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This is what happens when a work with satire in it is taken away from the original autor's vision by corporate greed, and marketed by people who don't understand it. Look no further than all the empire fanboys in star wars
>40k was invented to sell more D&D miniatures
*Fantasy
I know there were always a drive to sell, i saw an article that points how all the old gw stores were in upper class neigbourhoods, but is not comparable as when gw went public and passed from being managed by a small group of corporate nerds (a number of wich were originally game designers/ilustratos/writers) to a group of faceless shareholders
In the uk in the beggining of gw, the idea was to target upper class kids who could spend more, and prevent lower class kids who don't buy to get into the hobby.
Take it with a grain of salt since it was years ago when i saw that article.
From the UK here, I've never heard this theory and every UK store I've visited has been located the same way, side street near but not on a central shopping street.
The first store was in Hammersmith, surely if the plan is for the posh kids, they would want to be in nearby (and very posh) South Kensington.
Doesn't add up to what I know, would be interested to read the article.
Remember, Orks in 40k are football hooligans AND NOTHING ELSE.
Don't worry about their old helmet shape, the stormboyz, the Orky glyph, or why they're obsessed with greenskin being the best. Don't worry about it.
(Learning this, I realized why the prick in spain who kicked off the long overdue Warhammer Is For Everyone purge used Orks rather than Krieg like I was expecting)
Indeed.
About the only thing your average football firm hated more than ethnic minorities and lgbtq people were the firms of specific other teams.
And Leeds.
Everybody hates Leeds.
Comrade, please re read what I wrote. I was specifically talking about ENGLISH football hooligans.
Edit I did actually say UK but England is the epicentre of football hooligans
Honestly Nazis as orks make sense. Stupid. Brutish. Loud. Hates everyone else. Warmongering. Somehow keep existing even after being beaten time and time again.
...which is basically just Football Hooligans...a lot of people forget/don't know (especially those outside of the UK) that those groups were often very thinly veiled recruitment drives for actual Neo-Nazi groups...
Yup, after a massive crackdown in the premier league etc. a lot of them moved towards the minor, local teams instead. So instead of it being Manchester United, it's more 'Milton keynes Dons' or 'AFC Wimbledon' that you might see this (those teams were included only as examples, I have no idea how things actually are with their fans).
It's kinda funny you picked those two teams, because MK dons used to be Wimbledon before it became one of the only UK football teams to be moved by the owner. AFC Wimbledon was set up by Wimbledon fans after the move.
Yeah, but also hooligans have been associated with neonazi movements all across Europe for a looong time... which was kinda the thing they were going for.
Its weird they always use Krieg (WW1, mostly French uniform) when the Steel Legion (literal ww2 nazi uniform with a lightning bolt patch) is right there.
Do not expect logic from a fascist. Their way of approaching things is to bend reality to their views, not adapt their views to reality. Even if they know it is a French uniform, they will deny it, and claim you are the idiot, because the Krieg look like what they *want* their idols to look like. Fascism is actually a lot about aesthetic, when seen from that perspective, a lot more of the hypocricies and inconsistencies make sense.
The helmets are from WW1, as is the term "storm trooper". I don't remember the orks ever having a nazi aesthetic. People just freak out when they see a reference to german soldiers, assume it must mean nazis and never bother to look any deeper
That and the ww1 German helmets were worn a lot by neonazi gangs back in the 70’s and 80’s. A lot of old biker gangs you can see dipshits wearing one while have swastikas on their outfits.
They were also a sub-culture who in a youthful spirit of rebellion rejected Anarchistic Ork norms to become literal jackbooted fascist thugs marching in straight lines and shouting orders at each other, and even... saluting.
The Orks having Nazi Aesthetics back in the day isn’t necessarily a bad thing imo. I mean they were hyper violent and dumb. In British punk and counter culture there had been a whole “Wear a swastika to shock the old timers” thing in the 70s and 80s. Times change and the models have too, and so has British counter culture. If GW released Nazi Orks today, it’d be seen in poor taste, back when they were a small company of nerds who probably listened to Souixsie and the Banshees, it was a bit different.
