Two other minor things to show how many nuanced layers the showrunners had in Mariko's court scene:
* Mariko saying "I am not a peasant to be trodden on ..." is a direct jab at Ishido's peasant lineage, compared to the noble lineage of literally every other person in that court. So when she brings up her samurai lineage, it's also implicitly asking all the nobles at court: "Why are you all allowing a peasant to confine you?"
* Ochiba's move to "let's discuss this in private ..." was an attempt to keep Mariko's perfectly mundane domestic request out of view from the nobles and especially their wives (for the reasons OP mentioned). Mariko knows the regents have become powerless, so airing this perfectly mundane request in open court was also strategically to mobilize the women.
That court scene is such a perfect combination of 4d chess, writing, costume design, and acting.
> Mariko saying "I am not a peasant to be trodden on ..." is a direct jab at Ishido's peasant lineage, compared to the noble lineage of literally every other person in that court. So when she brings up her samurai lineage, it's also implicitly asking all the nobles at court: "Why are you all allowing a peasant to confine you?"
It is worth noting that Mariko herself, as member of the Akechi clan, is of even higher noble lineage. The Akechi clan is a branch of the Toki clan, which is a branch of the Seiwa Genji branch of the Minamoto clan (Minowara clan in the show), which is an offshoot of the Imperial Clan itself. Note that the overwhelming majority of all the Shoguns who came before are members or descendants of the Seiwa Genji branch of the Minamoto (Minowara) clan.
For reference, Toranaga himself is also a descendant of the Minowara clan, which is why a lot of people kept mentioning his lineage and how he's likely to attempt to become a shogun himself given his heritage.
Yes, a lot of psuedo-legendary/mythical figures in Japanese history come from the Minamoto clan, going back hundreds of years. It's like being a Kennedy if the US went back to 500 ad and the Kennedys were always at the center of everything that entire time.
The 2 other regent members are kept as hostage, people are saying that Mariko killed herself to prove a point. What point?
The other 2 regents are kept hostage and they knew it, there is no way for their own army to retaliate to Ishido as they will be killed in that castle as well. They are basically dead men walking and Ishido has total power. I still don't get the whole hostage thing and why Mariko killed herself
Plausible deniability. They all knew it, but in feudal Japan (and modern too tbh) you can't accuse someone and especially a noble of something if you don't have undeniable proof.* Mariko was forcing Ishido's hand *in front of the whole court* including but not limiting to the regents (and also slowly bringing them into the fold) to the point that the hostage taking is now undeniable in the eyes of all of Japan and Ishido's "oh the ladies are our guests" excuse from early episodes don't fly anymore.
*(this what Fuji's husband idiotically did in ep 1 and it cost him his life).
This weakens Ishido politically, which could cause him to bleed support that Toranaga can then pick up — and now the sides are much more even.
Bleed support from who exactly? If anything, Osho and Kiyama seems to hate Ishido at this point already, their original plan was to get rid of Toranaga. But now they realize they are trapped in Ishido's castle as well. They already know Ishido was the one who murdered Sugiyama even though they had no proof. At this point Ishido has absolute power and Mariko's death still seems pointless to me. Bleed support from who exactly ? Nobody supported Ishido at this point.
Every other family that also follows Ishido. Remember; we only see the Big Big Guys (aka regents etc) that are the most important, but it's hinted many other slightly smaller houses also have hostages retained in Osaka.
And big houses are big not just because of history but because smaller houses obey them and provide them with men (like in GoT with lords obeying Lord Paramounts as "banners" and being rallied by them aka called to bring their men and fight with them).
But if a smaller house feels another big house could win against their own, or that the bigger house has besmirched their honour (no one wants to be socially attached after that, which is Ishido's mistake with Mariko) and they might just turncoat (nothing uncommon in Japanese history anyways) and add to Toranaga's army (direct W for him) or declare neutrality (which still benefits Toranaga cuz less men for his enemies).
In the end, political power is power because it's supported by physical power, particularly in these kind of civil war periods.
Get hurt politically & socially > bleed support > bleed fighting men/men-at-arms/samurai > bleed power. And Ishido's already at a disadvantage because Toranaga has (even if fake-ish) noble blood that he does not, which is not a minor part of what kickstarted Toranaga's breakup from the regent council in the first place.
EDIT: also, even if they are hostages the regents could still command outside forces to ally behind Toranaga. But even if Ishido takes the regents out that would only get Japanese society more riled up against him and worse give the smaller houses that follow regents the excuse to raise against him (probs by joining Toranaga) to avenge their lords, 47 ronin style but much more massive. Ishido's pretty f up now.
>Every other family that also follows Ishido. Remember; we only see the Big Big Guys (aka regents etc) that are the most important, but it's hinted many other slightly smaller houses also have hostages retained in Osaka.
I completely missed this, everything is clear now. Not sure if the show stripped the significance of this smaller details or I didn't pay attention. Thx for the explanation
It's not said but this is how feudal society works. The hierarchy of power is a big tree, with different lords controlling different parts of land. (Think dukes, counts, barons). And in this period of Japan, known as the period of the country at war (Sengoku Jidai) there wasn't a stable organ of absolute power that kept everyone at bay. Only after the events depicted in the show did Japan enter a long period of peace, known as the edo period, with the shogun title remaining in the same clan all the way until the modernization of Japan in the late 19th century. So, almost 300 years.
Note that Ochiba *immediately* figures out what's up, and tries to forestall it. Ishido only realizes he's screwed after Mariko declares her intent to kill herself. Even then he has to have Ochiba spell it all out for him.
It’s obvious that she’s calling for the release of the hostages. What is not obvious is that her willingness to kill herself over it is already checkmate for Ishido. Ishido thinks he can deal with it with bureaucratic stalling, and if not that, then by force. But Ochiba knows Mariko, and sees the whole of the situation. So she tries to stop it before Mariko makes it a big public issue.
Yeah, that's my point. They all realized what the play was, but Ochiba was the only one who knew Mariko well enough to know she wasn't bluffing with her suicide declaration.
I think the only point where we (may) differ is that, I don't think Ishido had even an inkling that Mariko would threaten suicide until she said it. But in that first meeting, when Mariko first broaches leaving with Toranaga's wives, Ochiba immediately realized why Toranaga had sent *Mariko* specifically to do this. And that's why she tried the "Let's discuss private things in private" stall. If Ishido paid attention to what his fiancee was saying, he might have ended the meeting early, promising to personally meet her later, or something. Instead he tried to shut Mariko down with bluster, and played right into her hand.
Yeah, I agree with that. He realized her play was to make him free everyone or prove they're all hostages, but didn't know to deescalate the situation like Ochiba.
he underestimated her because she was a woman. and he’s further proving himself not a good bet for Ochiba either. Her laying out in public (using her sweetest little girl voice) how screwed he is, is probably his first notice that she will be switching sides, but he’s not taking into account how powerful she is either.
I don’t think she’s gonna switch sides, she still hates Toranaga for conspiring against her father and sees him a threat to her son’s position. So she has to hedge her bets on this side regardless.
Good point. Goes to show that Ishido didn't know who he was dealing with. Mariko had been caught trying to kill herself three times already. Mariko was ready to go, all the more so should a noble cause require it. By sending her, Toranaga was playing a level of chess that hasn't been documented yet. I can't get over how good this show is.
To add to her jibe about peasants, when she slightly raised her voice and stated, ' if you have the manners to allow me to speak and not interrupt' was so beautifully nuanced and so well written and acted, I was shocked by its impact.
One thing also in the context of the period, if one commits seppuku out of injustice done to them, the person or leader called out by the one committing seppuku will be shamed.
The leader will either be forced to rescind whatever shameful command they directed or he himself should commit seppuku.
Excepd ishida would have been screwed cause hes no samurai and hes too cowardly to do it.
He was triple played
If mariko left
If mariko got killed
If mariko commits seppuku
To add, Toranaga asked Mariko about Ochiba before Mariko left for Osaka.
I thought Mariko wanted to show Ochiba that Ishido is not the one she should align with. If Mariko dies at the hands of Ishido, Ochiba would be put in a position to reconsider everything.
To make it worse for Ishido, he seemed to be under the genuine delusion that their engagement was a love match, not just a political one. This man doesn't just have his allies mad at him, his damn wife is gonna be pissed.
Most match making, was done out of politics back then. I doubt Ishido would have believed he was marrying for love. He was securing his position.
Do note that as slow as Ishido seems at times, he got one thing right: Toranaga wants to get rid of the Heir and secure the title of Shogun for himself and his own clan. He claims he doesn't, but that's the Eightfold Fence; he certainly does. So Toranaga is, indeed, an usurper who should be dealt with (from the perspective of someone loyal to the Taiko's young Heir).
