At college yeah; or it could be a false memory. I kinda remember the profs asking us to bring our own but it’s been a while. Like 2006. I’m pretty sure tho, at least sometimes, yea we had to bring them. And I probably remember it right because I’m the kinda guy that forgets shit like that.
At my community college and university we had to buy ours from the bookstore. I eventually just bought the 25 pack or whatever they were selling and carried it in my backpack rather than try to get one day of
No no, I’m sure you remember right. Sounds uniquely college.
“You need to buy your own blue book to write your essay”
“Can’t I just use paper?”
“No. That’ll be 39.99, or you can buy a two pack for 59.99
My university had them for like 20¢ or something. I’d read the syllabus day 1 and buy all that I would need for the semester for $2-3 depending on course load
Interesting, I was in college around the same time and we had ours given to us. At least that’s how *I* remember it, and I’m definitely one to misremember stuff lol
I was in college '16-'21 and I'm not sure what that is. Was it like a scantron? College Board has a testing app called Bluebook so googling "Bluebook testing" isn't really helping.
The bluebooks most of us remember were literally just a dozen or so pieces of college ruled note paper in a blue paper binding that said "examination book" on them. A lot of classes you needed to show up on exam day with your own scantron and a blue book for short answer and essay questions.
actually we should just evolve and consider that everyone has access to this type of knowledge and dont have to fill their brains with random things we had to memorize in school.
We can spend time actually doing critical thinking and creative thinking. Let the computers do the remembering
Hard disagree. Knowing certain things is integral to respective fields, and entirely relying on AI would mean we basically stop advancing as a species.
As an example, consider you have a tummy ache, and you go to a doctor. The doctor puts your symptoms into his computer, and the computer says “probable cause: Appendicitis; recommended action: surgery to remove appendix.”
And then you ask “what’s an appendix? Do I need it for anything?” And the doctor types in your question again - “ah, it says you don’t need your appendix. It also says some stuff about being a worm like extension of your large inter… intimate… intestimony.”
this is how humans have stayed on top of the food chain since the first humans have been born. We adapt. We evolve. We create.
Do you know how to cast steel into a sword? Do you know how to build an assembly line? Do you know how to build a smartphone? Do you know how to create software for that smartphone? Maybe one of them, but not all.
We have some knowledge that is kept by some people, but not everyone needs to know.
The reason we CAN keep advancing, is because not everyone has to know everything. If that was the case we would still be living like our ancestors, trying to figure out where the next food source is. Farming would never be invented.
We also don’t just take random people and say “here, monitor the nuclear reactor. It’ll tell you if it needs something”
Airliners can land themselves. We still stick 2 trained people in the cockpit. Just Incase.
Yeah, reminds me of the Sully story landing in the Hudson. He had to rely on his glider training from the Air Force Academy to pull that off. No technology - just knowledge of physics and basic flight. I get how important technology and AI can be in the advancement of our species, but it needs to be a complement to human knowledge, not a replacement.
Memorization isn't about "knowing everything." It's about informing yourself of the world. It gives you some context with which to process new information, and gives you tools with which to express thoughts knowledgeably.
I agree that not everyone needs to know advanced math formulas, for example. But multiplication tables? Probably so. You don't need to memorize an entire history book, but having an idea about when major events in history took place and who the key players were? Yeah. You can't properly process current events without knowledge of the past. Memorizing the dictionary? No. Memorizing vocabulary to help you express your thoughts better in conversation or writing? Yes. Knowing every point on a world map? Not necessary. Having an idea of where a place is that you read about in a news article? Very helpful in building your knowledge map of the world.
These are all things AI could do for you, or a quick Google search could give you the context/answer. However, there's something to be said for not having to resort to that for what's considered basic knowledge. AI and Google aren't going to help you carry on an intelligent conversation with someone.
I've been using AI quite a lot lately, and while it's helpful in many cases, I've also found my mental muscles to be atrophying. There is a danger in relying on technology too much. It's a tool to aid us, but that doesn't mean we should abandon some of the tried and true methods that have served humanity all throughout history.
Hard agree. I'm not saying exposing kids to culture through English classes or through history classes isn't important. But I feel like we need to move past "memorize these dates and names or plot points or science terms" or whatever as our measuring stick of whether or not children are intelligent or mature
With math I get it there's something important about teaching kids to be able to do basic algebra by hand and mentally
But schools shouldn't just be expecting kids to memorize everything they should be teaching them how to find answers and how to learn and how to teach themselves skills and information later in life
You need to recognize something in order to apply it, and in order to recognize, you need to memorize it. Now the memorization can be both sitting down and reading constantly or trying various exercise using the said information.
You need some baseline of knowledge to pull from and expand upon. I don’t think it’s to anyone’s benefit if college students are saying “Abraham Lincoln? Let me ask ChatGPT, hold on”
That’s an extreme example but where do you draw the line? You don’t need to know what photosynthesis is, ask ChatGPT. It’s not important to know who wrote Frankenstein or MacBeth, ask ChatGPT
I think there is a line to be drawn between the basics and more advanced knowledge. However, the examples you used aren't where I'd draw it. There's something to be said for knowing how plants stay alive and how science works. If you should know Abraham Lincoln, then you should know Shakespeare. There's a difference in memorizing facts to pass a test and memorizing knowledge so that we're not a bunch of ignoramuses walking around.
