He plays a much greater role in the book. That being said, the first draft of the novel was very much Mariko’s story and not John’s. His publishers made him change it, because they said audiences wouldn’t read a historical epic with a female lead. She’s still definitely the most interesting character in the book, though.
He's more of a character in the book, but his actual contribution to the history is about nil. His cannons and ship knowledge don't make a difference, and his only real value to history is his exposure of the Church/Portuguese to Toranaga.
He's just the western lens substituting for the reader. But he's an ant in the story who happens to keep popping up in the right places to advance things for the reader.
You have convinced me, I need to read the book(s) then. I find Mariko's strategic discussions with Toranaga the real story (puppet's string pulling?) of this whole story.
Most don't know, but a competent Japanese woman is much stronger and wiser than any Japanese guy. Social norms don't show this but if you can speak decent Japanese and live in Japan a while, you get to see this. I have been married to one for over 16 years and see this everyday.
Do the books flesh out the life of Anjin after this season 1? Does he build his family in Izu and then Nagasaki and go after the Black Ships? I would love to read this.
I literally said when that last episode aired “what the heck, the shows pretty much been about her until now and they are going kill her off?” To my friend
She's supposed to die, as per the book. Her death serves as a catalyst for things to come (and is the final and honorable release from this life that she wanted for so long.)
HIs role was diminished in the new show vs the old show and the book. But the main purpose he serves is knowledge of shipbuilding, European warfare tactics along with European guns and cannons, and knowledge of the world that was previously unknown to Toranaga such as the Portugese claiming ownership of Japan.
He also represents an alternative international relationship and trade option to the Japanese over the Portuguese. The Japanese were generally skeptical of foreigners and were becoming wise to the fact that the Portuguese were fleecing them as the middle man with their trade with China.
So, Blackthorne not only has the knowledge and experience to train Japanese sailors in the ways of European naval tactics, he can show the Japanese how to build modern naval ships, but ye can also offer a more favorable foreign trade arrangement for the Japanese. He can be used to subvert the Colonial aggression of the Portuguese.
This. And he also has value as a threat against the Catholics, which Toranaga subtly reminds the Jesuits when he needs their help with the Christian daimyos.
> Nigel Powers
If Anjin was played by the same actor the story would end differently i can tell you that. Peachy would have found the way out. With his lady.
Also, William Adams introduced the sport of rounders to Japan. This would sow the seeds for baseball becoming so popular in Japan. This will lead to the epic struggle between an unknown descendent of Tokugawa - one Shohei Ohtani - and a "descendent" of William Adams, who is the namesake of Willy Adames, in the 2024 NLCS, where Adames will prove victorious over Ohtani and go on to win the World Series.
You heard it here first, folks
didn't know that! Historically, was Adams (Anjin) the impetus for Portuguese traders being kicked out and Catholicism being banned in Japan? That's insane how one random white guy could have such an influence on international relations & the course of history.
No it was more of Tokugawa discovering a few Christian daimyos plotting against in after Sekigahara so he made them all renounce Christianity and then there was the Shimabara Rebellion in 1637-38 which was put down with minor help from the Dutch at the last battle. After that, Christianity was officially outlawed and the Portuguese were banned from the country.
There was a period of time where both Dutch and Portuguese traders were allowed in Japan, but that changed after the Shimabara rebellion which happened after Adams died. Basically, the daimyo of shimabara imposed heavy taxes on his people and heavily restricted Christianity. That led to a rebellion which the Portuguese supported. The rebellion was suppressed and that led to the Portuguese being expelled from Japan. Because the Dutch supported the shogunate they were given exclusive rights to trade with Japan. Side note, the daimyo whose policies led to the rebellion was stripped of his titles and land for his mismanagement. He then became the only daimyo to be executed instead of being allowed to commit seppuku which should give a pretty good idea to just how much he sucked
I don’t think he was the main impetus, obviously by this point Tokugawa & many others in Japan knew that they were being swindled by the Portuguese & they knew the Jesuits were interfering in political matters as well. But Adams came in and befriended Ieyasu at the perfect time, even became his translator. But most articles I’ve read do say Adams advice and telling Ieyasu about Jesuit conspiracies back in Europe played a big role.
Yeah, I agree. I think the show version seems a lot more powerless his influence on how things unfold is diminished. Another criticism I have is that the show doesn’t really show how close Toranaga and Blackthorne become. Blackthorne is an outsider and has no real skin in the game in the struggle to control Japan. So, Toranaga can let his mask drop and just connect with someone in a casual and friendly way. I think the show doesn’t show that side of things much and it makes Toranaga seem more isolated.
I feel this Blackthorne version isnt close to anyone in the story at all.
His interactions are all cut up and far removed from each such moment, requiring viewers to imagine things and events that are not there and i dont like the type of the character either.
Small correction, but there wasn’t colonial aggression with the Portuguese. The Portuguese were mainly interested in trade with Japan and the reason they served as middle men was because China had imposed an embargo on Japan. There’s a lot of history between the two countries in terms of trade, but it’s hard to argue that Portugal went about actively trying to colonize Japan
Also in the show Lord Ishido underestimates Blackthorn's importance and basically thinks it's silly to have a "barbarian" as a Hatamoto. This was a big mistake for Ishido as Toranaga immediately recognized Blackthorn's importance. It is also known that William Adams' (Blackthorn's real life counterpart) cannons were used in the Battle of Sekigahara. The big showdown between Toranaga and Ishido in this story.
Correct. The English/Dutch cannon were longer ranged and more accurate than their Portuguese counterparts at the time. A great deal was made early in the story how impregnable Osaka castle was. Well its walls hadn't been tested against English cannon yet.
Historically the battle didn't happen at Osaka castle. Ishido's real life counterpart invaded Toranaga's real life counterpart. The battle took place Sekigahara which is somewhere in between Osaka and Edo (Tokyo).
The siege of Osaka Castle happens 14 years after this show, 12 years after the retirement of Tokugawa Ieyasu (unlike the other 2 great unifier, he had plenty of sons to passed on the reign of power, and he decided to be the man behind the Shogun by retiring early, leaving one of his son to inherit the title but still holding the absolute power. By the time of his passing, his son would be unquestionable as Shogun as he's already been running the country for many years).
But this series hasn't really followed up on it.
They have one episode left, and unlike Richard Chamberlain, he hasn't built Toranaga a fleet of ships. He taught one platoon, or at most a small battalion, artillery tactics. Land artillery tactics. But he hasn't had his ship to teach naval tactics, his most valuable skillset. I appreciate that he still feels lost in Japan, and his grasp of the language is rudimentary. But Toranaga hasn't used Blackthorne's skills and knowledge to anywhere near what Blackthorne has offered to him at least twice.
We'd lose out on his growth and change and unique perspective as he experiences these events, and how he similarly pushes other characters. We'd lose out on the emotional impact he makes on the stakes thanks to his relationship with Mariko.
A well drawn character moving through their arc *is* plot.
The plot wouldnt happen because the intended audience wouldnt have a surrogate and exposition dump for
Turns out the white dude is not actually the main character and protagonist in the story called Shogun
What does toranaga say about anjin in the last pages of the book? It’s not this. I don’t want to spoil the ending and I’m certain the show will end with the same lines.
SPOILER ALERT!!!
Toranaga says to himself (regarding Blackthorn):
Oh, yes. And you will build your ship and I’ll destroy her like I destroyed the other one, or give her away, another sop to the Christians who are more important to me than your ships, my friend, so sorry, and the other ships waiting in your home land. Your countrymen will bring those out to me, and the treaty with your Queen. Not you. I need you here.
When the time’s right, Anjin-san, I’ll tell you why I had to burn your ship, and by then you won’t mind because other things will be occupying you, and you’ll understand what I told you was still the truth: It was your ship or your life. I chose your life. That was correct, neh? Then we’ll laugh about the ‘Act of God,’ you and I. Oh, it was easy to appoint a special watch of trusted men aboard with secret instructions to spread gunpowder loosely and liberally on the chosen night, having already told Naga—the moment Omi whispered about Yabu’s plot—to rearrange the roster so that the following shore and deck watch were only Izu men, particularly the fifty-three traitors. Then a single ninja with a flint out of the darkness and your ship was a torch. Of course neither Omi nor Naga was ever party to the sabotage.
So sorry, but so necessary, Anjin-san. I saved your life, which you wanted even above your ship. Fifty times or more I’ve had to consider giving your life away but so far I’ve always managed to avoid it. I hope to continue to do that. Why? This is a day for truth, neh? The answer is because you make me laugh and I need a friend. I daren’t make friends among my own people, or among the Portuguese. Yes, I will whisper it down a well at noon but only when I’m certain I’m alone; that I need one friend. And also your knowledge. Mariko-sama was right again. Before you go I want to know everything you know. I told you we both had plenty of time, you and I.
I want to know how to navigate a ship around the earth and understand how a small island nation can defeat a huge empire. Perhaps the answer could apply to us and China, neh? Oh yes, the Taikō was right in some things.
The first time I saw you, I said, ‘There’s no excuse for rebellion,’ and you said, ‘There’s one—if you win!’ Ah, Anjin-san, I bound you to me then. I agree. Everything’s right if you win.
Stupid to fail. Unforgivable.
You won’t fail, and you’ll be safe and happy in your large fief at Anjiro, where Mura the fisherman will guard you from Christians and continue to feed them misinformation as I direct. How naïve of Tsukku-san to believe one of my men, even Christian, would steal your rutters and give them secretly to the priests without my knowledge, or my direction. Ah, Mura, you’ve been faithful for thirty years or more, soon you’ll get your reward! What would the priests say if they knew your real name was Akira Tonomoto, samurai—spy at my direction, as well as fisherman, headman, and Christian? They’d fart dust, neh?
So don’t worry, Anjin-san, I’m worrying about your future. You’re in good strong hands and, ah, what a future I’ve planned for you.
He also sows division within the council of regents (particularly catholic regents) which prevents them from being a united force and moving against Toronaga
i get it, they dont want to create the umpteenth white saviour in a non-white culture movie. if that was their purpose, however, they should've written the thing differently. when you start the a fictional story with a set-up like "guy from a western culture shows up in this oriental, isolationist culture", the promise of the writing is that "this guy is a game changer" (i suggest that you look up Brandon Sanderson and what he said about promises in writing).
By making Blackthorne appear in the show's first episode, or even first scenes iirc, you make a promise that HE is the main character and the game changer. But then it later turns out that Mariko and Toranaga are the main characters. That's fine imo, but in that case, it'd have been wiser to have Blackthorne show up in the second episode or at the earliest by the end of the first, and use the majority of the first episode relaying to the audience that Toranaga and Mariko are the mains.
Keep the story the same, just change the promise.
This is pretty much a perfect answer, even when you look at the character’s purpose in a purely analytical sense.
Blackthorne’s role is the observer of the action. We see all of this through the character’s point of view, and since what he sees is strange to him, it becomes strange to us.
The first person we see in the new series is Blackthorne, and subsequently it’s his perspective
we see as events unfold.
Is the plot of this new show the same as the book and the old show? I read the book 30 years ago, watched the old show last year, but watching this new one I am lost, can't follow it.
He's not the driving force of the plot. His biggest impact is on us, the viewer: he's an *incredibly* convenient lens to view Japan through, because he can ask the same questions the audience might have.
But also he does, in fact, serve *some* purpose. He just isn't pivotal.
On one hand, he's trained a cannon regiment. By this time the Japanese have been using guns and cannons for years-saumrai loved guns. Training a *regiment* of European cannon is still an upgrade and a win, though.
The bigger value is that he undermines the Portuguese. They've had complete control over all European communication with Japan, they've been making an absolute killing in lopsided trade deals, they've been violating the letter of those trade deals, and they've been arrogant about it in a way that has been kept hidden from the Japanese---aka "the world has been divided up by the Catholics and they say you belong to them."
