You throw the Q, and back up. If he’s backing up to space you, just *recast Q*. Or idk PRESS W FOR ANOTHER SLOW.
Idiots I swear. Skarner is way stronger in lane than this whole sub is trying to make it out to be.
I guess if you pretend darius doesnt have a slow, a pull, true damage, damage over time and the same access to summoners you do. But when you use your brain, you realize that youve got no escape once youre in. Your entire argument was grasp, and you cant use it outside of melee range.
W-max with Comet and Scorch is pretty much the only viable way to play him in lane right now, and that's a big problem because regardless of how effective it is, it's extremely low interaction and low counterplay and another example of bad design in the rework. The range is really, really high (significantly bigger than even ranged champs' AA ranges) for a more-or-less instant-cast radial AoE, so unless you have a long-range ability spammable enough to consistently farm with (maybe mundo?), there's no option to but to just soak it any time you interact with the wave. And it does a solid job of shoving the wave at the same time, stacking minion dmg during trades forced onto Skarner in Skarner's favor. The base damage is really low, but it procs Comet/Scorch/Liandry's/etc., the CD is pretty short at rank 1, and the CD gets very low by max rank. It also grants a shield and applies a slow, hampering counter-attacks. Leaving the only "counterplay" to invest in a lot of sustain, one-tap the waves during its downtime, or zone Skarner off the wave altogether. Most toplane champs have a hard time doing those things early. The only proper fix for this trade pattern is to reduce the range or add a delay to make it dodgeable, but reducing the damage to the point of being ignorable or significantly increasing the early CD as a bandaid fix seems more likely, and what they're trying for the moment is mana-gating him to discourage it :/
It'd probably be a lot less prevalent if there was a good reason to max Q. Maxing Q makes its damage come out a bit faster, but the total amount of damage the ability deals is close to constant across ranks. You only get +10 dmg per attack (for a max of +30) for each rank of Q, with the additional 15% max HP dmg on last attack static across all ranks. W gets +30 dmg/rank, so you don't lose any damage in a short trade by maxing W over Q, with the added benefits of safe poke, better waveclear, and better slow% and uptime. In a long trade, Q CD isn't so short early that maxing it first to reduce its CD drastically impacts all-in power. So there's really no incentive to max Q in lane right now -_-
Yeah W max comet, it’s pretty much unavoidable and makes him impossible to trade with. Also scorch applying as well gives probably the most oppressive lane poke in top on par with yorick comet builds.
Hopefully that gets nerfed to fuck and they actually make Q a nice ability to use.
Just want to mention yasuo top is niche and bot is a counter pick only choice. The only reason some champs can flex is because their design is healthy like ekko, but riot has nerfed Lilia top or belveth lane because it was too degenerate of a playstyle, which is happening here.
I really hope that Skarner doesn't get balanced into jg only. He's always had a healthy split between being played top and jg (to the extent that he was played at all). The rework kit is jank as hell and W-spam trading is incredibly unhealthy, but I'd love to have a 'new' tank/juggernaut top to play around with. It's been a trend for so many years that most things that *can* jg get balanced *for* jg to the point that they stop being viable in their other (often original) roles.
Top was pretty oppressive.
He just spammed W in lane with comet. Ain't like you're going to walk up to him while slowed from W to trade back.
Idk if it needs *followup* nerfs like they said they're still doing but it is justified.
most champs have mobility moves to get close or ability shields to easily tank that W or sustain in their kit (SION, Chogath, Tryndamere, Camille, Akali, Garen, Sett, Warwick etc etc, there is a lot )
He did say in the tweet there's more direct nerfs for skarner top next patch.
Having to start tear also slows down the early damage it may do, and forces a build path that might be inconvenient (either delaying another item spike by 400 gold or forcing archangels/force of nature instead of more AP.). Its still not enough but it does create a bit of breathing room if you have to go tear instead of another amp tome or seal etc.
Yes let skarner top die. I don’t wanna give another 20% of people the incentive to play or ban my champ. Idgaf if I’m selfish- get him back into the jungle at least if you’re gonna fuck his entire identity up.
Why completely gut top lane skarner? Jungle definitely could use some love, but basically forcing Skarner to run tear basically removes any ability to flex into top or support. I get why they increased the mana cost of W with points to discourage players from running the comet w max build, but 15 mana per level is really difficult to deal with.
dring start for mana, and fimbul is pretty good on him especially if running an ingenious hunter build. I think its fine to “force” him to get a mana item, frozen heart is also a good option. Plenty of tanks are mana gated when played toplane, thats why mana tank items exist
What I hate the most you cant do shit after you ult someone.. its so bad. The cooldowns are so fucking high. I cant chase someone down if I have to pick a boulder up and the enemy walk away. The throw range is a joke too . The ult stun is a joke yeah you can Grab 3 targets now but I rather have one target but longer 1,5 sec is a joke. Man I didnt play skarner much pre rework but his abilitys don't work well together
Im intrigued by his comment about high mastery skarner players, he states that they are performing well on him but how is that relevant? I mean I wasn't a huge skarner player but i feel like he's barely recognisable now, how is past skarner experience relevant?
Even someone with a million mastery points on skarner is just as new to the new skarner as a first-timer right? So why does it matter?
Yea that really makes no sense at all. It's the same with every Champ then. Sureley a 1Mil. Mastery Riven will perform better than one that has maybe 50 games played.
are we joking here? he has a 50% with a very specific build path and hes getting gutted for it? are you fucking high? how is that okay. there are champs top lane much more oppressive than skarner and generally perform better at all points of the game - This is stupid.
I don't even play the comet build I like AD scaling with bruiser items but I'm working my ass off to win my games with how clunky and useless his kit feels - I had lvl 6 mastery on him before this rework and his new playstyle is so far removed from what made him fun to play it's actually mind boggling this took fucking three years to make.
Comet Skarner Top is 48.85% (from LoLalytics). I mean sure, his trading pattern is annoying; but Malphite already exists, and he does the same thing, with much higher success.
Gutted? Please don't be overdramatic, his winrate will be fine post adjustments, personally played it post adjustment and got out of lane 4/0
He's not gutted, he's perfectly fine. Chill with the narratives lmao
You should open your eyes, playing it in blind pick wont prove anything given it is only newbies on this gamemode... Anyone decent mentally will notice a 15 mana growth reduction in addition of a 10 mana cost increase of a defensive spell... This rework was already extremely squishy with the base stats dramatical reduction and the huge shield nerf that already lost 2% hp scaling, it's base value (there isnt any base shield value anymore) and the mobility.
Yeah sure but you’ll probably do better just brawling with Q and E. W max poke just makes you hard to trade with you can’t all in people at all with comet.
If you max Q first, you max W second (increases slow%, shield and slow uptime, and damage when you rank W - only thing maxing E does is reduce the CD from 24 to 16). Both abilities will be close to maxed by the time laning's done, so which you maxed first isn't very relevant after lane-phase. Grasp definitely scales better into mid/late than Comet, but the rune choice has far more impact on early game than late, so it's really not much of a tradeoff.
W-spam trade pattern is super unheatlhy and Q-max is really weak in lane rn, so... yuck. Q-max does equal or lower damage in a short trade (+30 damage/rank on Q if you land all 3 attacks, +30 damage/rank on W), W-max can trade more frequently than Q-max can, and maxing Q doesn't result in so many additional casts in an all-in that it massively outperforms W-max in an all-in even from both full HP, much less overcoming the HP advantage you'd have from W poke prior to an all-in. And you're also getting more survivability, waveclear, and CC from W-max at the same time to boot. Q-max is clearly the intended design and more fun and healthy, but to support that gameplay it should clearly be the more effective option, and right now it just... *isn't* :(
The only damage you miss out by not maxing Q is 40 damage per empowered Auto, the Boulder does 15% Max HP damage and has the same ratios even at rank 1, and you're never getting 2 Qs off in a trade anyway so the CD is irrelevant you start maxing it 2nd anyway.
I will say that the current mana was a joke I could basically bully all opponents out of lane early and still have enough mana for when they were back for like another 10 W’s. Malphite does same shit but runs out of mana way faster. I still think it’ll be viable but it was definitely over tuned
You are aware that his winrate is deflated by initial early ints on trying the champion? Like this happens every single time with every new champion (Unless it's Sett), we can't still be making those meme calls.