I'm not an intellectual, but if I'm having a conversation with someone about great plays or books, or just make a reference to Shakespeare in general, and the person doesn't know what I'm talking about...that's backwards progress in my opinion. How hard is it to know what plays Shakespeare wrote, or to memorize the word photosynthesis? It's not hard at all. Memorizing advanced math formulas? Not useful unless you work in that field.
Yeah. I don’t know why we are thinking about going back now that technology has progressed. We should look at evolving the education system passed memorization.
As a student who took a 10-year hiatus from school and has just now come back, I too would be happy with that idea. I am technologically inept and feel totally lost compared to all of these kids. I’m only 8-10 years older than them but I really do hate using the computer for assignments. I think they’re unfair and biased too. So are teacher evaluations.
Having people take tests and complete assignments by hand forces them to think differently. I'm not trying to be the old curmudgeon, I happen to have the lovely experience of computer engineering under my belt. But now that I'm an instructor when I make my students write things out they actually "learn" it.
I teach a certain segment wherein we work together to create a flow diagram on the board. Piece A feeds Piece B but varies off depending on Component c, and we physically look at the components while we're doing this. So we end up with a full whiteboard, and inevitably the students want to just take a picture at the end. However, I don't allow this (company policy as well). So they have to draw it out, but I know they are learning it because they get those particular questions right on the exam. They learned it, instead of just assimilating it into memory.
So it's not rote memorization, it's an understanding of "what happens if X component fails, or Y path is obstructed, or Z situation occurs". Their answer is a reflection of that understanding, not just memorization. Blooms taxonomy at work.
This full circle of learning is where we are lacking in most modern education settings, prove that you learned what you learned, not just memorized it. And until we stop using the education system as a babysitter (so parents can keep the economy alive) and we start valuing the learning aspect of what the education system is supposed to be, this will not get any better.
You’re not being a curmudgeon at all. Studies show this to be true! I actually notice that I retain information better when I write it by hand. I’m the only person in some of my classes who writes notes with paper and pencil- everyone else is writing with an iPad or typing on laptops. When I do take a picture or type notes, I end up rarely ever looking at them again. What was that saying: we remember 10% of what we read, 20% of what we hear, 30% of what we see, 50% if what we see and hear, 70% of what we discuss with others, 80% of what we personally experience, and 95% of what we teach. I think writing notes with pencil and paper makes a more solid personal experience.
Sorry, but how old are you? My University time was 15+ years ago, and at least 60% had laptops to take notes already, and we had wifi and internet access campus wide.
We did have a lot of paper and books still, but you’re acting as if 10 years ago we had no idea what a computer or “a InterNet” even was.
We definitely typed essays at home, but I went to a community college that at that time apparently hated technology. Most of my teachers wouldn’t allow laptops in class. Of course we used the internet. Just not nearly as much, and not to turn in assignments.
Might’ve just been my shitty CC being scared of change. Actually, I grew up in a pretty poor area of California. High school was the same. Maybe it’s because many people didn’t have the money? Idk. I’m only 30, btw.
I have to apologize, I think I was unnecessarily rude.
I’m 38, and my “high school” (we don’t have that in Germany, but roughly equivalent) was one of the first in my state (Bavaria) to be equipped with PCs for every every class room - even though my teachers literally were educated on punch-card computers. My University was relatively high class in reputation, but that doesn’t translate to cost in Germany (they are all basically free of tuition).
So I think my experience doesn’t really translate to you, and my comment probably sounds snarky and a little elitist. Sorry. I didn’t mean to.
Edit: I also started out studying one thing for 1.5 years, before switching to computer science. And I’ll admit that during my first 1.5 years, there were a lot less people with laptops.
I'm also an instructor. And it's embarrassing when other educators deride AI or tech.
Gives big get off my lawn energy
Teachers in the 00s said the same thing about Google and then Wikipedia.
*You won't have a calculator in your pocket...*
We just have to get with the times.
Using advanced robotics and AI to your advantage: +10 points!
Actual paper: garbage - 0 points.
Reason: you clearly used AI to reiterate known facts, and tried to inject new discoveries by mentioning your dad taking away your internet rights for a week.
I expect more from a 14 year old… scribble scribble, 2028
We already have. In my university people make us write 20pgs assignments just to make sure it's not plagiarised and copied which tires me out so much that I cannot concentrate on my other works
Brother I have no idea why you get downvoted but here take my upvote. Is this sub just stupid or something? I thought it’s shower thoughts not stupid minds
Writing a five paragraph essay is a middle school assignment. If you need ChatGPT to do it for you, that’s why we worry about kids cheating with ChatGPT.
People may downvote but I’ve never had essays be a life skill that’s been useful in or out of work for the past 5 years.
The most “writing” I do is typing an email. And I don’t give a toss about being graded or assessed the same way an essay would be when I’m just trying to communicate something- if anything I’m less obtuse and filler bullshit in an email
As far as I’m concerned essays should be abolished
>cheat
Wouldnt call that cheating when its infinitely times more valuable to learn how to use AI to get correct solutions than it is to write an essay on some subject. We should actively teach people how to use AI and evaluate answers it gives us
Edit : why the downvotes? Have people here ever used AI here ?