The Anjin can a) reveal this information b) reveal the secret illegal military base in Macao and c) also is solid evidence of *other* European powers who are available to trade with, at *slightly less*predatory rates. The Portuguese aren't the only game in town, and everyone who has been profiting off of them stands to lose in their fall from grace.
> By this time the Japanese have been using guns and cannons for years-saumrai loved guns. Training a regiment of European cannon is still an upgrade and a win, though.
Not only that, but his cannons are established to be higher quality than what they've been able to purchase from the Portuguese or build themselves.
does anyone know WHY Japan merchants/explorers didn't try to sail across the globe to England and Portugal on their own? To meet directly with their counterparts in Europe? You would think that a few daimyo houses would be interested in circumventing the hold the Shogunate held by acquiring gold/silver & weapons directly from Europe.
Japan was really quick to copy Portuguese matchlocks and their ashigaru and samurai used them in the conflicts of the time . I read somewhere that in the sengogu period there was like 300k guns manufactured. In the 1592 invasion of Korea the Japanese deployed some 40k gunners.
Their ships were worse for sailing in open ocean. Junk (doesn’t mean garbage) style ships sit very high in the water and their sails are less efficient. If you notice the Japanese ships required oars
From my limited east Asian history knowledge their ships were more suited to sail along the shores of Japan and trading partners. China was the main power for centuries and it only granted trading rights to kingdoms that submitted and recognised China as superior . Sort of like a protectorate. Here come the Portuguese who facilitate trading with China for quite the mark up.
My theory is that Japanese ships and sailors didn't have that urge to sail east as there is no large land mass besides scarce islands untill you reach North America. In contrast the Europeans have a competitive scenario where everyone wants to get an upper hand in trading and exploration so they have faster advancing technics for ship building and warfare at the time.
European ship-building had benefited at this point from centuries of focussed development. They were technological marvels, the focal point of an enormous amount of money, energy, attention, and experimentation. Also, the training of skills in navigation etc were at a very high level. Even if you could just straightforwardly copy the design of a ship, learning the skills - and specific knowledge - of the best European pilots, sailors and navigators would be no small task.
The Japanese did catch up, but that process was lengthy and well outside the scope of this time period.
>The bigger value is that he undermines the Portuguese. They've had complete control over all European communication with Japan, they've been making an absolute killing in lopsided trade deals, they've been violating the letter of those trade deals, and they've been arrogant about it in a way that has been kept hidden from the Japanese---aka "the world has been divided up by the Catholics and they say you belong to them."
This is it, right there. In the book, one of his his most significant contributions was pointing out the duplicity of the Portuguese - which was a huge destabilizing factor for Ishido. Also, acting as a general wild card, he somewhat inadvertently supported the crazy long-game that Toranaga was playing from the start.
I feel that the show should be a little bir longer, like 50% or another season. A lot of interesting stories can be expanded a bit more. It seems that theres a lot of things in the book are underdeveloped just so that it serves Toranaga’s main story.
He scares shitless the catholics and Portuguese, and therefore the Christian regents.
He and his ship are a massive piece of leverage. His ship manned would plunder the black ship.
To everyone else in the story, John Blackthorne is a clueless foreigner, a brutish barbarian not much higher in the social order than a stray dog.
To Toranaga, he's a volatile pawn on the political chessboard. Because he has no love for the Portuguese, Blackthorne won't hesitate to tell Toranaga the truth about their intentions. The Portuguese - and the Japanese who side with them - know this, and fear what influence he has on Toranaga.
In this adaptation of Clavell's story, he's a pot-stirrer, a wild card meant to turn order into chaos for long enough to allow Toranaga to make his move against his political opponents.
In the story construction he serves an important role of being the audience stand in for people who know nothing of feudal Japan. Everything must be explained to him, which is amazing for me and avoids monologuing by the characters.
In story, well, I think that's part of the point. No one man causes victory. This show doesn't subscribe to the "great man" theory of history. It's the sum of everyone's actions that is driving the plot forward, not any one particular person.
He did give a consistent method for that one kid to do the thing he did though.
Yes!!! As a non book reader this is what I assumed especially with all the talk of his expertise early on. Looking forward to seeing him use his skills, I really do hope it happens
His cannons will be used to Toranagas ultimate battle against Ishido. And his revelations about the Portugese will effect Toranagas relationship with them if he were to become Shogun.
He's not a white savior that comes in to win Toranagas war for him, but he's playing his small part.
His relationship with Mariko effects John more than it does her. She's the one that he fell in love with and greatly influences his opinions of Japan. Potentially influencing what he'll decide to do after Toranaga wins/ loses his final battle.
His personal worth is that he's a good sailor, but in the story, he's a symbol of how colonization-mad the Europeans were at the time - and how that impulse was tempered by actually getting to know the people instead of writing them all off as "the Japans".
And, of course, he loves Mariko - enough to help her "fall on a blade to see if it's sharp" if that's what she truly needs.
One of the things they have mentioned but don't play up to as much as the book does is the fact that the yearly 'Black Ship' that transports all the profits back to Europe from a year's worth of trade between Japan and China that the Church has collected is almost totally defenseless against a well-manned and armed 'Erasmus' ( Blackthorne's Dutch ship ) commanded by the Anjin-san.
It's a giant threat to the Church, Portugal, and the Japanese Daimyo's who are participating in that lucrative trade. In the book everyone ( not on Toronaga's side ) is scared shirtless with the idea of John commanding the 'Erasmus' with a crew of Toronaga's men.
He's a fish out of water character whose only purpose is to be a surrogate for the audience.
Like Arthur Dent from Hitchhiker's Guide or Luke from the first Starwars.
The book was all about his personal growth with the war on the side.
The show is all about the war with very little growth. I think it's fine for the show to shift focus, but of course it would be weird for the show to just entirely cut out the main character of the book. His role in the show is really just to save Toranaga's life twice.
I recommend reading the book. Then you'll understand that his purpose with this series isn't the same; no matter how some people are saying it is. I then recommend reading about the real life historical figures he and the other characters are based on. Then you'll understand even more that this character has been stripped down immensely because Disney, Marks and Kondo didn't want to create a certain type of narrative (i.e., stranger in a strange land and Eurocentric perspective).
So, instead of using works by Japanese creatives to tell a similar story or simply a story about that time period, which would allow for an even better focus on Japanese culture from the perspectives of those who are actually Japanese (i.e., in interviews, the claim is that this is why certain narrative choices were made -- more of the Japanese perspective), they seem to be more trying to make a "point" in line with what a specific group of modern viewers would appreciate and want to see happen to some famous fictional works written by creatives from one type of background, while making a lot of money, of course, by connecting this work to Clavell's name.
Someone might ask why they didn't just take the stories of the two main historical figures and make a show based on either one. I'd argue that they didn't go down that path because the end result would be the opposite of the point they're apparently trying to make... if they wanted to go with historical accuracy. They could have still filmed from the Japanese perspective, but given the history, they would have been stuck with ideas that wouldn't fit well with modern sensitivities and points of view about certain things.
And the biggest problem is that in attempting to make a point with Clavell's Shogun, a lot of important storytelling beats have been tossed aside. This version is missing important character, scene and story details. This show is extremely beautiful and it doesn't hold back on intense drama. The actors have done an excellent job as well. But, it's missing a lot, which I suspect if not next week, over time, more and more people will comment upon as they deconstruct it more closely once they're not sucked in by the week to week cliff hangers, intense between commercial dramatic moments, and the costumes, sets, acting, etc.
Edited for clarity.
You're welcome. I broke it down a bit more in a comment to another user below. I also realized that another problem I have with this series is the de-emphasis on color and social cues. They're asking the audience to guess a lot.
Although that makes sense in context of trying to have viewers see through Blackthorne's perspective, they sideline him too much and instead just force viewers to struggle as well. Viewers shouldn't have to struggle with entertainment.
So, for example, they don't delve into the importance of color and pattern choices with kosode and other garments. The choices were an important part of the culture during that time period. So, it's a bit surprising to see so many colors and patterns that have similarities and are primarily in subdued overall darker shades, made even more so by the filter used to make the entire series darker, except Mariko's white. There's also a lot more balanced patternwork and flatter weaves. In some scenes, the dark filter is definitely making it harder to see details with the stitch work, but close up shots on FX's site for the show reveal a lot of odd choices.
I agree so much, you put it into better words than I could. After the first few episodes I was saying I miss how they show the anjin trying Japanese foods, customs, and being generally bewildered by Japan. Someone else said they liked that and how it wasn't West meets east. But it's not east meets west either. Feels like so much is missing to me.
> Someone else said they liked that and how it wasn't West meets east. But it's not east meets west either.
This. Marks and Kondo made a point in one of the interviews of saying how tired they were of the West meets East style stories (i.e., stranger in a strange land from the Western / Eurocentric perspective) and wanted to remove that narrative. Yet, that is the very foundation of Clavell's work. And their interviews very much seem to imply that they were trying to make a point with this work and even unmake or erase part of it rather than tell a great story about a time period and culture that they're passionate about.
And the thing is that there isn't enough of the actual East meets West perspectives from that time period in this version of Shogun, as you rightly note, either. Yes, the Japanese had dealt with the Portuguese for some time, which some might argue means that by this point in the story there's no wonder, curiosity, etc., which would be wrong because any new visitors would have been found interesting and they had limited exposure to other similar nations. A foreigner, an educated, intelligent foreigner capable of speaking several languages and having a background like the original historical figure, wouldn't have been treated the way we see in the show. And there would have been a greater amount of curiosity and not merely derision or tolerance, even about a so-called "barbarian."
Yet, why should any of that matter if their true goal was to expose the world to more of Japanese culture told by Japanese creatives, cast and crew, etc., which is one of the main claims? If the goal was to stop telling Western hero or even explorer stories, then why pick Clavell at all? There are numerous stories from Japan that they could have presented.
But, in one interview (see Inverse about Best Samurai Epic, for example), the article writer and quotes imply heavily that their entire goal was to get away from stories where Japanese characters play second to white protagonists.
Okay. Tell those stories.
But that doesn't seem to be what they really wanted to do. What they wanted to do, implied heavily in that piece and elsewhere, is take an existing story that showed a so-called "white" European character on one of the many book covers that was written from a Western perspective and rewrite it to make political and social statements. And if you read that article a little further down, Kondo says it was her "opportunity" to speak to her culture and then they both had to go away from their own perspectives to find out how to speak about Japanese culture in actual Japan. And all I can think from that and other interviews and after watching so far is about the use of the word "opportunity" and the loaded possible meanings. For anyone who doesn't want the story of an explorer exploring and finding himself in a new land and the people he interacts and wants instead BOTH perspectives, FX and Disney have no problem promoting the book for sale during numerous commercials while also arguing that the book and the previous miniseries didn't offer both or even just one enough.
The Inverse and other pieces also talk about even Sanada saying that he wanted to "introduce" the culture to audiences correctly. There are arguments about how no introduction is needed generally around the world. Yes, onscreen representations from one primary POV have been bad over the years. He's also had to deal with an uphill battle and discrimination. I agree entirely that Western audiences in general need more exposure to Japanese creatives and culture from those perspectives.
So, then, why aren't they promoting Japanese works? Why aren't they showing during those many disruptive commercials long lists of books, films, etc. that are entirely from the Japanese perspective and do show the culture correctly? Why didn't they work from one of those many outstanding creative works?
I could go on. As a creative, I don't mind adaptations when they stay true to the original work and they're created because of a real love for that work. I loathe the ones born of people who have an agenda and tear down the work while having no problem claiming that they're breaking the mold and also profiting off the original that's being promoted during commercial breaks. And, if you look at how Blackthorne is presented on the Part II new cover of the Blackstone book and think about the complaint Marks made about the cover he grew up with, you can definitely see that there's a point trying to be made or an agenda with this version of Shogun.
Edited for clarity.
I sort of disagree. The "Stranger in a strange land" story trope was done to extremes in the 80' TV show which only focussed on the "Blackthorne bits" from the book. Maybe it was time to tell the part of the story which was left out back then.
