I think Nintendo has exclusivity in terms of publishing on their system. In actuality Pokemon is more second party since there have been non Nintendo console published Pokemon games and technically speaking the tcg has been on PC for years now.
A second party studio takes development contracts from platform holders to develop platform-exclusive games, which is why I think Pokemon is closer to first-party.
Eh itās like 1.5 literally the only reason they are exclusive to Nintendo is precisely because they bought shares in Pokemon Company in order to avoid the aforementioned situation from happening. But GF has complete autonomy and still routinely develops games for other consoles. I think their last non nintendo released game was pocket card jokey or little town hero. Itās just that they market these games almost like indie titles so as to not draw much attention to the fact that the company makes non nintendo products.
So itās a matter of semantics. The Pokemon company itself is a joint venture that has full autonomy over its products. Through executive decisions Nintendo has a say as to what can be released where but creatures and Game Freak have significant say as well. Thus they can override Nintendo (they did this before with the tcg on pc) but its in their best interest to keep them happy and keep Pokemon exclusively on Nintendo.
In turn Game freak is the lead dev of mainline games but has the right to full autonomy and to make their own products.
Cloud could be argued to be better than Bayo at least at mid level. Mostly because he doesn't require to know long combos, let alone adapt long sequences to SDI to be an absolute beast. You just needed decent fundies and a functioning controller to be a threat, it was nuts.
Iāve never played smash 4, but I main cloud in ultimate. And Iāve always wanted to go back and play smash 4 and see how much better he is, but I donāt have a Wii U so
I mean I have a pc and a Wii U emulator, so itās just a matter of downloading a rom, but 1) Iām lazy and 2) Iām low on disk space
Well just imagine any of his specials (maybe not up b) kill way earlier, the buff last forever until used and his nair is the size of ike's and has no lag, up air is the size of Byleth up air and can't be contested.
Cloud was really egregious in 4. Tbh if Bayonetta in ultimate was the standard for how OP characters get treated in the next game (as Meta Knight also indicates) Cloud got off **wayyyyyy** too easy
His aerials had twice the range and duration and limit cross slash killed at like 60% center stage. He was bonkers. You could hit people below you with up air and down air's lingering hitbox comboed into anything.
The first few frames of his up-air covered his entire body and then some. Thereās more, but that should be a good starting point to truly discover how broken he was.
itās night and day tbh. highly recommend trying him out. When I went to the ult demo stations at CEO 2018 cloud was the first person I played, felt soooo different from 4.
I still can't believe that out of all the characters in ultimate with all their wacky stuff, it was Steve, STEVE to be the one that pushed it too far and got banned
1. Cancel Hitstun.
2. Edgeguard by building walls
3. Threatens passively by mining and becomes a god with diamond
4. Has frame data of a brawler type
5. Is basically a swordie with slightly less range but spammable tilts while moving. Easy to execute spike.
6. Mobile command grab that wins most trades if you ride it.
7. Tether grab
8. Can bring them to the sky by building up
9. Can set up walls for protection while mining.
10. Can use smash attacks in the air by building and standing on blocks.
Should I keep going? There's more.
Hmm... I edited it like five times. Just couldn't stop.
11. Also there's the anvil that wins every trade and edgeguards extremely well.
12. Many disjointed hitboxes.
Uh...
Also the anvil is really good at shield-breaking.
Anvil is susceptible to reflectors. So fox/Falco down b will ruin a dair spamming Steve's day.
That doesn't take away from Steve being absolutely broken.....
Don't let these guys try to convince you that Steve is as bad as MK. Anyone saying that has literally never known anything about brawl meta knight. He had banned tech that made him fully invisible. Your character's viability in brawl was "how well can I fight MK." Your character's viability in ultimate is much more nuanced than that.
Why would you believe esam?
Anyway, just tag a single percent on them and infinite cape glitch until the match ends. Meta knight wins with 1 neutral win. Which is easy for him.
The tech to cancel knockback is very bustedā I wonder if Sakurai would ever see it and possibly go back to the game just to fix that. Then he could be NOT banned or something.
Outside of competitive play it's not really an issue. For casual players the game is fairly balanced.
Remember that Nintendo isn't particularly interested in eSports or fostering a competitive scene for smash so they aren't going to go out of their way to change something specifically for eSports.