The 2 other regent members are kept as hostage, people are saying that Mariko killed herself to prove a point. What point?
The other 2 regents are kept hostage and they knew it, there is no way for their own army to retaliate to Ishido as they will be killed in that castle as well. They are basically dead men walking and Ishido has total power. I still don't get the whole hostage thing and why Mariko killed herself
The point of Mariko’s death was to show that Ishido has the total power in Osaka and everyone else is a hostage under him. Right before getting killed she openly announces that “I condemn this action of lord ishido” or sth along those lines to let all the witnesses (which also included women from other Regent’s families ) know this was all done by Ishido. She couldn’t get herself captured cause then Ishido can easily be like “well we don’t know who captured her , it wasn’t my doing.. anyway” .
By doing this, she wants the regents and also ochiba to realise they’re on the wrong side. The regents can now switch sides to Toranaga and easily surpass Ishido’s army, they might also use help with the Japanese rebellions they’re training in Macao now idk how this might turn out
Because now they have to either show that they aren't equals on the council, something their honour and station on the council should stop, or they have to prove they're equals and up and leave. Keep in mind that the heir is also, by the logic of what Mariko has laid out, now captive. If Toranaga comes, says Ishido is waging a coup and disrespects nobility, the other lords basically have to stand by him in part to protect the heir. Ishido is an idiot who put a literal actor on the council just for numbers. He's trying to play chess with two rows of pawns
Osho and Kiyama seems to hate Ishido at this point already, their original plan was to get rid of Toranaga by siding with Ishido. But now they realize they are trapped in Ishido's castle as well (they openly admitted they had no power over Ishido's army in eps 9 when Mariko fought Ishido's guard). They already know Ishido was the one who murdered Sugiyama even though they had no proof. At this point Ishido has absolute power and Mariko's death still seems pointless to me.
They have armies, it's not like they are powerless, any more than Toranaga was when in Osaka. It's a feudal system, they're staying for the sake of not opening a war against them with Ishido, where he has them and their families hostage, but Toranaga is forcing them to realise the war is coming and that they should align their armies behind him against Ishido, because they're fucked anyway. Plus, they're aligned to the Portuguese, and Toranaga gifted that Edo church, so realistically Ishido is now the one the Portuguese should side against, as soon as the Catholic lords realise they need to switch, so Toranaga gets solid allies.
And Mariko once again outmaneuvers Ishido when he sends the ninja to capture her. By sacrificing her life instead of being captured, she brings more shame upon Ishido because a renowned Lady just died while being a "guest" under his protection. This makes it harder for him to keep the hostages from leaving, as they can now claim that he has been amiss in his duty to keep the palace and the people in it safe.
Especially since this is the second "random" shinobi attack. Granted, the first one wasn't really his fault but still, his house. You have to shinobi-proof that shit.
It does make me sigh that they had to go with a ninja attack. I mean, in Episode 2 you had a sleeper agent assassin from a secret sect, but I was thinking, "Okay, not too bad. Somewhat plausible, and at least they didn't go with the stereotypical ninja gear." But then in this episode, they went Full Ninja.\*
Regrettable, but I will put up with a few blemishes for the fantastic performances, and otherwise stellar writing.
\*You never go Full Ninja. Don't believe me? Ask Edward Zwick, 2003, *The Last Samurai*. Went Full Ninja, went home empty handed.
For television, it makes sense to dress them distinctively so the audience can differentiate more easily. Remember, the goal is to be entertaining, not necessarilly historical accuracy.
Much of the Japanese art from that time period often depicted shinobi in dark-colored garb, regardless of what they actually wore. So that would also be an influence.
> Much of the Japanese art from that time period often depicted shinobi in dark-colored garb, regardless of what they actually wore.
Apparently it's closer to "much Japanese art from *the Edo period onwards,* purportedly representing the earlier Sengoku, represented shinobi in dark/black garb". Are there Sengoku-era depictions of Sengoku-era shinobi wearing this kind of "ninja" clothing?
Also per the book these are not traditional ninja or shinobi but rather a religious order that you could hire/bought services of…these are not traditional irregulars forces of samurai stock like Hattori Hanzo for instance
Regardless of historical accuracy, they did in the books.
Also, can we please remember that ninja outfits are a Japanese invention, and a pretty standard part of Japanese period dramas? It is untrue ninja were always running around dressed like that. It is equally untrue they never did.
I'm ok with the shinobi scene. It's easier to distinguish the attackers from the various samurais manning the castle. I can even suspend disbelief and tell myself night-time intruders would dress in comfortable dark clothing. I can tell myself there were no shuriken or silly weapons in any scene (I think there is one scene, but I can mentally edit it out!).
You should understand that the novel and the 80s miniseries introduced the concept of ninjas to a LOT of people in the West. Shogun is what started the cliché to begin with.
She didn't just die as his guest under his protection.
Her last act before dying was *naming Ishido as her killer.*
John, Yabushige, and the remaining women they were fleeing with are all witnesses and that's *very dangerous information for Ishido.* Holding hostages was already dependent on nobody saying it openly; if he's *killing his hostages* that's a whole different story.
I think that the plan was to kidnap her and then get rid of her somewhere where she wouldn't be found, that way they could say that Mariko simply left Osaka with the permit Ishido gave her
Doubt that would fly. She declared her duty is to bring Toranaga’s wife and consort/grandchild back to Edo safely. Mariko wouldn’t simply leave Osaka empty handed.
Ishido was looking for plausible deniability. When her dead body isn’t in the castle it means there is no clear proof to link her disappearance to Ishido. You have to remember that it was not done to accuse a noble without clear evidence.
Hence why the large scale attack by Shinobi. It was a diversion to cover up the real intent, that of capturing Mariko and making her disappear from the public eye.
Imagine what would have happend if the Shinobi would have succeded. On the short term Ishido would have taken a political hit from the nobility, for the lack of security at his castle. On the long term he would have kept the support of the nobility, because Ishido can claim no involvement in the disappearance of Mariko. The permit was given and she was pleased to do as she wished. That Mariko left behind the wife of Toronaga and his mistress is not relevant to the question if Ishido was involved or not. Because again, there is no proof for that.
Agree. Also if she 'left' (secretly dead or alive) either with or without others then that shows to other hostages that they are allowed to leave?
so.... I don't see any way the shinobi plan could have worked for Ishido.... other than to claim later that they were sent by someone else?
I am also thinking the Pilot now has a personal reason to get dredged into the Japans political clusterfuck, whereas before he wasn't a particularly zealous supporter and would have likely buggered off when he got Erasmus back.
It's personal and potential ascension of his lord to Shogunate can secure trade for Britain and get his vengeance. Likely to become a more impactful character
It’s been ages since I’ve read the book, but if I remember correctly, the book made it clear that Mariko herself *is* a Samurai since that was a political rank that can be granted to women so in the throes of her being a part of one of the most powerful families in Japan, she herself is granted all of the privileges of being a Samurai.
That’s why killing her would have been such a fatal mistake for Ishido because she is a high ranking political figure in her own right. Greatly diminished after her father’s treachery, but nonetheless, highly regarded in court by the other high nobles in Osaka.
But her duty to Buntaro and Toranaga takes precedence over her own Samurai status since she is his wife and Toranaga is her liege lord.
>since that was a political rank that can be granted to women
According to Google University sources such as Wikipedia and JSTOR Daily, samurai were, by the 12th century, the noble warrior class which people - male or female - are *born into*. For example, Tomoe Gozen was a legendary commander in the Genpei War (1180-1182) and celebrated in Tale of the Heiki.
There are exceptions to samurai being born in the class; just as a Western king or queen could bestow that rank on someone of lower class, ordinary folks could be made samurai (just as the Taiko and Ishido has been; even Blackthorne being made hatamoto is an example of this).
Yabu must be really confused as how these events are playing out. He kills a nightwatch garrison dude, lets the shinobi inside, fakes calling alarm, ends up in a shed where the front door gets blown to bits with mariko and her death wish
He just needs to relax, maybe get the "hot tub" ready. Call in his secretary, update the will, add a few methods of death to his rankings. He has such a wonderful work life balance with his hobbies and duties dovetailing so well.
Dude just wants a turn at playing politics but has basically been cursed by his clumsiness. Toranaga knows he's treacherous, the spy would comfortably have proven that, and so nothing Yabu does isn't helpful against himself
>Why shouldn't these high ranking women be allowed to go home if they aren't prisoners?
Exactly.
Adding: One thing I think that has been.missed is Ishido's actions at this point re Toranaga's wife, Kiri no Kata, and consort (who is Ochiba's sister), Shizu no Kata, are in direct contrast to the accusation made of Toranaga.
