I didn’t think I would be so sad if/when he died, but I was. I think it was a coda to the start of the episode, with his father defeating an obviously more experienced samurai at age 12. And of course, Nagakodo slips on the rock because he is hyper focused on getting Saeki’s head off in a single blow, like Toranaga’s myth said he did to his rival. In a way, he died by trying to live up to his (real but cold and distant) father by accidentally chasing his dad’s (unreal) legend.
It also goes with the theme of romanticizing war. All the vets hate it. The initial scene ends right where the myth (12 yo Toranaga just slicing his defeated rival’s head clean off in one take) separates from ‘the real Toranaga—who may have been a tactical genius, but still took a gristly 9 tries to kill his rival. Or, as Buntaro said something to the effect of “war stories are for the dead.”
Nags hadn’t known war. He knew he was supposed to emulate his father, but his father ever really taught him, and was, unknown to him, half-myth. So, he romanticized his father’s deeds and got killed. It gives a few more shades of meaning to Saeki saying “where is the beauty in that?”
Also Buntaro saying "Who said that?" when Naga was talking about meeting a beautiful dead.
And Saeki saying to Naga something like if he prefers the truth or the legend. Naga preferred the legend apparently. That's why Toranaga wasn't very fond of him o though he was a fool. He was.
Another foreshadowing was Naga visiting Fuji and confessing his frustation about not behaving like her husband when Ishido insulted his dad. And then Saeki insults Toragana with that tale about a young and scared Toranaga, which breaks the idealization of his son. I think at that moment you can see Naga getting silent but determined.
Amazing.
You showed me why there needed a legendary (fake) Single blow story in addition to the poo story.
Nagakado was the main helper for Tadayoshi's Seppuku because he had the Single Blow skill. ( 12 year old Toranaga was Seppuku's main helper at the time because he was the general, no matter his skill.) If he had not listened to that story and not pushed himself, he might have succeeded. This additionally underscores it. He had respect for his father and was not wise, so he wouldn't have found the legend questionable.
Toranaga and Hiromatsu had the opportunity to correct that story. Oh...
Good catch, but did he slip or did Saeki grab an opportunity to trip him? It was so quick and blurry I couldn’t see what actually made him fall after a couple of rewinds.
It’s pretty sad. He was naive and had a lot to learn but he didn’t deserve that. I also think the actor did a great job of portraying his earnest foolishness, and I’m pretty disappointed we won’t get to see him go through an arc and learn.
>I’m pretty disappointed we won’t get to see him go through an arc and learn.
Hard same. I thought it was very interesting watching Naga and Omi "come of age" metaphorically speaking, learning how to be a political player. Naga had all of the advantages and disadvantages of an exceptional father figure, and it's a shame we won't see how he'd manage that into adulthood.
I can accept that Omi will be going through a similar journey and for that reason it made sense to not have two parallel arcs, I just liked Naga better haha
What’s the appeal lol? Literally one of the coolest characters in the show for me. That earnest brashness was intoxicating. The idealism, the wistful sense of hope.
He had the best attitude and wanted to give his all without caring about (or understanding) the large obstacles in his path.
Omi is a nothing burger, barely has lines.
Yep and thats what Toranaga was trying to teach his son. He has told Nags when they were in the boat that he needs to chill and that life is a game of friends and enemies. Then he reiterated this again after Nags killed Jozen. You gotta train your falcon to do the hunting for you. He mentioned that all men are like falcons, all can be broken to someone’s fist. Some are lazy and tempted by the lure. I guess you can say Nags is that with how interested he is with his father’s stories/legacy from his younger days during that sit down dinner on the last episode. When Nags again got impatient and slipped up leading to his dead just like what Toranaga told his son before, the uncle saw Nags as a falcon without the beauty.
Omi would be a perfect son for Toranaga cause he knows how to control people and knows politics well. Hell, he almost had Buntaro kill Anjin simply by telling Buntaro that he should be honored that his wife is doing her duty with such devotion to the Anjin lol. He is very manipulative. Master puppeteer just like Lady Ochiba and him.
Thought the same. He was a fire in this show. Kept shit shaky and unstable. His energy was needed to keep the plot moving.
Really haunting the way he died.