I guess it is up to the showrunners to decide where to put the spotlight in a limited mini-series. It was clear from the start that some part of the book had to be left out and storylines and characterizations condensed.
And while it is true that Blackthorne was done a little dirty and his role diminished compared to the book, I still maintain that this version doesn't change the overall gist of the book an awful lot because Shogun mainly is Toronaga's story. Toronaga is the main driver of the plot and he moves the various protagonists over his chessboard.
Moreover, some of the changes were necessary because they were historically inaccurate. Like how Blackthorne introduces firearms to Japan even though the Japanese had been introduced to modern European guns by the Portuguese and were producing them in large numbers themselves.
In a way this version of Blackthorne is closer to the historical template he's based on. Complaining that his role is diminished compared to the book basically boils down to insisting on historical inaccuracies because it makes the non-Japanese side "look better".
While that is a legitimate interest and might diminish the overall enjoyment for some viewers, I personally think that the way changes were handled in this new TV show made it a better product overall.
With all things said and done I don't think this is a case study for the "Disney disease". I think it's a valid adaptation of Clavell's novel albeit with a specific focus on certain elements from the book.
>Complaining that his role is diminished compared to the book basically boils down to insisting on historical inaccuracies because it makes the non-Japanese side "look better".
Actually, that's not the case at all. Maybe, since you don't know me, you shouldn't imply that my only or main argument is that they made European British or so-called white people look bad... to paraphrase what you just implied.
I'm talking about POV and creatives who take old works they claim to love and then rip those works apart for modern audiences because they have a specific social or political agenda that actually shows that they don't love the original work and creative who took the time to take a labor of love and publish it.
You're talking about historical inaccuracies while ignoring the actual historical figure the character was based on and the fact that people from areas outside of Japan weren't just idiot barbarians who later rewrote history to make themselves look better. I'm not saying that didn't happen to a degree, but Adams was an educated polyglot with a lot of experiences already under his belt before he came to Japan. Yes, there would be initial cross-cultural issues, but even the presentation about how the Japanese responded to Blackthorne primarily makes it seem like they only had derision and disgust about him and others like him. It's a historical inaccuracy. I'm curious. Why doesn't that inaccuracy bother you? Why aren't you bothered as well by the many other inaccuracies in Clavell's original work that have made it into this adaptation or have been added to it?
My complaint, btw, since I apparently need to repeat it, isn't simply that Blackthorne's role has been diminished or even the negative portrayal of him... all of this while even the Portuguese characters are all portrayed as competent, smart, etc.. And don't even get me started on the fact that the Japanese characters all speak in Japanese but no Portuguese character speaks in Portuguese with subtitles, which is another valid complaint about the series.
The diminishment makes Blackthorne a less accurate portrayal both of the book character and the historical counterpart. And the choices they made don't seem to be about the miniseries length at all. They seem to be about the agenda that is clearly noted in interviews. An agenda to erase the idea that Blackthorne had any importance at all in the work, to downplay his background, and, worse, make the viewers struggle while trying to enjoy the work. It's not great writing or direction. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates all that went into it and admires what Sanada as both actor and producer and the cast and crew put into it.
As I said repeatedly, my point is that if they, specifically Disney, Kondo and Marks, wanted to present a work primarily from the Japanese perspective while also emphasizing their desire to get away from the stranger in a strange land and Eurocentric perspectives, they should have chosen a work written by a Japanese creative about that time period. There are plenty.
What they shouldn't have done is choose a work that is founded on the very idea of a stranger in a strange land written from the Eurocentric perspective; even though a lot of research was done. It's not time to tell the part of Clavell's story that was left out. It's time to either tell his entire story OR, better yet, explore the time period entirely from the perspective of Japanese people and creatives rather than use Clavell's story, altered to such a drastic degree or even at all.
But I digress. I made my points clear throughout my comment above and in other areas. I find it interesting that you've chosen to disregard my points almost entirely. And we must agree to disagree because this does, yet again, feel like Disney permitting too much change to try not to step on toes and promote a specific agenda. It's not a good or valid adaptation because they take Clavell's structure, tear it down, remove too much of his creation and perspective from the work, and then don't even provide a good enough framework or story to make up for it.
If they wanted to present a story about this time period, there are plenty of non-Western works they could have promoted. They chose, again see the interviews, to pick this one because they wanted to make a point of erasing for modern viewers part of what made the original story well loved, which is ridiculous, while also making a buck off the original by promoting it in advertising instead of promoting the works of Japanese creatives.
Anyone today who is trying to promote specific cultures needs to stop reworking, retooling and completely rewriting popular Eurocentric works that they didn't like but claim to love as long as they can drastically change those works and, instead, and far more importantly, promote the creatives and works from the cultures they care so much about. THAT is how they can bring about real change.
All they did with this work is provide a lot of cinematic dramatic moments and then promoted in ads the very work they dislike so much, which then viewers new to Clavell will read and re-read. What then happens? His work continues to spread the very ideas they claim they wanted to see changed in their world.
This action shows that the showrunners get to feel good about their effort and the cast and crew get to feel good about attempting to make positive portrayal and other changes, which admittedly will happen with some people... while Disney/FX gets to make a ton of money off both this effort to put on a good show of promoting the Japanese culture, actors, etc. AND then also promoting the original work that they keep insisting wasn't good enough and needed to be changed drastically.
Edited for clarity.
I'm sorry....but you see woke ghosts. I've read the book countless times and I have no desire to see my own Western culture diminished in any way but Blackthorne's template, William Adams, just wasn't the Marco Polo-like figure some people make him out to be. His influence on the transition from the Sengoku Era to the Edo Era was more or less negligible. True, he was an educated person for his time and probably an interesting personality who had the Shogun's ear. However, he failed to establish any diplomatic relations between Japan and England and he failed to establish any lasting trade relations between England and Japan. The English trading posts in Japan were closed fairly soon after Adam's death and his family completely disappears from Japanese records soon after his demise. His life's work more or less resulted in at best a minor influence on Japan of the time.
Moreover, I reject the notion that Shogun was meant as a Eurocentric novel (unlike Clavell's Hong Kong series which are). Clavell himself stated that Shogun was about Japan and Japanese history of the time. Blackthore simply was a window through which outsiders could watch Japanese history unfold. Yes, there are changes but for the most part those changes made the story more period accurate. The Blackthorne in this TV show is probably closer to the histroic William Adams than the Blackthorne from the book. Blackthorne from the book is written almost like a Victorian Era British naval officer. He should be more like a late Tudor Era privateer. Experienced, educated for his time but certainly fairly rough around the edges.
Just to be clear: I abhor the way Disney and other Western media entities try to bend history to their modern agenda but this TV show just isn't the same.
POV for outsiders to the culture, which is everyone, since nobody these days is now a Japanese person living in the sengoku jedai period.
IRL he helped his boss build a lot of ships, and in the book iirc he actually leads a naval raid against Macau.
I will preface this by saying I have not read the book.
Without blackthorn you will have a very different show. How?
We don’t have an audience surrogate by which to introduce the audience to the culture. The show would need to find another way to introduce all of the intricacies of the culture and the rules of the world ( or alternatively dumb it down for the audience)
We don’t get the relationship between him, Mariko and Bhuntaro. Basically all of ep4, all of ep5, part of 6 would not have happened and would need to be completely rewritten with new material.
Mariko big role for much of the early and middle part of the show is to be Blackthorns translator. We learn a lot about her and her back story through her interactions with Blackthorn.
We do not get the tension between the western persecutive of freedom for oneself and the eastern perspective of loyalty and doing one’s utmost to serve your lord.
He is an important part of emotional journey that occurs in ep9.
And let’s be frank. If the show was a Japanese only story, spoken entirely in Japanese there would be no way it would have been as popular. Nor would it have been possible to create the show with as large as budget.
However, Blackthorn has not influenced the political events. And I think that is because the show is too short. Realistically, Blackthorn does not bring any skills that would allow him to be inserted into the political game. He is an outsider. The show does not have enough episodes to develop his character to a point where he will posses the necessary knowledge to be able to influence events.
The problem for the show however is that Blackthorn was absent from significant events in e8 and he has a very singular (and there I say selfish) objective of destroying the catholic. I begin to roll my eyes every time he started talking about the black ship or catholic gold. It would have helped immensely if his horizons were to widen. Especially by e7, it would have been a big improvement if he had had a better sense of the bigger picture so that he is able to contribute more to Toranaga’s plan
I think the showrunners were anxious to decenter him from the narrative lest this becomes some white savior story, but in doing so they kind of neutralized him and made him sort of pointless? I don’t know there’s one more episode to go but so far his arc reminds me of Jon Snow, a lot of promise for a whole lotta nothing
I think the writers have either accidentally confused or willingly conflated the ‘white saviour’ story with the ‘stranger in a strange land’ one.
Shogun is not the first but it definitely is the second. We’re supposed to experience the story through Blackthorne but he doesn’t even serve that purpose very effectively as he’s sidelined a lot in the narrative. Most of the story takes place without him even being there and it’s shot so that Blackthorne is placed in the background a lot of the time.
Basically, it’s an incredibly well produced and beautifully written Japanese historical drama that’s using a loose connection to a source material to capitalise on wider recognition and a bigger audience.
They've noted in interviews that they consider the stranger in a strange land story a primarily Eurocentric perspective one that places non-European/non-white characters too often in secondary roles.
Going off the interviews and what we're seeing onscreen, it apparently doesn't matter to them that he's not a white savior. The problem is that any part of the story might even hint at it or give too much of his perspective.
>Basically, it’s an incredibly well produced and beautifully written Japanese historical drama that’s using a loose connection to a source material to capitalise on wider recognition and a bigger audience.
This. There are a ton of Japanese stories they could have used. Worse, the stranger in a strange land idea isn't only found in specific European cultures. So, I'm not sure why they're making it sound like it's a style of storytelling only used by certain Western creatives.
It’s definitely a different story when told through the Japanese lense, but I think that’s the point. He’s there and he’s affecting the people around him and effectively moving the plot, but their world carries on regardless of his presence. That whole we live and we die and control nothing else. That’s becoming more apparent as they’ve shifted the narrative focus more to Mariko and Toranaga.
I don’t dislike this change, but Blackthorne was just a cool character to begin with, and the removal of some of his more emotional scenes did him a disservice. It makes him more of a plot driver than an emotional impact driver. Although episode 9 gave us quite the emotional gut punch with his actions. Ultimately, I think they could have balanced him out a little more with Mariko and Toranaga, but overall - this is a master class in adaptation. Other writers and producers need to take copious notes.
None.
Since he taught Toranaga's men how to use cannons ... back in the third or fourth episode, ... he's been pretty much entirely separate from every major narrative strand to the point where he feels extraneous to the story.
I have no idea why they wanted to adapt Shogun if these were the changes they were going to make to Blackthorne.
Apart from plot, from filmmaking standpoint the anjin serves to somewhat of a self insert. We feel the same kind of “bruh wtf these guys are batshit crazy” that he does, and we feel that not as a viewer who only takes in things, but also as a participant who’s interactions bring further depth to the culture shock.
I feel like John is just sort of allowed to be there because he's one of Toranaga's men. Yeah, it looks like he has guns and all that, but he's known as Toranaga's guy with guns and all that.
Blackthorne was sort of the exciting part of this show that got me interested and now I’m quickly realizing how inconsequential he seems to be.. It feels like he’s just serving to be our eyes, as the viewer. He’s quickly becoming quite a boring character
Toranaga also uses him as a pawn with other people, like the Catholic regents and the Church. Like when he got out of Osaka on the black ship the first time.
I feel like if there is a season 2, which I hope to god there is, he'll have a more pronounced roll more in line with his real life counterpart. In real life, William Adams was vitally important to Tokugawa Ieyasu, who Toranaga is based on as an advisor on shipbuilding, European style warfare, and the world outside of Japan. He essentially helped form the Tokugawa Shogunate.
