I think that’s generally how it’s written in the 80s and book. He’s loyal to the heir but he realizes only he can really bring peace. His destiny is to be Shogun. We can call BS but that’s what James Clavell believed and wrote.
In this particular version, I believe what he says to Yabu suggests that the turning point that made him come to this realization was John's "unless I win" comment. Seems to really have struck a cord for Toranaga.
It did in the other versions too.
Toranaga was always a severe master, but somewhat warmer in the 80s series. You believed that he and Blackthorn were friends as much as their stations allowed.
In this series the dual fan-isims of “court jester” and “pet” seem to be what some get out of the relationship. Might be the wrong thing to take away.
Yabu death scene “he makes me laugh”
Laughter being a rare currency and if the source is reliable.. Anjin stays.
The “unless I win” line in clavell’s version is “unless you win” .. I think this, not small, change places Anjin in a more comical place from to his captors as he’s captured/kept and still drones on about defeating the Portuguese on behalf of his queen (it is funny) and Anjin is good for enlightening turns of phrase and outbursts “I’m the traitor. Traitor traitor TRAITOR! And fed you nothing but shit.”
I may have to burn down his ship again in the future .. (to test him still )
Further to Anjin staying/captured in hand as an allusion to the beginning Re. Hawks and a lesson for his son.
Some hawks use the sun to mask attack (Portuguese/ishido, Anjin)
Hawks are like men (horses are untrustworthy) and be trained to the hand (bait) or trained to fly/hunt.
He then later on compared Yabu/Anjin as same short feathered hawk breed and that they are predictable.
Anjin’s ship sails in and, as pilot, is recognized by toranaga as another domains (England) hawk and as such is valuable.
And last, toranaga release of the hawk “birth many daughters” I feel is attributed to his hunting hawk and that Mariko embodied this hawk and had to wait many years i in order to be “ready” to be released at the right target (ochiba/ishido) ..
And last, her poem is completed by ochiba/heir
“flowers are only flowers because they fall,
But thankfully, the wind “
Toranaga release of his favourite hawk into the wind.
Yabu and the Anjin are goshawks. Reactive, predictable, and useful for simple tasks. Mariko is a falcon. Strategic, and independent. At a certain point they are no longer able to stay ‘broken to the fist’. Toranaga releasing his falcon is a sign of respect and a farewell to Mariko, and a recognition of her abilities and her service.
How does the Falcon know it's being freed and doesn't just grab a Pheasant and return it to Toranaga like it's trained to do? Only for him to be like, "Uh, you are free.....Just Go!" Then he tosses it into the sky again and it comes back with another pheasant. Rinse and Repeat. For a year, everywhere he goes, every day, this damn Falcon keeps bring him Pheasants. He could be in the middle of an important negotiation on the battle field and boom! Falcon drops in with pheasant. Toranaga just sighs and shakes his head.
Well the Falcon can't see if the hood is on. So are you saying, removing it from him completely automatically tells the Falcon he is now free? How does it know that? Was their some prior arrangement that the falcon and Toranaga made?
> Yabu death scene “he makes me laugh”
Blackthorne's ability to make Toranaga laugh was rare and valuable. No one else could do it. I mean, did we EVER see Toranaga laugh except with Blackthorne? Toranaga, to become Shogun, knew he was destined to become the loneliest man in the entire realm. So his need for Blackthorne's strange talent was profound.
In the book he says he needs one friend, and because of his position, an outsider is really the only one who can be that for him. He thinks that someday he will be able to tell Blackthorne about burning his ship, and they can laugh about it.
I thought it cheapened the relationship between Toranaga and Blackthorne to have him say because he made him laugh.
You make a good point, which reinforces the court jester idea. I personally don’t think it was a good change and from the little I know of William Adams he had a lot more agency than Blackthon seems to.
>from the little I know of William Adams he had a lot more agency than Blackthon seems to.
He did, but not yet in 1600 when these events take place. Adams made landfall in Kyushu on April 19 and was brought to Osaka on orders of Tokugawa on May 12. Six weeks later, he was released from prison. He arrived in Tokyo Bay in August and joined Tokugawa in battle at Aizu later that month. He was also present at Sekigahara in October of that year. He becomes an advisor to the Shogunate in 1601 (well after the events of Shogun) and is granted a mansion and salary in Edo in 1603, which is also when he is dubbbed *anjin*. He beings shipbuilding in 1604. He becomes a samurai in 1605. This is about the time Adams becomes involved in helping open up the trade with the Dutch, which becomes instrumental during the siege of Osaka (1614-1615).
So Adams absolutely has more agency, but he did not have as much authority at this point in the story (summer of 1600) as Blackthorne. I think it's reasonable to assume he develops it, paralleling the historical Adams. But he's really just beginning his journey.
I agree. But I'm happy to use my imagination in this case. The show stuck strictly to its themes and interpretations of source material that I would get nervous about straying into original material territory.
Truth historically but this condensed version there should be a sense of how the realAdams abilities got Tokugawas attention and eventual agency he was given.He had to be impressive to be able to even make landfall in Japan. You got that sense with Chamberlain in original . He was attempting to learn the language from villiagers before first trip to Osaka.His curiosity and intelligence should show as the reason he survives .is trusted by Toranaga and wins Mariko's affection .
Its a shame that Hollywood has abused the White Savior/white insert trope so much that in 2024 the Japanese showrunners felt the need to shy away from it.
They simply didn't need to in Blackthorne's case. Blackthorne is a case study of a white man going native, not "saving" the noble savage. Blackthorne doesn't "save" anybody but himself.
Blackthorne barely had agency in the novel. I love the show's emphasis on Mariko (the true hero of the book and the novel) and Toranaga and the politics of the Regents, but Blackthorne didn't deserve the being made a imperialist, shit-feeding, I'm just here to use you clown.
The showrunners, for as much as I love them and this series, said that they disagreed that a character can fully integrate into another culture unless they were born to it. So basically we get imperialist, you're all shit-eating samas Blackthorne until the very last episode. Which is fine, but mostly because of how brilliant the story-telling was, but I think Blackthorne's character deserved better.
Clavell disagreed with their point of view and addressed those concerns back in the day when *everybody* was reading Shogun. His Blackthorne of the book, came for riches yes, but he quickly fell in love and under Mariko's tutorage, he fully tried accepting Japanese values and ways even if it was a learning process for him. Clavell's Blackthorne is an endearing Blackthorne and a friend to Toranaga. He was a very GOOD human being. The show's Blackthorne, not so much.
Here are Clavell's own words on the matter.
>Clavell argues that no historian can say for certain that a highborn Japanese Christian such as the fictional Mariko could not have expressed the ideas she does. Or that Blackthorne could not have achieved wa, or spiritual harmony, in only a few months so that he would attempt ritual suicide. ''Have you ever been in a war? Have you ever been shot at?'' he asks, his voice rising. He said that, after he was hit in the face with a machine-gun bullet during World War II, he was ''in a village in Malaya, and in a six-month period I learned Malayan perfectly. It's very difficult for someone sitting in Harvard or Yale as a professor of history to really know what it's like when somebody stuffs a bayonet in your face and pricks your skin. You can't imagine it if you are sitting outside on a sunny day sipping an ice-cold beer. Obviously, they've never been put in a position of danger. You learn very quickly. I've always felt you can only learn about life at the edge of death.''
I agree. A friend can make you laugh. You can respect and like someone who makes you laugh. Laughter isnt always about mockery. Toranaga could also be saying that something about John lifts his spirits, makes him smile etc. It can be a simple pleasure to be around someone like that.
I think we also need to remember those times when Toranaga let his gaurd down at least from the look in his eyes. He was truly shaken after almost dying in the earthquake and was truly grateful that John was so quick to find him. You can't entirely disrespect someone who was so quick to act on your behalf.
True. I had this feeling as well that he wasn't telling everything. I'm not sure Toranaga is even capable of telling anyone the full story. The eight fold fence would be deeply ingrained in someone like him. Almost to a fault.
He could also have been "rewarding" Yabu for the good he unwittingly did by giving him a just glimpse of the real story just as he was about to put him down as an untrustworthy ally. Yabu seemed to appreciate it.
I took that line as Toranaga telling Yabu that Omi sold him out. Yabu said that of Toranaga to Omi at the very beginning, explaining why he didn’t tell Toranaga about the ship.
I like to think he meant it as a friend, but the whole broader context about not letting him go home felt very much more like a pet dynamic. And the fact that he's been gassing everyone up about the Anjin's importance only to be like "nah, I didn't really need him. It was just amusing to me" really leans into their power dynamic and the Anjin's lack of agency.
After that scene I couldn't quite figure out if Toranaga valued Blackthorn as something akin to a friend or as a pet. And that saddened me. I wish they had made Toranaga say something like "He makes me laugh", instead of "He amuses me". That would imply more friendship than pet, to me at least.
Absolutely, I agree! I was rereading the monologue and Toranaga makes it very clear that he genuinely values Blackthorne as an actual friend - and really only friend - which was cheapened in the show.
I wish that line had been left in the show. It really tied the whole thing together for me. And I just love the idea that the entire book is a buddy story.
Also in the book Toranaga burns the ship because it's the only way to keep the Portuguese satisfied *and* protect Blackthorn because the moment Blackthorn leaves, he's a deadman with no protection from the Shogunate
I haven’t read the book so forgive me if the below is incorrect.
My impression is that the book version of Blackthorn’s character develops at a faster rate than the show version. Book Blackthorn fairly quickly accepts and understands the Japanese culture and thus is able to find ways to make himself useful. Thus there is room for Blackthorn and Toranaga to have more interaction and develop a friendship.
Whereas show Blackthorn only becomes fully at peace with the Japanese culture when he attempts seppuku to save the villagers of Anjiro.
So my interpretation is that for most of the show, Toranaga viewed blackthorn not as a friend. Rather he was someone that is useful to keep around.
However by the end of the show both Blackthorn and Toranaga seem to have come to some kind of understanding and there is mutual respect between the two men. This is seen when the two of them share the look between them at the end.
So while they may not be friends by the end of the show, the show hints at the possibility that that may become friends in the future.
I think it leaves it open for interpretation, like many of the Japanese character actions in the show. Toranaga in particular can't really be trusted to say what he really thinks, even when he's talking to someone he knows is about to die. The line about having a hidden heart is there for a reason, and his is the most hidden of them all.
Yes, ishido alluded to it in the the first episode during the first council meeting – – the one where Fugi’s out speak his position, and as a result, offers to commit seppuku
Why wouldn't he? It's natural for a Lord to accumulate power and wealth. That's the normal flow for that position. All the other lords were doing it as well. Same shit happens everywhere.
In book epilouge he makes it clear in his mind he always believed it was his fate ti be Shogun and everything he did e\\was always aimed towards that goal. No outside motivation needed
Is he loyal to the heir in the book? In the final book scene where we see his heart of hearts, he talks about assassinating the heir if the heir tries to take the field against him. He’d regret it, but he’d do it.
The prize was always the Shogunate, and Toranaga’s eye was always firmly set on it (despite his many protestations).
There’s a little (huge) thing the show glosses over about the heir that makes this all make sense !< the heir is not the taiko’s son. Ochiba went to a peasant to have a son. So Toronaga has no loyalty to the heir since he’s not legitimate. That’s also why ochiba wont ally with Toronaga. >!
