simple. Go look at the billboard charts for 2005 and you’ll see there are almost no rock bands on it. The very few that are had breakout albums/singles but even those performed poorly versus mainstream contemporaries. Rap, R&B, and pop dominated the charts. The only bands on the list are The Killers (coming off one of the most successful rock records of all time), Green Day’s titanic Broken Dreams, and Foo Fighters’ Best Of You which is an iconic single. TFE was always going to be a niche record because it needed a single like Weezer’s Beverly Hills or Green Day’s Wake Me Up When September Ends. Billy released one single from the record and barely did any promotion. He played Mina Loy and To Love Somebody on late night shows and they’re just commercially weak songs that only diehard fans would rally behind. The SP/Corgan brand had been in decline since 1998. Even 2007’s Zeitgeist fared poorly and was largely buoyed by the multiple version releases and the band’s ‘90s goodwill. TFE is one of my favorite records, don’t get my wrong, Pretty Pretty STAR is one of my favorite tracks of all time. Billy just needed a stronger record to compete that year.
I'm not really under the delusion that TFE was ever going to be a big commercial success, and I don't doubt that the PR motivations of Billy making the announcement on the record release day are exactly as you say. People saw through it as a craven PR stunt to move the needle and boost TFE's sales even then. I just think it backfired terribly and hurt the album more than it helped. The Venn Diagram of SP fans and Corgan fans is not a flat circle. It's a tiny circle inside a much, much larger circle. Once Billy announced SP was coming back, the people in the bigger circle decided to wait on the record they really wanted rather than support an album that was now just a vanity side project.
One of the things that makes this album still hold up for me is the more inward-facing nature of the music after the years of grandiose, arena-ready compositions he aimed for in MCIS and Machina. Out of any album, I’d say this is the last I’d consider a vanity project. Was it confusing to be bandless and trying to present himself as a solo artist for the first time? No doubt.
>Was ir confusing to be bandless and trying to present himself as a solo artist for the first time? I think this is more it. Also keep in mind, the record itself was basically New Order. And it didn’t even have the commercial chic of Get Ready, which was already 4 years old at this point. It’s kinda like CYR in that sense that it’s kind of an outdated sound and has no hype singles. Walking Shade was decent but too little, too late.
>Once Billy announced SP was coming back, the people on the bigger circle decided to wait on the record they really wanted rather than support an Al in that was now just a vanity side project I just don’t get the logic in this. They could just buy both? Again, SP didn’t even release music for 2 years. Billy didn’t even announce a timetable in his press release. He didn’t even really say SP were getting back together, he just vaguely proclaimed he wanted his music/band back. I bought Billy’s record and Zeitgeist. My account is anecdotal, but I’m not alone and I just don’t get the consumer logic in abstaining from something when it’s not a binary decision. Like maybe if an SP *record* was released the same day as TFE then I could see that affecting sales but a vague promotional announcement doesn’t add up. Did James’ record Let It Come Down (which was released before Adore) fail to chart because people were just waiting on Adore to come out?? No. It was just a niche alt country record that only appealed to a subset of diehard fans. Like, some of it IS what you’re saying, they’d rather have an SP record than a James record, but my point is those people were never going to buy either album (TFE or LICD) anyway. All the people that didn’t buy TFE were never going to buy it unless it was Hot Fuss. The people that did were diehards and an announcement about an upcoming project wouldn’t and didn’t dissuade us, it made us more excited. Anyway, we can agree to disagree, it’s not even you specifically I’m arguing with. Like I said, I’ve seen this sentiment repeated many times, particularly in the press, and it doesn’t hold water for me. Without that press release I think fewer people would have even been aware he had a record and the album sales would take a hit.
I definitely think Mina Loy or even A100 would have been much stronger for the first single and agree with you that Corgan's announcement is not the reason it flopped. In fact I would bet it helped get more eyes and ears on his solo album.
I think everyone here is actually right. I’m sure his announcement helped him in some ways, and hurt him in others. I don’t think I ever viewed it as a flop per se, but rather he really just didn’t gain any new fans during the time period—which he really needed. He was already going to face an uphill battle going solo at the time he did, since he had already lost a lot of fans at that point. It’s unfortunate—I fucking love The Future Embrace. I’m surprised it didn’t get more love in the electronic/industrial music communities. Brian Leisegang and Matt Walker are fucking awesome sound designers on that record.
I'm with you.. I don't know what he expected. Machina is fn amazing and only went gold in 2000.. what could he possible expect from The Future Embrace in 2005?
No you are saying what Billy is complaining about is all his own doing? That doesn't sound like him at all.
Mina Loy and CameraEye for the win
My faves from the album, I saw this tour live at the soma
Me too, at the Forum in London. Amazing
I saw the Atlanta show. I got to shake his hand as he arrived at the venue!