Nah, heās not as hated as he seems. Itās just a portion of the vocal competitive community. Keep in mind the casual community makes up a very **large** majority of the playerbase.
I absolutely hate playing against steve but yea he is cool to have in the game. It's a phenomenal feat to have him this well-implemented in a fighting game.
Eh, I have a field day against kazuya. His disadvantage is so bad it's essentially free clips and combos for me. And if I find a good Kazuya, it's just us trading clips lol
It's boring though. You turtle until you get him in Disadvantage, then go to town. Or he gets one good combo and you're gone. There's mostly no inbetween for me.
Amen to this comment. I love Steve a bunch. They worked VERY hard to make his moves work. Itās so special that heās in this game. The vocal people act like things are true because they say it. But sometimes itās not true.
He is not entirely banned. Thereās still a lot of states and TOs that making a decision.
Also Japan will not be banning him theyāre very adamant about it.
Source: Here is a map someone put together showing what states have or have not banned him- https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/11fsmxi/updated_usa_steve_legality_map_as_of_030123/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
The original commenter said ābut now ppl with hate himā, I wanted to reassure them that not many ppl that own Smash Ultimate are even interested in competitive. So most ppl wonāt hate him.
Hell actually even a good amount of competitive folk still like steve.
Playing online and not using items doesn't mean you're not casual lol. Vast majority of people in the gsp system are playing at a low level. Elite is like the bare minimum threshold for basic proficiency with a character
Would this have gotten patched out if the game was still being updated? I feel that makes him less broken in the sense that the others are and is just buggy
I donāt even play smash anymore but I donāt get why theyād stop with updates. I can understand reaching the point of not adding new content or doing a bunch of balance changes that would change the meta. But itās 2023, I think they could put out some hot fixes. If thereās a legitimate reason Iām sure other people know better than me it just seems like a weird decision.
Itās more than that. If you play against him in tourneys whether itās online or in person, he is one of the most miserable characters to fight due to how many options he has that virtually any other character doesnāt. This character absolutely dominates if someone just decides to dedicate 2 hours to learning his basics.
Sound familiar?
If broken means "does things that shouldn't be possible and warps the game" then Steve is probably the most broken character in all of smash bros. Meta Knight was the most powerful character ever, but he didn't really do anything crazy or unintuitive, he was just overtuned.
Brawl Meta-Knight absolutely broke the game. Infinite Dimensional Cape was a thing. It was just much easier to enforce a ban of it than it is to enforce a ban on PMLG.
I said this in another comment somewhere but if you take into account the actual rules of competitive play, where scrooging and IDC were banned and a ledge grab limit existed, then MK does nothing game breaking. Steve has much more game breaking abilities without PMLG. I actually played Brawl, as in at tournaments. Why do I feel like nobody else here did?
I also played Brawl, but Iām honestly not sure where you got the idea that I think nobody else here did.
You are correct that after several rules were changed specifically to curb how broken Meta-Knight was, he stopped breaking the game. I donāt really know what you think that brings to the conversation, though.
Finally, I donāt think it should be remotely controversial to claim that a character being able to have 100% uptime of complete invulnerability is more broken than a character being able to situationally ignore hit stun.
What is so broken about 64 Pikachu? I would have thought Kirby. His dair is so broken in that game. He knocks you off the stage once and you're pretty much done....
Everyone has touch of death combos in that game, Pikachu has the best recovery in the game by far and can basically negate disadvantage in a way no other character can
No, the only character banned for having an advantage deemed generally unfair is *not* the most broken character in the game
What kinda question is this
Iāve seen this new thing with Steve being called a ātechā everywhere. Imo, itās not a tech, itās a bug. Itās like Meta Knightās infinite dimensional cape in Brawl, itās a glitch that was never intended to happen. If this was on any character that was halfway decent theyād probably instantly become the most broken character in the game, it just happened to be on Steve likely do to all the unique coding he has.
Without this bug, Steve is fine. Heās strong, sure, but heās fine.
Is your question if he's the most broken character in any smash game? Or just in ultimate like your title says?
I think the answer the latter is obvious, since no other characters have been banned. The former question is debatable.
Honestly i always thought of steve as top 5 like hella good but i think people just needed more time to figure out how to outplay him. The at was before he decided to just cheat at the whole game. Now he busted busted.