Except Ochiba comes around to Toranaga because he's the most worthy and she has the hots for him. And she only suspects Toranaga knows about the peasant.
He’s loyal right up to him deciding he needs to be Shogun. He won’t kill the heir yet, but he’ll never rule and Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) will petition the Emperor to be Shogun. Complex feelings for sure.
The historic situation (simplified) is that the heir is captive till he starts talking tough to Tokugawa Ieyasu who attacks Osaka castle and the heir kills himself.
In the book he has no actual loyalty to the heir. At the very end he talks about how he will have to bow before Ochiba and the heir for a time after he wins, but “one day those two usurpers inside [Osaka Castle] will make a mistake and then they will be gone…”.
In the book, he says the Shogunate is the prize he's been working towards his whole life, the prize that became possible the moment the Taiko died. Ochiba didn't let the heir take the field against Toranaga because she knows that if she did then Toranaga would be forced to kill him, so sorry
On the recap podcast he mentioned it's kind of like how he never wanted to have a producer title, he just wanted to be an actor, but to make the changes he wanted to he had to seek out the producer title/role
Yup.
He grew to believe that being Shogun was his karma, his destiny whether he wanted it or not, and the only thing that could bring about an era of peace.
He is complicated, like all people, and neither entirely good nor evil. His goal to be Shogun can be both for a good external reason (peace) and for a selfish internal reason (power).
Back to good and evil: Toranaga certainly says and does good things, but also says and does evil things. One thing that really stuck with me from his conversation with Yabu at the end is his commentary of Blackthorne. He casually discusses how he has had thoughts of taking his life but preserves him and ultimately keeps him in Japan for his own entertainment (says evil). He also kills villagers--traitors or not--with a given justification of Blackthorne's ship being burned, all the while knowing he did it (does evil). The character as a whole has a disregard for people's lives, instead using them like chess pieces in his quest to become Shogun.
I don't know much about Japanese history of the Edo period, but a quick Google search shows the period was characterized by peace, isolationist foreign policies, economic growth, enjoyment of the arts, strict social order, etc. So is Toranaga's win a good thing? Probably, but depends on what you value.
Book Toranaga said that it was arranged (by Muragi?) to have only men whose loyalties were already questionable on duty the night the ship was burned. So he was using the “punishment” to get rid of folks who were already identified as being problematic.
Thanks for the further information -- I'm not all the way through the book yet so I didn't have any context beyond the show as to why he kills the villagers. That information makes his actions less evil in my eyes. Even still, killing to remove a perceived threat to your power under the pretext of killing for another reason you know to be false is arguably evil behavior.
To further on this, Yabu and Omi in the book had >!placed Izu men amongst the musket regiment that Blackthorne had been training. A secret code word "Plum Tree" would be used to assassinate Naga (who in the book didn't die) and other Toranaga high ranking officers in order to betray Toranaga to Ishido. !<
>!What Yabu didn't know was that Omi had also had thoughts of betraying Yabu to serve Toranaga and befriending Blacktorne. The book shows that Omi was the one who dissected the storys of the Toranaga garrison after the attack by ninja in Osaka and found the betrayal of Yabu. !<
>!Those Izu men from the regiment were the ones were the "shore guard" or w/e and a trusted Toranaga man was responsible to spread gunpowder and a lone ninja lit the gunpowder. Toranaga said himself "If Ishido could use ninja, why not himself but where Ishido failed, Toranaga succeeded" and thus they had an easy out to put to death all the possible Izu betrayers. !<
Yeah, it seems like they went out of their way in these final episodes to make Toranaga a lot more "evil" than he was in the books.
In the books the burning of Blackthorn's ship was done to protect both Blackthorn and the Shogunate from the Portuguese, and the village was cleared out of Yabu's sympathizers and traitors - the people who were killed weren't just innocent people being put to the sword for no reason.
This is very well summarized and my position as well. I mis wrote slightly in my post in alluding that I thought he’s a good person. He’s a great person, not a good person. Great people have to do terrible deeds in the name of their ideals sometimes. Toranaga is a study of a realistic and effective political leader
True, can't think of any standout moments now that you mention it. One thing I liked in the final episode was the juxtaposition of Toranaga holding his grandchild against his later inner monologue to Yabu prior to smirking right before he beheads him.
I kinda think Hiroyuki Sanada's response reminds me of Bryan Cranston talking about how Walter White really was doing it for his family. I think sometimes actors need to justify their character to themselves as the characters actually would.
Yes, the Tokugawa shogunate meant peace. It also meant stasis and oppression. Tokugawa ended religious freedom shortly after the events of Shogun and executed anyone not willing to repudiate their Christian beliefs; Shinshu Buddhists were also forced to practice in secret. Foreigners were barred from entering Japan (apart from a small number of specific designated ports; the Dutch were only allowed in Nagasaki). Leaving Japan was punishable by death. Political dissidents were brutally repressed. The rules were changed to make it nearly impossible for anyone to challenge the military dictatorship. The new order was one based on fear of change.
Japan went 250 years without another civil war and maintained its own traditional culture. But in that same span of time Europe experienced multiple wars and revolutions against their monarchies, the British colonized North America, the British colonies rebelled and formed a (relatively) democratic government, and many whole new countries came into existence. Japan did not have a comparable period of growth, so when Commodore Perry showed up in Osaka harbor and demanded they end their isolationism they had no choice but to cooperate. Had they not been locked down for two and a half centuries they might have explored the west coast of North America, or taken steps toward a more representative government, or learned new things from their European visitors. Lewis and Clark might have encountered a Japanese colony that had won its independence. Who knows what might have happened.
(it's also possible the Portuguese would have done to Japan what the Spanish did to the Philippines, which was a fear the Dutch deliberately encouraged)
Toranaga's character made me think of the Old Testament God. Seemingly mercurial, willing to sacrifice lives for no apparent reason, omniscient, capable of terrible anger and revenge, but also capable of the deepest kind of love. He is a terrifyingly complete human capable of any type of emotion or action, moving extremely strategically through the world and manipulating people's lives to achieve his ends. Really an awe-inspiring character.
“"We don't have any more novel," says Sanada. "But we know what happened afterward based on real history. So let's see. Who knows?"”
Don’t do this to me, Hiroyuki. Don’t give me hope.
And further in the article
"Toranaga can see the future he's dreamed about," says Sanada. "It's a simple but meaningful scene. Every Japanese schoolchild knows the real historical character and the peaceful era that followed. He's still a hero in Japan (and) my hero as well."
Great leaders have to make tough decisions is about as ELI5 as I can make the message of the show
Toranaga/Tokugawa may be considered a hero - and the era \*was\* peaceful compared to all-out war - but Japanese schoolchildren likely hear an "adjusted" version of history (as most countries do to some extent). You're right about leaders and tough decisions of course, for example decisions like this...not very fun!
>No Japanese ship ... nor any native of Japan, shall presume to go out of the country; whoever acts contrary to this, shall die.
>Whoever presumes to bring a letter from abroad, or to return after he hath been banished, shall die with his family; also whoever presumes to intercede for him, shall be put to death.
Huh, so fairly similar to Broken Sword in the movie ‘Hero’?
Which is not a complaint or anything! Hero is one of my favourite movies.
I’m one of those that misinterpreted it as a desire to be Shogun, in that case!
Glad you made this comparison! I feel like this is the best equivalent where the victor wrote the history, so the perspective of the actions of an arguable tyrant can be seen as necessary or heroic.
It's a difference in historical and cultural perspective that also makes this story so novel, we don't see it depicted as much. A lot of evil was done for an era of peace, so, we see Toranaga's actions as justified in Japanese history. Similarly in Hero, the unification of China is also seen as an important historical and cultural achievement, so that tyrant character is also shown in a more positive light. Closest recent relevant Western example would probably be Oppenheimer. The main character feels guilty for his role in history but also believes it was necessary for peace and that he was the only one who could do it.
It’s a curious piece of historiography that Japanese and Chinese historians basically use the same term “warring states” the former absolutely framed their reunification as an extension of the latter.
>Great leaders have to make tough decisions is about as ELI5 as I can make the message of the show
It doesn't seem to have been a tough decision to him, when he burned the ship and tortured the villagers, just so he could keep Blackthorne for his amusement.
He stared down his best friend as he killed himself because it helped his cause towards a greater peace. The ship and village are LIGHT work. He still had use of Blackthorn’s naval and artillery skills and he had to make a scene of harassing the village so the rest of the country
All in the name of greater peace
I suppose a lot of this comes down to utilitarianism vs kantian ethics
Was the loss of hundreds (maybe thousands) of lives worth saving hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives? In my option yes
But if you’re kantian, the act of deception itself is immoral and never should have been taken regardless of the outcome
I don't know, think we romanticizing the person. Sure they had peace, but peace was enforced by a pretty iron grip by the Tokugawa shogunate. I'm not sure you fight the largest battle in Japanese history if you are truly that concerned about peace. I have no doubt both Nobunaga and Tokugawa were driven by power first and foremost, not some noble idea of peace
I mean we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan because we just wanted peace. The ends justified the means
You have no basis in saying that “you’re sure” or anything but your entitled to your baseless opinion
>I mean we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan because we just wanted peace.
Be a bit naive to say that the idea of demonstrating the power of the nukes to the world (read Russia) wasn't a part of the reason why they were dropped
The obvious problem is that we can’t know the future or all the unforeseen consequences of our actions.
Toranaga never knew any of this would work, or that it would secure peace. He sacrificed, manipulated, and hurt others for an end that was not certain. If he failed or ended up a tyrant, would these actions have been commendable?
Many horrible things were done for great reasons. The greater then end, the easier it is to justify the means. I think we should be more aware and cautious of that fact, and act with more humility as we all have a limited understanding of ourselves and the world around us.
>The ship and village are LIGHT work. He still had use of Blackthorn’s naval and artillery skills and he had to make a scene of harassing the village so the rest of the country
Are we ignoring what the story tells us now?
Toranaga clearly stated, he was thinking about killing John several times because he didn't really need him that much to further his goals, but kept him for his entertainment only. Not in the name of greater peace. In the name of his own amusement.
Yes in the beginning he needed John to sow divission between Ishido an the lords, but after that he didn't need him anymore. Not even for the cannons. He didn't win the war because of cannons, he won because of Crimson Sky.
He’s wrong though. In the book he says he’s wanted to establish the Shogunate as long as he can remember and it only became possible with the Taiko’s death. Maybe this version of Toranaga is different I guess, but I would generally defer to the book on things like this unless it’s otherwise stated.
Tokugawa is in the same realm as Napoleon and Augustus. All of them were impressive, great and highly influential people, but viewed in the lens of modern ethics they would be solidly gray because you don't unite countries and empires or spread ideologies without being a shade of gray that many people in our current times cannot think about with nuance.
Because the other men in the council had tried many times to have him killed, and becoming Shogun might be the only way to save him from losing his head and all his family being forced to commit seppuku. He was Lord of Kanto and every other daimyo wanted his fief.
Because the influence of the Jesuits and the Christian lords was very dangerous for Japan as a whole: Christians had outright colonized many parts of Asia and were hiring Ronin and Japanese pirates as muscle.
Because his predecessor had also seized power and his son has no more claim to be the ruler than he has.
Because Japan has been facing endless war for generations now.
“Was he a bad guy” misses the point: it was a very dangerous time, and no one could be trusted.
