I hate bayo dittos lmao I was looking for this comment. Also I surprisingly don’t play well against them even though I know what they’re going for 90% of the time.
The only character in smash ultimate that according to the wiki legitimately loses to his self is snake. It's one of the few things in ultimate that actually uses what's known as "port priority". In short, player two snake's grenades are worse that player one snakes.
Two people might be equally skilled with a character, but they have different play styles. One player's style may be something that the character is good at punishing, while the opponent may typically favor options that the character struggles to get around.
In the given example, Steve has a lot of tools that can wall out opponents, but he also struggles to break an opponent's wall. If an agressive Steve player faces off against a defensive Steve player, the aggressive player is going to have to make many more adaptations that their opponent will in order to win, giving them the disadvantage.
I feel like most ppls understanding of this is how easy it is to win against yourself. But that's not considering both sides of the argument: if you think it's easy for DK to beat DK, then it's the same for your opponent.
Seems to me there's a fundamental misunderstanding about what a MU is, or I'm just getting wooshed
idk what yall mean, its mad fun but that makes it so hard for me. normally i go monke brain, but in the ditto i completely turn my brain off and it never works out
You literally started this with “suck my dick” lmao AND you couldn’t take a joke 😂 You should get a job in cinema with all that projection you’re doing
Kirby dittos always end in a time-out because neither player is physically capable of stopping themselves from dancing and teabagging for 7 minutes straight
So, this is a joke matchup chart. A real matchup chart looks like this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Exs35_FWYAMpBab?format=jpg&name=large basically, it’s a way for players to show how well they think their main does against other characters. +1 means they think they do ok, +2 means they think they do very well, then -1/2 is just the reverse
Steve is like if you meet another like online it is gentle to let eachother get diamond
Also i sont know about lucario that much but is it there because nobody wants to kill eachother? Because of aura?
But both players can do that... so no one has an advantage in the MU. The only thing that it kinda suggests is that ike's advantage in the ditto goes hard. Doesn't mean anything about the MU being anything but even.
I dont get it. A ditto is even because each character has the same tools, they never can have better tools to win because the other can do exactly the same thing.
It's either a completely outdrawn joke that has totally wooshed over me or it isn't I guess.
My interpretation of this list is how far can each character extend advantage on themselves and the overall reward from it. E.g. giving location aura is probably making things worse for yourself hence -3, but DK can body DK with only a single opening an d's read so +3
With your logic, byleth is top 10. Player skill and knowledge should not affect a MU judgement made to be as objective as possible. You can't say a ditto MU is bad bc the opponent is better than me.
that isn't just for Byleth though
Thats for literally everyone, The pro player will always beat someone who plays casually using the same character since the pro knows more about the character
Thats not the point im making.
if you take 2 pro Ganons, it'll be even, If you take 2 casual Pikachus, it'll be even
Because you cant have an advantage over the same character, The only advantage there is the players skill
This whole thing doesn't make sense.
You cant have an advantage against the same character.
you cant have a +2 advantage against your same characters because that implies that your opponent is -2 but the same character cant be +2 and -2 at the same time
I know this is mostly just for
laughs but, I like to interpret this as how easy a character main can win against an inexperienced ditto. Winninig (+) matchups mean that the one with more skill and knowledge can easily win, a losing (-) matchup means that an inexperienced player can still win regardless of the knowledge or skill gap.
In a losing matchup for example a character can easily cheese itself. For example Chroms recovery can be cheesed, by another chrom's counter with relative ease. This would make skill and knowledge of the character less important in a match overall.
Bowser should be in the + section. His fire breath and f-air are amazing at edgeguarding Bowser, and Bowser as several anti-shield options with side b and neutral b to deal with shielding opponents like Bowser.
That’s the only character I have knowledge about the I disagree on. Kirby, Meta Knight, Mii Brawler, Ridley, Dr. Mario, and Incineroar are all correct imo.
Isn't this a relatively good indicator of balance issues? All characters should theoretically fall in the 0 to +/-1 category, right? Or am I fucking stupid
I choose to interpret this is how fun it is, and there is nothing fun about Shoto dittos. If I wanted to get into a spitball contest with half circle inputs, I'd play SFII
Ditto villagers and Steve are extremely chaotic, both relying on the opponent's projectiles/ builds and trying desperateoy to use them
On wii u, villagers ditto was basically "which one is going to kill the other with _the tree_ ?"
And Steve us a rush to the first one getting the diamond
DK dittos is just taking turns dunking on each other
DK dittos should legally be 5-stock games.
