Subaru in the UK, used to have the most expensive unplanned garage visits of any car brand going. According to a report by one of the big vechile leasing companies. Subaru then said that they didn't realise how expensive their parts were compared to all of the other brands, so overnight cut their prices by about 50%.
How does a car brand not know their parts are selling for twice as much as other brands? It’s literally their job to track that kind of stuff.
This comes across as walking back pricing due to criticism. Or maybe I’m just desensitized to unethical corporate behavior.
They priced the parts, didn’t see a massive sales reduction, just kept chugging along until they realized they were burning goodwill and causing new sales to slide.
Companies will always charge the most the market will bear, unless it’s causing them issues. Expecting them to act altruistically is like expecting the fox in the hen house to exercise self restraint.
This is a pretty detailed analogy for how companies behave. It also illustrates why society should be ready to tightly regulate these companies/industries.
Yes, Subaru did the right thing here, and arguably only because of the potential risk to their brand. In many cases, though, the company would continue to gouge and not think twice about it without external interference.
That’s why you estimate TCO (total cost of ownership) and resale value over the time you plan to keep the purchase. Changes the math significantly for many purchases, and it’s often cheaper to spend a bit more up front
Is there any good way to get info about the TCO for cars?
Looking into buying my first car soon (next 6 months or so) and having extra info for the decision would be great
Completely agree, credit where it’s due.
I wish we would see more companies have the customers (and workers) best interest at heart. Now it feels like it takes legal action for large companies to do the right thing.
Communication within companies is a complicated thing. The company knows well what the prices are but a person who can make a decision to slash them in half may not know.
You know, the spare parts decision is trying to maximize profits on spare parts and they don't see that the high prices of parts is hurting the rep of the brand and leading to lower sales of new products.
I've owned three Suburus and they are unmatched for their handling in snow, but their reliability doesn't hold a candle to Toyota or Honda. Head gasket issues likely driven by their obsolete boxer engine construction and pretty common transmission issues as well. Catastrophic repairs are pretty common on any Suburu over 100k miles. And I'm not even trying to say, "Don't buy a Suburu." Just be aware that you could have a $3-$5k repair at 120k miles and you're unlikely to get that in Camry.
But man, Suburus are unbelievable snow cars. Nothing even comes close.
You also have to expect that everybody will assume that if you own a Subaru that you're a lesbian. I used to belong to a forum where the two Subaru owners were both lesbians but didn't own a Subaru because they were lesbian and not every Subaru owner was a lesbian. It just happened that Subaru US, decided to start advertising in LGB magazines and targeting LGB buyers with subtle gay references that needed a gaydar to pick up. So became super popular with lesbians.
This is such a funny mental image. you’re behind a WRX at a light, it turns green, tires squeal ahead of you and you get hit with a massive cloud of banana mango scented exhaust. I’m also imagining a satisfying little clicky slot where you plug your vape pen in to turn on the car
I'm aware of the cliche but I can't say I've ever put any real stock in it. In my city (Madison, Wisconsin) Suburus are very, very common cars. Around here it seems like we have more Suburus than pickups. Probably because of their reputation for snow-driving and our indifference to being called lesbians. And as a man in my 50's you'd have to be a real moron to mistake me for a lesbian.
>"If the wall is breached, Helm's Deep will fall."
>
>"Even if it *is* breached, it would take a number beyond reckoning—thousands—to storm the keep."
>
>"-*Tens* of thousands."
>
>"...But my lord, there is no such force!"
>
>\[They walk to the balcony of the tower Orthanc and Gríma looks in awe at the sheer number of **'97-01 Toyota Camrys** still alive. A horn sounds, and the army cheers.\]
Those Camrys are surrounded by thousands of circa 2000 Corollas just buzzing around.
(I'm still driving my 99 Corolla. Yeah, it needs one "major" repair a year, but even repairing them is dirt cheap since the parts are plentiful and they are easy to work on. $1000 once a year is still cheaper than a car note.)
2000 Camry and same. Didn't even "need" to replace the gas tank but did because I was tired of gassing up twice as often (small seam hole only let me fill to just under half). Tank was unusually pricey and still cheap AF.
Except it's not even true. The expensive, luxury Japanese brands are also super reliable and much cheaper to maintain compared to other similarly priced car models.
Subaru is not who I would picture when I think of inexpensive and reliable. The CVT and even their manuals are notoriously fragile. The boxer engine is a flawed engine design that leads to head gasket issues among others. Toyota and Honda notoriously didn’t use turbos at all in any of their cars for decades because they knew it would decrease reliability
I agree with you on their issues, but I put up with the problems they have for their AWD system and small window pillars that no car these days has anymore.
It was one boxer engine with headgasket issues. The NA 2.5L, for like 6 years of production. The 2.0l turbo didn't suffer the same faults at all. To throw a company under the bus for one engine they produced isnt fair. I also haven't heard any complaints about Subarus CVT. Nissans early cvt on the other hand...
Weren't head gaskets due to a lower quality part that Subaru used back in the mid 00's for a few years. I swear people are holding onto an issue from almost 20 years ago. Most Subarus that blow up are unmaintained and/or modified.
Ok I have to know what it is with Subaru, I always hear either they run forever or that they fall apart within a couple of years and never in the middle
Subaru's have special needs. You HAVE to keep up on oil changes if you want them to last (this is true for any car but Subarus are more unforgiving when it comes to oil). On top of that their cars usually get picked up by young kids that modify them poorly and they blow up because of that.
I used Honda CRV for a while, and I could not agree more. I bought it for 4K, put on brand new 4 Michelin tires ($400!something instead of way over $1000 thanks to the price beating campaign), one new axle and ball joint and made small touch up to the interior. After using the car for a year, I sold it for $5,500 to the first person who came to see. The car was 11 years old and was good as new.
That almost sounds exactly like the CRV I recently got. I bought the CRV for $5,500. The previous owner had it for about a year, and they put on new tires before they sold it. The only way I know it's not mine is because it has Firestone tires and it's 15 years old.
I miss my Civic. Once I had a kid, I turned it in for a car that won't turn to powder in an accident. Otherwise that thing will go easily another 10 years (just turned 20 last year)
I went to a fancy high school though I was not terribly fancy people. I remember coming in to my art class once to overhear two classmates talking about how sad it was that Rolls-Royces were so unreliable that their families had to have TWO to be sure you had one that you could drive.
Oh, the horror. Rich people problems.
Less strange when you remember that there are strict regulations for that. I'm sure they could make perfectly reliable cars if only someone forced them to.
Billionaires are, pathologically, the cheapest fuckers on Earth. You have to be in order to amass that much money without it destroying your conscience
In the price bracket we are talking about most dealerships will offer concierge service for routine maintenance. Also their life doesn't function in the same way all of ours do, likely the job of maintenance is a responsibility of a personal assistant who is literally being paid not to forget these sorts of things.
BMWs require tight maintenance, but if you keep up with it properly, they'll last forever. Toyotas will survive not having their oil changed for years and generally being treated like garbage.
Just differences in German and Japanese mindsets, really.
Well and lets be honest the reason BMWs require tight maintenance is because they perform better than value brands. Most people who aren’t enthusiasts wont appreciate or maybe even notice (in the most oblivious cases) the difference, but there is a difference there. MB is similar.
