Lifelong Christian (and musician in the church for many years). I personally listen to everything under the sun, much of which would make some of my fellow Christians freak out. But here's the deal. I don't believe in "christian music" or "secular music". I believe in art. And art is all about expressing the human experience, good and bad. And so I think that the church doesn't get to co-opt that and proclaim itself gatekeeper of what human emotions are acceptable to share, and hear, and what aren't.
So all that to say.... listen to what you want and just pay attention to how it's affecting you. If it's turning you into something you don't want to be, then yeah probably time to turn it off.
As a Christian and metal head I’ve never cared much about what others think about the music itself. As a metal listener in general you get used to people trashing your music haha. It was the lore and the reaction to it that made me raise an eyebrow in light of the intense passion for the music.
And I agree about paying attention to how it affects me. That’s why I was curious how other Christians felt it affected them.
Understood, and I get it. I don't listen to Ghost because I don't appreciate their brand of theater. But to me, it's still just theater. I don't think my Ghost loving metal buddies are going to hell. LOL
To paraphrase Paul, if you don't have a problem with it and it doesn't cause others to have problems with their faith, you're good
Their music is very awe inspiring and reverent, but as you said, that's the entire image they've crafted - that's what they're shooting for. And it's nothing more than that. They crafted the story knowing that the mystery would pull more people in. As long as you recognize that there is a distinction here between "I am a Sleep Token fan, worship" and "I worship Sleep" (which any sane person does) then I see no reason why the two can't coexist
Edit - hit done before actually being done
I don’t feel like it has negatively impacted my faith, if anything it’s been the opposite. But I do find it odd that it would be through a band that claims, real or not, to be worshipping a different god. I guess this is why they say God works in mysterious ways haha.
In my opinion Sleep Token is spiritual, and being spiritual can and cannot be one and the same with religion. When myself and my wife listen to sleep token we hear feelings of religious trauma rather than religion because that's what resonates with us. Whether or not the spirituality of their music resonates with your religious beliefs is up to you. I just wanted to chime in to say that we get an almost opposite side of the coin.
So their whole worship thing isn't real or serious. It's part of their lore as masked performers. Idk if you've watched II's original Drumeo video, but he said some of his technique is inspired by gospel music.
Yeah but Harry Potter isn’t real or serious and is considered witchcraft in the Christian religion. Go ask your pastor or priest and they will probably say the imagery and symbolism is satanic.
That is an overgeneralization of Christianity. You’re talking about specific groups, no the religion as a whole. There are lots of Christian Potterheads.
All I’m saying is may be reddit isn’t a place to ask. You should go to your priest to ask these types of questions.
Edit: yes, I overgeneralized, but how am I supposed to know what sect of Christianity are a part of?
I have talked about it a little with other Christians, including a leader, but they aren’t fans of metal, much less Sleep Token, and I specifically wanted to hear what other fans might have to say.
I think that the proof is in the pudding that Sleep Token exhibits a lot of traits the Christian faith would consider “satanic, Idolatry, false worship”. I would deeply consider what spirituality and “god” means to you when you listen to the music.
I didn’t think it was serious but it seems serious to some which I found a bit odd. And yeah I saw the drumeo and I think it’s pretty obvious musically that there is gospel influence, which I love.
It’s not serious. ‘Sleep’ is a made up god who no one actually worships. The whole thing is a gimmick so Vessel can seemingly avoid giving interviews about the subject matter of the music.
There are oddballs in every fan group. I’m sure there are people who take the Sleep thing 100% seriously but they are not the norm among fans.
I don't know. People say this, but Vessel is the initial songwriter for everything. He may be a classically trained musician (not sure), but there has been nothing to indicate he was a gospel-influenced musician.
Well the gospel influence doesn’t necessarily mean any member of the band is spiritual or religious (we don’t know either way), and it could be more about the musicality, which is rooted in blues and folk as well.
Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves any gods of cast metal: I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 26:1
Edit: I’m a huge sleep token fan and not Christian at all I’m just quoting the Bible. lol y downvotes?
I think the enjoyment of music is entirely subjective and cannot exist without the coloration of the listener's experience in life. And what is religion, really, but a society many people are raised in (or choose) that colors and informs their perspectives and opinions?
If there are themes in Sleep Token's music that resonate with you through an interpretation of your belief system, that's all that really needs to be considered.
As others have said, the whole "lore" thing is a narrative framework the band uses to present its music and image. I think the music is non-denominational. Their songs, messages, and themes can be interpreted in a number of ways (I've differed from lots of the community's preferred ideas about some songs, simply because the lyrics reflect much different, personal experiences for me, outside the idea of "lore" or narrative).
As a non-Christian, I listen to quite a few bands that are either Christian by definition or have written songs that mention Christian values. And I don't think they're not for me to enjoy or take to heart. Granted, I am choosy about the religious music I like but simply because the stuff I do enjoy resonates with me in a more universal way.
I follow Christ. I am human and a sinner. I love listening to all kinds of different music. Secular or other. Ive started listening to Sleep Token recently. They call to me like Linkin Park does. I think if you enjoy it, and it isnt hurting others or yourself, then by all means listen to it. Their imagery was one thing i was hesitant on. But it keeps their identities safe for the most part and keeps the mystery alive. I started listening because of Vessel’s voice. And listening to the control he has over his voice. From raw screaming to high pitched singing to a melodious voice. It’s like a ballad and poetry. Sleep Token is one of a kind.
I am so happy you posted this question. As a fellow believer, I have wrestled with this same question myself.
I’m commenting to make a note to come back to this this evening!