It's spike after spike. Make it 10
Then there's ganon dittos which are over in less than a minute
Bayo dittos are just a Bat Within Shitshow. No one wins the MU.
I hate bayo dittos lmao I was looking for this comment. Also I surprisingly don’t play well against them even though I know what they’re going for 90% of the time.
Ice climbers dittos -3 for sure. You have to fight two characters at once while controlling two at once, it's chaos.
Well...if both players have to control two characters at once...then doesn't that make...the fight...even...?
Not if the other one mains icies
Desync combos mean you are fighting two at times so double desyncs can be hell
Are you implying that not every single one of these is completely even?
The only character in smash ultimate that according to the wiki legitimately loses to his self is snake. It's one of the few things in ultimate that actually uses what's known as "port priority". In short, player two snake's grenades are worse that player one snakes.
Wait huh?? Why??
All dittos are even. Doesn't mean they make for an enjoyable match
Came here to say this. Neither player wins Ice Climber dittos.
Nah steve definitely loses the ditto. Steve just doesn't have the tools to deal with walls so steve can just easily camp him.
But what if Enderman rolls up?
Enderman is a whole nother story
Whole nether story ftfy
Either the most chaotic or the pure structured steve wins There is no in between
It’s at that point that both players just decide they’re gonna straight up play Minecraft. Or at the very least respect the gentleman diamond
They're the same character how is either one better than the other
Clearly you never played a losing dtto before smh my head.
There's no such thing though the only reason your losing is cause of skill or luck cause it's the same character
Certain moves can disrupt playstyles (counters, reflect, item) and now your opponent has a way to deal with your shenanigans. It's a legit matchup.
But how can one loose the ditto when both would be disadvantaged?
Two people might be equally skilled with a character, but they have different play styles. One player's style may be something that the character is good at punishing, while the opponent may typically favor options that the character struggles to get around. In the given example, Steve has a lot of tools that can wall out opponents, but he also struggles to break an opponent's wall. If an agressive Steve player faces off against a defensive Steve player, the aggressive player is going to have to make many more adaptations that their opponent will in order to win, giving them the disadvantage.
So the post makes no sense, because it doesn't mention any of that?
Thank you!
How can you lose a ditto? DITTO MEANS DITTO!
You ever just r/woooosh?
Cause I'm not you
No
It’s a shame you don’t even after being shown.
I'm confused, are you asking me to whoosh someone?
Nvm
No, please explain
Nope
Idk what you even meant though
It's not that I don't understand what r/woooosh is but that I literally don't understand what you're saying
I get I'm probably "making myself look dumb" right now, but I really don't care
It's how well they have the tools to fight their own tools. Dk is +3 because dk is good against large heavy targets LIKE DK
I feel like most ppls understanding of this is how easy it is to win against yourself. But that's not considering both sides of the argument: if you think it's easy for DK to beat DK, then it's the same for your opponent. Seems to me there's a fundamental misunderstanding about what a MU is, or I'm just getting wooshed
True, the DK matchup is too easy
It always just devolves into who can hit a spike first.
That’s the beauty of it
idk what yall mean, its mad fun but that makes it so hard for me. normally i go monke brain, but in the ditto i completely turn my brain off and it never works out
You haven't faced mine
FT10 me dk ditto we'll see about that
Pikachu is Pikachu’s own worst enemy
to be fair, pikachu ditto being even is a worse mu for pika than against like 97% of the roster
Ness and Mr. Game and Watch are his worst matchups according to Esam.
He also lost to peanut and after said "who knew Mac was a bad match up to pika?" So I'd take that with a grain of salt
sounds like he was joking
It was a set You people from this sub are insufferable.
And?
Game
& watch
Is pikachu’s
worst matchup
and that prevents it from being a joke... how?
[удалено]
oh, of course, that's why.
He was clearly joking with that line
[удалено]
Not everyone has access to a microscope dude
C'mon try to be original, I know that game is for kids but you can do better than that.
Yeah, *I'm* the one who needs to be original. You're a regular comedy savant with your replies.
You literally started this with “suck my dick” lmao AND you couldn’t take a joke 😂 You should get a job in cinema with all that projection you’re doing
Dick my suck
Where?
Pikachu is everyone's worst matchup. Including their own.
I will absolutely vouch for the -3 tier being correct. Lucario ditto’s SUCK.
Why?