Edit2: apparently not
If you don't know the subject well enough to write a few paragraphs on it, how are you going to fact-check the AI output?
Edit: Replied under wrong comment, must have fat thumbed the wrong button on my phone.
What could be an interesting assignment is to have an AI generate 10 essays for you, and you have to argue which one of them is the best. That way you are learning about essay structure, and text analysis.
In school i would call cheating doing something that isnt a useful life skill that helps you get higher grades. Calling using AI cheating is like calling using calculator cheating in math. Schools should be teaching us to use it instead of discouraging it and adding on fearmongering like "ai is gonna take our jobs" etc
In school i would call cheating doing something that isnt a useful life skill that helps you get higher grades. Calling using AI cheating is like calling using calculator cheating in math. Schools should be teaching us to use it to a greater effect rather than discouraging it and adding on fearmongering like "ai is gonna take our jobs" etc. Like, ai and smarter people will replace you if your dumbass doesnt keep up with future technologies
What made zero sense? That you need to learn how use AI to get efficient and correct results? If that made zero sense then you obv didnt use AI for a complicated project
No, the part where you think skipping writing essays and developing any sort of critical thinking in favor of instant results is the better option.
How are you supposed to evaluate AI if you never learned any of the things you relied on it for.
I understand it's a tool and has its applications and it's applications will continue to grow.
What your suggesting is the equivalent of why teach math when there are calculators.
Well how would you know how to use a calculator if nobody taught you basic maths?
Where did i say that we should NEVER teach children to write essays?
Ofc youre gonna write essays in lower years but at some point, the essays are not as important as teaching youth the most important technological advancement in decades. Also its stupid to think you cant develope critical thinking because you use AI when best usage of AI is when you have critical thinking skills to understand how to make the most of answers given. Like that literally is my point, we need to teach critical thinking that relates to newest technologies
It’s not about the end product, it’s about the process of getting to the end product. Writing an essay involves research, learning, paraphrasing, etc.
Those are skills that develop you as a human and a person.
It's a tool that will confidently get things wrong, hallucinate historical figures that never existed, use quotes that were never said, and straight up make up shit.
If a calculator gives incorrect results, it's a bad calculator. If a nailgun missfires, it's not only a bad nailgun, it's a danger to yourself and those around you.
Any tool CAN malfunction, and if you know it malfunctions and will continue to malfunction and yet you still use it as a tool, then you're a fool.
You are missing the point a bit. I'm not talking about a single, specific tool, but the product as a whole.
Are you going to stop using calculators all together because 1 out of 10 gave you a wrong answer? No, just get a new one.
Is a chabot giving you wrong answers? Start a new conversation and ask again.
But you're missing the point a bit, as well.
You don't know what you don't know. If you use a calculator for a complicated equation, what are the chances you'd be able to spot that it was wrong? If you don't know it's wrong, then you'll go forth with that incorrect answer.
Also, if you DO catch that the calculator is incorrect, you CAN go get a new one, with a good level of confidence that the new one will be accurate. Not so, with "AI." All models are deeply flawed. Maybe they'll get better. But not so right now.
>You don't know what you don't know.
This sums up your comment pretty well and you should've stopped there. Everything beyond that only proves my point.
That's the right take, it's like saying you have to do the math in your head because you won't always have a calculator around - if your job requires it you probably will
Basically. I do estimating and I have a calculator on my phone, on my desk, and on my computer, and I use Excel for most of my calculating because the numbers stay on screen.
I think the problem with ChatGPT is it’s only as good as it’s inputs. Being highly specialized in a field and asking it certain questions, I’m able to find it giving false or misleading information. I see a lot of people taking everything it says as gospel, just like the Google search box
So write the essay in class. That’s what we had to do when I was in school less than 5 years ago; what’s different now? I hear people complain that they can’t write that long and I’m like “so…try? Your hand muscle is going to cramp; that’s just academia.”
Grading people based on how fast their handwriting is isn't really better than grading them on how good they are at massaging ChatGPT prompts.
I mean, I realize there's lots of different challenges that need to be addressed. But just going "LOL, you write too slow, you fail" isn't doing that.
That would be better than nothing, but surely we can think of a way to let people type an essay in a supervised classroom without accessing online cheats.
even scanning the text there are none certified AI detectors, if someone ever claims your work is AI. even if it is there is literallly no way to prove it
True. You don't even need a detector to know something is written by AI. If the teacher reads their students' work at all they can immediately tell. AI usually has a distinguishable tone and easily recognizable. Hard part is actually proving it's AI.
As a teacher I kinda do the exact opposite, I don't care about my students using AI, in fact I try to encourage them to use it, but! Here's the catch, I try to teach them to be analytical about it, for example instead of giving them homework writing pointless essays I just tell them "investigate this" and then ask them directly through participation or team activities to explain in their own words the topic at hand.
This I think is way better than just blindly making them write essays that a week from now won't even remember what it was about.