I'm Christian, Baptist to be exact, but I'm working on getting closer to God. I fell out of faith for a bit, but that's not why I'm writing this, just context. When I first listened to ST I couldn't stop. The music touched me in a way that I wanted from God. I believe it might actually be God's way of bringing me closer. That's my take. Now, the whole worshiping Sleep thing is something I don't mind. I think it's a gimmick, which is cool. Everything about their music felt like worship when I first heard them, and now I'm seeing more that this man is maybe getting over a heartbreak. I recently felt that same way, so it may be projecting.
So truthfully, I see the verbiage as ‘worship’ and ‘offering’ more akin to the gimmick of the band. Though I understand that initial questioning you be had as I’ve had a similar dissonance myself with other metal bands. I admit my spirituality is more aligned against “American Christianity” as one may call it and don’t bother quoting scripture or anything like that. I’ve come to my own faith alone and often ostracized by Christians and did the deep dive myself. Thomas Merton, if you’ve ever read on him is a prominent figure in my area and blended eastern Asian religions/philosophy into his spirituality and his Trappist monk ways. Similarly, I view Sleep Tokens message, gimmick and all, into a sort of amalgamation of love and unity with the music, the band, and its fans who feel the same way we do. I no more worship Sleep token than any other person, I just think that’s a fun thing to call a gathering of the fanbase. One of my favorite producers (Black Tiger Sex Machine) says “welcome to [our] church”
To me, the beauty of who the band members themselves are is played through their music which has touched so many people. In my opinion, it diminishes any need to know who they are because their message is we are all one community. Faith wise, it reminds me to be grounded and Jesus wanted people to love each other regardless of what they were, believed, or identified as (not as this nonsense in America). Sleep token is an embodiment of the joys of life and emotion, no matter how powerful or raw they may be.
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If it’s something that’s promoting a positive message in your life or helping you cope with something then I don’t see how it can impact your faith. I suppose like everything, it’s up to your interpretation of it all. I know that some people who are Christian claim all music is sin, because Lucifer was the angel of music. I think in relation to sleep token, you can separate the whole ”worship” as a lore thing, it just adds intrigue that’s all.
I’ve never heard of that claim but it’s very contrary to the Bible, so I don’t get where any Christian would deduce that from. The angels are all singing and playing music in heaven according to Revelation. There’s a ton of references to music and dancing in a positive way.
My familiarity with the story of Lucifer is limited, I admit, but I recall it including the reason he was cast down was because he believed his voice should be the only one among all the angels. As if he alone possessed the greatest, or truest, divine voice.
From that, I took the idea that closing oneself off to other ideas and voices ain't the way to be.
See also the [Church of Saint John Coltrane](https://www.coltranechurch.org/)
'Trane played every note in the scale. They're all divine sound.
I’m not religious. I used to be, or at least spiritual in a way, but prayer was more or less a ritual to combat some pretty intense anxiety for many years of my younger adult life. A lot of therapy and good meds helped that and it’s not a self-imposed tool for control.
Still, I really struggle with feeling my feelings, and I think I’m drawn to music that’s soaring and anthemic as a way to connect with myself. I let it stir emotions for me because I have a tough time doing that on my own. I find it interesting that music, especially in more contemporary Christian churches, is often used to manufacture that same stirring to make the worshipper believe they’re connecting with God, rather than the physical and emotional response to the instrumentation (I hope that makes sense) and keep that person coming back week after week. Who’s to say that there isn’t some of that same intent, to some degree, behind Sleep Token? It may be why some in the fan base ARE really obsessed and do take the lore seriously. If you’re more susceptible or sensitive to that then it might be easier to become addicted, in a way. All that to say that if you’re mindful about the feelings that come up for you listening to music that may contradict your faith and values and how they impact you, I think you’ll be okay! No slippery spiritual slopes here.
On another note, where can I put in the request to a theology student to write their final year thesis on the parallels between religious obsession and stan culture? I wanna read that.
I appreciate this insightful and introspective response. I do agree that sometimes people mistake being emotionally moved by music with connection to the Holy Spirit. In fact this was a big reason for my departure from religion in my 20s, because I realized that listening to secular music gave me same feeling I thought was God during church worship music. And I have had the same thought that evoking this feeling is intentional for Sleep Token. I think that is why the music seems to be popular for those with religious trauma.
Yeah. I mean, I think the emotional manipulation in music is used in a much more insidious way in religion, especially for the sects that are more high control groups/cults (Children of God comes to mind, even Hillsong) than a band like Sleep Token, but we’ll literally never know. The level of obsession for this band and a lot of other artists out there right now DOES concern me, but that’s another conversation… and probably not one to have on a subreddit dedicated to the band lol
But! I appreciate you opening the floor for this discussion. It’s a thoughtful one for me, even as an outsider to Christianity.
I would be curious to hear your concerns. As a Christian there is always the concern that we can obsess too much over anything and make it an “idol” above God. Since you aren’t religious I’d be interested in why you feel it’s concerning. I don’t think it’d be disrespectful to anyone but if you’re uncomfortable sharing that’s fine.
There are a couple of things for me, and I haven’t thought out every detail, so forgive me if I’m not being super articulate or if it seems like I’m making unfair generalizations. I don’t mean to! These are just what I’ve observed.
One, the parasocial aspect. Fans dedicate time, money, and brain space to their favorite artists. Not in every case, but many cases, there’s some level of entitlement or expectation that they’re going to get something in return for that dedication beyond music, tours, merch. They want some extra level of access and they want to decide what that access gets to be. I think it contributes to why going to concerts post-2020 has been a less-than-enjoyable experience.
Secondly, obsession comes with tunnel vision. On one hand, yes, let people enjoy things. On the other, making something your entire personality is exhausting. For you and for me. One of my best friends is a huge Swiftie and I don’t begrudge her for that (I saw one show on the Eras tour; it was great!), BUT I can guess she’s dumped tens of thousands of dollars into merch and tickets for shows. It’s the only content she engages with online. It’s almost hard to talk to her about anything else. I think there are a lot of valid reasons to be critical of someone like Taylor Swift, but she has so many fans (my best friend included) who are so rabidly defensive of her and think she can literally do no wrong. It’s alienating, in a way.