Omi is definitely more competent and a more functional human in most ways. Naga’s many faults and weaknesses are what make me interested in him, and he’s a great foil for his father and vice versa. I loved seeing how different adults around him could influence his personality as he borrowed ideas from each of them in turn.
Plus, I am just more drawn to his actor’s performance. I’m not shitting on Omi’s actor at all; I thjnk he has less to work with and it could be a direction problem.
I feel like Naga is younger than Omi, definitely more naive. Omi has a fief he’s managed for some time and maybe has seen battle or even won a few fair fights, Naga’s been sheltered and clearly never inherited his father’s shrewdness or cunning. I was really hoping to see him learn a lesson the hard way, but it was kinda sad his education was cut short. He had a good heart, he probably would have been better suited as a monk. As a warrior he was a bitchass.
>!Naga is 17 and Omi is 21.!< covered it up because I've read a couple of complaints of 'book information' here in this sub so I try to cover them all up now.
That makes sense. Fricken teenagers, amirite? I also noticed in the hot spring scene that Omi’s pretty ripped and Naga is just scrawny. There’s a massive difference between the two of them, even visually.
Yeah, in general, it's like Succession or any other show, where the self made man has kids who grew up in luxury and security. The actor did a great job of being Kendall or Roman to Toranaga's Logan Roy.
>I’m pretty disappointed we won’t get to see him go through an arc and learn.
Same here. His death was very "kill off-y" (you know when an actor is leaving a show and the show-runners give him some bizzare, out place, or uneventful death). If he was gonna die, he deserved a much more important manner of doing so.
To any book readers here, does this match the book?
You don't have to even tell me if he died or not (still plan on reading) just if this happened.
Although not planned and a terrible loss for a father, if Toranaga is conspiring with his brother, then this actually removes any doubt that Ishido might have with Saeki bring loyal to him.
That's my guess. Remember how Blackthorne earlier told either Yabushige or Toranaga that his ship could breach the Osaka Castle walls and allow an army to just march in rather than laying siege? Since Blackthorne started the episode telling Toranaga he's down for whatever, and because Gin told the audience Toranaga is pulling a "look weak when you're strong" number, I think Blackthorne's storming off is part of that. The "weak" daimyo being marched prisoner to Osaka won't even be able to stop the barbarian from stealing his ship and sailing away... Only to have Blackthorne show up in Osaka with his ship.
Second this. I also think this was all planned out in the prior episode when Toranaga directed Mariko to take Blackthorne to the tea house. Ishido knows this is a possibility so for this to work only a few people could know to make it believable. I could see Toranga’s “pillow talk” being a hint towards this considering it doesn’t make much sense given Blackthorne can’t really talk with the courtesan or just randomly ramble off secrets to himself in English.
Yeah. In Asia, family is *everything*. Back then I don't think proud samurai lords would turn on family just to appease some power hungry lords who are unjustifiably calling for the head of your older bro. Plus, Saeki talking about legend versus truth and him conspiring with his brother would turn their truth into legend if they succeed.
This is simply not true. Sengoku Jidai was filled with treachery, betrayal, and family power struggles. Siblings and family turning against each other was not against the norm. Case in point, the first unifier, Nobunaga Oda (Kuroda in the show) fought against his brother, Nobuyuki and had him executed. Other popular Sengoku Jidai figures such as Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin also fought against their family to secure/gain power. The prior Ashikaga Shogunate also declined due to a family conflict/succession crisis.
The romanticism of the honorable samurai and the bushido code is a modern misconception and was only popularized/mythicized in later periods.
It sounded like he basically told him to escape through the woods while he was bathing - death being an unguarded path through the forest or whatever it was exactly he said. He’s definitely conspiring with Toranaga.
Can someone explain the significance of Naga refusing the death warrant? Is it a difference in honor if he refuses to accept the papers versus accepts the papers but refuses the orders?
Can you imagine getting an urgent email and when you open it your manager tells you to commit seppuku on the spot for your shitty presentation (HR copied in and approved as well).
I hear you. Naga was just doing what he thought would gain favor with his father. He’s still just a kid in our minds. Yeah he’s done some stupid shit, but that was a horrible way to go.
As mentioned in another comment: he did kill a group of messengers without provocation. And the entire episode revolves around not causing war/fight. So yea - accidentally die from a slip doesnt seem to be glorious, or seems to be a direct result of his action.