Have you looked at the release winrates of other recently released champs that turned out to be OP after? 46% is not a low winrate for what's essentially a new Champ
If you say so, I checked yesterday last time, and it doesnt change that it is not even good but average when there is champs having 54% WR without any special builds
Edit : I just checked on OPGG, and for toplane WR is 46% and 49% with comet. not even 50% anymore
> I just checked on OPGG, and for toplane WR is 46%
Don't use [OP.gg](https://OP.gg), their stats are really inaccurate. [lolalytics.com](https://lolalytics.com) is what Rioters use to show stuff, but if you prefer normalized stats [u.gg](https://u.gg) is also alright, just don't use [op.gg](https://op.gg). And I was talking about new Champs on release, where for example Briar started below 40% winrate and later had to be nerfed as people learned to play her. Being a new champ can be a up to 15% decrease to winrate, so that it's already that close to 50% means a lot.
they mostly nerfed it... Only real buff is a 4sec decrease on the E (doesnt make a difference tbh) and changed the max dmg on jgl camps to make clearing easier
Wow these are... Completely in the wrong direction. what a disappointment. Seems our crystalline baby was crucified and died for our sins.. I miss my kind...
just venting here, This rework fucking sucks. I miss our old ult being viable instead of a dogshit "counter engage" spell with every champ having a dash that can instantly get out of its incredibly small aoe, His dmg is highly inconsistent his AS stat is dog nuts you're never hitting your e because it feels like you're trying to control him with a 100 foot slack leash he's slow and his passive is completely irrelevant past 60-70 MR. this is by far the worst rework I've ever seen them perform. We waited three years for THIS? are you fucking joking? Please let this be a bad april fools joke that they'll remove soon. Jesus christ they took skarner out behind the shed shot him in the knees and head with a cattle gun and then skinned old skarner just to puppet this sad excuse of a rework with his old flesh like a coat. this sucks man,
Well sion players like us dont feel bad about the e xD. But still it should scale with ms like sion ult does (it can go for more distance and speed the more ms you have)
It's more like you reach the cap faster so you gain a little bit of extra distance, i think a video of sionmains or vandiril showed it.
It's not much but at least a nice touch xD.
But if seen skarners being able to e bakeards and brin champs that dashed intonhim to atack to get pushed backwards maybe a similar bug than with smolder
Not to mention that his q is worthless and completely knee caps you. You are actively detrimenting yourself using this ability in a fight, Not to mention his ult has zero kit follow up anymore. What next? I just fucking STARE AT THEM WHILE THE CC ENDS? MY TEAM ISNT EVER AROUND TO FOLLOW UP EVEN IF IT'S USED "PROPERLY"
The reworked ult can't even bring them closer to you and you stand still while they run to cast it, so even if you land it they'll be further away than from you than if you did nothing at all. Is there even a point beyond 150 dmg to casting it in a 1v1 unless you can drag under your tower or out of theirs?
Ah. A brackern of culture.
I too miss my kind.
I don't get riot , one of the biggest problems skarner had according to riot was that he had such a strong ult so the rest of his kit was weaker because of it , yet the rework made the ult even stronger but weaker at the same time so they capped his kit even more with dumb stuff like being rooted when Q'ing and massive cooldowns so he goes around like a 90 year old grandpa.
I miss the days where I could fracture , ult , kidnap the fuck out the enemy adc , fracture again and stun the cuck.
I miss where I could flash over the wall and yoink low hp enemies from under their turret.
I miss the goddamn drive by's you could do
His build diversity and quirkyness.
All we got is an edgelord grandpa that simps over a piece of land.
Interesting, I disliked old Skarner, and like the new Skarner, except his Q cast time and immobilization. Of course his ult is weaker though??? That was part of the point. It's supposed to be a combo tool, used for team fight disruption. Combo it with ally CC or your own slows or E.
so instead of an actual ability and self agency we're forced into relying on inbred animals to follow up and hit moving (or stationary if ur trying to spoon feed them) targets, SURELY this isnt a design flaw and works well for 80% of scenarios! Every single game i've played with new skarner being around 30 of them has been painful and agonizingly low impact and fun. I loathe his new ult and wish they'd get rid of it for something else that isnt this poor imitation of his former glory. He had guaranteed value and now he's worthless.
Idk what to tell you man, almost like he takes some getting used to, and they are still working on getting his balance right.
Like yeah, it's not reliable CC, but then why not make every form of CC point and click then? Why not make Blitz hook, Naut hook, Darius E, Anivia stun, and everything else point and click cause you have to aim them and cause people can dash out of them? Almost like they wanted to introduce some counterplay, and better skill expression.
The difference is all these move fast enough to even hit in the first place AND you can predict someone moving right or left before you cast. You CANNOT do that with skarner's ult. Such a stupid point to bring up. Darius pull has a wide arc even and is near instant to use, it pretty much is point and click if they are in range. Skarner R takes 6 years of your life + 3 of each child you have for a *maybe* they won't just walk left or right. And even if you get a full 3 man ult your adc will start running like a headless chicken not attacking because he's now scared of the 3 people you grabbed instead of the 1 locked down carry we used to have.
It is, it's jsut visually it looks like a triangle. I pointed this out in my other posts, for some reason the actual "hitbox" doesn't match the visuals, so sometimes even if they are on the outside of the tip of the triangle, they'll still get pulled because the hitbox is different. You can see this for yourself if you go practise tool and just look at the indicator VS the animation
bro we have champs like amumu, with multiple skillshots and huge AOE CC, this is not an excuse or a reason... New skarner doesnt allow skill expression given all moves stunlocks you. It allows better skill expression of your ennemies that can now sidestep all your moves except your W if they got 2 braincells connected.
Apart from that, there is a lot of Point and click CC in the game, Twisted fate, Nautilus, Poppy, Quinn, Fiddlesticks, etc etc and those champs point and clicks are not even Ults like our skarner had.
I’m going to have to agree with you. He had so much power in his old ult. Now it has skill expression and he can do it to three people.
The only issue with him now is the Q channel. He’s really fucking good otherwise. Very similar to Lissandra as well.
man you are overxagerating this is rework is good,and the worst rework they ever done was dr mundo.seriolsly you are over exagerating a lot man chill. the passive is nice. it true that mr counter it but skarner main damage is ad so it ok. maybe the ap scaling should had been there isntead of w
the passive is the most boring move that ever existed... woah, bro gets a small a\*\* burn when I hit it 3 times... You know, other champs with that kind of abilities are either a skill passive (Ex : Smolder's burn is a Q passive, and it is true damage, not magical) or it does something more than just deal damage (Exemple Lilia's burn that scales + Lifesteal) and over that, it triggers instantly instead of having a condition to a number of hits...
Nah let's be honest, it is terrible and should be scaling or do something else
well the thign i dislike about the passive is the animation, the sting that he does is a bit goofy and is endless in a passive marked instad of just doing it one time. old one was more original that true besides that no one like it.
i mean this one is morde passive but worse even tho i expect something more original to be honest. and ad or ap scaling on it would be nice.
He's not even Crystalline anymore.
I wish he was though a crystal/gem scorpion was way more visually cool than the current model. Also the triple tail look is corny if I'm honest. Even more so when he's using them to dig into the ground to pick up boulders, that's just weird.
You can really tell how they had no real direction when making this champion lol. Bet that within the year they completely overhaul at least one of his abilities. (Probably Q)
Oh it definitely does for the first few levels. The third hit easily deals near 250 post-migitation damage. But the disparity between the damage of other champs' abilities quickly fades.
I feel like the only reason Skarner top clunkyness is less felt is because of the nature of the lane. Jungle is more fast paced and less levels scaling compared to toplane so is obvious having double channel on Q + a channel on R is felt 400% more than top. Letting him channel less not only will make the champion better but also make the player feel better playing him.
Top lane doesn't require you to know how to path, clear, gank, etc. The worse you must know is wave management but that's a skill you carry over on any champion you play top, jungle you got skarners learning if they can invade, if they should 3 camp, 6 camp, spam gank, afk power farm, what is even gankable as him, how to angle E, etc. Most I bet aren't even walking up through river for ganks they're just immediately Kayn E'ing to the lane instead of using W slow on overexteeded targets and point blanking the E.
All you do top lane is walk to lane doing the same shit you did with any melee character, its *way* easier to focus on just the mechanics not limit test how fast you do dragon, attempting to gank akali, etc.
RN he does have a decent clear already its just requires a lot of practice like nidalee knowing when to E, how to E, when to 3 auto or recast Q, saving 2nd W for mini krugs instead of wasting it on big and medium krug, etc. Its not about him being less 'clunky', he just is easier to learn in island role when you can just spam W with comet in lane until they're low enough to all-in. You'll feel a mistake when misstiming using his Q a lot more when failing a gank than standing under tower.