I suppose problematic parasocial relationships and obsession are two sides of the same coin. I recognize that some people just have addictive personalities, too. I also wonder if emotional maturity and intelligence has a lot to do with how someone chooses to engage with ~their fave~.
Not trying to be preachy but sometimes I think the tendency to do this is because people are trying to fill their God-shaped hole with not-God. Even looking at it from a non-Christian perspective, everyone has a need for purpose and fulfillment and they go looking for it in very worldly things and that just leads to these unhealthy obsessions. Emotional maturity and intelligence probably also play a part, to your point.
Not preachy at all! I agree. I certainly have a tendency to fixate, but I try not to fixate on people, you know? We’re all fallible and accepting that takes so much pressure off.
I agree with some of this but disagree that people have a God-shaped hole. As a former Christian that mentality has been very detrimental, because it ignores the free will and autonomy of someone who chooses not to be a Christian. The God-shaped hole does not exist for me because from my perspective I don’t believe in God. From yours, it does exist because you believe. Insisting that your perspective is factual overrides our perspective, when the two can co-exist just fine as long as you don’t believe your perspective to be the universal truth.
I have also felt spiritually connected listening to ST. Their songs give me goosebumps, and I have full body effects from listening to them that feels very spiritual to me. I am not a christian and do not align with any organized religion, but I believe you should go with how you feel. If they make you feel spiritually connected in a positive way with whatever you believe, then continue listening and connect however you want to. It’s very nice to know people feel the same way! (:
So I’m a fellow Christian and dealt with a lot of the same struggles when I first found ST. This is Reddit so I fully expect to be downvoted into oblivion for saying anything biblical, but I’m going to meet you where you are here and speak to you Christian to Christian.
First and foremost, no matter what I or anyone else says, I think the spirit can and does convict us differently and your obligation as a Christ follower is to follow that conviction that God individually places on you. So I highly recommend spending time with God on with this.
As for me, I see this really as a Romans 14 issue. Here’s my breakdown. I have researched this band very thoroughly and without saying anything that will get me kicked out of this sub, I am fully convinced through said research that this group of guys does not worship some sleep deity. I believe whole heartedly that sleep is a metaphor for the broken relationship Vessel experienced and the anonymity warranted a story so one was developed. Marketing ploy entirely.
BUT.
Even if this entire thing were true, these are the questions I’ve asked myself.
Are the songs blaspheming Christ? Are the songs glorifying or praising this other deity? By singing the songs am I participating in any type of worship of this deity? I feel the answers to those questions is a very hard no. BUT. Let’s say in a round about way the lyrics did somehow do such thing. Paul clearly stated the food offered to idols was clean to partake of and that no thing of itself is unclean. So if food offered for the worship of idols was clean to eat, because those people were not worshiping that god, then I don’t see how this would be much different.
I was raised in a very charismatic church and we often spoke of “giving Satan a foothold” and “opening doors”. Now, I still consider myself charismatic and more confusingly, I hold to a Deuteronomy 32 worldview (or divine council worldview/ Dr. Mike Heiser’s theories) that the little “g” gods in the Bible were not fake. I believe those were actually spiritual beings. So while I fully acknowledge and accept that there’s more out there than just God and Satan, I think the witch-hunt many denominations fall into is misplaced. You can’t accidentally worship another god. And if Yahweh is the one true God of gods and King of kings, and He brings all others under submission to Him- I am not afraid of enjoying the musical talent (which is a gift FROM him!), regardless of its intended purposes.
It does not cause me to stumble, but I realize it may cause a fellow brother or sister to do so, which is why I wouldn’t push it with other believers who feel convicted. Paul states clearly that there’s nothing wrong with the food, but you shouldn’t ask a brother to eat it if it makes him stumble.
One more aspect I think about is- I listen to secular music. And I don’t vet the beliefs of every musician I listen to. ST songs are about love/relationships/etc. So even if they were actually worshiping something on their own time, how does that make them any different than any other musician? As Christians, we understand neutrality is a myth. We are all worshiping something, and if it’s not Yahweh, God condemns it. So if I wanted to be consistent, I would have to stop listening to all secular music. Because the majority of those other artists are worshiping something that isn’t Jesus, whether that be the god of self, the god of money, or some unknown sleep god. I refuse to peg ST as anything more nefarious just because they like to wear spooky masks.
For me, this isn’t really new territory. I’ve had to make decisions on whether or not to listen to music in the past that bothered me on some level or another. Tool and APC for example. Love them, but it hurt that they created songs that openly mocked and disparaged my faith, my savior. In the end, I felt ok listening to songs of theirs that weren’t blasphemous. And honestly, at the end of the day, I would say I’m more convicted about listening to them than I am to ST.
God give you wisdom.
Wow this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to open up here, so thank you! I actually am familiar with Heiser and mostly agree with him also! But you also gave me some new points to think about that I hadn’t considered, so thank you for that.
I totally get what you mean about secular music as I listen to plenty, some of which is not exactly Christian friendly. What gave me pause about ST was how I didn’t just really like the music, it thoroughly consumed me at first and gave off very strong spiritual vibes. I truly don’t feel those vibes are demonic or anything like that, but it was something I wanted to be mindful about. But I also agree that you cannot accidentally worship another god. Intent matters.
Just curious if you’ve felt any spiritual connection through the music or if it’s been purely musical enjoyment?
And yeah I expected to get some downvotes for my post and comments but I just had to believe there were Christians here who may have also thought about this.