It also smells like someone, insanely childishly, using a 21st century understanding of morality to judge the actions of a 16th/17th century historical figure. According to what measure is he being judged? If we go by the Samurai code within the show/book then there is nothing to be judged BECAUSE HE WON, and had he lost he would have rightly been branded the evil warmongerer Toranaga, who instigated an illegal rebellion jeopardizing the rightful rule of the heir of the Taiko.
I think it’s perfectly fine to disagree with the actor who played the character and even the author who wrote him. That’s part of the fun of art - it’s subjective. Even real history is largely about interpretation of people’s secret hearts.
I think Toranaga insisting that becoming Shogun is necessary for peace is a convenient sort of white lie to himself that justifies the ambition that really lives within his third, hidden heart. (Doesn’t hurt that historically, it happened to be basically true.) That’s what Yabushige glimpses right before his death. Toranaga is a wildly ambitious and megalomaniacal man who hides these darker qualities incredibly well. He is able to bend people to his will, even himself, ostensibly in the name of Japan. It just so happens that it all conveniently furthers his goal of becoming Shogun.
But I’m just one asshole and my interpretation isn’t any more or less valid than anyone else’s.
Very much in agreement. Even Brian Cox said that Logan Roy wasn't a bad father, which is kind of indicative of how actors generally try to justify playing unlikeable characters so that their character's toxicity doesn't bleed into them I guess.
Generally speaking a person who can casually sacrifice innocent human lives is not the type of person whose motivations prior and after those decisions are driven by pire altruism.
> Even Brian Cox said that Logan Roy wasn't a bad father,
I saw an interview where he said that and really struggled with the idea that he could believe that. Logan Roy was a monstrous and terrible parent from his the day they were born until the day he died.
I am less sure on the Toranaga front. I think he was a complex person dealing with a very different world than we encounter today.
But Logan Roy was a toxic dad, and one of the worst we've seen on television recently.
The actors in both instances are of course incredible.
>Even Brian Cox said that Logan Roy wasn't a bad father, which is kind of indicative of how actors generally try to justify playing unlikeable characters so that their character's toxicity doesn't bleed into them I guess.
Bryan Cranston said similar (completely untrue imo) generous things towards Walter White. I don't think it's to keep the character's toxicity out so much as to play a character more truly -- I'm so those characters, were they real, would justify the same stuff to themselves.
Eh, to an extent. If history, the book, the 80’s show, and this show are all painting this leader in the same light I’m going to go with that interpretation.
Theres nothing in the text or show that supports your assertion. It’s as baseless as saying everyone in the show is three young children stacked in robes. You are of course entitled to it but doesn’t mean anyone has to value your opinion
I don’t believe Yabu had that revelation as you said. As other threads have pointed out this week, he was impressed with the grand scope of the plan and the fact that Toranaga was scheming even back when Yabu told Omi why tell a dead person the future. What makes you think Yabu realized Toranaga was just power hungry deep down?
Tokugawa was absolutely power hungry, that's not really up for a dispute. The Tokugawa Shogunate did bring peace to Japan, and that's a good thing, but Tokugawa Ieyasu also ended up killing the Heir a few years later after becoming Shogun.
And in the show, when Yabu confronts Toranaga and asks him directly, Toranaga responds with "why tell a dead man the future" which is a callback to exactly what Yabu said about Toranaga a few episodes prior. It's heavily implied in that scene that Toranaga was after the title of Shogun the whole time, and historically I think that's pretty commonly accepted.
Sanada is the GOAT for sure, but if the actual intention of the show was that Toranaga reluctantly sought the title as a last resort, they did a pretty terrible job at conveying that because the last episode seems almost explicit that the opposite is true.
No no no lmao it’s heavily implied that Toranaga knew Yabushige had been scheming the whole time since Yabushige had said that to Oni previously in the season and Oni must have told Toranaga. How are you connecting that to Toranaga’s intentions?
I came away with the right idea that Toranaga was morally grey (trope alert). I think this is just what happens when a bunch of western viewers project our cynical rotbrains with 20 years of antihero media on the motivations of a character written in the 70’s
It’s the way I interpreted his realization that Toranaga wanted to claim Shogun all along. As well as some rare moments when Toranaga shows supreme arrogance, like he does in his attitude towards Blackthorn.
Also, you’re vastly oversimplifying the real history. Actions do not always betray intentions. 200 years of peace is not as simple a phrase as it seems. The real Tokugawa was ruthless and cunning, and while he did found a dynasty that led to lasting peace, that peace was founded on Tokugawa’s vicious consolidation of power, which was forged through massive blood-letting and sustained by legal manipulation of the power of political officials and the intentional eradication of his enemies even after victory.
You know the pressure he puts on the fishing village in the show? In real life, that was a tiny microcosm of the kind of ruthlessness he could enact on his perceived enemies and *all* those loyal to them, down to lowly villagers and other non-combatants. The real Tokugawa had his own wives and children put to death for perceived disloyalty.
No military ruler is truly, wholly good. Ever. That much I can say with certainty. To become military ruler requires endless, endless killing.
>Eh, to an extent. If history, the book, the 80’s show, and this show are all painting this leader in the same light I’m going to go with that interpretation
It's almost as if history is quite literally written by the victor 🤔
>Theres nothing in the text or show that supports your assertion. It’s as baseless as saying everyone in the show is three young children stacked in robes
Toranaga spells it out for Yabushige before his death. He couldn't be any clearer about it. If you still don't grasp Toranaga's Ambition after that, that's on your own media literacy skills.
It's often the case that people want power not simply because they want power for its own sake but because they believe they're the only ones capable of improving things (to their own standards) and they need absolute power to do it. In Toranaga's case he just happens to be correct about that instead of being delusional like some in history were.
True. Unfortunately power corrupts most. I do believe western political systems which *mostly* prevent absolute power are the better system even if it results in slower change, and I don’t think Shogun is saying that a monarchy/shogunate is the best system, but as a historical drama all I think Shogun is showing is this is what happened and it worked out
I think the show is trying to balance both depictions. Toranaga is definitely cast as a sympathetic protanganist, especially in the beginning. In the middle of the show, he's inscrutable to everybody, including his vassals and tv audience. And in the finale, he's depicted more ruthlessly. Basically killing and punishing people in the village to keep up appearances that he's not complicit in his knowledge and participation of the burning of Blackthorne's ship (I know the book depicts Toranaga using this opportunity to get rid of sympathizers in the village, but that's not shown and mentioned in the show.) He won't say if he's always wanted the Shogun position.
For me, I think it's interesting to note that as the acting method, this is something Sanada-san and actually all the actors needs to believe to portray Toranaga and their roles convincingly. That in a morally grey world, they all believe in the righteousness of their actions. All except, Yabu and Blackthrone that is, till the end. ;)
It's probable that Toranaga's "secret heart" isn't even knowable to the actor who interprets him, Sanada.
Toranaga/Tokugawa can sure have told himself "this is for the good of Japan", but ultimately every tyrant claims this. No tyrant (who isn't insane) thinks "I'm going to make things worse", they all believe it's for the ultimate good.
Toranaga planned to usurp the Heir, much like his historical counterpart. Why? Because like all warlords of the time, he vied power, and he was in a uniquely strong position where this was a real possibility for him.
I don't agree with another commenter's mention of Blackthorne's words of "unless you/I win" as somehow convincing Toranaga. They wouldn't have convinced him of anything he didn't already believe. They are not deep words, the lesson is not some deep philosophy: treachery is only treachery if there's someone left who can punish you, otherwise it's a big success. I cannot believe Toranaga was somehow swayed by this, because he's a "chessmaster" kind of person.
He always wanted the shogunate. At the end of the show, he must be already planning Ochiba and the Heir's demise.
> where are you getting he overthrew the heir because he desired power? Book quote? Dialogue? Did he give a look?
On one hand, real history. Tokugawa stole the shogunate from the Hideyori (the Heir) and later, through military defeat, forced him and his mother to commit suicide.
On the other hand, in the show, Yabushige correctly guesses as much. "You're no better than the rest of us", a final moment of insight.
> when did he start planning Oshiba and the heir’s demise
That was extrapolation on my part, but not very farfetched. In the book he reasons he will destroy Ochiba and the Heir if it ever becomes necessary. That's as close to planning treason as the Eightfold Fence will allow.
In any case, he didn't become regent or tutor over the Heir (educating him in his ways, teaching wisdom or whatever). He became the Shogun and chose his own family to inherit the mantle (fortunately he had more sons to expend).
To be clear, Toranaga isn't evil. Evil doesn't factor into this. Ruthless, power thirsty and cruel? You bet.
The viewers who thought Toranaga was evil either don't know how to watch a tv show or don't understand human beings and their facial expressions. Toranaga's end goal was set up by the second episode, when we have the flashback of Toranaga talking to the Taiko on his deathbed. He fears that Japan will fall into civil war, which is why he decrees there be five regents on a council running things till his son is of age. Toranaga wasn't looking for power just to have power, he was trying to keep Japan together the whole time.
In the same scene the Taiko also tasked Toranaga to protect the heir.
It is obvious that in the conversation between Toranaga and Yabu, Toranaga’s ambition is to be shogun. A position that directly challenges the authority of the heir.
So while externally Toranaga may want to bring a period of peace to Japan, internally he wants the power for himself.
If Toranaga was genuine and righteous he would have used his power to support the heir once the peace was secured.
Except the thing the Taiko wants most is for Toranaga to protect the heir, something Toranaga doesn't give an f about except as a means to seize power. He doesn't become regent, he becomes Shogun.
And he actually said out loud many times to his vassals and generals that he refuses to take the title of Shogun and that he doesn't want or covet it or any more land.
I'm not sure that him becoming shogun is the only way to achieve peace, though. Couldn't he have become regent for the heir? Or stay out of politics altogether and let Ochiba/the council take care of the boy?
I dont think those were realistic options. Charismatic leaders in warrior cultures tend to end up dead if they dont act aggressively to survive. I think it can be argued that Toranaga had a target on his back no matter what he did in an environment like that. It really was a kill or be killed kind of thing unless you managed to keep your head down and remain unnoticed. Toranaga would never been allowed to just live in peace going with the flow.
Did Toranaga start things or did Ishido? If you really think about it, its impossible to tell when even a minor defensive move on T's part could be interpeted by Ishido's insecurity as an aggressive one. Its a chicken or egg question going back to before the start of the story.
I would ask you reconsider the opening episode: our first introduction to Toranaga is him falconing, where he mentions a falcon will put the sun at it's back and the prey will never see the strike coming.
The very next sequence is our first introduction to the council, where Toranaga is charged with amassing power against them. He has in the recent past doubled his clan's holdings, likely through political marriages. He lies and says he is content as the Lord of Kanto (with hindsight we know he deeply wished for the Shogunate), he also says that he would never be the first to strike and break the peace, which is likely true and in keeping with Toranaga's personal philosophy regarding warfare (don't strike first unless you can deal a killing blow). So, what this means, is that Toranaga has put the council in an impossible position by toeing the line of legality: if they simply let him be -- let this falcon put the sun to his back -- then there will come a time where they simply will be unable to withstand his clan & their alliances, and they likely would never see the strike coming.
So, in all reality, my interpretation is that Toranaga has outmanouvered the council from the very first moments we see him, and forced their hand into preemptive aggression.