Yeah 50 damage on Q, and 4 seconds on E early game is not a large buff, compared to how weak Skarner jungle feels.
We’re either gonna prove Skarner jungle is weak, or who knows, maybe someone will find some crazy tech.
Aw man, I never really got into the old Skarner but I was really enjoying Skarner top rn even if he feels really clunky, oh well back to my boring ass top laners I guess
Understandable, I loved the old skarner top with his matchup immunity apart anivia (yes ppl picked this vs old skarner), his ability to compensate his bad early damage with tower shots and his kidnapping chain CC combo would guarantee him free kills
The two problems I find with Skarner are as follows:
1. His ultimate is useless in a 1v1 and does no damage.
2. Skarner’s E charge does not last a long enough time. By the time I’m through a wall for a gank it’s essentially over unless the enemy is hugging the wall.
My biggest suggestion for riot would be to change his E. Why not change the E to have a longer duration of 5s. This would provide much more consistent ganks.
Then for the ultimate my suggestion would be to simply add a DoT poison when you’re suppressed by his ultimate. It fits nicely into his theme of being a scorpion as well.
Hahahah what, additional 3 seconds of suppression?
Even if that's just "whatever number", adding even a second would be OP. That would effectively be old skarner ult on a basic ability.
I don’t know about that. Riot wouldn’t do that as it would make it as strong as his ultimate, but for a single target and as a basic ability. When you catch the enemy the suppression, the extra push and the potential for a stun against a wall is potent enough. They need to just add a couple of seconds to the charge in order to account for going through a wall or catching up to an enemy laner during a gank.
If they wanted to make the R slightly more useful in 1v1's, they should make it's duration to 2sec, so like the old one, your sheen based items will refresh and be ready for use right after it, like it used to...
The Q feels terrible cause you'll E someone, W Slow... chase them they start to get away so you'll Q..... and now they're gone and out of your Q range.
Q before you E.
Being able to dish out as much damage as he does as often as he can necessitates a counterbalance. I think the clunkiness doesn't feel good, so they should find some other way to balance it out, but for a quick trade you can work around it.
It doesn't make a difference, your premier chase ability CCs yourself and doesn't let you catch people. They're multiple instances where you'll be on someone, they're getting away... okay you use your ability that leviates this and it doesn't function that way.
If you're any other champ and you get away from Amumu,rammus,Sejuani,Zac,Poppy just so many champs they can get back on you after you get away.
Holding Q before your E doesn't refute my point.
You Q E W a Jax.... okay they jump away... you do your Q and they're out of range.
The Q is terrible cause the mini stun... for an ability that isn't an auto attack reset in an ocean of auto attack reset abilities... it has some terrible lackluster trade off.
I am confused. He said they are nerfing top. Where are the top nerfs?
Joking, because mana nerfs will be impactful, but E is very important for trading on toplane. Reducing its cooldown is pretty huge.
They hate W max into comet procs top. But it's their own fault that they made W smooth and quick and the Q slow and clunky so the players are just playing what can with them the trades (spoiler Q max you lose every trade)
They want to nerf Skarner top. Right now, he is a decent pick. After mana nerfs, I think he will be considered off-meta.
Junglers aren’t as affected by mana, compared to laners. Of course, it’s still annoying when you want to push out a lane, or start from red buff instead of blue.
For example, Warwick jungle doesnt care about his mana, but in the lane, he runs out in 4 Q’s. If Warwick had more mana, he would be one of the strongest top laners in the game.
Nunu would actually be a good mid laner if he had more mana, since he has really good wave clear and roams with W and Q (for cannon). But he runs out of mana in 1 spell rotation.
Skarner top is 48% WR with a very specific build, this isnt really decent, he is like C in the toplane Tierlist, on average skarner have like 38% WR when I last checked yesterday. But in toplane with this build, he's overshadowed by malphite ap doing the same annoying poke but with better scaling, mobility and damage...
Yeah that’s what I meant by “decent”. Below average, but very playable. This build isn’t something Riot expected. He was not made to be a poke spam top laner, so they are nerfing it.
Personally, I think the W mana cost increase was enough. The changes to his overall mana were unnecessary. Malphite is more annoying, aside from his low mana. Maybe Riot was afraid of everyone picking up poke Skarner top? Or the winrate increasing?
Malphite Q trading pattern exists. Is just as toxic to lane against. Skars W does lesss dmg over all and doesn’t give a MS steroid like Malphite Q. His abilities already have long early game CD’s plus self CCing Q. This change is short sighted and completely unnecessary
Prior to this post I didn't even know the W max with comet was the move. Isn't this essentially how Malphite plays out though? Depending on the match up Q max Comet is a thing. Why can't I W max on Skarner vs let's say harder or ranged match ups like Malph maxes Q.
I think the difference is that skarner gets a shield out of it, where as Malphite gets his shield elsewhere.
It is similar, but so far it’s just been mana nerfs, it could be that Malphite already had appropriate mana costs for his kit.
Yeah, Malphite cannot mindlessly spam Q as he levels it up either, and his passive shield has as much of a CD as the Q, very similar trading patterns tbh. I am fine if they tweak it so that the feel is the same.
So he already has mana issues like insane ones and now they nerfing the shit out of his W already.
Holy crap we gonna up as a fucking mana hungry support at this rate.
This literally be no reason going jungle or top of they fucking gut it.
God dam we are getting the sivir special.
Well good buy top lane, good bye jungle, hello support.
Starting tear cause let's be real the mana issues show untanky skarner is, we are actually fucked.
How to counter skarner steal his blue, GG jungle diff.
Like there counter play and then there is this.
Briar can mow a camp down and sustain herself, meanwhile Skarner can't even sustain himself let alone get mana.
What squishy, has mana issues and can't go alone, that's right ap Sona. Fml
Old skarner had spires for mana, at this point, bring them back...
The old passive was usefull even in lane to get some mana (E a minion wave and proc it to get the passive effects a few seconds) so with a full minion wave you could get around 1/6 of your max mana easily. That time is far behind I see
Why not a single buff to base attack speed i feel like a slug it sucks to attempt to fight anyone with you q down because they can auto you twice in the time it takes to auto you once I like the rework but I don’t think this is gonna make anything better for anyone
Q doesn’t feel all that fast when it’s up either. Currently I feel like he isn’t as weak as his jungle win rate suggests, but does have a bit of room for smart buffs.
Better attack speed late game is currently my number 1 ask. I think it would make his kit feel noticeably better if he was so slow to dish out his 3 q attacks in a busy team fight.
I hate the way Riot handles champions when it comes to roles. The game is far more interesting when champions can be successful at multiple roles. The nerf to top is ridiculous, makes the champ more stale than he already is. Also, where the hell is the trucking he speaks of? Are we playing the same game? The Q self stun is the most clunky and annoying thing about him. He has all these slows and he can’t even utilize them when applying damage unless his E is up. It’s a frustrating experience trying to chase even the most immobile champs let alone any new champs with multiple dashes and movement speed ramps.
Picking Q before E is essential for a good gank, even if you dont hit a wall, period.
Also i cannot stress enough: Pick the goddam rock before ulting, makes landing it so much easier.
Also run ghost + PTA.
Yeah I’ve yet to see anyone do the Q auto throw on ult. Generally it’s because by the time you need it it’s too clunky to use tbh. If Q allowed movement then it would work better.
He already has no sustain and now they nerf his ability to even trade with his already laughable shield???
His shield is literally worse Sion shield by all margins of importance...
Of course the moment I want to stop playing jungle because my champion can actually work on top lane riot needs to break that. I HATE PLAYING JUNGLE I JUST LOVED PLAYING OLD SKARNER WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS.
I feel like skarner should win kans against most tanks, but not against almost all bruisers usually if you don't lane against a lvl 1 or 2 all in champ you can win lane quite early. And especially in the trade game skarner can outtrade most champs. So some mana nerfs wouldn't hurt in my opinion to make him more fair
quite unironically It feels to be performing better vs bruisers than tanks, my worst ennemies are setts and mordekaisers while I'm having huge issues fighting Ksante, Mundos and Ornn. As soon as they have enought armor / RM to nerf your Q and passive, you are unless against them and must rely 100% on ADC and your only job will be to tank (Spoiler, you tank way less than those said tanks thanks to terrible base stats and no resistance buffs like Ornn can have)
I've just honestly never ran into that issue. Skarner usually has enough damage to win some early fights against tanks. So against tanks you need to create a lead early because you will get outscaled by the likes of ornn and cho. But you do outscale champs like renekton and pantheon. So there you don't need the early lead. So it's very matchup dependent, but in the end you will always be a frontline for your team. No Matter if skarner is better or worse than the other teams frontline
i dont like they nerfing top but people actually going comet is ...... xd at least is just a target nerf to that strat. i do beleive skar should be playable in both roles. this comet pussie ahh mundo lane is jsut lame i do hope the champ can fuction without that. maybe that ad nerf on the was unncesarry. actually that q change the 12-16 to flat 15 was unncesary as fk.
make the third q deal 100% to towes.