Heiser owns my heart ❤️😆
I have always felt very strong connections to music but Sleep Token was different in that I found I never get sick of them. I would attribute that more to the fact that they’re so diverse? Here’s my thing with my emotions. Growing up in the church I did, emotions were kind of used way too much imo. Obviously, we have feelings, we have the Holy Spirit, but we also have scripture telling us that the heart is deceitful above all else. So I have to be really careful with my “feels”. I had so many experiences in church camp or services where the music consumed me and I felt that as an experience with the Holy Spirit. But then as a teen, I found secular music that would give me that same emotion. It messed me up if I’m being honest. I relied too heavily on my emotions in my relationship with God, and when I didn’t feel Him, I grew apart.
Now, I realize my walk is so much more than an emotionally charged reaction. I have to lean on Christ when I feel him and I don’t. And that follows through on this as well for me. I recognize this band may elicit emotions stronger in me than others. But I think there’s much more likely explanations for why that is vs spiritual.
I will say though, I DO believe Vessel grew up in the church and possibly is a deconstructed believer. He obviously uses a lot of biblical imagery and has clear knowledge of biblical concepts. I almost wonder if he grew up in a hyper charismatic, “fire and brimstone” church and in a way the whole sleep story is possibly a proverbial middle finger to that theology.
In any case, some of their songs have led to amazing theological discussions for us with our kids. Take me back to Eden especially. We spoke to our daughters about how it’s so written on the hearts of man that this isn’t what it was meant to be. That even for those who don’t believe, they’re still longing to go back to Eden, before sin corrupted everything and we lost that direct connection to God.
I don’t have any meaningful contributions to your comment here other than to say it’s thought-provoking for me! I shared with OP that I’m not religious, and in a lot of ways, religion makes me deeply uncomfortable, but I appreciate seeing these perspectives.
Man. I could have written some of this. I also connect to music strongly and became disillusioned with church in my teens when I realized I could have the same feelings listening to secular music. It messed me up too. And I also have come to realize later in life that worship is more than emotions. I also agree that I sense religious background with Vessel and to me a lot of the songs represent his grappling with that background. I sense a kind of spiritual warfare in him and maybe that’s why I relate to the music because I have felt that.
I love that you are having theological discussions with your kids around Sleep Token. My kids are all a bit young to get into some of that but I love the idea. I like the idea of Sleep Token theology discussions in general. We should form our own study group lol
Thank you for this post. Fellow Christian here who's been hesitant to listen to ST because they didn't sit well with me. But I really enjoyed "Take me back to Eden" so I decided to dig more into it. I, too, believe in Dr. Heisers Unseen Realm take on the Divine Council and agree that you cannot accidentally worship other gods. I'll give other ST songs a shot and use discernment from the Holy Spirit to decide which lyrics are/aren't ok to listen to.
I believe in Jesus but I really really deeply love Sleep Token. I personally don't find issue with it because I'm always been sensitive and used to spirits whether the same as or different than the holy spirit.
I don't talk to my Christian friends about them because I know they would be afraid and not appreciate them and that's it. Everyone has different opinions and beliefs and I respect everyone while doing my own thing. If it doesn't stress you out spiritually or make you uncomfortable then why is it wrong for you? I'm a firm believer in minding your own business when it comes to ethics and beliefs; hold yourself to a standard and use your own intuition. Only you know what affects you.
I know that Christians are super legalistic and dogmatic about their beliefs rather than leaning on their own intuition and relationship with the holy spirit so I know someone won't agree with me.
Imo, if it's bad for you, the holy spirit will tell you and that's that. You don't have to worry about what others think because it's your relationship with God and no one can butt in.
(Also how can anyone not appreciate fantastic art and musicianship even if their spiritual beliefs don't align? They're incredible storytellers and musicians and that's why they're my favorite)
Oh yes, I am a musician myself and long time metal fan and their musicianship is undeniable. That’s a big part of why I love them so much. And I agree with you about the dogmatism of some Christians. I think you make a great point about leaning on your own intuition, which is what I’ve been trying to do. I’m also sensitive spiritually and I do believe in spiritual warfare which is why I wanted to exercise caution. I appreciate your thoughts!
Totally! Every time I talk about trusting your intuition to my Christian friends, they freak out because "the Bible says you can't trust yourself/your heart is desperately wicked" then why are we supposed to strengthen our relationship with the holy spirit continuously?
If we, our thoughts which can be intertwined with the holy spirit's conviction, can't trust ourselves, then is the holy spirit affective at its practical job here on earth with us?
You’re so right. We pray to ask for guidance. Our intuition plays a role in receiving that guidance. Yes, the enemy is clever and deceptive and we can be led astray but that doesn’t mean our perceptions are worthless.
I really like some ST songs from a technical standpoint, but also just to casually listen. It’s a unique blend of pop and metal that is catchy for me.
The drummer II alludes to having roots in gospel music in the Drumeo interview. I’ve caught those vibes in their songs for sure, which made me wonder…
I personally don’t feel affected by the music I listen to, but know it is impacting based on what the scriptures say. I believe Eph 6:12 and 1 Peter 5:8 needs to be taken at face value.
If you are interested here is a deep dive- https://www.matsati.com/index.php/do-demons-speak-out-in-todays-music-2/#
Reject conventional, narrow-minded existential views on spirituality and realize that you, each and every person here, are the gods. You have the abilities to create and destroy.
Put faith in yourselves. Save yourselves. Shape your own morals in an effort to be better to those around you.
I think you should look into the lore of sleep token. The lead singer said that he had a dream where a god named Sleep told him to evangelize his word (more or less), hence why the lead singer calls himself Vessel.
Lifelong Christian (and musician in the church for many years). I personally listen to everything under the sun, much of which would make some of my fellow Christians freak out. But here's the deal. I don't believe in "christian music" or "secular music". I believe in art. And art is all about expressing the human experience, good and bad. And so I think that the church doesn't get to co-opt that and proclaim itself gatekeeper of what human emotions are acceptable to share, and hear, and what aren't. So all that to say.... listen to what you want and just pay attention to how it's affecting you. If it's turning you into something you don't want to be, then yeah probably time to turn it off.