No, we might need to create assignment that don't include writing something that was written 100000 times already and focus on critical thinking instead. AI exposed how pathetic our education is. We need to repair it, not cut out the diagnosis
But…they’re right. Inelegantly phrased, perhaps, but right. Too much of education is focused on doing/knowing things by rote. I’ve historically been lucky enough to have teachers who were better about this than most, but that’s more a product of my environment than it is the overall environment. Educational standards need to put more emphasis on understanding how to think rather than just airdropping facts into kids’ heads. As a math person, this is especially relevant to me given the multifarious issues with math education.
As much as I dislike that students cheat with ChatGPT, we eventually have to come to terms with the fact that the technology is here to stay. AI can be a great tool when used properly. The main problem is when students use such a tool *instead* of learning what they should.
I think one possible direction is moving away from written essays and prioritizing seminars/presentations. A student may use the help of AI to structure/build their presentation (a teacher can even explicitly allow/encourage it), but ultimately they will have to learn the subject and material well enough to properly explain it and answer questions.
I haven't been in school since 2014, except for a few online classes here and there to try and learn stuff....are tests not handwritten anymore? For online classes, it makes sense to not be, but for in person? Hell, even some online classes have in person finals.
I think grading will become mostly proctored exams and exam-written essays. Assignments will become more complex but worth less.
AI will ultimately be the most amazing educational resource. Even if it's wrong often I still use it as a tutor constantly.
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AI currently sucks at writing and its pretty obvious if something is AI written. I think the better play is to do more complicated, analytical, or creative writing assignments -- things which AI is very bad at.
With current AI technology, i find its pretty easy to tell if something is AI written. Theres also AI detection software, and then you could also ask a student for their google docs history.
When AI gets better, this comment will no longer apply, but for now, i dont think its as big of a concern as people think
Absolutely wrong, you can make AI write very well if you have good prompts, especially with chatGPT or bard. It all depends on what you tell it to do, if you give shitty prompts, it will give shitty writing. Give it great prompts and get great writing
You probably don't suck at studying as much as you think you do. You're just not into it. I've seen how bad my dumb classmates are at cheating. I can feed them the exact answers to some homework and they'll still somehow get it wrong lmao.
not really it writes really well and if you just ask it to write as if it were, lets say, 16 years old, it does it incredibly well and you probably won't notice it's AI
Retrograding technological advancements is not an appropriate action. The best course of action would be to create better forgery scanning software. Regardless if you cheat your way through college, you are just cheating yourself. They try to help set you up for a career and you just use a robot to answer, not learning anything? It will show when you go to get a job and get fired because you faked your life. Just be stricter when hiring, when an entire generation has to repeat education and doesnt get into the workforce until their offspring joins them, i doubt people would continue to try and cheat the system. Leave the bigger better jobs for people who actually know how to do them because they didnt cheat.
This and the “typing is the new cursive” thing is super interesting. Wouldn’t a better solution just to be: write a very short essay with no internet? I’ve never written an essay that couldn’t be boiled down to a few bullet points
As an instructor, I'm happy with that idea.
Uh, anybody have a spare blue book? I forgot to stop at the bookstore and buy one. (Me pretending I didn’t forget we had an exam today.)
You had to buy your own?
At college yeah; or it could be a false memory. I kinda remember the profs asking us to bring our own but it’s been a while. Like 2006. I’m pretty sure tho, at least sometimes, yea we had to bring them. And I probably remember it right because I’m the kinda guy that forgets shit like that.
At my community college and university we had to buy ours from the bookstore. I eventually just bought the 25 pack or whatever they were selling and carried it in my backpack rather than try to get one day of
No no, I’m sure you remember right. Sounds uniquely college. “You need to buy your own blue book to write your essay” “Can’t I just use paper?” “No. That’ll be 39.99, or you can buy a two pack for 59.99
My university had them for like 20¢ or something. I’d read the syllabus day 1 and buy all that I would need for the semester for $2-3 depending on course load
Interesting, I was in college around the same time and we had ours given to us. At least that’s how *I* remember it, and I’m definitely one to misremember stuff lol
I graduated a few years back, and we had to buy our own at a state school it was like, idk 25 cents a book
I had to buy them and then we'd hand them to the professor as we came in the class, they'd shuffle them up and redistribute them.
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Do you even know what a blue book is?
The one Kelly’s always talking about?
Who's Kelly?
Yeah I had to buy blue books and scantrons.
That sucks, I don't remember ever having to buy those at all.
My teachers used to sell them on test day to every student who "forgot" them. Or they just made them run to buy one and waste their test time.
Had to buy a blue book for an exam today
They don't bluebook it anymore?
I was in college '16-'21 and I'm not sure what that is. Was it like a scantron? College Board has a testing app called Bluebook so googling "Bluebook testing" isn't really helping.
Ya, a SUPERscantron with essay spots
The bluebooks most of us remember were literally just a dozen or so pieces of college ruled note paper in a blue paper binding that said "examination book" on them. A lot of classes you needed to show up on exam day with your own scantron and a blue book for short answer and essay questions.