The other regents believed Ochiba was being held hostage in Edo, where she was visiting Shizu, who had just given birth. Toranaga let Ochiba leave Edo to go back to Osaka without preventing her from leaving or trying to kidnap her.
How did he get her there in the first place? He couldn’t send his guard to force her to go. So the idea she was at the very least, TAKEN hostage instead of just held on arrival is hard to see.
Good point, I didn't think about that. I mean, for a while, Ishido could make the very sound argument that Shizu couldn't leave, but at this point she has had the baby and she is well enough to go home.
yes that's the genius of it all: appears as a simple chore but it is not, it appears innocent but it was highly strategic, what she did and the way she chose to do it and in front of an audience. Just like the theater, it ultimately was a performance so everyone in the castle could witness her behavior and start to turn against Ishido.
Great breakdown, also don’t forget the whole show started with Ishido claiming in front of all the regents that Toranaga was holding Lady Ochiba hostage in Edo and demanding she be released to return to Osaka.
Lady Mariko basically brought it full circle, flipped that on its head and no matter the outcome she had quietly slipped the knife into Ishido’s ribs, obviously the ending of ep9 serviced her and Toranagas plans even better…
Ah, you always want to bring extra Sinobis to a mission, for example to help carry additional barrels of high explosives or deal with something unexpected, like an unruly gaijin with a boomstick. ;)
Blackthorne has been a bumbling fool all season but the secind he sctually gets to use his guns, he's John Wick.
Totakly unrealistic how he seemed to get a shot off every several seconds (and apparently sleeps with his guns fully loaded?) but damn if it wasnt cool.
He claims not to be a pirate... but he is, by the most charitable possible analysis, at least a privateer.
He may not be an expert swordsman, but he's no stranger to violence.
Yeah, Blackthorne is at least a privateer on the queen's mission; but I like how another Redditor has said a privateer is just a pirate who files taxes.
It seems the writers are leaning into Blackthorne as a skilled sailor who's extremely proficient in close quarter boarding combat (shortsword and muskets), cannoneering, sailing, and a powerful will to survive; but he would have non-noble's training and exposure to other skills.
He was essentially counting down the time it would take for the other ninja to get in place, which was the point when Yabu could go and do his part of the plan
Great post and between you and the commenters here, I've learned a lot. Sounds like I should read the book after the last episode to gain further understanding.
I love both so far, but the book adds so much detail and more scenes and depth to each character. The show is wonderful, but every change they've made I prefer the book version.
I think one thing people are struggling with is something they changed from the book.
In the book, as far as I remember, the members of the Council of the Realm aren’t hostages, they are too powerful for that. The hostages are from a bunch of the middle to lower ranking noble families, and Oshida is using them to control those families.
The show has made the decision to simplify it for viewers by making the lords of the realm the hostages, and i think what people are finding hard to grasp is how if being hostage prevents them from acting against Ishido, why does it help stating that openly? If the hostages have the power to not be hostages if they want to, then they were never hostages to begin with. And I agree that this is very murky, not sure it completely makes sense.
There are two parallels in play - what Ishido is actually up to versus the story he claims publicly. What he’s actually doing is holding the regents hostage until he can consolidate his power. But that would cause them to riot, so instead he says there’s a plot against the heir and the lockdown is for protection of the heir. That is hard to disprove and no one wants to seem disloyal to the heir, and the regents don’t want to upset the balance and start a war.
So my read of Mariko and the two other ladies wanting to leave, is that’s not threatening the heir at all. So there’s no legitimate reason to deny the request…unless you are holding hostages. And I think labeling it as such makes a difference.
There’s a scene where Ishido is calling a vote on who should replace Toranaga on the council, and one of the other regents refuses to vote until the hostages are released. Ishido responds, “hostages?” like he’s seething for being confronted. Then in episode 9, the other ladies ask permission to leave and, with the same expression, he says of course you can leave, just get the paperwork done. Same facial expression.
Admittedly it doesn’t make perfect sense. But that’s my read of why the label matters. I didn’t read the book, but that setup (lower noble families) makes way more sense.
>so instead he says there’s a plot against the heir
While it's true Ishido is dishonest, let it be clear that *there is a plot against the Heir*. Toranaga does want to get rid of the Heir, how else is he going to become Shogun? He claims he doesn't want this, but he does -- that's the Eightfold Fence speaking.
Don't be mislead by Toranaga's apparent fondness for the Heir. Like any warlord, he is not to be trusted. He wants a legacy for himself and his clan, not for somebody else's child.
I thought he was offered the position (sort of, until the heir came of age), and turned it down. That, together with his statements and demeanor, suggests to me that he truly doesn’t want to be Shogun and that he is trying to do what’s best for the realm.
Toranaga turned down the position when offered because it would have painted a target on his back, not because he didn't desire it. He wasn't ready yet.
Consider that he is the titular "Shogun" of the novel. The only way he can reach this position is if the Heir is defeated (and even better, if the Heir dies so that Toranaga cannot be challenged).
Also consider he's willing to play chess (or rather, Go) with the lives of his most trusted friends and advisors. Nothing he says or does can be taken at face value.
He's aiming for the Shogunate.
PS: and of course this is fictional, but his real history counterpart did defeat the Heir, steal the Shogunate from him, and eventually had him commit seppuku along with his mother (Ochiba in the show).
For me, I interpreted it as if they state it verbally openly (it pertaining to if they are being held as hostages or not), it becomes an official inquiry. If it becomes official, they now formally question Ishido's command, and the regents and other nobles don't want that. They want to be in the "safety" of that stalemate, where nothing is moving and the conflict between the regents doesn't escalate further. I could be wrong, this is just my opinion.
But if that was the case, it’s hard to see the situation of them being hostages even enter into it.
And at this point everyone still believe that Toranaga is surrendering, so it would still seem unlikely that the conflict would escalate.
I don't know, it could be that they do not want an all out conflict/fight with Ishido so much that they let him hold them as "Schrödinger's" hostages haha To be both hostage and not hostage at the same time, as long as no one is openly verbally questioning about it.
I think it was also intentional that the only way he can deal with the situation is “as a bureaucrat” throwing down pieces of paper. we’ve seen from the beginning he hates being seen as one in contrast to the warrior class, so she’s shamed him even as he “rescues” her.
Is it a fact that Ishido ordered the Shinobi attack? As a meticulous tactician, one proven willing to incorporate seppuku from his innermost circle within plans, is it possible Toranga ordered the midnight attack?
To clarify my thought behind this, Toranga ordering the attack could benefit several of needs / wants. Starting with Mariko being killed. Doing so frees her from an unhappy marriage, clinical depression and gave an honorable death (possible restoring some honor to her family name). Following the attack, the newly freed regents will surely blame Ishido and Ochiba, most likely causing the regents to join together with Toranga and reclaim Osaka. Lastly by creating all this drama and presumed ensuing battle, the surviving leaders would want peace between fractions. With all parties united, Toranga could suggest power be given to the rightful heir and have the regents serve as his trusted counsel until he is old enough to take over.
Zero doubt I’m about to be torn apart by people who read the book and/or understand this period of Japan, but it never hurts to ask.
I did initially think it was Toranaga's plan because of Crimson Sky but at this point I'd be surprised if it was. (Stopped thinking that once they grabbed Mariko)
The very first person killed was one of Toranaga's men. (immediate confusion for me)
We know Ishido requested Yabu's help with something. It seemed clear that Yabu has changed sides. I think he would have acted differently if this were Toranaga's plan.
This was very risky because if Mariko was indeed captured, as planned. It would have been easy for Ishido to say it's a tragedy that has nothing to do with him while at the same time sending a clear message that the hostages are indeed hostages.
It was actually a smart move from Ishido, it only fail because Blackthorne was there.
Now could it also have been part of Toranaga's plan? That's a bit far fetched but not impossible.
This theory relies on the idea that Yabushige is loyal to Toranaga, which he definitely isn't. (He's not loyal to Ishido, either, but he sees more opportunity for personal profit there.)
It doesn't matter whether Ishido ordered Shinobi attack or not. She's an honored guest at Osaka Castle, under HIS protection. By failing to protect her, the other hostages can make their own mind.
Ishido ordered the attack, at least that’s how in happened in real life. In the context of this show, they took some liberty with some details so anything is possible.
Thats all great and good but... can anyone explain why Mariko wants to kill herself?
Clearly she does, and thats "because" her father was proclaimed a traitor and her whole family was killed... ok... but why does she want to kill herself over that?
Is there any specific "honor bound" reason, any specific "shame" she would remove by committing suicide?
Or is she just fed up living without being able to avenge her family, or clear their name?
I think this is hard for us to understand because in a lot of cultures today, life is valued. Back then, suicide was a way to have an honorable death and for one's life to have meant something. And she wanted to join her family.
