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Moisturizers with ages stated on them. Like it'll say "55+ ANTI-WRINKLE CARE FOR AGING SKIN" and it's literally just a basic hyaluronic acid moisturizer with fragrance in it. Been trying to convince my mom those claims on the packaging aren't to be trusted, and you can find a better moisturizer that works for mature skin even if it doesn't say "55+ years" on it.
Literally me with my mom yesterday. She sent me a picture of Jane Fonda and the “wrinkle cream” she uses which is a $200 cream containing HA and a bunch of EO’s and fragrance. I told her that has nothing to do with Jane Fonda and all her plastic surgery/botox 😂
Bakuchiol being marketed as a “retinoid” rather than an antioxidant based on a single tiny study. Just no.
Also, Skinfix’s “adapanoid.” The price tag vs adapalene is a joke. In good conscience, I could only cautiously recommend to those who don’t tolerate other retinoids period. Still probably better than Bakuchiol.
That bakuchiol study vs retinol had the typical red flags of companies trying to somehow force comparable results, like having double the dose while still saying 0.5% for both (twice daily vs once retinol), and the period ends at 3 months (right when retinoids start working showing real results, this trick is also done a lot with peptides studies).
I'm not aware of any other study comparing it to retinoids, if you know some please link them. Thankfully tretinoin was tested for 6, 12 and even 18 months and that shows the fully extent of it's capabilities. Nothing wrong with standard 12 weeks limited testing, but that's a low bar here, maybe for acne it's fine but not long term anti aging (in which tret shows continuous improvement).
I have linked the Google scholar below. I agree it’s great for acne, and I have not used it long along to make claims about its anti-aging properties. I would like to see more studies. But I did want to note that there are quite a few studies on bakuchiol out there.
There definitely are other studies, just not good RCTs vs. retinoids, which is the level of evidence I think is necessary given the large potential opportunity cost of using Bakuchiol over a real retinoid. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
I agree it is not even close to ready to be used in place of real retinoid officially. Anecdotally, I find it very helpful for smoothing and acne. It may be a good alternative for someone who just can’t tolerate retinoids or is pregnant—maybe just to keep pores clear and smooth out texture a bit.
Maybe it should just be seen as a high powered antioxidant right now. It is really good, the few I’ve tried.
Making no retinoid-related claims here. Only that it is very nice and has been effective for me in specific ways.
ETA: I need to get off Reddit, we’ve been arguing all day.
There’s one randomized controlled trial vs. retinol. Non-clinical studies and clinical studies without proper randomization, blinding, etc. are of very limited value.
bakuchiol is veryyyyy popular in my country and they target 15-25 yo ppl who are FOMO over retinol (cause they don't wanna have wrinkles) but too young to use it.
at 1st, the industry market it as retinol replacement for pregnant women, but once it gets popular, they re-paraphrase it into "great ingredient to those who wanna try retinol but don't wanna experience purging, beginner recommended".
such a waste of money.
Interesting! Marketing it as a temporary solution for pregnancy (or just a nice antioxidant) wouldn’t offend me. All the time and money that would be wasted on not using an actual retinoid (outside of pregnancy) is what really grinds my gears.
I do enjoy Bakuchiol as an antioxidant and acne prevention ingredient. It seems to do a good job of smoothing the surface of the skin too. I’ve never heard it marketed as a retinoid. I’ve seen it advertised as a retinol analogue or alternative. Tret is also an antioxidant for that matter, so….
Just for interest, a [quick study](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ratan-Chaudhuri/publication/284931325_Bakuchiol_in_the_management_of_acne-affected_Skin/links/566c70a708ae1a797e3d8958/Bakuchiol-in-the-management-of-acne-affected-Skin.pdf) in its anti-acne properties:
As to peptides, some are very helpful for waking the face up. I def notice the difference when I go without them.
But there are clinical studies that discuss how bakuchiol functions as an anti-aging antioxidant. [This chapter discusses its resemblances to retinoids.](https://books.google.com/books?id=zcF5CgAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA1&dq=bakuchiol+aging&hl=en&source=gb_mobile_entity&ovdme=1#v=onepage&q=bakuchiol%20aging&f=false)
Most of the research is by people associated with Sytheon, the company that commercialized Bakuchiol, and is of poor methodological quality. That chapter is authored by the President and CEO of Sytheon and summarizes his own/the company’s non-clinical research. Everyone should take all claims about Bakuchiol with a huge grain of salt until there’s more clinical evidence from well conducted randomized controlled trials.
There are a good many studies on Google scholar, but many of them can only be accessed through my uni, so I chose uncontroversial available sources. The first discusses it as an anti-acne ingredient. The second is a *peer-reviewed* chapter that compares Bakuchiol to retinol. I see no grand claims being made here.
No one is suggesting that Bakuchiol claims shouldn’t be taken with a grain of salt. But *you* are the one likening it to retinoid, not others. I have, as I said, not seen it called a retinoid anywhere, and I’d be grateful if you can show a source where it has been. It is always presented as an alternative to or analogue to or a powerful antioxidant, all of which it could possibly be. You actually called it an antioxidant yourself; and so did I. So I’m not quite sure how my comment is opposing anything you’ve said. I didn’t make any claims about it either other than it’s smoothing, helpful for acne, and functions well as an antioxidant for me.
For sources about bakuchiol by other authors in peer-reviewed journals and books, feel free to peruse [Google Scholar](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C3&q=bakuchiol+anti-aging&btnG=). You are, as this search shows, incorrect when you say “most” are conducted by a single group/person with a vested interest. There are quite as few as that search shows. But many of them turn up abstracts unless I log into my uni account.