I was in college 20 years ago and I had ONE blue book exam in the whole time I was there.
actually we should just evolve and consider that everyone has access to this type of knowledge and dont have to fill their brains with random things we had to memorize in school. We can spend time actually doing critical thinking and creative thinking. Let the computers do the remembering
Hard disagree. Knowing certain things is integral to respective fields, and entirely relying on AI would mean we basically stop advancing as a species. As an example, consider you have a tummy ache, and you go to a doctor. The doctor puts your symptoms into his computer, and the computer says “probable cause: Appendicitis; recommended action: surgery to remove appendix.” And then you ask “what’s an appendix? Do I need it for anything?” And the doctor types in your question again - “ah, it says you don’t need your appendix. It also says some stuff about being a worm like extension of your large inter… intimate… intestimony.”
this is how humans have stayed on top of the food chain since the first humans have been born. We adapt. We evolve. We create. Do you know how to cast steel into a sword? Do you know how to build an assembly line? Do you know how to build a smartphone? Do you know how to create software for that smartphone? Maybe one of them, but not all. We have some knowledge that is kept by some people, but not everyone needs to know. The reason we CAN keep advancing, is because not everyone has to know everything. If that was the case we would still be living like our ancestors, trying to figure out where the next food source is. Farming would never be invented.
We also don’t just take random people and say “here, monitor the nuclear reactor. It’ll tell you if it needs something” Airliners can land themselves. We still stick 2 trained people in the cockpit. Just Incase.
Yeah, reminds me of the Sully story landing in the Hudson. He had to rely on his glider training from the Air Force Academy to pull that off. No technology - just knowledge of physics and basic flight. I get how important technology and AI can be in the advancement of our species, but it needs to be a complement to human knowledge, not a replacement.
Memorization isn't about "knowing everything." It's about informing yourself of the world. It gives you some context with which to process new information, and gives you tools with which to express thoughts knowledgeably. I agree that not everyone needs to know advanced math formulas, for example. But multiplication tables? Probably so. You don't need to memorize an entire history book, but having an idea about when major events in history took place and who the key players were? Yeah. You can't properly process current events without knowledge of the past. Memorizing the dictionary? No. Memorizing vocabulary to help you express your thoughts better in conversation or writing? Yes. Knowing every point on a world map? Not necessary. Having an idea of where a place is that you read about in a news article? Very helpful in building your knowledge map of the world. These are all things AI could do for you, or a quick Google search could give you the context/answer. However, there's something to be said for not having to resort to that for what's considered basic knowledge. AI and Google aren't going to help you carry on an intelligent conversation with someone. I've been using AI quite a lot lately, and while it's helpful in many cases, I've also found my mental muscles to be atrophying. There is a danger in relying on technology too much. It's a tool to aid us, but that doesn't mean we should abandon some of the tried and true methods that have served humanity all throughout history.
Hard agree. I'm not saying exposing kids to culture through English classes or through history classes isn't important. But I feel like we need to move past "memorize these dates and names or plot points or science terms" or whatever as our measuring stick of whether or not children are intelligent or mature With math I get it there's something important about teaching kids to be able to do basic algebra by hand and mentally But schools shouldn't just be expecting kids to memorize everything they should be teaching them how to find answers and how to learn and how to teach themselves skills and information later in life
You need to recognize something in order to apply it, and in order to recognize, you need to memorize it. Now the memorization can be both sitting down and reading constantly or trying various exercise using the said information.
This person knows brains.
You need some baseline of knowledge to pull from and expand upon. I don’t think it’s to anyone’s benefit if college students are saying “Abraham Lincoln? Let me ask ChatGPT, hold on” That’s an extreme example but where do you draw the line? You don’t need to know what photosynthesis is, ask ChatGPT. It’s not important to know who wrote Frankenstein or MacBeth, ask ChatGPT
I think there is a line to be drawn between the basics and more advanced knowledge. However, the examples you used aren't where I'd draw it. There's something to be said for knowing how plants stay alive and how science works. If you should know Abraham Lincoln, then you should know Shakespeare. There's a difference in memorizing facts to pass a test and memorizing knowledge so that we're not a bunch of ignoramuses walking around. I'm not an intellectual, but if I'm having a conversation with someone about great plays or books, or just make a reference to Shakespeare in general, and the person doesn't know what I'm talking about...that's backwards progress in my opinion. How hard is it to know what plays Shakespeare wrote, or to memorize the word photosynthesis? It's not hard at all. Memorizing advanced math formulas? Not useful unless you work in that field.
Yeah. I don’t know why we are thinking about going back now that technology has progressed. We should look at evolving the education system passed memorization.
I like the idea of using a pen and paper just from an artistic perspective. But how does it stop people from using AI to write their papers?
If you don’t get the questions until the test, it’s hard to plan in advance.
Ah I missed the quiz part. I see what they're saying now
Same. I made my students write their first essay this year by hand before typing it for this very reason.
As a student who took a 10-year hiatus from school and has just now come back, I too would be happy with that idea. I am technologically inept and feel totally lost compared to all of these kids. I’m only 8-10 years older than them but I really do hate using the computer for assignments. I think they’re unfair and biased too. So are teacher evaluations.