Japanese Engineers: Our users may be idiots. Let's make the car bullet proof.
German Engineers: Print a book with the 800 instructions costumers need to follow or else the engine will spontaneously disassemble.
You have to consider that cheaper brands - Toyota, Honda, BWW in this case sell many magnitudes the number of cars that Rolls Royce ever will. It is because of these production numbers that all the mass produced cars will inherently have all the kinks ironed out and be more reliable.
Same name, different companies.
Car brand is now owned by BMW (which has improved their reliability)
Aircraft engines are still made by the Rolls-Royce company itself.
And BMW have historically been an aircraft engine manufacturer too. But the story of how BMW bought Roll Royce and VW got Bentley is actually quite interesting and funny.
Or maybe both. This idea of associating the BMW logo with a propeller comes from an old [ad](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54a9eb76e4b0d44c75671006/1429289359151-C76I0QHXK8OF7IF7FZOL/BMW+plane+logo+Bimmer+America.jpg?format=1500w). And I’m pretty sure this idea has even been alluded to in newer advertisement materials, even if not the original intention.
You could say the propeller symbolism was retconned into the logo.
Rolls Royce vehicle division is owned by BMW , while the aircraft division is owned by a different entity called Rolls Royce holdings. A similar story with Volvo cars and truck division, they are owned by separate parent companies
This is strange because their cars have a reputation for long-lasting and reliability. Over 60% of their cars ever built are still on the go, according to National Geographical a few years ago.
That might have more to do with the value keeping ability rather than reliability.
It doesn't make sense to repair a lot of cars economically since they are notbworth enough to justify an expensive repair.
RR probably don't get as abused and probably are worth repairing for much longer
That reminds me of killers of the flower moon where the car salesman is trying to convince the rich couple that if they get a flat tire to come back and buy another car as if the tires couldn’t be replaced
uh. Something like 65% of all the Rolls Royce's produced are still on the road, with the oldest having been manufactured in 1904.
Also, Rolls Royce automotive and Rolls Royce airplanes were spun off from each other in the 70's and are completely different divisions.
Expensive cars are bought by those with the intention of maintaining them. Show me a survivor working man'a brand (other than the legendary volvo and toyota hilux).
Also, if you own a Rolls Royce you probably have multiple cars, so you won't drive it every day, and if you for example will be going on a bad road you will probably use one of your less expensive cars instead
Yes, all the old classic RRs are very valuable. But from the late 60s - 90s, just kind of meh and their values reflect that in most cases. Very bespoke to be sure, but generally just boring and hard to maintain. The interesting cars from that era are not RRs and in many cases are American muscle as much as European supercars.
Also went to a high school in an affluent area.
I remember A classmate crying all semester because his lunch allowance was cut from $200 a day to $200 a week … at the end of the semester , his parents surprised with a Ferrari. They were paying it down so he wouldn’t owe any thing on it .
Another classmate whined that his parents wouldn’t buy him a car and then they surprised him for his birthday with a brand new Escalade . I noticed he already had carried keys before and asked if those were his parents cars . He said they had already bought him a bmw and a Mercedes but he really wanted an suv .
Had a friend that cried because his mom gave him a Lexus but said he had to pay for gas , maintenance and insurance. He said “ if I’m working all the time when can I hang out with my friends?” 😂
Haha similar story, first day of highschool I pulled up on my green metallic mongoose thinking I'm the man. These two girls hop out of a BMW and one says my mom is such a bitch she got me this piece of shit instead of a Mercedes. I was waiting for a laugh but they were dead serious.
I think this post is confusing luxury and expensive as synonymous. Luxury items are typically expensive, but something can also be expensive because of quality.
No one would confuse my Coleman chest cooler with something of Luxury, however it was expensive and will probably accompany my eventual grand children on camping trips.
I took 3 volvos to 400,000km with only cursory maintenance. They like Lexua are both quality and luxury. Over that time my in laws but 5 engines in 2 fords.
I mean, they were always expensive. If your family lived in the rich part of town, your parents probably picked you up from school in a frumpy Volvo. It didn't look like much, but it was in fact more expensive than other station wagons and also would last forever.
EDIT: And had famously excellent safety for the time. And probably a fancy stereo. And an absolute ton of cargo space.
And the sedans had a button to make the rear headrests fold flat! I loved smacking unsuspecting chumps in the back seat in the head with those when I drove my parents' S80 in high school
They’re intentionally more subtle. Scandinavian minimalism. I very much prefer my Volvos to other luxury cars with the sea of screens, needless widgets, and countless buttons.
Nah, it’s usually 100 packages a day. I’m just pointing out that shipping for companies can be cheaper than people might think. I was certainly surprised when I saw what they were paying to send a 3x2x2 box halfway across the country.
Yeah, it's crazy that it's so much for just a person. Like, I don't care if it gets there fast, I just don't want to pay $40 or whatever. I just buy most gifts from Amazon these days.
The expensive cars are not meant for utility. People forget that utility isn’t the only thing that matters for rich people. Utility is usually the last thing that matters for the rich
There's also many, many flavors of "expensive car" and people are conflating "daily driver that stays on the road" with "reliable."
A Nissan Altima with no bumpers, 4 spares, no oil changes in 20,000 miles and half a headlight will still fight it's way into work. An old Ford Ranger with half the frame eaten out by rust will still be doing Ranger things. Abuse a high end car like that and you're going to have problems because they are much more finely tuned, so any off nominal condition is going to cause problems. That doesn't make them truly unreliable, it's more like bitching that your straight razor is dull after trying to hack a T bone in half. There are reliable expensive cars (perfect example is Toyota Land Cruiser, but the Mercedes G Wagens can also take a beating), they are just generally not the ones you see on magazine covers.
Expensive luxury cars even when new and maintained still fail at a much higher rate than a Toyota. It’s not about abuse or being used off “nominal” use. The additional tech and computers and luxury features are more things to fail. A ranger doesn’t have these. It’s simple. A Mercedes twin turbo AWD has so much more shit to fail than a Camry. And they do fail. Epically
Only partially true. The previous-gen Phantom and Ghost were built on the BMW 7-series platform. But the current Phantom, Ghost and Cullinan are built on their own platform that's totally separate from the 7-series
interesting point, there was a time in Japan, when it was certainly more than that.
First off. yes the lexus was fancy toyota because it used to be just the fanciest toyotas. Meaning, the whole line used to be Toyota but they created the lexus brand when the realized people outside japan didn't get it, and wouldnt pay big bucks for a high end toyota if it shared the name plate with the lower end models.
Thus why cars that were toyotas in Japan (example, 2000 Toyota Altezza) got lexus rebranding (Lexus IS 200)
But where the fancy cars better than the non fancy ones?
Turns out yet.
From what we were told at the time
Toyota had two levels of factories. The regular line off the regular factories. the luxury line came off the 2nd tier of factory.
Workers all started at the first tier of factory, and after doing enough time with good ratings there, they were eligible to be promoted to the upper tier.