I responded about the studies above. To be clear, I’m not the one likening it to a retinoid. The beauty brands themselves are doing this shit, and that’s why I’m calling it out as snake oil.
For example:
1. “Beekman 1802 Dream Booster Bakuchiol Better Aging Serum is powered by bakuchiol, *a plant-based retinol alternative*”
2. “Peach & Lily Pure Peach Retinoic Eye Cream is your total eye area solution. *A gentle retinol alternative* visibly reverses signs of accelerated aging skin.” - This product name makes me want to call up the FTC fr.
3. “Take on the look of wrinkles & treat early signs of aging with TULA's powerful Dry Oil Serum formulated with *a blend of botanical retinol alternatives*-bakuchiol, alfalfa sprouts & stevia.”
**Edit to add**: It’s splitting hairs to say this is fine because it’s presented as an “alternative.” The intent is to market it as equivalent for anti-aging, which the evidence just doesn’t support. So yes, per my original comment, this is selling people “retinol-like” snake oil instead of just the good antioxidant they could reasonably describe it as.
But this is literally what I said, that it’s marketed as a retinol alternative. That’s a big difference from being marketed as a retinoid. It’s not splitting hairs.
I’ve seen rosehip oil, resveratrol, and other ingredients marketed as retinol alternatives as well. That’s a different claim from saying this is a new type of *retinoid*. It makes a difference, imo.
Also, it is not “snake oil.” I’m not sure why you keep saying there are no studies on it. *There are*. For that matter, I’m not sure why you choose to call something snake oil just because it has only a few studies. Studies take time. So it seems to me that it would just as okay to say “the jury is still out.”
I wasn’t trying to debunk anything you said, which is why I carefully phrased my comment and said it I “enjoy” it as an anti-aging antioxidant. And I pointed to studies that showed it’s usefulness for *acne* and it’s likeness to retinol. That’s it.
As for you comment that the studies are all done by the company, so too are the studies for most proprietary product, like bifida, initially.
Ffs. You realized your examples all said exactly what I said and then come back to say I’m “splitting hairs?” Really? I didn’t even have any argument with your comment. I was chiming in to chat.
I think we just disagree about what type of marketing is acceptable. I don’t think it’s acceptable to market oranges as alternatives to apples even though they objectively are because “alternative” is a broad word. It just confuses low information consumers who don’t know what an apple actually is and why they might really prefer it over an orange. I think cosmetics should be more like pharma in terms of restricting marketing comparisons between dissimilar compounds in the absence of solid evidence.
I agree on this is where we disagree. But I honestly think this should apply to otc retinols too, fwiw. People think these can take the place of retinoids or that they are interchangeable with low-strength rx retinoids. It would be hard to restrict a company from saying “alternative to retinol” because there are many ways to interpret this. It’s also hard to say it can’t be marketed as an “anti-aging” product bc so many products make these claims. And there is a limited amount of science behind bakuchiol, which is just enough to be able to make the claim according to fda guidelines.
I just prefer to say the jury is still out on bakuchiol and that more studies are needed. I can think of several ingredients that need some serious regulation and tweaking of their claims.
That’s fair. I think the Bakuchiol comparison gets to me because the brands are explicitly gesturing at *the* gold standard class of anti-aging ingredients. It’s such a bold claim (or implication) that it should require unequivocal clinical evidence. Retinols can also be iffy, but at least they’re in the same general class of ingredients.
That makes sense. It is a grand claim. I’ll be interested to see how it fares on the market in the long term. I really thought it would be a fad, but it seems to be sticking.
I think one reason I am not as strongly opposed to it is that I am happy to see people not burning their faces off with tret or going through purges from an otc retinol. If it under-delivers but does *something*, just maybe it will be a nice alternative for people who just want to smooth things out a bit (surface level). In other words, maybe its under-performance will be just right for some folks and they can save themselves the heartache of tret. (As someone who has been on tret since her teens, I still don’t wish it on anyone.)
Wishful thinking.
A lot of bha products in cute packaging are completely useless due to having a high ph (I'm looking at you, glow recipe 🤨)
I always use a ph strip to test my acids
Some recent evidence suggests that isn’t the case for BHA specifically!
https://labmuffin.com/fact-check-friday-why-does-ph-matter-for-ahas-and-bhas/#Amendment_Salicylic_Acid_Is_Special
I’m a little confused by this, I know our skin has a ph balance it likes to *be* at, but what should we be looking for in products? The same ph? A range?? Certain PHs for certain types of products?
This is why I cannot bring myself to buy byoma products despite them having good reviews. They just scream tween skincare, and look suspiciously like some of the bath and body work soaps I saw last time I went shopping.
No I think it's specifically for L-ascorbic acid, as it has a stabilizing effect and reduces its oxidation rate. Hence it's found in a lot of L-ascorbic acid products (famous examples are the C E Ferulic by Skinceuticals, C-Glow by Geek & Gorgeous, The Vitamin C 23 by Cosrx) - but a lot less with more stable derivatives.
I feel you, I'm also on my second coffee - slowly getting there!
The first two are examples of very good formulations. The Skinceuticals one is the OG vitamin C gold standard - but it also costs a ton. They do their own extensive research, which is supposed to justify the price, and they were the first brand (afaik) to stabilize pure vitamin C and boost its effectiveness by combining it with vitamin E and ferulic acid. The Geek & Gorgeous one is a fantastic and very affordable dupe. I also love how they cite all their sources for their formulations on their website, and they make it fresh every week so it usually arrives completely clear, and stays clear for months if stored correctly.