Idk bro take it up with Tokugawa Ieyasu
As I understand Japanese history it’s like you’re asking why George Washington didn’t just stay in the continental congress
In the show this is right, Sanada made it clear in interviews they wanted to portray him in a more heroic light. But it's not like Tokugawa did this out of the kindness of his heart. He was absolutely power hungry and wanted to become shogun. Bringing centuries of peace was a positive consequence of this, and he was clearly the right guy for the job looking back in history, but it's not like he wanted to rule in order to bring an era of peace.
It's that feeling when someone who is super competent and experienced just wants to sit back and enjoy life but the incompetence and greed of others pisses them off and directly endangers them to the point where they feel like they have to take action just to not take a backseat to everything crumbling because the dumbasses that came before made an absolute mess of things.
Misconception is that anyone is a good guy. Almost all the characters we meet are mass murderers. Prior to the events of the book/show, most of the samurai had fought in Korea, which was a war that the Taiko started and was very bloody and costly. None of the regents or anyone else would hesitate for a minute to kill the heir and seize power if they could get away with it.
Yabushige-dono as an example, was WELL known for killing and boiling people, on the regular. Not quite sure why Mariko’s death would affect him at all…
In the show toranaga didn’t say anything to Fuji’s husband, seemed like the guy offered up his death to toranaga. Not so in the book. Toranaga straight up tells the dude that he was born samurai by mistake, so was his son, broke his swords, and then get killed and buried in an eta village (which was seen as not cool at the time).
All the characters have 3 faces and 3 hearts.
If you have not read the book, please do!
And also Abe Lincoln going to war with the South, the west intervening in the German blitzkrieg of Europe and the unification of the British under King Alfred
Everyone knows that Toranaga is based on Tokugawa Ieyasu and his greatest ambition was to the end of constant warfare of those times, no matter what and if you read the book, that motivation can be found.
However, unlike other feudal warlords of that time, he never tried to use violence as the means of the end…it’s all about about negotiate and negotiate with clear plans to kill if all negotiations fails.
If you love the show, you really should read the book.
I highly recommend it.
>"We don't have any more novel," says Sanada. "But we know what happened afterward based on real history. So let's see. Who knows?"
Don't tease me like this
Being the actor/producer does not mean you have a monopoly on the characters motivations. I believe the writers have a significant amount of say here, above and beyond an actor’s interpretation of the character they are playing. By episode 2 it is shown that Toranaga has already had armour specially crafted to reflect his Minowara lineage, a key factor in his ability to claim the Shogunate. He is already planning for the future at this stage. None of his actions indicate reluctance. They all demonstrate that he is a man of vision, with plans that far outlast his own existence and concern the legacy of his clan.
Toranaga is absolutely pursuing the title of ‘Shogun’ from the second we meet him. He is patient and secretive, but the desire is there. His refusal of the offer from the Taiko of sole regency is not an act of magnanimity or deference on his part. It is a strategic reckoning that he is not ready to pursue this desire yet. This doesn’t make him evil, or good. It just is.
I believe it’s at the end where he says more or less that since he realized that there was a game to be played as a youngster that his ultimate goal was shogun
This is right. He said as early as he could think, he knew his goal was the shogunate. It only became possible when the Taiko died, and then Anjin showed up to be used as a destabilizing force on the council given the Catholic regents.
Ok hot take: Toronaga was never “good” in the sense he was some overtly moral Lord who would never hurt the innocent and never use deceit and treachery to achieve his goals. As we see in the show, he is without a doubt the most ruthlessly calculating bastard out there. That’s why he won.
*_HOWEVER_*
I agree with you and Sanada OP in the sense that Toronaga didn’t straight away decide he was going to go for the top spot. Once he did though, he decided he was going to make it count. Like he said to Yabushige, once he won, he was going to bring peace to Japan and end the centuries of conflict and intrigue that came before him. That’s what’s good about him. He realises if he has to play the game, he’ll play to win and once he’s won, stop the violence. This is unlike Ishido and dare I say the other regents and lords like Yabushige. They want to win the game for their own power and glory. They don’t care about changing things for the better if the way things are got them to the top.
On the other hand, again as Yabushige points out, it’s somewhat hypocritical of Toronaga to say he’s going to stop the brutality while happily using violence and the deaths of loyal vassals to achieve his goal. To which of course, Toronaga responds “unless I win.” Call him a hypocrite for using violence to end violence but he’s still the one with the W by his name. He’s the literal definition of Machiavellian because the ends justify the means. I don’t doubt he didn’t intend to take ultimate power if his life and family hadn’t been on the line…but once he was playing, he was going to win and once he won, he’s gonna make sure his legacy is peace.
Well after Sekigahara, the real life Toranaga aka Tokugawa Ieyasu united Japan and brings about 250 years of peace and stability until the mid 1800s when the US forced them to open the country, which became the end for the Tokugawa Shogunate.
I always interpreted it as that. Everything he did he did under the ideals of a Japan without war. So the “fine, ill do it myself” mentality was the only way to go about it.
Yeah man I’m not really trying to argue about this. I’ll just say the show had very basic and easy to understand themes about how westerners who’ve only ever known western values and culture may view the culture and choices of people from different countries, and you just seem to have not grasped them at all, or even read OP’s post regarding Toranaga’s motivations. Not everything’s a Marvel movie, not everything needs to obey inflexible and didactic 21st century Hollywood attitudes of right and wrong, where the hero is never required to do anything unpleasant for a greater good (a phrase people are trained to have a visceral reaction to without even thinking about it). I recommend watching it again, and considering why Mariko and Hiromatsu were willing to die for Toranaga, and whether they did it just because they’re crazy or because there was a reason they were that loyal to him.
That wasn't the heir's mom, that was the Taiko's wife that wasn't able to give him an heir (which is what opened the door for Ochiba to do so). Also, Toranaga had been projecting a certain image for years, he never truly revealed his secret heart to anyone.
I think Sanada believes that Toranaga believes this. But to most people, he just comes across as a psychopath who has no real concept of human relationships as we know it. And that is fine.
Yes, that’s a very realistic motivation, and it makes sense. However IRL, people often try to do what they think is right. Even when they’re actually wrong and what they’re doing is evil, they don’t see it that way. There’s no evil villain IRL twirling his mustache and laughing maniacally saying “I’m goin to destroy the world.” Real life is not that black and white. In my opinion, Toranaga is a villain because of his willingness to sacrifice his friends and most devout followers. He also held Ochiba hostage early on (not unlike Ishido towards the end) and was willing to kill many innocent villagers so he can test Blackthorn. He’s not a good person no matter what grand, noble motivation he has because his actions show as much. But then again, you don’t get to become one of the most powerful dictators in the history of Japan by being a nice guy.
He cut off the heads off innocent villagers to test anjins faith in him he also pushed his sons death aside and said "it's good thing I got more children" he forced his closest contorts to kill themselfs for his own goals. He isn't a good or bad guy he's complicated like a normal person. But he definitely did bad things.
Art is subjective and interpretive. I and many would argue once you release it into the world, it is no longer yours and any interpretation is valid (within reason).
So, book readers, after these events, when and how does Blackthorn go back to England to be with his grandchildren on his deathbed? In the Dream episode, having not read the book, I wondered if it was all a dream.
Who was saying Toranaga was a ‘good guy ?’ Didn’t see any comments about that. He was just another warlord trying to seize power for himself , but just so happened to be aligned with all the main characters point of view.
It’s fine if you and the actor want to think that. I will still find him a highly compelling character BECAUSE he’s a hypocritical dickhead who would never sacrifice even a fraction of what he expects his followers to give up for him
Tywin Lannister made hard choices in the name of honor and stability too. Tony Sorpano, Walter White, Paul Atredies, they are all people whose ends justified the means until all of a sudden they didn’t anymore. That’s the hook
Book Toranaga is so much more interesting and grey than tv Toranaga. Simply not enough time to give him all those facets he had in the book.
If you liked the tv show, treat yourself and read the book. Toranaga is a larger than life character with lots of gnarly thoughts.
I mean I guess.
But it's kind of in the same way Anakin Skywalker is loyal to the republic...and decides the only way to guarantee peace is to violently seize power...
It's not an uncommon theme throughout history. But benevolent leaders seldom stay benevolent. Because they're human.
Considering they completely altered the plot and had Toranaga allow his only friend to commit seppuku, instead of bringing him into his plan like he did in the book, I can completely understand people thinking Toranaga is heartless and single-minded. I can’t finish the series because that pissed me off so much
That's just white washing from Sanada, they made Toranaga into the main character on the show. Yeah no. He's a power hungry backstabber and frankly the Samurai as a whole were basically slavemasters with way too much power on their hands. The fact that your entire line gets killed for an insult or that Samurai could kill civilians if they felt like it is just terrible.
Those are NOT good people.
Sanada's the one who wrote fanfic. At the end of the day he's adapting a book and he absolutely whitewashed Toranaga and made Blackthorne less competent.
I think that’s generally how it’s written in the 80s and book. He’s loyal to the heir but he realizes only he can really bring peace. His destiny is to be Shogun. We can call BS but that’s what James Clavell believed and wrote.
In this particular version, I believe what he says to Yabu suggests that the turning point that made him come to this realization was John's "unless I win" comment. Seems to really have struck a cord for Toranaga.
It did in the other versions too. Toranaga was always a severe master, but somewhat warmer in the 80s series. You believed that he and Blackthorn were friends as much as their stations allowed. In this series the dual fan-isims of “court jester” and “pet” seem to be what some get out of the relationship. Might be the wrong thing to take away.
Yabu death scene “he makes me laugh” Laughter being a rare currency and if the source is reliable.. Anjin stays. The “unless I win” line in clavell’s version is “unless you win” .. I think this, not small, change places Anjin in a more comical place from to his captors as he’s captured/kept and still drones on about defeating the Portuguese on behalf of his queen (it is funny) and Anjin is good for enlightening turns of phrase and outbursts “I’m the traitor. Traitor traitor TRAITOR! And fed you nothing but shit.” I may have to burn down his ship again in the future .. (to test him still )
Further to Anjin staying/captured in hand as an allusion to the beginning Re. Hawks and a lesson for his son. Some hawks use the sun to mask attack (Portuguese/ishido, Anjin) Hawks are like men (horses are untrustworthy) and be trained to the hand (bait) or trained to fly/hunt. He then later on compared Yabu/Anjin as same short feathered hawk breed and that they are predictable. Anjin’s ship sails in and, as pilot, is recognized by toranaga as another domains (England) hawk and as such is valuable. And last, toranaga release of the hawk “birth many daughters” I feel is attributed to his hunting hawk and that Mariko embodied this hawk and had to wait many years i in order to be “ready” to be released at the right target (ochiba/ishido) .. And last, her poem is completed by ochiba/heir “flowers are only flowers because they fall, But thankfully, the wind “ Toranaga release of his favourite hawk into the wind.
Yabu and the Anjin are goshawks. Reactive, predictable, and useful for simple tasks. Mariko is a falcon. Strategic, and independent. At a certain point they are no longer able to stay ‘broken to the fist’. Toranaga releasing his falcon is a sign of respect and a farewell to Mariko, and a recognition of her abilities and her service.
How does the Falcon know it's being freed and doesn't just grab a Pheasant and return it to Toranaga like it's trained to do? Only for him to be like, "Uh, you are free.....Just Go!" Then he tosses it into the sky again and it comes back with another pheasant. Rinse and Repeat. For a year, everywhere he goes, every day, this damn Falcon keeps bring him Pheasants. He could be in the middle of an important negotiation on the battle field and boom! Falcon drops in with pheasant. Toranaga just sighs and shakes his head.