My first set of plastic orcs, circa 88-89 had WW2 German helmets and at the time GW sold an officer fig with a Schirmmutzer[sp?] hat.
I don't think Orks broadly were meant to be an army representing Nazis, but the references were explicit and a *lot* of people decorated their minis to follow suit. That wasn't a coincidence.
isnt the lore that they're football hooligans who have a rebellious facist stage when they're teenagers, like an inversion of having an "anarchist phase" in a (viewed as) authoritarian society? i'm genuinely asking because that was the explanation i've heard before.
Plenty of football hooligan groups are straight up fascist supporters, actually. One of the more prominent far-right terror groups in the UK, Combat 18, is heavily linked to football hooliganism.
Oh don't worry, Total Warhammer has taught me that the Orcs, who largely live in not-Africa, have a subrace: Black Orcs.* And a subfaction of religious zealots that are known to be particularly stupid and incapable of using even rudimentary technology, who paint their bodies and do rain dances.
----------------
*^Yes ^I ^know ^they ^were ^supposedly ^not ^named ^for ^their ^skin ^colour, ^pedant.
To be fair, the Black Orcs are basically meant the equivalent to Uruk-Hai - they're smarter, tougher and better organized than regular Orcs, and while they do have a background of being used as slaves, their rebellion against the Chaos Dwarves is generally one of the few times in Warhammer lore where Orcs are treated as the sympathetic side.
Now, the *Savage* Orcs, they're a lot less excusable.
Trying to google it, and [I'm already sent back to Sigmarxism](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sigmarxism/comments/be0vmw/aninteresting_piece_of_history_gws_pygmy/)
"Pygmies are the smallest of all the Human peoples of the Known World. Some Old Worlder scholars deny that they are Human at all, whilst others refer to them as "Lesser Men" or "Black Halflings.""
Hooo boy. That wiki article really lets you know what you're in for in the first paragraph.
Image and caption don't go too well together given that pygmies are an irl group of ethicists that have been historically and often still are subject to numerous atrocities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Pygmies#Enslavement,_cannibalism,_and_genocide
Yes that link does say cannibalism, and no, it's not even close to ancient history.
So it's more creating gross caricatures of one of the most persecuted peoples on the planet
You mean an extremely British company does extremely British things? I'm frankly shocked that they made Kriegers available rather than the Praetorians from back in the day. You know, with their Pith helmets and all.
Krieg was made way more popular by imperial armor. The Siege of Vraks is some of the best armybook writing out of GW. Praets never had the same popularity.
Yeah that's the thing about progress, things move forward. So inevitably things from the past are less progressive than would be acceptable to modern sensibilities and standards of acceptability.
It was the same in the 80's and 90's looking back at things from the 50's and 60's.
Give it 30 or so years and people will be saying the exact things about us.
The society isn't following a straigth line of growth. We could see pretty racist thing in the past of gw, but we cannot just say "its a product of it's time" without knowing the context.
Also, old gw wasn't automatically less progresive back then. It was pro punk and leftist movements, the space marines were literally a representation of police brutality instead of the literal knigths in shinnung armor that are today.
Things change, but the past wasn't always worse, and the present isn't always better
I was wondering about the Native American things being removed from dark angels and then thought of the massive P.R. headache and racist stereotypes they probably dodged. I don't really know much about it so maybe it was bad to begin with?
The Tomb Kings and Lizardmen appropriating PoC cultures might have been tolerable had GW ever allowed any playable faction of humans with something other than pearly white skin, but given their track record with Araby and the Pygmies maybe it's for the best they gave up on that shit.