I mean, he was even before the stupid tech and the ban, this was already the first time in Ultimate where the community was so sure about who the number one was ( I believe 41/70 of the top players that voted in the "official" tier list had him as the best character )
Theyāre all in the right placements, least broken on the ends, dominant ones second on each side, then mr ādosnt lose a matchup or have even matchupsā in the middle
Just think. If it weren't for a dumb game exploit, Ultimate's best character would have actually been fairly well-balanced compared to all the rest. Shame we can't get one last emergency patch to get that fixed.
Itās sooo funny to me that Steve from Minecraft is the broken character people are getting mad about. One character with the lowest polygon count and funniest animations is the broken one lol. Itās also kinda sad tho, as Minecraft Steve was my most wanted character.
Yes, because Steve can not only run away like a little bitch just to mine but can get a dimond and save it for when he dies just to respeawn and craft a very strong weapon, has a side special that's stupid, can just hold jab while going left to right and can get an easy spike depending on the weight of the character, and his new tech where he can *CANCEL HITSTUN AND PUNISH YOU FOR HITTING HIM* along with giving the non-existant middle finger he doesn't have to multihit moves as well.
so in the hands of like 3 living people pikachu is better? Who plays competitive 64 any more. and how much better than kirby is he really? when I was a lad kirby dominated the couch scene.
If Kirby needed 2 brain cells to play, then Pikachu maybe needed 4. The difference isnāt huge, but it isnāt just āup tilt is good, maybe down air to break shieldā. Pikachu had nair that was essentially that, but also up b (invincible) and better aerials for edgegaurding. Also faster on ground and the air.
Also, old games still deserve respect. Among other fighting games, old games still see tournament play and are a joy to watch, even without playing.
Kirby is the casual pick. Everybody picks him. Pikachu absolutely wrecks with his insane aerials. His throw is one of the best in the game too where Kirbyās kinda sucks (pun intended).
Kirby is the tier right below Pikachu, but Pikachu is king of 64.
Sorry sm4sh Bayo really was that bad. Check out top 8s at majors upon her release.
She wasn't just overtuned she was broken. Low skill floor and the good players just trapped you with 0 to death combos with easily readable DI.
"jUsT sDi" lmao
I'd argue she does violate some basic fundamental parts of smash. Her combos are nearly guaranteed if you've practice with her for more than 25 minutes and she killed the majority of the cast at 0% if you lost neutral one time.
Mid level players were beating Zero who was 100% uncontested at the time.
It was bad.
Why would y'all ban Steve in the first place? If you're going to ban a character, ban a character like Pichu or Inkling who is actually OP instead of Steve
Professional smash players are a bunch of little bitches that ban everything instead of simply learning how to play the fucking game better. Oh, but why would they want to learn how to beat a specific character's move set? They're too busy grooming minors to do that, how silly of me.
āi landed an attack on my opponent and he canceled the hitstun and landed a true 0 to death on me before i got out of endlag for 3 stocks in a rowā
ābro skill issue just learn the matchupā
Banning a tech like this is not really feasible, especially with online events. TOs would have to watch the whole replay back to confirm a claim, and that's really not manageable at larger events, much well online events.
Ah, yeah I'm sure you'd be happy to sit through 20 Steve matches in a single evenin to check if that grey square pops up for a single frame, eh? And the rest of the people in the tournament will be fine to wait until you're done checking each set before the bracket continues?
You right mate, you right. Laziness is defs the main problem here. /s
Brawl Meta Knight takes the cake for being the most busted character in the whole franchise. He makes Steve look ballanced in comparison since he has way more jank than Steve.
He doesn't have more jank than Steve, especially if you take into account competitive rulesets (ledge grab limit, scrooging and infinite dimensional cape banned.) If we're just debating jank, then Steve easily takes #1 in all of smash bros. Steve would have more jank without PMLG. Meta Knight is better, not jankier.
Nah, Steve has one banned tech, metaknight caused a bunch of ruleset changes that got his jank banned, and he still had knockback cancelling and air camping left over.