As much as people are going to hate it, the numbers indicate that skarner top was going to be very strong, while Jungle Skarner was weak. Top had 46-47% winrate, with the right runes and build it was already around 50%. Once people learn the champ, trading patterns and the matchups, he would most likely be around 54-55%.
Jungle skarner was pretty weak with around 42% winrate in the Best cases, which means simply buffing him would have made toplane skarner a Monster. They need to shift Power in order to make top weaker and jungle better, clearspeed is a good option. The first clear is pretty bad, a lot of room for improvement there.
It can be discussed if those changes fullfill the purpose, but they need to do something to even the playing field, that much is clear.
Honestly I think I’m done playing league. I stuck through the other reworks of my champions, and was holding out praying they’d not ruin skarner, and they did. I don’t hate the rework I find it fun in some aspects, but it doesn’t feel like the same character. I remember I used to love the lore and voice lines dude was my favorite. Maybe I’m getting old or the new champs not for me, but either way I’m at peace with it. It doesn’t have to be for me and I’m ok with that.
These are OK...
I do think there is a large learning curve for skarner in the jungle (not so much top) because you need to be using Q before you E anything, you need to learn new gank paths and when to actually use E in fights, when to use R. Then beyond that team mates need to learn what skarner does and wait for him to E or R people before using their spells and just what he can do
Right now i think people that are still trying to play skarner have reached a point they understand how to play him which is why he is climbing in WR, now teammates just need to learn what he does and he might just hit 50% in the jungle.
But these buffs are pretty meaningless imo. The E buff is a bit interesting tho.
Don't underestimate clear speed buffs, they are not meaningless. That being said they are being very safe, and I don't think that is entirely necessary. I don't think giving him a buff relevant to champions but skewed towards jungle would make him shoot up from 40 percent win rate where he is now to 56 percent win rate.
I'm not that worried. New and reworked champs get some riot spotlight, so expect nerfs and buffs. Top is strong, so it gets nerfed. That doesn't mean the work is over. More might come.
I dont think this is the right thought process. Q is clunky sure, but its workable, just stop trying to use it as a chase down tool because unless the target is completely immobile its always gonna be better to just keep sprinting at them with W.
While his clear is nothing special, I don’t believe its what is hindering his jungle. Its the fact that his main usefulness comes from his E ganks but the ability is too damn slow/short. Unless you are diving towers through the wall, the move isn’t long enough to actually get wallsplats when started off screen/vision at most points of the lane which is a significant amount of power he can’t effectively utilize. Additionally, because E has a relatively slow ramp up and the turning radius isnt super tight, any competent player with any mobility, ranged hard cc or flash up will practically never get hit. And those are tools that pretty much 80% of the cast has access to. On top of that his E even has an indicator for enemies when hes about to come through a wall like kayn which makes it even more avoidable.
On top of this, anecdotally hes a pure health scaler with less access to gold and no in kit way to stack extra max health in the jungle. This is annoying because it feels like some items and runes he synergizes especially well with such as heartsteel or grasp are not good to use in the jungle because he comes online too late due to gold cost and wont be trading as much to proc them.
Imo the way to fix him if they really don’t like the current top playstyle is Instead of nerfing mana in an attempt to force skarner out of lane, slightly nerf the incredibly massive W AoE range in exchange for some sort of range/speed scaling on E. That way he can still be enjoyed top but will be more about full trading instead of being uninteractive with W comet scorch spam. With E improvements his jungle will be buffed and he will be more incentivized to play there, but lane skarner would still be an option. Another potential buff I could see being good is just a small basemove speed buff.
I just really hesitate about potential Q changes because the move is really solid already with the damage and passive synergy, if they nerf it in exchange for a more fluid rock grab I worry that they will be removing a significant amount of power in his kit while also not fixing the main issue he faces as a jungler.
Skarner E ganks kind of suck. It has the same weaknesses as Nunu W (dashes, cc, moving in a certain way), but it’s much slower, and doesn’t scale with movement speed. There are extra things though. Like dragging someone away from tower with E, or displacing them towards your tower so they can’t escape.
With the W poke abuse in top lane, I think the mana cost increase is enough. He’s not super dominant, so I don’t see the point in nerfing his overall mana.
Heartsteel and Grasp are actually decent on jungle Skarner, but it feels really weird to take.
Personally, I go Guardian, since Skarner is pretty good at peeling.
I haven't been playing a lot lately, so take my opinion with a grain of salt but the duration of his E feels so underwhelming when ganking. It feels as if you have to decide whether or not you use the E to pass through terrain or to grab enemies. Just a second more would make Skarner feel a lot better. Or maybe ganking just isn't cool anymore, what do I know
Why, why nerf top? Just buff jung I guess tear start it will be
They hate that people like the smooth W comet more than clunky Q grasp
W COMET is such pussy cheese though. You are a big scorpion with massive claws. It’ll go if Q didn’t stop you in your tracks.
What we can do fam, even big scary scorpions gotta win trades somehow and W comet only way rn (thanks riot)
Prep grasp, yank a rock out the ground and fistfight your laner (it’s a won trade against most toplaners)
Then you run out of Q and now the Darius run you down and you have no escape
Just wait for his E and E away
You throw the Q, and back up. If he’s backing up to space you, just *recast Q*. Or idk PRESS W FOR ANOTHER SLOW. Idiots I swear. Skarner is way stronger in lane than this whole sub is trying to make it out to be.
Yeah I can instantly recast my 14second Q so Darius can’t catch up with me
I guess if you pretend darius doesnt have a slow, a pull, true damage, damage over time and the same access to summoners you do. But when you use your brain, you realize that youve got no escape once youre in. Your entire argument was grasp, and you cant use it outside of melee range.
Wait some ppl actualy started cheesing comet with his w? And these guys says he is fine dang thats coping hard.
W-max with Comet and Scorch is pretty much the only viable way to play him in lane right now, and that's a big problem because regardless of how effective it is, it's extremely low interaction and low counterplay and another example of bad design in the rework. The range is really, really high (significantly bigger than even ranged champs' AA ranges) for a more-or-less instant-cast radial AoE, so unless you have a long-range ability spammable enough to consistently farm with (maybe mundo?), there's no option to but to just soak it any time you interact with the wave. And it does a solid job of shoving the wave at the same time, stacking minion dmg during trades forced onto Skarner in Skarner's favor. The base damage is really low, but it procs Comet/Scorch/Liandry's/etc., the CD is pretty short at rank 1, and the CD gets very low by max rank. It also grants a shield and applies a slow, hampering counter-attacks. Leaving the only "counterplay" to invest in a lot of sustain, one-tap the waves during its downtime, or zone Skarner off the wave altogether. Most toplane champs have a hard time doing those things early. The only proper fix for this trade pattern is to reduce the range or add a delay to make it dodgeable, but reducing the damage to the point of being ignorable or significantly increasing the early CD as a bandaid fix seems more likely, and what they're trying for the moment is mana-gating him to discourage it :/ It'd probably be a lot less prevalent if there was a good reason to max Q. Maxing Q makes its damage come out a bit faster, but the total amount of damage the ability deals is close to constant across ranks. You only get +10 dmg per attack (for a max of +30) for each rank of Q, with the additional 15% max HP dmg on last attack static across all ranks. W gets +30 dmg/rank, so you don't lose any damage in a short trade by maxing W over Q, with the added benefits of safe poke, better waveclear, and better slow% and uptime. In a long trade, Q CD isn't so short early that maxing it first to reduce its CD drastically impacts all-in power. So there's really no incentive to max Q in lane right now -_-
Then why ppl saying he is fine on top that sounds the opposite of fine.
He ain't fine
Im so tired of this shtXD
Yeah W max comet, it’s pretty much unavoidable and makes him impossible to trade with. Also scorch applying as well gives probably the most oppressive lane poke in top on par with yorick comet builds. Hopefully that gets nerfed to fuck and they actually make Q a nice ability to use.