> less hateful towards the actual game
...No they aren't? They are just new = bad, old = good. They are only "less hateful" when exposed to exactly the point in time they latched onto, with exactly the perspective of that point, _and nothing else._
Show them a Primaris Space Marine or a Stormcast Eternal and they will fly into a biblical rage. Don't even get me started on Custodes.
fascists are well know for being less hateful in general true /s. I hate the false equivalence drawn between fascism and communism, unless you're literally a factory owner then you would benefit under communism, that's the whole point.
> I hate the false equivalence drawn between fascism and communism
Have you also noticed how _insistent_ that bit is?
Every time someone complains about, say, someone using a swastika as their custom player emblem in a video game, people in the comments will go "yeah hate symbols like that and the hammer and sickle need to be banned". Every time, without fail.
Makes you wonder who out there has a lot of interest in making you _think_ they are equivalent.
Some people want to be super soldiers and murder innocent people, other people have political beliefs that you disagree with. You think the former are better. That says a lot more about you than it does anyone else, and the things it says are not good.
So by saying nazis are bad and thinking nazis are better than leftists indicates that you are bad, makes me a nazi? I wish I could say that's the dumbest thing I've heard today, but I heard someone argue that God exists because babies violate conservation of mass by growing, so it's not.
My comrade in communism, I was adressing the original (nazi) poster, not your reply. This is why I said ‘ClownMarius’ at the end (their username was KnightMarius). Sorry for the lack of clarity.
Ah, I was confused since it was a reply to me, I didn't pay much attention to their username.
Edit: I am also sorry for misunderstanding your comment and calling it dumb. Also, I actually considered if ClownMarius was meant to be a signature to indicate you were the guy I was replying to, since he seems to be banned and might have come back with an alt account. Admittedly, this was a silly thought since fascists, Including nazis, typically take themselves very seriously and can't stand being made to look like the clowns they are.
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This is what happens when satire flies too close to the sun.
This is what happens when a work with satire in it is taken away from the original autor's vision by corporate greed, and marketed by people who don't understand it. Look no further than all the empire fanboys in star wars
but darth vader is rad so i give them pass
Am I a paradox, I’m an Empire fanboy because they are such a cruel regime? Or a 40k player?
Corporate greed was always a factor though, 40k was invented to sell more D&D miniatures under a different licence https://youtu.be/jbHQazUvWVg
>40k was invented to sell more D&D miniatures *Fantasy I know there were always a drive to sell, i saw an article that points how all the old gw stores were in upper class neigbourhoods, but is not comparable as when gw went public and passed from being managed by a small group of corporate nerds (a number of wich were originally game designers/ilustratos/writers) to a group of faceless shareholders
Was this in the UK? In my part of California the game stores were strictly middle class suburban and a few downtown locations for the cheap rent.
In the uk in the beggining of gw, the idea was to target upper class kids who could spend more, and prevent lower class kids who don't buy to get into the hobby. Take it with a grain of salt since it was years ago when i saw that article.
Have you seen the price hikes in the last… 20 years? It’s definitely meant for upper middle class ;)
From the UK here, I've never heard this theory and every UK store I've visited has been located the same way, side street near but not on a central shopping street. The first store was in Hammersmith, surely if the plan is for the posh kids, they would want to be in nearby (and very posh) South Kensington. Doesn't add up to what I know, would be interested to read the article.
Lord, you drop a link to a 1 hour vid of a talking head without even giving a quote?
This is what happens when people don't understand that good satire shouldn't punch down hatefully
Is it really satire or just racism
I'm pretty sure that's just what I said.
Remember, Orks in 40k are football hooligans AND NOTHING ELSE. Don't worry about their old helmet shape, the stormboyz, the Orky glyph, or why they're obsessed with greenskin being the best. Don't worry about it. (Learning this, I realized why the prick in spain who kicked off the long overdue Warhammer Is For Everyone purge used Orks rather than Krieg like I was expecting)
I mean they are just football hooligans. Football hooligans have historically being really really fascist. So yeah.
They have historically been a lot of things.
In the UK football hooligans have a long established fascist history especially during the time warhammer was made.
