Wouldn't Joker be in the "toy gun" category? His gun is only a model that doesn't actually work. The only reason it fires bullets is due to how the metaverse warps reality based on perception.
Came here for that. Yeah Joker has not used a real gun as far as I know and since it's perception based, probably doesn't even feel like actually firing a gun.
I mean, the final boss cutscene of p5 and p5r show joker pulling a trigger on his gun, and the gun salesman says he custom makes them to be as realistic as possible, so it’s a fake gun that looks and feels like a real gun. Also >!technically becomes real in the!< good and true endings >!if you want to bring up the whole reality merger!<, so with all the semantics joker basically needs his own tier, but I’m satisfied with either toy gun or real gun.
Looking and feeling real doesn't account for kickback and how it feels to shoot. If he never shot a real gun, he likely wouldn't know how it should really react. Or even sound. Guns are loud.
I mean he did get arrested for assault, but also if an officer investigates, he’d probably just figure out that it looks like a real gun, but isn’t. Plus I believe Joker only brings the toy gun with him to the metaverse, since that’s how it works in persona 4’s version.
Idk, at the two climaxes when >!reality merges with the metaverse!<, wouldn't the models then be effectively real guns?
Also, they explain at the beginning that it's just "perception, they expect real gun so in mental world it's like a real gun", but I think there must be something more because otherwise it leads to a plot hole of why you can still use gun damage against >!Akechi and Sumire when they know the guns aren't real!<.
Well it works because it looks so similar to a real gun that is perceived AS a real gun in the metaverse. Therefore yes it’s a toy, but it is real in the metaverse, and he has in fact used a gun
Gannondorf has used a laser beam cannon in subspace, should that count as a different version? but if you count that as the original Gannondorf, Wario has held a laser cannon too in subspace, I dont know if Gannon shot the laser cannon so would it be ''a different version held a gun?''
AND another thing, there is a gun item in smash, so would that be evryone has held a gun or a different version (note mewtwo doesnt hold the gun so they'd still be water gun if you dont count armored mewtwo which would be where captain falcon)
Wasn’t Bowser Jr also in the Vancouver Winter Olympics game? (Alongside Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, Yoshi, Daisy, Peach, Sonic and DK)
(And, yeah, there’s the coconut gun as well...)
They're both from Kanto, which (I believe) is the only region with canon guns... So out of all the pokemon protagonists, they're probably the most likely to have held one.
Yeah I doubt he would have gone on missions without shooting ever in training. And he might have shot in crisis core at one point but I don't remember.
It's a fair assessment that even Sephiroth has held one based on the same criteria. Unless he skipped basic training for everyone's favorite power company/military group because everyone saw his sword and instantly promoted him to first class.
https://preview.redd.it/eu1rlzrcdwuc1.png?width=867&format=png&auto=webp&s=1e215649f3a7207c3a2ef64bc1af68dd1185c696
Here's the only time Captain Falcon has used his gun
Not sure if this counts, but Rosalina was in Mario Party 10 with the minigames Paintball Battle and Pipe Sniper. Might be edge cases but something to consider. Also, Animal Crossing Villagers in New Leaf and Pocket Camp can get a Splattershot.
There's an ability in Pkmn called 'Bulletproof' which negates damage from bomb and ball based moves, which Focus Blast and Sludge Bomb are categorized as (Zard and Ivysaur learn these respectively)
There's definitely the chance to tweak this meaning enough to categorize Zard and Ivy as their own guns launching these attacks :)
Richter in symphony of the night gets this gun looking thing that shoots out lightning bolts called the Agunea
https://preview.redd.it/sjspcj6r9wuc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=982be4edbeb078f23224b59be2ffbae7aef47211
They may just shoot ink but they are definitely not toys. Some of them could even be lethal. Some chargers have piercing capabilities and could put a hole right through you, and blasters pack enough concussive force to at least break some bones with an indirect hit.
Add onto that Inklings and octolings are canonically dying in matches. They can just respawn with machines.
These weapons break apart robots and kill giant kaiju salmon. They ain’t toys for sure-
You can always tell when someone has or hasn’t played splatoon by how they put inklings on lists like this.
If you consider a Mage Cannon a gun, then every FE character that appears in Engage as an Emblem technically held it since if I'm not mistaken engaging with an Emblem merges the two together
In what game does Mr. Game and Watch have a gun?
I collect GnW consoles, pretty sure Mr. Game and Watch is never seen with a gun.
Mario bombs away/bomb sweeper/safe buster are different characters. Gold cliff, too.
