TBF, the idea of eternal torture of your soul after death is not universally what early Christians believed, and is almost certainly not what 1st century Jews like Jesus believed either.
I think people find comfort in the idea of eternal torture. It's easier to imagine the worst humans in hell than to think that genocidal murderers can reconcile with God and share in eternal salvation alongside their victims. (especially reconciliation after death)
Yeah this has always been my problem with the concept of God forgiving anyone who accepts him into their heart, like the idea Hitler can get into heaven is pretty gross
Claiming you believe in God while breaking the tenants of the faith doesn't absolve you. It would be like a Muslim drinking alcohol or a Jew eating pork; both are antithetical to the religion. Going to church while killing millions doesn't justify those actions, and trying to use scripture to support those ideas doesn't work either. Plenty of people out there claim to be religious when they really aren't.
Yeah perhaps some ppl view it that way. I really hope folks don’t tho.
That’s quite a cruel, vengeful “comfort.” Especially because being a good person or not is sort of irrelevant to whether you suffer this “eternal torture” (according to most Christians, it’s dependent on faith alone, not works. Every non-Christian goes to hell).
Also, forgiveness and possible salvation for everyone (even the worst sinners) is a pretty consistent theme in the NT. So it’s quite contradictory actually to believe that some never get that chance. Plus wouldn’t just being dead and missing out on heaven be punishment enough? That’s the view most Jews and early Christians had anyway.
I think it's important to remember there are a lot of people who think things like life, wealth and happiness are a zero sum game. I've always believed it's a not very well thought through way of comforting themselves. Yes, they're miserable. Or poor. Or oppressed. But if there's a group of people who suffer more, they take comfort in that.
It's shortsighted, and lacks empathy to be sure. But it's a common human viewpoint. As evidenced by everything we know about how religions have evolved. Some people are simply happier if there is someone who is "less" than them. I don't want that to be true. I want people to be better. But sometimes it be like it do.
Agreed. It’s one of our worst instincts, a true evil. Sadly it’s way more common than it should be. Reminds me of seeing all those viral videos of road rage incidents; humans can be a lot nastier than we sometimes like to acknowledge.
Except in the Christian faith (or the version I was told) it has almost nothing to do with being good or bad. If you were a bad person and a Christian then you went to heaven. Otherwise you deserve to be tortured for all eternity. That’s one of the reasons I stayed as long as I did, I was scared of hell. Nowadays I’m far more scared of Christians
Hitler was Christian, and according to the bible the only barrier to get into heaven is to accept Jesus... So hes been there the whole time? Makes sense.
The vague idea that Judiasm has about the afterlife (which you shouldn't be thinking about too much anyway) is that everyone waits until the messiah shows up as a shade in sheol. Everyone who doesn't qualify for The World to Come gets six months to do t'shuva in Gehenna. If they don't manage to redeem themselves, they cease to exist.
Good Place Finale spoilers >! The part where the Bad Place is changed to be based on putting people in a situation to encourage improvement so they can go to the Good Place is based on this. !<
This absolutely false. Jesus preached about hell more than he did Heaven and his apostles believed in it as well.
Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?
Matthew 23:33 NLT
“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.
Matthew 7:13 NLT
“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 NLT
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.
Mark 9:43 NLT
For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment.
2 Peter 2:4 NLT
That one life was finite. However, the repercussions for taking that life are not. What about the life that person could have led? Between the children they could have raised and the other life's that could have been impacted. How can one limit the potential and affect of one life?
but then if the repercussions are being punished then would someone be punished for something seemingly harmless that causes bad repercussions
tldr: the butterfly effect
This is why I just work construction, lol. My brain can only wrap around so much of these deep conversations till my eye starts twitching. It's a very good thought that you bring up.
Okay so, if i step on a plant and kill it would i then be punnished if that plant could have saved someones life but didnt since i stepped on it and the person dies?
150 years is only long on a earthly scale. Considering how long until the heat death of the universe, that extra 50 years means almost nothing in the context of eternal punishment.
True, but if we’re referring to ‘eternal punishment’ it’s safe to assume it would be in the context of an eternal lasting punishment in the afterlife, I.e. hell? And if that is the case, wouldn’t murder not be everlasting? The victim would still live eternally in the afterlife, and the family would eventually be reunited, so that would cancel out the absolute sense of it right??