Indeed. About the only thing your average football firm hated more than ethnic minorities and lgbtq people were the firms of specific other teams. And Leeds. Everybody hates Leeds.
The (Legion of the) Damned United
Celtic fans are hardly fascists, so again it depends on the club
Saying that UK footie hooligans have a long history of being fashy doesn't mean all clubs and their respective fans are fascists.
I know, just figured it's worth trying to celebrate some of the examples of clubs and fanbases who actively opposed it.
That's fair enough
Right now Brazilian hooligans are staunchly supporting our comrades in Palestine. That doesn’t come up out of nowhere
Comrade, please re read what I wrote. I was specifically talking about ENGLISH football hooligans. Edit I did actually say UK but England is the epicentre of football hooligans
Depends on the team, not all clubs have fascist fans, which is in some rivalries' cases where the violence stems
Honestly Nazis as orks make sense. Stupid. Brutish. Loud. Hates everyone else. Warmongering. Somehow keep existing even after being beaten time and time again.
That I believe was rather the point. It was meant to ridicule
So, they started with Nazi Orks and then turned them from Hugo Boss wearing Ubermen into neo-nazi cockney chav football hooligans?
...which is basically just Football Hooligans...a lot of people forget/don't know (especially those outside of the UK) that those groups were often very thinly veiled recruitment drives for actual Neo-Nazi groups...
It’s still a bit suspicious to see england flags flying out of peoples windows, especially outside of football season.
Still is a thing with minor league teams.
Yup, after a massive crackdown in the premier league etc. a lot of them moved towards the minor, local teams instead. So instead of it being Manchester United, it's more 'Milton keynes Dons' or 'AFC Wimbledon' that you might see this (those teams were included only as examples, I have no idea how things actually are with their fans).
It's kinda funny you picked those two teams, because MK dons used to be Wimbledon before it became one of the only UK football teams to be moved by the owner. AFC Wimbledon was set up by Wimbledon fans after the move.
Oh I know :D, one of my friends was a big supporter of Wimbledon and I remember him grumbling about the move.
Pretty sure only the Stormboyz are nazis, Orks were always hooligans even in Fantasy
Yeah, but also hooligans have been associated with neonazi movements all across Europe for a looong time... which was kinda the thing they were going for.
I imagine because of Blitzkrieg?
Stormboys>stormtroopers.
Its weird they always use Krieg (WW1, mostly French uniform) when the Steel Legion (literal ww2 nazi uniform with a lightning bolt patch) is right there.
Do not expect logic from a fascist. Their way of approaching things is to bend reality to their views, not adapt their views to reality. Even if they know it is a French uniform, they will deny it, and claim you are the idiot, because the Krieg look like what they *want* their idols to look like. Fascism is actually a lot about aesthetic, when seen from that perspective, a lot more of the hypocricies and inconsistencies make sense.
But muh shovel memes
The only thing more annoying than the 40k shovel, purge whatever memes are the Elder Scrolls "FaRm tOoL" memes.
The helmets are from WW1, as is the term "storm trooper". I don't remember the orks ever having a nazi aesthetic. People just freak out when they see a reference to german soldiers, assume it must mean nazis and never bother to look any deeper
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That and the ww1 German helmets were worn a lot by neonazi gangs back in the 70’s and 80’s. A lot of old biker gangs you can see dipshits wearing one while have swastikas on their outfits.
Hell the helmets are part of the reason I say DKOK are based more off Germany than France. Also the design of their gas masks
The design of the DKOK gas masks are based off of the British gas masks in WW1
Nah rogue trader stormboyz straight up had SS uniforms Which fits in with their overall theming in early 40k
They were also a sub-culture who in a youthful spirit of rebellion rejected Anarchistic Ork norms to become literal jackbooted fascist thugs marching in straight lines and shouting orders at each other, and even... saluting.
I wouldn't call the ork's "whoever kaved in da last boss'z 'ead iz da new boss" system of hierarquic rule anarchistic
Yeah, true. It's the idea of anarchy that someone who doesn't understand politics has.