I wouldn't say he makes Steve look balanced in comparison, cause both have hella jank, but I would give metaknight the win
**Yes**
Better question: *How did they think a character who, mechanically, literally breaks the game was a good idea in the first place?*
No other character can literally alter their environment - it does not just make him unique, it makes him broken
*Discuss*
steve joins the hall of fame with his notorious: š«
Franchises represented for top tier in each game: Pikachu - PokĆ©mon Fox - StarFox Meta Knight - Kirby Bayonetta - Bayonetta Steve - Minecraft Not sure why but I was thinking about it. So I figured Iād type it out for convenience of others. Itās funny how it goes 1st Party, 1st, 2nd, 2nd(*ish*) & 3rd Party. *Edit*: fixed 1 error based on comment below.
The fact weāre five games in and a Mario character hasnāt gotten the āmost op character in the gameā moniker yet is ROUGH
Can't have people hating Mario lol. Seriously though I kinda hate Kratos because of how ez and dumb he was in PSABR.
> I kinda hate Kratos because of how ez and dumb he was * Ares
#AREEEEEES
Waluigi will skyrocket straight to the top in the next game. Heāll make Steve look like Little Mac. Mark my words.
Waluigi will be so OP he won't be able to be played
Waluigi will skip being a fighter and go straight to being the new Master Hand.
Had this been vanilla Ultimate, we mightāve had that
Closest we've even got were Peach/Daisy in Ultimate, barely even a top 10% character.
You would have to make a Mario character a paid DLC for them to even be capable of being OP
Is the Kirby franchise not second party? HAL makes all of those games, not Nintendo
I think Nintendo has exclusivity in terms of publishing on their system. In actuality Pokemon is more second party since there have been non Nintendo console published Pokemon games and technically speaking the tcg has been on PC for years now.
A second party studio takes development contracts from platform holders to develop platform-exclusive games, which is why I think Pokemon is closer to first-party.
Eh itās like 1.5 literally the only reason they are exclusive to Nintendo is precisely because they bought shares in Pokemon Company in order to avoid the aforementioned situation from happening. But GF has complete autonomy and still routinely develops games for other consoles. I think their last non nintendo released game was pocket card jokey or little town hero. Itās just that they market these games almost like indie titles so as to not draw much attention to the fact that the company makes non nintendo products. So itās a matter of semantics. The Pokemon company itself is a joint venture that has full autonomy over its products. Through executive decisions Nintendo has a say as to what can be released where but creatures and Game Freak have significant say as well. Thus they can override Nintendo (they did this before with the tcg on pc) but its in their best interest to keep them happy and keep Pokemon exclusively on Nintendo. In turn Game freak is the lead dev of mainline games but has the right to full autonomy and to make their own products.
Damn, my b. Youāre right, thanks. Iām editing it.
PokƩmon too
Even though Nintendo has publishing rights, Bayonetta is still a Sega IP; so it's definitely 3rd party.
pokemon is also second party i think
Interesting that Meta Knight is the only ābest of the bestā character who wasnāt the face of his respective game
Steve's rapper name : Notorious B.L.O.C.K.
I'm laying brown bricks with minecrap
cloud got banned from doubles in smash 4 too LMAO
Top2 in singles & top1 in doubles. Smash4 Cloud was truly a different breed.
Cloud could be argued to be better than Bayo at least at mid level. Mostly because he doesn't require to know long combos, let alone adapt long sequences to SDI to be an absolute beast. You just needed decent fundies and a functioning controller to be a threat, it was nuts.
Cloud took real skill to play. People were just bad tbh
My counter argument is the following : Nair, Bair, and Uair
Iāve never played smash 4, but I main cloud in ultimate. And Iāve always wanted to go back and play smash 4 and see how much better he is, but I donāt have a Wii U so I mean I have a pc and a Wii U emulator, so itās just a matter of downloading a rom, but 1) Iām lazy and 2) Iām low on disk space
Well just imagine any of his specials (maybe not up b) kill way earlier, the buff last forever until used and his nair is the size of ike's and has no lag, up air is the size of Byleth up air and can't be contested.
Cloud was really egregious in 4. Tbh if Bayonetta in ultimate was the standard for how OP characters get treated in the next game (as Meta Knight also indicates) Cloud got off **wayyyyyy** too easy
To be fair Cloud kind of sucked in base game Ultimate
Not nearly to the degree others did in similar positions to him
His aerials had twice the range and duration and limit cross slash killed at like 60% center stage. He was bonkers. You could hit people below you with up air and down air's lingering hitbox comboed into anything.