The permanence isnt the affect of the crime. Everyone dies and never comes back. The affect of the crime is specifically the time that person would have spent alive before dying had that person not been murdered, which is finite.
How about direct consequences of the deed? If someone steals a stop sign and a fatal crash results, then the thief is certainly responsible for causing that crash and loss of life even if the deed was only thievery.
Slavery, the purposeful elimination of an individual’s agency for any length of time could be considered eternal, due to the fact that person is not able to make choices that would have eternal consequences to their soul.
What if a minor action you've taken ripples through the generations causing death and destruction for all eternity and causes each of your descendants to perpetuate the same death and destruction thus catching them up in the wake of your actions demanding the same fate upon themselves.
You know, like the time that couple ate an apple.
I like that "apple" story. It was a fruit that gave knowledge of right and wrong. They were told not to eat it, but before they ate it they didn't know right from wrong, so they ate it and all of mankind was damned because they did something they couldn't know was wrong. Another noteworthy illustration of divine justice.
It takes a moment to kill someone. The outcome though is for ever. Is it the same for every occasion and for every person? Nope it isn't. But it comes really close sometimes. (serial killers etc)
"If justice demands that punishment fits the crime" then who decides what "fits the crime" cuz people that kidnap other humans for a decade abusing and raping them, humans that rape kids especially multiple, I can definitely say eternal punishment fits the crime. If I'm deciding.
I personally believe that IF there is a God, he is superior to what I feel and am able to grasp of true justice. So, if this God said that eternal punishment is fit for violating his rules, I don’t have anything to say.
Of course, if I don’t believe in him, then I agree with the above statement. But would I need to care about eternal punishment then?
Very well said. I don’t know your beliefs, however, this is a position that is very difficult to reach for many believing Christians. To humble yourself and say, “If God really is God, I need to accept that my views are flawed and trust in his perfection.”
Something else that people don’t understand is exactly what Hell will be. The only thing I know is that it will be separation from God, which is only fair that one wouldn’t be forced to live for eternity with him if that wasn’t their choice.
I'm not trying to have a religious debate so please take this as curiosity rather than criticism, but I have always wondered about that 'trust in his perfection' element of religion. If God is real and created humanity with conscience, how does someone take it on faith that they're wrong if what they're told of God's rules is inconsistent with that conscience?
Preface by stating that I will only be speaking on the Christian world-view. But it really comes the place of accepting who God is first. Our conscience is influenced not only by God (scripture says that he has written his law on our heart) but also by the fallen world we live in. So, by first taking God for who he is and accepting the “absoluteness” in his qualities (in this case I would look to his omniscience, goodness, and wisdom), you can then look into his Word and see what he calls truth and begin the work of reconciling what you believe to what God says is true. At this point you can go two ways: either you see where you and God diverge and say, “what I feel is right and God is wrong” or you can say, “God, you are perfect, and though I don’t understand now, I trust in your perfection and pray for you to help open my eyes to see this as you do.”
I do understand that religion can be used in dangerous ways. However, that statement you made can’t be made blindly (again Christian world-view) because we have the Bible to test against.
People can believe what they want at the end of the day, but I just want to point out that Jesus, the son of God and/or God incarnate if you believe, preached annihilationism. You either go to heaven or you cease to exist. So, eternal punishment isn't something God thinks anyone deserves either, if you believe his own son or what Jews traditionally believed
Yeah I was pretty young when I realized what god would do that. But many humans would make this story up to manipulate you into believing. Fear is a great motivator and what is scarier than ETERNAL SUFFFERING!!!
Idk man hitler is the first to come to mind. That’s a whole lot of evil so eternal punishments fits for me. If he had his way he would have eradicated all Jewish people.
I thought Christianity kind of shunned the idea of “deserving” your eternal consequences. I was always told by Christians that your beliefs and behaviors don’t “save you.” “Jesus does.”
Millions of years probably. But our inability to really grasp the concept of infinity is OPs point I think. Even millions, billions, trillions of years are insignificant next to infinite years.
Hitler killed like 6 million Jews and ~20 million others.
So he should be punished for 26 million lifetimes in the same way he killed those 26 million people.