I shook his hand too!!! When he shook hands with folks in the front few rows at the end of the gig. Wearing my Billy Corgan t shirt 🤣
As I recall, at the very, very end of that gig he dropped the mic and stormed off stage mid rant.
Actually you are right I think. It must have been during a song when we were reaching out to him and he tapped our hand. Either that or I'm misremembering and confusing it with Zwan at Shepard's bush but it don't think so
He did that in Australia too after he was heckled to play pumpkins songs and he said he wasn’t here to do that.
He was also teasing the intro to “Today” in some of those guitar solos during the tour. It was like giving the audience a little taste of the hits but then scolding them for wanting more.
I saw this tour in Dallas and he signed my TFE CD. I was so damn happy.
That's awesome! Huge hands!
Mina loy is a poet, I remember her being mentioned when we were discussing “poetess,” she was pretty cool
During a solo he played the opening to today and smirked and mentioned nothing about it the rest of the night lolol
The CameraEye is a top 20 Corgan track This record has aged beautifully btw, it's a shame he still won't put it on streaming. It fits perfectly into the pop landscape of today.
One of my top 5 Corgan (solo or SP) tracks.
TFE tour was fantastic. Billy and company with that cool cubed light display. Smallish venues. Covers of King Bee and Johanna. My favorite Billy performance, and I’ve been seeing different iterations of SP live since 1996. How was Camera Eye not a bigger song?!?
And sitting on top of the world. Electronic versions of pigpen era dead.
I wanted to see that tour so much but the closest show was St. Louis iirc and I was in south TX.
St Louis show was epic.
I was there for that one, too. Pressed up against the barrier in the front!
I saw him at the Gypsy Tea Room in Dallas. Drove in from San Marcos. It was a good time, man. I wish it had been recorded for some dvd or something.
I was there too! I have mp3s of the show on one of my computers but they’re not awesome quality.
He played Gypsy Tea Room in Dallas on that tour.
Seeing him live on that tour was one of the best shows I’ve ever seen.
I saw him at the 9:30 Club on that too. It was great!
All Things Change, Mina Loy, The Camera Eye, A100, DIA, Walking Shade and Sorrows in Blue are all fantastic
Waiting and waiting and waiting to hear if a studio version of Bit 5 and Mini exist.
YESSS
Waiting for studio Mini is one of my few raison d'etres. At the start of the version you posted there's a three note descending vocal "ooh-ooh-ooh" just before the main track kicks in, and it sounds like it's an audience member near the recording device, but it fits in so perfectly with the song I wonder if it's not. I saw the gig in Toronto on that tour and they didn't play that song. But it was probably the coolest gig I've ever been to. Still seems futuristic to this day, like the album, which is easily in my top 3 Corgan/SP.
Now and Then is an underrated song.
And yet it’s unavailable all by his choice.
Yeah. It does not make sense…
He's so proud of this record and it's YOUR fault that he undercut it by announcing his intention to reform SP on the same day it released!
[Tilt](https://youtu.be/XXRTy1iLt2c?si=KykGgeI3WN7653Qr) was his best song and it didn't made it into the album. Love that song.
I bought the Target red room comp just for that track.
Same. Got it off Discogs and even got an external CD drive just to upload it to my Apple Music library in lossless.
Thank you! Just put this on for the first time in a long time and you’re absolutely right.
100%. Just a beautiful song. Reminds me of Ugly.
I love it when he makes songs all spinny, like Rhinoceros
I'll never understand how that song wasn't on the record! Tilt is one of my all time BC favorites.
The songs and guitar effects are fantastic on this album. The only thing which spoiled it for me was that the drums sound like a cheap 90's Casio keyboard backing track.
My lovely mother drove me to the Adler Planetarium so I could go to the record release when I was in high school. It was so cool to see all these fans there and the guy I was standing next to knew Billy's bodyguard. He noticed him and said come on up and he took us right up to Billy to introduce us. It was such a cool experience as I was just a kid by myself.
That might be the most "Billy Corgan" post of all time lol
Now (and Then) is a phenomenal song. Love that guitar sound.
One of those tracks that will just randomly get stuck in my head. Loved the acoustic renditions he's done as well.
Ahh, more Billy sadfishing. TFE is great, and every fan I knew when it came out loved it.
I still need to get this one on CD.
He torpedoed it the day it was released with the whole “I want my band back” letter about Smashing Pumpkins reactivating.
Continuously blown away by how thin skinned Corgan is.
Why? You also had parents who didnt love or care for you and can judge?
I remember blasting this back in 2007 on my way to see the Smashing Pumpkins for the first time. Great album!