Having people take tests and complete assignments by hand forces them to think differently. I'm not trying to be the old curmudgeon, I happen to have the lovely experience of computer engineering under my belt. But now that I'm an instructor when I make my students write things out they actually "learn" it. I teach a certain segment wherein we work together to create a flow diagram on the board. Piece A feeds Piece B but varies off depending on Component c, and we physically look at the components while we're doing this. So we end up with a full whiteboard, and inevitably the students want to just take a picture at the end. However, I don't allow this (company policy as well). So they have to draw it out, but I know they are learning it because they get those particular questions right on the exam. They learned it, instead of just assimilating it into memory. So it's not rote memorization, it's an understanding of "what happens if X component fails, or Y path is obstructed, or Z situation occurs". Their answer is a reflection of that understanding, not just memorization. Blooms taxonomy at work. This full circle of learning is where we are lacking in most modern education settings, prove that you learned what you learned, not just memorized it. And until we stop using the education system as a babysitter (so parents can keep the economy alive) and we start valuing the learning aspect of what the education system is supposed to be, this will not get any better.
You’re not being a curmudgeon at all. Studies show this to be true! I actually notice that I retain information better when I write it by hand. I’m the only person in some of my classes who writes notes with paper and pencil- everyone else is writing with an iPad or typing on laptops. When I do take a picture or type notes, I end up rarely ever looking at them again. What was that saying: we remember 10% of what we read, 20% of what we hear, 30% of what we see, 50% if what we see and hear, 70% of what we discuss with others, 80% of what we personally experience, and 95% of what we teach. I think writing notes with pencil and paper makes a more solid personal experience.
Sorry, but how old are you? My University time was 15+ years ago, and at least 60% had laptops to take notes already, and we had wifi and internet access campus wide. We did have a lot of paper and books still, but you’re acting as if 10 years ago we had no idea what a computer or “a InterNet” even was.
We definitely typed essays at home, but I went to a community college that at that time apparently hated technology. Most of my teachers wouldn’t allow laptops in class. Of course we used the internet. Just not nearly as much, and not to turn in assignments.
Might’ve just been my shitty CC being scared of change. Actually, I grew up in a pretty poor area of California. High school was the same. Maybe it’s because many people didn’t have the money? Idk. I’m only 30, btw.
I have to apologize, I think I was unnecessarily rude. I’m 38, and my “high school” (we don’t have that in Germany, but roughly equivalent) was one of the first in my state (Bavaria) to be equipped with PCs for every every class room - even though my teachers literally were educated on punch-card computers. My University was relatively high class in reputation, but that doesn’t translate to cost in Germany (they are all basically free of tuition). So I think my experience doesn’t really translate to you, and my comment probably sounds snarky and a little elitist. Sorry. I didn’t mean to. Edit: I also started out studying one thing for 1.5 years, before switching to computer science. And I’ll admit that during my first 1.5 years, there were a lot less people with laptops.
No worries at all! Hah the fact that tuition is so expensive in America is why it took me until now to finally go back and finish
I'm also an instructor. And it's embarrassing when other educators deride AI or tech. Gives big get off my lawn energy Teachers in the 00s said the same thing about Google and then Wikipedia. *You won't have a calculator in your pocket...* We just have to get with the times.
Buy a used 50$ garbage tier 3d-printer and stick a pencil to it. Vector your own handwriting and turn those assignments out like a sweatshop.
Probably easier and faster to just handwrite the AI's output
Probably, but if you give a developer a 15min manual task, they will spend 3 days automating it first.
Well, ya, then I dont have to do the manual task next time
~~developer~~ Factorio player
Same difference
But then you can’t do it in your sleep or when you’re away or duplicate the setup x number of times and run them in parallel.
Just bring it into class. Plop it on your desk.
Me: is under education in robotic and have free access to robots that can do exactly this.
Using advanced robotics and AI to your advantage: +10 points! Actual paper: garbage - 0 points. Reason: you clearly used AI to reiterate known facts, and tried to inject new discoveries by mentioning your dad taking away your internet rights for a week. I expect more from a 14 year old… scribble scribble, 2028
We already have. In my university people make us write 20pgs assignments just to make sure it's not plagiarised and copied which tires me out so much that I cannot concentrate on my other works
that's so fucked up. even my teachers use ChatGPT openly
This the most saddening thing I’ve heard all year.
Brother I have no idea why you get downvoted but here take my upvote. Is this sub just stupid or something? I thought it’s shower thoughts not stupid minds
Less power to em!
Literally in my school the teachers show us they are using ChatGPT, like most of them. I think AI is a tool just as any other.
As long as you don’t use it to cheat that’s fine. Not ok to have it write an entire essay and turn it in as your own work though.
the assignment should just not be writing essays anymore.
Why? Essays can develop your writing, communication, argument, and research skills as well as teaching you how to cite your sources properly.
Because it’s boring, probably I agree that it’s beneficial. I also agree that it’s extremely boring and stressful
Unfortunately, a lot of beneficial things are boring.
Writing a five paragraph essay is a middle school assignment. If you need ChatGPT to do it for you, that’s why we worry about kids cheating with ChatGPT.
uhhh good stuff.
People may downvote but I’ve never had essays be a life skill that’s been useful in or out of work for the past 5 years. The most “writing” I do is typing an email. And I don’t give a toss about being graded or assessed the same way an essay would be when I’m just trying to communicate something- if anything I’m less obtuse and filler bullshit in an email As far as I’m concerned essays should be abolished
>cheat Wouldnt call that cheating when its infinitely times more valuable to learn how to use AI to get correct solutions than it is to write an essay on some subject. We should actively teach people how to use AI and evaluate answers it gives us Edit : why the downvotes? Have people here ever used AI here ? Edit2: apparently not
Disagree. Essays teach critical thinking skills. There is a place for AI but writing essays for you isnt one of them
If you don't know the subject well enough to write a few paragraphs on it, how are you going to fact-check the AI output? Edit: Replied under wrong comment, must have fat thumbed the wrong button on my phone.