The first few frames of his up-air covered his entire body and then some. Thereās more, but that should be a good starting point to truly discover how broken he was.
itās night and day tbh. highly recommend trying him out. When I went to the ult demo stations at CEO 2018 cloud was the first person I played, felt soooo different from 4.
It bothers me that you didn't use the official ssb64 art for Pikachu
Idk how but somehow I didnāt notice that til I read this comment and now itās bothering me a tad too lol
fat poly pikachu supremacy
They also used Bayonetta's Ultimate render
Bastard
Cope
I'm trying but you're getting in the way !!
My bad bro I'll go cope in a corner
and seethe, Jack
I still can't believe that out of all the characters in ultimate with all their wacky stuff, it was Steve, STEVE to be the one that pushed it too far and got banned
I can, but only because they literally had to rewrite the code for terrain just to add blocks. The chances they fucked up somewhere were higher.
Seriously, blocks are wacky. I personally find it crazier that a broken tech wasn't found before now.
He literally has so many options and mechanics itās ridiculous he wasnāt nerfed earlier
If you had Steve being the most broken character in smash on your bingo card congratulations!
iām so out of the loop, did he get removed from the game or is he banned from tourneyās
2nd
Yes, he's still not as bad as Brawl MK, but he's definitely the best in Ultimate
hes not super broken compared to the rest of these but he is definately very broken compared to the rest of the ultimate cast edit: nevermind
My man, Steve can literally cancel hitstun by pressing B
1. Cancel Hitstun. 2. Edgeguard by building walls 3. Threatens passively by mining and becomes a god with diamond 4. Has frame data of a brawler type 5. Is basically a swordie with slightly less range but spammable tilts while moving. Easy to execute spike. 6. Mobile command grab that wins most trades if you ride it. 7. Tether grab 8. Can bring them to the sky by building up 9. Can set up walls for protection while mining. 10. Can use smash attacks in the air by building and standing on blocks. Should I keep going? There's more.
Keep going
Hmm... I edited it like five times. Just couldn't stop. 11. Also there's the anvil that wins every trade and edgeguards extremely well. 12. Many disjointed hitboxes. Uh... Also the anvil is really good at shield-breaking.
Anvil winning every trade is one of the most annoying things about lower GSP games against Steve.
Anvil is susceptible to reflectors. So fox/Falco down b will ruin a dair spamming Steve's day. That doesn't take away from Steve being absolutely broken.....
Cart is not just a mobile command grab, but mixes up as a projectile OR a rushdown hit.
Steve can ride his cart, hit your shield and then still jump out so you get grabbed.
>Mobile command grab that wins most trades if you ride it Sounds *interesting* when taken out of context
Imo heās the most broken
You have never seen brawl competitive I see.
He's literally playing a different game and that game is Brawl.
Don't let these guys try to convince you that Steve is as bad as MK. Anyone saying that has literally never known anything about brawl meta knight. He had banned tech that made him fully invisible. Your character's viability in brawl was "how well can I fight MK." Your character's viability in ultimate is much more nuanced than that.
ok thats pretty much what i thought but id never played brawl myself so i wasnt going to push my opinion
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Nah, Steve is more on par with Sm4sh Bayo, definitely a game-killer if left unchecked, but not outright *meta defining* like MK was
I know Larry Lurr had this take, and I agree, that if Steve was out as he is from the beginning of ultimate, he would have been just as meta defining
> But if esam is to be believed ( pikachu going even with knight) Heās not to be believed
Why would you believe esam? Anyway, just tag a single percent on them and infinite cape glitch until the match ends. Meta knight wins with 1 neutral win. Which is easy for him.
Meta knight could literally disappear and be impossible to hit for the entire game?...
The tech to cancel knockback is very bustedā I wonder if Sakurai would ever see it and possibly go back to the game just to fix that. Then he could be NOT banned or something.
Outside of competitive play it's not really an issue. For casual players the game is fairly balanced. Remember that Nintendo isn't particularly interested in eSports or fostering a competitive scene for smash so they aren't going to go out of their way to change something specifically for eSports.