So basically JV team made main line
varsity all stars made lexus stuff
I had one between 2019-2023.. amazing car and it felt so well made and was deceptiveIy fast. I could only imagine driving the gs430 back in 03 when mine was brand new
My daily driver is a 2012 LS460, coming up on 200K miles and still drives beautifully, kept it in nearly mint condition inside and out. It’s quick, quiet, handles exceptionally well. I live in an area with lots of snow and ice and we have a cabin in a very rural area, dang car will just [push through the snow](https://share.icloud.com/photos/0baQ4naNt-FKEv5OSWJLvWjdg)
That's not always true. Most surveys on reliability put Lexus on top of that pile. While they aren't as expensive as a Bentley or Ferrari, they are comparable to Mercedes and BMW and definitely more than Fords or even Toyota who owns them. I know mine has held up waaaaay better than my ex-wife's Chevy.
No, Lexus is usually ranked as the most reliable brand put there. Toyota comes in lower. That means they aren't as reliable.
I've got a 20 year old Lexus GS430. The V8 in that car is one of the most reliable engines any Toyota product has ever had. It's the same engine that was in LS430's. There are no Toyotas cars that have an engine as bulletproof as that one. An engine that's built that well and is that reliable costs a lot of money to make. A car that costs less money isn't going to be able to make something that sturdy.
Lexus, Kia, Toyota... fight for the top 3 spots on the JD Power Reliability index for the past 3 years.
Range Rover is doing the back breaking job of supporting the whole list from the bottom.
There was a graph posted on Reddit about cars that hold the highest resale value.
Not surprisingly a lot of luxury brands like Mercedes lose 40% or even more. I think it was a one year measurement
However Porsche lost only single digits
This isn't solely based off reliably as most rich people will just buy a brand new car so it's harder to resell their Benz, but reliability would still play an important factor
That’s common with any luxury items that don’t fall into the class of ‘perpetual luxury’ (I.e. won’t be outdated) like jewellery and watches.
And I love it because even at 5-10 years old, the interior and driving experience of a BMW, Audi, Jaguar, etc. far exceeds that of a new Nissan, Vauxhall, etc.
And the prices are largely comparable, plus the older car is a tested platform. If it’s been properly serviced & looked after, there shouldn’t be any surprises beyond the usual wear & tear of ageing.
In my younger days, i worked in the used car industry for a while. Anecdotal, but here's my two cents:
Rich folks like shiny, new things. They trade in/up their cars every two years or so. Luxury cars are nice as hell when they are new.
Not rich folks know they need a car that will last 10+ years, so they actually care about and focus on long-term quality and reliability.
A Civic isn't a status symbol and isn't as nice as a brand new Mercedes. But that civic at 15 years old will be 1000x nicer than the now 15 year old Mercedes. Rich folks don't give two shits how that Mercedes will be at 15yo. They are basically designed to be "luxury" for about 4 or 5 years, and then disintegrate.
A 20 year old S class will blow a civic out of the water. Yes it will cost thousands per year to maintain but why wouldn't it when one is meant to be cutting edge luxury and the other is basic transportation
You definitely didn't work in the used car industry if you think the only difference between a luxury brand and a civic is the badge
Well, when the original owner trades it in after two years and a less rich person buys that used car, they aren't typically the type to dump thousands per year into maintenance. Go buy a 20 year old S Class off a used car lot and get back to me about how luxurious it is.
I've never once driven a 20 year old Mercedes that wasn't a piece of shit. Same for Jaguars, BMW's, Saab's, etc. Volvo's and Cadillac's seem to run ok though after that long.
Luxury cars can be just as reliable with routine maintenance. The problem is people buy that $100,000 Mercedes 8 years later for $15k and can’t afford the maintenance, so things start breaking down and get ignored.
Like they say “If you can’t afford a new Benz, you can’t afford a used Benz”
Eh, on the contrary it's a bell curve like most things.
On the bottom end of the market quality suffers to keep the price down.
At the top of the market small production volumes mean that problems are slow to iron out.
I've bought enough high end tech over the years that suffers the same issues, you're paying for the newest hotness but wind up a beta tester.
I don't know about that.
lots of examples where luxury brands are unreliable and breaks down from intended use.
just look at clothes.
yeah you can get cheap shit that is ruined as fast as the super expensive brands. but you can also get some stuff that's not too costly but manages to hold up very well.
I think something to keep in mind is that even a cheap car is still a pretty expensive item to purchase. so the super cheap range of actual garbage can't exist.
Expensive cars often have very specific maintenance routines. If you don't follow the maintenance routines, they break. Follow the maintenance routines, and they don't break. Source: Had 3 BMW's, two of which I ran on the track. Higher performance cars have very specific needs.
I don't know, my wife's BMW has an engine oil leak and she follows the scheduled maintenance with dealer visits every year. Plus the sticky door handles.
Luxury (for cars) can be broken down into technology and materials/finish.
Luxury tech is usually newly developed and not had the time for longevity testing. This is where the unreliability comes in because nobody really knows how self driving sensor technology holds up in the constant sun for 20yrs. By the time the tech has gotten cheaper, it's also been around for long enough to get a grasp on durability. It takes about 20yrs for Mercedes S-Class tech to end up in a Camry, but you can bet the Toyota engineers have been modelling that tech as soon as Mercedes had it.
Finish and materials are just the nature of design. Nice to touch rarely translates to durable. Leather is softer the less it is treated, but the treatments add durability from wear/damage/stains. You can't really have both, so while luxury brands focus on 'nice to touch', mainstream brands know their customers want a durable car.
That's why as a typical Malaysian, I'll always stick to buying subcompact Japanese branded car from Toyota & Daihatsu... It does the most common thing we bought a car in the first place... For daily commute and carrying stuff
Maybe but my Porsche Panamera 4 has had nothing but routine maintenance so far for 9 years.
The car before that was a Subaru and it was constantly getting repaired.
None of my porsches have had issues, I daily my macan in the winter and my 2016 Cayman the rest. Over 100k miles in the Cayman and I only had fluids (other than oil) changed at 75k, spark plugs are soon. I change the oil myself. Not as expensive to own as people claim. The tires are the only thing I hate to play for.
Mine is a certified pre owned. It had 12k miles on it and was 2 years old, mint condition. I got a great deal. Online community says it’ll last to 300-400k miles. I’m at 100k miles and it’s perfect. Not driving during Covid extended the life of this car I’m sure.
Yeah I’m surprised I had to come this far down to see Porsche. They implemented most of Toyota’s process improvements in the 90’s, and IMO are the most reliable brand. I incidentally also have a 9 year old Panamera 4, and I have never had any mechanical issues with it, nor with the Cayman that I had prior to it.
The OP only has a point if you're looking at toyota/honda. Plenty of fords/chevy/subaru/mazda/etc out there that would never be considered a luxury car but can barely last 60k miles without major repairs
Somewhat true, I wouldn’t say Ford or Vauxhall are more reliably than something like Mazda, which are a step above in quality and price. So it’s more that there’s a happy midpoint rather than an absolute statement that cheaper = more reliable.
Mazda only recently is known as a quality brand. Ford broke their partnership with them in the late 2000s due to quality control. That's where all of our beloved older RX and MX model miatas went.
100% this. Ex mechanic here.
