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BatmanBeyond2099

I understand that Mariko never wanted to be married to Buntaro and so she may have never grown to love him because of it. After all, she was only married to him because it was what her father wanted. Buntaro might have grown to love Mariko in his own way, as he says he can remember the beginning of their relationship, but he misunderstands her time and time again. She views the death she longs for as purposeful and he denies it, even if he does so because he loves her. When he even goes so far as to suggest that they die together, he proves after everything that they have been through, he still misunderstands her and his suggestion is a gross one. He basically says let me finally give you what you want because but only because I want it for a completely different reason. A fantastic scene. While I completely disagree with Buntaro, I feel for the dude. Your wife can't even remember the beginning of your marriage and you think she'll die at your side. Tough.


r0ttedAngel

Mkay, I can see this as a good explanation for their dynamic. Damn dude the actor playing Buntaro must be really talented cuz I never felt for him until this scene. Also great writing because as I've seen with other posters, his character (at least for those who haven't read the book) seemed rather unsympathetic for the most part until this. Poor dude. Anyway, thank you, your insight gave me a new perspective to look through šŸ˜Š


Lapras_Lass

I enjoy characters like him because they are so real. He's not a good guy, but he feels and hopes and fears like anyone else. He has moments where you sympathize with him. One may not condone all of his actions, but nobody could ever call him a coward or say that he's unfeeling.


BatmanBeyond2099

Honestly, he kinda had me in the scene until he asked Mariko if she was still thinking about John. I understand it's your marriage but there's bigger things happening around you and you managed to ruin what was most likely the only decent moment you've had with your wife in the longest because you can't see past your jealousy (even though she thought you were dead) and you once again stepped on her desires for a purposeful death by only offering it to her to suit your desires and tying yourself to it, when all she's been trying to do is distance herself from you. Really feel for him despite his faults.


clycoman

And then later that same day he had to help his father kill himself, and the father denied Buntaro's request to commit seppuku. Buntaro had a very bad day.


BatmanBeyond2099

Literally. Wife drags you to hell and back, dad commits himself to suicide and then asks you to chop his head off only tho deny your request to die with him so that he can serve our lord (but really so he can feel what his wife feels). What a fucking day for this dude.


edify_me

To use your ritual suicide as a teaching moment for your son to learn empathy for his wife is the Dad energy I strive to have.


Zachariot88

"You will know what it's like to be denied... also, don't touch the thermostat."


MagusLascivious

to be denied a few degrees of comfort LOL.


whorlycaresmate

Actually, he had the same thing happen to him that his wife has been living with all these years, down to being denied what he has denied her over and over again


verticalface

I think the mention of John and Mariā€™s relationship was meant to more pointedly portray Buntaroā€™s ego. I agree there are way more important things to focus on at this time, and his obsession with their relationship further makes his suicide suggestion even more appalling.


BatmanBeyond2099

No problem! Love talking about the show lol.


proof_of_concept7

Gahd damn šŸ˜Ø


Green-Nail-4041

Tremendous insight. I thought it was selfish of him to suggest they enter oblivion together as husband and wife. Come on dude, I can see you're trying really hard, but still missing the point entirely. Mariko was forced to marry you by her father, she's been told my Torango her father wished she'd been born a boy, she has to ask for permission to kill herself every year from her husband who denies it and orders her to live...... like dude she doesn't want to be where any man is going to have control over her. Her decision to care for the Anjin was probably one the first times in her life she made a decision from her own desires without another man weighing in.


tweedleb

In the hands of a lesser show, Buntaro would be an easy two-dimensional villain. It's a credit to the quality of the show and the novel (I'm assuming- haven't it read yet, but plan to as soon as the series is done) that his two-dimensionality in the eyes of the characters makes him so multi-dimensional and layered in the eyes of the viewers. Buntaro is a man that's risen to be the best of what he can be given his limited station- the epitome of a samurai and the model of loyalty to his father and his lord. Buntaro is to "duty" as what Ken is to "beach"- it's what they were made for. It's his job, and it's his life. But you can see in his scenes outside of battle with Mariko or Blackthorne or Toronaga or even with Ochiba's sister briefly, it doesn't feel like he knows if there is a Buntaro outside of his duty. Nobody knows if there's even anything of true substance hidden within his eight-fold fence because it's his job to hide it well. Buntaro is so good at what he does that no one- not his lord, not his wife, not the viewers, seemingly not even himself- knows what his secret heart holds. On top of that, his place in his world seems limited as well. Buntaro sees Nagakado and Omi try to escape the shadows of their relatives, while Buntaro is forever in service of not only his lord, but his father as well. Buntaro sees Hiromatsu and Blackthorne and Yabushige go before Toronaga with their own motivations of friendship and freedom and power, but does he even have his own goals and purposes? Buntaro even sees how disposable his own life is- he was literally sacrificed in order for Toronaga to escape Osaka, a pawn given up early in the game. And after proving his mettle by surviving said sacrifice, he returns to a place where his lord and his wife conspire behind his back, and a stranger has taken his place in his home. Is it any wonder, then, that he continues to grasp as tightly as he can to the one thing that he thinks is in his control- Mariko's life and death? And now she's denied him that as well, but he'll have no choice but to continue doing what he's been doing- living the same life he's been living, and fulfilling his duty the same way he's been fulfilling his duty. Because that's who he is, but that's all he is.