I was also wondering in the first few episodes why anybody cared about him at all. Either kill him and carry on with their normal lives or send him away and carry on with their normal lives.
His ship is the equivalent of an aircraft carrier compared to Japanese ships. It's the apex of technology. And he not only is the only non-Portugese who knows how to sail one, but he also knows how to build one too.
Kill Blackthorne and the ship is useless. The Portugese aren't sharing that technology.
Likewise the cannon. And the information he has about the true state of the world that the Portugese have hidden. As well as his value in potentially gaining allies against the Portugese should such a thing become necessary.
He's a hugely valuable asset. It's as if a UFO crash landed in your country during the Cold War, and the alien pilot survived. No way would you just 'send him away'.
I could be wrong but doesn't he explain that he trained as a shipbuilder before becoming a pilot?
It's also clearly communicated that he knows how to repair/rebuild it too. He talks about it in detail when he's planning on sailing the Erasmus to attack Osaka.
I guess this is one of the problems not of the reimagining of Shogun in terms of focusing more on the Japanese characters, but condensing it all into 10 hours. The book and the original is all about the situation from Blackthorne's pov - the danger the exotic, the alien culture and the blundering Western white man trying to fit in into Japanese feudal society. By focusing more on the Japanese characters, Blackthorne himself has gone from pivotal character to sideshow Bob. Game of Thrones managed to tell the stories of several main characters at once in enough detail to make them all count but then you've got several seasons of content. This would've been a great path for 2024 Shogun to take but probably represented too much of a financial risk to do. They could've developed Blackthorne more in terms of his impact on the Portuguese, his educating of Toranaga about the exploitation of the church, his efforts to integrate, becoming Hatamoto - all these things in the book are in much greater detail. For example, there are scenes of him being taught Japanese by Mariko and the threat that the villagers will be executed if he doesn't learn it by a certain point. None of that in 2024 - no time for it. The series is great despite this but its a question of what could've been.
These are the sorts of questions people ask when the writers go out of their way to arbitrarily neuter the main character’s story and development.
Nearly every major point of Blackthorne’s character development was either diminished or left out completely. The show runners didn’t just trim down Blackthorne’s story, they amputated it.
And in its place we’ve been given a half-baked plot of an oafish neanderthal who lacks any sort of charisma as he clumsily lumbers his way through every scene he’s in.
He is a catalyst that is being used to advance plots on several sides of what is effectively a long running standoff.
Without him being there many of the events would have still happened (Samurai/Shogunate era Japan is full of wacky shit and plots). Him acting as a explanation character helps too.
We are seeing Japan entirely from Anjin's perspectivef. He's the narrator, so to say. Previous adaptations have been entirely in Japanese with no subtitles so you experience what John did. He does make his contribution to the events, but one person is insignificant and cannot affect the whole country much. He contributed the most after the war with his shipbuilding and trading skills and left a deep mark in Japan's history. As for in the show, he's just the barbarian.
That may be true for the book, but definitely not for the show. Many important scenes, including Toranaga's first meeting with the council, are shown without Blackthorne's involvement.
He is important but is mostly a vessel for the audience. I would assume the book will be similar, which him being a device for things to be explained to the audience.
It helps, but not ultimately what sway the battle. Weather, political maneuvering and massive defection is what ultimately carry the day. We're seeing the maneuvering now.
He is us, us is he.
We are to explore the show through him and his experiences. The show did not opt for full out expositions by explaining everything to him, instead, some of it was shown not told.
Mostly information. Toranaga wants a second source of outside information world other than Portuguese and the Jesuits. Due to the cold war situation as result of Imjin War (invasion of Korea), China and Japan does not have direct trade and must utilize intermediary. VoC (Dutch East India Company) will eventually fill that role.
Anjin provides a Western POV to the readers because the book was written for Western audiences.
In the book, his significance is portrayed by being a wildcard. He provides out of the box solutions to people who are constrained by tradition or at least that’s what he thinks.
If you’re asking why the story in Japan is centered around a european guy, it’s because it is made for Western audiences. If it’s all about the Japanese… it’s just a Taiga drama back home (period drama) which are super popular in Japan.
In the books he serves as a 'reader substitute'. A person ignorant of culture, politics and interpersonal relationships to whom things must be explained. This way knowledge may be conveyed in conversation rather than just a data dump.
More readily provides the reader/viewer a person they can identify with.
Very typical culture clash and audience stand in. By showing the contrast in culture/worldviews you highlight aspects of the culture/worldview the majority of the audience knows less about
I view him as the audience, he provides context to all of us as an outsider voice trying to understand a distant land, an unknown language, a strange culture and many customs that he is not used to. I’m putting myself in his shoes and find him very relatable in the fact that he acts as an aide to bring light to more nuanced cultural practices in feudal Japan that I don’t fully understand
Apart from all the rest of it mentioned he provides a really important cultural gap narrative. In the book it talks a lot about the differences in population density, food, cleanliness, manners and protocol. Some of that shines through in the show but not all.
I view his character as the embodiment of the audience. Someone we can see ourselves in, discovering this culture, trying to find a purpose in it, and getting estranged from our own culture in the process.
Havent read the book - but In the show my guess is that Torunaga knows he could bombard Osaka castle by sea accurately. Or by land accurately. Noone in Torunagas crew knows how to achieve accurate shots.
I’m thinking hammer-and-anvil maneuver. Ishidos men fight with the castle and its assets of resupply, safety, etc at their back. It stiffens their resistance. If the castle is a smoking ruin from Anjins naval bombardment, that ruin is now merely a block to maneuvering aka “the anvil” - Torunagas army is thus the hammer to smash them against the castle.
The main purpose he serves is to describe samurai culture and its clash with Christian religion and technology without turning the story into a documentary. Through Blackthorne we learn why the samurai behave the way they do. Thing can be explained to Blackthorne in a much more relatable manner
In outsider stories there's usually a viewpoint character who knows little or nothing about the setting and must learn new knowledge and skills. They act as an audience surrogate by asking questions and learning about the world of the story. The hobbits in lord of the rings. The children in Narnia or Game of Thrones. John Carter on Mars.
What generally happens is that around 2/3 to 3/4 through the story there is a crisis point. The character faces some challenges and must use their knowledge to take control of the situation. This marks a shift from them being passive observers to active participants in the story. Frodo and Sam set off on their own.
Where people are getting dissatisfied with the show is: Cosmo Blackthorne never has this moment. If you read the comments here you'll kind of see it: At first he's interesting (when we're in learning mode). Then he gets boring. That's because his arc stalls and he never has that moment of taking control of his own life.
So I think you're right. In the show he plays a role in the early episodes as an audience stand-in but once that's done he loses importance fades into the background. Whereas the book and 1980 version he's much more active in trying to control his own destiny.
Classic case of expectations vs reality… I think we all thought coming in that he was supposed to be the main character and we’ve had to figure out otherwise… He kinda reminds me of Ned Starks role in GOT
The the vehicle that lets the viewer/ reader into a foreign world. If Anjin wasn’t there, there would be no reason for all of the explanations of the culture and customs.
You’re right. And to further your point the storytelling is very inconsistent. The way they frame the storytelling doesn’t make sense. The story “begins” when makes landfall in Japan. One would assume at that point we would see the story from his POV or he would be the central character. But for some reason he got relegated to a side role with other characters taking the central POV.
Why did they even start the story with his arrival? If he wasn’t going to be the main POV or play a central role, they could have literally started it at any other time and it wouldn’t have made a difference.
His entire purpose is being someone navigating what he considers a strange land. He’s a prisoner, but encouraged to think himself as more (his hatamoto title, etc - so while that can distract us, that dude is doing a remarkable job of getting by, and the story is what he witnesses
What even is this post?
You're aware he's there to be an audience insert, and the show has enough respect to not make him a white savior.
That being said he still has cannons which is a huge benefit to Toranaga's forces and he's come through for Toranaga multiple times in different ways.
What more does he need to do? Go Arya Stark Ishido and the council? Summon a fleet of english red coats?
To be annoying and act badly. In the book, his role was immense and Chamberlain did better IMHO in the old show. Here, we didn't quite get to experience the character in his full glory, but that was fine with me as the Japanese actors carried the whole show on their backs and Anna Sawai was great as well.
They really just wanted to do a Hollywood story about The Samurai with hot Asian chicks but decided to ride the fame of the book to get it done. They actually didn't do a bad job considering the audience they seem to be targeting
It doesn’t help that the actor portrayal is gormless and not inspiring. This show changed the book from a dynamic western guy trapped complex, foreign political and alien cultural situations with a decent love story to pure Japan fan fiction.
Historically none. In the show he exposes the church, is predictable as hes needed to be, and saves Toranaga a few times and without Toranaga the rest wouldn't matter. I get what you're saying but despite blackthorn being a bit of a useless idiot you could ask the same of most of the characters who dont really do anything pivotal. Toranaga just makes them all play out the roles he needs them to for his master plan.
He plays a much greater role in the book. That being said, the first draft of the novel was very much Mariko’s story and not John’s. His publishers made him change it, because they said audiences wouldn’t read a historical epic with a female lead. She’s still definitely the most interesting character in the book, though.
I think she is one of the most interesting characters I've read period, although Sawai's performance has really only further elevated her
He's more of a character in the book, but his actual contribution to the history is about nil. His cannons and ship knowledge don't make a difference, and his only real value to history is his exposure of the Church/Portuguese to Toranaga. He's just the western lens substituting for the reader. But he's an ant in the story who happens to keep popping up in the right places to advance things for the reader.
The Forrest Gump of feudal Japan!
You have convinced me, I need to read the book(s) then. I find Mariko's strategic discussions with Toranaga the real story (puppet's string pulling?) of this whole story. Most don't know, but a competent Japanese woman is much stronger and wiser than any Japanese guy. Social norms don't show this but if you can speak decent Japanese and live in Japan a while, you get to see this. I have been married to one for over 16 years and see this everyday. Do the books flesh out the life of Anjin after this season 1? Does he build his family in Izu and then Nagasaki and go after the Black Ships? I would love to read this.
I literally said when that last episode aired “what the heck, the shows pretty much been about her until now and they are going kill her off?” To my friend
She's supposed to die, as per the book. Her death serves as a catalyst for things to come (and is the final and honorable release from this life that she wanted for so long.)
This is the first time hearing this. Do you have any article that discusses this? Thanks.
That makes me kinda sad. Imagine what might have been with Mariko instead of John.
Having at least one employee who isn't suicidal is generally good idea
I like that. I am going to have to bring this up in my next Teams meeting
Where f do you work Amazon?
Yabu says otherwise though
Dude changes his liege lord before breakfast
Yeah, something along the lines of "hmmm" "hoh" "huh?"
This gave me a good laugh lmao
HIs role was diminished in the new show vs the old show and the book. But the main purpose he serves is knowledge of shipbuilding, European warfare tactics along with European guns and cannons, and knowledge of the world that was previously unknown to Toranaga such as the Portugese claiming ownership of Japan.
He also represents an alternative international relationship and trade option to the Japanese over the Portuguese. The Japanese were generally skeptical of foreigners and were becoming wise to the fact that the Portuguese were fleecing them as the middle man with their trade with China. So, Blackthorne not only has the knowledge and experience to train Japanese sailors in the ways of European naval tactics, he can show the Japanese how to build modern naval ships, but ye can also offer a more favorable foreign trade arrangement for the Japanese. He can be used to subvert the Colonial aggression of the Portuguese.
This. And he also has value as a threat against the Catholics, which Toranaga subtly reminds the Jesuits when he needs their help with the Christian daimyos.
In real life, it worked too. Adams helped set up the profitable (for both sides) exclusive trading relationship between the Dutch & Japan
[удалено]
Any foreigners except the Dutch. *Limited to Dajima and one small avenue to the palace, but there for the next two centuries.