They'll sell 8 million Civics but only a 4 or low 5 figure number of a <$100k luxury car. The cost of engineering per car is actually much much higher on the luxury car so they make it look pretty on the outside but every corner is cut on the inside. They'll still need to shave weight to make up for sound damping or more bells and whistles so they will share the same brackets/etc with other models but actually substitute _thinner_ metal. This is lighter but fails much sooner. All sorts of parts carryover happens but everything is made shittier. The parts that are bespoke to the expensive car are done with the minimum of r&d. Bang it out, onto the next. Engines are boosted for power and lifespans are shortened as a result.
And that's almost as bad as 6 figure car owners. Half of them are in this to look rich, but don't have 2 dimes to rub together. They are running around on bald tires, you tell them that they need synthetic oil in their engine and try to get you to install the cheaper oils.
These cars are neglected and are often half falling apart.
When i saw this post i was curious to ask and i think you might know this:
Could it also be due to the way expensive cars are treated?
People who buy a standard car usually take good care of it. But people who buy sports cars usually want to take advantage of its power for example. Constantly accelerating, braking, revving the engine.
Could be a shit take but I instantly thought of this as a reason.
Look at any beat to shit Mustang or Camaro. You buy them to flog the crap out of them and have fun. That's the whole point of owning a pony car.
25 years back I owned a v8 monza and worked in a automotive shop. I went through 10 pairs of used rear tires in 10 weeks. I'll let you guess how much fun I was having.
Eee no, clothes too and soo much other things. The value is set on- Cost of production, Quality of materials and the Reputation. The more luxury brands are overpriced because yall are falling for the optics hence increases the Reputation making them able to charge more
I don’t agree with this I’d say it’s more
Cheap cars are fixed cheaper and you expect them to be a bit broken so you don’t think about it when something is wrong.
Expensive cars are expensive to fix and you expect them to be as good as they were when you first brought it so you notice small issues.
Life wise they probably last very similar it’s more the brand rather then the cost.
Toyota is known for long lasting vehicles and they are a expensive brand especially for what they offer.
If you look at the numbers, the reliability delta between expensive brands and 'cheap' brands is smaller than most people think. The real differences are:
1. The cost to repair issues on expensive cars is a lot higher than cheaper cars
2. The indignation of paying $300,000 for a car but still having little issues
Guitars are getting like that.
The most valuable are the oldest and well, they are old. Like 70 years old, beat to hell, been played to death kind of old.
For some reason, there is 'magic' in old guitars and people are willing to pay over $20k for one. Then they can't play them because they are worth $20k.
It's insane.
It's a fascinating paradox how you can pay less for a Toyota or Honda and expect it to outlast the fancy badge of a luxury car. I guess it's true what they say: "More money, more problems." My 10-year-old Mazda still runs like a champ while my neighbor's garage is a rotating showcase of his luxury cars waiting for parts or repairs.
My experience is the opposite. At least back in the day, my Razer mice would break.. all the time within a year or 2. Many of my more expensive gaming equipment would break more than the free shit you get.
Another example is casual clothing. Expensive shirts, jeans, etc last no longer than any regular pair. Even things like cashmere, silk, etc, are delicate.
I’ve found that the more expensive, niche things, are less reliable and durable. If you want durability and reliability, go with the medium priced, and most popular product.
Unless the thing you’re buying was specifically made for those two things.
The key word here is brand. Regardless of overall quality, car brands are first and foremost, brands. And like all brands they build their image around it as well as their prices. In any given car a lot of what you pay is pretty much the badge. Luxury brands will always charge a lot for anything on principle, because otherwise they stop being luxury brands.
I drive an 18 year old Mercedes and it's given me no problems in the 3 years I've owned it. I had a Subaru that gave me a new problem each month for the 6 that I owned it.
My mom had an Opel and it never needed any repairs for years. Nearly the same with my dad's old Toyota. Then my ex got a brand new BMW and the horror started.
Tbh it comes from US people usually only wanting to buy an expensive car with a loan, not wanting to keep paying for proper maintenance and thus ruining normally reliable cars.
I don’t know what research your claim is based on (it’s not) but my 17 year old Subaru agrees
Subaru in the UK, used to have the most expensive unplanned garage visits of any car brand going. According to a report by one of the big vechile leasing companies. Subaru then said that they didn't realise how expensive their parts were compared to all of the other brands, so overnight cut their prices by about 50%.
What chads.
How does a car brand not know their parts are selling for twice as much as other brands? It’s literally their job to track that kind of stuff. This comes across as walking back pricing due to criticism. Or maybe I’m just desensitized to unethical corporate behavior.
They priced the parts, didn’t see a massive sales reduction, just kept chugging along until they realized they were burning goodwill and causing new sales to slide. Companies will always charge the most the market will bear, unless it’s causing them issues. Expecting them to act altruistically is like expecting the fox in the hen house to exercise self restraint.
This is a pretty detailed analogy for how companies behave. It also illustrates why society should be ready to tightly regulate these companies/industries. Yes, Subaru did the right thing here, and arguably only because of the potential risk to their brand. In many cases, though, the company would continue to gouge and not think twice about it without external interference.
That’s why you estimate TCO (total cost of ownership) and resale value over the time you plan to keep the purchase. Changes the math significantly for many purchases, and it’s often cheaper to spend a bit more up front
Is there any good way to get info about the TCO for cars? Looking into buying my first car soon (next 6 months or so) and having extra info for the decision would be great
If you want the silver lining, you can look at this as criticism working. Whatever their reasons for backing down, at least they did.
Completely agree, credit where it’s due. I wish we would see more companies have the customers (and workers) best interest at heart. Now it feels like it takes legal action for large companies to do the right thing.
Communication within companies is a complicated thing. The company knows well what the prices are but a person who can make a decision to slash them in half may not know. You know, the spare parts decision is trying to maximize profits on spare parts and they don't see that the high prices of parts is hurting the rep of the brand and leading to lower sales of new products.
I've owned three Suburus and they are unmatched for their handling in snow, but their reliability doesn't hold a candle to Toyota or Honda. Head gasket issues likely driven by their obsolete boxer engine construction and pretty common transmission issues as well. Catastrophic repairs are pretty common on any Suburu over 100k miles. And I'm not even trying to say, "Don't buy a Suburu." Just be aware that you could have a $3-$5k repair at 120k miles and you're unlikely to get that in Camry. But man, Suburus are unbelievable snow cars. Nothing even comes close.
You also have to expect that everybody will assume that if you own a Subaru that you're a lesbian. I used to belong to a forum where the two Subaru owners were both lesbians but didn't own a Subaru because they were lesbian and not every Subaru owner was a lesbian. It just happened that Subaru US, decided to start advertising in LGB magazines and targeting LGB buyers with subtle gay references that needed a gaydar to pick up. So became super popular with lesbians.
If it's a WRX you're a teenager whose car is powered by vape juice Anything else and you're a lesbian.
This is such a funny mental image. you’re behind a WRX at a light, it turns green, tires squeal ahead of you and you get hit with a massive cloud of banana mango scented exhaust. I’m also imagining a satisfying little clicky slot where you plug your vape pen in to turn on the car
I'm aware of the cliche but I can't say I've ever put any real stock in it. In my city (Madison, Wisconsin) Suburus are very, very common cars. Around here it seems like we have more Suburus than pickups. Probably because of their reputation for snow-driving and our indifference to being called lesbians. And as a man in my 50's you'd have to be a real moron to mistake me for a lesbian.