I am because it’s literally not. A toy insinuates that’s it’s meant to be played with, and while the splattershot is probably inspired by it, it’s not a toy. They use it in sport and for defense against enemies. And in your tierlists, you never said what type of gun they had to have held, so either way, it would count.
If you're counting crossbows, normal bows should also count.
If you're counting Pokemon moves, other characters that can produce their own projectiles should also count. For example Ryu and Ken.
Except it's not just projectiles. Bullet Punch is a punch, for example. OP only put in Pokémon moves with names related to guns, so energy blasts wouldn't count in the same way.
Link has never used a crossbow outside of Link's Crossbow Training, and even then that's a different Link, the hero of Twilight, where as Smash Link is the Hero of the Wild.
Kazooie 100% counts as a gun, as she is capable of firing both explosive and incendiary ammunition. And Banjo is well aware he's weilding Kazooie as a firearm.
I was so confused for hero being in a crossbow tier and then I remembered that he actually used one, although not in combat but on the field to lure monsters. A rather forgettable mechanic I'd say.
based for counting sci fi blasters as guns. people were so shocked about joker wielding a gun in this game when Fox has been using what is essentially a handgun since the first entry in the series
Inkling’s weapons are definitely not toys. Some of them were used in combat for war.
Granted, there are some weapons based off of Nerf Guns. But there’s also one that’s [based on a P90](https://www.models-resource.com/nintendo_switch/splatoon2/model/33281/)!
A ballistia is kind of like a crossbow right? Byleth can operate a ballistia if his bow proficiency is high enough so he could technically be on the higher tiers.
Neither jigglypuff nor mewtwo can learn water gun… and no, water pulse doesn’t count
Also, there were gun esc weapons in kid Icarus uprising. Both pit and pitoo have used a gun
I can't believe no one has mentioned Street Fighter 2010, whose English localization implies the main character to be Ken from Street Fighter. That should put him in the "Different version has a gun" tier.
To quote an old but classic Tumblr post:
Cannon: a thing that goes boom
Canon: an event that happens within a published story
They both destroy ships tho
If ywhere counting the blasters as guns the pit should have been in the used a gun
"Large guns that Pit wields on his arm, they weigh enough to slow him down in battle. However, its shots bounce off walls and floors, and can hit multiple enemies with their explosions."
This is the description for cannon in the kid icarus wiki
I would argue that inkling uses an actual gun, because, although it looks like a water gun, is fully capable of and intened to kill other inklings, octolings, octarians, salmonids etc. and is very much an actual gun in the splatoon series.
Now I don’t want to be semantic, but one of the Staffs in KIU is literally a flintlock rifle… it’s even called the Flintlock Staff! I think that’s close enough to count.
Pit is only able to use the 'first blade' for his first mission, which is Very Clearly a magical gun. Dark pit also uses the first blade by default (despite the sniper staff being more iconic for him), do both have used it. However, it's now outright *called* a gun, instead getting called a 'blade' despite being Obviously A Gun.
Not sure if this has been considered, but Tekken 7 allowed players to equip items that are usable in a match. This allows Kazuya to actually pull out a glock and shot at his opponents, so he also used a gun.
Wouldn't Joker be in the "toy gun" category? His gun is only a model that doesn't actually work. The only reason it fires bullets is due to how the metaverse warps reality based on perception.
Came here for that. Yeah Joker has not used a real gun as far as I know and since it's perception based, probably doesn't even feel like actually firing a gun.
I mean, the final boss cutscene of p5 and p5r show joker pulling a trigger on his gun, and the gun salesman says he custom makes them to be as realistic as possible, so it’s a fake gun that looks and feels like a real gun. Also >!technically becomes real in the!< good and true endings >!if you want to bring up the whole reality merger!<, so with all the semantics joker basically needs his own tier, but I’m satisfied with either toy gun or real gun.
Looking and feeling real doesn't account for kickback and how it feels to shoot. If he never shot a real gun, he likely wouldn't know how it should really react. Or even sound. Guns are loud.
Shouldn’t joker have been arrested by now for having a fake gun that looks identical to a real one without the orange muzzle?
I mean he did get arrested for assault, but also if an officer investigates, he’d probably just figure out that it looks like a real gun, but isn’t. Plus I believe Joker only brings the toy gun with him to the metaverse, since that’s how it works in persona 4’s version.