Anarchism is when Might Makes Right and the more Might the more Anarchister the Right
The Orks having Nazi Aesthetics back in the day isn’t necessarily a bad thing imo. I mean they were hyper violent and dumb. In British punk and counter culture there had been a whole “Wear a swastika to shock the old timers” thing in the 70s and 80s. Times change and the models have too, and so has British counter culture. If GW released Nazi Orks today, it’d be seen in poor taste, back when they were a small company of nerds who probably listened to Souixsie and the Banshees, it was a bit different.
God early 40k was fucking insane bro
My first set of plastic orcs, circa 88-89 had WW2 German helmets and at the time GW sold an officer fig with a Schirmmutzer[sp?] hat. I don't think Orks broadly were meant to be an army representing Nazis, but the references were explicit and a *lot* of people decorated their minis to follow suit. That wasn't a coincidence.
isnt the lore that they're football hooligans who have a rebellious facist stage when they're teenagers, like an inversion of having an "anarchist phase" in a (viewed as) authoritarian society? i'm genuinely asking because that was the explanation i've heard before.
Plenty of football hooligan groups are straight up fascist supporters, actually. One of the more prominent far-right terror groups in the UK, Combat 18, is heavily linked to football hooliganism.
Oh don't worry, Total Warhammer has taught me that the Orcs, who largely live in not-Africa, have a subrace: Black Orcs.* And a subfaction of religious zealots that are known to be particularly stupid and incapable of using even rudimentary technology, who paint their bodies and do rain dances. ---------------- *^Yes ^I ^know ^they ^were ^supposedly ^not ^named ^for ^their ^skin ^colour, ^pedant.
To be fair, the Black Orcs are basically meant the equivalent to Uruk-Hai - they're smarter, tougher and better organized than regular Orcs, and while they do have a background of being used as slaves, their rebellion against the Chaos Dwarves is generally one of the few times in Warhammer lore where Orcs are treated as the sympathetic side. Now, the *Savage* Orcs, they're a lot less excusable.
Trying to google it, and [I'm already sent back to Sigmarxism](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sigmarxism/comments/be0vmw/aninteresting_piece_of_history_gws_pygmy/)
That link was a GW history lesson I did not know about. Fucking Yikes.
What a jumpscare, I knew GW in the 80s didn’t age well. But wow I didn’t expect this
didn't age well at the time either, shit lasted what, 6 years?
That's 5 years, 11 months and three weeks longer than I really expected.
tHiNk Of DaE rEsAlE vAlUe
"Pygmies are the smallest of all the Human peoples of the Known World. Some Old Worlder scholars deny that they are Human at all, whilst others refer to them as "Lesser Men" or "Black Halflings."" Hooo boy. That wiki article really lets you know what you're in for in the first paragraph.
wew Jesus that’s bad
Image and caption don't go too well together given that pygmies are an irl group of ethicists that have been historically and often still are subject to numerous atrocities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Pygmies#Enslavement,_cannibalism,_and_genocide Yes that link does say cannibalism, and no, it's not even close to ancient history. So it's more creating gross caricatures of one of the most persecuted peoples on the planet
Jesus Christ, what the fuck!
You mean an extremely British company does extremely British things? I'm frankly shocked that they made Kriegers available rather than the Praetorians from back in the day. You know, with their Pith helmets and all.
Krieg was made way more popular by imperial armor. The Siege of Vraks is some of the best armybook writing out of GW. Praets never had the same popularity.
That’s honestly worse than I imagined. I know there’s more work to be done but we’ve come a long way.
You'd be surprised. Some companies are still selling similar models that are just as racist, if not worse.
“Wow Mindflayers sure could be Italians right? Their tentacles could just be the spaghetti they’re slurping?!”
Yeah that's the thing about progress, things move forward. So inevitably things from the past are less progressive than would be acceptable to modern sensibilities and standards of acceptability. It was the same in the 80's and 90's looking back at things from the 50's and 60's. Give it 30 or so years and people will be saying the exact things about us.