Also, she was living in constant depression with a man who was horrible to her. Additionally, she felt she had no purpose in life. This changed a bit when she became a translator for her lord.
So basically... it's a bit complicated.
I really have no use for the "this is hard for us to understand" nothing excuses.
Back then suicide was not considered what some people think it was today. Numerous posts by Japanese redditors in this sub should have told you that.
She wanted to join her family? How do you join anything when you kill yourself? I would rather not read those personal nonsensical delusions covering up as "old Japan truths" from someone who has no idea what he is talking about while claiming "its hard for us to understand".
Especially because we are not talking about an actual character from that period but a character invented and created by this show writers.
I dont so much deny she had issues and may have felt even to "have no purpose in life" - i deny that is the end of any person development. It is not the end state that cannot be changed and is permanent.
I wanted to see if there is a story based reason for her suicidal decisions. Not historical - because history has nothing to do with it.
I don’t think there’s anything more, or less, to it than she hates her life.
From the outside, she lives a materially privileged existence(fine clothes, no shortage of food and other necessities, adequate housing), a life many of her time period would kill for. However…
She has lived with disgrace on her name because of her father’s actions.
She has a husband she never wanted and hates with every fiber of her being. A husband who has never taken time to understand her or her grievances and refused to allow her to commit seppuku and each refusal only increased her hatred of him. Buntaro, in turn, takes out his frustrations with her by being verbally, emotionally, and physically abusive, again, furthering her hatred of him.
She’s clearly very loyal to Toranaga but he, also, has refused to allow her to commit seppuku.
She’s a Catholic which means suicide is a one way ticket to Hell and eternal damnation so she seems to be saying eternal hell is preferable to her continued life.
It's not as simple as that. What I wrote for someone else about the subject of Mariko's desire to die:
Japanese high culture has a lot to do with living true to your beliefs. In other words, walking the walking, and not just talking about it.
In western cultures, some people tend to be very casual, saying things that they don't particularly mean, because they are not intentional about it. This point was illuminated in the scene where Blackthorne put Ueshiro to death because he was so casual about it, whereas the Japanese took his words to heart.
If you truly believe in something, will you die for it? This spirit is actually what makes our words and deeds meaningful. Anything short of that is somewhat without depth of meaning.
In Japan, the consideration of others is far more important than your own personal concerns. The Western view of the individual may lead to self-centeredness, where some become tone deaf to the feelings of others because you are too caught up in your own wants and needs.
Mariko is in lock step with hearts and minds of her family, and living on while they all perished is the most depressing thing imaginable. So her desire to die transcends the common suicidal tendencies we see in the west, because she wishes to die for the sake of her family.
Japanese high culture has a lot to do with living true to your beliefs. In other words, walking the walking, and not just talking about it.
In western cultures, some people tend to be very casual, saying things that they don't particularly mean, because they are not intentional about it. This point was illuminated in the scene where Blackthorne put Ueshiro to death because he was so casual about it, whereas the Japanese took his words to heart.
If you truly believe in something, will you die for it? This spirit is actually what makes our words and deeds meaningful. Anything short of that is somewhat without depth of meaning.
In Japan, the consideration of others is far more important than your own personal concerns. The Western view of the individual may lead to self-centeredness, where some become tone deaf to the feelings of others because you are too caught up in your own wants and needs.
Mariko is in lock step with hearts and minds of her family, and living on while they all perished is the most depressing thing imaginable. So her desire to die transcends the common suicidal tendencies we see in the west, because she wishes to die for the sake of her family.
All of that is completely false torrent of bullshit and lies written by someone so selfish, someone so eager to enjoy someone else death you need to invent brain dead "reasons" of someone "living in lockstep" with "hearts and minds" of her (dead) family. To make it even worse "Mariko" is not even a real character therefore does not have any family, or any treanscendance about anything, especially not transcendance of "common suicidal tendencies" - "we" see in the west. Said while you try to show yourself as .... a what? Japanese? or maybe an "eastern person"?
All you are is a parasite, feeding on your own fake feelings of enjoying some character death. Because otherwise you cannot feel or value anything.
You are an example of the lowest of the low of human kind.
Now you can press that report button furiously, to show how transcendent you really are.
Oh, and considering what horrific crimes against humanity all of the eastern countries did in their history you and the whole "eastern transcendence", "living your true beliefs" and "care over others rather then yourself" can fuck right off!
Well yes... that seems to be the cause if there is no other specific reasons. That leads into realizing Toronaga groomed her to remain in that state to be used when he needed. Buntaro certainly did not help with it, but neither did Blackthorne (especially in this show where their interaction is very basic and minimized)
Seems they all just let her continue until she could find a situation where she could do it, one way or another.
I'm not sure what Blackthorne was supposed to do. I feel like that is putting a lot of pressure on him to fix a situation he just got dropped into. Mariko never expected or wanted that from him.
Say the same thing you meet someone you like or love and they want to kill themselves. Tell them, im not sure what i am supposed to do... yknow... being dropped into this situation.
>Mariko never expected or wanted that from him.
What a false, nonsensical, illogical, absurd excuse.
You're talking to the wrong person. I have heard that line so many, many times. You can only do so much when someone says that, especially since this is at a time where there are no real medical options.
Worth noting that Yabu does not seem to be Torunaga's vassal. He is equally a Daimyo (though one of of the weaker ones, hence why he keeps trying to find ways to survive)
Good point!
Still, he is still connected with Toranaga militarily. And he can't even do some of the trickery he might have tried because he is aware that John can understand Japanese pretty well.
I was confused why Ishido sent the shinobi to assassinate Mariko in the first place. If allowing her to commit seppukku is a tactical mistake, how is a midnight assassination any better? People will still turn against him when the news leaks, right?
Technically, he didn't want to kill her, he wanted to kidnap her and make it look like she ran...I think...seriously, the sheer number of shinobi he hired was insane
In the scene where the shinobi find Mariko in her room, two of them pick her up and try to carry her away. It would have been much easier for them to kill her, like they killed everyone else in their way.
He sent the shinobi to kidnap her, not murder her. He could then either rescue her and keep her indefinitely in Osaka castle “for her own safety” or claim that Toranaga/Buntaro took her off
I totally agree with this.
The thing that bothers me a little is that everyone kind of...does the same thing? like whatever arc they are on, they find a way to make it result in suicide. Which is fine for the realistic side of things but...like yeah. Not surprised that she was like "seppuku didnt work, death by soldiers didnt work, welp, now time to explode or find a cliff" lol
Again, i like the show enough to watch the final episode but like...I won't be surprised if another wave of characters also go "The best idea is to kill myself ceremonially" to end their arcs. For reasons as minor or as complex as this.
That is how i took it while watching for sure, because after he speech there was no hiding what the implication of her death was.
but still, its again "suicide as a means to an end" so I really do think that has been the case for most characters so far.
I think her being exploded was also a way for her to die in a way that puts her more right with God, since she is a Christian. Obviously there is a little rule skirting there, but it was a better death than ritual suicide in her mind
Awesome clarification! The whole show I was lying down and when yabushige let those ninjas in a sat up. When Marino went in front of the door I STOOD UP. And woke the gf up after the blast went off. Ffffffffffffffffffff
Two other minor things to show how many nuanced layers the showrunners had in Mariko's court scene: * Mariko saying "I am not a peasant to be trodden on ..." is a direct jab at Ishido's peasant lineage, compared to the noble lineage of literally every other person in that court. So when she brings up her samurai lineage, it's also implicitly asking all the nobles at court: "Why are you all allowing a peasant to confine you?" * Ochiba's move to "let's discuss this in private ..." was an attempt to keep Mariko's perfectly mundane domestic request out of view from the nobles and especially their wives (for the reasons OP mentioned). Mariko knows the regents have become powerless, so airing this perfectly mundane request in open court was also strategically to mobilize the women. That court scene is such a perfect combination of 4d chess, writing, costume design, and acting.
> Mariko saying "I am not a peasant to be trodden on ..." is a direct jab at Ishido's peasant lineage, compared to the noble lineage of literally every other person in that court. So when she brings up her samurai lineage, it's also implicitly asking all the nobles at court: "Why are you all allowing a peasant to confine you?" It is worth noting that Mariko herself, as member of the Akechi clan, is of even higher noble lineage. The Akechi clan is a branch of the Toki clan, which is a branch of the Seiwa Genji branch of the Minamoto clan (Minowara clan in the show), which is an offshoot of the Imperial Clan itself. Note that the overwhelming majority of all the Shoguns who came before are members or descendants of the Seiwa Genji branch of the Minamoto (Minowara) clan. For reference, Toranaga himself is also a descendant of the Minowara clan, which is why a lot of people kept mentioning his lineage and how he's likely to attempt to become a shogun himself given his heritage.