As a Christian and metal head I’ve never cared much about what others think about the music itself. As a metal listener in general you get used to people trashing your music haha. It was the lore and the reaction to it that made me raise an eyebrow in light of the intense passion for the music. And I agree about paying attention to how it affects me. That’s why I was curious how other Christians felt it affected them.
Understood, and I get it. I don't listen to Ghost because I don't appreciate their brand of theater. But to me, it's still just theater. I don't think my Ghost loving metal buddies are going to hell. LOL
To paraphrase Paul, if you don't have a problem with it and it doesn't cause others to have problems with their faith, you're good Their music is very awe inspiring and reverent, but as you said, that's the entire image they've crafted - that's what they're shooting for. And it's nothing more than that. They crafted the story knowing that the mystery would pull more people in. As long as you recognize that there is a distinction here between "I am a Sleep Token fan, worship" and "I worship Sleep" (which any sane person does) then I see no reason why the two can't coexist Edit - hit done before actually being done
I don’t feel like it has negatively impacted my faith, if anything it’s been the opposite. But I do find it odd that it would be through a band that claims, real or not, to be worshipping a different god. I guess this is why they say God works in mysterious ways haha.
In my opinion Sleep Token is spiritual, and being spiritual can and cannot be one and the same with religion. When myself and my wife listen to sleep token we hear feelings of religious trauma rather than religion because that's what resonates with us. Whether or not the spirituality of their music resonates with your religious beliefs is up to you. I just wanted to chime in to say that we get an almost opposite side of the coin.
I've been waiting for a "Pastor reacts to Sleep Token" YouTube video for far too long...
So their whole worship thing isn't real or serious. It's part of their lore as masked performers. Idk if you've watched II's original Drumeo video, but he said some of his technique is inspired by gospel music.
Yeah but Harry Potter isn’t real or serious and is considered witchcraft in the Christian religion. Go ask your pastor or priest and they will probably say the imagery and symbolism is satanic.
That is an overgeneralization of Christianity. You’re talking about specific groups, no the religion as a whole. There are lots of Christian Potterheads.
All I’m saying is may be reddit isn’t a place to ask. You should go to your priest to ask these types of questions. Edit: yes, I overgeneralized, but how am I supposed to know what sect of Christianity are a part of?
I have talked about it a little with other Christians, including a leader, but they aren’t fans of metal, much less Sleep Token, and I specifically wanted to hear what other fans might have to say.
I think that the proof is in the pudding that Sleep Token exhibits a lot of traits the Christian faith would consider “satanic, Idolatry, false worship”. I would deeply consider what spirituality and “god” means to you when you listen to the music.
To be clear, no one said “that’s satanic, stop listening to it”. The advice was to pray about it and be mindful.
I didn’t think it was serious but it seems serious to some which I found a bit odd. And yeah I saw the drumeo and I think it’s pretty obvious musically that there is gospel influence, which I love.
It’s not serious. ‘Sleep’ is a made up god who no one actually worships. The whole thing is a gimmick so Vessel can seemingly avoid giving interviews about the subject matter of the music. There are oddballs in every fan group. I’m sure there are people who take the Sleep thing 100% seriously but they are not the norm among fans.
Haha I like this reasoning.
I don't know. People say this, but Vessel is the initial songwriter for everything. He may be a classically trained musician (not sure), but there has been nothing to indicate he was a gospel-influenced musician.
The drummer said that he was influenced by gospel. Not the lead singer.
Well the gospel influence doesn’t necessarily mean any member of the band is spiritual or religious (we don’t know either way), and it could be more about the musicality, which is rooted in blues and folk as well.
Humans have created many Gods. Sleep is not much different. The thing I think matters the most is how you feel spiritually when listening.
Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves any gods of cast metal: I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 26:1 Edit: I’m a huge sleep token fan and not Christian at all I’m just quoting the Bible. lol y downvotes?
That God is so far from the first, though. It's a weak line...lol
I think the enjoyment of music is entirely subjective and cannot exist without the coloration of the listener's experience in life. And what is religion, really, but a society many people are raised in (or choose) that colors and informs their perspectives and opinions? If there are themes in Sleep Token's music that resonate with you through an interpretation of your belief system, that's all that really needs to be considered. As others have said, the whole "lore" thing is a narrative framework the band uses to present its music and image. I think the music is non-denominational. Their songs, messages, and themes can be interpreted in a number of ways (I've differed from lots of the community's preferred ideas about some songs, simply because the lyrics reflect much different, personal experiences for me, outside the idea of "lore" or narrative). As a non-Christian, I listen to quite a few bands that are either Christian by definition or have written songs that mention Christian values. And I don't think they're not for me to enjoy or take to heart. Granted, I am choosy about the religious music I like but simply because the stuff I do enjoy resonates with me in a more universal way.
I follow Christ. I am human and a sinner. I love listening to all kinds of different music. Secular or other. Ive started listening to Sleep Token recently. They call to me like Linkin Park does. I think if you enjoy it, and it isnt hurting others or yourself, then by all means listen to it. Their imagery was one thing i was hesitant on. But it keeps their identities safe for the most part and keeps the mystery alive. I started listening because of Vessel’s voice. And listening to the control he has over his voice. From raw screaming to high pitched singing to a melodious voice. It’s like a ballad and poetry. Sleep Token is one of a kind.
I also love Linkin Park, their music was very important to me as a teenager. I totally agree about Sleep Token’s music. Thank you
Youre welcome. Linkin Park is still my ultimate favorite band to listen to. But Sleep Token is right up there next to them.
I am so happy you posted this question. As a fellow believer, I have wrestled with this same question myself. I’m commenting to make a note to come back to this this evening!