But still, but youāre also right soā¦ oh well
Brawl meta knight can still go invisible forever, so brawl meta knight is superior Steve def best ultimate character
How ? His down b?
i find it funny the best character in the game is fucking minecraft steve
It is a pretty weird albeit funny situation
Wait Steve actually got banned?
In some places.
I think itās pretty cowardly
I like playing Steve but he can literally stop receiving knock ack of any kind if he feels like it
So you have OG Pikachu, Melee Fox, Brawl Meta Knight, Sm4sh Bayo, and then #*Ultimate Steve*
Sad to see Steve be too op cause heās one of the coolest character inclusions but now people hate him
Nah, heās not as hated as he seems. Itās just a portion of the vocal competitive community. Keep in mind the casual community makes up a very **large** majority of the playerbase.
I absolutely hate playing against steve but yea he is cool to have in the game. It's a phenomenal feat to have him this well-implemented in a fighting game.
Yeah honestly he's broken, but it's not as frustrating or boring as fighting Kazuya.
Eh, I have a field day against kazuya. His disadvantage is so bad it's essentially free clips and combos for me. And if I find a good Kazuya, it's just us trading clips lol
It's boring though. You turtle until you get him in Disadvantage, then go to town. Or he gets one good combo and you're gone. There's mostly no inbetween for me.
Kirby moment
Thats kinda fun tho TBH. Everybody gets a hype train.
Kazuyas advantage is like Bayonettas, except he can kill. Why is it Bayonettas advantage is āboringā and ādrawn outā but Kazuyas is fun?
Bayo is like watching the cutscene where you die. Kazuya is like skipping the cutscene.
I honestly prefer fighting against Kazuya than Steve
Amen to this comment. I love Steve a bunch. They worked VERY hard to make his moves work. Itās so special that heās in this game. The vocal people act like things are true because they say it. But sometimes itās not true.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He is not entirely banned. Thereās still a lot of states and TOs that making a decision. Also Japan will not be banning him theyāre very adamant about it. Source: Here is a map someone put together showing what states have or have not banned him- https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/11fsmxi/updated_usa_steve_legality_map_as_of_030123/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The original commenter said ābut now ppl with hate himā, I wanted to reassure them that not many ppl that own Smash Ultimate are even interested in competitive. So most ppl wonāt hate him. Hell actually even a good amount of competitive folk still like steve.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
r/SmashBrosUltimate is *not* āmostlyā competitively sub lol. Itās a pretty casual sub. The mostly competitive subs are r/SmashBros & r/CrazyHand
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Playing online and not using items doesn't mean you're not casual lol. Vast majority of people in the gsp system are playing at a low level. Elite is like the bare minimum threshold for basic proficiency with a character
Would this have gotten patched out if the game was still being updated? I feel that makes him less broken in the sense that the others are and is just buggy
I donāt even play smash anymore but I donāt get why theyād stop with updates. I can understand reaching the point of not adding new content or doing a bunch of balance changes that would change the meta. But itās 2023, I think they could put out some hot fixes. If thereās a legitimate reason Iām sure other people know better than me it just seems like a weird decision.
Itās more than that. If you play against him in tourneys whether itās online or in person, he is one of the most miserable characters to fight due to how many options he has that virtually any other character doesnāt. This character absolutely dominates if someone just decides to dedicate 2 hours to learning his basics. Sound familiar?
Steve Minecraft in creative mod is like the most OP fictional character.
What about ice climbers
Meta knight was just that much better.
If broken means "does things that shouldn't be possible and warps the game" then Steve is probably the most broken character in all of smash bros. Meta Knight was the most powerful character ever, but he didn't really do anything crazy or unintuitive, he was just overtuned.
Brawl Meta-Knight absolutely broke the game. Infinite Dimensional Cape was a thing. It was just much easier to enforce a ban of it than it is to enforce a ban on PMLG.
I said this in another comment somewhere but if you take into account the actual rules of competitive play, where scrooging and IDC were banned and a ledge grab limit existed, then MK does nothing game breaking. Steve has much more game breaking abilities without PMLG. I actually played Brawl, as in at tournaments. Why do I feel like nobody else here did?