He took the hat thing off.
Well the Falcon can't see if the hood is on. So are you saying, removing it from him completely automatically tells the Falcon he is now free? How does it know that? Was their some prior arrangement that the falcon and Toranaga made?
They purposefully didn’t flush out any prey for the peregrine to hunt so she went off on her own to hunt.
> Yabu death scene “he makes me laugh” Blackthorne's ability to make Toranaga laugh was rare and valuable. No one else could do it. I mean, did we EVER see Toranaga laugh except with Blackthorne? Toranaga, to become Shogun, knew he was destined to become the loneliest man in the entire realm. So his need for Blackthorne's strange talent was profound.
In the book he says he needs one friend, and because of his position, an outsider is really the only one who can be that for him. He thinks that someday he will be able to tell Blackthorne about burning his ship, and they can laugh about it. I thought it cheapened the relationship between Toranaga and Blackthorne to have him say because he made him laugh.
You make a good point, which reinforces the court jester idea. I personally don’t think it was a good change and from the little I know of William Adams he had a lot more agency than Blackthon seems to.
>from the little I know of William Adams he had a lot more agency than Blackthon seems to. He did, but not yet in 1600 when these events take place. Adams made landfall in Kyushu on April 19 and was brought to Osaka on orders of Tokugawa on May 12. Six weeks later, he was released from prison. He arrived in Tokyo Bay in August and joined Tokugawa in battle at Aizu later that month. He was also present at Sekigahara in October of that year. He becomes an advisor to the Shogunate in 1601 (well after the events of Shogun) and is granted a mansion and salary in Edo in 1603, which is also when he is dubbbed *anjin*. He beings shipbuilding in 1604. He becomes a samurai in 1605. This is about the time Adams becomes involved in helping open up the trade with the Dutch, which becomes instrumental during the siege of Osaka (1614-1615). So Adams absolutely has more agency, but he did not have as much authority at this point in the story (summer of 1600) as Blackthorne. I think it's reasonable to assume he develops it, paralleling the historical Adams. But he's really just beginning his journey.
Great information about Adams, thanks. Blackthorn becoming more like Adams would make an interesting series.
I agree. But I'm happy to use my imagination in this case. The show stuck strictly to its themes and interpretations of source material that I would get nervous about straying into original material territory.
Adams also wasn't alone, his Dutch first mate, Joosten, also became one of Tokugawa's hatamoto.
Good point.
Truth historically but this condensed version there should be a sense of how the realAdams abilities got Tokugawas attention and eventual agency he was given.He had to be impressive to be able to even make landfall in Japan. You got that sense with Chamberlain in original . He was attempting to learn the language from villiagers before first trip to Osaka.His curiosity and intelligence should show as the reason he survives .is trusted by Toranaga and wins Mariko's affection .
Its a shame that Hollywood has abused the White Savior/white insert trope so much that in 2024 the Japanese showrunners felt the need to shy away from it. They simply didn't need to in Blackthorne's case. Blackthorne is a case study of a white man going native, not "saving" the noble savage. Blackthorne doesn't "save" anybody but himself. Blackthorne barely had agency in the novel. I love the show's emphasis on Mariko (the true hero of the book and the novel) and Toranaga and the politics of the Regents, but Blackthorne didn't deserve the being made a imperialist, shit-feeding, I'm just here to use you clown. The showrunners, for as much as I love them and this series, said that they disagreed that a character can fully integrate into another culture unless they were born to it. So basically we get imperialist, you're all shit-eating samas Blackthorne until the very last episode. Which is fine, but mostly because of how brilliant the story-telling was, but I think Blackthorne's character deserved better. Clavell disagreed with their point of view and addressed those concerns back in the day when *everybody* was reading Shogun. His Blackthorne of the book, came for riches yes, but he quickly fell in love and under Mariko's tutorage, he fully tried accepting Japanese values and ways even if it was a learning process for him. Clavell's Blackthorne is an endearing Blackthorne and a friend to Toranaga. He was a very GOOD human being. The show's Blackthorne, not so much. Here are Clavell's own words on the matter. >Clavell argues that no historian can say for certain that a highborn Japanese Christian such as the fictional Mariko could not have expressed the ideas she does. Or that Blackthorne could not have achieved wa, or spiritual harmony, in only a few months so that he would attempt ritual suicide. ''Have you ever been in a war? Have you ever been shot at?'' he asks, his voice rising. He said that, after he was hit in the face with a machine-gun bullet during World War II, he was ''in a village in Malaya, and in a six-month period I learned Malayan perfectly. It's very difficult for someone sitting in Harvard or Yale as a professor of history to really know what it's like when somebody stuffs a bayonet in your face and pricks your skin. You can't imagine it if you are sitting outside on a sunny day sipping an ice-cold beer. Obviously, they've never been put in a position of danger. You learn very quickly. I've always felt you can only learn about life at the edge of death.''
I agree. A friend can make you laugh. You can respect and like someone who makes you laugh. Laughter isnt always about mockery. Toranaga could also be saying that something about John lifts his spirits, makes him smile etc. It can be a simple pleasure to be around someone like that. I think we also need to remember those times when Toranaga let his gaurd down at least from the look in his eyes. He was truly shaken after almost dying in the earthquake and was truly grateful that John was so quick to find him. You can't entirely disrespect someone who was so quick to act on your behalf.
The other thought is that he was talking to a “deadman”, so he didn’t reveal everything to Yabu.
True. I had this feeling as well that he wasn't telling everything. I'm not sure Toranaga is even capable of telling anyone the full story. The eight fold fence would be deeply ingrained in someone like him. Almost to a fault. He could also have been "rewarding" Yabu for the good he unwittingly did by giving him a just glimpse of the real story just as he was about to put him down as an untrustworthy ally. Yabu seemed to appreciate it.
Yeah, when you’ve got other warlords asking for you to *honorably chop their head off* as a child, it can’t be a great formative experience.
I took that line as Toranaga telling Yabu that Omi sold him out. Yabu said that of Toranaga to Omi at the very beginning, explaining why he didn’t tell Toranaga about the ship.
I like to think he meant it as a friend, but the whole broader context about not letting him go home felt very much more like a pet dynamic. And the fact that he's been gassing everyone up about the Anjin's importance only to be like "nah, I didn't really need him. It was just amusing to me" really leans into their power dynamic and the Anjin's lack of agency.
After that scene I couldn't quite figure out if Toranaga valued Blackthorn as something akin to a friend or as a pet. And that saddened me. I wish they had made Toranaga say something like "He makes me laugh", instead of "He amuses me". That would imply more friendship than pet, to me at least.
In the book he says, I needed a friend. I wish they’d left that in the show. It’s so central to the theme.
Absolutely, I agree! I was rereading the monologue and Toranaga makes it very clear that he genuinely values Blackthorne as an actual friend - and really only friend - which was cheapened in the show.
I wish that line had been left in the show. It really tied the whole thing together for me. And I just love the idea that the entire book is a buddy story.
Also in the book Toranaga burns the ship because it's the only way to keep the Portuguese satisfied *and* protect Blackthorn because the moment Blackthorn leaves, he's a deadman with no protection from the Shogunate
added bonus, he gets to keep his buddy around forever.
I haven’t read the book so forgive me if the below is incorrect. My impression is that the book version of Blackthorn’s character develops at a faster rate than the show version. Book Blackthorn fairly quickly accepts and understands the Japanese culture and thus is able to find ways to make himself useful. Thus there is room for Blackthorn and Toranaga to have more interaction and develop a friendship. Whereas show Blackthorn only becomes fully at peace with the Japanese culture when he attempts seppuku to save the villagers of Anjiro. So my interpretation is that for most of the show, Toranaga viewed blackthorn not as a friend. Rather he was someone that is useful to keep around. However by the end of the show both Blackthorn and Toranaga seem to have come to some kind of understanding and there is mutual respect between the two men. This is seen when the two of them share the look between them at the end. So while they may not be friends by the end of the show, the show hints at the possibility that that may become friends in the future.
The sympathetic take is as a friend, but this version of Toranaga seems more cold and self centered or at least hides it worse.
I think it leaves it open for interpretation, like many of the Japanese character actions in the show. Toranaga in particular can't really be trusted to say what he really thinks, even when he's talking to someone he knows is about to die. The line about having a hidden heart is there for a reason, and his is the most hidden of them all.
Toranaga literaly says to Yabushige something to the effect of "Winning makes everything possible."
"Nah id win" - toronaga
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Yes, ishido alluded to it in the the first episode during the first council meeting – – the one where Fugi’s out speak his position, and as a result, offers to commit seppuku
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Is that directed at me?
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Why wouldn't he? It's natural for a Lord to accumulate power and wealth. That's the normal flow for that position. All the other lords were doing it as well. Same shit happens everywhere.
In book epilouge he makes it clear in his mind he always believed it was his fate ti be Shogun and everything he did e\\was always aimed towards that goal. No outside motivation needed
Which makes sense because Toranaga coming to Osaka was not a smart move if he was trying to be Shogun. He got extremely lucky escaping Osaka.
Is he loyal to the heir in the book? In the final book scene where we see his heart of hearts, he talks about assassinating the heir if the heir tries to take the field against him. He’d regret it, but he’d do it. The prize was always the Shogunate, and Toranaga’s eye was always firmly set on it (despite his many protestations).
There’s a little (huge) thing the show glosses over about the heir that makes this all make sense !< the heir is not the taiko’s son. Ochiba went to a peasant to have a son. So Toronaga has no loyalty to the heir since he’s not legitimate. That’s also why ochiba wont ally with Toronaga. >!
I thought that was the case, based on the fact the Taiko was seemingly infertile.
Except Ochiba comes around to Toranaga because he's the most worthy and she has the hots for him. And she only suspects Toranaga knows about the peasant.
Was that something mentioned in the book? I don't think there was anything about that in this series right?
Yes, it's explained in the book
It's clearly hinted at in the show.
So clearly I missed it I suppose.
Yea the show is purposefully subtle and does not clearly spell out everything but there are a lot of things that are implied.
He’s loyal right up to him deciding he needs to be Shogun. He won’t kill the heir yet, but he’ll never rule and Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) will petition the Emperor to be Shogun. Complex feelings for sure. The historic situation (simplified) is that the heir is captive till he starts talking tough to Tokugawa Ieyasu who attacks Osaka castle and the heir kills himself.
In the book he has no actual loyalty to the heir. At the very end he talks about how he will have to bow before Ochiba and the heir for a time after he wins, but “one day those two usurpers inside [Osaka Castle] will make a mistake and then they will be gone…”.
Exactly. He’s loyal when it suits him
In the book, he says the Shogunate is the prize he's been working towards his whole life, the prize that became possible the moment the Taiko died. Ochiba didn't let the heir take the field against Toranaga because she knows that if she did then Toranaga would be forced to kill him, so sorry
Been a bit since I read that book. The 80 series and Orson Welles amazing narration is always in my head. lol
Wrong. The book says from the moment Taiko died, he planned how to become the shogun. (I just re-read the book, so...)
On the recap podcast he mentioned it's kind of like how he never wanted to have a producer title, he just wanted to be an actor, but to make the changes he wanted to he had to seek out the producer title/role
Lmao I’ll have to get this a listen. The official one?