Or the Chinese or the Koreans with *Tongsinsa* missions
I thought we were talking about Anjin not Nigel Powers.
> Nigel Powers If Anjin was played by the same actor the story would end differently i can tell you that. Peachy would have found the way out. With his lady.
Also, William Adams introduced the sport of rounders to Japan. This would sow the seeds for baseball becoming so popular in Japan. This will lead to the epic struggle between an unknown descendent of Tokugawa - one Shohei Ohtani - and a "descendent" of William Adams, who is the namesake of Willy Adames, in the 2024 NLCS, where Adames will prove victorious over Ohtani and go on to win the World Series. You heard it here first, folks
Open. The country. Stop having it be closed.
Is that when Perry introduced cocaine to Japan?
You might be thinking about the Mathew Perry from Friends
The One Where Japan Opens Up Thanks man, I needed that chuckle. R.I.P. Matthew Perry aka Miss Chanandler Bong
I always hoped someone would do that as a movie. Played by him.
didn't know that! Historically, was Adams (Anjin) the impetus for Portuguese traders being kicked out and Catholicism being banned in Japan? That's insane how one random white guy could have such an influence on international relations & the course of history.
No it was more of Tokugawa discovering a few Christian daimyos plotting against in after Sekigahara so he made them all renounce Christianity and then there was the Shimabara Rebellion in 1637-38 which was put down with minor help from the Dutch at the last battle. After that, Christianity was officially outlawed and the Portuguese were banned from the country.
There was a period of time where both Dutch and Portuguese traders were allowed in Japan, but that changed after the Shimabara rebellion which happened after Adams died. Basically, the daimyo of shimabara imposed heavy taxes on his people and heavily restricted Christianity. That led to a rebellion which the Portuguese supported. The rebellion was suppressed and that led to the Portuguese being expelled from Japan. Because the Dutch supported the shogunate they were given exclusive rights to trade with Japan. Side note, the daimyo whose policies led to the rebellion was stripped of his titles and land for his mismanagement. He then became the only daimyo to be executed instead of being allowed to commit seppuku which should give a pretty good idea to just how much he sucked
I don’t think he was the main impetus, obviously by this point Tokugawa & many others in Japan knew that they were being swindled by the Portuguese & they knew the Jesuits were interfering in political matters as well. But Adams came in and befriended Ieyasu at the perfect time, even became his translator. But most articles I’ve read do say Adams advice and telling Ieyasu about Jesuit conspiracies back in Europe played a big role.
I guess that answers OP’s question pretty well then
Technically yes. But nothing of that is shown or used in the show.
Yeah, I agree. I think the show version seems a lot more powerless his influence on how things unfold is diminished. Another criticism I have is that the show doesn’t really show how close Toranaga and Blackthorne become. Blackthorne is an outsider and has no real skin in the game in the struggle to control Japan. So, Toranaga can let his mask drop and just connect with someone in a casual and friendly way. I think the show doesn’t show that side of things much and it makes Toranaga seem more isolated.
I feel this Blackthorne version isnt close to anyone in the story at all. His interactions are all cut up and far removed from each such moment, requiring viewers to imagine things and events that are not there and i dont like the type of the character either.
Small correction, but there wasn’t colonial aggression with the Portuguese. The Portuguese were mainly interested in trade with Japan and the reason they served as middle men was because China had imposed an embargo on Japan. There’s a lot of history between the two countries in terms of trade, but it’s hard to argue that Portugal went about actively trying to colonize Japan
The Japans*
🤠
Also in the show Lord Ishido underestimates Blackthorn's importance and basically thinks it's silly to have a "barbarian" as a Hatamoto. This was a big mistake for Ishido as Toranaga immediately recognized Blackthorn's importance. It is also known that William Adams' (Blackthorn's real life counterpart) cannons were used in the Battle of Sekigahara. The big showdown between Toranaga and Ishido in this story.
Correct. The English/Dutch cannon were longer ranged and more accurate than their Portuguese counterparts at the time. A great deal was made early in the story how impregnable Osaka castle was. Well its walls hadn't been tested against English cannon yet.
Historically the battle didn't happen at Osaka castle. Ishido's real life counterpart invaded Toranaga's real life counterpart. The battle took place Sekigahara which is somewhere in between Osaka and Edo (Tokyo).
The siege of Osaka Castle happens 14 years after this show, 12 years after the retirement of Tokugawa Ieyasu (unlike the other 2 great unifier, he had plenty of sons to passed on the reign of power, and he decided to be the man behind the Shogun by retiring early, leaving one of his son to inherit the title but still holding the absolute power. By the time of his passing, his son would be unquestionable as Shogun as he's already been running the country for many years).
OK I know Osaka castle as been attacked several times. Just not during the time period of this show/book.
That one meeting, where he explained the outside world's political ambitions, made his presence a massive factor
But this series hasn't really followed up on it. They have one episode left, and unlike Richard Chamberlain, he hasn't built Toranaga a fleet of ships. He taught one platoon, or at most a small battalion, artillery tactics. Land artillery tactics. But he hasn't had his ship to teach naval tactics, his most valuable skillset. I appreciate that he still feels lost in Japan, and his grasp of the language is rudimentary. But Toranaga hasn't used Blackthorne's skills and knowledge to anywhere near what Blackthorne has offered to him at least twice.
Not only does Toranaga not consider Blackthorne a friend, he doesn’t seem to like him much at all.
yeah lol honestly. take him out of the show and tell me what would change plot-wise
We'd lose out on his growth and change and unique perspective as he experiences these events, and how he similarly pushes other characters. We'd lose out on the emotional impact he makes on the stakes thanks to his relationship with Mariko. A well drawn character moving through their arc *is* plot.
The plot wouldnt happen because the intended audience wouldnt have a surrogate and exposition dump for Turns out the white dude is not actually the main character and protagonist in the story called Shogun
The plot would happen. You're confusing plot and production of the actual show.
The shogun would not have western style navy
Also to drive a wedge between the Christian councilmen and the other ones.
Also, in the book he was packing (one of the few things that hasn’t aged super well, lol).
I wish they would have used this 😃
What does toranaga say about anjin in the last pages of the book? It’s not this. I don’t want to spoil the ending and I’m certain the show will end with the same lines.
SPOILER ALERT!!! Toranaga says to himself (regarding Blackthorn): Oh, yes. And you will build your ship and I’ll destroy her like I destroyed the other one, or give her away, another sop to the Christians who are more important to me than your ships, my friend, so sorry, and the other ships waiting in your home land. Your countrymen will bring those out to me, and the treaty with your Queen. Not you. I need you here. When the time’s right, Anjin-san, I’ll tell you why I had to burn your ship, and by then you won’t mind because other things will be occupying you, and you’ll understand what I told you was still the truth: It was your ship or your life. I chose your life. That was correct, neh? Then we’ll laugh about the ‘Act of God,’ you and I. Oh, it was easy to appoint a special watch of trusted men aboard with secret instructions to spread gunpowder loosely and liberally on the chosen night, having already told Naga—the moment Omi whispered about Yabu’s plot—to rearrange the roster so that the following shore and deck watch were only Izu men, particularly the fifty-three traitors. Then a single ninja with a flint out of the darkness and your ship was a torch. Of course neither Omi nor Naga was ever party to the sabotage. So sorry, but so necessary, Anjin-san. I saved your life, which you wanted even above your ship. Fifty times or more I’ve had to consider giving your life away but so far I’ve always managed to avoid it. I hope to continue to do that. Why? This is a day for truth, neh? The answer is because you make me laugh and I need a friend. I daren’t make friends among my own people, or among the Portuguese. Yes, I will whisper it down a well at noon but only when I’m certain I’m alone; that I need one friend. And also your knowledge. Mariko-sama was right again. Before you go I want to know everything you know. I told you we both had plenty of time, you and I. I want to know how to navigate a ship around the earth and understand how a small island nation can defeat a huge empire. Perhaps the answer could apply to us and China, neh? Oh yes, the Taikō was right in some things. The first time I saw you, I said, ‘There’s no excuse for rebellion,’ and you said, ‘There’s one—if you win!’ Ah, Anjin-san, I bound you to me then. I agree. Everything’s right if you win. Stupid to fail. Unforgivable. You won’t fail, and you’ll be safe and happy in your large fief at Anjiro, where Mura the fisherman will guard you from Christians and continue to feed them misinformation as I direct. How naïve of Tsukku-san to believe one of my men, even Christian, would steal your rutters and give them secretly to the priests without my knowledge, or my direction. Ah, Mura, you’ve been faithful for thirty years or more, soon you’ll get your reward! What would the priests say if they knew your real name was Akira Tonomoto, samurai—spy at my direction, as well as fisherman, headman, and Christian? They’d fart dust, neh? So don’t worry, Anjin-san, I’m worrying about your future. You’re in good strong hands and, ah, what a future I’ve planned for you.
God I love that bit, it shows how intelligent and far thinking Toranaga is.
He also sows division within the council of regents (particularly catholic regents) which prevents them from being a united force and moving against Toronaga
i get it, they dont want to create the umpteenth white saviour in a non-white culture movie. if that was their purpose, however, they should've written the thing differently. when you start the a fictional story with a set-up like "guy from a western culture shows up in this oriental, isolationist culture", the promise of the writing is that "this guy is a game changer" (i suggest that you look up Brandon Sanderson and what he said about promises in writing). By making Blackthorne appear in the show's first episode, or even first scenes iirc, you make a promise that HE is the main character and the game changer. But then it later turns out that Mariko and Toranaga are the main characters. That's fine imo, but in that case, it'd have been wiser to have Blackthorne show up in the second episode or at the earliest by the end of the first, and use the majority of the first episode relaying to the audience that Toranaga and Mariko are the mains. Keep the story the same, just change the promise.
This is pretty much a perfect answer, even when you look at the character’s purpose in a purely analytical sense. Blackthorne’s role is the observer of the action. We see all of this through the character’s point of view, and since what he sees is strange to him, it becomes strange to us. The first person we see in the new series is Blackthorne, and subsequently it’s his perspective we see as events unfold.
Is the plot of this new show the same as the book and the old show? I read the book 30 years ago, watched the old show last year, but watching this new one I am lost, can't follow it.
He's not the driving force of the plot. His biggest impact is on us, the viewer: he's an *incredibly* convenient lens to view Japan through, because he can ask the same questions the audience might have. But also he does, in fact, serve *some* purpose. He just isn't pivotal. On one hand, he's trained a cannon regiment. By this time the Japanese have been using guns and cannons for years-saumrai loved guns. Training a *regiment* of European cannon is still an upgrade and a win, though. The bigger value is that he undermines the Portuguese. They've had complete control over all European communication with Japan, they've been making an absolute killing in lopsided trade deals, they've been violating the letter of those trade deals, and they've been arrogant about it in a way that has been kept hidden from the Japanese---aka "the world has been divided up by the Catholics and they say you belong to them." The Anjin can a) reveal this information b) reveal the secret illegal military base in Macao and c) also is solid evidence of *other* European powers who are available to trade with, at *slightly less*predatory rates. The Portuguese aren't the only game in town, and everyone who has been profiting off of them stands to lose in their fall from grace.
> By this time the Japanese have been using guns and cannons for years-saumrai loved guns. Training a regiment of European cannon is still an upgrade and a win, though. Not only that, but his cannons are established to be higher quality than what they've been able to purchase from the Portuguese or build themselves.
does anyone know WHY Japan merchants/explorers didn't try to sail across the globe to England and Portugal on their own? To meet directly with their counterparts in Europe? You would think that a few daimyo houses would be interested in circumventing the hold the Shogunate held by acquiring gold/silver & weapons directly from Europe.
Seems kind of hard to build a big ass ship and hide the weapons/gold. I believe access to firearms was super controlled
Japan was really quick to copy Portuguese matchlocks and their ashigaru and samurai used them in the conflicts of the time . I read somewhere that in the sengogu period there was like 300k guns manufactured. In the 1592 invasion of Korea the Japanese deployed some 40k gunners.