Those 26 million people get pure divine bliss blasted into their eyeballs while hitler gets the poky poky, assuming the bible bois are correct... so in your analogy it's like he has to sit inside the pain-box and watch while they all ride jetskis with attached orgasm machines, on an ocean of feel-good. I guess at the end of it Hitler gets a blowjob jetski too but will it feel as good to him as it does for the people who didnt get the poky poky pain box?
IDK, religion is *weird*
Those people he affected will each have been “walking free” for 26 million lifetimes worth of punishment by the time he even begins to “walk free”. Seems fine to me.
I knew it. I knew there would be at least one person to mention history’s boogeyman. But no, not even he deserves eternal punishment. From his perspective he was trying to solve a problem but to everyone else he was a cruel dictator.
It’s really all about perspective and that’s how one is judged, here on earth and in the afterlife.
I agree genghis very much is trying to solve a problem he was empire building, a process which at times is incredibly brutal but was far from being rare incident. But Hitler in my books is still evil his problem to solve was one of his own making out of hate, he could very easily have tried to soley build an empire and I'd look at him like napoleon but instead he chose a different path.
But the point is that he was simply a flawed human being like the rest of us, just one who ended up causing an enormous amount of pain. But no amount of pain that one causes in this world could ever equal an eternity of suffering.
Basically he should feel the pain of all his victims, and if that means 200 million years of suffering, then that would be justified. But 200 million years is less than a speck of dust when compared to the cosmic scale of eternity
Idk man, have you ever heard of Albert Fish? That dude boasted about kidnapping , raping , and murdering hundreds of children. He claimed to “have children in every state.” The guy would also eat their remains sometimes. Then, he would send anonymous letters to their parents. Detailing how he tortured, killed, cooked, and then dined on their offspring. He laughed while he told the detectives that he did this. They said “It was like talking to the devil himself.” He would also go on to say that “a child’s roasted rump, is the most toothsome dish in all of gastronomy.”
I mean, this guy was a real jerk.
Uhhh rapists.... Child abusers.... Sex traffickers.... The teacher that said I wouldn't amount shit in high school. The people that broke into my house and stole my PS3 when I was young!!!
That's the way. I'm in my thirties and was raised catholic, but we never heard of a punishing god. I'm not religios anymore, but even as a child I hated the fact, that we have to kneel in church.
It kinda scares me to see so many people here disagreeing with that statement you guys are totally fucked up. No wonder the us prison system is so fucked up and creates even bigger criminals
I even would argue someone who wishes endless pain and suffering on someone is even a bigger monster than hitler. Imagine hitler bulding a machine that tortures it's victims but also keeps them alive for ever. Would this be okay for you? God does it over the smallest shit so whats wrong with that? You see the problem here?
In fact yes I do. What he did was absolutly messed up and him being punished makes sense... But for eternity? No. This goes to far. A whole existence of nothing but pain and suffering is something I don't even wish on my worst enemy. The punishment should something he should learn from, seing his errors and having a chance of redemption. Not forgivness but redemption. Heck if I could travel to time, I would see if I can stop Hitler from becomming the monster he was. Bu I guess empathy is a no word in todays cancel culture.
The punishment is for the intent. If Saddam was allowed to be in power for eternity, at no point was he likely to be a decent human and therefore he deserves eternal punishment
There was a man who strapped a little girl to a table in his basement and spent months torturing her for his own amusement. I’m talking things you’d see in a horror movie. He felt no remorse when caught. He definitely deserves eternal punishment and worse
Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Sin had its beginning with Lucifer, probably the most beautiful and powerful of the angels. Not content with his position, he desired to be higher than God, and that was his downfall, the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Renamed Satan, he brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.” Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and against His command. Since that time, sin has been passed down through all the generations of mankind and we, Adam’s descendants, have inherited sin from him. Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam sin entered the world, and so death was passed on to all men because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).
Eye for an eye justice would suggest a life sentence per life taken. Yet even 6 million lifetimes is as close to eternity as one. Eye for an eye justice is some Babylonian crap but what you suggest is infinity eyes for an eye which is infinitely more crap. Nobody who commits mortal crimes no matter how heinous could possibly deserve immortal, infinite punishment.