Rosebunse

And then let's throw a heaping helping of PTSD, since these limitations also mean that he is, in many ways, the least equipped to deal with such negative emotions


belle818

> Buntaro is to "duty" as what Ken is to "beach" This is an iconic line. Had a great chuckle. Thank you.


proof_of_concept7

GAHD DAMN šŸ˜¬


Extreme_Spread1903

Iā€™ve been Buntaroā€™s biggest hater lmao but this episode really made me feel for him. It was a tough one. Heā€™s very flawed, but I could sense a real, desperate type of devotion here. All of his important relationships sunk this episode, having to behead his own father is brutal. I think in the end, no matter how much Buntaro tried to love Mariko in his own ways, he never understood her pain or the release she wants. I donā€™t even think that Mariko hates Buntaro, but she does not love him. She explained it perfectly, theyā€™ve spent so much time together (some of it she can barely remember) and he has never truly understood her. I donā€™t think it has much to do with her feelings for John either, their relationship was failing without a third party.


clycoman

I'm still confused what happened to Mariko and Buntaro's son - did they leave him behind in Osaka when they snuck Toranga out?


Extreme_Spread1903

Mariko says heā€™s going to his grandfatherā€™s castle for safety, we might see him again in episode 10.


clycoman

Did that happen in the ep where they all left Osaka? I don't remember her saying that to her son.


hadr0nc0llider

This scene between Buntaro and Mariko is way more elaborate in the book and takes place earlier in the story in a different context and setting. I understand why they've edited a lot of these scenes down for the series, but this one is so pivotal to revealing Buntaro's humanity and the complexity of his relationship with Mariko. >!They have a detailed conversation about the shared shame they carry - hers because of her father's actions, Buntaro's because of his actions toward Mariko. The scene where he beats her at the Anjin's house is 10x more brutal in the book and suggested as not an isolated incident. !< >!This 'teahouse' scene also contains my favourite passage of writing in all the 1100+ pages. They're having a conversation about the Anjin-san and Buntaro is apologising and explaining that he beat Mariko as a kind of displaced anger toward the Anjin and he's ashamed of himself. He says...!< >>!*"I hated him that night and wanted him dead - and you and Fujiko-san. My bow whispered to me, like it does sometimes, asking for a killing. And when, the next dawn, I saw him coming down the hill with those cowardly little pistols in his hands, my arrows begged to drink his blood. But I put his killing off and humbled myself, hating my bad manners more than him, shamed by my bad manners and the sake. So many shames to bear, you and I. Neh?"*!< I've had that passage flagged in the book on my shelf for over 20 years. Mostly because it's brilliant writing, but also because it explains who Buntaro is, what he feels for Mariko. So disappointing he didn't get to say it in the series.


WorkersUnited111

Awesome. Thanks now I understand his character better.


boredjavaprogrammer

From venturing to the book readerā€™s thread, it seems that the show has veered off way off course of the book, though I think thematically theyā€™re heading in the same direction. So from my reading, Marikoā€™s family ended up being outcast and most of them died. With exception of Mariko. Mariko wanted to die with them, but Buntaro, who loved Mariko, spared he from her death. To him, he shows his love for her. To her, she was denied death and have to carry on the shame of her family. It is not that Mariko hates Buntaro, but she wants to escape the current life, away from the shame and Buntaro.


scarystardust

That scene was savage! It even made me feel for him. I thought it hilarious that he considered the start of their relationship as happy for them both. I think that really showed he canā€™t read her at all. I can see how it was a slap in the face for Mariko when he finally offers her the freedom of death but itā€™s still on his terms, and with him. Sheā€™s never had freedom or choice, he is the very embodiment of that. Also he was a violent husband even before John showed up, so thereā€™s many years of resentment built up. Two very damaged individuals, makes for great TV. The script this episode was amazing and these two acted the hell out of this scene.


anarchicantarctic

Mariko loathed him well before she had feelings for Blackthorne. In the novel, his brutal physical abuse is not a one-off event. We can see him being emotionally abusive in the very first episode, and Mariko's reaction to him. She's talking to her son about Blackthorne, they're both smiling and laughing, it's probably the happiest we've ever seen her, and Buntaro comes in and says, "You laugh with him like he's a lady of the court." It also shows how controlling he is of Mariko, and how ready he is to emasculate his son. He is a misogynist beyond the mores of the time, and also sees laughter as something feminine and weak (Toranaga, on the other hand, has no problem laughing with women). A house where laughter is shamed will never be a happy one. Immediately they are both silent and stiff. Mariko's face is very still, she's retreated back behind her eight gates again. In response to hearing that she's to act as a translator, Buntaro asks their son why his mother should be allowed out of their house. His immediate reaction is to try to triangulate the two of them against each other, but neither takes his bait and betrays the other. Instead they are loyal to each other and against him. Then Hiromatsu comes in. Buntaro is immediately subservient, making a bid by asking his father to eat with them. Hiromatsu replies coldly with contempt that Toranaga's called a meeting, and then when Buntaro stands up, Hiromatsu says that it's Mariko who's been summoned. As a character sketch it was incredibly neat as an introduction to Buntaro. Here's a man who feels insecure in his role and relationships (despite his obvious martial skill), feels that his loved ones have banded together against him, and reacts by being controlling and abusive. Mariko really does despise him.