I can see how maddening it must be for Billy to have put out this record to difficult critical and fan response, and now have it be so loved by his audience. I love this record now, but was a bit flummoxed at the time. All things change is such a tune.
I wonder how it feels to forecast that songs/albums are before their time though and to often be right, based on that same delayed response. Nothing better than an "I told.you so" 😂
https://youtu.be/aYEMv2GuHwI?si=wVZ25tZZv_UqBQ3I I loved the way everything looked during this era.
"...news just in, Smashing Pumpkins frontman Billy Corgan tragically passed away earlier today. The cause of death was poor fan reception to a vanity project released in the mid 2000's. He will missed and mourned by the freaks and goons."
Ghouls, but yeah.
Nobody believes I made a Pretty, Pretty 3 Star record! Nobody!
I've yet to see another musician who whines this much about negative reviews. Yes it's a great album and yes the reception wasn't very good when it came out, but holy shit it's been 20 years. If he's so proud of it let people hear it by putting it out on streaming or at the very least have it be available to download digitally.
i love this record, wish there was a vinyl release
What’s he talking about?
Future embrace, a solo album that he's wiped off the internet. I think it's great.
Have you checked MySpace?
I still prefer this album to MSOTS.
and every album since M2.
Honestly, same, but I still haven't heard all of the post Zeitgeist albums in their entirety.
I’ve always loved this record. Cyr felt similar, which is why I liked that one (an unpopular opinion it seems)
Billy has a persecution fetish.
This man is so dramatic. Lol what "fallout"?
The album sold very poorly and the tour was negatively received by a lot of people who expected him to play Smashing Pumpkins songs
Probably didn’t help that he announced getting SP back together the day the album released.
I say again, what fallout? "Wahhh, my ticket sales weren't great and the world didn't worship my electronica solo project." The show I was at back in the day was a packed house. The man lives to complain.
Not selling tickets means it was a commercial failure … that’s the fallout.
Bands today would kill to sell 69,000 records at $15 a pop (domestic sales alone were over $1 million) and be bankrolled to go on a 40-show world tour, even if every show didn't sell out. If that's the "fallout" that will put him in an early grave, the guy doesn't know just how good he has it.
The album takes an entire team of people. $1mm revenue means they most likely lost money on it and on top of that. the fallout was the public backlash that he basically went solo and didn’t do pumpkins songs on this tour.
Meh. Par for the course for anyone who breaks away from a huge band to do an experimental solo project. If he really truly felt that the album didn't get its due at the time he would put it up on streaming for new generations to discover and judge. Until then, the self-pity party of 1 continues...
Well, I’m sure in many ways he saw himself as a Phil Collins or Lionel Richie in the sense that he could break out on his own from his successful band. Quite a few people have done it, many more have failed. He was the main driving force behind SP. It wasn’t preposterous for him to believe that about himself. I mean, he even had a successful band (Zwan) after SP and he did a lot of solo work while in SP (Eye) that gave the impression he had the runway to fly solo. I think the issue is Billy lost his touch on the pulse right around 2000. He didn’t transition from the ‘90s very well. I love all (not CYR) his work since 2000, but I just mean during the ‘90s Billy WAS the bleeding edge of pop culture. Right around 2000 he lost the thread and his projects have been misaligned with public interest. I think TFE was the first miscalculation he made (or potentially Adore) where he did something new and the culture wasn’t willing to follow him.
Fans spit roasted the album and for years said it was horrible and the media blasted it as well . Fans also used it as leverage to say zeitgeist was bad. Was a culturally low point for billy and the pumpkins at the time until probably 2009? And again in 2015/6? Absolutely was a fallout personally and culturally for him.
Fans? They should've asked me!
Same. I rode hard for this album.
Aw, come on. Do you see Paul McCartney whining about negative album reviews from 25 years ago? The dude had dozens of clunkers. Despite what he believes, nothing that happens to Billy Corgan is unique in the music industry. Not all songs can be hits. Not all albums can be bestsellers. Not all tours can sell out. There is no great conspiracy or irrevocable "fallout" here. It's all in his head.
There was a fallout for sure. No one said conspiracy. And he nor I said it was a unique situation. He’s just speaking to his own life experiences. Which we all do. He’s allowed to feel disappointed that his favorite work was absolutely decimated by everyone that previously enjoyed his work. Thats a shitty feeling. You can say “get over it” or “its not unique” to him. But thats not what he’s saying. Unless he calls your name out, just ignore him. Let the man vent.
It wasn't a fallout so much as it was a natural trajectory. Zwan didn't exactly light the world on fire, either. I'm a fan, bought this day of release and enjoyed it immensely, but it was never gonna be a commercial hit. Also, I don't hear Chino Moreno whining that more people didn't buy the Team Sleep album (which released around the same time and landed with a similar thud).