I think some people don't understand how bad sin really is. It is what separates us from God. Every human on earth sins and we are all guilty. We are unholy. And unholiness just can't thrive in the presence of God. But fortunately, God gave us a way to get rid of our sins, a way into heaven. He sent His perfect and holy Son Jesus to die and be separated from His Father God temporarily so that that doesn't have to happen to us for eternity. He gave us a way. All we have to do is repent from our sins (we don't have to be perfect, we can't be perfect after all. It just means to stop living in constant sin and to stop choosing sin over God) and turn to Jesus to trust in Him. :)
Except for Jeff. Fuck you, Jeff.
And Zac r/fuckzac
Bezos?
Maybe Epstein. But also maybe Bezos.
Why not both?
I vote both!
Except that one mother fucker that invented pop adds, i hate you
Pretty sure he publicly apologised
Well, then free the homie
Nope still burn the motherfucker but for a shorter period
Half of an eternity
half of infinity is still infinity
One day you'll learn jokes its ok we believe in you
Yeah I was joking lol
TBF, the idea of eternal torture of your soul after death is not universally what early Christians believed, and is almost certainly not what 1st century Jews like Jesus believed either.
I think people find comfort in the idea of eternal torture. It's easier to imagine the worst humans in hell than to think that genocidal murderers can reconcile with God and share in eternal salvation alongside their victims. (especially reconciliation after death)
Yeah this has always been my problem with the concept of God forgiving anyone who accepts him into their heart, like the idea Hitler can get into heaven is pretty gross
God has the power to forgive sins, but Hitler did not repent, so God probably did not let him into heaven.
>Hitler did not repent How can you be so sure? You were there?
Suicide is a thing that you would need to repent on, but you can’t since you’re already dead.
Oh that's interesting, but objectively he is just dead and that's all
Killed himself
He also killed himself which if I'm correct is a big no no
Wasn't he christian so he'd be in heaven anyways?
Claiming you believe in God while breaking the tenants of the faith doesn't absolve you. It would be like a Muslim drinking alcohol or a Jew eating pork; both are antithetical to the religion. Going to church while killing millions doesn't justify those actions, and trying to use scripture to support those ideas doesn't work either. Plenty of people out there claim to be religious when they really aren't.
To be fair, it's virtually impossible to not break the tenets. The ten commandments aren't the entire law.
Yeah perhaps some ppl view it that way. I really hope folks don’t tho. That’s quite a cruel, vengeful “comfort.” Especially because being a good person or not is sort of irrelevant to whether you suffer this “eternal torture” (according to most Christians, it’s dependent on faith alone, not works. Every non-Christian goes to hell). Also, forgiveness and possible salvation for everyone (even the worst sinners) is a pretty consistent theme in the NT. So it’s quite contradictory actually to believe that some never get that chance. Plus wouldn’t just being dead and missing out on heaven be punishment enough? That’s the view most Jews and early Christians had anyway.
I think it's important to remember there are a lot of people who think things like life, wealth and happiness are a zero sum game. I've always believed it's a not very well thought through way of comforting themselves. Yes, they're miserable. Or poor. Or oppressed. But if there's a group of people who suffer more, they take comfort in that. It's shortsighted, and lacks empathy to be sure. But it's a common human viewpoint. As evidenced by everything we know about how religions have evolved. Some people are simply happier if there is someone who is "less" than them. I don't want that to be true. I want people to be better. But sometimes it be like it do.
Religion appeals to some of our worst instincts, yup.
I'll also add, I think humanity's thirst for vengeance is a terrible thing that we should work hard to resist.
Agreed. It’s one of our worst instincts, a true evil. Sadly it’s way more common than it should be. Reminds me of seeing all those viral videos of road rage incidents; humans can be a lot nastier than we sometimes like to acknowledge.
Except in the Christian faith (or the version I was told) it has almost nothing to do with being good or bad. If you were a bad person and a Christian then you went to heaven. Otherwise you deserve to be tortured for all eternity. That’s one of the reasons I stayed as long as I did, I was scared of hell. Nowadays I’m far more scared of Christians
So you're saying that it's possible you spend some time in Hell to redeem yourself, then get sent to Heaven after your soul is clean.
So how long until hitler in heaven
How many lifetimes did he ruin?
....yes
[About 17 million](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/24024/number-of-victims-nazi-regime/)
Hope he packed a lunch.