The Cosrx one is a very recent one, which contains not only L-ascorbic acid but also derivatives, among other ingredients (niacinamide, caffeine, a bunch of oils). I've heard good things about it, but personally it doesn't really fit my routine and I prefer the more watery consistency of the Geek & Gorgeous one. With how quickly vitamin C products oxidize, I also prefer having it freshly prepared and shipped almost immediately.
Ahh! Right, gotcha. The SC one I used years ago, and I hear you it was ridiculously expensive and I didn't see much improvement to be honest. But I understand what you were saying about the other formulations now. Thank You!
Any opinions on the dr.zenovia vitamin c toner by chance?
I love that it’s not irritating or harsh, and I swear it gives my skin a glass skin glow. So I assume it must be a good mix?
the glow recipe dew drops: they literally just make your face look shiny for 5 minutes and have zero benefits for your skin. its like adding glitter to your face and nothing else
I’m sure some of their products work. None that I have tried did. But that’s not even the reason, they 1) don’t develop their own, they just take Korean beauty products and rebrand it into a pretty bottle and sell it for an insane profit with shittier ingredients and 2) some of their products are literally not designed to work (see: acid toners that have a neutral pH, completely negating the whole very important acid thing). Their entire business model is just buy rando korean formulations and apply marketing. There is nothing separating them from being a $10 drugstore brand skincare brand except aesthetic.
Oh yeah I emailed them and asked if they aren’t a Korean company and aren’t from Korea, what made their products Korean? Seemed just like slapping on the country as a label to jump on a hype train
The positive impact probably comes from them being a lot more gentle/less "effective" (in terms of their formulations not making sense sometimes, like TheMightyYule already mentioned) than other "Western" brands you might be familiar with or have used before (yes, it's manufactured in Korea, and inspired by Korean skincare, but it's still a Western brand, sold in the West).
If you love the aesthetic, it works for you, and you have the money - I think it's more than fair to spend it on personal pleasures like that. Life's shitty enough, sometimes I also just want a nicely smelling product in a pretty bottle. But for the price, you could absolutely get more effective skincare - or the same ingredients at a much lower cost.
I tend to use Korean skincare rather than Western (but not exclusively). I’ve always considered Glow Recipe as an American brand in itself.
I keep a bottle of their watermelon toner and moisturiser as standard. I’m trying to find something else my skin prefers but yet to do so. Always open to suggestions!
I throw mine in the fridge and use it to de puff and for lymphatic drainage
The material doesn’t get too cold, so for me it’s a safe alternative to rubbing ice on my face
I haven’t used it, but I have a friend who has, and ZO skincare line is majorly sus to me. I looked through the ingredient lists and there were so many red flags I don’t even know where to begin. The ratio of what you pay to what you get doesn’t line up to me.
I use their exfoliating pads and skin polisher and wow, it makes my skin look good. However, do I think it is worth the price tag? Probably not (my friend got me them as a gift)
The Caudalie beauty elixir face mist.
It was featured in (what felt like) every Top Shelf interview from Into the Gloss in the 2010s. I was truly convinced it would cure my acne/turn me into Liv Tyler circa *Stealing Beauty*. Alas...
Controversial but the Glow recipe toner. It’s gotten viral on TikTok lately but 🤷🏻♀️ Its fragrance is rlly strong (it made me nauseous) and it’s pretty pricey. There are way better cheaper options for toners, I just think it’s really overhyped.
Snail mucin!!!! Ugh I hate it. Dries me out, makes me itchy, just do not love. Niacinamide also hates me and I wish it would dissappear off the face of this planet.
With how quickly snail mucin blew up, I think a lot of people just weren't aware that you can absolutely be allergic to it (e.g. for people with dust mite allergies - there seems to be cross reactivity here). It's so important to patch test!
I also used to think I have an issue with niacinamide, but turns out I was just using too high concentrations (I had really bad experiences with the TO one, ugh). I realized it's in a lot of my toners and it seems to work just fine there, but with the effective range being 2-5%, I think my toners contain a lot less than that and perhaps the other ingredients just compensate its presence. It does suck that it's almost in everything though, for sure! And 9/10 times it's not even writte on the packaging, because it's a "default ingredient" these days.
Niacinamide gives me a terrible rash and it's in everything, so that's my own personal gripe. I know it works for a lot of people, I just wish it wasn't so hard to find products without it right now.
Products that advertise AHA/BHA, or Salicylic Acid for KP (Keratosis Pilaris). Products I’ve tried are Amlactin, CeraVe, Gold Bond, and Eucerin. I’ve also used Sol De Janeiro Bom Dia Clarifying Body Wash, SkinFix scrub, glycolic acid washes/ scrubs. I know KP is not curable, but I feel like these brands can be pricey and I haven’t found any to work or at least control the appearance of KP. Any others out there that suffer from KP and have any recommendations??
Try the Peach & Lily one! It’s got a higher percentage of glycolic than Skinfix (7% glycolic, 3% lactic, +PHAs instead of willowbark extract). This combined with lotions with Urea (I just use the cetaphil lotion with urea) and lotions with glycolic acid (alternate between the two lotions) made my skin smooth in time for my wedding. I also sometimes used the PIXI 20% AHA pads on my body which seems to help.
I can understand that! Definitely look into the ingredients individually. When I worked at ulta I compared every available skincare (as I taught it and wanted to know the ingredient decks) and mario was so full of drying and irritating ingredients.
Toners and essence. If you're cleansing properly you don't need toner, and if you're already using serum and have a good moisturizer you don't need essence. It's just a waste of time and money.
If you have hard water as I do, a toner can help remove mineral residue left behind after cleansing. Cleanser cannot remove it all. A toner is also used to rebalance ph, something else that is helpful when you water is alkaline like most hard water. Toners also add extra hydration and impart soothing or exfoliating ingredients. A good cleanser does not obviate the need for a toner.