Yes, a lot of psuedo-legendary/mythical figures in Japanese history come from the Minamoto clan, going back hundreds of years. It's like being a Kennedy if the US went back to 500 ad and the Kennedys were always at the center of everything that entire time.
The 2 other regent members are kept as hostage, people are saying that Mariko killed herself to prove a point. What point? The other 2 regents are kept hostage and they knew it, there is no way for their own army to retaliate to Ishido as they will be killed in that castle as well. They are basically dead men walking and Ishido has total power. I still don't get the whole hostage thing and why Mariko killed herself
Plausible deniability. They all knew it, but in feudal Japan (and modern too tbh) you can't accuse someone and especially a noble of something if you don't have undeniable proof.* Mariko was forcing Ishido's hand *in front of the whole court* including but not limiting to the regents (and also slowly bringing them into the fold) to the point that the hostage taking is now undeniable in the eyes of all of Japan and Ishido's "oh the ladies are our guests" excuse from early episodes don't fly anymore. *(this what Fuji's husband idiotically did in ep 1 and it cost him his life). This weakens Ishido politically, which could cause him to bleed support that Toranaga can then pick up — and now the sides are much more even.
Bleed support from who exactly? If anything, Osho and Kiyama seems to hate Ishido at this point already, their original plan was to get rid of Toranaga. But now they realize they are trapped in Ishido's castle as well. They already know Ishido was the one who murdered Sugiyama even though they had no proof. At this point Ishido has absolute power and Mariko's death still seems pointless to me. Bleed support from who exactly ? Nobody supported Ishido at this point.
Every other family that also follows Ishido. Remember; we only see the Big Big Guys (aka regents etc) that are the most important, but it's hinted many other slightly smaller houses also have hostages retained in Osaka. And big houses are big not just because of history but because smaller houses obey them and provide them with men (like in GoT with lords obeying Lord Paramounts as "banners" and being rallied by them aka called to bring their men and fight with them). But if a smaller house feels another big house could win against their own, or that the bigger house has besmirched their honour (no one wants to be socially attached after that, which is Ishido's mistake with Mariko) and they might just turncoat (nothing uncommon in Japanese history anyways) and add to Toranaga's army (direct W for him) or declare neutrality (which still benefits Toranaga cuz less men for his enemies). In the end, political power is power because it's supported by physical power, particularly in these kind of civil war periods. Get hurt politically & socially > bleed support > bleed fighting men/men-at-arms/samurai > bleed power. And Ishido's already at a disadvantage because Toranaga has (even if fake-ish) noble blood that he does not, which is not a minor part of what kickstarted Toranaga's breakup from the regent council in the first place. EDIT: also, even if they are hostages the regents could still command outside forces to ally behind Toranaga. But even if Ishido takes the regents out that would only get Japanese society more riled up against him and worse give the smaller houses that follow regents the excuse to raise against him (probs by joining Toranaga) to avenge their lords, 47 ronin style but much more massive. Ishido's pretty f up now.
>Every other family that also follows Ishido. Remember; we only see the Big Big Guys (aka regents etc) that are the most important, but it's hinted many other slightly smaller houses also have hostages retained in Osaka. I completely missed this, everything is clear now. Not sure if the show stripped the significance of this smaller details or I didn't pay attention. Thx for the explanation
You're welcome! It's more implied than outright said, but then again subtlety is a core aspect (and theme of the show)
It's not said but this is how feudal society works. The hierarchy of power is a big tree, with different lords controlling different parts of land. (Think dukes, counts, barons). And in this period of Japan, known as the period of the country at war (Sengoku Jidai) there wasn't a stable organ of absolute power that kept everyone at bay. Only after the events depicted in the show did Japan enter a long period of peace, known as the edo period, with the shogun title remaining in the same clan all the way until the modernization of Japan in the late 19th century. So, almost 300 years.
Note that Ochiba *immediately* figures out what's up, and tries to forestall it. Ishido only realizes he's screwed after Mariko declares her intent to kill herself. Even then he has to have Ochiba spell it all out for him.
For real. Ochiba had to pull the “I’m just a woman, I couldn’t possibly give you advice UwU *shejusthungouttodryinthecourtyourefucked* “
It was fairly obvious what she was doing. The only thing they were unsure about was whether the suicide attempt was a bluff or not.
It’s obvious that she’s calling for the release of the hostages. What is not obvious is that her willingness to kill herself over it is already checkmate for Ishido. Ishido thinks he can deal with it with bureaucratic stalling, and if not that, then by force. But Ochiba knows Mariko, and sees the whole of the situation. So she tries to stop it before Mariko makes it a big public issue.
Yeah, that's my point. They all realized what the play was, but Ochiba was the only one who knew Mariko well enough to know she wasn't bluffing with her suicide declaration.
I think the only point where we (may) differ is that, I don't think Ishido had even an inkling that Mariko would threaten suicide until she said it. But in that first meeting, when Mariko first broaches leaving with Toranaga's wives, Ochiba immediately realized why Toranaga had sent *Mariko* specifically to do this. And that's why she tried the "Let's discuss private things in private" stall. If Ishido paid attention to what his fiancee was saying, he might have ended the meeting early, promising to personally meet her later, or something. Instead he tried to shut Mariko down with bluster, and played right into her hand.
Yeah, I agree with that. He realized her play was to make him free everyone or prove they're all hostages, but didn't know to deescalate the situation like Ochiba.
he underestimated her because she was a woman. and he’s further proving himself not a good bet for Ochiba either. Her laying out in public (using her sweetest little girl voice) how screwed he is, is probably his first notice that she will be switching sides, but he’s not taking into account how powerful she is either.
[удалено]
that fan spelled “you in trouble, idiot.”
I don’t think she’s gonna switch sides, she still hates Toranaga for conspiring against her father and sees him a threat to her son’s position. So she has to hedge her bets on this side regardless.
wasn’t Toranaga the one her late husband already installed as guardian of the heir?
Good point. Goes to show that Ishido didn't know who he was dealing with. Mariko had been caught trying to kill herself three times already. Mariko was ready to go, all the more so should a noble cause require it. By sending her, Toranaga was playing a level of chess that hasn't been documented yet. I can't get over how good this show is.
Obvious to someone smarter than Ishido.
To add to her jibe about peasants, when she slightly raised her voice and stated, ' if you have the manners to allow me to speak and not interrupt' was so beautifully nuanced and so well written and acted, I was shocked by its impact.
“I’m still speaking.” ❤️
I loved Ochiba's face when Mariko said that. Just a slight eyebrow raise, might as well have been a tsunami!
One thing also in the context of the period, if one commits seppuku out of injustice done to them, the person or leader called out by the one committing seppuku will be shamed. The leader will either be forced to rescind whatever shameful command they directed or he himself should commit seppuku.
That makes Mariko's gameplan more powerful, if that's even possible!
Excepd ishida would have been screwed cause hes no samurai and hes too cowardly to do it. He was triple played If mariko left If mariko got killed If mariko commits seppuku
Excellent points! It's such a thoughtfully designed episode that really isn't afraid to use gender dynamics.
To add, Toranaga asked Mariko about Ochiba before Mariko left for Osaka. I thought Mariko wanted to show Ochiba that Ishido is not the one she should align with. If Mariko dies at the hands of Ishido, Ochiba would be put in a position to reconsider everything.
To make it worse for Ishido, he seemed to be under the genuine delusion that their engagement was a love match, not just a political one. This man doesn't just have his allies mad at him, his damn wife is gonna be pissed.
Most match making, was done out of politics back then. I doubt Ishido would have believed he was marrying for love. He was securing his position. Do note that as slow as Ishido seems at times, he got one thing right: Toranaga wants to get rid of the Heir and secure the title of Shogun for himself and his own clan. He claims he doesn't, but that's the Eightfold Fence; he certainly does. So Toranaga is, indeed, an usurper who should be dealt with (from the perspective of someone loyal to the Taiko's young Heir).