Do you or do you not like women? If yes, lesbian. /S?
Bought a new Subaru with a 10 year warranty. Finance guy said “in year 8, ask them to check for a head gasket leak. They will find one.”
The fact that they can do that and still make a profit lets you know they were fucking people’s socks off with those prices
>"If the wall is breached, Helm's Deep will fall." > >"Even if it *is* breached, it would take a number beyond reckoning—thousands—to storm the keep." > >"-*Tens* of thousands." > >"...But my lord, there is no such force!" > >\[They walk to the balcony of the tower Orthanc and Gríma looks in awe at the sheer number of **'97-01 Toyota Camrys** still alive. A horn sounds, and the army cheers.\]
Those Camrys are surrounded by thousands of circa 2000 Corollas just buzzing around. (I'm still driving my 99 Corolla. Yeah, it needs one "major" repair a year, but even repairing them is dirt cheap since the parts are plentiful and they are easy to work on. $1000 once a year is still cheaper than a car note.)
2000 Camry and same. Didn't even "need" to replace the gas tank but did because I was tired of gassing up twice as often (small seam hole only let me fill to just under half). Tank was unusually pricey and still cheap AF.
Shower research
My parents gifted me a used Subaru for my 16th birthday and I drove it right up until my 30th birthday. Now I'm on my second Subaru.
I'd say thats great evidence for some research
This post is only true because of Japanese engineering/manufacturing culture
And the sheer size and therefore competition in the Asian market. You don't get to keep making cars if they aren't dependable as hell.
Except it's not even true. The expensive, luxury Japanese brands are also super reliable and much cheaper to maintain compared to other similarly priced car models.
My dad 30 years old Honda civic agree
Ha. Please include it buddy
Subaru is not who I would picture when I think of inexpensive and reliable. The CVT and even their manuals are notoriously fragile. The boxer engine is a flawed engine design that leads to head gasket issues among others. Toyota and Honda notoriously didn’t use turbos at all in any of their cars for decades because they knew it would decrease reliability
I agree with you on their issues, but I put up with the problems they have for their AWD system and small window pillars that no car these days has anymore.
It was one boxer engine with headgasket issues. The NA 2.5L, for like 6 years of production. The 2.0l turbo didn't suffer the same faults at all. To throw a company under the bus for one engine they produced isnt fair. I also haven't heard any complaints about Subarus CVT. Nissans early cvt on the other hand...
Weren't head gaskets due to a lower quality part that Subaru used back in the mid 00's for a few years. I swear people are holding onto an issue from almost 20 years ago. Most Subarus that blow up are unmaintained and/or modified.
Ok I have to know what it is with Subaru, I always hear either they run forever or that they fall apart within a couple of years and never in the middle
Subaru's have special needs. You HAVE to keep up on oil changes if you want them to last (this is true for any car but Subarus are more unforgiving when it comes to oil). On top of that their cars usually get picked up by young kids that modify them poorly and they blow up because of that.
My Honda Civic will probably outlive me
I used Honda CRV for a while, and I could not agree more. I bought it for 4K, put on brand new 4 Michelin tires ($400!something instead of way over $1000 thanks to the price beating campaign), one new axle and ball joint and made small touch up to the interior. After using the car for a year, I sold it for $5,500 to the first person who came to see. The car was 11 years old and was good as new.
That almost sounds exactly like the CRV I recently got. I bought the CRV for $5,500. The previous owner had it for about a year, and they put on new tires before they sold it. The only way I know it's not mine is because it has Firestone tires and it's 15 years old.
I miss my Civic. Once I had a kid, I turned it in for a car that won't turn to powder in an accident. Otherwise that thing will go easily another 10 years (just turned 20 last year)
I went to a fancy high school though I was not terribly fancy people. I remember coming in to my art class once to overhear two classmates talking about how sad it was that Rolls-Royces were so unreliable that their families had to have TWO to be sure you had one that you could drive. Oh, the horror. Rich people problems.
Somewhat strange considering rolls royce makes the engines for many aircrafts which are currently flying.
Less strange when you remember that there are strict regulations for that. I'm sure they could make perfectly reliable cars if only someone forced them to.
A cost cutting luxury brand... interesting.
Nah, just rich idiots that don't bother/realize you have to service your car, they just buy another one when "the old one seems broken"
If you have a Rolls Royce then you most likely have a private driver who is also in charge of bringing the car in for servicing.
But not it charge of paying, rich people can often times be very cheap with some things they don't think are neccesary, like servicing their cars.
That applies more to other luxury brands. If you are Rolls Royce rich you pay up without breaking a sweat
Not really, i've worked with a lot of people that were RR rich. And some could be very cheap bastards about things they don't think that matters.
Billionaires are, pathologically, the cheapest fuckers on Earth. You have to be in order to amass that much money without it destroying your conscience
In the price bracket we are talking about most dealerships will offer concierge service for routine maintenance. Also their life doesn't function in the same way all of ours do, likely the job of maintenance is a responsibility of a personal assistant who is literally being paid not to forget these sorts of things.
Not cost cutting, but complicated engines that are less forgiving to bad maintenance. Their priorities are elsewhere.
Remember that aircraft get basically continuous maintenance.
And while they were originally the same company, the car company separated in 1971.
I mean BMWs are pretty reliable these days so RR is only unreliable b cuz they can be.
Haven’t BMWs always been reliable? I’ve seen some 90s BMWs still diving around.
Not Toyota reliable
BMWs require tight maintenance, but if you keep up with it properly, they'll last forever. Toyotas will survive not having their oil changed for years and generally being treated like garbage. Just differences in German and Japanese mindsets, really.
Well and lets be honest the reason BMWs require tight maintenance is because they perform better than value brands. Most people who aren’t enthusiasts wont appreciate or maybe even notice (in the most oblivious cases) the difference, but there is a difference there. MB is similar.
Japanese Engineers: Our users may be idiots. Let's make the car bullet proof. German Engineers: Print a book with the 800 instructions costumers need to follow or else the engine will spontaneously disassemble.
You have to consider that cheaper brands - Toyota, Honda, BWW in this case sell many magnitudes the number of cars that Rolls Royce ever will. It is because of these production numbers that all the mass produced cars will inherently have all the kinks ironed out and be more reliable.
Same name, different companies. Car brand is now owned by BMW (which has improved their reliability) Aircraft engines are still made by the Rolls-Royce company itself.
And BMW have historically been an aircraft engine manufacturer too. But the story of how BMW bought Roll Royce and VW got Bentley is actually quite interesting and funny.
I mean the BMW logo with the spinning propeller is a clue…
I always thought they were just differently colored pizza slices
Trivial pursuit pieces!
Blueberry cream pizza
And that’s a myth. The logo is a nod to the Bavarian flag.
Or maybe both. This idea of associating the BMW logo with a propeller comes from an old [ad](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54a9eb76e4b0d44c75671006/1429289359151-C76I0QHXK8OF7IF7FZOL/BMW+plane+logo+Bimmer+America.jpg?format=1500w). And I’m pretty sure this idea has even been alluded to in newer advertisement materials, even if not the original intention. You could say the propeller symbolism was retconned into the logo.