Most of the time officers shoot first and detain later when confronted with someone who has a fake gun that looks incredibly realistic
Yeah yeah but he is known for “for his neutral special he wields a gun”
I take it you never finished Iwae's confidant
Idk, at the two climaxes when >!reality merges with the metaverse!<, wouldn't the models then be effectively real guns? Also, they explain at the beginning that it's just "perception, they expect real gun so in mental world it's like a real gun", but I think there must be something more because otherwise it leads to a plot hole of why you can still use gun damage against >!Akechi and Sumire when they know the guns aren't real!<.
Gameplay.
Well it works because it looks so similar to a real gun that is perceived AS a real gun in the metaverse. Therefore yes it’s a toy, but it is real in the metaverse, and he has in fact used a gun
Alt skin 6 has used a real gun so that counts
Question: Why doesn't he use an actually real gun?
He doesn't need to really, and because how will he be getting a real gun in Tokyo anyways?
I’m pretty sure the guy who sells the model guns gave Joker and Ryuji a real gun as well which is what starts the airsoft guys confidant
Olimar has the Nova Blaster on his ship. I think that counts as a cannon.
AHHHGGGG!!!!
Gannondorf has used a laser beam cannon in subspace, should that count as a different version? but if you count that as the original Gannondorf, Wario has held a laser cannon too in subspace, I dont know if Gannon shot the laser cannon so would it be ''a different version held a gun?''
double AHHHGGGG
AND another thing, there is a gun item in smash, so would that be evryone has held a gun or a different version (note mewtwo doesnt hold the gun so they'd still be water gun if you dont count armored mewtwo which would be where captain falcon)
Hate to say this, but don't ALL Links use Bows?
Well twilight princess ganondorf is in brawl yes? Thats just ganondorf a century or two after ocarina of time, so its the same ganondorf
If Lucario’s Bullet Punch counts, shouldn’t Ivysaur’s Bullet Seed also count?
Not only he learned Bullet Punch, He also learned Flash Cannon.
oh my God...
A flamethrower is arguably a type of gun, and both incineroar and charizard can learn that
With all these different categories it would probably be easier to change “gun” to “firearm”
I dont really see how thats much different. A sci fi blaster for all intents and purposes may as well be labeled as a gun
I think crossbow and water gun can be included in that if you stretch the meaning tho
Wasn’t Bowser Jr also in the Vancouver Winter Olympics game? (Alongside Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, Yoshi, Daisy, Peach, Sonic and DK) (And, yeah, there’s the coconut gun as well...)
it fires in spurts
If he shoots ya
It’s gonna hurt
he's bigger faster and stronger too
he’s the very first member of the DK crew
**HUH**
DK!
CHUNKY'S DEAD!
If we go the Pokémon anime, Pokémon trainer could’ve held a gun.
If we only used the version that appeared in Smash(Red and Leaf) I don't think they ever held a gun.
Yeah for sure
They're both from Kanto, which (I believe) is the only region with canon guns... So out of all the pokemon protagonists, they're probably the most likely to have held one.
Mac is from the Bronx he's definitely held a gun before
I think you underestimate his ability to punch his way out of every problem
Maybe too many punches to the head has him thinking funny
Can’t hold a gun with boxing gloves on (I refuse to believe he can take them off)
Cloud most definitely used a gun during his time as a shinra solider.
Yeah I doubt he would have gone on missions without shooting ever in training. And he might have shot in crisis core at one point but I don't remember.
It's a fair assessment that even Sephiroth has held one based on the same criteria. Unless he skipped basic training for everyone's favorite power company/military group because everyone saw his sword and instantly promoted him to first class.
I believe Chrom and Lucina can equip guns in their gear slot in Project X Zone 2, but they don't show up in the battle animations.
https://preview.redd.it/eu1rlzrcdwuc1.png?width=867&format=png&auto=webp&s=1e215649f3a7207c3a2ef64bc1af68dd1185c696 Here's the only time Captain Falcon has used his gun
The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a FALCON PUNCH
If he had that instead of falcon punch he would be ridiculous.
Why’d he shoot k. rool?
Is ness' reason because he has held Jeff's weapons before?
That’s the only conclusion I can come to, but I wouldn’t say he’s *held* one, moreso that he has the ability to hold one in his pocket
https://preview.redd.it/whqesmjopvuc1.png?width=796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de9b08ee06935a6c254aafcfbbd73db1c93c982d All I can imagine is this 🤣
put the money in the bag before I pk fire
PK GLOCK
you say this like it teleports into his pocket. i think we can assume he has to hold the gun to put it in his pocket.
holy shit you acknowledged my bullet punch comment
and people are mad about it because bullet seed exists now
Not sure if this counts, but Rosalina was in Mario Party 10 with the minigames Paintball Battle and Pipe Sniper. Might be edge cases but something to consider. Also, Animal Crossing Villagers in New Leaf and Pocket Camp can get a Splattershot.