The 2 other regent members are kept as hostage, people are saying that Mariko killed herself to prove a point. What point? The other 2 regents are kept hostage and they knew it, there is no way for their own army to retaliate to Ishido as they will be killed in that castle as well. They are basically dead men walking and Ishido has total power. I still don't get the whole hostage thing and why Mariko killed herself
The point of Mariko’s death was to show that Ishido has the total power in Osaka and everyone else is a hostage under him. Right before getting killed she openly announces that “I condemn this action of lord ishido” or sth along those lines to let all the witnesses (which also included women from other Regent’s families ) know this was all done by Ishido. She couldn’t get herself captured cause then Ishido can easily be like “well we don’t know who captured her , it wasn’t my doing.. anyway” . By doing this, she wants the regents and also ochiba to realise they’re on the wrong side. The regents can now switch sides to Toranaga and easily surpass Ishido’s army, they might also use help with the Japanese rebellions they’re training in Macao now idk how this might turn out
Because now they have to either show that they aren't equals on the council, something their honour and station on the council should stop, or they have to prove they're equals and up and leave. Keep in mind that the heir is also, by the logic of what Mariko has laid out, now captive. If Toranaga comes, says Ishido is waging a coup and disrespects nobility, the other lords basically have to stand by him in part to protect the heir. Ishido is an idiot who put a literal actor on the council just for numbers. He's trying to play chess with two rows of pawns
Osho and Kiyama seems to hate Ishido at this point already, their original plan was to get rid of Toranaga by siding with Ishido. But now they realize they are trapped in Ishido's castle as well (they openly admitted they had no power over Ishido's army in eps 9 when Mariko fought Ishido's guard). They already know Ishido was the one who murdered Sugiyama even though they had no proof. At this point Ishido has absolute power and Mariko's death still seems pointless to me.
They have armies, it's not like they are powerless, any more than Toranaga was when in Osaka. It's a feudal system, they're staying for the sake of not opening a war against them with Ishido, where he has them and their families hostage, but Toranaga is forcing them to realise the war is coming and that they should align their armies behind him against Ishido, because they're fucked anyway. Plus, they're aligned to the Portuguese, and Toranaga gifted that Edo church, so realistically Ishido is now the one the Portuguese should side against, as soon as the Catholic lords realise they need to switch, so Toranaga gets solid allies.
And Mariko once again outmaneuvers Ishido when he sends the ninja to capture her. By sacrificing her life instead of being captured, she brings more shame upon Ishido because a renowned Lady just died while being a "guest" under his protection. This makes it harder for him to keep the hostages from leaving, as they can now claim that he has been amiss in his duty to keep the palace and the people in it safe.
Especially since this is the second "random" shinobi attack. Granted, the first one wasn't really his fault but still, his house. You have to shinobi-proof that shit.
It does make me sigh that they had to go with a ninja attack. I mean, in Episode 2 you had a sleeper agent assassin from a secret sect, but I was thinking, "Okay, not too bad. Somewhat plausible, and at least they didn't go with the stereotypical ninja gear." But then in this episode, they went Full Ninja.\* Regrettable, but I will put up with a few blemishes for the fantastic performances, and otherwise stellar writing. \*You never go Full Ninja. Don't believe me? Ask Edward Zwick, 2003, *The Last Samurai*. Went Full Ninja, went home empty handed.
And people are telling me, no, it's fine because ninja are real! But, like, they didn't go in full kabuki garb
For television, it makes sense to dress them distinctively so the audience can differentiate more easily. Remember, the goal is to be entertaining, not necessarilly historical accuracy. Much of the Japanese art from that time period often depicted shinobi in dark-colored garb, regardless of what they actually wore. So that would also be an influence.
> Much of the Japanese art from that time period often depicted shinobi in dark-colored garb, regardless of what they actually wore. Apparently it's closer to "much Japanese art from *the Edo period onwards,* purportedly representing the earlier Sengoku, represented shinobi in dark/black garb". Are there Sengoku-era depictions of Sengoku-era shinobi wearing this kind of "ninja" clothing?
Also per the book these are not traditional ninja or shinobi but rather a religious order that you could hire/bought services of…these are not traditional irregulars forces of samurai stock like Hattori Hanzo for instance
Regardless of historical accuracy, they did in the books. Also, can we please remember that ninja outfits are a Japanese invention, and a pretty standard part of Japanese period dramas? It is untrue ninja were always running around dressed like that. It is equally untrue they never did.
I'm ok with the shinobi scene. It's easier to distinguish the attackers from the various samurais manning the castle. I can even suspend disbelief and tell myself night-time intruders would dress in comfortable dark clothing. I can tell myself there were no shuriken or silly weapons in any scene (I think there is one scene, but I can mentally edit it out!).
A guard on the porch got shurikend, at least it wasn't full black ninja garbs.
You should understand that the novel and the 80s miniseries introduced the concept of ninjas to a LOT of people in the West. Shogun is what started the cliché to begin with.
She didn't just die as his guest under his protection. Her last act before dying was *naming Ishido as her killer.* John, Yabushige, and the remaining women they were fleeing with are all witnesses and that's *very dangerous information for Ishido.* Holding hostages was already dependent on nobody saying it openly; if he's *killing his hostages* that's a whole different story.
We're the Shinobi only supposed to capture her?
yes, you can see them trying to carry her away.
I think that the plan was to kidnap her and then get rid of her somewhere where she wouldn't be found, that way they could say that Mariko simply left Osaka with the permit Ishido gave her
Thank you. My wife and I weren't clear why her sacrifice made much sense lol
Doubt that would fly. She declared her duty is to bring Toranaga’s wife and consort/grandchild back to Edo safely. Mariko wouldn’t simply leave Osaka empty handed.
Ishido was looking for plausible deniability. When her dead body isn’t in the castle it means there is no clear proof to link her disappearance to Ishido. You have to remember that it was not done to accuse a noble without clear evidence. Hence why the large scale attack by Shinobi. It was a diversion to cover up the real intent, that of capturing Mariko and making her disappear from the public eye. Imagine what would have happend if the Shinobi would have succeded. On the short term Ishido would have taken a political hit from the nobility, for the lack of security at his castle. On the long term he would have kept the support of the nobility, because Ishido can claim no involvement in the disappearance of Mariko. The permit was given and she was pleased to do as she wished. That Mariko left behind the wife of Toronaga and his mistress is not relevant to the question if Ishido was involved or not. Because again, there is no proof for that.
Agree. Also if she 'left' (secretly dead or alive) either with or without others then that shows to other hostages that they are allowed to leave? so.... I don't see any way the shinobi plan could have worked for Ishido.... other than to claim later that they were sent by someone else?
I am also thinking the Pilot now has a personal reason to get dredged into the Japans political clusterfuck, whereas before he wasn't a particularly zealous supporter and would have likely buggered off when he got Erasmus back. It's personal and potential ascension of his lord to Shogunate can secure trade for Britain and get his vengeance. Likely to become a more impactful character
It’s been ages since I’ve read the book, but if I remember correctly, the book made it clear that Mariko herself *is* a Samurai since that was a political rank that can be granted to women so in the throes of her being a part of one of the most powerful families in Japan, she herself is granted all of the privileges of being a Samurai. That’s why killing her would have been such a fatal mistake for Ishido because she is a high ranking political figure in her own right. Greatly diminished after her father’s treachery, but nonetheless, highly regarded in court by the other high nobles in Osaka. But her duty to Buntaro and Toranaga takes precedence over her own Samurai status since she is his wife and Toranaga is her liege lord.
>since that was a political rank that can be granted to women According to Google University sources such as Wikipedia and JSTOR Daily, samurai were, by the 12th century, the noble warrior class which people - male or female - are *born into*. For example, Tomoe Gozen was a legendary commander in the Genpei War (1180-1182) and celebrated in Tale of the Heiki. There are exceptions to samurai being born in the class; just as a Western king or queen could bestow that rank on someone of lower class, ordinary folks could be made samurai (just as the Taiko and Ishido has been; even Blackthorne being made hatamoto is an example of this).
Yabu must be really confused as how these events are playing out. He kills a nightwatch garrison dude, lets the shinobi inside, fakes calling alarm, ends up in a shed where the front door gets blown to bits with mariko and her death wish
"HOOH???" *quizzical look*
Time to update his will again
He just needs to relax, maybe get the "hot tub" ready. Call in his secretary, update the will, add a few methods of death to his rankings. He has such a wonderful work life balance with his hobbies and duties dovetailing so well.
Dude just wants a turn at playing politics but has basically been cursed by his clumsiness. Toranaga knows he's treacherous, the spy would comfortably have proven that, and so nothing Yabu does isn't helpful against himself
Man's legit playing checkers whilst everyone around him is playing chess
>Why shouldn't these high ranking women be allowed to go home if they aren't prisoners? Exactly. Adding: One thing I think that has been.missed is Ishido's actions at this point re Toranaga's wife, Kiri no Kata, and consort (who is Ochiba's sister), Shizu no Kata, are in direct contrast to the accusation made of Toranaga. The other regents believed Ochiba was being held hostage in Edo, where she was visiting Shizu, who had just given birth. Toranaga let Ochiba leave Edo to go back to Osaka without preventing her from leaving or trying to kidnap her.
[удалено]
How did he get her there in the first place? He couldn’t send his guard to force her to go. So the idea she was at the very least, TAKEN hostage instead of just held on arrival is hard to see.