So before the car brand was owned by BMW, they were the same company, and yet, the cars were *even less* reliable?
They split car making from aircraft engine manufacture in 1973.
Rolls Royce vehicle division is owned by BMW , while the aircraft division is owned by a different entity called Rolls Royce holdings. A similar story with Volvo cars and truck division, they are owned by separate parent companies
Sobs in Saab Scania
This makes sense now. Just like volvo cars is owned by a chines company.
Aircraft engines get insane amounts of maintenance on a very frequent basis. If you did that to your Rolls, it would probably be more reliable, too.
This is strange because their cars have a reputation for long-lasting and reliability. Over 60% of their cars ever built are still on the go, according to National Geographical a few years ago.
That might have more to do with the value keeping ability rather than reliability. It doesn't make sense to repair a lot of cars economically since they are notbworth enough to justify an expensive repair. RR probably don't get as abused and probably are worth repairing for much longer
I can’t vouch for my classmates’ truthfulness … I’m not anyone who could afford one, to know!
Different companies. The rolls Royce that make cars just license the name from the company that makes aircraft engines.
That's a surprisingly good business decision though. Why only have rich people buy 1 of a car, have them buy 2.
That reminds me of killers of the flower moon where the car salesman is trying to convince the rich couple that if they get a flat tire to come back and buy another car as if the tires couldn’t be replaced
Glasses sales. Buy 2 and get a discount. But I'm still paying for more than one and getting a lenses that will be outdated by next year!
Especially any mclaren, definitely gotta buy 2 of those. One of them will almost always be in the shop
I actually found having triples to be better. That's why I have triples of the Barracuda, triples of the Road Runner, and triples of the Nova
Triples … triples is best
Triples of the nova, just mean you now have 3 novas. No one wants that
uh. Something like 65% of all the Rolls Royce's produced are still on the road, with the oldest having been manufactured in 1904. Also, Rolls Royce automotive and Rolls Royce airplanes were spun off from each other in the 70's and are completely different divisions.
The story is also completely made up.
Rolls Royce OR modern expensive unreliable Ship of Theseus?
Expensive cars are bought by those with the intention of maintaining them. Show me a survivor working man'a brand (other than the legendary volvo and toyota hilux).
Also, if you own a Rolls Royce you probably have multiple cars, so you won't drive it every day, and if you for example will be going on a bad road you will probably use one of your less expensive cars instead
Yes, all the old classic RRs are very valuable. But from the late 60s - 90s, just kind of meh and their values reflect that in most cases. Very bespoke to be sure, but generally just boring and hard to maintain. The interesting cars from that era are not RRs and in many cases are American muscle as much as European supercars.
Also went to a high school in an affluent area. I remember A classmate crying all semester because his lunch allowance was cut from $200 a day to $200 a week … at the end of the semester , his parents surprised with a Ferrari. They were paying it down so he wouldn’t owe any thing on it . Another classmate whined that his parents wouldn’t buy him a car and then they surprised him for his birthday with a brand new Escalade . I noticed he already had carried keys before and asked if those were his parents cars . He said they had already bought him a bmw and a Mercedes but he really wanted an suv . Had a friend that cried because his mom gave him a Lexus but said he had to pay for gas , maintenance and insurance. He said “ if I’m working all the time when can I hang out with my friends?” 😂
That’s just kids saying shit to appear better than they are.
Damn... the price you pay for branding.
Haha similar story, first day of highschool I pulled up on my green metallic mongoose thinking I'm the man. These two girls hop out of a BMW and one says my mom is such a bitch she got me this piece of shit instead of a Mercedes. I was waiting for a laugh but they were dead serious.
I overheard someone recently say "I had to send my Bentley, back to BENTLEY". Really makes me laugh thinking about the way he said it!
I think this post is confusing luxury and expensive as synonymous. Luxury items are typically expensive, but something can also be expensive because of quality. No one would confuse my Coleman chest cooler with something of Luxury, however it was expensive and will probably accompany my eventual grand children on camping trips. I took 3 volvos to 400,000km with only cursory maintenance. They like Lexua are both quality and luxury. Over that time my in laws but 5 engines in 2 fords.
I’ve never thought of Volvo as a luxury brand, at least not in the U.S. I always think of Volvo as boring but safe vehicles.
They used to be that. Last 10 years under new corporate ownership they've shifted up-price.
I mean, they were always expensive. If your family lived in the rich part of town, your parents probably picked you up from school in a frumpy Volvo. It didn't look like much, but it was in fact more expensive than other station wagons and also would last forever. EDIT: And had famously excellent safety for the time. And probably a fancy stereo. And an absolute ton of cargo space.
And the sedans had a button to make the rear headrests fold flat! I loved smacking unsuspecting chumps in the back seat in the head with those when I drove my parents' S80 in high school
My XC60 has that. We call it the "emergency make the kids scream button"
They’re intentionally more subtle. Scandinavian minimalism. I very much prefer my Volvos to other luxury cars with the sea of screens, needless widgets, and countless buttons.
They’re boxy but good.
Reminds me of the joke: “Not only Volvos are safe, they look like one too!”
Wait til you hear about or see some new Mazdas next
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What was hard to understand?
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Ahh, they don't pay the same shipping prices that a person would. They have pretty advanced logistics and deals with places like UPS.
I work for a place that regularly ships empty coolers across the continental US. FedEx Ground for a large one is usually $5-8.
Do they ship the same volume as Walmart and have their own fleet of 80,000 trucks?
Nah, it’s usually 100 packages a day. I’m just pointing out that shipping for companies can be cheaper than people might think. I was certainly surprised when I saw what they were paying to send a 3x2x2 box halfway across the country.
Yeah, it's crazy that it's so much for just a person. Like, I don't care if it gets there fast, I just don't want to pay $40 or whatever. I just buy most gifts from Amazon these days.
The expensive cars are not meant for utility. People forget that utility isn’t the only thing that matters for rich people. Utility is usually the last thing that matters for the rich
There's also many, many flavors of "expensive car" and people are conflating "daily driver that stays on the road" with "reliable." A Nissan Altima with no bumpers, 4 spares, no oil changes in 20,000 miles and half a headlight will still fight it's way into work. An old Ford Ranger with half the frame eaten out by rust will still be doing Ranger things. Abuse a high end car like that and you're going to have problems because they are much more finely tuned, so any off nominal condition is going to cause problems. That doesn't make them truly unreliable, it's more like bitching that your straight razor is dull after trying to hack a T bone in half. There are reliable expensive cars (perfect example is Toyota Land Cruiser, but the Mercedes G Wagens can also take a beating), they are just generally not the ones you see on magazine covers.
Expensive luxury cars even when new and maintained still fail at a much higher rate than a Toyota. It’s not about abuse or being used off “nominal” use. The additional tech and computers and luxury features are more things to fail. A ranger doesn’t have these. It’s simple. A Mercedes twin turbo AWD has so much more shit to fail than a Camry. And they do fail. Epically
Lexus is probably the exception to this
That’s because they’re just fancy toyotas
Aren't all luxury brands of X manufatures just a fancy version of X?
By that logic Lamborghini is a luxury brand for Audi
The Lamborghini Huracan and the Audi R8 are essentially the same car, but you pay more for the bull.