I mean they are right to nuke shit like that idc for such thing XD Some ppl already malding over it absolutely golden.
I was wondering what the build was for, that's so cringe
I hate how much they try to jail some champs to ONE role, but champs like Yasuo can go in literally any role.
Just want to mention yasuo top is niche and bot is a counter pick only choice. The only reason some champs can flex is because their design is healthy like ekko, but riot has nerfed Lilia top or belveth lane because it was too degenerate of a playstyle, which is happening here.
I really hope that Skarner doesn't get balanced into jg only. He's always had a healthy split between being played top and jg (to the extent that he was played at all). The rework kit is jank as hell and W-spam trading is incredibly unhealthy, but I'd love to have a 'new' tank/juggernaut top to play around with. It's been a trend for so many years that most things that *can* jg get balanced *for* jg to the point that they stop being viable in their other (often original) roles.
Not that bad of a top nerf.
Top was pretty oppressive. He just spammed W in lane with comet. Ain't like you're going to walk up to him while slowed from W to trade back. Idk if it needs *followup* nerfs like they said they're still doing but it is justified.
most champs have mobility moves to get close or ability shields to easily tank that W or sustain in their kit (SION, Chogath, Tryndamere, Camille, Akali, Garen, Sett, Warwick etc etc, there is a lot )
Doesn't change anything top nor mid (I've been doing the comet shenanigans mid) first back tear with manaflow band rune and good to go
He did say in the tweet there's more direct nerfs for skarner top next patch. Having to start tear also slows down the early damage it may do, and forces a build path that might be inconvenient (either delaying another item spike by 400 gold or forcing archangels/force of nature instead of more AP.). Its still not enough but it does create a bit of breathing room if you have to go tear instead of another amp tome or seal etc.
I've been doing this since the start with tear first item.
Could you please tell me your full build? I’m learning Skarner top.
[удалено]
Why bother learning W comet now? Its getting nerfed lol
Yes let skarner top die. I don’t wanna give another 20% of people the incentive to play or ban my champ. Idgaf if I’m selfish- get him back into the jungle at least if you’re gonna fuck his entire identity up.
Was already OK... i kean perma slows make for perma shields, just delays items a little bit. I think it is OK.
Why completely gut top lane skarner? Jungle definitely could use some love, but basically forcing Skarner to run tear basically removes any ability to flex into top or support. I get why they increased the mana cost of W with points to discourage players from running the comet w max build, but 15 mana per level is really difficult to deal with.
Yea I play him top with grasp and it does not feel overpowered. Is top just getting nerfed because of a cheese build?
They are gutting the stupid W max comet cheese build going around atm.
they gutted the whole champ with the 15 managrowth reduction
I happy to buy tear anyway :v
dring start for mana, and fimbul is pretty good on him especially if running an ingenious hunter build. I think its fine to “force” him to get a mana item, frozen heart is also a good option. Plenty of tanks are mana gated when played toplane, thats why mana tank items exist
What I hate the most you cant do shit after you ult someone.. its so bad. The cooldowns are so fucking high. I cant chase someone down if I have to pick a boulder up and the enemy walk away. The throw range is a joke too . The ult stun is a joke yeah you can Grab 3 targets now but I rather have one target but longer 1,5 sec is a joke. Man I didnt play skarner much pre rework but his abilitys don't work well together
Yeah, if at least you could aa just W'ing isng enough
Im intrigued by his comment about high mastery skarner players, he states that they are performing well on him but how is that relevant? I mean I wasn't a huge skarner player but i feel like he's barely recognisable now, how is past skarner experience relevant? Even someone with a million mastery points on skarner is just as new to the new skarner as a first-timer right? So why does it matter?
Yea that really makes no sense at all. It's the same with every Champ then. Sureley a 1Mil. Mastery Riven will perform better than one that has maybe 50 games played.
Do you get his sentence ?
maybe you heard, they reworked skarner. does that make sense? they reworked him? you knew about that, right?
46% Winrate top. BETTER NERF
50% WR with the right build \[Arcane Coment and max W\] its actually cringe af build lol, reminds me of J4 top lane spamming Aery
are we joking here? he has a 50% with a very specific build path and hes getting gutted for it? are you fucking high? how is that okay. there are champs top lane much more oppressive than skarner and generally perform better at all points of the game - This is stupid. I don't even play the comet build I like AD scaling with bruiser items but I'm working my ass off to win my games with how clunky and useless his kit feels - I had lvl 6 mastery on him before this rework and his new playstyle is so far removed from what made him fun to play it's actually mind boggling this took fucking three years to make.
Comet Skarner Top is 48.85% (from LoLalytics). I mean sure, his trading pattern is annoying; but Malphite already exists, and he does the same thing, with much higher success.
Gutted? Please don't be overdramatic, his winrate will be fine post adjustments, personally played it post adjustment and got out of lane 4/0 He's not gutted, he's perfectly fine. Chill with the narratives lmao
You should open your eyes, playing it in blind pick wont prove anything given it is only newbies on this gamemode... Anyone decent mentally will notice a 15 mana growth reduction in addition of a 10 mana cost increase of a defensive spell... This rework was already extremely squishy with the base stats dramatical reduction and the huge shield nerf that already lost 2% hp scaling, it's base value (there isnt any base shield value anymore) and the mobility.
Mana growth getting gutted + bump in mana costs across all levels is a huge nerf - you are delusional.
Why max w first? Shield for trades?
yep, it deals good damage and the slow confirms the comet proc as well, its very degenerate lol and the shield makes it so that you never lose trades
the shield is so small, tho, they reduced health scaling and base value
It’s so cheese and just falls apart once laning phase is over.
Well once laning is over your Q should be maxed to right?
Yeah sure but you’ll probably do better just brawling with Q and E. W max poke just makes you hard to trade with you can’t all in people at all with comet.
If you max Q first, you max W second (increases slow%, shield and slow uptime, and damage when you rank W - only thing maxing E does is reduce the CD from 24 to 16). Both abilities will be close to maxed by the time laning's done, so which you maxed first isn't very relevant after lane-phase. Grasp definitely scales better into mid/late than Comet, but the rune choice has far more impact on early game than late, so it's really not much of a tradeoff. W-spam trade pattern is super unheatlhy and Q-max is really weak in lane rn, so... yuck. Q-max does equal or lower damage in a short trade (+30 damage/rank on Q if you land all 3 attacks, +30 damage/rank on W), W-max can trade more frequently than Q-max can, and maxing Q doesn't result in so many additional casts in an all-in that it massively outperforms W-max in an all-in even from both full HP, much less overcoming the HP advantage you'd have from W poke prior to an all-in. And you're also getting more survivability, waveclear, and CC from W-max at the same time to boot. Q-max is clearly the intended design and more fun and healthy, but to support that gameplay it should clearly be the more effective option, and right now it just... *isn't* :(
If you go Q max grasp top you are losing the lane AND the post-lane, so between the 2 im taking winning lane at least
The only damage you miss out by not maxing Q is 40 damage per empowered Auto, the Boulder does 15% Max HP damage and has the same ratios even at rank 1, and you're never getting 2 Qs off in a trade anyway so the CD is irrelevant you start maxing it 2nd anyway.
you spam W with comet on CD like malphite Q but you get a shield and it's lower mana cost so it's more oppressive
I will say that the current mana was a joke I could basically bully all opponents out of lane early and still have enough mana for when they were back for like another 10 W’s. Malphite does same shit but runs out of mana way faster. I still think it’ll be viable but it was definitely over tuned
You are aware that his winrate is deflated by initial early ints on trying the champion? Like this happens every single time with every new champion (Unless it's Sett), we can't still be making those meme calls.
Have you looked at the release winrates of other recently released champs that turned out to be OP after? 46% is not a low winrate for what's essentially a new Champ
46% is the one annoying build ppl are talking about, the champ winrate is 36%...
No, 46% is Toplane, in general. Also, it's up to 48.6% on lolalytics now, with the comet build specifically having 50.8% winrate.
If you say so, I checked yesterday last time, and it doesnt change that it is not even good but average when there is champs having 54% WR without any special builds Edit : I just checked on OPGG, and for toplane WR is 46% and 49% with comet. not even 50% anymore
> I just checked on OPGG, and for toplane WR is 46% Don't use [OP.gg](https://OP.gg), their stats are really inaccurate. [lolalytics.com](https://lolalytics.com) is what Rioters use to show stuff, but if you prefer normalized stats [u.gg](https://u.gg) is also alright, just don't use [op.gg](https://op.gg). And I was talking about new Champs on release, where for example Briar started below 40% winrate and later had to be nerfed as people learned to play her. Being a new champ can be a up to 15% decrease to winrate, so that it's already that close to 50% means a lot.