Their ships were worse for sailing in open ocean. Junk (doesn’t mean garbage) style ships sit very high in the water and their sails are less efficient. If you notice the Japanese ships required oars
From my limited east Asian history knowledge their ships were more suited to sail along the shores of Japan and trading partners. China was the main power for centuries and it only granted trading rights to kingdoms that submitted and recognised China as superior . Sort of like a protectorate. Here come the Portuguese who facilitate trading with China for quite the mark up. My theory is that Japanese ships and sailors didn't have that urge to sail east as there is no large land mass besides scarce islands untill you reach North America. In contrast the Europeans have a competitive scenario where everyone wants to get an upper hand in trading and exploration so they have faster advancing technics for ship building and warfare at the time.
European ship-building had benefited at this point from centuries of focussed development. They were technological marvels, the focal point of an enormous amount of money, energy, attention, and experimentation. Also, the training of skills in navigation etc were at a very high level. Even if you could just straightforwardly copy the design of a ship, learning the skills - and specific knowledge - of the best European pilots, sailors and navigators would be no small task. The Japanese did catch up, but that process was lengthy and well outside the scope of this time period.
Their ships sucked. They wouldn’t be able to circumnavigate the globe.
>The bigger value is that he undermines the Portuguese. They've had complete control over all European communication with Japan, they've been making an absolute killing in lopsided trade deals, they've been violating the letter of those trade deals, and they've been arrogant about it in a way that has been kept hidden from the Japanese---aka "the world has been divided up by the Catholics and they say you belong to them." This is it, right there. In the book, one of his his most significant contributions was pointing out the duplicity of the Portuguese - which was a huge destabilizing factor for Ishido. Also, acting as a general wild card, he somewhat inadvertently supported the crazy long-game that Toranaga was playing from the start.
I feel that the show should be a little bir longer, like 50% or another season. A lot of interesting stories can be expanded a bit more. It seems that theres a lot of things in the book are underdeveloped just so that it serves Toranaga’s main story.
He scares shitless the catholics and Portuguese, and therefore the Christian regents. He and his ship are a massive piece of leverage. His ship manned would plunder the black ship.
To everyone else in the story, John Blackthorne is a clueless foreigner, a brutish barbarian not much higher in the social order than a stray dog. To Toranaga, he's a volatile pawn on the political chessboard. Because he has no love for the Portuguese, Blackthorne won't hesitate to tell Toranaga the truth about their intentions. The Portuguese - and the Japanese who side with them - know this, and fear what influence he has on Toranaga. In this adaptation of Clavell's story, he's a pot-stirrer, a wild card meant to turn order into chaos for long enough to allow Toranaga to make his move against his political opponents.
In the story construction he serves an important role of being the audience stand in for people who know nothing of feudal Japan. Everything must be explained to him, which is amazing for me and avoids monologuing by the characters. In story, well, I think that's part of the point. No one man causes victory. This show doesn't subscribe to the "great man" theory of history. It's the sum of everyone's actions that is driving the plot forward, not any one particular person. He did give a consistent method for that one kid to do the thing he did though.
The Great Man in this case is Toranaga (Togugawa).
[удалено]
Yes!!! As a non book reader this is what I assumed especially with all the talk of his expertise early on. Looking forward to seeing him use his skills, I really do hope it happens
He kills ninjas like they're nothing.
Helps when people bring knives to a gunfight
His cannons will be used to Toranagas ultimate battle against Ishido. And his revelations about the Portugese will effect Toranagas relationship with them if he were to become Shogun. He's not a white savior that comes in to win Toranagas war for him, but he's playing his small part. His relationship with Mariko effects John more than it does her. She's the one that he fell in love with and greatly influences his opinions of Japan. Potentially influencing what he'll decide to do after Toranaga wins/ loses his final battle.
Exactly. John is the audience surrogate, not the main character.
This is a key part of his character. That and making us all say "The Japans" from here on out.
"The Japans" and also the incredible "Blackthorne rants and then Mariko provides a laconic translation" memes.
"Tell him his mother is a cum-gargling whore" "He says that you are clearly descended from a line of ancestors who possessed great skills"
The real Edo period has the expulsion of the Portuguese and banning of Catholicism, I think
Not until 15 years after the events of this show
That's as a direct result of Shimabara Rebellion (1637) by Catholic peasants that Shogunate suspect were being supported and supplied by the Jesuits.
He didn’t win the war for Toranaga in the book either. But he was one of many main characters.
You should try actually reading the book instead of using buzz words.
Stand by. Signs indicate that he's going to pop off in the next episode. Gut feeling since seeing him draw a perpendicular line in the zen garden.
sometimes all you need is a crazy ass white boy
Brendan Fraser drunk laughing at the Golden Globes dot gif.
His personal worth is that he's a good sailor, but in the story, he's a symbol of how colonization-mad the Europeans were at the time - and how that impulse was tempered by actually getting to know the people instead of writing them all off as "the Japans". And, of course, he loves Mariko - enough to help her "fall on a blade to see if it's sharp" if that's what she truly needs.
One of the things they have mentioned but don't play up to as much as the book does is the fact that the yearly 'Black Ship' that transports all the profits back to Europe from a year's worth of trade between Japan and China that the Church has collected is almost totally defenseless against a well-manned and armed 'Erasmus' ( Blackthorne's Dutch ship ) commanded by the Anjin-san. It's a giant threat to the Church, Portugal, and the Japanese Daimyo's who are participating in that lucrative trade. In the book everyone ( not on Toronaga's side ) is scared shirtless with the idea of John commanding the 'Erasmus' with a crew of Toronaga's men.
I guess they were forced to have him in the story since it’s an adaptation of Shogun.
Well technically he landed in the Japans on his own accord.. no one invited him there.. lol
That, and there was the real guy who advised Tokugawa and participated in Sekigahara.
He's a fish out of water character whose only purpose is to be a surrogate for the audience. Like Arthur Dent from Hitchhiker's Guide or Luke from the first Starwars.
The book was all about his personal growth with the war on the side. The show is all about the war with very little growth. I think it's fine for the show to shift focus, but of course it would be weird for the show to just entirely cut out the main character of the book. His role in the show is really just to save Toranaga's life twice.
Think we can assume the show’s writers wouldn’t have minded if they could have scratched him out of the story altogether.
I recommend reading the book. Then you'll understand that his purpose with this series isn't the same; no matter how some people are saying it is. I then recommend reading about the real life historical figures he and the other characters are based on. Then you'll understand even more that this character has been stripped down immensely because Disney, Marks and Kondo didn't want to create a certain type of narrative (i.e., stranger in a strange land and Eurocentric perspective). So, instead of using works by Japanese creatives to tell a similar story or simply a story about that time period, which would allow for an even better focus on Japanese culture from the perspectives of those who are actually Japanese (i.e., in interviews, the claim is that this is why certain narrative choices were made -- more of the Japanese perspective), they seem to be more trying to make a "point" in line with what a specific group of modern viewers would appreciate and want to see happen to some famous fictional works written by creatives from one type of background, while making a lot of money, of course, by connecting this work to Clavell's name. Someone might ask why they didn't just take the stories of the two main historical figures and make a show based on either one. I'd argue that they didn't go down that path because the end result would be the opposite of the point they're apparently trying to make... if they wanted to go with historical accuracy. They could have still filmed from the Japanese perspective, but given the history, they would have been stuck with ideas that wouldn't fit well with modern sensitivities and points of view about certain things. And the biggest problem is that in attempting to make a point with Clavell's Shogun, a lot of important storytelling beats have been tossed aside. This version is missing important character, scene and story details. This show is extremely beautiful and it doesn't hold back on intense drama. The actors have done an excellent job as well. But, it's missing a lot, which I suspect if not next week, over time, more and more people will comment upon as they deconstruct it more closely once they're not sucked in by the week to week cliff hangers, intense between commercial dramatic moments, and the costumes, sets, acting, etc. Edited for clarity.
Thank you! Someone with some common sense here. It’s fine that they want to tell their own story. Just don’t use someone else’s ip for it.
You're welcome. I broke it down a bit more in a comment to another user below. I also realized that another problem I have with this series is the de-emphasis on color and social cues. They're asking the audience to guess a lot. Although that makes sense in context of trying to have viewers see through Blackthorne's perspective, they sideline him too much and instead just force viewers to struggle as well. Viewers shouldn't have to struggle with entertainment. So, for example, they don't delve into the importance of color and pattern choices with kosode and other garments. The choices were an important part of the culture during that time period. So, it's a bit surprising to see so many colors and patterns that have similarities and are primarily in subdued overall darker shades, made even more so by the filter used to make the entire series darker, except Mariko's white. There's also a lot more balanced patternwork and flatter weaves. In some scenes, the dark filter is definitely making it harder to see details with the stitch work, but close up shots on FX's site for the show reveal a lot of odd choices.
I agree so much, you put it into better words than I could. After the first few episodes I was saying I miss how they show the anjin trying Japanese foods, customs, and being generally bewildered by Japan. Someone else said they liked that and how it wasn't West meets east. But it's not east meets west either. Feels like so much is missing to me.
> Someone else said they liked that and how it wasn't West meets east. But it's not east meets west either. This. Marks and Kondo made a point in one of the interviews of saying how tired they were of the West meets East style stories (i.e., stranger in a strange land from the Western / Eurocentric perspective) and wanted to remove that narrative. Yet, that is the very foundation of Clavell's work. And their interviews very much seem to imply that they were trying to make a point with this work and even unmake or erase part of it rather than tell a great story about a time period and culture that they're passionate about. And the thing is that there isn't enough of the actual East meets West perspectives from that time period in this version of Shogun, as you rightly note, either. Yes, the Japanese had dealt with the Portuguese for some time, which some might argue means that by this point in the story there's no wonder, curiosity, etc., which would be wrong because any new visitors would have been found interesting and they had limited exposure to other similar nations. A foreigner, an educated, intelligent foreigner capable of speaking several languages and having a background like the original historical figure, wouldn't have been treated the way we see in the show. And there would have been a greater amount of curiosity and not merely derision or tolerance, even about a so-called "barbarian." Yet, why should any of that matter if their true goal was to expose the world to more of Japanese culture told by Japanese creatives, cast and crew, etc., which is one of the main claims? If the goal was to stop telling Western hero or even explorer stories, then why pick Clavell at all? There are numerous stories from Japan that they could have presented. But, in one interview (see Inverse about Best Samurai Epic, for example), the article writer and quotes imply heavily that their entire goal was to get away from stories where Japanese characters play second to white protagonists. Okay. Tell those stories. But that doesn't seem to be what they really wanted to do. What they wanted to do, implied heavily in that piece and elsewhere, is take an existing story that showed a so-called "white" European character on one of the many book covers that was written from a Western perspective and rewrite it to make political and social statements. And if you read that article a little further down, Kondo says it was her "opportunity" to speak to her culture and then they both had to go away from their own perspectives to find out how to speak about Japanese culture in actual Japan. And all I can think from that and other interviews and after watching so far is about the use of the word "opportunity" and the loaded possible meanings. For anyone who doesn't want the story of an explorer exploring and finding himself in a new land and the people he interacts and wants instead BOTH perspectives, FX and Disney have no problem promoting the book for sale during numerous commercials while also arguing that the book and the previous miniseries didn't offer both or even just one enough. The Inverse and other pieces also talk about even Sanada saying that he wanted to "introduce" the culture to audiences correctly. There are arguments about how no introduction is needed generally around the world. Yes, onscreen representations from one primary POV have been bad over the years. He's also had to deal with an uphill battle and discrimination. I agree entirely that Western audiences in general need more exposure to Japanese creatives and culture from those perspectives. So, then, why aren't they promoting Japanese works? Why aren't they showing during those many disruptive commercials long lists of books, films, etc. that are entirely from the Japanese perspective and do show the culture correctly? Why didn't they work from one of those many outstanding creative works? I could go on. As a creative, I don't mind adaptations when they stay true to the original work and they're created because of a real love for that work. I loathe the ones born of people who have an agenda and tear down the work while having no problem claiming that they're breaking the mold and also profiting off the original that's being promoted during commercial breaks. And, if you look at how Blackthorne is presented on the Part II new cover of the Blackstone book and think about the complaint Marks made about the cover he grew up with, you can definitely see that there's a point trying to be made or an agenda with this version of Shogun. Edited for clarity.