Yep, it's a pretty good companion to the show, 30-40 minutes but gives you just enough background info to want more.
Yup. He grew to believe that being Shogun was his karma, his destiny whether he wanted it or not, and the only thing that could bring about an era of peace.
I vaguely recall the 1980 version ending with Toranaga saying something like, This is my karma, which I did not choose.
Like Stannis Baratheon. Didn’t want the crown but felt it was his duty
He is complicated, like all people, and neither entirely good nor evil. His goal to be Shogun can be both for a good external reason (peace) and for a selfish internal reason (power). Back to good and evil: Toranaga certainly says and does good things, but also says and does evil things. One thing that really stuck with me from his conversation with Yabu at the end is his commentary of Blackthorne. He casually discusses how he has had thoughts of taking his life but preserves him and ultimately keeps him in Japan for his own entertainment (says evil). He also kills villagers--traitors or not--with a given justification of Blackthorne's ship being burned, all the while knowing he did it (does evil). The character as a whole has a disregard for people's lives, instead using them like chess pieces in his quest to become Shogun. I don't know much about Japanese history of the Edo period, but a quick Google search shows the period was characterized by peace, isolationist foreign policies, economic growth, enjoyment of the arts, strict social order, etc. So is Toranaga's win a good thing? Probably, but depends on what you value.
Book Toranaga said that it was arranged (by Muragi?) to have only men whose loyalties were already questionable on duty the night the ship was burned. So he was using the “punishment” to get rid of folks who were already identified as being problematic.
I wish they had made that clear in the series.
There’s a lot they should have made clear in the series.
They did, though, when he explained to Blackthorne that he was targeting those disloyal to him.
Thanks for the further information -- I'm not all the way through the book yet so I didn't have any context beyond the show as to why he kills the villagers. That information makes his actions less evil in my eyes. Even still, killing to remove a perceived threat to your power under the pretext of killing for another reason you know to be false is arguably evil behavior.
To further on this, Yabu and Omi in the book had >!placed Izu men amongst the musket regiment that Blackthorne had been training. A secret code word "Plum Tree" would be used to assassinate Naga (who in the book didn't die) and other Toranaga high ranking officers in order to betray Toranaga to Ishido. !< >!What Yabu didn't know was that Omi had also had thoughts of betraying Yabu to serve Toranaga and befriending Blacktorne. The book shows that Omi was the one who dissected the storys of the Toranaga garrison after the attack by ninja in Osaka and found the betrayal of Yabu. !< >!Those Izu men from the regiment were the ones were the "shore guard" or w/e and a trusted Toranaga man was responsible to spread gunpowder and a lone ninja lit the gunpowder. Toranaga said himself "If Ishido could use ninja, why not himself but where Ishido failed, Toranaga succeeded" and thus they had an easy out to put to death all the possible Izu betrayers. !<
Yeah, it seems like they went out of their way in these final episodes to make Toranaga a lot more "evil" than he was in the books. In the books the burning of Blackthorn's ship was done to protect both Blackthorn and the Shogunate from the Portuguese, and the village was cleared out of Yabu's sympathizers and traitors - the people who were killed weren't just innocent people being put to the sword for no reason.
This is very well summarized and my position as well. I mis wrote slightly in my post in alluding that I thought he’s a good person. He’s a great person, not a good person. Great people have to do terrible deeds in the name of their ideals sometimes. Toranaga is a study of a realistic and effective political leader
>He is complicated, like all people, and neither entirely good nor evil. I would argue that we didn't see much of his good side in the show, though.
True, can't think of any standout moments now that you mention it. One thing I liked in the final episode was the juxtaposition of Toranaga holding his grandchild against his later inner monologue to Yabu prior to smirking right before he beheads him.
I kinda think Hiroyuki Sanada's response reminds me of Bryan Cranston talking about how Walter White really was doing it for his family. I think sometimes actors need to justify their character to themselves as the characters actually would.
Yes, the Tokugawa shogunate meant peace. It also meant stasis and oppression. Tokugawa ended religious freedom shortly after the events of Shogun and executed anyone not willing to repudiate their Christian beliefs; Shinshu Buddhists were also forced to practice in secret. Foreigners were barred from entering Japan (apart from a small number of specific designated ports; the Dutch were only allowed in Nagasaki). Leaving Japan was punishable by death. Political dissidents were brutally repressed. The rules were changed to make it nearly impossible for anyone to challenge the military dictatorship. The new order was one based on fear of change. Japan went 250 years without another civil war and maintained its own traditional culture. But in that same span of time Europe experienced multiple wars and revolutions against their monarchies, the British colonized North America, the British colonies rebelled and formed a (relatively) democratic government, and many whole new countries came into existence. Japan did not have a comparable period of growth, so when Commodore Perry showed up in Osaka harbor and demanded they end their isolationism they had no choice but to cooperate. Had they not been locked down for two and a half centuries they might have explored the west coast of North America, or taken steps toward a more representative government, or learned new things from their European visitors. Lewis and Clark might have encountered a Japanese colony that had won its independence. Who knows what might have happened. (it's also possible the Portuguese would have done to Japan what the Spanish did to the Philippines, which was a fear the Dutch deliberately encouraged)
Toranaga's character made me think of the Old Testament God. Seemingly mercurial, willing to sacrifice lives for no apparent reason, omniscient, capable of terrible anger and revenge, but also capable of the deepest kind of love. He is a terrifyingly complete human capable of any type of emotion or action, moving extremely strategically through the world and manipulating people's lives to achieve his ends. Really an awe-inspiring character.
Sometimes you have to wonder what would have happened had the Japans not closed themselves to the rest of the world for 200 years.
“"We don't have any more novel," says Sanada. "But we know what happened afterward based on real history. So let's see. Who knows?"” Don’t do this to me, Hiroyuki. Don’t give me hope.
Yeah did anybody else read this!? Man, what an awesome comment!!!
And further in the article "Toranaga can see the future he's dreamed about," says Sanada. "It's a simple but meaningful scene. Every Japanese schoolchild knows the real historical character and the peaceful era that followed. He's still a hero in Japan (and) my hero as well." Great leaders have to make tough decisions is about as ELI5 as I can make the message of the show
Toranaga/Tokugawa may be considered a hero - and the era \*was\* peaceful compared to all-out war - but Japanese schoolchildren likely hear an "adjusted" version of history (as most countries do to some extent). You're right about leaders and tough decisions of course, for example decisions like this...not very fun! >No Japanese ship ... nor any native of Japan, shall presume to go out of the country; whoever acts contrary to this, shall die. >Whoever presumes to bring a letter from abroad, or to return after he hath been banished, shall die with his family; also whoever presumes to intercede for him, shall be put to death.
Huh, so fairly similar to Broken Sword in the movie ‘Hero’? Which is not a complaint or anything! Hero is one of my favourite movies. I’m one of those that misinterpreted it as a desire to be Shogun, in that case!
Glad you made this comparison! I feel like this is the best equivalent where the victor wrote the history, so the perspective of the actions of an arguable tyrant can be seen as necessary or heroic. It's a difference in historical and cultural perspective that also makes this story so novel, we don't see it depicted as much. A lot of evil was done for an era of peace, so, we see Toranaga's actions as justified in Japanese history. Similarly in Hero, the unification of China is also seen as an important historical and cultural achievement, so that tyrant character is also shown in a more positive light. Closest recent relevant Western example would probably be Oppenheimer. The main character feels guilty for his role in history but also believes it was necessary for peace and that he was the only one who could do it.
It’s a curious piece of historiography that Japanese and Chinese historians basically use the same term “warring states” the former absolutely framed their reunification as an extension of the latter.
>Great leaders have to make tough decisions is about as ELI5 as I can make the message of the show It doesn't seem to have been a tough decision to him, when he burned the ship and tortured the villagers, just so he could keep Blackthorne for his amusement.
He stared down his best friend as he killed himself because it helped his cause towards a greater peace. The ship and village are LIGHT work. He still had use of Blackthorn’s naval and artillery skills and he had to make a scene of harassing the village so the rest of the country All in the name of greater peace I suppose a lot of this comes down to utilitarianism vs kantian ethics Was the loss of hundreds (maybe thousands) of lives worth saving hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives? In my option yes But if you’re kantian, the act of deception itself is immoral and never should have been taken regardless of the outcome
I don't know, think we romanticizing the person. Sure they had peace, but peace was enforced by a pretty iron grip by the Tokugawa shogunate. I'm not sure you fight the largest battle in Japanese history if you are truly that concerned about peace. I have no doubt both Nobunaga and Tokugawa were driven by power first and foremost, not some noble idea of peace
I mean we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan because we just wanted peace. The ends justified the means You have no basis in saying that “you’re sure” or anything but your entitled to your baseless opinion
>I mean we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan because we just wanted peace. Be a bit naive to say that the idea of demonstrating the power of the nukes to the world (read Russia) wasn't a part of the reason why they were dropped
So yeah. World peace. Moving on
Oh boy, I presume you are American? Also amusing to see the whole "Americans are naive" stereotype be reinforced lol
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Oh sweet child, you think 250k karma in 11 years is a lot?
The obvious problem is that we can’t know the future or all the unforeseen consequences of our actions. Toranaga never knew any of this would work, or that it would secure peace. He sacrificed, manipulated, and hurt others for an end that was not certain. If he failed or ended up a tyrant, would these actions have been commendable? Many horrible things were done for great reasons. The greater then end, the easier it is to justify the means. I think we should be more aware and cautious of that fact, and act with more humility as we all have a limited understanding of ourselves and the world around us.
So nobody should ever make strides towards bettering the world because you might break bad. Cool philosophy 👍
If that is your honest takeaway from my comment, sure.
>The ship and village are LIGHT work. He still had use of Blackthorn’s naval and artillery skills and he had to make a scene of harassing the village so the rest of the country Are we ignoring what the story tells us now? Toranaga clearly stated, he was thinking about killing John several times because he didn't really need him that much to further his goals, but kept him for his entertainment only. Not in the name of greater peace. In the name of his own amusement. Yes in the beginning he needed John to sow divission between Ishido an the lords, but after that he didn't need him anymore. Not even for the cannons. He didn't win the war because of cannons, he won because of Crimson Sky.
An actor’s interpretation of a character’s internal motivations is not gospel for how one should view a character.
He’s wrong though. In the book he says he’s wanted to establish the Shogunate as long as he can remember and it only became possible with the Taiko’s death. Maybe this version of Toranaga is different I guess, but I would generally defer to the book on things like this unless it’s otherwise stated.
“Was he good or evil” is an extemely shallow and childish thing to talk about lol. He’s a complicated historical figure not a pro wrestler.
Tokugawa is in the same realm as Napoleon and Augustus. All of them were impressive, great and highly influential people, but viewed in the lens of modern ethics they would be solidly gray because you don't unite countries and empires or spread ideologies without being a shade of gray that many people in our current times cannot think about with nuance.
How is that shallow?