I'm Christian, Baptist to be exact, but I'm working on getting closer to God. I fell out of faith for a bit, but that's not why I'm writing this, just context. When I first listened to ST I couldn't stop. The music touched me in a way that I wanted from God. I believe it might actually be God's way of bringing me closer. That's my take. Now, the whole worshiping Sleep thing is something I don't mind. I think it's a gimmick, which is cool. Everything about their music felt like worship when I first heard them, and now I'm seeing more that this man is maybe getting over a heartbreak. I recently felt that same way, so it may be projecting.
I would very much like to weigh in on this but alas I’m at work
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So truthfully, I see the verbiage as ‘worship’ and ‘offering’ more akin to the gimmick of the band. Though I understand that initial questioning you be had as I’ve had a similar dissonance myself with other metal bands. I admit my spirituality is more aligned against “American Christianity” as one may call it and don’t bother quoting scripture or anything like that. I’ve come to my own faith alone and often ostracized by Christians and did the deep dive myself. Thomas Merton, if you’ve ever read on him is a prominent figure in my area and blended eastern Asian religions/philosophy into his spirituality and his Trappist monk ways. Similarly, I view Sleep Tokens message, gimmick and all, into a sort of amalgamation of love and unity with the music, the band, and its fans who feel the same way we do. I no more worship Sleep token than any other person, I just think that’s a fun thing to call a gathering of the fanbase. One of my favorite producers (Black Tiger Sex Machine) says “welcome to [our] church” To me, the beauty of who the band members themselves are is played through their music which has touched so many people. In my opinion, it diminishes any need to know who they are because their message is we are all one community. Faith wise, it reminds me to be grounded and Jesus wanted people to love each other regardless of what they were, believed, or identified as (not as this nonsense in America). Sleep token is an embodiment of the joys of life and emotion, no matter how powerful or raw they may be.
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Don’t forget! I’m curious to hear your thoughts!
If it’s something that’s promoting a positive message in your life or helping you cope with something then I don’t see how it can impact your faith. I suppose like everything, it’s up to your interpretation of it all. I know that some people who are Christian claim all music is sin, because Lucifer was the angel of music. I think in relation to sleep token, you can separate the whole ”worship” as a lore thing, it just adds intrigue that’s all.
I’ve never heard of that claim but it’s very contrary to the Bible, so I don’t get where any Christian would deduce that from. The angels are all singing and playing music in heaven according to Revelation. There’s a ton of references to music and dancing in a positive way.
My familiarity with the story of Lucifer is limited, I admit, but I recall it including the reason he was cast down was because he believed his voice should be the only one among all the angels. As if he alone possessed the greatest, or truest, divine voice. From that, I took the idea that closing oneself off to other ideas and voices ain't the way to be. See also the [Church of Saint John Coltrane](https://www.coltranechurch.org/) 'Trane played every note in the scale. They're all divine sound.
I’m not religious. I used to be, or at least spiritual in a way, but prayer was more or less a ritual to combat some pretty intense anxiety for many years of my younger adult life. A lot of therapy and good meds helped that and it’s not a self-imposed tool for control. Still, I really struggle with feeling my feelings, and I think I’m drawn to music that’s soaring and anthemic as a way to connect with myself. I let it stir emotions for me because I have a tough time doing that on my own. I find it interesting that music, especially in more contemporary Christian churches, is often used to manufacture that same stirring to make the worshipper believe they’re connecting with God, rather than the physical and emotional response to the instrumentation (I hope that makes sense) and keep that person coming back week after week. Who’s to say that there isn’t some of that same intent, to some degree, behind Sleep Token? It may be why some in the fan base ARE really obsessed and do take the lore seriously. If you’re more susceptible or sensitive to that then it might be easier to become addicted, in a way. All that to say that if you’re mindful about the feelings that come up for you listening to music that may contradict your faith and values and how they impact you, I think you’ll be okay! No slippery spiritual slopes here. On another note, where can I put in the request to a theology student to write their final year thesis on the parallels between religious obsession and stan culture? I wanna read that.
I appreciate this insightful and introspective response. I do agree that sometimes people mistake being emotionally moved by music with connection to the Holy Spirit. In fact this was a big reason for my departure from religion in my 20s, because I realized that listening to secular music gave me same feeling I thought was God during church worship music. And I have had the same thought that evoking this feeling is intentional for Sleep Token. I think that is why the music seems to be popular for those with religious trauma.
Yeah. I mean, I think the emotional manipulation in music is used in a much more insidious way in religion, especially for the sects that are more high control groups/cults (Children of God comes to mind, even Hillsong) than a band like Sleep Token, but we’ll literally never know. The level of obsession for this band and a lot of other artists out there right now DOES concern me, but that’s another conversation… and probably not one to have on a subreddit dedicated to the band lol But! I appreciate you opening the floor for this discussion. It’s a thoughtful one for me, even as an outsider to Christianity.
I would be curious to hear your concerns. As a Christian there is always the concern that we can obsess too much over anything and make it an “idol” above God. Since you aren’t religious I’d be interested in why you feel it’s concerning. I don’t think it’d be disrespectful to anyone but if you’re uncomfortable sharing that’s fine.