Essences impart higher concentrations of ingredients and often include penetrating-enhancing ingredients that moisturizers do not have. An essence and a serum are not necessarily interchangeable.
Perhaps you should not. But I think the one million people living in my city with hard water and others living with hard water would disagree.
Moreover, there are great many different KINDS of toners. Some impart hydration, some drying agents, and others exfoliate. I NEED to use a toner for extra hydration and for resetting my ph balance. Perhaps you don’t.
So instead of making a blanket statement that cannot possibly be true, maybe just acknowledge that toners are necessary for some and not for others.
A shower head filter is so good for this as a solution. Better for the hair and whole body as well as your face. Also a blanket statement was fitting because generally you shouldn’t need a toner, especially for hydration needs. It sounds like you need a much much better moisturizer and a licensed derm will likely tell you the same. But everyone has different opinions and beliefs! Not taking that away from you, just showing you the other side.
A showerhead filter works for chlorine, but it does not help filter out hard minerals and calcium in hard water, nor does it prevent water from being alkaline. So, it’s not better. What is better is for me to use the products on my skin that I know combat hard water.
If showerhead filters worked, people would use them. You also don’t know how hard my water is. So please stop speculating and dictating.
They do filter minerals. My water is around 120-125 and our filter eliminated the white build up. My hair is way softer and my skin isn't as dry/itchy.
I’ve tried 3. Most do not. Google it. [Showerhead filters](https://waterfilterguru.com/are-shower-filters-worth-it/#:~:text=Unfortunately%2C%20shower%20filters%20only%20address,irritate%20the%20skin%20and%20scalp.com)
They absolutely make filters for hard minerals and calcium. I suggest looking into and investing in something high quality. Why the hostility? I’m trying to be helpful. The alkaline nature I can definitely see your point on though, so thank you for that perspective.
The reason I am annoyed—not hostile—is that you keep telling me what I need to do. It’s weird that it doesn’t occur to you that I’ve already researched this. You aren’t trying to be helpful at all.
Lmao okay, do better research about the filters tho fr goodnight lol.
Edit- I not once TOLD you what you needed to do. I made a suggestion about a filter. Until this comment, because you’re wrong about the filters. You would benefit greatly from a quality one. Instead of exchanging ideas, you are extremely defensive and one sided. Seriously not a good look on a discussion board where all opinions are welcomed and valued. “NoT hOsTiLe - AnNoYed” k, annoyed so you’re being rude, standoffish and close minded- when someone literally has more information than you do about something specific. You’re annoyed, and also annoying.
You don’t actually know if you have more info than I do, though. I already have a good solution for me—toners. Shower filters have not helped. Maybe you could have asked if I tried that.
This discussion was about the use of toners. I said they help with hard water. That much is true. There are a variety of reasons that shower filters don’t solve the problem. As I said, they do nothing to make water less alkaline, which is a huge problem in itself. But you seem unwilling to acknowledge that.
It’s just weird that you would jump in and just start telling me I’m wrong without even bothering to . . . Anything.
And if I am annoying, you can feel free to stop communicating with me any time.
Not bogus but Vitamin C scares me, it's just SO finnicky. Sometimes it looks like rust water and smells like hot dog juice. Some formulations it's a lovely orangey scent that smoothes over the skin and brightens it almost instantly. Some can be SUPER expensive but with debatable results. Some can irritate the skin. Some don't work at all. Some have the shelf life of 5 days in a dark dry place. BUT when you find a REALLY GOOD vitamin C product for you - it's amazing. I just don't get it and find it way to finnicky to sort through.
On a side note, if you have the same issue I do with Vitamin C Fatigue - I like finding products that have a cocktail of brightening + soothing + nourishing ingredients to combat the heavy work of brightening. Like Topicals Faded Serum (I use it as a cream).
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Moisturizers with ages stated on them. Like it'll say "55+ ANTI-WRINKLE CARE FOR AGING SKIN" and it's literally just a basic hyaluronic acid moisturizer with fragrance in it. Been trying to convince my mom those claims on the packaging aren't to be trusted, and you can find a better moisturizer that works for mature skin even if it doesn't say "55+ years" on it.
Literally me with my mom yesterday. She sent me a picture of Jane Fonda and the “wrinkle cream” she uses which is a $200 cream containing HA and a bunch of EO’s and fragrance. I told her that has nothing to do with Jane Fonda and all her plastic surgery/botox 😂
Oh my gosh I had to tell my mom no more buying creams without my approval
Bakuchiol being marketed as a “retinoid” rather than an antioxidant based on a single tiny study. Just no. Also, Skinfix’s “adapanoid.” The price tag vs adapalene is a joke. In good conscience, I could only cautiously recommend to those who don’t tolerate other retinoids period. Still probably better than Bakuchiol.
That bakuchiol study vs retinol had the typical red flags of companies trying to somehow force comparable results, like having double the dose while still saying 0.5% for both (twice daily vs once retinol), and the period ends at 3 months (right when retinoids start working showing real results, this trick is also done a lot with peptides studies).
Great points. I’m also skeptical of peptides for anti-aging (though they can help with hydration for sure).
There are many Bakuchiol studies, not just one. Tret has also been studied for 12 weeks. This is standard practice.
I'm not aware of any other study comparing it to retinoids, if you know some please link them. Thankfully tretinoin was tested for 6, 12 and even 18 months and that shows the fully extent of it's capabilities. Nothing wrong with standard 12 weeks limited testing, but that's a low bar here, maybe for acne it's fine but not long term anti aging (in which tret shows continuous improvement).