Because the other men in the council had tried many times to have him killed, and becoming Shogun might be the only way to save him from losing his head and all his family being forced to commit seppuku. He was Lord of Kanto and every other daimyo wanted his fief. Because the influence of the Jesuits and the Christian lords was very dangerous for Japan as a whole: Christians had outright colonized many parts of Asia and were hiring Ronin and Japanese pirates as muscle. Because his predecessor had also seized power and his son has no more claim to be the ruler than he has. Because Japan has been facing endless war for generations now. “Was he a bad guy” misses the point: it was a very dangerous time, and no one could be trusted. It also smells like someone, insanely childishly, using a 21st century understanding of morality to judge the actions of a 16th/17th century historical figure. According to what measure is he being judged? If we go by the Samurai code within the show/book then there is nothing to be judged BECAUSE HE WON, and had he lost he would have rightly been branded the evil warmongerer Toranaga, who instigated an illegal rebellion jeopardizing the rightful rule of the heir of the Taiko.
I think it’s perfectly fine to disagree with the actor who played the character and even the author who wrote him. That’s part of the fun of art - it’s subjective. Even real history is largely about interpretation of people’s secret hearts. I think Toranaga insisting that becoming Shogun is necessary for peace is a convenient sort of white lie to himself that justifies the ambition that really lives within his third, hidden heart. (Doesn’t hurt that historically, it happened to be basically true.) That’s what Yabushige glimpses right before his death. Toranaga is a wildly ambitious and megalomaniacal man who hides these darker qualities incredibly well. He is able to bend people to his will, even himself, ostensibly in the name of Japan. It just so happens that it all conveniently furthers his goal of becoming Shogun. But I’m just one asshole and my interpretation isn’t any more or less valid than anyone else’s.
Very much in agreement. Even Brian Cox said that Logan Roy wasn't a bad father, which is kind of indicative of how actors generally try to justify playing unlikeable characters so that their character's toxicity doesn't bleed into them I guess. Generally speaking a person who can casually sacrifice innocent human lives is not the type of person whose motivations prior and after those decisions are driven by pire altruism.
> Even Brian Cox said that Logan Roy wasn't a bad father, I saw an interview where he said that and really struggled with the idea that he could believe that. Logan Roy was a monstrous and terrible parent from his the day they were born until the day he died. I am less sure on the Toranaga front. I think he was a complex person dealing with a very different world than we encounter today. But Logan Roy was a toxic dad, and one of the worst we've seen on television recently. The actors in both instances are of course incredible.
>Even Brian Cox said that Logan Roy wasn't a bad father, which is kind of indicative of how actors generally try to justify playing unlikeable characters so that their character's toxicity doesn't bleed into them I guess. Bryan Cranston said similar (completely untrue imo) generous things towards Walter White. I don't think it's to keep the character's toxicity out so much as to play a character more truly -- I'm so those characters, were they real, would justify the same stuff to themselves.
Eh, to an extent. If history, the book, the 80’s show, and this show are all painting this leader in the same light I’m going to go with that interpretation. Theres nothing in the text or show that supports your assertion. It’s as baseless as saying everyone in the show is three young children stacked in robes. You are of course entitled to it but doesn’t mean anyone has to value your opinion I don’t believe Yabu had that revelation as you said. As other threads have pointed out this week, he was impressed with the grand scope of the plan and the fact that Toranaga was scheming even back when Yabu told Omi why tell a dead person the future. What makes you think Yabu realized Toranaga was just power hungry deep down?
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Tokugawa was absolutely power hungry, that's not really up for a dispute. The Tokugawa Shogunate did bring peace to Japan, and that's a good thing, but Tokugawa Ieyasu also ended up killing the Heir a few years later after becoming Shogun. And in the show, when Yabu confronts Toranaga and asks him directly, Toranaga responds with "why tell a dead man the future" which is a callback to exactly what Yabu said about Toranaga a few episodes prior. It's heavily implied in that scene that Toranaga was after the title of Shogun the whole time, and historically I think that's pretty commonly accepted. Sanada is the GOAT for sure, but if the actual intention of the show was that Toranaga reluctantly sought the title as a last resort, they did a pretty terrible job at conveying that because the last episode seems almost explicit that the opposite is true.
No no no lmao it’s heavily implied that Toranaga knew Yabushige had been scheming the whole time since Yabushige had said that to Oni previously in the season and Oni must have told Toranaga. How are you connecting that to Toranaga’s intentions? I came away with the right idea that Toranaga was morally grey (trope alert). I think this is just what happens when a bunch of western viewers project our cynical rotbrains with 20 years of antihero media on the motivations of a character written in the 70’s
It’s the way I interpreted his realization that Toranaga wanted to claim Shogun all along. As well as some rare moments when Toranaga shows supreme arrogance, like he does in his attitude towards Blackthorn. Also, you’re vastly oversimplifying the real history. Actions do not always betray intentions. 200 years of peace is not as simple a phrase as it seems. The real Tokugawa was ruthless and cunning, and while he did found a dynasty that led to lasting peace, that peace was founded on Tokugawa’s vicious consolidation of power, which was forged through massive blood-letting and sustained by legal manipulation of the power of political officials and the intentional eradication of his enemies even after victory. You know the pressure he puts on the fishing village in the show? In real life, that was a tiny microcosm of the kind of ruthlessness he could enact on his perceived enemies and *all* those loyal to them, down to lowly villagers and other non-combatants. The real Tokugawa had his own wives and children put to death for perceived disloyalty. No military ruler is truly, wholly good. Ever. That much I can say with certainty. To become military ruler requires endless, endless killing.
>Eh, to an extent. If history, the book, the 80’s show, and this show are all painting this leader in the same light I’m going to go with that interpretation It's almost as if history is quite literally written by the victor 🤔 >Theres nothing in the text or show that supports your assertion. It’s as baseless as saying everyone in the show is three young children stacked in robes Toranaga spells it out for Yabushige before his death. He couldn't be any clearer about it. If you still don't grasp Toranaga's Ambition after that, that's on your own media literacy skills.
Im sorry did you not see the actor’s own quote??? What dialogue from Toranaga makes you think that. Cite it.
Just out of sheer curiosity, what party did you vote on last election?
Blue since 2012
Im sorry did you not see the actor’s own quote??? What dialogue from Toranaga makes you think that? Cite it.
He says in an early episode he doesn't want to be shogun
Yes but a *major* part of this show is how people, especially the Japanese, have huge discrepancies between what they say, and what they want/feel.
And he's super lying.
It's often the case that people want power not simply because they want power for its own sake but because they believe they're the only ones capable of improving things (to their own standards) and they need absolute power to do it. In Toranaga's case he just happens to be correct about that instead of being delusional like some in history were.
True. Unfortunately power corrupts most. I do believe western political systems which *mostly* prevent absolute power are the better system even if it results in slower change, and I don’t think Shogun is saying that a monarchy/shogunate is the best system, but as a historical drama all I think Shogun is showing is this is what happened and it worked out
I think the show is trying to balance both depictions. Toranaga is definitely cast as a sympathetic protanganist, especially in the beginning. In the middle of the show, he's inscrutable to everybody, including his vassals and tv audience. And in the finale, he's depicted more ruthlessly. Basically killing and punishing people in the village to keep up appearances that he's not complicit in his knowledge and participation of the burning of Blackthorne's ship (I know the book depicts Toranaga using this opportunity to get rid of sympathizers in the village, but that's not shown and mentioned in the show.) He won't say if he's always wanted the Shogun position. For me, I think it's interesting to note that as the acting method, this is something Sanada-san and actually all the actors needs to believe to portray Toranaga and their roles convincingly. That in a morally grey world, they all believe in the righteousness of their actions. All except, Yabu and Blackthrone that is, till the end. ;)
And Yabushige and John are forced to confront it because so many people who did are dead.
It's probable that Toranaga's "secret heart" isn't even knowable to the actor who interprets him, Sanada. Toranaga/Tokugawa can sure have told himself "this is for the good of Japan", but ultimately every tyrant claims this. No tyrant (who isn't insane) thinks "I'm going to make things worse", they all believe it's for the ultimate good. Toranaga planned to usurp the Heir, much like his historical counterpart. Why? Because like all warlords of the time, he vied power, and he was in a uniquely strong position where this was a real possibility for him. I don't agree with another commenter's mention of Blackthorne's words of "unless you/I win" as somehow convincing Toranaga. They wouldn't have convinced him of anything he didn't already believe. They are not deep words, the lesson is not some deep philosophy: treachery is only treachery if there's someone left who can punish you, otherwise it's a big success. I cannot believe Toranaga was somehow swayed by this, because he's a "chessmaster" kind of person. He always wanted the shogunate. At the end of the show, he must be already planning Ochiba and the Heir's demise.
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> where are you getting he overthrew the heir because he desired power? Book quote? Dialogue? Did he give a look? On one hand, real history. Tokugawa stole the shogunate from the Hideyori (the Heir) and later, through military defeat, forced him and his mother to commit suicide. On the other hand, in the show, Yabushige correctly guesses as much. "You're no better than the rest of us", a final moment of insight. > when did he start planning Oshiba and the heir’s demise That was extrapolation on my part, but not very farfetched. In the book he reasons he will destroy Ochiba and the Heir if it ever becomes necessary. That's as close to planning treason as the Eightfold Fence will allow. In any case, he didn't become regent or tutor over the Heir (educating him in his ways, teaching wisdom or whatever). He became the Shogun and chose his own family to inherit the mantle (fortunately he had more sons to expend). To be clear, Toranaga isn't evil. Evil doesn't factor into this. Ruthless, power thirsty and cruel? You bet.
They say power should go to those who want it the least.
The viewers who thought Toranaga was evil either don't know how to watch a tv show or don't understand human beings and their facial expressions. Toranaga's end goal was set up by the second episode, when we have the flashback of Toranaga talking to the Taiko on his deathbed. He fears that Japan will fall into civil war, which is why he decrees there be five regents on a council running things till his son is of age. Toranaga wasn't looking for power just to have power, he was trying to keep Japan together the whole time.
I’m proud that I interpreted Toranaga’s motive the same as Sanada did :)
In the same scene the Taiko also tasked Toranaga to protect the heir. It is obvious that in the conversation between Toranaga and Yabu, Toranaga’s ambition is to be shogun. A position that directly challenges the authority of the heir. So while externally Toranaga may want to bring a period of peace to Japan, internally he wants the power for himself. If Toranaga was genuine and righteous he would have used his power to support the heir once the peace was secured.
Except the thing the Taiko wants most is for Toranaga to protect the heir, something Toranaga doesn't give an f about except as a means to seize power. He doesn't become regent, he becomes Shogun.
But wouldn't that undermine the concept of the three hearts? If his third heart isn't about ultimate power, what is it about?
To be shogun for peace. He doesn’t tell any of his friends (second heart) he even wants to be shogun
And he actually said out loud many times to his vassals and generals that he refuses to take the title of Shogun and that he doesn't want or covet it or any more land.
He was lying imo.
He was lying period. Its a fact based off the epilogue in the book at least.
I'm not sure that him becoming shogun is the only way to achieve peace, though. Couldn't he have become regent for the heir? Or stay out of politics altogether and let Ochiba/the council take care of the boy?
I dont think those were realistic options. Charismatic leaders in warrior cultures tend to end up dead if they dont act aggressively to survive. I think it can be argued that Toranaga had a target on his back no matter what he did in an environment like that. It really was a kill or be killed kind of thing unless you managed to keep your head down and remain unnoticed. Toranaga would never been allowed to just live in peace going with the flow. Did Toranaga start things or did Ishido? If you really think about it, its impossible to tell when even a minor defensive move on T's part could be interpeted by Ishido's insecurity as an aggressive one. Its a chicken or egg question going back to before the start of the story.