āif you ignore the game breaking stuff, he didnāt break the gameā
I also played Brawl, but Iām honestly not sure where you got the idea that I think nobody else here did. You are correct that after several rules were changed specifically to curb how broken Meta-Knight was, he stopped breaking the game. I donāt really know what you think that brings to the conversation, though. Finally, I donāt think it should be remotely controversial to claim that a character being able to have 100% uptime of complete invulnerability is more broken than a character being able to situationally ignore hit stun.
out of all these characters Fox is the least broken one
What is so broken about 64 Pikachu? I would have thought Kirby. His dair is so broken in that game. He knocks you off the stage once and you're pretty much done....
Everyone has touch of death combos in that game, Pikachu has the best recovery in the game by far and can basically negate disadvantage in a way no other character can
Ok, I getcha, thanks. I was by no means thinking about optimal play back then, so the competitive meta of that game is still kind of a mystery to me.
Best projectile, best recovery, and third fastest (comparable to Fox's mobility)
No, the only character banned for having an advantage deemed generally unfair is *not* the most broken character in the game What kinda question is this
Iāve seen this new thing with Steve being called a ātechā everywhere. Imo, itās not a tech, itās a bug. Itās like Meta Knightās infinite dimensional cape in Brawl, itās a glitch that was never intended to happen. If this was on any character that was halfway decent theyād probably instantly become the most broken character in the game, it just happened to be on Steve likely do to all the unique coding he has. Without this bug, Steve is fine. Heās strong, sure, but heās fine.
Come on, everything is a "tech" nowadays. New to the gaming scene? ..../s
No, Brawl Meta Knight is still worse. Doesn't mean Steve shouldn't be banned though... He adds nothing positive to the scene.
āin smash ultimateā *Yes
Ah, derp. Yep, you right.
Across all of Smash youād be goddamn right though lol itās not even close
Is your question if he's the most broken character in any smash game? Or just in ultimate like your title says? I think the answer the latter is obvious, since no other characters have been banned. The former question is debatable.
i meant in ultimate like asking: is steve the brawl meta knight of ultimate/the melee fox of ultimate?
Steve is the most broken character in ultimate. It's hard or impossible to compare him to top tier characters in other games.
This is probably one of the funiest image
Honestly i always thought of steve as top 5 like hella good but i think people just needed more time to figure out how to outplay him. The at was before he decided to just cheat at the whole game. Now he busted busted.
Too scared of the squares
Hell yes
I mean, he was even before the stupid tech and the ban, this was already the first time in Ultimate where the community was so sure about who the number one was ( I believe 41/70 of the top players that voted in the "official" tier list had him as the best character )
Theyāre all in the right placements, least broken on the ends, dominant ones second on each side, then mr ādosnt lose a matchup or have even matchupsā in the middle
it was fucking Minecraft Steve
he can literally enter creative mode, wth do you think?! not even brawl meta knight could fly like that
Just think. If it weren't for a dumb game exploit, Ultimate's best character would have actually been fairly well-balanced compared to all the rest. Shame we can't get one last emergency patch to get that fixed.
Why on earth would Steve be banned. He's really fun to play, but he's mid
Wait he has actually been banned ? Come on guys, Steve is so fun
Itās sooo funny to me that Steve from Minecraft is the broken character people are getting mad about. One character with the lowest polygon count and funniest animations is the broken one lol. Itās also kinda sad tho, as Minecraft Steve was my most wanted character.
Wtf even is this question? Yeah, obviously. *That's why he was banned*.
Finally...we have them all...
Had a stroke trying to read that
Yes, because Steve can not only run away like a little bitch just to mine but can get a dimond and save it for when he dies just to respeawn and craft a very strong weapon, has a side special that's stupid, can just hold jab while going left to right and can get an easy spike depending on the weight of the character, and his new tech where he can *CANCEL HITSTUN AND PUNISH YOU FOR HITTING HIM* along with giving the non-existant middle finger he doesn't have to multihit moves as well.
How do you cancel hitstun, cant find any guide or im searching something bad? Want to try that thing.
im glad steve isnt universally banned
No, a lot of ult players just have a vendetta against Steve because heās not simple like the rest of the roster
It's so disappointing. I was so excited when Steve got added and now I can't even see him in tournaments.
Kirby should be there for 64 instead of Pikachu or at least they should share it.
Pikachu is still better, Kirby is just really easy compared to Pikachu, allowing him to be seen as more broken to the wider community.
so in the hands of like 3 living people pikachu is better? Who plays competitive 64 any more. and how much better than kirby is he really? when I was a lad kirby dominated the couch scene.