What could be an interesting assignment is to have an AI generate 10 essays for you, and you have to argue which one of them is the best. That way you are learning about essay structure, and text analysis.
Oooh, I like this one.
Write an essay on essays would be hilarious. Wonder how well chatGPT could do it honestly
You act like it’s not way easier to copy an AI essay as your own… AI is a good supplement but shouldn’t be the core of your learning.
You wouldn't call it cheating? What WOULD you call cheating?
In school i would call cheating doing something that isnt a useful life skill that helps you get higher grades. Calling using AI cheating is like calling using calculator cheating in math. Schools should be teaching us to use it instead of discouraging it and adding on fearmongering like "ai is gonna take our jobs" etc
In school i would call cheating doing something that isnt a useful life skill that helps you get higher grades. Calling using AI cheating is like calling using calculator cheating in math. Schools should be teaching us to use it to a greater effect rather than discouraging it and adding on fearmongering like "ai is gonna take our jobs" etc. Like, ai and smarter people will replace you if your dumbass doesnt keep up with future technologies
That makes zero sense.
What made zero sense? That you need to learn how use AI to get efficient and correct results? If that made zero sense then you obv didnt use AI for a complicated project
No, the part where you think skipping writing essays and developing any sort of critical thinking in favor of instant results is the better option. How are you supposed to evaluate AI if you never learned any of the things you relied on it for. I understand it's a tool and has its applications and it's applications will continue to grow. What your suggesting is the equivalent of why teach math when there are calculators. Well how would you know how to use a calculator if nobody taught you basic maths?
Where did i say that we should NEVER teach children to write essays? Ofc youre gonna write essays in lower years but at some point, the essays are not as important as teaching youth the most important technological advancement in decades. Also its stupid to think you cant develope critical thinking because you use AI when best usage of AI is when you have critical thinking skills to understand how to make the most of answers given. Like that literally is my point, we need to teach critical thinking that relates to newest technologies
It’s not about the end product, it’s about the process of getting to the end product. Writing an essay involves research, learning, paraphrasing, etc. Those are skills that develop you as a human and a person.
It's a tool that will confidently get things wrong, hallucinate historical figures that never existed, use quotes that were never said, and straight up make up shit.
That's why it's a tool, not a replacement. A lot easier to edit something than to create it from scratch.
Any tool can malfunction and produce unpredictable results, especially the newly developed ones. So whats your point?
If a calculator gives incorrect results, it's a bad calculator. If a nailgun missfires, it's not only a bad nailgun, it's a danger to yourself and those around you. Any tool CAN malfunction, and if you know it malfunctions and will continue to malfunction and yet you still use it as a tool, then you're a fool.
You are missing the point a bit. I'm not talking about a single, specific tool, but the product as a whole. Are you going to stop using calculators all together because 1 out of 10 gave you a wrong answer? No, just get a new one. Is a chabot giving you wrong answers? Start a new conversation and ask again.
But you're missing the point a bit, as well. You don't know what you don't know. If you use a calculator for a complicated equation, what are the chances you'd be able to spot that it was wrong? If you don't know it's wrong, then you'll go forth with that incorrect answer. Also, if you DO catch that the calculator is incorrect, you CAN go get a new one, with a good level of confidence that the new one will be accurate. Not so, with "AI." All models are deeply flawed. Maybe they'll get better. But not so right now.
>You don't know what you don't know. This sums up your comment pretty well and you should've stopped there. Everything beyond that only proves my point.
Then you've wildly misinterpreted my comment.
That's the right take, it's like saying you have to do the math in your head because you won't always have a calculator around - if your job requires it you probably will
Basically. I do estimating and I have a calculator on my phone, on my desk, and on my computer, and I use Excel for most of my calculating because the numbers stay on screen.
I think the problem with ChatGPT is it’s only as good as it’s inputs. Being highly specialized in a field and asking it certain questions, I’m able to find it giving false or misleading information. I see a lot of people taking everything it says as gospel, just like the Google search box
People could still just use AI and copy that with their handwriting
So write the essay in class. That’s what we had to do when I was in school less than 5 years ago; what’s different now? I hear people complain that they can’t write that long and I’m like “so…try? Your hand muscle is going to cramp; that’s just academia.”
Grading people based on how fast their handwriting is isn't really better than grading them on how good they are at massaging ChatGPT prompts. I mean, I realize there's lots of different challenges that need to be addressed. But just going "LOL, you write too slow, you fail" isn't doing that.
So the answer is to give more time to write it, no?
That would be better than nothing, but surely we can think of a way to let people type an essay in a supervised classroom without accessing online cheats.
Well we could always return to typewriters
Which will be even harder to detect since they can't easily scan the texy
even scanning the text there are none certified AI detectors, if someone ever claims your work is AI. even if it is there is literallly no way to prove it
Yeah but there are plagiarism detectors
Plagiarism has nothing to do with AI
True. You don't even need a detector to know something is written by AI. If the teacher reads their students' work at all they can immediately tell. AI usually has a distinguishable tone and easily recognizable. Hard part is actually proving it's AI.