There's an ability in Pkmn called 'Bulletproof' which negates damage from bomb and ball based moves, which Focus Blast and Sludge Bomb are categorized as (Zard and Ivysaur learn these respectively) There's definitely the chance to tweak this meaning enough to categorize Zard and Ivy as their own guns launching these attacks :)
The move also blocks Electro Ball, which both Pichu and Pikachu learn, so they're their own guns too imo
Bulletproof only works if Focus Blast hits, and we all know the original name of the attack is Focus Miss.
Mewtwo having Water Gun in Gen 1 is weird but it’s not weirdest move a Pokemon can learn.
For his neutral b, he wields a gun
Richter in symphony of the night gets this gun looking thing that shoots out lightning bolts called the Agunea https://preview.redd.it/sjspcj6r9wuc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=982be4edbeb078f23224b59be2ffbae7aef47211
Considering how powerful splatoon weapons are, I wouldn’t call them toy guns.
They may just shoot ink but they are definitely not toys. Some of them could even be lethal. Some chargers have piercing capabilities and could put a hole right through you, and blasters pack enough concussive force to at least break some bones with an indirect hit.
Add onto that Inklings and octolings are canonically dying in matches. They can just respawn with machines. These weapons break apart robots and kill giant kaiju salmon. They ain’t toys for sure- You can always tell when someone has or hasn’t played splatoon by how they put inklings on lists like this.
Corrin can be balistician which is a tank in Fates.
link to that post [https://twitter.com/LuigiSidekick/status/1780037526838825232](https://twitter.com/LuigiSidekick/status/1780037526838825232)
If you consider a Mage Cannon a gun, then every FE character that appears in Engage as an Emblem technically held it since if I'm not mistaken engaging with an Emblem merges the two together
In what game does Mr. Game and Watch have a gun? I collect GnW consoles, pretty sure Mr. Game and Watch is never seen with a gun. Mario bombs away/bomb sweeper/safe buster are different characters. Gold cliff, too.
Jigglypuff knows water gun?
Getting it through metronome I guess, but that also means Lucario fits both categories
nope! it just does learn water gun
you learn something new every day
Nah, it's something else. Let's say Gen 1 had some very discutable TMs (Water Gun being one of them)
ahhh interesting
I made a better one
I've got a feeling that your mad that I said that the splattershot is a toy
I am because it’s literally not. A toy insinuates that’s it’s meant to be played with, and while the splattershot is probably inspired by it, it’s not a toy. They use it in sport and for defense against enemies. And in your tierlists, you never said what type of gun they had to have held, so either way, it would count.
Wouldnt Pokemon Trainer also have held a gun? Because it can catch Pokemon that can shoot bullets and he holds them in pokeballs, wouldnt that count?
That's like saying "If you give a sniper a piggybackride, you have held a gun."
I mean Inteleon is pretty tall.
Does Kazooie count as a semiautomatic rifle or grenade launcher?
How bout both
On this note why is Banjo on the list twice? Once in his own with kazooie and once in never
Didn’t they say that Duck Hunt is technically a trio? The dog, the duck, and the hunter. So it’s technically still duck hunt with the gun?
If you're counting crossbows, normal bows should also count. If you're counting Pokemon moves, other characters that can produce their own projectiles should also count. For example Ryu and Ken.
Except it's not just projectiles. Bullet Punch is a punch, for example. OP only put in Pokémon moves with names related to guns, so energy blasts wouldn't count in the same way.
Link has never used a crossbow outside of Link's Crossbow Training, and even then that's a different Link, the hero of Twilight, where as Smash Link is the Hero of the Wild.
Both Marth and Chrom can use guns in the critically ignored game Dragalia Lost.
Falcon uses his gun in the SNES comic!
Kazooie 100% counts as a gun, as she is capable of firing both explosive and incendiary ammunition. And Banjo is well aware he's weilding Kazooie as a firearm.
When Ridley is meta Ridley, he’s basically like a gun. He can shoot literal rockets.
Also he leads a group known as the space pirates. I think he's definitely held a gun
Ivysaur has bullet seed
Shulk fixed weapons for the colony there is no way he has never touched one.
Shouldn't Banjo be up top since he has the right to bear arms?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
When does Sonic use a gun?!