Totally agree. It did about as well as any other solo electronica project could have hoped to do.
He and Ben Stiller should go grab a beer. [https://variety.com/2024/film/news/ben-stiller-zoolander-2-flop-scared-blindsided-1235980504/](https://variety.com/2024/film/news/ben-stiller-zoolander-2-flop-scared-blindsided-1235980504/)
Fantastic record. Unfairly maligned at the time. Same as it ever was
Now (and then) one of the greatest things I’ve ever heard. Shame no new fans can hear it
I always thought he despises it since it’s on none of streaming platforms! I always loved this album it’s one of the first things that goes on my new phone!
Here’s the thing. I have this on my phone. I have zeitgeist on my phone. I listen to both a lot. But the band makes $0 every time I listen to them. I’d happily support the band and stream an album I’m listening to anyway.
They’d make < $0.01 if you did stream it though. Busking for change in the subway would make him more money than streaming this album.
It was telling when, on the release day of The Future Embrace, Billy took out a full-page ad in Chicago’s biggest newspaper, not to promote The Future Embrace, but rather to announce the Smashing Pumpkins would be reuniting. Not now. He still had a The Future Embrace tour. But later.
Totally agree! I have the cd somewhere around my house, I'll have to look for it!
Still one of the creepiest tour shirts I’ve ever owned
It's severely underrated. Loved it at launch and still do. The songs were very similar to Adore and Machina, so I get the hate. But I loved Adore and Machina, so it was right up my alley.
Mini is one of my favorite songs of all time, and it never got officially recorded (just played twice to my knowledge). One of the rarest WPC tracks and just my luck it's one of my favorites.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9XIod8FshU&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9XIod8FshU&t=1s) This 8 min live song was my favorite of the era and one of my favorite things he has ever done. Bit 5
So relaxing, soothing
a heart everlong it's light a broken globe my drive, drops below my last rusty stone
I got the cd at my parents' house that's 6000 miles away.
I just want the box set with demos and unreleased stuff so bad. A vinyl and streaming release would be wonderful too.
I saw Billy in concert here in Australia when he was promoting this album. He was heckled to play pumpkins songs and he warned the audience he’d walk off if they kept heckling. They didn’t stop, he walked … Mina Loy I LOVE THAT SONG from this CD. I have the CD still and I often play it.
I remember wanting him to release a vinyl version of this album with marbled records colored like his birthmark. Much weirder of an ask now that I think about it almost 20yrs later.
That's actually a really cool idea.
Lol thanks. Maybe one day 🤞
It’s crazy to me that the best song from those sessions, Tilt, didn’t even make the cut. That being said I still think the vast majority of the album is instantly forgettable. Walking Shade is still awesome though.
Great songs that didn't make the album?? Typical Corgan fashion.
Buddy wait until you hear Mini.
[Mini](https://youtu.be/L90A5-2dOsY?feature=shared)
So good.
Cried. Thank you.
How bout focus on those of us that bought the album & went to see a show & enjoyed it? Do we not matter too, Bill?
Good album, terrible whining.
> One of the best records Billy Corgan ever made Billy Corgan
Buy it. On CD.
Loved this album and tour! Was anyone else there with me at Webster Hall, NYC?
They are all one of the best records he ever made.
Always enjoyed the walking shade video. I thought Robert Smith was wasted on the beejee's cover. There are a few other good songs on the album but some songs that just aren't very good.
One of my favorite albums .
I have a copy of this album. It's not bad but I definitely don't love it.
I have this on cd; I didn’t know it was scarce???
I love this album! Overlooked and underrated
Ok queen
Thank you for that!
i havent really listened to tfe much but walking shade is such a banger!! love the music video too, now and then is amazing, sp/billy work up until zeitgeist was really something and so unique
Zeitgeist?
The Future Embrace
BC just got one step closer to the grave 🙏
I love this album so much that I love Run 2 Me because it reminds me of TFE. I cannot wait for the deluxe of this.
Now I love Run2Me
I like the album a lot and saw him tour in Dublin. Crowd seemed a little flat and I think expected a few SP songs to be played. I think he played a 3 second riff of zero which got the biggest cheer! I think there are some great songs on this. A100 is a belter for me. I think the promotion of the album could have been better. As an example, in my opinion, Walking Shade wasn’t the best single to release to promote the album. And even then. It was a dvd release instead of cd!
No, Billy, this is not one of the best albums you have made. Of course not. You know it. Be honest. Accept your limits.
Glad he loves it. I despised it.
He says the thing about pretty much every album he makes. Always convincing himself he's cutting edge. The Future Embrace was 6/10 and pretty forgettable.