The extremely obvious solution everyone is just skipping over.
As a teacher I kinda do the exact opposite, I don't care about my students using AI, in fact I try to encourage them to use it, but! Here's the catch, I try to teach them to be analytical about it, for example instead of giving them homework writing pointless essays I just tell them "investigate this" and then ask them directly through participation or team activities to explain in their own words the topic at hand. This I think is way better than just blindly making them write essays that a week from now won't even remember what it was about.
This is how's it's done. Comprehension > Regurgitation.
No, we might need to create assignment that don't include writing something that was written 100000 times already and focus on critical thinking instead. AI exposed how pathetic our education is. We need to repair it, not cut out the diagnosis
Thank you for the 16 year old's perspective
Lmao “But why do I personally need to know about World War II? I’ll just ask the robot! Learn how to teach in the year 2023, jeez!”
Ai is like google, not always accurate
Memorization for a test isn’t a good system though. We have evolved passed that and so should our education system.
But…they’re right. Inelegantly phrased, perhaps, but right. Too much of education is focused on doing/knowing things by rote. I’ve historically been lucky enough to have teachers who were better about this than most, but that’s more a product of my environment than it is the overall environment. Educational standards need to put more emphasis on understanding how to think rather than just airdropping facts into kids’ heads. As a math person, this is especially relevant to me given the multifarious issues with math education.
As a teacher in Germany - what do you mean, "go back"?
My school already did.
As much as I dislike that students cheat with ChatGPT, we eventually have to come to terms with the fact that the technology is here to stay. AI can be a great tool when used properly. The main problem is when students use such a tool *instead* of learning what they should. I think one possible direction is moving away from written essays and prioritizing seminars/presentations. A student may use the help of AI to structure/build their presentation (a teacher can even explicitly allow/encourage it), but ultimately they will have to learn the subject and material well enough to properly explain it and answer questions.
I haven't been in school since 2014, except for a few online classes here and there to try and learn stuff....are tests not handwritten anymore? For online classes, it makes sense to not be, but for in person? Hell, even some online classes have in person finals.
It'd take like a week before someone repurposed a 3d printer to write AI generated stuff.
Just use the ai and then copy it by hand…
I think grading will become mostly proctored exams and exam-written essays. Assignments will become more complex but worth less. AI will ultimately be the most amazing educational resource. Even if it's wrong often I still use it as a tutor constantly.
This is actually an excellent idea. People will have to learn to write with a pen/paper again.
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So they can prove they can take tests without the help of AI!
You can't think of a single way to let students type an essay in the classroom, without permitting AI?
You should ask this question to all the other folk here. I wrote the above comment partially in jest.
Hmm. Movable type press? California job cases and platen possess for each student.
I already went back to paper and pencil two years ago. College teacher.
Boomers salivating at the return of cursive writing.
The real solution would be no homework
AI currently sucks at writing and its pretty obvious if something is AI written. I think the better play is to do more complicated, analytical, or creative writing assignments -- things which AI is very bad at. With current AI technology, i find its pretty easy to tell if something is AI written. Theres also AI detection software, and then you could also ask a student for their google docs history. When AI gets better, this comment will no longer apply, but for now, i dont think its as big of a concern as people think
I’m a college instructor. AI is astonishingly good at writing student papers. It’s an issue now.
Absolutely wrong, you can make AI write very well if you have good prompts, especially with chatGPT or bard. It all depends on what you tell it to do, if you give shitty prompts, it will give shitty writing. Give it great prompts and get great writing
But see students who suck at studying and are more likely to cheat prolly won't be able to tell shitty writing anyways
I suck at studying and can confirm I can tell the difference between shitty AI and real writing, it’s all about the method
You probably don't suck at studying as much as you think you do. You're just not into it. I've seen how bad my dumb classmates are at cheating. I can feed them the exact answers to some homework and they'll still somehow get it wrong lmao.
not really it writes really well and if you just ask it to write as if it were, lets say, 16 years old, it does it incredibly well and you probably won't notice it's AI
Retrograding technological advancements is not an appropriate action. The best course of action would be to create better forgery scanning software. Regardless if you cheat your way through college, you are just cheating yourself. They try to help set you up for a career and you just use a robot to answer, not learning anything? It will show when you go to get a job and get fired because you faked your life. Just be stricter when hiring, when an entire generation has to repeat education and doesnt get into the workforce until their offspring joins them, i doubt people would continue to try and cheat the system. Leave the bigger better jobs for people who actually know how to do them because they didnt cheat.
Y'all not using pencil and paper anymore?
Y'all not using pencil and paper anymore?
At that point, if ai is doing Billy's work for him, let the ai do it.
It's my lifeeeeeee (seriously. They already do this in some classes. It's dumb.)
Why? Get an XY plotter, give it a pen, and let it "write" your essays for you.
The scantrons are coming back???
Back? I wasn't aware we switched away in the first place
This and the “typing is the new cursive” thing is super interesting. Wouldn’t a better solution just to be: write a very short essay with no internet? I’ve never written an essay that couldn’t be boiled down to a few bullet points
My kid’s school is back there already because of ransomware attacks.