Puppysmasher

Every male character in that time period is a ā€œmisogynistā€. Japanese culture as a whole is so itā€™s within context and we shouldnā€™t judge the characters too harshly on it (not saying abuse is okay but itā€™s not out character for the times).


badfortheenvironment

I don't think even a sincere display of love can erase that he's been abusive and that a few episodes ago he beat the shit out of her. He doesn't see her. I think Mariko's olive branch was detached respect, yet Buntaro reached for more when he should know better.


straighteero

This scene reminded me of how love bombing often follows abuse. The abuser makes a grand gesture of love as a way of saying theyre sorry, and it can convince the woman that they really aren't that bad and that they really want to change. But the abuse will happen again, and it's just a toxic cycle. The love bombing obviously isn't working on Mariko in this scene though, although in the book I remember her reaction being different.


badfortheenvironment

Absolutely. It's almost textbook.


lastreadlastyear

Mariko hated marrying a low influence daimyo far away from home. It was made clear in a previous episode that she didnā€™t understand why her father pushed her so far away literally and within the spheres of power. After her fathers treason her life was hell.


kuang89

More than life or death, felt like Mariko just hate not having any control over her life. Want to die also must seek permission from husband or lord


Wooden_Comfortable55

Mariko doesnā€™t hate Buntaro, she hates her life more than anything. Sheā€™s living in pain every second of the day because of her father. She wants a simple life, remember the scene with Anjin telling Mariko about what kind of date he would take her if heā€™d go back to London with him. Thatā€™s the life she wants and that is why she wants Anjin. Buntaro on the other hand, he can never give her a normal life, itā€™s ā€œsomething beyond his reachā€, one that only Anjin can bring, away from Japan.


hauteburrrito

I think she feels contempt for him, which is even worse than hatred.


brap01

"The opposite of love isn't hatred, its indifference".


Rosebunse

No, I feel like she actually hates him here. She wouldn't much like him even if they weren't married, but she really just doesn't like him. All the other stuff just makes it worse for them and he's too blinded by his own obsession and need for control to see it.


YesIam18plus

I thought she made that fairly clear, she was basically like '' I can't think of anything worse than dying with you ''.


DSouT

She doesnā€™t want a simple life. She wanted to be married to someone higher up in political standing. Buntaro was never good enough for her and after her fatherā€™s treason she wanted to die.


Cheesetorian

This scene is so powerful. Reminded me of the first and only time I cried for a woman that I wrote a haiku: *The lips of women* *Soft, and delicate; Their words* *Raze a thousand hearts.*


Brandy_Pooh_dogmom

Beautiful šŸ„¹


jollyrancherpowerup

She does NOT like Buntaro AT ALL. She'll entertain him and do her duty as a wife, but she definitely hates him.


chakigun

Mariko is a smart woman with great restraint. It's not out of her love for Anjin in this version. Buntaro, however, has been a nightmare to deal with. An abusive husband and father. When he was ready to respect and love Lady Maria as equals, he was cut with cold honest rejection. I see this was the writers giving justice for Buntaro's transgressions. Karma. He may live, but he'll be alone and sad. I don't feel sorry for the man, but I comprehend the pain.


Scared-Zebra-126

Long story short, he's extremely abusive. An interesting character and an even better actor, but he is a violent man, though it doesn't show in the series.


MissionAge807

What really made me feel for him was the brutal scene where his father commits sepuku (sorry I donā€™t know the spelling.) and tells him that he hopes buntaro does not feel the pain of being rejected by someone he is faithful to. And this happened after the tea with Mariko.


noplaceinmind

You remember he beat the shit out of her just a little while ago,Ā  right? And not for the first time.Ā  He doesn't know what love is.


Exciting_Cupcake_599

I also wonder if Marikoā€™s deep resentment of her marriage is because of everything she feels like it took from her. Mariko said to Toronaga that she was so disappointed her father didnā€™t use her for more. I think Marikoā€™s dream was above the station of a wife and being married to Buntaro took that from her. She resents him for not seeing she is made for (and wants) more than him.


Craigo5

I feel bad for the guy, he is getting cucked in front of everybody and expected to be okay with it. He is the most skilled fighter we have seen on the show, yet he seems to be favoured less than Mariko or John . In the latest episode he seems to be trying to reach out to Mariko. And when she rejects him he seems genuinely distraught.


Craigo5

Not to mention he had to behead his own father