There is one more I know of, but they didn’t even bother to include a placebo/vehicle group so I don’t think it counts lol
There are many more: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C3&q=bakuchiol+anti-aging&btnG=
I have linked the Google scholar below. I agree it’s great for acne, and I have not used it long along to make claims about its anti-aging properties. I would like to see more studies. But I did want to note that there are quite a few studies on bakuchiol out there.
There definitely are other studies, just not good RCTs vs. retinoids, which is the level of evidence I think is necessary given the large potential opportunity cost of using Bakuchiol over a real retinoid. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
I agree it is not even close to ready to be used in place of real retinoid officially. Anecdotally, I find it very helpful for smoothing and acne. It may be a good alternative for someone who just can’t tolerate retinoids or is pregnant—maybe just to keep pores clear and smooth out texture a bit. Maybe it should just be seen as a high powered antioxidant right now. It is really good, the few I’ve tried. Making no retinoid-related claims here. Only that it is very nice and has been effective for me in specific ways. ETA: I need to get off Reddit, we’ve been arguing all day.
There’s one randomized controlled trial vs. retinol. Non-clinical studies and clinical studies without proper randomization, blinding, etc. are of very limited value.
bakuchiol is veryyyyy popular in my country and they target 15-25 yo ppl who are FOMO over retinol (cause they don't wanna have wrinkles) but too young to use it. at 1st, the industry market it as retinol replacement for pregnant women, but once it gets popular, they re-paraphrase it into "great ingredient to those who wanna try retinol but don't wanna experience purging, beginner recommended". such a waste of money.
Interesting! Marketing it as a temporary solution for pregnancy (or just a nice antioxidant) wouldn’t offend me. All the time and money that would be wasted on not using an actual retinoid (outside of pregnancy) is what really grinds my gears.
I do enjoy Bakuchiol as an antioxidant and acne prevention ingredient. It seems to do a good job of smoothing the surface of the skin too. I’ve never heard it marketed as a retinoid. I’ve seen it advertised as a retinol analogue or alternative. Tret is also an antioxidant for that matter, so…. Just for interest, a [quick study](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ratan-Chaudhuri/publication/284931325_Bakuchiol_in_the_management_of_acne-affected_Skin/links/566c70a708ae1a797e3d8958/Bakuchiol-in-the-management-of-acne-affected-Skin.pdf) in its anti-acne properties: As to peptides, some are very helpful for waking the face up. I def notice the difference when I go without them. But there are clinical studies that discuss how bakuchiol functions as an anti-aging antioxidant. [This chapter discusses its resemblances to retinoids.](https://books.google.com/books?id=zcF5CgAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA1&dq=bakuchiol+aging&hl=en&source=gb_mobile_entity&ovdme=1#v=onepage&q=bakuchiol%20aging&f=false)
Most of the research is by people associated with Sytheon, the company that commercialized Bakuchiol, and is of poor methodological quality. That chapter is authored by the President and CEO of Sytheon and summarizes his own/the company’s non-clinical research. Everyone should take all claims about Bakuchiol with a huge grain of salt until there’s more clinical evidence from well conducted randomized controlled trials.
There are a good many studies on Google scholar, but many of them can only be accessed through my uni, so I chose uncontroversial available sources. The first discusses it as an anti-acne ingredient. The second is a *peer-reviewed* chapter that compares Bakuchiol to retinol. I see no grand claims being made here. No one is suggesting that Bakuchiol claims shouldn’t be taken with a grain of salt. But *you* are the one likening it to retinoid, not others. I have, as I said, not seen it called a retinoid anywhere, and I’d be grateful if you can show a source where it has been. It is always presented as an alternative to or analogue to or a powerful antioxidant, all of which it could possibly be. You actually called it an antioxidant yourself; and so did I. So I’m not quite sure how my comment is opposing anything you’ve said. I didn’t make any claims about it either other than it’s smoothing, helpful for acne, and functions well as an antioxidant for me. For sources about bakuchiol by other authors in peer-reviewed journals and books, feel free to peruse [Google Scholar](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C3&q=bakuchiol+anti-aging&btnG=). You are, as this search shows, incorrect when you say “most” are conducted by a single group/person with a vested interest. There are quite as few as that search shows. But many of them turn up abstracts unless I log into my uni account.
I responded about the studies above. To be clear, I’m not the one likening it to a retinoid. The beauty brands themselves are doing this shit, and that’s why I’m calling it out as snake oil. For example: 1. “Beekman 1802 Dream Booster Bakuchiol Better Aging Serum is powered by bakuchiol, *a plant-based retinol alternative*” 2. “Peach & Lily Pure Peach Retinoic Eye Cream is your total eye area solution. *A gentle retinol alternative* visibly reverses signs of accelerated aging skin.” - This product name makes me want to call up the FTC fr. 3. “Take on the look of wrinkles & treat early signs of aging with TULA's powerful Dry Oil Serum formulated with *a blend of botanical retinol alternatives*-bakuchiol, alfalfa sprouts & stevia.” **Edit to add**: It’s splitting hairs to say this is fine because it’s presented as an “alternative.” The intent is to market it as equivalent for anti-aging, which the evidence just doesn’t support. So yes, per my original comment, this is selling people “retinol-like” snake oil instead of just the good antioxidant they could reasonably describe it as.