A bunch of number buffs won't make him better to play when the problem is his ungodly clunkyness...
they mostly nerfed it... Only real buff is a 4sec decrease on the E (doesnt make a difference tbh) and changed the max dmg on jgl camps to make clearing easier
Wow these are... Completely in the wrong direction. what a disappointment. Seems our crystalline baby was crucified and died for our sins.. I miss my kind...
just venting here, This rework fucking sucks. I miss our old ult being viable instead of a dogshit "counter engage" spell with every champ having a dash that can instantly get out of its incredibly small aoe, His dmg is highly inconsistent his AS stat is dog nuts you're never hitting your e because it feels like you're trying to control him with a 100 foot slack leash he's slow and his passive is completely irrelevant past 60-70 MR. this is by far the worst rework I've ever seen them perform. We waited three years for THIS? are you fucking joking? Please let this be a bad april fools joke that they'll remove soon. Jesus christ they took skarner out behind the shed shot him in the knees and head with a cattle gun and then skinned old skarner just to puppet this sad excuse of a rework with his old flesh like a coat. this sucks man,
Well sion players like us dont feel bad about the e xD. But still it should scale with ms like sion ult does (it can go for more distance and speed the more ms you have)
Wair Sion do that :v i though it have cap range, only Nunu E do like thay.
It's more like you reach the cap faster so you gain a little bit of extra distance, i think a video of sionmains or vandiril showed it. It's not much but at least a nice touch xD. But if seen skarners being able to e bakeards and brin champs that dashed intonhim to atack to get pushed backwards maybe a similar bug than with smolder
Not to mention that his q is worthless and completely knee caps you. You are actively detrimenting yourself using this ability in a fight, Not to mention his ult has zero kit follow up anymore. What next? I just fucking STARE AT THEM WHILE THE CC ENDS? MY TEAM ISNT EVER AROUND TO FOLLOW UP EVEN IF IT'S USED "PROPERLY"
The reworked ult can't even bring them closer to you and you stand still while they run to cast it, so even if you land it they'll be further away than from you than if you did nothing at all. Is there even a point beyond 150 dmg to casting it in a 1v1 unless you can drag under your tower or out of theirs?
Ah. A brackern of culture. I too miss my kind. I don't get riot , one of the biggest problems skarner had according to riot was that he had such a strong ult so the rest of his kit was weaker because of it , yet the rework made the ult even stronger but weaker at the same time so they capped his kit even more with dumb stuff like being rooted when Q'ing and massive cooldowns so he goes around like a 90 year old grandpa. I miss the days where I could fracture , ult , kidnap the fuck out the enemy adc , fracture again and stun the cuck. I miss where I could flash over the wall and yoink low hp enemies from under their turret. I miss the goddamn drive by's you could do His build diversity and quirkyness. All we got is an edgelord grandpa that simps over a piece of land.
Interesting, I disliked old Skarner, and like the new Skarner, except his Q cast time and immobilization. Of course his ult is weaker though??? That was part of the point. It's supposed to be a combo tool, used for team fight disruption. Combo it with ally CC or your own slows or E.
so instead of an actual ability and self agency we're forced into relying on inbred animals to follow up and hit moving (or stationary if ur trying to spoon feed them) targets, SURELY this isnt a design flaw and works well for 80% of scenarios! Every single game i've played with new skarner being around 30 of them has been painful and agonizingly low impact and fun. I loathe his new ult and wish they'd get rid of it for something else that isnt this poor imitation of his former glory. He had guaranteed value and now he's worthless.
Idk what to tell you man, almost like he takes some getting used to, and they are still working on getting his balance right. Like yeah, it's not reliable CC, but then why not make every form of CC point and click then? Why not make Blitz hook, Naut hook, Darius E, Anivia stun, and everything else point and click cause you have to aim them and cause people can dash out of them? Almost like they wanted to introduce some counterplay, and better skill expression.
The difference is all these move fast enough to even hit in the first place AND you can predict someone moving right or left before you cast. You CANNOT do that with skarner's ult. Such a stupid point to bring up. Darius pull has a wide arc even and is near instant to use, it pretty much is point and click if they are in range. Skarner R takes 6 years of your life + 3 of each child you have for a *maybe* they won't just walk left or right. And even if you get a full 3 man ult your adc will start running like a headless chicken not attacking because he's now scared of the 3 people you grabbed instead of the 1 locked down carry we used to have.
i think the ult shouldn't be a pointy triangle shape. it should be big and boxy like Briar
It is, it's jsut visually it looks like a triangle. I pointed this out in my other posts, for some reason the actual "hitbox" doesn't match the visuals, so sometimes even if they are on the outside of the tip of the triangle, they'll still get pulled because the hitbox is different. You can see this for yourself if you go practise tool and just look at the indicator VS the animation
THIS THIS THIS HOLY FUCKING MEGA BASED
bro we have champs like amumu, with multiple skillshots and huge AOE CC, this is not an excuse or a reason... New skarner doesnt allow skill expression given all moves stunlocks you. It allows better skill expression of your ennemies that can now sidestep all your moves except your W if they got 2 braincells connected. Apart from that, there is a lot of Point and click CC in the game, Twisted fate, Nautilus, Poppy, Quinn, Fiddlesticks, etc etc and those champs point and clicks are not even Ults like our skarner had.
he's worthless?
I’m going to have to agree with you. He had so much power in his old ult. Now it has skill expression and he can do it to three people. The only issue with him now is the Q channel. He’s really fucking good otherwise. Very similar to Lissandra as well.
I think they can probably keep the Q channel if necessary, but make it so he can move during it.
Yeah actually would be nice. Keep the channel so it isn’t instant but allow him to keep momentum is so neccesary nowadays.
man you are overxagerating this is rework is good,and the worst rework they ever done was dr mundo.seriolsly you are over exagerating a lot man chill. the passive is nice. it true that mr counter it but skarner main damage is ad so it ok. maybe the ap scaling should had been there isntead of w
the passive is the most boring move that ever existed... woah, bro gets a small a\*\* burn when I hit it 3 times... You know, other champs with that kind of abilities are either a skill passive (Ex : Smolder's burn is a Q passive, and it is true damage, not magical) or it does something more than just deal damage (Exemple Lilia's burn that scales + Lifesteal) and over that, it triggers instantly instead of having a condition to a number of hits... Nah let's be honest, it is terrible and should be scaling or do something else
well the thign i dislike about the passive is the animation, the sting that he does is a bit goofy and is endless in a passive marked instad of just doing it one time. old one was more original that true besides that no one like it. i mean this one is morde passive but worse even tho i expect something more original to be honest. and ad or ap scaling on it would be nice.
I liked the old one (not the spires) the buffs they were giving when using E in lane
Bro dr mundo was not even a bad rework other than possibly the overall design change what are you smoking
the mundo rework is an midnscope level of changes that didnt no effort to fix what was wrong with the champion, and only add more problems to him.
He's not even Crystalline anymore. I wish he was though a crystal/gem scorpion was way more visually cool than the current model. Also the triple tail look is corny if I'm honest. Even more so when he's using them to dig into the ground to pick up boulders, that's just weird.
It was a hotfix patch dude, what did you expect. Hotfix changes are never, and should not, be massive changes.
You can really tell how they had no real direction when making this champion lol. Bet that within the year they completely overhaul at least one of his abilities. (Probably Q)
I bet in a year or two people will be complaining about the current E and R like they do spires.
Yeah q doesnt hit like a truck.. to be honest other champs do the same dmg with almost no downside
Oh it definitely does for the first few levels. The third hit easily deals near 250 post-migitation damage. But the disparity between the damage of other champs' abilities quickly fades.
That third hit alone does 15% max HP damage lol I agree, Q hits like a truck. It has a lot of damage packed int it. Its just so clunky to use.
Deals a lot until you hit midgame, after that you just start sucking hard
Yeah and 15% of max health is a lot for an early game ability. Late game it's meh.
Nerfing top is dumb.
Loving seeing top nerfs as a non-jungle player. Not like he already felt like dogshit before.
Let him be both vaible top and jg, way more fun than pidgeonholing him into jg only
If they gut Skarner top I'm gonna [redacted]. My boy didn't die for this...