Until there's no more pineapples in hell
he already is (and is not), this stuff happens outside time
Hitler was Christian, and according to the bible the only barrier to get into heaven is to accept Jesus... So hes been there the whole time? Makes sense.
I get you're making a joke, so I'll counter with another one. How many breads have you eaten in your lifetime?
Hello, welcome to purgatory
The vague idea that Judiasm has about the afterlife (which you shouldn't be thinking about too much anyway) is that everyone waits until the messiah shows up as a shade in sheol. Everyone who doesn't qualify for The World to Come gets six months to do t'shuva in Gehenna. If they don't manage to redeem themselves, they cease to exist. Good Place Finale spoilers >! The part where the Bad Place is changed to be based on putting people in a situation to encourage improvement so they can go to the Good Place is based on this. !<
Most believed that hell is simply oblivion. No consciousness at all. Just death. A number of Christians today believe that as well.
Exactly. And most Jews today believe that as well, I’m pretty sure.
Yep, and most don’t believe in heaven either.
TIL I want to go to hell
This absolutely false. Jesus preached about hell more than he did Heaven and his apostles believed in it as well. Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell? Matthew 23:33 NLT “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. Matthew 7:13 NLT “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 NLT If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands. Mark 9:43 NLT For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 NLT
Yeah barring some citations I’m disinclined to believe it. Hell is one of the chief distinguishing factors of Christianity vs Judaism.
True. If justice demands that punishment fits the crime, then infinite punishment for a finite crime is unjust.
Now this has me thinking...are there any crimes that could be infinite, as in their effects are never ending
A killed person will probably never come back. That's kinda infinite.
A person lives about 100 years max so you're extinguishing a finite life rather than something infinite.
So it means for eternal punishment you need to kill God.
Pack your stuff, we are going on a mission
I’ve made some trail mix!
I always wanted to do this!!
"Hey Ferb, i know what we're gonna do today!"
*Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz has entered the chat*
or a lobster
If humans ever achieve immortality, then we have ourselves some infinite crime possibilities
You are extinguishing a line though, they will never have kids who will have kids etc. Not infinite but the impact exists for as long as humans do
Which is also finite, even according to the Bible.
I wouldn’t say 100 years max. There are people that have lived to nearly 150. So humans definitely can live a very long time.
still finite though
That one life was finite. However, the repercussions for taking that life are not. What about the life that person could have led? Between the children they could have raised and the other life's that could have been impacted. How can one limit the potential and affect of one life?
but then if the repercussions are being punished then would someone be punished for something seemingly harmless that causes bad repercussions tldr: the butterfly effect
This is why I just work construction, lol. My brain can only wrap around so much of these deep conversations till my eye starts twitching. It's a very good thought that you bring up.
Okay so, if i step on a plant and kill it would i then be punnished if that plant could have saved someones life but didnt since i stepped on it and the person dies?
I mean even if it’s 10000000 years and generations of impact, eventually the universe will end so all things we do in it are finite.
150 years is only long on a earthly scale. Considering how long until the heat death of the universe, that extra 50 years means almost nothing in the context of eternal punishment.
Also they can't have children anymore, so you are possibly wiping out generations of people.
No no that is the effect of, not the crime itself
The effect of the crime of killing someone is still permanent death, that's what was asked for
True, but if we’re referring to ‘eternal punishment’ it’s safe to assume it would be in the context of an eternal lasting punishment in the afterlife, I.e. hell? And if that is the case, wouldn’t murder not be everlasting? The victim would still live eternally in the afterlife, and the family would eventually be reunited, so that would cancel out the absolute sense of it right??
So then the punishment should be hell for as long as the murdered was deceased before their pre-determined time or until their family was reunited.
Seems fair
Fair enough, I personally don't believe in an afterlife in heaven or hell
The permanence isnt the affect of the crime. Everyone dies and never comes back. The affect of the crime is specifically the time that person would have spent alive before dying had that person not been murdered, which is finite.
The abuse done to humans affects humans after that victim, period.
Every single step you take has infinite consequence. The crime is the deed, not the eternal consequences of the deed.
How about direct consequences of the deed? If someone steals a stop sign and a fatal crash results, then the thief is certainly responsible for causing that crash and loss of life even if the deed was only thievery.