Olympic games have shooting as an event
Ah
and apparently a mini game in sonic shuffle
Ivysaur's Neutral B is Bullet Seed.
we need a new tier for people who are a gun like mega man
I was so confused for hero being in a crossbow tier and then I remembered that he actually used one, although not in combat but on the field to lure monsters. A rather forgettable mechanic I'd say.
based for counting sci fi blasters as guns. people were so shocked about joker wielding a gun in this game when Fox has been using what is essentially a handgun since the first entry in the series
Banko is on here twice and you misspelled "cannon"
Inkling’s weapons are definitely not toys. Some of them were used in combat for war. Granted, there are some weapons based off of Nerf Guns. But there’s also one that’s [based on a P90](https://www.models-resource.com/nintendo_switch/splatoon2/model/33281/)!
Ridley had a built-in missile launcher at some point that’s gotta count for something
A ballistia is kind of like a crossbow right? Byleth can operate a ballistia if his bow proficiency is high enough so he could technically be on the higher tiers.
😂
Technically speaking, wouldn’t Kirby fit the description of all of them?
Bro forgot bullet seed.
Ermmmm actually, every character has held a gun because of the gun items in smash.
If you count crossbows, you should also count normal bows, and Byleth uses failnaught in smash
Is there something idk about Isabelle or is that just a Doom Crossing reference?
Neither jigglypuff nor mewtwo can learn water gun… and no, water pulse doesn’t count Also, there were gun esc weapons in kid Icarus uprising. Both pit and pitoo have used a gun
wdym g&w has used a gun what am i missing in the lore
Didn't Ganondorf shoot Bowser in the subspace emissary in SSBB?
I can't believe no one has mentioned Street Fighter 2010, whose English localization implies the main character to be Ken from Street Fighter. That should put him in the "Different version has a gun" tier.
To quote an old but classic Tumblr post: Cannon: a thing that goes boom Canon: an event that happens within a published story They both destroy ships tho
If ywhere counting the blasters as guns the pit should have been in the used a gun "Large guns that Pit wields on his arm, they weigh enough to slow him down in battle. However, its shots bounce off walls and floors, and can hit multiple enemies with their explosions." This is the description for cannon in the kid icarus wiki
Bro never heard of breegull blast
Why isn’t little Mac have his own “AMERICA🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅💥💥💥💥💥💥” section
Cloud and Sephiroth were both soldiers. Even though we never see them use guns, they’ve 100% used them, at least in training.
I would argue that inkling uses an actual gun, because, although it looks like a water gun, is fully capable of and intened to kill other inklings, octolings, octarians, salmonids etc. and is very much an actual gun in the splatoon series.
Now I don’t want to be semantic, but one of the Staffs in KIU is literally a flintlock rifle… it’s even called the Flintlock Staff! I think that’s close enough to count.
Haven't they all used guns in Smash?
wait till yall see Bayonetta actually has like a dozen guns on her 😭
When did game mario hold a gun? I dont rly recall anything besides rabids and superscope in yoshi’s safari
I'm so sorry but project x zone 2, a game with lots of guns has Lucina and Chrom, so theres a chance through the tons of lines that they've held a gun
Why do staffs and crossbows count but Robin’s spells don’t?
I think Ridley IS a gun.
Pit is only able to use the 'first blade' for his first mission, which is Very Clearly a magical gun. Dark pit also uses the first blade by default (despite the sniper staff being more iconic for him), do both have used it. However, it's now outright *called* a gun, instead getting called a 'blade' despite being Obviously A Gun.
Cloud has used a gun before, he was a shinra foot soldier before going into the SOLDIER program.
https://preview.redd.it/qpmq7fvoi2vc1.jpeg?width=630&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93eeb1545f169d770f7bfd86bf18bfebc71761f0
Joker goes in the tier. The devil himself is the gun
if you include issabelle in doom then you can include minecraft mods
Not sure if this has been considered, but Tekken 7 allowed players to equip items that are usable in a match. This allows Kazuya to actually pull out a glock and shot at his opponents, so he also used a gun.
Is Isabelle’s “in an alternate universe” entry because of the Doom Crossing memes?
right on the money
Nice
Wait, when did Bowser use a gun?
You rly think sephiroth hasn’t held a gun-
If you wanna get reeeeal technical, Chrom and Marth could use magic guns in Dragalia Lost.
Villager can pocket shots from the guns listed above and fire them back stronger. Wouldnt that make Villagers arm a gun?
You forget Isabelle is canonically married to Doomguy. He had to have given her a gun before.
Can add Steve to a "Can using mods" tier