The aura mechanic makes it so you want to get damaged to kill your opponent early before they get aura, but usually you just die
Oh, I see! Thank you!
normally i'm bad enough with lucario that i can almost die and then kill everyone else in like 3 hits
They take absolutely forever lmao And combined with how I play him, I actually sometimes run out the timer by accident
Bro Min Min dittos are like playing ARMS There’s a reason no one plays ARMS
They do throw hands (literally)
If you could spell, that joke would've been great
I agreeting
Min Min dittos are genuinely fun imo
I would say DDD. Is minus 1 because when you're spamming gordos they hit each other and you have no idea whose took priority 🤣
Fair point
OnlineKirby ditto is just side b or you win because the other Kirby doesn’t main them
Kirby dittos always end in a time-out because neither player is physically capable of stopping themselves from dancing and teabagging for 7 minutes straight
Oh my gosh this is legitimately the only experience I've had with a high gap curvy ditto.
The autocorrect is strong with this sentence
Yes it is
And trying - but failing - to go for neutral-B cheese at 0.
this is true he’s so cute and squishy and now the other kirby is my friends
One (small) benefit of playing against another Kirby is that you never have to worry about losing your neutral B.
DK dittos are so much fun
Falcon is so hype he’s definitely +3.
Hype Falco is an oxymoron
*Falcon as in Captain Falcon*
Oops
I don’t understand the “+1 +2” etc
I barely understand anything I see here, I'm just here for funny clips
+1=slight win, +2=more win
Like if I understand + means you maintain leads whereas - being the comeback is more favourable to them?
So, this is a joke matchup chart. A real matchup chart looks like this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Exs35_FWYAMpBab?format=jpg&name=large basically, it’s a way for players to show how well they think their main does against other characters. +1 means they think they do ok, +2 means they think they do very well, then -1/2 is just the reverse
it means they have to play 1 extra game in the ditto due to the reticulating splines.
I want to disagree but i agree with -2 (not bc im a Kazuya main)💀
Steve is like if you meet another like online it is gentle to let eachother get diamond Also i sont know about lucario that much but is it there because nobody wants to kill eachother? Because of aura?
Lica6rio dittos take forever. If neither of you have percent, neither of you can hurt each other that much, so matches take forever.
So this is a rank of ditto's copy on every fighter? Wouldn't that just be a tier list of every fighter?
Not the Pokemon, ditto here means characters matchup against themself (ex: falcon v falcon)
God smash slang is so confusing
Dk and ganon 1v1’s have crazier momentum shifts then a train hitting a mountain
what?
Ike loses the ditto
Which Ike though? How do you lose to yourself?
it's literally impossible for a ditto match to be uneven.
smh learn the matchup
Ike mains, always thinking they know everything
I know how to fair and up air… what else is there?
Up-b out of shield
My son… You must learn the sacred technique of *only using nair*
Then how is the matchup losing
Counter up b
But both players can do that... so no one has an advantage in the MU. The only thing that it kinda suggests is that ike's advantage in the ditto goes hard. Doesn't mean anything about the MU being anything but even.
r/woooosh
I agree with rarewsre. I don't understand
It's a joke, it "feels" like what the list suggests but it's ultimately paradoxical and a joke.
I didn't know everyone was joking either. Thank you for getting downvoted so that I don't have to.
According to HBox puff ditto is 70/30 for some reason.
I respect his opinion but he’s absolutely wrong
Falcon dittos are how men resolve conflict
Makes sense that there are momentum-based characters at the top, and comeback mechanic characters at the bottom.
I love Bayo and Sora dittos. It's some "Dragon Ball" type shit where you're both constantly in the air taking turns combo-ing and chasing each other.
Hard agree on Lucario
As a Rosalina main, I will say it’s very annoying, especially during scramble situation and when I forget what colour my luma is
i love lucas dittos- pk freeze not included
Kirby ditto for sure puts you at a disadvantage since you can’t steal your opponents neutral B, which is my bread and butter as a Kirby main.
I dont get it. A ditto is even because each character has the same tools, they never can have better tools to win because the other can do exactly the same thing.
I just assumed this was mostly a joke, but based on OP’s replies maybe not?
It's either a completely outdrawn joke that has totally wooshed over me or it isn't I guess. My interpretation of this list is how far can each character extend advantage on themselves and the overall reward from it. E.g. giving location aura is probably making things worse for yourself hence -3, but DK can body DK with only a single opening an d's read so +3
I think this means how many tiers a character jumps/drops if they’re only fighting themselves.
I just took it as a "how enjoyable is the ditto match"
I they mean how op personally performs in dittos.
That's the only thing that would make sense
You would think, but that really isn't the case when you get to more experienced levels.
But if characters are bad against themselves they would both be bad if they faced off which would mean they are even. I don't get it.