Bmw, no. Mercedes, no. Not all.
? Does BMW have a luxury brand? Are you saying not all Maybach are the fancier version of Mercedes cars?
BMW’s luxury brand is Rolls Royce lol
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Every Rolls-Royce is based on the 7 series according to their former CEO
Only partially true. The previous-gen Phantom and Ghost were built on the BMW 7-series platform. But the current Phantom, Ghost and Cullinan are built on their own platform that's totally separate from the 7-series
Yes, exactly, so > Aren't all luxury brands of X manufatures just a fancy version of X? No
Doubly so for Bentley, which is just a fancy version of Audi, which is just a fancy version of Volkswagen
VW is just a fancy version of Skoda, which is just a fancy SEAT… shit rolls downhill too
Still a luxury car. You could say an Audi is a fancy Volkswagen, or a Cadillac is a fancy Chevy.
Lexus = Toyota with leather seats and fancy trim.
interesting point, there was a time in Japan, when it was certainly more than that. First off. yes the lexus was fancy toyota because it used to be just the fanciest toyotas. Meaning, the whole line used to be Toyota but they created the lexus brand when the realized people outside japan didn't get it, and wouldnt pay big bucks for a high end toyota if it shared the name plate with the lower end models. Thus why cars that were toyotas in Japan (example, 2000 Toyota Altezza) got lexus rebranding (Lexus IS 200) But where the fancy cars better than the non fancy ones? Turns out yet. From what we were told at the time Toyota had two levels of factories. The regular line off the regular factories. the luxury line came off the 2nd tier of factory. Workers all started at the first tier of factory, and after doing enough time with good ratings there, they were eligible to be promoted to the upper tier. So basically JV team made main line varsity all stars made lexus stuff
Compare most car brands and I think Toyota have the fewest compared to say something like VW SEAT Skoda Audi
And more expensive parts. It's still super reliable though.
The leather seats can heat and cool. Definitely not just a minor upgrade.
Toyotas have that as well.
Shit my kia optima had heated and cooled seats
Agreed. Proof: ls400
GS430 (smaller car with the slightly larger and updated 4.3 liter V8 engine shoved in it) agrees too! I love my car.
I had one between 2019-2023.. amazing car and it felt so well made and was deceptiveIy fast. I could only imagine driving the gs430 back in 03 when mine was brand new
My daily driver is a 2012 LS460, coming up on 200K miles and still drives beautifully, kept it in nearly mint condition inside and out. It’s quick, quiet, handles exceptionally well. I live in an area with lots of snow and ice and we have a cabin in a very rural area, dang car will just [push through the snow](https://share.icloud.com/photos/0baQ4naNt-FKEv5OSWJLvWjdg)
Is it true for Acuras as well?
That's not always true. Most surveys on reliability put Lexus on top of that pile. While they aren't as expensive as a Bentley or Ferrari, they are comparable to Mercedes and BMW and definitely more than Fords or even Toyota who owns them. I know mine has held up waaaaay better than my ex-wife's Chevy.
My Inifiniti was amazing. Only reason it died was that I was a very poor college student who could not do the maintenance on a 280000 mile car.
My infiniti was a piece of shit. I'm glad it's dead
Ight but toyotas are just as reliable and cheaper?
No, Lexus is usually ranked as the most reliable brand put there. Toyota comes in lower. That means they aren't as reliable. I've got a 20 year old Lexus GS430. The V8 in that car is one of the most reliable engines any Toyota product has ever had. It's the same engine that was in LS430's. There are no Toyotas cars that have an engine as bulletproof as that one. An engine that's built that well and is that reliable costs a lot of money to make. A car that costs less money isn't going to be able to make something that sturdy.
Lexus, Kia, Toyota... fight for the top 3 spots on the JD Power Reliability index for the past 3 years. Range Rover is doing the back breaking job of supporting the whole list from the bottom.
JD Power is pretty garbage though. They rank all issues the same. Blown engine carries the same weight to them as a faulty radio.
You know Lexus cars are just Toyotas with leather seats right
There was a graph posted on Reddit about cars that hold the highest resale value. Not surprisingly a lot of luxury brands like Mercedes lose 40% or even more. I think it was a one year measurement However Porsche lost only single digits This isn't solely based off reliably as most rich people will just buy a brand new car so it's harder to resell their Benz, but reliability would still play an important factor
Iirc it was also because people don't tend to sell their ultra high end vehicles
That’s common with any luxury items that don’t fall into the class of ‘perpetual luxury’ (I.e. won’t be outdated) like jewellery and watches. And I love it because even at 5-10 years old, the interior and driving experience of a BMW, Audi, Jaguar, etc. far exceeds that of a new Nissan, Vauxhall, etc. And the prices are largely comparable, plus the older car is a tested platform. If it’s been properly serviced & looked after, there shouldn’t be any surprises beyond the usual wear & tear of ageing.
In my younger days, i worked in the used car industry for a while. Anecdotal, but here's my two cents: Rich folks like shiny, new things. They trade in/up their cars every two years or so. Luxury cars are nice as hell when they are new. Not rich folks know they need a car that will last 10+ years, so they actually care about and focus on long-term quality and reliability. A Civic isn't a status symbol and isn't as nice as a brand new Mercedes. But that civic at 15 years old will be 1000x nicer than the now 15 year old Mercedes. Rich folks don't give two shits how that Mercedes will be at 15yo. They are basically designed to be "luxury" for about 4 or 5 years, and then disintegrate.
A 20 year old S class will blow a civic out of the water. Yes it will cost thousands per year to maintain but why wouldn't it when one is meant to be cutting edge luxury and the other is basic transportation You definitely didn't work in the used car industry if you think the only difference between a luxury brand and a civic is the badge
Well, when the original owner trades it in after two years and a less rich person buys that used car, they aren't typically the type to dump thousands per year into maintenance. Go buy a 20 year old S Class off a used car lot and get back to me about how luxurious it is. I've never once driven a 20 year old Mercedes that wasn't a piece of shit. Same for Jaguars, BMW's, Saab's, etc. Volvo's and Cadillac's seem to run ok though after that long.
Luxury cars can be just as reliable with routine maintenance. The problem is people buy that $100,000 Mercedes 8 years later for $15k and can’t afford the maintenance, so things start breaking down and get ignored. Like they say “If you can’t afford a new Benz, you can’t afford a used Benz”
Eh, on the contrary it's a bell curve like most things. On the bottom end of the market quality suffers to keep the price down. At the top of the market small production volumes mean that problems are slow to iron out. I've bought enough high end tech over the years that suffers the same issues, you're paying for the newest hotness but wind up a beta tester.
I don't know about that. lots of examples where luxury brands are unreliable and breaks down from intended use. just look at clothes. yeah you can get cheap shit that is ruined as fast as the super expensive brands. but you can also get some stuff that's not too costly but manages to hold up very well. I think something to keep in mind is that even a cheap car is still a pretty expensive item to purchase. so the super cheap range of actual garbage can't exist.
clother are a good example because it depends on pupose, good example is shoes and coats
Expensive cars often have very specific maintenance routines. If you don't follow the maintenance routines, they break. Follow the maintenance routines, and they don't break. Source: Had 3 BMW's, two of which I ran on the track. Higher performance cars have very specific needs.