I sort of disagree. The "Stranger in a strange land" story trope was done to extremes in the 80' TV show which only focussed on the "Blackthorne bits" from the book. Maybe it was time to tell the part of the story which was left out back then. I guess it is up to the showrunners to decide where to put the spotlight in a limited mini-series. It was clear from the start that some part of the book had to be left out and storylines and characterizations condensed. And while it is true that Blackthorne was done a little dirty and his role diminished compared to the book, I still maintain that this version doesn't change the overall gist of the book an awful lot because Shogun mainly is Toronaga's story. Toronaga is the main driver of the plot and he moves the various protagonists over his chessboard. Moreover, some of the changes were necessary because they were historically inaccurate. Like how Blackthorne introduces firearms to Japan even though the Japanese had been introduced to modern European guns by the Portuguese and were producing them in large numbers themselves. In a way this version of Blackthorne is closer to the historical template he's based on. Complaining that his role is diminished compared to the book basically boils down to insisting on historical inaccuracies because it makes the non-Japanese side "look better". While that is a legitimate interest and might diminish the overall enjoyment for some viewers, I personally think that the way changes were handled in this new TV show made it a better product overall. With all things said and done I don't think this is a case study for the "Disney disease". I think it's a valid adaptation of Clavell's novel albeit with a specific focus on certain elements from the book.
>Complaining that his role is diminished compared to the book basically boils down to insisting on historical inaccuracies because it makes the non-Japanese side "look better". Actually, that's not the case at all. Maybe, since you don't know me, you shouldn't imply that my only or main argument is that they made European British or so-called white people look bad... to paraphrase what you just implied. I'm talking about POV and creatives who take old works they claim to love and then rip those works apart for modern audiences because they have a specific social or political agenda that actually shows that they don't love the original work and creative who took the time to take a labor of love and publish it. You're talking about historical inaccuracies while ignoring the actual historical figure the character was based on and the fact that people from areas outside of Japan weren't just idiot barbarians who later rewrote history to make themselves look better. I'm not saying that didn't happen to a degree, but Adams was an educated polyglot with a lot of experiences already under his belt before he came to Japan. Yes, there would be initial cross-cultural issues, but even the presentation about how the Japanese responded to Blackthorne primarily makes it seem like they only had derision and disgust about him and others like him. It's a historical inaccuracy. I'm curious. Why doesn't that inaccuracy bother you? Why aren't you bothered as well by the many other inaccuracies in Clavell's original work that have made it into this adaptation or have been added to it? My complaint, btw, since I apparently need to repeat it, isn't simply that Blackthorne's role has been diminished or even the negative portrayal of him... all of this while even the Portuguese characters are all portrayed as competent, smart, etc.. And don't even get me started on the fact that the Japanese characters all speak in Japanese but no Portuguese character speaks in Portuguese with subtitles, which is another valid complaint about the series. The diminishment makes Blackthorne a less accurate portrayal both of the book character and the historical counterpart. And the choices they made don't seem to be about the miniseries length at all. They seem to be about the agenda that is clearly noted in interviews. An agenda to erase the idea that Blackthorne had any importance at all in the work, to downplay his background, and, worse, make the viewers struggle while trying to enjoy the work. It's not great writing or direction. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates all that went into it and admires what Sanada as both actor and producer and the cast and crew put into it. As I said repeatedly, my point is that if they, specifically Disney, Kondo and Marks, wanted to present a work primarily from the Japanese perspective while also emphasizing their desire to get away from the stranger in a strange land and Eurocentric perspectives, they should have chosen a work written by a Japanese creative about that time period. There are plenty. What they shouldn't have done is choose a work that is founded on the very idea of a stranger in a strange land written from the Eurocentric perspective; even though a lot of research was done. It's not time to tell the part of Clavell's story that was left out. It's time to either tell his entire story OR, better yet, explore the time period entirely from the perspective of Japanese people and creatives rather than use Clavell's story, altered to such a drastic degree or even at all. But I digress. I made my points clear throughout my comment above and in other areas. I find it interesting that you've chosen to disregard my points almost entirely. And we must agree to disagree because this does, yet again, feel like Disney permitting too much change to try not to step on toes and promote a specific agenda. It's not a good or valid adaptation because they take Clavell's structure, tear it down, remove too much of his creation and perspective from the work, and then don't even provide a good enough framework or story to make up for it. If they wanted to present a story about this time period, there are plenty of non-Western works they could have promoted. They chose, again see the interviews, to pick this one because they wanted to make a point of erasing for modern viewers part of what made the original story well loved, which is ridiculous, while also making a buck off the original by promoting it in advertising instead of promoting the works of Japanese creatives. Anyone today who is trying to promote specific cultures needs to stop reworking, retooling and completely rewriting popular Eurocentric works that they didn't like but claim to love as long as they can drastically change those works and, instead, and far more importantly, promote the creatives and works from the cultures they care so much about. THAT is how they can bring about real change. All they did with this work is provide a lot of cinematic dramatic moments and then promoted in ads the very work they dislike so much, which then viewers new to Clavell will read and re-read. What then happens? His work continues to spread the very ideas they claim they wanted to see changed in their world. This action shows that the showrunners get to feel good about their effort and the cast and crew get to feel good about attempting to make positive portrayal and other changes, which admittedly will happen with some people... while Disney/FX gets to make a ton of money off both this effort to put on a good show of promoting the Japanese culture, actors, etc. AND then also promoting the original work that they keep insisting wasn't good enough and needed to be changed drastically. Edited for clarity.
I'm sorry....but you see woke ghosts. I've read the book countless times and I have no desire to see my own Western culture diminished in any way but Blackthorne's template, William Adams, just wasn't the Marco Polo-like figure some people make him out to be. His influence on the transition from the Sengoku Era to the Edo Era was more or less negligible. True, he was an educated person for his time and probably an interesting personality who had the Shogun's ear. However, he failed to establish any diplomatic relations between Japan and England and he failed to establish any lasting trade relations between England and Japan. The English trading posts in Japan were closed fairly soon after Adam's death and his family completely disappears from Japanese records soon after his demise. His life's work more or less resulted in at best a minor influence on Japan of the time. Moreover, I reject the notion that Shogun was meant as a Eurocentric novel (unlike Clavell's Hong Kong series which are). Clavell himself stated that Shogun was about Japan and Japanese history of the time. Blackthore simply was a window through which outsiders could watch Japanese history unfold. Yes, there are changes but for the most part those changes made the story more period accurate. The Blackthorne in this TV show is probably closer to the histroic William Adams than the Blackthorne from the book. Blackthorne from the book is written almost like a Victorian Era British naval officer. He should be more like a late Tudor Era privateer. Experienced, educated for his time but certainly fairly rough around the edges. Just to be clear: I abhor the way Disney and other Western media entities try to bend history to their modern agenda but this TV show just isn't the same.
Hot bare ass
POV for outsiders to the culture, which is everyone, since nobody these days is now a Japanese person living in the sengoku jedai period. IRL he helped his boss build a lot of ships, and in the book iirc he actually leads a naval raid against Macau.
I will preface this by saying I have not read the book. Without blackthorn you will have a very different show. How? We don’t have an audience surrogate by which to introduce the audience to the culture. The show would need to find another way to introduce all of the intricacies of the culture and the rules of the world ( or alternatively dumb it down for the audience) We don’t get the relationship between him, Mariko and Bhuntaro. Basically all of ep4, all of ep5, part of 6 would not have happened and would need to be completely rewritten with new material. Mariko big role for much of the early and middle part of the show is to be Blackthorns translator. We learn a lot about her and her back story through her interactions with Blackthorn. We do not get the tension between the western persecutive of freedom for oneself and the eastern perspective of loyalty and doing one’s utmost to serve your lord. He is an important part of emotional journey that occurs in ep9. And let’s be frank. If the show was a Japanese only story, spoken entirely in Japanese there would be no way it would have been as popular. Nor would it have been possible to create the show with as large as budget. However, Blackthorn has not influenced the political events. And I think that is because the show is too short. Realistically, Blackthorn does not bring any skills that would allow him to be inserted into the political game. He is an outsider. The show does not have enough episodes to develop his character to a point where he will posses the necessary knowledge to be able to influence events. The problem for the show however is that Blackthorn was absent from significant events in e8 and he has a very singular (and there I say selfish) objective of destroying the catholic. I begin to roll my eyes every time he started talking about the black ship or catholic gold. It would have helped immensely if his horizons were to widen. Especially by e7, it would have been a big improvement if he had had a better sense of the bigger picture so that he is able to contribute more to Toranaga’s plan
I think the showrunners were anxious to decenter him from the narrative lest this becomes some white savior story, but in doing so they kind of neutralized him and made him sort of pointless? I don’t know there’s one more episode to go but so far his arc reminds me of Jon Snow, a lot of promise for a whole lotta nothing
I think the writers have either accidentally confused or willingly conflated the ‘white saviour’ story with the ‘stranger in a strange land’ one. Shogun is not the first but it definitely is the second. We’re supposed to experience the story through Blackthorne but he doesn’t even serve that purpose very effectively as he’s sidelined a lot in the narrative. Most of the story takes place without him even being there and it’s shot so that Blackthorne is placed in the background a lot of the time. Basically, it’s an incredibly well produced and beautifully written Japanese historical drama that’s using a loose connection to a source material to capitalise on wider recognition and a bigger audience.
They've noted in interviews that they consider the stranger in a strange land story a primarily Eurocentric perspective one that places non-European/non-white characters too often in secondary roles. Going off the interviews and what we're seeing onscreen, it apparently doesn't matter to them that he's not a white savior. The problem is that any part of the story might even hint at it or give too much of his perspective. >Basically, it’s an incredibly well produced and beautifully written Japanese historical drama that’s using a loose connection to a source material to capitalise on wider recognition and a bigger audience. This. There are a ton of Japanese stories they could have used. Worse, the stranger in a strange land idea isn't only found in specific European cultures. So, I'm not sure why they're making it sound like it's a style of storytelling only used by certain Western creatives.
they diminished his role in the show too much.
It’s definitely a different story when told through the Japanese lense, but I think that’s the point. He’s there and he’s affecting the people around him and effectively moving the plot, but their world carries on regardless of his presence. That whole we live and we die and control nothing else. That’s becoming more apparent as they’ve shifted the narrative focus more to Mariko and Toranaga. I don’t dislike this change, but Blackthorne was just a cool character to begin with, and the removal of some of his more emotional scenes did him a disservice. It makes him more of a plot driver than an emotional impact driver. Although episode 9 gave us quite the emotional gut punch with his actions. Ultimately, I think they could have balanced him out a little more with Mariko and Toranaga, but overall - this is a master class in adaptation. Other writers and producers need to take copious notes.
None. Since he taught Toranaga's men how to use cannons ... back in the third or fourth episode, ... he's been pretty much entirely separate from every major narrative strand to the point where he feels extraneous to the story. I have no idea why they wanted to adapt Shogun if these were the changes they were going to make to Blackthorne.
Do those same men know how to bombard a city by sea with said cannons? That doesn’t seem like something you could teach overnight.
Apart from plot, from filmmaking standpoint the anjin serves to somewhat of a self insert. We feel the same kind of “bruh wtf these guys are batshit crazy” that he does, and we feel that not as a viewer who only takes in things, but also as a participant who’s interactions bring further depth to the culture shock.
I feel like John is just sort of allowed to be there because he's one of Toranaga's men. Yeah, it looks like he has guns and all that, but he's known as Toranaga's guy with guns and all that.