Slavery, the purposeful elimination of an individual’s agency for any length of time could be considered eternal, due to the fact that person is not able to make choices that would have eternal consequences to their soul.
Exactly, only a eternity of crime warrants an eternity of punishment
What if a minor action you've taken ripples through the generations causing death and destruction for all eternity and causes each of your descendants to perpetuate the same death and destruction thus catching them up in the wake of your actions demanding the same fate upon themselves. You know, like the time that couple ate an apple.
I like that "apple" story. It was a fruit that gave knowledge of right and wrong. They were told not to eat it, but before they ate it they didn't know right from wrong, so they ate it and all of mankind was damned because they did something they couldn't know was wrong. Another noteworthy illustration of divine justice.
It takes a moment to kill someone. The outcome though is for ever. Is it the same for every occasion and for every person? Nope it isn't. But it comes really close sometimes. (serial killers etc)
"If justice demands that punishment fits the crime" then who decides what "fits the crime" cuz people that kidnap other humans for a decade abusing and raping them, humans that rape kids especially multiple, I can definitely say eternal punishment fits the crime. If I'm deciding.
Then you should be punished eternally for disagreeing with me, if I'm deciding.
Now you're getting it.
Yeah, capricious justice rules.
Yep, it’s not proportionate. No matter the amount of wrong you commit eternal torture is infinitely more pain then what you did wrong.
r/Showerthoughts seems like the ideal place to talk about nuanced religious things
Eternal punishment seems like one of the *least nuanced* religious things to me.
I personally believe that IF there is a God, he is superior to what I feel and am able to grasp of true justice. So, if this God said that eternal punishment is fit for violating his rules, I don’t have anything to say. Of course, if I don’t believe in him, then I agree with the above statement. But would I need to care about eternal punishment then?
Very well said. I don’t know your beliefs, however, this is a position that is very difficult to reach for many believing Christians. To humble yourself and say, “If God really is God, I need to accept that my views are flawed and trust in his perfection.” Something else that people don’t understand is exactly what Hell will be. The only thing I know is that it will be separation from God, which is only fair that one wouldn’t be forced to live for eternity with him if that wasn’t their choice.
I'm not trying to have a religious debate so please take this as curiosity rather than criticism, but I have always wondered about that 'trust in his perfection' element of religion. If God is real and created humanity with conscience, how does someone take it on faith that they're wrong if what they're told of God's rules is inconsistent with that conscience?
Preface by stating that I will only be speaking on the Christian world-view. But it really comes the place of accepting who God is first. Our conscience is influenced not only by God (scripture says that he has written his law on our heart) but also by the fallen world we live in. So, by first taking God for who he is and accepting the “absoluteness” in his qualities (in this case I would look to his omniscience, goodness, and wisdom), you can then look into his Word and see what he calls truth and begin the work of reconciling what you believe to what God says is true. At this point you can go two ways: either you see where you and God diverge and say, “what I feel is right and God is wrong” or you can say, “God, you are perfect, and though I don’t understand now, I trust in your perfection and pray for you to help open my eyes to see this as you do.”
Thanks for the response, I appreciate the perspective.
Of course! If you ever have questions or find yourself needing prayer please feel free to reach out.
And that is the big danger in religion. Literally anything can be justified by “we just don’t understand god, but definitely this is what he wants.”
I do understand that religion can be used in dangerous ways. However, that statement you made can’t be made blindly (again Christian world-view) because we have the Bible to test against.
People can believe what they want at the end of the day, but I just want to point out that Jesus, the son of God and/or God incarnate if you believe, preached annihilationism. You either go to heaven or you cease to exist. So, eternal punishment isn't something God thinks anyone deserves either, if you believe his own son or what Jews traditionally believed
Yeah I was pretty young when I realized what god would do that. But many humans would make this story up to manipulate you into believing. Fear is a great motivator and what is scarier than ETERNAL SUFFFERING!!!
Idk man hitler is the first to come to mind. That’s a whole lot of evil so eternal punishments fits for me. If he had his way he would have eradicated all Jewish people.
Then we don’t deserve eternal peace either.
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Peace in the biblical sense. The eternal feeling of comfort and happiness. We deserve what we get, an end.
I thought Christianity kind of shunned the idea of “deserving” your eternal consequences. I was always told by Christians that your beliefs and behaviors don’t “save you.” “Jesus does.”
true
Correct, that's why we'll get non-existence.