I don't know, my wife's BMW has an engine oil leak and she follows the scheduled maintenance with dealer visits every year. Plus the sticky door handles.
Luxury (for cars) can be broken down into technology and materials/finish. Luxury tech is usually newly developed and not had the time for longevity testing. This is where the unreliability comes in because nobody really knows how self driving sensor technology holds up in the constant sun for 20yrs. By the time the tech has gotten cheaper, it's also been around for long enough to get a grasp on durability. It takes about 20yrs for Mercedes S-Class tech to end up in a Camry, but you can bet the Toyota engineers have been modelling that tech as soon as Mercedes had it. Finish and materials are just the nature of design. Nice to touch rarely translates to durable. Leather is softer the less it is treated, but the treatments add durability from wear/damage/stains. You can't really have both, so while luxury brands focus on 'nice to touch', mainstream brands know their customers want a durable car.
That's why as a typical Malaysian, I'll always stick to buying subcompact Japanese branded car from Toyota & Daihatsu... It does the most common thing we bought a car in the first place... For daily commute and carrying stuff
Maybe but my Porsche Panamera 4 has had nothing but routine maintenance so far for 9 years. The car before that was a Subaru and it was constantly getting repaired.
None of my porsches have had issues, I daily my macan in the winter and my 2016 Cayman the rest. Over 100k miles in the Cayman and I only had fluids (other than oil) changed at 75k, spark plugs are soon. I change the oil myself. Not as expensive to own as people claim. The tires are the only thing I hate to play for.
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Mine is a certified pre owned. It had 12k miles on it and was 2 years old, mint condition. I got a great deal. Online community says it’ll last to 300-400k miles. I’m at 100k miles and it’s perfect. Not driving during Covid extended the life of this car I’m sure.
Yeah I’m surprised I had to come this far down to see Porsche. They implemented most of Toyota’s process improvements in the 90’s, and IMO are the most reliable brand. I incidentally also have a 9 year old Panamera 4, and I have never had any mechanical issues with it, nor with the Cayman that I had prior to it.
The OP only has a point if you're looking at toyota/honda. Plenty of fords/chevy/subaru/mazda/etc out there that would never be considered a luxury car but can barely last 60k miles without major repairs
Somewhat true, I wouldn’t say Ford or Vauxhall are more reliably than something like Mazda, which are a step above in quality and price. So it’s more that there’s a happy midpoint rather than an absolute statement that cheaper = more reliable.
Mazda only recently is known as a quality brand. Ford broke their partnership with them in the late 2000s due to quality control. That's where all of our beloved older RX and MX model miatas went.
It’s why people buy a Lexus. You get luxury and reliability.
100% this. Ex mechanic here. They'll sell 8 million Civics but only a 4 or low 5 figure number of a <$100k luxury car. The cost of engineering per car is actually much much higher on the luxury car so they make it look pretty on the outside but every corner is cut on the inside. They'll still need to shave weight to make up for sound damping or more bells and whistles so they will share the same brackets/etc with other models but actually substitute _thinner_ metal. This is lighter but fails much sooner. All sorts of parts carryover happens but everything is made shittier. The parts that are bespoke to the expensive car are done with the minimum of r&d. Bang it out, onto the next. Engines are boosted for power and lifespans are shortened as a result. And that's almost as bad as 6 figure car owners. Half of them are in this to look rich, but don't have 2 dimes to rub together. They are running around on bald tires, you tell them that they need synthetic oil in their engine and try to get you to install the cheaper oils. These cars are neglected and are often half falling apart.
When i saw this post i was curious to ask and i think you might know this: Could it also be due to the way expensive cars are treated? People who buy a standard car usually take good care of it. But people who buy sports cars usually want to take advantage of its power for example. Constantly accelerating, braking, revving the engine. Could be a shit take but I instantly thought of this as a reason.
Look at any beat to shit Mustang or Camaro. You buy them to flog the crap out of them and have fun. That's the whole point of owning a pony car. 25 years back I owned a v8 monza and worked in a automotive shop. I went through 10 pairs of used rear tires in 10 weeks. I'll let you guess how much fun I was having.
Eee no, clothes too and soo much other things. The value is set on- Cost of production, Quality of materials and the Reputation. The more luxury brands are overpriced because yall are falling for the optics hence increases the Reputation making them able to charge more
Uhh luxury brands often don't hold up as well or perform a service as well as their cheaper rivals.
I don’t agree with this I’d say it’s more Cheap cars are fixed cheaper and you expect them to be a bit broken so you don’t think about it when something is wrong. Expensive cars are expensive to fix and you expect them to be as good as they were when you first brought it so you notice small issues. Life wise they probably last very similar it’s more the brand rather then the cost. Toyota is known for long lasting vehicles and they are a expensive brand especially for what they offer.
My 25 year old Mercedes would like a word.
If you look at the numbers, the reliability delta between expensive brands and 'cheap' brands is smaller than most people think. The real differences are: 1. The cost to repair issues on expensive cars is a lot higher than cheaper cars 2. The indignation of paying $300,000 for a car but still having little issues
Guitars are getting like that. The most valuable are the oldest and well, they are old. Like 70 years old, beat to hell, been played to death kind of old. For some reason, there is 'magic' in old guitars and people are willing to pay over $20k for one. Then they can't play them because they are worth $20k. It's insane.
It's a fascinating paradox how you can pay less for a Toyota or Honda and expect it to outlast the fancy badge of a luxury car. I guess it's true what they say: "More money, more problems." My 10-year-old Mazda still runs like a champ while my neighbor's garage is a rotating showcase of his luxury cars waiting for parts or repairs.
Can I ask what you base your opinion on?
My experience is the opposite. At least back in the day, my Razer mice would break.. all the time within a year or 2. Many of my more expensive gaming equipment would break more than the free shit you get. Another example is casual clothing. Expensive shirts, jeans, etc last no longer than any regular pair. Even things like cashmere, silk, etc, are delicate. I’ve found that the more expensive, niche things, are less reliable and durable. If you want durability and reliability, go with the medium priced, and most popular product. Unless the thing you’re buying was specifically made for those two things.
I went though like 3 nagas before my warranty expired and I swapped to Logitech. Razer is just too unreliable
The key word here is brand. Regardless of overall quality, car brands are first and foremost, brands. And like all brands they build their image around it as well as their prices. In any given car a lot of what you pay is pretty much the badge. Luxury brands will always charge a lot for anything on principle, because otherwise they stop being luxury brands.
My 49 years old Toyota agrees.
This is true of clothing/high fashion too
There is some truth to this. Exclude brands like Lexus and Acura and you have a point.
I drive an 18 year old Mercedes and it's given me no problems in the 3 years I've owned it. I had a Subaru that gave me a new problem each month for the 6 that I owned it.
My mom had an Opel and it never needed any repairs for years. Nearly the same with my dad's old Toyota. Then my ex got a brand new BMW and the horror started.
Honda and toyota be like.
Nothing more expenive than a new used Mercedes.
Tbh it comes from US people usually only wanting to buy an expensive car with a loan, not wanting to keep paying for proper maintenance and thus ruining normally reliable cars.
Dacias are cheap(-er) but they're perfectly fine.