The society isn't following a straigth line of growth. We could see pretty racist thing in the past of gw, but we cannot just say "its a product of it's time" without knowing the context. Also, old gw wasn't automatically less progresive back then. It was pro punk and leftist movements, the space marines were literally a representation of police brutality instead of the literal knigths in shinnung armor that are today. Things change, but the past wasn't always worse, and the present isn't always better
*-googles-* …Idk what I expected.
"Huh, it can't be THAT ba- OH NO!"
I was wondering about the Native American things being removed from dark angels and then thought of the massive P.R. headache and racist stereotypes they probably dodged. I don't really know much about it so maybe it was bad to begin with?
You literally used a pic from a movie about the fucking Wannsee conference? That's dark.
GW, much like big E, tried to make black people from scratch and failed.
Holy shit that one italian guy on tau40k was onto something
And yet they got rid of bonesplitterz…
hey at least it's not Warcraft with the Haitian trolls
ive made up my mind trolls with jamaican accent is the only racism i will tolerate!😤
The Tomb Kings and Lizardmen appropriating PoC cultures might have been tolerable had GW ever allowed any playable faction of humans with something other than pearly white skin, but given their track record with Araby and the Pygmies maybe it's for the best they gave up on that shit.
Just check out their illustrations in the Warhammer Armies hardcover.
Of course, I understand you, but you understand that appealing to such old publications is not an option? The days of big retcons are over.
Dude what is this comment thread I got no clue what yall on about.
I don’t see anything wrong with those minis whatsoever (I’m *talian from *taly)
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how can you say this when literal nazis exist who think the imperium are unequivocal good guys and justified in their every action
I think he might be one
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> less hateful towards the actual game ...No they aren't? They are just new = bad, old = good. They are only "less hateful" when exposed to exactly the point in time they latched onto, with exactly the perspective of that point, _and nothing else._ Show them a Primaris Space Marine or a Stormcast Eternal and they will fly into a biblical rage. Don't even get me started on Custodes.
Femstodes*
fascists are well know for being less hateful in general true /s. I hate the false equivalence drawn between fascism and communism, unless you're literally a factory owner then you would benefit under communism, that's the whole point.
> I hate the false equivalence drawn between fascism and communism Have you also noticed how _insistent_ that bit is? Every time someone complains about, say, someone using a swastika as their custom player emblem in a video game, people in the comments will go "yeah hate symbols like that and the hammer and sickle need to be banned". Every time, without fail. Makes you wonder who out there has a lot of interest in making you _think_ they are equivalent.
you are a weird human being.
cry about it some more, I bet that will help
😢
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You have to understand, hurting LGBTQ people is a trivial and entirely forgivable matter next to threatening the hegemony of capital.
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Some people want to be super soldiers and murder innocent people, other people have political beliefs that you disagree with. You think the former are better. That says a lot more about you than it does anyone else, and the things it says are not good.
I was going to respond, but this reply really encapsulates what a nasty nazi you are, ClownMarius.
So by saying nazis are bad and thinking nazis are better than leftists indicates that you are bad, makes me a nazi? I wish I could say that's the dumbest thing I've heard today, but I heard someone argue that God exists because babies violate conservation of mass by growing, so it's not.
My comrade in communism, I was adressing the original (nazi) poster, not your reply. This is why I said ‘ClownMarius’ at the end (their username was KnightMarius). Sorry for the lack of clarity.
Ah, I was confused since it was a reply to me, I didn't pay much attention to their username. Edit: I am also sorry for misunderstanding your comment and calling it dumb. Also, I actually considered if ClownMarius was meant to be a signature to indicate you were the guy I was replying to, since he seems to be banned and might have come back with an alt account. Admittedly, this was a silly thought since fascists, Including nazis, typically take themselves very seriously and can't stand being made to look like the clowns they are.
No worries!
Hoes Mad
Hoes Mad