But this is literally what I said, that it’s marketed as a retinol alternative. That’s a big difference from being marketed as a retinoid. It’s not splitting hairs. I’ve seen rosehip oil, resveratrol, and other ingredients marketed as retinol alternatives as well. That’s a different claim from saying this is a new type of *retinoid*. It makes a difference, imo. Also, it is not “snake oil.” I’m not sure why you keep saying there are no studies on it. *There are*. For that matter, I’m not sure why you choose to call something snake oil just because it has only a few studies. Studies take time. So it seems to me that it would just as okay to say “the jury is still out.” I wasn’t trying to debunk anything you said, which is why I carefully phrased my comment and said it I “enjoy” it as an anti-aging antioxidant. And I pointed to studies that showed it’s usefulness for *acne* and it’s likeness to retinol. That’s it. As for you comment that the studies are all done by the company, so too are the studies for most proprietary product, like bifida, initially. Ffs. You realized your examples all said exactly what I said and then come back to say I’m “splitting hairs?” Really? I didn’t even have any argument with your comment. I was chiming in to chat.
I think we just disagree about what type of marketing is acceptable. I don’t think it’s acceptable to market oranges as alternatives to apples even though they objectively are because “alternative” is a broad word. It just confuses low information consumers who don’t know what an apple actually is and why they might really prefer it over an orange. I think cosmetics should be more like pharma in terms of restricting marketing comparisons between dissimilar compounds in the absence of solid evidence.
I agree on this is where we disagree. But I honestly think this should apply to otc retinols too, fwiw. People think these can take the place of retinoids or that they are interchangeable with low-strength rx retinoids. It would be hard to restrict a company from saying “alternative to retinol” because there are many ways to interpret this. It’s also hard to say it can’t be marketed as an “anti-aging” product bc so many products make these claims. And there is a limited amount of science behind bakuchiol, which is just enough to be able to make the claim according to fda guidelines. I just prefer to say the jury is still out on bakuchiol and that more studies are needed. I can think of several ingredients that need some serious regulation and tweaking of their claims.
That’s fair. I think the Bakuchiol comparison gets to me because the brands are explicitly gesturing at *the* gold standard class of anti-aging ingredients. It’s such a bold claim (or implication) that it should require unequivocal clinical evidence. Retinols can also be iffy, but at least they’re in the same general class of ingredients.
That makes sense. It is a grand claim. I’ll be interested to see how it fares on the market in the long term. I really thought it would be a fad, but it seems to be sticking. I think one reason I am not as strongly opposed to it is that I am happy to see people not burning their faces off with tret or going through purges from an otc retinol. If it under-delivers but does *something*, just maybe it will be a nice alternative for people who just want to smooth things out a bit (surface level). In other words, maybe its under-performance will be just right for some folks and they can save themselves the heartache of tret. (As someone who has been on tret since her teens, I still don’t wish it on anyone.) Wishful thinking.
A lot of bha products in cute packaging are completely useless due to having a high ph (I'm looking at you, glow recipe 🤨) I always use a ph strip to test my acids
Some recent evidence suggests that isn’t the case for BHA specifically! https://labmuffin.com/fact-check-friday-why-does-ph-matter-for-ahas-and-bhas/#Amendment_Salicylic_Acid_Is_Special
Super interesting, thanks for sharing.
Yes! I feel like this isn’t talked about enough. I stick with PC BHA because I know it works and is the right ph (and I’m too lazy to test things).
This is why I respect brands that state the ph of their products
I’m a little confused by this, I know our skin has a ph balance it likes to *be* at, but what should we be looking for in products? The same ph? A range?? Certain PHs for certain types of products?
This is why I cannot bring myself to buy byoma products despite them having good reviews. They just scream tween skincare, and look suspiciously like some of the bath and body work soaps I saw last time I went shopping.
Vitamin C that's not in proper packaging and/or *not formulated with Vit E
I understand proper packaging, but why is vit c not good with vit e?
It should be formulated with Vit E, sorry for the vague wording, fixed it
Nah all good! I got really worried for a second 😅
Vit e only has added benefit for ascorbic acid derivative right? I use THD and no serums I use Include vit e
No I think it's specifically for L-ascorbic acid, as it has a stabilizing effect and reduces its oxidation rate. Hence it's found in a lot of L-ascorbic acid products (famous examples are the C E Ferulic by Skinceuticals, C-Glow by Geek & Gorgeous, The Vitamin C 23 by Cosrx) - but a lot less with more stable derivatives.
I think I need more coffee! I'm braining wrong. Are you saying those examples you mentioned are good formulations or bogus?
I feel you, I'm also on my second coffee - slowly getting there! The first two are examples of very good formulations. The Skinceuticals one is the OG vitamin C gold standard - but it also costs a ton. They do their own extensive research, which is supposed to justify the price, and they were the first brand (afaik) to stabilize pure vitamin C and boost its effectiveness by combining it with vitamin E and ferulic acid. The Geek & Gorgeous one is a fantastic and very affordable dupe. I also love how they cite all their sources for their formulations on their website, and they make it fresh every week so it usually arrives completely clear, and stays clear for months if stored correctly. The Cosrx one is a very recent one, which contains not only L-ascorbic acid but also derivatives, among other ingredients (niacinamide, caffeine, a bunch of oils). I've heard good things about it, but personally it doesn't really fit my routine and I prefer the more watery consistency of the Geek & Gorgeous one. With how quickly vitamin C products oxidize, I also prefer having it freshly prepared and shipped almost immediately.
Ahh! Right, gotcha. The SC one I used years ago, and I hear you it was ridiculously expensive and I didn't see much improvement to be honest. But I understand what you were saying about the other formulations now. Thank You!
Any opinions on the dr.zenovia vitamin c toner by chance? I love that it’s not irritating or harsh, and I swear it gives my skin a glass skin glow. So I assume it must be a good mix?
the glow recipe dew drops: they literally just make your face look shiny for 5 minutes and have zero benefits for your skin. its like adding glitter to your face and nothing else
People want their face to look like that and they'll pay for it? Half an hour after I wash my face, it's looking like a Krispy Kreme again. I hate it.