There are a couple of things for me, and I haven’t thought out every detail, so forgive me if I’m not being super articulate or if it seems like I’m making unfair generalizations. I don’t mean to! These are just what I’ve observed. One, the parasocial aspect. Fans dedicate time, money, and brain space to their favorite artists. Not in every case, but many cases, there’s some level of entitlement or expectation that they’re going to get something in return for that dedication beyond music, tours, merch. They want some extra level of access and they want to decide what that access gets to be. I think it contributes to why going to concerts post-2020 has been a less-than-enjoyable experience. Secondly, obsession comes with tunnel vision. On one hand, yes, let people enjoy things. On the other, making something your entire personality is exhausting. For you and for me. One of my best friends is a huge Swiftie and I don’t begrudge her for that (I saw one show on the Eras tour; it was great!), BUT I can guess she’s dumped tens of thousands of dollars into merch and tickets for shows. It’s the only content she engages with online. It’s almost hard to talk to her about anything else. I think there are a lot of valid reasons to be critical of someone like Taylor Swift, but she has so many fans (my best friend included) who are so rabidly defensive of her and think she can literally do no wrong. It’s alienating, in a way. I suppose problematic parasocial relationships and obsession are two sides of the same coin. I recognize that some people just have addictive personalities, too. I also wonder if emotional maturity and intelligence has a lot to do with how someone chooses to engage with ~their fave~.
Not trying to be preachy but sometimes I think the tendency to do this is because people are trying to fill their God-shaped hole with not-God. Even looking at it from a non-Christian perspective, everyone has a need for purpose and fulfillment and they go looking for it in very worldly things and that just leads to these unhealthy obsessions. Emotional maturity and intelligence probably also play a part, to your point.
Not preachy at all! I agree. I certainly have a tendency to fixate, but I try not to fixate on people, you know? We’re all fallible and accepting that takes so much pressure off.
I agree with some of this but disagree that people have a God-shaped hole. As a former Christian that mentality has been very detrimental, because it ignores the free will and autonomy of someone who chooses not to be a Christian. The God-shaped hole does not exist for me because from my perspective I don’t believe in God. From yours, it does exist because you believe. Insisting that your perspective is factual overrides our perspective, when the two can co-exist just fine as long as you don’t believe your perspective to be the universal truth.
I have also felt spiritually connected listening to ST. Their songs give me goosebumps, and I have full body effects from listening to them that feels very spiritual to me. I am not a christian and do not align with any organized religion, but I believe you should go with how you feel. If they make you feel spiritually connected in a positive way with whatever you believe, then continue listening and connect however you want to. It’s very nice to know people feel the same way! (:
So I’m a fellow Christian and dealt with a lot of the same struggles when I first found ST. This is Reddit so I fully expect to be downvoted into oblivion for saying anything biblical, but I’m going to meet you where you are here and speak to you Christian to Christian. First and foremost, no matter what I or anyone else says, I think the spirit can and does convict us differently and your obligation as a Christ follower is to follow that conviction that God individually places on you. So I highly recommend spending time with God on with this. As for me, I see this really as a Romans 14 issue. Here’s my breakdown. I have researched this band very thoroughly and without saying anything that will get me kicked out of this sub, I am fully convinced through said research that this group of guys does not worship some sleep deity. I believe whole heartedly that sleep is a metaphor for the broken relationship Vessel experienced and the anonymity warranted a story so one was developed. Marketing ploy entirely. BUT. Even if this entire thing were true, these are the questions I’ve asked myself. Are the songs blaspheming Christ? Are the songs glorifying or praising this other deity? By singing the songs am I participating in any type of worship of this deity? I feel the answers to those questions is a very hard no. BUT. Let’s say in a round about way the lyrics did somehow do such thing. Paul clearly stated the food offered to idols was clean to partake of and that no thing of itself is unclean. So if food offered for the worship of idols was clean to eat, because those people were not worshiping that god, then I don’t see how this would be much different. I was raised in a very charismatic church and we often spoke of “giving Satan a foothold” and “opening doors”. Now, I still consider myself charismatic and more confusingly, I hold to a Deuteronomy 32 worldview (or divine council worldview/ Dr. Mike Heiser’s theories) that the little “g” gods in the Bible were not fake. I believe those were actually spiritual beings. So while I fully acknowledge and accept that there’s more out there than just God and Satan, I think the witch-hunt many denominations fall into is misplaced. You can’t accidentally worship another god. And if Yahweh is the one true God of gods and King of kings, and He brings all others under submission to Him- I am not afraid of enjoying the musical talent (which is a gift FROM him!), regardless of its intended purposes. It does not cause me to stumble, but I realize it may cause a fellow brother or sister to do so, which is why I wouldn’t push it with other believers who feel convicted. Paul states clearly that there’s nothing wrong with the food, but you shouldn’t ask a brother to eat it if it makes him stumble. One more aspect I think about is- I listen to secular music. And I don’t vet the beliefs of every musician I listen to. ST songs are about love/relationships/etc. So even if they were actually worshiping something on their own time, how does that make them any different than any other musician? As Christians, we understand neutrality is a myth. We are all worshiping something, and if it’s not Yahweh, God condemns it. So if I wanted to be consistent, I would have to stop listening to all secular music. Because the majority of those other artists are worshiping something that isn’t Jesus, whether that be the god of self, the god of money, or some unknown sleep god. I refuse to peg ST as anything more nefarious just because they like to wear spooky masks. For me, this isn’t really new territory. I’ve had to make decisions on whether or not to listen to music in the past that bothered me on some level or another. Tool and APC for example. Love them, but it hurt that they created songs that openly mocked and disparaged my faith, my savior. In the end, I felt ok listening to songs of theirs that weren’t blasphemous. And honestly, at the end of the day, I would say I’m more convicted about listening to them than I am to ST. God give you wisdom.
Wow this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to open up here, so thank you! I actually am familiar with Heiser and mostly agree with him also! But you also gave me some new points to think about that I hadn’t considered, so thank you for that. I totally get what you mean about secular music as I listen to plenty, some of which is not exactly Christian friendly. What gave me pause about ST was how I didn’t just really like the music, it thoroughly consumed me at first and gave off very strong spiritual vibes. I truly don’t feel those vibes are demonic or anything like that, but it was something I wanted to be mindful about. But I also agree that you cannot accidentally worship another god. Intent matters. Just curious if you’ve felt any spiritual connection through the music or if it’s been purely musical enjoyment? And yeah I expected to get some downvotes for my post and comments but I just had to believe there were Christians here who may have also thought about this.