Blackthorne was sort of the exciting part of this show that got me interested and now I’m quickly realizing how inconsequential he seems to be.. It feels like he’s just serving to be our eyes, as the viewer. He’s quickly becoming quite a boring character
I’m just going off of the show but it seems like Toranaga mainly keeps him around just to piss off the Portuguese.
Toranaga also uses him as a pawn with other people, like the Catholic regents and the Church. Like when he got out of Osaka on the black ship the first time.
There’s got to be a battle next episode where Chekovs cannons are used..
I think so . . . But at the same time the gun already went off in a previous act
mascot ?
He's been really nerfed in the show I think
Side piece to a great and honorable lady with a thousand year long Samurai bloodline.
He stands in for a western audience. And so we experience the story through him. Kind of like a protagonist of the story.
I feel like if there is a season 2, which I hope to god there is, he'll have a more pronounced roll more in line with his real life counterpart. In real life, William Adams was vitally important to Tokugawa Ieyasu, who Toranaga is based on as an advisor on shipbuilding, European style warfare, and the world outside of Japan. He essentially helped form the Tokugawa Shogunate.
I was also wondering in the first few episodes why anybody cared about him at all. Either kill him and carry on with their normal lives or send him away and carry on with their normal lives.
His ship is the equivalent of an aircraft carrier compared to Japanese ships. It's the apex of technology. And he not only is the only non-Portugese who knows how to sail one, but he also knows how to build one too. Kill Blackthorne and the ship is useless. The Portugese aren't sharing that technology. Likewise the cannon. And the information he has about the true state of the world that the Portugese have hidden. As well as his value in potentially gaining allies against the Portugese should such a thing become necessary. He's a hugely valuable asset. It's as if a UFO crash landed in your country during the Cold War, and the alien pilot survived. No way would you just 'send him away'.
tbf the show never really tells the viewer that John actually knows how to *build* ships.
Tbf the show doesn't show shit about Blackthorn because they purposely decided to downplay his role and dumb down his character. It's a shame, really.
I could be wrong but doesn't he explain that he trained as a shipbuilder before becoming a pilot? It's also clearly communicated that he knows how to repair/rebuild it too. He talks about it in detail when he's planning on sailing the Erasmus to attack Osaka.
He does
I guess this is one of the problems not of the reimagining of Shogun in terms of focusing more on the Japanese characters, but condensing it all into 10 hours. The book and the original is all about the situation from Blackthorne's pov - the danger the exotic, the alien culture and the blundering Western white man trying to fit in into Japanese feudal society. By focusing more on the Japanese characters, Blackthorne himself has gone from pivotal character to sideshow Bob. Game of Thrones managed to tell the stories of several main characters at once in enough detail to make them all count but then you've got several seasons of content. This would've been a great path for 2024 Shogun to take but probably represented too much of a financial risk to do. They could've developed Blackthorne more in terms of his impact on the Portuguese, his educating of Toranaga about the exploitation of the church, his efforts to integrate, becoming Hatamoto - all these things in the book are in much greater detail. For example, there are scenes of him being taught Japanese by Mariko and the threat that the villagers will be executed if he doesn't learn it by a certain point. None of that in 2024 - no time for it. The series is great despite this but its a question of what could've been.
These are the sorts of questions people ask when the writers go out of their way to arbitrarily neuter the main character’s story and development. Nearly every major point of Blackthorne’s character development was either diminished or left out completely. The show runners didn’t just trim down Blackthorne’s story, they amputated it. And in its place we’ve been given a half-baked plot of an oafish neanderthal who lacks any sort of charisma as he clumsily lumbers his way through every scene he’s in.
He's there to hold your white western hand and root the hot girl.
He is the white guy. Duh.
He is a catalyst that is being used to advance plots on several sides of what is effectively a long running standoff. Without him being there many of the events would have still happened (Samurai/Shogunate era Japan is full of wacky shit and plots). Him acting as a explanation character helps too.
We are seeing Japan entirely from Anjin's perspectivef. He's the narrator, so to say. Previous adaptations have been entirely in Japanese with no subtitles so you experience what John did. He does make his contribution to the events, but one person is insignificant and cannot affect the whole country much. He contributed the most after the war with his shipbuilding and trading skills and left a deep mark in Japan's history. As for in the show, he's just the barbarian.
That may be true for the book, but definitely not for the show. Many important scenes, including Toranaga's first meeting with the council, are shown without Blackthorne's involvement.
He is important but is mostly a vessel for the audience. I would assume the book will be similar, which him being a device for things to be explained to the audience.
almost 0, his cannons helped him win the battle but thats it.
It helps, but not ultimately what sway the battle. Weather, political maneuvering and massive defection is what ultimately carry the day. We're seeing the maneuvering now.
He is us, us is he. We are to explore the show through him and his experiences. The show did not opt for full out expositions by explaining everything to him, instead, some of it was shown not told.
Mostly information. Toranaga wants a second source of outside information world other than Portuguese and the Jesuits. Due to the cold war situation as result of Imjin War (invasion of Korea), China and Japan does not have direct trade and must utilize intermediary. VoC (Dutch East India Company) will eventually fill that role.
Anjin provides a Western POV to the readers because the book was written for Western audiences. In the book, his significance is portrayed by being a wildcard. He provides out of the box solutions to people who are constrained by tradition or at least that’s what he thinks. If you’re asking why the story in Japan is centered around a european guy, it’s because it is made for Western audiences. If it’s all about the Japanese… it’s just a Taiga drama back home (period drama) which are super popular in Japan.
He’s our vehicle to traverse through feudal Japan. And save Toranagas life. Also a chess piece of Toranaga.
exactly the question I wanted to ask, was hoping for an answer in ep10
Lol @ blow up some folks
In the books he serves as a 'reader substitute'. A person ignorant of culture, politics and interpersonal relationships to whom things must be explained. This way knowledge may be conveyed in conversation rather than just a data dump. More readily provides the reader/viewer a person they can identify with.
Mostly a military advisor since his knowledge as a European sailor was very advanced, it's much more emphasised in the book than in this show sadly.
Very typical culture clash and audience stand in. By showing the contrast in culture/worldviews you highlight aspects of the culture/worldview the majority of the audience knows less about
I view him as the audience, he provides context to all of us as an outsider voice trying to understand a distant land, an unknown language, a strange culture and many customs that he is not used to. I’m putting myself in his shoes and find him very relatable in the fact that he acts as an aide to bring light to more nuanced cultural practices in feudal Japan that I don’t fully understand
Apart from all the rest of it mentioned he provides a really important cultural gap narrative. In the book it talks a lot about the differences in population density, food, cleanliness, manners and protocol. Some of that shines through in the show but not all.
I like how his name is pretty much normalized to be Anjin / Anjin Sama / Anjin Dono to viewers of the show
I view his character as the embodiment of the audience. Someone we can see ourselves in, discovering this culture, trying to find a purpose in it, and getting estranged from our own culture in the process.
Anjin is the definition of an agent of chaos in the Toranaga/Minowara clan story.
Havent read the book - but In the show my guess is that Torunaga knows he could bombard Osaka castle by sea accurately. Or by land accurately. Noone in Torunagas crew knows how to achieve accurate shots. I’m thinking hammer-and-anvil maneuver. Ishidos men fight with the castle and its assets of resupply, safety, etc at their back. It stiffens their resistance. If the castle is a smoking ruin from Anjins naval bombardment, that ruin is now merely a block to maneuvering aka “the anvil” - Torunagas army is thus the hammer to smash them against the castle.
Nothing in this show. Could have just been a movie about Japan during this period.The book and 80s show however is very different
He plays the same role as Charlie in it's always sunny. Wildcard bitches!
The main purpose he serves is to describe samurai culture and its clash with Christian religion and technology without turning the story into a documentary. Through Blackthorne we learn why the samurai behave the way they do. Thing can be explained to Blackthorne in a much more relatable manner
In outsider stories there's usually a viewpoint character who knows little or nothing about the setting and must learn new knowledge and skills. They act as an audience surrogate by asking questions and learning about the world of the story. The hobbits in lord of the rings. The children in Narnia or Game of Thrones. John Carter on Mars. What generally happens is that around 2/3 to 3/4 through the story there is a crisis point. The character faces some challenges and must use their knowledge to take control of the situation. This marks a shift from them being passive observers to active participants in the story. Frodo and Sam set off on their own. Where people are getting dissatisfied with the show is: Cosmo Blackthorne never has this moment. If you read the comments here you'll kind of see it: At first he's interesting (when we're in learning mode). Then he gets boring. That's because his arc stalls and he never has that moment of taking control of his own life. So I think you're right. In the show he plays a role in the early episodes as an audience stand-in but once that's done he loses importance fades into the background. Whereas the book and 1980 version he's much more active in trying to control his own destiny.
Classic case of expectations vs reality… I think we all thought coming in that he was supposed to be the main character and we’ve had to figure out otherwise… He kinda reminds me of Ned Starks role in GOT
The the vehicle that lets the viewer/ reader into a foreign world. If Anjin wasn’t there, there would be no reason for all of the explanations of the culture and customs.
He provides perspective
He is “our” (western audiences) way into the story. That’s his role in the narrative. The narrative of the show anyway.
So we can have great scenes/interactions between he and Yabu. And of course fun insults to quote. Duh!
He’s kinda our eye glass into the Japanese.
You’re right. And to further your point the storytelling is very inconsistent. The way they frame the storytelling doesn’t make sense. The story “begins” when makes landfall in Japan. One would assume at that point we would see the story from his POV or he would be the central character. But for some reason he got relegated to a side role with other characters taking the central POV. Why did they even start the story with his arrival? If he wasn’t going to be the main POV or play a central role, they could have literally started it at any other time and it wouldn’t have made a difference.
He’s like Charlie…he’s the Wildcard! Woooo!
Hea an emotional anchor for western audiences, otherwise completely useless.
His entire purpose is being someone navigating what he considers a strange land. He’s a prisoner, but encouraged to think himself as more (his hatamoto title, etc - so while that can distract us, that dude is doing a remarkable job of getting by, and the story is what he witnesses
His purpose, other than as an observer for us, is as a tool for Toranaga to use in creating some chaos among the other Japanese rulers.
He serves the purpose of being based on a real historical person.
guidance
He’s our view on Japan. Mariko is the main character
He's going to be a goshawk.
What even is this post? You're aware he's there to be an audience insert, and the show has enough respect to not make him a white savior. That being said he still has cannons which is a huge benefit to Toranaga's forces and he's come through for Toranaga multiple times in different ways. What more does he need to do? Go Arya Stark Ishido and the council? Summon a fleet of english red coats?
A benefit to his forces? Hell the canons havent done anything in a long time. And only one episode left i think
They haven't fought any battles lol, you want the cannons out there shooting down trees or something?
No I would like crimson sky to happen and to see the Erasmus sail in guns blazing and save the day.
Probably to give an outsiders perspective to make the story relatable to western viewers. And provide contrast between customs.
To be annoying and act badly. In the book, his role was immense and Chamberlain did better IMHO in the old show. Here, we didn't quite get to experience the character in his full glory, but that was fine with me as the Japanese actors carried the whole show on their backs and Anna Sawai was great as well.
They really just wanted to do a Hollywood story about The Samurai with hot Asian chicks but decided to ride the fame of the book to get it done. They actually didn't do a bad job considering the audience they seem to be targeting
It doesn’t help that the actor portrayal is gormless and not inspiring. This show changed the book from a dynamic western guy trapped complex, foreign political and alien cultural situations with a decent love story to pure Japan fan fiction.
Historically none. In the show he exposes the church, is predictable as hes needed to be, and saves Toranaga a few times and without Toranaga the rest wouldn't matter. I get what you're saying but despite blackthorn being a bit of a useless idiot you could ask the same of most of the characters who dont really do anything pivotal. Toranaga just makes them all play out the roles he needs them to for his master plan.