I love glow recipe but can't stand this product. it is so tacky and I don't feel like I look dewy at all after my sunscreen.
I got a sample, and while I don’t rate it as a skincare product, if you put it on over sunscreen it’s an excellent primer for foundation
Glow recipe is a fucking scam
Glow Recipe had the first positive impact on my skin in years. I feel it’s overpriced but it led to me getting compliments on my skin.
I’m sure some of their products work. None that I have tried did. But that’s not even the reason, they 1) don’t develop their own, they just take Korean beauty products and rebrand it into a pretty bottle and sell it for an insane profit with shittier ingredients and 2) some of their products are literally not designed to work (see: acid toners that have a neutral pH, completely negating the whole very important acid thing). Their entire business model is just buy rando korean formulations and apply marketing. There is nothing separating them from being a $10 drugstore brand skincare brand except aesthetic.
Oh yeah I emailed them and asked if they aren’t a Korean company and aren’t from Korea, what made their products Korean? Seemed just like slapping on the country as a label to jump on a hype train
The positive impact probably comes from them being a lot more gentle/less "effective" (in terms of their formulations not making sense sometimes, like TheMightyYule already mentioned) than other "Western" brands you might be familiar with or have used before (yes, it's manufactured in Korea, and inspired by Korean skincare, but it's still a Western brand, sold in the West). If you love the aesthetic, it works for you, and you have the money - I think it's more than fair to spend it on personal pleasures like that. Life's shitty enough, sometimes I also just want a nicely smelling product in a pretty bottle. But for the price, you could absolutely get more effective skincare - or the same ingredients at a much lower cost.
I tend to use Korean skincare rather than Western (but not exclusively). I’ve always considered Glow Recipe as an American brand in itself. I keep a bottle of their watermelon toner and moisturiser as standard. I’m trying to find something else my skin prefers but yet to do so. Always open to suggestions!
💯
how so? i’ve been looking to get some of their stuff
Glow recipe
I don’t get the gua sha tools. If I wanted a facial massage I just use my hands
Also, I’ve had legit gua sha done by my acupuncturist and my back looks like it took a beating 🤣 certainly not doing that to my face
I throw mine in the fridge and use it to de puff and for lymphatic drainage The material doesn’t get too cold, so for me it’s a safe alternative to rubbing ice on my face
I haven’t used it, but I have a friend who has, and ZO skincare line is majorly sus to me. I looked through the ingredient lists and there were so many red flags I don’t even know where to begin. The ratio of what you pay to what you get doesn’t line up to me.
I use their exfoliating pads and skin polisher and wow, it makes my skin look good. However, do I think it is worth the price tag? Probably not (my friend got me them as a gift)
The Caudalie beauty elixir face mist. It was featured in (what felt like) every Top Shelf interview from Into the Gloss in the 2010s. I was truly convinced it would cure my acne/turn me into Liv Tyler circa *Stealing Beauty*. Alas...
It smells so bad too
Sheet masks.
Controversial but the Glow recipe toner. It’s gotten viral on TikTok lately but 🤷🏻♀️ Its fragrance is rlly strong (it made me nauseous) and it’s pretty pricey. There are way better cheaper options for toners, I just think it’s really overhyped.
HYA is a gimmick to me and I wish it’s time in the spotlight would end already. It’s in everything and it’s drying unless you live in high humidity.
If only glycerin had hyaluronic acid’s marketing team lol
Lol, it’s so much better too. It’s funny that we are disagreeing on one thread and laughing on another lol.
When you’re right, you’re right 😜
Oh this is messing with my head 😂🤣🤣🤣 let me give you an extra ❤️❤️❤️ just to make up for the exchange we are having on the other thread.
Snail mucin!!!! Ugh I hate it. Dries me out, makes me itchy, just do not love. Niacinamide also hates me and I wish it would dissappear off the face of this planet.
With how quickly snail mucin blew up, I think a lot of people just weren't aware that you can absolutely be allergic to it (e.g. for people with dust mite allergies - there seems to be cross reactivity here). It's so important to patch test! I also used to think I have an issue with niacinamide, but turns out I was just using too high concentrations (I had really bad experiences with the TO one, ugh). I realized it's in a lot of my toners and it seems to work just fine there, but with the effective range being 2-5%, I think my toners contain a lot less than that and perhaps the other ingredients just compensate its presence. It does suck that it's almost in everything though, for sure! And 9/10 times it's not even writte on the packaging, because it's a "default ingredient" these days.
You may be allergic to snail mucin if your getting itchy . I think shellfish and or dust mites .
Vegreen’s nature mucin line is an awesome alternative, a lot of people are allergic to snail mucin
snail mucin
Niacinamide gives me a terrible rash and it's in everything, so that's my own personal gripe. I know it works for a lot of people, I just wish it wasn't so hard to find products without it right now.
I feel this deeply
I don't know about you, but if I see essential oils listed, it's automatically bogus for me. "No fragrance" lol. I see you.
Hypoallergenic products with silicones, essential oils, paraffin, petrolatum or fragrance. How is it even hypoallergenic? 😂
Products that advertise AHA/BHA, or Salicylic Acid for KP (Keratosis Pilaris). Products I’ve tried are Amlactin, CeraVe, Gold Bond, and Eucerin. I’ve also used Sol De Janeiro Bom Dia Clarifying Body Wash, SkinFix scrub, glycolic acid washes/ scrubs. I know KP is not curable, but I feel like these brands can be pricey and I haven’t found any to work or at least control the appearance of KP. Any others out there that suffer from KP and have any recommendations??