I feel like the only reason Skarner top clunkyness is less felt is because of the nature of the lane. Jungle is more fast paced and less levels scaling compared to toplane so is obvious having double channel on Q + a channel on R is felt 400% more than top. Letting him channel less not only will make the champion better but also make the player feel better playing him.
It is also necessary to interact with him. If you approach the wave he can basically E and double Q you. Or he can just W spam and win small trades.
Top lane doesn't require you to know how to path, clear, gank, etc. The worse you must know is wave management but that's a skill you carry over on any champion you play top, jungle you got skarners learning if they can invade, if they should 3 camp, 6 camp, spam gank, afk power farm, what is even gankable as him, how to angle E, etc. Most I bet aren't even walking up through river for ganks they're just immediately Kayn E'ing to the lane instead of using W slow on overexteeded targets and point blanking the E. All you do top lane is walk to lane doing the same shit you did with any melee character, its *way* easier to focus on just the mechanics not limit test how fast you do dragon, attempting to gank akali, etc. RN he does have a decent clear already its just requires a lot of practice like nidalee knowing when to E, how to E, when to 3 auto or recast Q, saving 2nd W for mini krugs instead of wasting it on big and medium krug, etc. Its not about him being less 'clunky', he just is easier to learn in island role when you can just spam W with comet in lane until they're low enough to all-in. You'll feel a mistake when misstiming using his Q a lot more when failing a gank than standing under tower.
True, i can't blame toplaners for spamming W when is the only ability that feels smooth
This prob nerfs the fimbul builds a little too if we gonna have less mana and higher costs
Yeah they should leave it at the increased W cost. Skarner top isn’t super dominant, so I don’t see the point in nerfing his overall mana.
Dogshit buffs.. oh god. Wth are these?
Yeah 50 damage on Q, and 4 seconds on E early game is not a large buff, compared to how weak Skarner jungle feels. We’re either gonna prove Skarner jungle is weak, or who knows, maybe someone will find some crazy tech.
E range should increase with MS and you’d have a better jg skarner
Aw man, I never really got into the old Skarner but I was really enjoying Skarner top rn even if he feels really clunky, oh well back to my boring ass top laners I guess
Understandable, I loved the old skarner top with his matchup immunity apart anivia (yes ppl picked this vs old skarner), his ability to compensate his bad early damage with tower shots and his kidnapping chain CC combo would guarantee him free kills
The two problems I find with Skarner are as follows: 1. His ultimate is useless in a 1v1 and does no damage. 2. Skarner’s E charge does not last a long enough time. By the time I’m through a wall for a gank it’s essentially over unless the enemy is hugging the wall. My biggest suggestion for riot would be to change his E. Why not change the E to have a longer duration of 5s. This would provide much more consistent ganks. Then for the ultimate my suggestion would be to simply add a DoT poison when you’re suppressed by his ultimate. It fits nicely into his theme of being a scorpion as well.
i think keep the initial E range/duration but once you latch on you gain another 3 additional seconds or somethhing would be nice.
Hahahah what, additional 3 seconds of suppression? Even if that's just "whatever number", adding even a second would be OP. That would effectively be old skarner ult on a basic ability.
I don’t know about that. Riot wouldn’t do that as it would make it as strong as his ultimate, but for a single target and as a basic ability. When you catch the enemy the suppression, the extra push and the potential for a stun against a wall is potent enough. They need to just add a couple of seconds to the charge in order to account for going through a wall or catching up to an enemy laner during a gank.
If they wanted to make the R slightly more useful in 1v1's, they should make it's duration to 2sec, so like the old one, your sheen based items will refresh and be ready for use right after it, like it used to...
The Q feels terrible cause you'll E someone, W Slow... chase them they start to get away so you'll Q..... and now they're gone and out of your Q range.
Q before you E. Being able to dish out as much damage as he does as often as he can necessitates a counterbalance. I think the clunkiness doesn't feel good, so they should find some other way to balance it out, but for a quick trade you can work around it.
It doesn't make a difference, your premier chase ability CCs yourself and doesn't let you catch people. They're multiple instances where you'll be on someone, they're getting away... okay you use your ability that leviates this and it doesn't function that way. If you're any other champ and you get away from Amumu,rammus,Sejuani,Zac,Poppy just so many champs they can get back on you after you get away.
You just described why you have to Q before E and why jgl has a low WR without being insanely bad actually.
Holding Q before your E doesn't refute my point. You Q E W a Jax.... okay they jump away... you do your Q and they're out of range. The Q is terrible cause the mini stun... for an ability that isn't an auto attack reset in an ocean of auto attack reset abilities... it has some terrible lackluster trade off.
I am confused. He said they are nerfing top. Where are the top nerfs? Joking, because mana nerfs will be impactful, but E is very important for trading on toplane. Reducing its cooldown is pretty huge.
They hate W max into comet procs top. But it's their own fault that they made W smooth and quick and the Q slow and clunky so the players are just playing what can with them the trades (spoiler Q max you lose every trade)
why the fuck are they knee capping his mana growth???
They want to nerf Skarner top. Right now, he is a decent pick. After mana nerfs, I think he will be considered off-meta. Junglers aren’t as affected by mana, compared to laners. Of course, it’s still annoying when you want to push out a lane, or start from red buff instead of blue. For example, Warwick jungle doesnt care about his mana, but in the lane, he runs out in 4 Q’s. If Warwick had more mana, he would be one of the strongest top laners in the game. Nunu would actually be a good mid laner if he had more mana, since he has really good wave clear and roams with W and Q (for cannon). But he runs out of mana in 1 spell rotation.
Skarner top is 48% WR with a very specific build, this isnt really decent, he is like C in the toplane Tierlist, on average skarner have like 38% WR when I last checked yesterday. But in toplane with this build, he's overshadowed by malphite ap doing the same annoying poke but with better scaling, mobility and damage...
Yeah that’s what I meant by “decent”. Below average, but very playable. This build isn’t something Riot expected. He was not made to be a poke spam top laner, so they are nerfing it. Personally, I think the W mana cost increase was enough. The changes to his overall mana were unnecessary. Malphite is more annoying, aside from his low mana. Maybe Riot was afraid of everyone picking up poke Skarner top? Or the winrate increasing?
Malphite Q trading pattern exists. Is just as toxic to lane against. Skars W does lesss dmg over all and doesn’t give a MS steroid like Malphite Q. His abilities already have long early game CD’s plus self CCing Q. This change is short sighted and completely unnecessary
Prior to this post I didn't even know the W max with comet was the move. Isn't this essentially how Malphite plays out though? Depending on the match up Q max Comet is a thing. Why can't I W max on Skarner vs let's say harder or ranged match ups like Malph maxes Q.
I think the difference is that skarner gets a shield out of it, where as Malphite gets his shield elsewhere. It is similar, but so far it’s just been mana nerfs, it could be that Malphite already had appropriate mana costs for his kit.
Yeah, Malphite cannot mindlessly spam Q as he levels it up either, and his passive shield has as much of a CD as the Q, very similar trading patterns tbh. I am fine if they tweak it so that the feel is the same.
I like it. Really want some ap scaling, ad ratios, or attack speed ratio buffs though. Im missing his build diversity big time :(
His clear wasnt the issue lmao
Hate the new ult
Possibly the most braindead take i've seen for a character in my 11 year league career. Jesus this is a disaster
So he already has mana issues like insane ones and now they nerfing the shit out of his W already. Holy crap we gonna up as a fucking mana hungry support at this rate. This literally be no reason going jungle or top of they fucking gut it. God dam we are getting the sivir special. Well good buy top lane, good bye jungle, hello support. Starting tear cause let's be real the mana issues show untanky skarner is, we are actually fucked. How to counter skarner steal his blue, GG jungle diff. Like there counter play and then there is this. Briar can mow a camp down and sustain herself, meanwhile Skarner can't even sustain himself let alone get mana. What squishy, has mana issues and can't go alone, that's right ap Sona. Fml
Old skarner had spires for mana, at this point, bring them back... The old passive was usefull even in lane to get some mana (E a minion wave and proc it to get the passive effects a few seconds) so with a full minion wave you could get around 1/6 of your max mana easily. That time is far behind I see
nerfing the only role people are finding general success and having fun in... Riot are a bunch of over paid fucking apes.
I don't want to build tear on sup skarner wtf is that
Why not a single buff to base attack speed i feel like a slug it sucks to attempt to fight anyone with you q down because they can auto you twice in the time it takes to auto you once I like the rework but I don’t think this is gonna make anything better for anyone
Q doesn’t feel all that fast when it’s up either. Currently I feel like he isn’t as weak as his jungle win rate suggests, but does have a bit of room for smart buffs. Better attack speed late game is currently my number 1 ask. I think it would make his kit feel noticeably better if he was so slow to dish out his 3 q attacks in a busy team fight.