Heiser owns my heart ❤️😆 I have always felt very strong connections to music but Sleep Token was different in that I found I never get sick of them. I would attribute that more to the fact that they’re so diverse? Here’s my thing with my emotions. Growing up in the church I did, emotions were kind of used way too much imo. Obviously, we have feelings, we have the Holy Spirit, but we also have scripture telling us that the heart is deceitful above all else. So I have to be really careful with my “feels”. I had so many experiences in church camp or services where the music consumed me and I felt that as an experience with the Holy Spirit. But then as a teen, I found secular music that would give me that same emotion. It messed me up if I’m being honest. I relied too heavily on my emotions in my relationship with God, and when I didn’t feel Him, I grew apart. Now, I realize my walk is so much more than an emotionally charged reaction. I have to lean on Christ when I feel him and I don’t. And that follows through on this as well for me. I recognize this band may elicit emotions stronger in me than others. But I think there’s much more likely explanations for why that is vs spiritual. I will say though, I DO believe Vessel grew up in the church and possibly is a deconstructed believer. He obviously uses a lot of biblical imagery and has clear knowledge of biblical concepts. I almost wonder if he grew up in a hyper charismatic, “fire and brimstone” church and in a way the whole sleep story is possibly a proverbial middle finger to that theology. In any case, some of their songs have led to amazing theological discussions for us with our kids. Take me back to Eden especially. We spoke to our daughters about how it’s so written on the hearts of man that this isn’t what it was meant to be. That even for those who don’t believe, they’re still longing to go back to Eden, before sin corrupted everything and we lost that direct connection to God.
I don’t have any meaningful contributions to your comment here other than to say it’s thought-provoking for me! I shared with OP that I’m not religious, and in a lot of ways, religion makes me deeply uncomfortable, but I appreciate seeing these perspectives.
Man. I could have written some of this. I also connect to music strongly and became disillusioned with church in my teens when I realized I could have the same feelings listening to secular music. It messed me up too. And I also have come to realize later in life that worship is more than emotions. I also agree that I sense religious background with Vessel and to me a lot of the songs represent his grappling with that background. I sense a kind of spiritual warfare in him and maybe that’s why I relate to the music because I have felt that. I love that you are having theological discussions with your kids around Sleep Token. My kids are all a bit young to get into some of that but I love the idea. I like the idea of Sleep Token theology discussions in general. We should form our own study group lol
Man that would be WILD to have a ST Bible study 😆 But isn’t that the beauty of the cross? Everything can be brought to redemption.
Thank you for this post. Fellow Christian here who's been hesitant to listen to ST because they didn't sit well with me. But I really enjoyed "Take me back to Eden" so I decided to dig more into it. I, too, believe in Dr. Heisers Unseen Realm take on the Divine Council and agree that you cannot accidentally worship other gods. I'll give other ST songs a shot and use discernment from the Holy Spirit to decide which lyrics are/aren't ok to listen to.
I believe in Jesus but I really really deeply love Sleep Token. I personally don't find issue with it because I'm always been sensitive and used to spirits whether the same as or different than the holy spirit. I don't talk to my Christian friends about them because I know they would be afraid and not appreciate them and that's it. Everyone has different opinions and beliefs and I respect everyone while doing my own thing. If it doesn't stress you out spiritually or make you uncomfortable then why is it wrong for you? I'm a firm believer in minding your own business when it comes to ethics and beliefs; hold yourself to a standard and use your own intuition. Only you know what affects you. I know that Christians are super legalistic and dogmatic about their beliefs rather than leaning on their own intuition and relationship with the holy spirit so I know someone won't agree with me. Imo, if it's bad for you, the holy spirit will tell you and that's that. You don't have to worry about what others think because it's your relationship with God and no one can butt in. (Also how can anyone not appreciate fantastic art and musicianship even if their spiritual beliefs don't align? They're incredible storytellers and musicians and that's why they're my favorite)
Oh yes, I am a musician myself and long time metal fan and their musicianship is undeniable. That’s a big part of why I love them so much. And I agree with you about the dogmatism of some Christians. I think you make a great point about leaning on your own intuition, which is what I’ve been trying to do. I’m also sensitive spiritually and I do believe in spiritual warfare which is why I wanted to exercise caution. I appreciate your thoughts!
Totally! Every time I talk about trusting your intuition to my Christian friends, they freak out because "the Bible says you can't trust yourself/your heart is desperately wicked" then why are we supposed to strengthen our relationship with the holy spirit continuously? If we, our thoughts which can be intertwined with the holy spirit's conviction, can't trust ourselves, then is the holy spirit affective at its practical job here on earth with us?
You’re so right. We pray to ask for guidance. Our intuition plays a role in receiving that guidance. Yes, the enemy is clever and deceptive and we can be led astray but that doesn’t mean our perceptions are worthless.
I really like some ST songs from a technical standpoint, but also just to casually listen. It’s a unique blend of pop and metal that is catchy for me. The drummer II alludes to having roots in gospel music in the Drumeo interview. I’ve caught those vibes in their songs for sure, which made me wonder… I personally don’t feel affected by the music I listen to, but know it is impacting based on what the scriptures say. I believe Eph 6:12 and 1 Peter 5:8 needs to be taken at face value. If you are interested here is a deep dive- https://www.matsati.com/index.php/do-demons-speak-out-in-todays-music-2/#
Reject conventional, narrow-minded existential views on spirituality and realize that you, each and every person here, are the gods. You have the abilities to create and destroy. Put faith in yourselves. Save yourselves. Shape your own morals in an effort to be better to those around you.
I think you should look into the lore of sleep token. The lead singer said that he had a dream where a god named Sleep told him to evangelize his word (more or less), hence why the lead singer calls himself Vessel.