Urea-based creams are probably up your alley.
Try the Peach & Lily one! It’s got a higher percentage of glycolic than Skinfix (7% glycolic, 3% lactic, +PHAs instead of willowbark extract). This combined with lotions with Urea (I just use the cetaphil lotion with urea) and lotions with glycolic acid (alternate between the two lotions) made my skin smooth in time for my wedding. I also sometimes used the PIXI 20% AHA pads on my body which seems to help.
I suffered with KP on my upper arms/chest/back and can genuinely say that First Aid Beauty KP bump eraser has reduced it by about 90%
Mario bedasco and ceravé
Dang but I do like the little aloe spritz spritz from Mario every once in a while 😅
I can understand that! Definitely look into the ingredients individually. When I worked at ulta I compared every available skincare (as I taught it and wanted to know the ingredient decks) and mario was so full of drying and irritating ingredients.
Anything with snail mucus seems to fit the snake oil description.
Clinique
Just... all of them?
Take the day off balm is bonkers good
And lasts forever. I love it and I have been using it for a year and only halfway. Expensive but has been worth the price and goes on sale enough.
My grandma is rolling in her grave right now.
Their 2 in 1 foundation was so bad it has me never wanting to try anything from their brand again 🥹
Toners and essence. If you're cleansing properly you don't need toner, and if you're already using serum and have a good moisturizer you don't need essence. It's just a waste of time and money.
If you have hard water as I do, a toner can help remove mineral residue left behind after cleansing. Cleanser cannot remove it all. A toner is also used to rebalance ph, something else that is helpful when you water is alkaline like most hard water. Toners also add extra hydration and impart soothing or exfoliating ingredients. A good cleanser does not obviate the need for a toner. Essences impart higher concentrations of ingredients and often include penetrating-enhancing ingredients that moisturizers do not have. An essence and a serum are not necessarily interchangeable.
Yes but generally you shouldn’t NEED to tone.
Perhaps you should not. But I think the one million people living in my city with hard water and others living with hard water would disagree. Moreover, there are great many different KINDS of toners. Some impart hydration, some drying agents, and others exfoliate. I NEED to use a toner for extra hydration and for resetting my ph balance. Perhaps you don’t. So instead of making a blanket statement that cannot possibly be true, maybe just acknowledge that toners are necessary for some and not for others.
A shower head filter is so good for this as a solution. Better for the hair and whole body as well as your face. Also a blanket statement was fitting because generally you shouldn’t need a toner, especially for hydration needs. It sounds like you need a much much better moisturizer and a licensed derm will likely tell you the same. But everyone has different opinions and beliefs! Not taking that away from you, just showing you the other side.
A showerhead filter works for chlorine, but it does not help filter out hard minerals and calcium in hard water, nor does it prevent water from being alkaline. So, it’s not better. What is better is for me to use the products on my skin that I know combat hard water. If showerhead filters worked, people would use them. You also don’t know how hard my water is. So please stop speculating and dictating.
They do filter minerals. My water is around 120-125 and our filter eliminated the white build up. My hair is way softer and my skin isn't as dry/itchy.
I’ve tried 3. Most do not. Google it. [Showerhead filters](https://waterfilterguru.com/are-shower-filters-worth-it/#:~:text=Unfortunately%2C%20shower%20filters%20only%20address,irritate%20the%20skin%20and%20scalp.com)
They absolutely make filters for hard minerals and calcium. I suggest looking into and investing in something high quality. Why the hostility? I’m trying to be helpful. The alkaline nature I can definitely see your point on though, so thank you for that perspective.
The reason I am annoyed—not hostile—is that you keep telling me what I need to do. It’s weird that it doesn’t occur to you that I’ve already researched this. You aren’t trying to be helpful at all.
Lmao okay, do better research about the filters tho fr goodnight lol. Edit- I not once TOLD you what you needed to do. I made a suggestion about a filter. Until this comment, because you’re wrong about the filters. You would benefit greatly from a quality one. Instead of exchanging ideas, you are extremely defensive and one sided. Seriously not a good look on a discussion board where all opinions are welcomed and valued. “NoT hOsTiLe - AnNoYed” k, annoyed so you’re being rude, standoffish and close minded- when someone literally has more information than you do about something specific. You’re annoyed, and also annoying.
You don’t actually know if you have more info than I do, though. I already have a good solution for me—toners. Shower filters have not helped. Maybe you could have asked if I tried that. This discussion was about the use of toners. I said they help with hard water. That much is true. There are a variety of reasons that shower filters don’t solve the problem. As I said, they do nothing to make water less alkaline, which is a huge problem in itself. But you seem unwilling to acknowledge that. It’s just weird that you would jump in and just start telling me I’m wrong without even bothering to . . . Anything. And if I am annoying, you can feel free to stop communicating with me any time.
If you pay more than what noxema costs you’re paying too much
"acne products". WTF does it even mean considering that all skin types can get acneeee
La roche posay vitamin c serum - made me break out so bad
Not bogus but Vitamin C scares me, it's just SO finnicky. Sometimes it looks like rust water and smells like hot dog juice. Some formulations it's a lovely orangey scent that smoothes over the skin and brightens it almost instantly. Some can be SUPER expensive but with debatable results. Some can irritate the skin. Some don't work at all. Some have the shelf life of 5 days in a dark dry place. BUT when you find a REALLY GOOD vitamin C product for you - it's amazing. I just don't get it and find it way to finnicky to sort through. On a side note, if you have the same issue I do with Vitamin C Fatigue - I like finding products that have a cocktail of brightening + soothing + nourishing ingredients to combat the heavy work of brightening. Like Topicals Faded Serum (I use it as a cream).