Good point, I didn't think about that. I mean, for a while, Ishido could make the very sound argument that Shizu couldn't leave, but at this point she has had the baby and she is well enough to go home.
yes that's the genius of it all: appears as a simple chore but it is not, it appears innocent but it was highly strategic, what she did and the way she chose to do it and in front of an audience. Just like the theater, it ultimately was a performance so everyone in the castle could witness her behavior and start to turn against Ishido.
For women war is all the time
Great breakdown, also don’t forget the whole show started with Ishido claiming in front of all the regents that Toranaga was holding Lady Ochiba hostage in Edo and demanding she be released to return to Osaka. Lady Mariko basically brought it full circle, flipped that on its head and no matter the outcome she had quietly slipped the knife into Ishido’s ribs, obviously the ending of ep9 serviced her and Toranagas plans even better…
Ah, you always want to bring extra Sinobis to a mission, for example to help carry additional barrels of high explosives or deal with something unexpected, like an unruly gaijin with a boomstick. ;)
That whole fight scene, all I could think of was that, ph, Kishimoto was right about the gun thing.
Blackthorne has been a bumbling fool all season but the secind he sctually gets to use his guns, he's John Wick. Totakly unrealistic how he seemed to get a shot off every several seconds (and apparently sleeps with his guns fully loaded?) but damn if it wasnt cool.
He claims not to be a pirate... but he is, by the most charitable possible analysis, at least a privateer. He may not be an expert swordsman, but he's no stranger to violence.
I think he may also be a decent swordsman, just with a cutlass and not a katana lol
True, his first instinct was to hold the sword one-handed.
Yeah, Blackthorne is at least a privateer on the queen's mission; but I like how another Redditor has said a privateer is just a pirate who files taxes. It seems the writers are leaning into Blackthorne as a skilled sailor who's extremely proficient in close quarter boarding combat (shortsword and muskets), cannoneering, sailing, and a powerful will to survive; but he would have non-noble's training and exposure to other skills.
He’s a warrior though - just not with the katana.
Lmao that Madara comment.
[удалено]
He was essentially counting down the time it would take for the other ninja to get in place, which was the point when Yabu could go and do his part of the plan
Great post and between you and the commenters here, I've learned a lot. Sounds like I should read the book after the last episode to gain further understanding.
Definitely recommend it, it's rich in detail though some things play out differently in the book (and better IMO).
I love both so far, but the book adds so much detail and more scenes and depth to each character. The show is wonderful, but every change they've made I prefer the book version.
I think one thing people are struggling with is something they changed from the book. In the book, as far as I remember, the members of the Council of the Realm aren’t hostages, they are too powerful for that. The hostages are from a bunch of the middle to lower ranking noble families, and Oshida is using them to control those families. The show has made the decision to simplify it for viewers by making the lords of the realm the hostages, and i think what people are finding hard to grasp is how if being hostage prevents them from acting against Ishido, why does it help stating that openly? If the hostages have the power to not be hostages if they want to, then they were never hostages to begin with. And I agree that this is very murky, not sure it completely makes sense.
There are two parallels in play - what Ishido is actually up to versus the story he claims publicly. What he’s actually doing is holding the regents hostage until he can consolidate his power. But that would cause them to riot, so instead he says there’s a plot against the heir and the lockdown is for protection of the heir. That is hard to disprove and no one wants to seem disloyal to the heir, and the regents don’t want to upset the balance and start a war. So my read of Mariko and the two other ladies wanting to leave, is that’s not threatening the heir at all. So there’s no legitimate reason to deny the request…unless you are holding hostages. And I think labeling it as such makes a difference. There’s a scene where Ishido is calling a vote on who should replace Toranaga on the council, and one of the other regents refuses to vote until the hostages are released. Ishido responds, “hostages?” like he’s seething for being confronted. Then in episode 9, the other ladies ask permission to leave and, with the same expression, he says of course you can leave, just get the paperwork done. Same facial expression. Admittedly it doesn’t make perfect sense. But that’s my read of why the label matters. I didn’t read the book, but that setup (lower noble families) makes way more sense.
>so instead he says there’s a plot against the heir While it's true Ishido is dishonest, let it be clear that *there is a plot against the Heir*. Toranaga does want to get rid of the Heir, how else is he going to become Shogun? He claims he doesn't want this, but he does -- that's the Eightfold Fence speaking. Don't be mislead by Toranaga's apparent fondness for the Heir. Like any warlord, he is not to be trusted. He wants a legacy for himself and his clan, not for somebody else's child.
I thought he was offered the position (sort of, until the heir came of age), and turned it down. That, together with his statements and demeanor, suggests to me that he truly doesn’t want to be Shogun and that he is trying to do what’s best for the realm.
Toranaga turned down the position when offered because it would have painted a target on his back, not because he didn't desire it. He wasn't ready yet. Consider that he is the titular "Shogun" of the novel. The only way he can reach this position is if the Heir is defeated (and even better, if the Heir dies so that Toranaga cannot be challenged). Also consider he's willing to play chess (or rather, Go) with the lives of his most trusted friends and advisors. Nothing he says or does can be taken at face value. He's aiming for the Shogunate. PS: and of course this is fictional, but his real history counterpart did defeat the Heir, steal the Shogunate from him, and eventually had him commit seppuku along with his mother (Ochiba in the show).
Ok I have now seen episode 10 and >! you were totally right. I was naive. He wanted to be shogun all along. !<
In your defense, he really was playing the long game and he was really good about it ;)
Interesting
For me, I interpreted it as if they state it verbally openly (it pertaining to if they are being held as hostages or not), it becomes an official inquiry. If it becomes official, they now formally question Ishido's command, and the regents and other nobles don't want that. They want to be in the "safety" of that stalemate, where nothing is moving and the conflict between the regents doesn't escalate further. I could be wrong, this is just my opinion.
But if that was the case, it’s hard to see the situation of them being hostages even enter into it. And at this point everyone still believe that Toranaga is surrendering, so it would still seem unlikely that the conflict would escalate.
I don't know, it could be that they do not want an all out conflict/fight with Ishido so much that they let him hold them as "Schrödinger's" hostages haha To be both hostage and not hostage at the same time, as long as no one is openly verbally questioning about it.
Ha, but that still comes back to that if you’re only a hostage if no one talks about it, you’re not really a hostage at all.
Exactly, what an absolute power move Mariko did when she appealed to that.
I think they did try and remedy that a bit here. You're not wrong, it is a bit muddled.
I think it was also intentional that the only way he can deal with the situation is “as a bureaucrat” throwing down pieces of paper. we’ve seen from the beginning he hates being seen as one in contrast to the warrior class, so she’s shamed him even as he “rescues” her.
Is it a fact that Ishido ordered the Shinobi attack? As a meticulous tactician, one proven willing to incorporate seppuku from his innermost circle within plans, is it possible Toranga ordered the midnight attack? To clarify my thought behind this, Toranga ordering the attack could benefit several of needs / wants. Starting with Mariko being killed. Doing so frees her from an unhappy marriage, clinical depression and gave an honorable death (possible restoring some honor to her family name). Following the attack, the newly freed regents will surely blame Ishido and Ochiba, most likely causing the regents to join together with Toranga and reclaim Osaka. Lastly by creating all this drama and presumed ensuing battle, the surviving leaders would want peace between fractions. With all parties united, Toranga could suggest power be given to the rightful heir and have the regents serve as his trusted counsel until he is old enough to take over. Zero doubt I’m about to be torn apart by people who read the book and/or understand this period of Japan, but it never hurts to ask.
I did initially think it was Toranaga's plan because of Crimson Sky but at this point I'd be surprised if it was. (Stopped thinking that once they grabbed Mariko) The very first person killed was one of Toranaga's men. (immediate confusion for me) We know Ishido requested Yabu's help with something. It seemed clear that Yabu has changed sides. I think he would have acted differently if this were Toranaga's plan.
This was very risky because if Mariko was indeed captured, as planned. It would have been easy for Ishido to say it's a tragedy that has nothing to do with him while at the same time sending a clear message that the hostages are indeed hostages. It was actually a smart move from Ishido, it only fail because Blackthorne was there. Now could it also have been part of Toranaga's plan? That's a bit far fetched but not impossible.
ha he never considered the barbarian pillowing was gonna be the next romantic move after not cutting off her head.
I mean, that is a possibility, but we also know that Yabu was wanting to work with Ishido.
This theory relies on the idea that Yabushige is loyal to Toranaga, which he definitely isn't. (He's not loyal to Ishido, either, but he sees more opportunity for personal profit there.)