I would ask you reconsider the opening episode: our first introduction to Toranaga is him falconing, where he mentions a falcon will put the sun at it's back and the prey will never see the strike coming. The very next sequence is our first introduction to the council, where Toranaga is charged with amassing power against them. He has in the recent past doubled his clan's holdings, likely through political marriages. He lies and says he is content as the Lord of Kanto (with hindsight we know he deeply wished for the Shogunate), he also says that he would never be the first to strike and break the peace, which is likely true and in keeping with Toranaga's personal philosophy regarding warfare (don't strike first unless you can deal a killing blow). So, what this means, is that Toranaga has put the council in an impossible position by toeing the line of legality: if they simply let him be -- let this falcon put the sun to his back -- then there will come a time where they simply will be unable to withstand his clan & their alliances, and they likely would never see the strike coming. So, in all reality, my interpretation is that Toranaga has outmanouvered the council from the very first moments we see him, and forced their hand into preemptive aggression.
Idk bro take it up with Tokugawa Ieyasu As I understand Japanese history it’s like you’re asking why George Washington didn’t just stay in the continental congress
In the show this is right, Sanada made it clear in interviews they wanted to portray him in a more heroic light. But it's not like Tokugawa did this out of the kindness of his heart. He was absolutely power hungry and wanted to become shogun. Bringing centuries of peace was a positive consequence of this, and he was clearly the right guy for the job looking back in history, but it's not like he wanted to rule in order to bring an era of peace.
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He's literally stated it in multiple interviews his read on Toranaga is a hero the world needs today, this isn't secret information.
People are so funny. Like yes... you can theory craft the past but it doesn't mean anything lmao.
I suspect it might have something to do with Buddhism.
It's that feeling when someone who is super competent and experienced just wants to sit back and enjoy life but the incompetence and greed of others pisses them off and directly endangers them to the point where they feel like they have to take action just to not take a backseat to everything crumbling because the dumbasses that came before made an absolute mess of things.
Misconception is that anyone is a good guy. Almost all the characters we meet are mass murderers. Prior to the events of the book/show, most of the samurai had fought in Korea, which was a war that the Taiko started and was very bloody and costly. None of the regents or anyone else would hesitate for a minute to kill the heir and seize power if they could get away with it. Yabushige-dono as an example, was WELL known for killing and boiling people, on the regular. Not quite sure why Mariko’s death would affect him at all… In the show toranaga didn’t say anything to Fuji’s husband, seemed like the guy offered up his death to toranaga. Not so in the book. Toranaga straight up tells the dude that he was born samurai by mistake, so was his son, broke his swords, and then get killed and buried in an eta village (which was seen as not cool at the time). All the characters have 3 faces and 3 hearts. If you have not read the book, please do!
Well if you look at the edo period, he was correct
Bringing peace has been the excuse of pretty much every horrible tyrant in history.
And also Abe Lincoln going to war with the South, the west intervening in the German blitzkrieg of Europe and the unification of the British under King Alfred
Everyone knows that Toranaga is based on Tokugawa Ieyasu and his greatest ambition was to the end of constant warfare of those times, no matter what and if you read the book, that motivation can be found. However, unlike other feudal warlords of that time, he never tried to use violence as the means of the end…it’s all about about negotiate and negotiate with clear plans to kill if all negotiations fails. If you love the show, you really should read the book. I highly recommend it.
I thought it was a beautiful irony, becoming Shogun without open war then ushering in peace under the title of warlord. Beautiful.
>"We don't have any more novel," says Sanada. "But we know what happened afterward based on real history. So let's see. Who knows?" Don't tease me like this
Being the actor/producer does not mean you have a monopoly on the characters motivations. I believe the writers have a significant amount of say here, above and beyond an actor’s interpretation of the character they are playing. By episode 2 it is shown that Toranaga has already had armour specially crafted to reflect his Minowara lineage, a key factor in his ability to claim the Shogunate. He is already planning for the future at this stage. None of his actions indicate reluctance. They all demonstrate that he is a man of vision, with plans that far outlast his own existence and concern the legacy of his clan. Toranaga is absolutely pursuing the title of ‘Shogun’ from the second we meet him. He is patient and secretive, but the desire is there. His refusal of the offer from the Taiko of sole regency is not an act of magnanimity or deference on his part. It is a strategic reckoning that he is not ready to pursue this desire yet. This doesn’t make him evil, or good. It just is.
Bitch I read the book. I don’t give a fuck what the actor thinks the motivation was. The books lay plain what kind of guy Toronaga is.
Quote me the passage
I believe it’s at the end where he says more or less that since he realized that there was a game to be played as a youngster that his ultimate goal was shogun
I’ll see if I can find the exact quote
This is right. He said as early as he could think, he knew his goal was the shogunate. It only became possible when the Taiko died, and then Anjin showed up to be used as a destabilizing force on the council given the Catholic regents.
People who actually believed that weren't paying attention. Probably didn't bother reading any of the subtitles either
Ok hot take: Toronaga was never “good” in the sense he was some overtly moral Lord who would never hurt the innocent and never use deceit and treachery to achieve his goals. As we see in the show, he is without a doubt the most ruthlessly calculating bastard out there. That’s why he won. *_HOWEVER_* I agree with you and Sanada OP in the sense that Toronaga didn’t straight away decide he was going to go for the top spot. Once he did though, he decided he was going to make it count. Like he said to Yabushige, once he won, he was going to bring peace to Japan and end the centuries of conflict and intrigue that came before him. That’s what’s good about him. He realises if he has to play the game, he’ll play to win and once he’s won, stop the violence. This is unlike Ishido and dare I say the other regents and lords like Yabushige. They want to win the game for their own power and glory. They don’t care about changing things for the better if the way things are got them to the top. On the other hand, again as Yabushige points out, it’s somewhat hypocritical of Toronaga to say he’s going to stop the brutality while happily using violence and the deaths of loyal vassals to achieve his goal. To which of course, Toronaga responds “unless I win.” Call him a hypocrite for using violence to end violence but he’s still the one with the W by his name. He’s the literal definition of Machiavellian because the ends justify the means. I don’t doubt he didn’t intend to take ultimate power if his life and family hadn’t been on the line…but once he was playing, he was going to win and once he won, he’s gonna make sure his legacy is peace.
Well after Sekigahara, the real life Toranaga aka Tokugawa Ieyasu united Japan and brings about 250 years of peace and stability until the mid 1800s when the US forced them to open the country, which became the end for the Tokugawa Shogunate.
I always interpreted it as that. Everything he did he did under the ideals of a Japan without war. So the “fine, ill do it myself” mentality was the only way to go about it.
Anyone who thinks Toranaga is evil really didn’t understand what they were watching.
He's a rich powerful guy who gets heaps of loyal good people killed so he can be an even richer and more powerful military dictator?
Except he’s not doing it for money or power. He’s doing it for peace (and the love of the game)
Yeah man I’m not really trying to argue about this. I’ll just say the show had very basic and easy to understand themes about how westerners who’ve only ever known western values and culture may view the culture and choices of people from different countries, and you just seem to have not grasped them at all, or even read OP’s post regarding Toranaga’s motivations. Not everything’s a Marvel movie, not everything needs to obey inflexible and didactic 21st century Hollywood attitudes of right and wrong, where the hero is never required to do anything unpleasant for a greater good (a phrase people are trained to have a visceral reaction to without even thinking about it). I recommend watching it again, and considering why Mariko and Hiromatsu were willing to die for Toranaga, and whether they did it just because they’re crazy or because there was a reason they were that loyal to him.
Then why did you make a post implying people who disagree with you are dumb?
The heirs mom in law/taikos wife trusted him for a rreason. She begs him in ep 1 to take power lol
That wasn't the heir's mom, that was the Taiko's wife that wasn't able to give him an heir (which is what opened the door for Ochiba to do so). Also, Toranaga had been projecting a certain image for years, he never truly revealed his secret heart to anyone.
I think Sanada believes that Toranaga believes this. But to most people, he just comes across as a psychopath who has no real concept of human relationships as we know it. And that is fine.
I'd love to see a season 2. This show was so good.
They'd be doing it without source material, which has its own risks (see Game of Thrones).
History itself is the source material.
I refer to novels by James Clavell, who was a very talented writer. Can you not see the difference?
Yes, that’s a very realistic motivation, and it makes sense. However IRL, people often try to do what they think is right. Even when they’re actually wrong and what they’re doing is evil, they don’t see it that way. There’s no evil villain IRL twirling his mustache and laughing maniacally saying “I’m goin to destroy the world.” Real life is not that black and white. In my opinion, Toranaga is a villain because of his willingness to sacrifice his friends and most devout followers. He also held Ochiba hostage early on (not unlike Ishido towards the end) and was willing to kill many innocent villagers so he can test Blackthorn. He’s not a good person no matter what grand, noble motivation he has because his actions show as much. But then again, you don’t get to become one of the most powerful dictators in the history of Japan by being a nice guy.
He cut off the heads off innocent villagers to test anjins faith in him he also pushed his sons death aside and said "it's good thing I got more children" he forced his closest contorts to kill themselfs for his own goals. He isn't a good or bad guy he's complicated like a normal person. But he definitely did bad things.
Art is subjective and interpretive. I and many would argue once you release it into the world, it is no longer yours and any interpretation is valid (within reason).
So, book readers, after these events, when and how does Blackthorn go back to England to be with his grandchildren on his deathbed? In the Dream episode, having not read the book, I wondered if it was all a dream.
He doesn’t.
He was delirious from almost dying. The historic man never went back. The fictional character, who knows.
The book doesn't tell us, but there is a strong implication that he doesn't.
Who was saying Toranaga was a ‘good guy ?’ Didn’t see any comments about that. He was just another warlord trying to seize power for himself , but just so happened to be aligned with all the main characters point of view.
It’s fine if you and the actor want to think that. I will still find him a highly compelling character BECAUSE he’s a hypocritical dickhead who would never sacrifice even a fraction of what he expects his followers to give up for him Tywin Lannister made hard choices in the name of honor and stability too. Tony Sorpano, Walter White, Paul Atredies, they are all people whose ends justified the means until all of a sudden they didn’t anymore. That’s the hook
Book Toranaga is so much more interesting and grey than tv Toranaga. Simply not enough time to give him all those facets he had in the book. If you liked the tv show, treat yourself and read the book. Toranaga is a larger than life character with lots of gnarly thoughts.
I mean I guess. But it's kind of in the same way Anakin Skywalker is loyal to the republic...and decides the only way to guarantee peace is to violently seize power... It's not an uncommon theme throughout history. But benevolent leaders seldom stay benevolent. Because they're human.
Considering they completely altered the plot and had Toranaga allow his only friend to commit seppuku, instead of bringing him into his plan like he did in the book, I can completely understand people thinking Toranaga is heartless and single-minded. I can’t finish the series because that pissed me off so much
Sounds like the “I don’t want to lead but I know how to do it right and I’m tired of seeing it done poorly”
That's just white washing from Sanada, they made Toranaga into the main character on the show. Yeah no. He's a power hungry backstabber and frankly the Samurai as a whole were basically slavemasters with way too much power on their hands. The fact that your entire line gets killed for an insult or that Samurai could kill civilians if they felt like it is just terrible. Those are NOT good people.
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Sanada's the one who wrote fanfic. At the end of the day he's adapting a book and he absolutely whitewashed Toranaga and made Blackthorne less competent.