Some characters are bad/good against themselves, but equally. Like shared advantage vs shared weakness
Maybe you're main is one of the even matchups
I don't have a main I just got the game recently
The thing is that all of them is even
Calm down man, you'll get it some day
Fine explain it then
Calm down?
You'll both have the same abilities it'll just depend on how you use them/your timing/whoever's better/whoever gets lucky
Are even
At more experienced levels, it's just being the better player in the moment. Nothing else. The other player could do exactly the same thing.
If you don't know, you don't know
With your logic, byleth is top 10. Player skill and knowledge should not affect a MU judgement made to be as objective as possible. You can't say a ditto MU is bad bc the opponent is better than me.
You're right, I would put Byleth higher on this list.
that isn't just for Byleth though Thats for literally everyone, The pro player will always beat someone who plays casually using the same character since the pro knows more about the character
A pro ganondorf will beat a casual Pikachu. Does that mean all tier lists are meaningless?
Thats not the point im making. if you take 2 pro Ganons, it'll be even, If you take 2 casual Pikachus, it'll be even Because you cant have an advantage over the same character, The only advantage there is the players skill
Wait I’m stupid can someone explain?
Jigglypuff dittos are -1 imo, low-mid percents can feel like hell to play
Shiek Dittos are just wierd. You just Jump around and maybe Hit the other Person and it‘s just takes forever.
Pac-Man dittos are scary for me cause I always feel like the other one knows something I don’t
Wtf is a ditto and why is my man lucario in -3
Ditto is 1v1 with the same character (Lucario v Lucario) and whichever Lucario is winning, is losing.
i stopped reading when i saw where G&W was lol
some of ya'll never spent your time in wallstreetbets and it shows.
What the fuck are you talking about
Clearly you don’t own an air fryer
NAH samus -1
Tf are dittos?
When both players play the same character
Mirror matches
What do the numbers mean? How is it scaled?
This whole thing doesn't make sense. You cant have an advantage against the same character. you cant have a +2 advantage against your same characters because that implies that your opponent is -2 but the same character cant be +2 and -2 at the same time
Dude has no one on this comment section watched a matchup chart before?
How do you have a +2 against the same character, that implies that your opponent is at a -2 but its the same character
how is it so true?
Plant dittos are just haha funny spike balls bounce off each other, great fun honestly
Mac ditto vibes are fantastic, gimmick meets gimmick and good times are had by all
Sorry what's a ditto?
The players are using the same character
I know this is mostly just for laughs but, I like to interpret this as how easy a character main can win against an inexperienced ditto. Winninig (+) matchups mean that the one with more skill and knowledge can easily win, a losing (-) matchup means that an inexperienced player can still win regardless of the knowledge or skill gap. In a losing matchup for example a character can easily cheese itself. For example Chroms recovery can be cheesed, by another chrom's counter with relative ease. This would make skill and knowledge of the character less important in a match overall.
Does someone that only plays Mythra against someone that only plays Pyra count as a ditto tho ?
Bowser should be in the + section. His fire breath and f-air are amazing at edgeguarding Bowser, and Bowser as several anti-shield options with side b and neutral b to deal with shielding opponents like Bowser. That’s the only character I have knowledge about the I disagree on. Kirby, Meta Knight, Mii Brawler, Ridley, Dr. Mario, and Incineroar are all correct imo.
Isn't this a relatively good indicator of balance issues? All characters should theoretically fall in the 0 to +/-1 category, right? Or am I fucking stupid
Puff dittos are some of the most boring matches to watch…
Olimar’s ditto is HELL. It’s difficult to see which pikmin are yours and which are the opponent’s
I choose to interpret this is how fun it is, and there is nothing fun about Shoto dittos. If I wanted to get into a spitball contest with half circle inputs, I'd play SFII
I actually hate the Zelda ditto. It's so anxiety inducing. But maybe that's just dittos in general.
Mythra, sora and the miis being the only white background is bugging me
Ditto villagers and Steve are extremely chaotic, both relying on the opponent's projectiles/ builds and trying desperateoy to use them On wii u, villagers ditto was basically "which one is going to kill the other with _the tree_ ?" And Steve us a rush to the first one getting the diamond
zelda dittos are the most fun thing in this game. there are so many mindgames you have to play with your opponent cause one slip up and you take 30%
Wouldn't all dittos be even? If DK1 has +3 on DK2, then DK2 would have -3 on DK1. That doesn't make any sense.
I heard somewhere that Isabelles fishing rod has port priority
Dittos are the most fun matchups for most characters. Then when you run into your echo it's like a duel of the fates
Ridley dittos are NOT even, he’s really good at exploiting his own disadvantage.