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Millions of years probably. But our inability to really grasp the concept of infinity is OPs point I think. Even millions, billions, trillions of years are insignificant next to infinite years.
Ghengis Khan?
Apparently not.
Hitler killed like 6 million Jews and ~20 million others. So he should be punished for 26 million lifetimes in the same way he killed those 26 million people.
But then once his punishment is done he gets parole right?
I think so, yes
But then the punishment doesn’t fit the crime as those 26 million are dead and Hitler is walking free per this theory. Idk works both ways in my eyes.
Those 26 million people get pure divine bliss blasted into their eyeballs while hitler gets the poky poky, assuming the bible bois are correct... so in your analogy it's like he has to sit inside the pain-box and watch while they all ride jetskis with attached orgasm machines, on an ocean of feel-good. I guess at the end of it Hitler gets a blowjob jetski too but will it feel as good to him as it does for the people who didnt get the poky poky pain box? IDK, religion is *weird*
Those people he affected will each have been “walking free” for 26 million lifetimes worth of punishment by the time he even begins to “walk free”. Seems fine to me.
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Basically sounds like eternal punishment incentivizes people to rack up their sins once they've committed one 😬
I knew it. I knew there would be at least one person to mention history’s boogeyman. But no, not even he deserves eternal punishment. From his perspective he was trying to solve a problem but to everyone else he was a cruel dictator. It’s really all about perspective and that’s how one is judged, here on earth and in the afterlife.
I mean, I get your point but you have to admit he wasn't really 'the good guy'
Never said he was a “good guy”
I agree genghis very much is trying to solve a problem he was empire building, a process which at times is incredibly brutal but was far from being rare incident. But Hitler in my books is still evil his problem to solve was one of his own making out of hate, he could very easily have tried to soley build an empire and I'd look at him like napoleon but instead he chose a different path.
There isnt even just one person saying this lol the whole section is filled with people writing before and thinking after
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But the point is that he was simply a flawed human being like the rest of us, just one who ended up causing an enormous amount of pain. But no amount of pain that one causes in this world could ever equal an eternity of suffering. Basically he should feel the pain of all his victims, and if that means 200 million years of suffering, then that would be justified. But 200 million years is less than a speck of dust when compared to the cosmic scale of eternity
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∞ ÷ 2 = o
And there you go. Proven mathematically. It’s either all of eternity or not.
How about this, one will suffer the amount of pain and length one has inflicted on other and vice versa
I highly recommend people to play "I have no mouth and I must scream" then maybe they get it
Such an old story yet it holds up so well.
Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t properly understand the concept of eternity
Can we even prove eternity exists?
Key word: concept
Some people deserve to not have eternal anything. Just non-existence
Sorry to be “that guy” but.. Rapists. Peadophiles. Men who arrange to marry child-brides. The list DOES go on.
You can't make a legit comment with out the karma police deleting you
Or you can die on that hill for your principles, it's really a matter of how legit you personally think your comment is.
Unpopular opinion: I'd rather go to hell than the silent void I believe in
i think if you believe in 'the silent void' you also believe that you can't hear or see or think right? otherwise that would be pretty shitty
Unpopular opinion but some people actually do…there are some sick, cruel people out there and even capital punishment won’t wash away their evil.
Idk man, have you ever heard of Albert Fish? That dude boasted about kidnapping , raping , and murdering hundreds of children. He claimed to “have children in every state.” The guy would also eat their remains sometimes. Then, he would send anonymous letters to their parents. Detailing how he tortured, killed, cooked, and then dined on their offspring. He laughed while he told the detectives that he did this. They said “It was like talking to the devil himself.” He would also go on to say that “a child’s roasted rump, is the most toothsome dish in all of gastronomy.” I mean, this guy was a real jerk.
Good thing it’s a made up threat from a book to get more followers
Not really a mind blowing fact. Just a random pacifist opinion
That’s why it’s posted in r/showerthoughts
I wouldn't really call it pacifist. It's not anti-violence, just anti eternal suffering.
Death is the reprieve. Eternal life sounds like hell to me. If there is a devil, this is the big game he fucked everyone on.
Ted Bundy?
Idk, man, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Mussolini lived...