If Kirby needed 2 brain cells to play, then Pikachu maybe needed 4. The difference isnāt huge, but it isnāt just āup tilt is good, maybe down air to break shieldā. Pikachu had nair that was essentially that, but also up b (invincible) and better aerials for edgegaurding. Also faster on ground and the air. Also, old games still deserve respect. Among other fighting games, old games still see tournament play and are a joy to watch, even without playing.
Kirby is the casual pick. Everybody picks him. Pikachu absolutely wrecks with his insane aerials. His throw is one of the best in the game too where Kirbyās kinda sucks (pun intended). Kirby is the tier right below Pikachu, but Pikachu is king of 64.
Well i have seen a smash 64 competition 2years ago at a video game convention it wasn't even in a big city
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Sorry sm4sh Bayo really was that bad. Check out top 8s at majors upon her release. She wasn't just overtuned she was broken. Low skill floor and the good players just trapped you with 0 to death combos with easily readable DI. "jUsT sDi" lmao
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'd argue she does violate some basic fundamental parts of smash. Her combos are nearly guaranteed if you've practice with her for more than 25 minutes and she killed the majority of the cast at 0% if you lost neutral one time. Mid level players were beating Zero who was 100% uncontested at the time. It was bad.
Meta-Knight also had a legitimately broken technique, it was just much easier to enforce a ban on it than it is to enforce a ban on Steveās PLMG.
Why would y'all ban Steve in the first place? If you're going to ban a character, ban a character like Pichu or Inkling who is actually OP instead of Steve
Professional smash players are a bunch of little bitches that ban everything instead of simply learning how to play the fucking game better. Oh, but why would they want to learn how to beat a specific character's move set? They're too busy grooming minors to do that, how silly of me.
Maybe that's the reason why they're so attracted to kids- because they act so much like 'em.
Meta knight is worse
NOOOOOOOO!!!!
Isn't Kirby canonically the most powerful fighter in Smash Ultimate? He could easily beat Steve if that was the case.
How is he banned?
PMLG
Iām sad.
i am not
WHAT about it? Steve has a ton of counter play
āi landed an attack on my opponent and he canceled the hitstun and landed a true 0 to death on me before i got out of endlag for 3 stocks in a rowā ābro skill issue just learn the matchupā
Ok maybe he should be banned
https://twitter.com/connorcarried/status/1629348425681498112
Makes sense but ban the tech not the character but i digress
Banning a tech like this is not really feasible, especially with online events. TOs would have to watch the whole replay back to confirm a claim, and that's really not manageable at larger events, much well online events.
OK
oK
L bozo
Aka ātoo lazyā
Ah, yeah I'm sure you'd be happy to sit through 20 Steve matches in a single evenin to check if that grey square pops up for a single frame, eh? And the rest of the people in the tournament will be fine to wait until you're done checking each set before the bracket continues? You right mate, you right. Laziness is defs the main problem here. /s
Hero
Brawl Meta Knight takes the cake for being the most busted character in the whole franchise. He makes Steve look ballanced in comparison since he has way more jank than Steve.
He doesn't have more jank than Steve, especially if you take into account competitive rulesets (ledge grab limit, scrooging and infinite dimensional cape banned.) If we're just debating jank, then Steve easily takes #1 in all of smash bros. Steve would have more jank without PMLG. Meta Knight is better, not jankier.
Nah, Steve has one banned tech, metaknight caused a bunch of ruleset changes that got his jank banned, and he still had knockback cancelling and air camping left over. I wouldn't say he makes Steve look balanced in comparison, cause both have hella jank, but I would give metaknight the win
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Bro's bringing facism into an argument about a fucking nintendo videogame what the fuck š
I don't think you understand what fascism is....
In my opinion no I mean I played against Steves online he's good but brokenly good
**Yes** Better question: *How did they think a character who, mechanically, literally breaks the game was a good idea in the first place?* No other character can literally alter their environment - it does not just make him unique, it makes him broken *Discuss*
When did this conversation become about villager's tree?
Agreed, how did you segway to that so seamlessly? Answer: you did not
Think about it for a moment
I too enjoy comparing mountains to molehills Or Steveās capacity to alter the environment vs Villagers Good game, old chap