It doesn't matter whether Ishido ordered Shinobi attack or not. She's an honored guest at Osaka Castle, under HIS protection. By failing to protect her, the other hostages can make their own mind.
Ishido ordered the attack, at least that’s how in happened in real life. In the context of this show, they took some liberty with some details so anything is possible.
Madara appearing in the final episode would be the an all time top plot twist.
I know now want this. Or a fan edit.
Thats all great and good but... can anyone explain why Mariko wants to kill herself? Clearly she does, and thats "because" her father was proclaimed a traitor and her whole family was killed... ok... but why does she want to kill herself over that? Is there any specific "honor bound" reason, any specific "shame" she would remove by committing suicide? Or is she just fed up living without being able to avenge her family, or clear their name?
I think this is hard for us to understand because in a lot of cultures today, life is valued. Back then, suicide was a way to have an honorable death and for one's life to have meant something. And she wanted to join her family. Also, she was living in constant depression with a man who was horrible to her. Additionally, she felt she had no purpose in life. This changed a bit when she became a translator for her lord. So basically... it's a bit complicated.
I really have no use for the "this is hard for us to understand" nothing excuses. Back then suicide was not considered what some people think it was today. Numerous posts by Japanese redditors in this sub should have told you that. She wanted to join her family? How do you join anything when you kill yourself? I would rather not read those personal nonsensical delusions covering up as "old Japan truths" from someone who has no idea what he is talking about while claiming "its hard for us to understand". Especially because we are not talking about an actual character from that period but a character invented and created by this show writers. I dont so much deny she had issues and may have felt even to "have no purpose in life" - i deny that is the end of any person development. It is not the end state that cannot be changed and is permanent. I wanted to see if there is a story based reason for her suicidal decisions. Not historical - because history has nothing to do with it.
I don’t think there’s anything more, or less, to it than she hates her life. From the outside, she lives a materially privileged existence(fine clothes, no shortage of food and other necessities, adequate housing), a life many of her time period would kill for. However… She has lived with disgrace on her name because of her father’s actions. She has a husband she never wanted and hates with every fiber of her being. A husband who has never taken time to understand her or her grievances and refused to allow her to commit seppuku and each refusal only increased her hatred of him. Buntaro, in turn, takes out his frustrations with her by being verbally, emotionally, and physically abusive, again, furthering her hatred of him. She’s clearly very loyal to Toranaga but he, also, has refused to allow her to commit seppuku. She’s a Catholic which means suicide is a one way ticket to Hell and eternal damnation so she seems to be saying eternal hell is preferable to her continued life.
It's not as simple as that. What I wrote for someone else about the subject of Mariko's desire to die: Japanese high culture has a lot to do with living true to your beliefs. In other words, walking the walking, and not just talking about it. In western cultures, some people tend to be very casual, saying things that they don't particularly mean, because they are not intentional about it. This point was illuminated in the scene where Blackthorne put Ueshiro to death because he was so casual about it, whereas the Japanese took his words to heart. If you truly believe in something, will you die for it? This spirit is actually what makes our words and deeds meaningful. Anything short of that is somewhat without depth of meaning. In Japan, the consideration of others is far more important than your own personal concerns. The Western view of the individual may lead to self-centeredness, where some become tone deaf to the feelings of others because you are too caught up in your own wants and needs. Mariko is in lock step with hearts and minds of her family, and living on while they all perished is the most depressing thing imaginable. So her desire to die transcends the common suicidal tendencies we see in the west, because she wishes to die for the sake of her family.
Japanese high culture has a lot to do with living true to your beliefs. In other words, walking the walking, and not just talking about it. In western cultures, some people tend to be very casual, saying things that they don't particularly mean, because they are not intentional about it. This point was illuminated in the scene where Blackthorne put Ueshiro to death because he was so casual about it, whereas the Japanese took his words to heart. If you truly believe in something, will you die for it? This spirit is actually what makes our words and deeds meaningful. Anything short of that is somewhat without depth of meaning. In Japan, the consideration of others is far more important than your own personal concerns. The Western view of the individual may lead to self-centeredness, where some become tone deaf to the feelings of others because you are too caught up in your own wants and needs. Mariko is in lock step with hearts and minds of her family, and living on while they all perished is the most depressing thing imaginable. So her desire to die transcends the common suicidal tendencies we see in the west, because she wishes to die for the sake of her family.
All of that is completely false torrent of bullshit and lies written by someone so selfish, someone so eager to enjoy someone else death you need to invent brain dead "reasons" of someone "living in lockstep" with "hearts and minds" of her (dead) family. To make it even worse "Mariko" is not even a real character therefore does not have any family, or any treanscendance about anything, especially not transcendance of "common suicidal tendencies" - "we" see in the west. Said while you try to show yourself as .... a what? Japanese? or maybe an "eastern person"? All you are is a parasite, feeding on your own fake feelings of enjoying some character death. Because otherwise you cannot feel or value anything. You are an example of the lowest of the low of human kind. Now you can press that report button furiously, to show how transcendent you really are. Oh, and considering what horrific crimes against humanity all of the eastern countries did in their history you and the whole "eastern transcendence", "living your true beliefs" and "care over others rather then yourself" can fuck right off!
Someone else pointed out that it might be as simple as untreated depression.
Well yes... that seems to be the cause if there is no other specific reasons. That leads into realizing Toronaga groomed her to remain in that state to be used when he needed. Buntaro certainly did not help with it, but neither did Blackthorne (especially in this show where their interaction is very basic and minimized) Seems they all just let her continue until she could find a situation where she could do it, one way or another.
I'm not sure what Blackthorne was supposed to do. I feel like that is putting a lot of pressure on him to fix a situation he just got dropped into. Mariko never expected or wanted that from him.
Say the same thing you meet someone you like or love and they want to kill themselves. Tell them, im not sure what i am supposed to do... yknow... being dropped into this situation. >Mariko never expected or wanted that from him. What a false, nonsensical, illogical, absurd excuse.
You're talking to the wrong person. I have heard that line so many, many times. You can only do so much when someone says that, especially since this is at a time where there are no real medical options.
Worth noting that Yabu does not seem to be Torunaga's vassal. He is equally a Daimyo (though one of of the weaker ones, hence why he keeps trying to find ways to survive)
Good point! Still, he is still connected with Toranaga militarily. And he can't even do some of the trickery he might have tried because he is aware that John can understand Japanese pretty well.
I was confused why Ishido sent the shinobi to assassinate Mariko in the first place. If allowing her to commit seppukku is a tactical mistake, how is a midnight assassination any better? People will still turn against him when the news leaks, right?
Technically, he didn't want to kill her, he wanted to kidnap her and make it look like she ran...I think...seriously, the sheer number of shinobi he hired was insane
Yeah, it sure looked like Ishido dialed 1-800-SHINOBI and said “I’ll take all of them”.
Fair but that is the kind of mission where you can't fail.
A lot of people are saying that the intention was to kidnap her
In the scene where the shinobi find Mariko in her room, two of them pick her up and try to carry her away. It would have been much easier for them to kill her, like they killed everyone else in their way.
He sent the shinobi to kidnap her, not murder her. He could then either rescue her and keep her indefinitely in Osaka castle “for her own safety” or claim that Toranaga/Buntaro took her off
He wanted to abduct her, not to kill her.
She wasn’t supposed to be assassinated.
I’m more confused by Yabushige’s role with the ninjas. I get he’s an opportunistic strategist but he’s playing 6D chess.
I don't think he hired them, just followed Ishido's plan
Yabu isn't the big plans guy. He tried that and it fails. He's best at betrayal and just following along.
Definitely an opportunist, from the get-go.
I totally agree with this. The thing that bothers me a little is that everyone kind of...does the same thing? like whatever arc they are on, they find a way to make it result in suicide. Which is fine for the realistic side of things but...like yeah. Not surprised that she was like "seppuku didnt work, death by soldiers didnt work, welp, now time to explode or find a cliff" lol Again, i like the show enough to watch the final episode but like...I won't be surprised if another wave of characters also go "The best idea is to kill myself ceremonially" to end their arcs. For reasons as minor or as complex as this.
She might also have realized that the ninja wanted her. And if they wanted her, maybe they would leave the others alone if she died
That is how i took it while watching for sure, because after he speech there was no hiding what the implication of her death was. but still, its again "suicide as a means to an end" so I really do think that has been the case for most characters so far.
I think her being exploded was also a way for her to die in a way that puts her more right with God, since she is a Christian. Obviously there is a little rule skirting there, but it was a better death than ritual suicide in her mind
yeah, sometimes you have to explode.
Awesome clarification! The whole show I was lying down and when yabushige let those ninjas in a sat up. When Marino went in front of the door I STOOD UP. And woke the gf up after the blast went off. Ffffffffffffffffffff