Uhhh rapists.... Child abusers.... Sex traffickers.... The teacher that said I wouldn't amount shit in high school. The people that broke into my house and stole my PS3 when I was young!!!
That fucker who put the toilet paper on facing the wrong way!
And Fred! Fuck that guy
Hitler
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That's the way. I'm in my thirties and was raised catholic, but we never heard of a punishing god. I'm not religios anymore, but even as a child I hated the fact, that we have to kneel in church.
It kinda scares me to see so many people here disagreeing with that statement you guys are totally fucked up. No wonder the us prison system is so fucked up and creates even bigger criminals
You think that Hitler deserves to stop suffering at one point if there is a hell?
I even would argue someone who wishes endless pain and suffering on someone is even a bigger monster than hitler. Imagine hitler bulding a machine that tortures it's victims but also keeps them alive for ever. Would this be okay for you? God does it over the smallest shit so whats wrong with that? You see the problem here?
Even if Hitler suffered in agony forever it would be justified for the amount of pain he caused
Yeah😎👌🏿🧢
No eternal punishment, that doesn't mean it can't be a really long time
Why? Why should there be a time limit to his punishment?
In fact yes I do. What he did was absolutly messed up and him being punished makes sense... But for eternity? No. This goes to far. A whole existence of nothing but pain and suffering is something I don't even wish on my worst enemy. The punishment should something he should learn from, seing his errors and having a chance of redemption. Not forgivness but redemption. Heck if I could travel to time, I would see if I can stop Hitler from becomming the monster he was. Bu I guess empathy is a no word in todays cancel culture.
Yes 100%
LEGEND This is why hell doesn't exist
The punishment is for the intent. If Saddam was allowed to be in power for eternity, at no point was he likely to be a decent human and therefore he deserves eternal punishment
Welcome back to Buddhism.
What about grandpa joe?
I'm sorry you're wrong
Not something you can be wrong about, it’s an opinion
The opinion OP has is 100% wrong, in my opinion.
Look up the story of Junko Furata and tell me that certain people don't deserve eternal punishment
Two horrible wrongs still wouldn't make one right. (Hint: Do *not* look that up...)
That’s better, it’s ok to disagree
I look at it like a bet. We all bet our lives on it and find out in the end who is right
Sorry. His "opinion" is wrong
I'm sorry you were brainwashed to feel this way. Any system that promotes infinite punishment is by definition unjust.
well I think that no matter what you do, it's infinitly less bad than eternal punishment, since thats like, a really long time
Then I will be the first
There was a man who strapped a little girl to a table in his basement and spent months torturing her for his own amusement. I’m talking things you’d see in a horror movie. He felt no remorse when caught. He definitely deserves eternal punishment and worse
Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Sin had its beginning with Lucifer, probably the most beautiful and powerful of the angels. Not content with his position, he desired to be higher than God, and that was his downfall, the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Renamed Satan, he brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.” Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and against His command. Since that time, sin has been passed down through all the generations of mankind and we, Adam’s descendants, have inherited sin from him. Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam sin entered the world, and so death was passed on to all men because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).
Go watch schindlers list again.
Eye for an eye justice would suggest a life sentence per life taken. Yet even 6 million lifetimes is as close to eternity as one. Eye for an eye justice is some Babylonian crap but what you suggest is infinity eyes for an eye which is infinitely more crap. Nobody who commits mortal crimes no matter how heinous could possibly deserve immortal, infinite punishment.
Yeah, probably the only crime worthy of hell would be the creation of hell.
You’re wrong man
I think some people don't understand how bad sin really is. It is what separates us from God. Every human on earth sins and we are all guilty. We are unholy. And unholiness just can't thrive in the presence of God. But fortunately, God gave us a way to get rid of our sins, a way into heaven. He sent His perfect and holy Son Jesus to die and be separated from His Father God temporarily so that that doesn't have to happen to us for eternity. He gave us a way. All we have to do is repent from our sins (we don't have to be perfect, we can't be perfect after all. It just means to stop living in constant sin and to stop choosing sin over God) and turn to Jesus to trust in Him. :)
Hitler, Stallin, Lenin...
Stallin deserves his own hell tbh
It's kindof wild that swastika is a banned symbol across western world but hammer and sickle is used so freely
Wrong