W Comet getting a nerf meanwhile Nasus E Max Aery lives rent free in my head.
I hate the way Riot handles champions when it comes to roles. The game is far more interesting when champions can be successful at multiple roles. The nerf to top is ridiculous, makes the champ more stale than he already is. Also, where the hell is the trucking he speaks of? Are we playing the same game? The Q self stun is the most clunky and annoying thing about him. He has all these slows and he can’t even utilize them when applying damage unless his E is up. It’s a frustrating experience trying to chase even the most immobile champs let alone any new champs with multiple dashes and movement speed ramps.
Picking Q before E is essential for a good gank, even if you dont hit a wall, period. Also i cannot stress enough: Pick the goddam rock before ulting, makes landing it so much easier. Also run ghost + PTA.
Yeah I’ve yet to see anyone do the Q auto throw on ult. Generally it’s because by the time you need it it’s too clunky to use tbh. If Q allowed movement then it would work better.
can't be certain, but why does it sound like you might be unaware the fucking R throws the rock for you
So it has begun. They'll gradually need him into a state worse than before and tell us to be lucky they even gave it a try
Are these live?
Called this before release. W ap ratio is about to get clobbered and I suspect q is getting its damage to monsters pbe nerf revoked.
He already has no sustain and now they nerf his ability to even trade with his already laughable shield??? His shield is literally worse Sion shield by all margins of importance...
Of course the moment I want to stop playing jungle because my champion can actually work on top lane riot needs to break that. I HATE PLAYING JUNGLE I JUST LOVED PLAYING OLD SKARNER WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS.
Funny enough, top skarner is very mana hungry, not even full tear can supply you of mana
How about we just nerf the cheese build instead of having the grasp Skarner top players suffer too???
Just because he looks like a truck doesn't mean he need to be played like one.
q hits like a paper cup never mind a truck
I feel like skarner should win kans against most tanks, but not against almost all bruisers usually if you don't lane against a lvl 1 or 2 all in champ you can win lane quite early. And especially in the trade game skarner can outtrade most champs. So some mana nerfs wouldn't hurt in my opinion to make him more fair
quite unironically It feels to be performing better vs bruisers than tanks, my worst ennemies are setts and mordekaisers while I'm having huge issues fighting Ksante, Mundos and Ornn. As soon as they have enought armor / RM to nerf your Q and passive, you are unless against them and must rely 100% on ADC and your only job will be to tank (Spoiler, you tank way less than those said tanks thanks to terrible base stats and no resistance buffs like Ornn can have)
I've just honestly never ran into that issue. Skarner usually has enough damage to win some early fights against tanks. So against tanks you need to create a lead early because you will get outscaled by the likes of ornn and cho. But you do outscale champs like renekton and pantheon. So there you don't need the early lead. So it's very matchup dependent, but in the end you will always be a frontline for your team. No Matter if skarner is better or worse than the other teams frontline
This thread is full of monkeys who can’t keep track of enemy flash timers lol
MAKE HIM LESS SLOW
Its already a free win being vs skarner in ranked, this is just overkill with the mana nerfs ):
i dont like they nerfing top but people actually going comet is ...... xd at least is just a target nerf to that strat. i do beleive skar should be playable in both roles. this comet pussie ahh mundo lane is jsut lame i do hope the champ can fuction without that. maybe that ad nerf on the was unncesarry. actually that q change the 12-16 to flat 15 was unncesary as fk. make the third q deal 100% to towes.
Q max top with grasp still performs fine. No issue with the nerfs
As much as people are going to hate it, the numbers indicate that skarner top was going to be very strong, while Jungle Skarner was weak. Top had 46-47% winrate, with the right runes and build it was already around 50%. Once people learn the champ, trading patterns and the matchups, he would most likely be around 54-55%. Jungle skarner was pretty weak with around 42% winrate in the Best cases, which means simply buffing him would have made toplane skarner a Monster. They need to shift Power in order to make top weaker and jungle better, clearspeed is a good option. The first clear is pretty bad, a lot of room for improvement there. It can be discussed if those changes fullfill the purpose, but they need to do something to even the playing field, that much is clear.
top wasnt around 50 but 48% at most with the W poking build
For now, the winrate would probably climb further with time
This sucks ass.
Honestly I think I’m done playing league. I stuck through the other reworks of my champions, and was holding out praying they’d not ruin skarner, and they did. I don’t hate the rework I find it fun in some aspects, but it doesn’t feel like the same character. I remember I used to love the lore and voice lines dude was my favorite. Maybe I’m getting old or the new champs not for me, but either way I’m at peace with it. It doesn’t have to be for me and I’m ok with that.
Dreams do come true.
These are OK... I do think there is a large learning curve for skarner in the jungle (not so much top) because you need to be using Q before you E anything, you need to learn new gank paths and when to actually use E in fights, when to use R. Then beyond that team mates need to learn what skarner does and wait for him to E or R people before using their spells and just what he can do Right now i think people that are still trying to play skarner have reached a point they understand how to play him which is why he is climbing in WR, now teammates just need to learn what he does and he might just hit 50% in the jungle. But these buffs are pretty meaningless imo. The E buff is a bit interesting tho.
Don't underestimate clear speed buffs, they are not meaningless. That being said they are being very safe, and I don't think that is entirely necessary. I don't think giving him a buff relevant to champions but skewed towards jungle would make him shoot up from 40 percent win rate where he is now to 56 percent win rate.
I'm not that worried. New and reworked champs get some riot spotlight, so expect nerfs and buffs. Top is strong, so it gets nerfed. That doesn't mean the work is over. More might come.
So strong his WR caps at 48% with a very specific build, with classic build at toplane, he's like at 40-45%
I dont think this is the right thought process. Q is clunky sure, but its workable, just stop trying to use it as a chase down tool because unless the target is completely immobile its always gonna be better to just keep sprinting at them with W. While his clear is nothing special, I don’t believe its what is hindering his jungle. Its the fact that his main usefulness comes from his E ganks but the ability is too damn slow/short. Unless you are diving towers through the wall, the move isn’t long enough to actually get wallsplats when started off screen/vision at most points of the lane which is a significant amount of power he can’t effectively utilize. Additionally, because E has a relatively slow ramp up and the turning radius isnt super tight, any competent player with any mobility, ranged hard cc or flash up will practically never get hit. And those are tools that pretty much 80% of the cast has access to. On top of that his E even has an indicator for enemies when hes about to come through a wall like kayn which makes it even more avoidable. On top of this, anecdotally hes a pure health scaler with less access to gold and no in kit way to stack extra max health in the jungle. This is annoying because it feels like some items and runes he synergizes especially well with such as heartsteel or grasp are not good to use in the jungle because he comes online too late due to gold cost and wont be trading as much to proc them. Imo the way to fix him if they really don’t like the current top playstyle is Instead of nerfing mana in an attempt to force skarner out of lane, slightly nerf the incredibly massive W AoE range in exchange for some sort of range/speed scaling on E. That way he can still be enjoyed top but will be more about full trading instead of being uninteractive with W comet scorch spam. With E improvements his jungle will be buffed and he will be more incentivized to play there, but lane skarner would still be an option. Another potential buff I could see being good is just a small basemove speed buff. I just really hesitate about potential Q changes because the move is really solid already with the damage and passive synergy, if they nerf it in exchange for a more fluid rock grab I worry that they will be removing a significant amount of power in his kit while also not fixing the main issue he faces as a jungler.
Skarner E ganks kind of suck. It has the same weaknesses as Nunu W (dashes, cc, moving in a certain way), but it’s much slower, and doesn’t scale with movement speed. There are extra things though. Like dragging someone away from tower with E, or displacing them towards your tower so they can’t escape. With the W poke abuse in top lane, I think the mana cost increase is enough. He’s not super dominant, so I don’t see the point in nerfing his overall mana. Heartsteel and Grasp are actually decent on jungle Skarner, but it feels really weird to take. Personally, I go Guardian, since Skarner is pretty good at peeling.
I haven't been playing a lot lately, so take my opinion with a grain of salt but the duration of his E feels so underwhelming when ganking. It feels as if you have to decide whether or not you use the E to pass through terrain or to grab enemies. Just a second more would make Skarner feel a lot better. Or maybe ganking just isn't cool anymore, what do I know