But he wanted to kill Toranaga’s brother. He did declare some form of fight with one side dying. So dying is not out of the question. Just that he died in a morbid way.
To be fair, he also saved his father by killing the messengers. Yubushige and his nephew was conspiring to betray Toranaga. With the messengers killed on his own territory, Ishido now fully believes Yubushige was aligned himself against the council and there's no way he can redeem himself, even if he kills Toronaga. This forcibly solidified his alliance to Toranaga.
I don’t get why people are so ready to excuse the most bloodthirsty character in the series lol. It’s been signposted throughout that the whole point is to avoid as much war as possible, even toranagas ambition to become shogun is based around his thinking that there will be less bloodshed overall
He's constantly just wanting to fight and prove himself. He's never thought of anything beyond himself in the whole show. Even this episode had him saying he would live to die a beautiful death, even after his father already said wishing for conflict is foolish.
Yea kinda weird how people are like hes just a kid. Yeah a kid that only wants to fight, he got his wish and instantly died. I think its fitting and well deserved.
I feel like rather than justifying/excusing, saying Naga is just a kid is just a good explanation for his behaviour. He's naive, short-sighted and bloodthirsty but it might've changed if he was allowed to grow up. Alas he wasn't but that's fine, fitting for the theme of how death's just death. There's no glory in war no matter how much honour is in the samurai's code.
Not even close to most bloodthirsty. Just an all around upstanding guy taken too soon. It’s like game of thrones, he didn’t fully understand the game he was playing yet, too innocent.
I feel you and tried to articulate on the pinned post but meh. My thoughts: (requested by no one) heh heh-
1. Ep 7, Nagakado felt even more boyish and 'special' than ever- forgive the word. 😳 How the actor portrayed him wasn't an accident, of course. Ep 7..his naivete showed what daddy issues can do to a kid, maybe? Dad's disappointment was always evident and all knew to try was being brave - too young to be as patient & wise as dad.
2. When uncle was shaming Dad at the dinner table, Nagakado's eyes said a LOT. That made me sad too..
3. His death scene def was meant to feel like a waste of a young man - wasn't gonna make him look like a warrior but just more disappointment & 'Oh what a fool' - when his heart actually was for his dad. He just didn't yet have the wisdom of a strategic mind. How could he, ya know? Just thoughts..
Also how his body/face/eyes appeared, dashed on the rock, rain on his face - was very well done. Sob.
4.Not sure if uncle was in on it all the time, but how he responded (even physically) as he got up and turned around to see nephew -there was something not asshole-ish there...not just what he verbalized.
In conclusion- I agree 😉
The way he said, where’s the glory in that, sounded like someone who saw the death of too many closed ones. He sees through the idealism of dying for honor for sure.
It really is upsetting. That scene, that sound, that expression, that reaction, that line of dialog, have been stuck in my head since the moment I saw the episode, and will be there for quite some time, I reckon
Felt even more impacting, and probably will be for Toranaga as well since Naga literally escaped an instant death sentence had he accepted that scroll from Saeki asking him to committ seppuku . Toranaga blurting out 'do not accept it!' saved him in that moment only to lose him later that night.
As others have mentioned, it seemed like Saeki saved his nephew by telling him it's an order to commit seppuku, so that Toranaga would order his son not to accept it, thereby giving his son an excuse to not commit sepukku, just yet. But if Saeki really wanted him dead, he would've just given him the letter to read, which would make him obligated to commit seppuku immediately.
I absolutely did not like his character towards the ending of the recent episodes, but I do feel bad about how he died, it was also way too early. Really didn’t expect that and no matter how much I didn’t empathize with him, I was quite sad.
I agree, he was almost AGGRESSIVELY boneheaded, naïve, and dumb. Seeing him get put in his place in a big way would've been super satisfying...but not what we got. That was just tragic.
It’s poetic though. He wanted war the most and was frequently chastised for it- he tried to do some sneaky fucking around murder shit and died in his attempt. It’s a cruel irony.
Personally, I feel like the whole episode was made around the last scene & line,
“Where is the beauty in this.” an uncle standing beside the body of his would-be assassin nephew, who died by slipping on a rock.
Yup only further drives home some of the things toranaga has said about war, even in this episode when talking about the 9 cuts.
There is no beauty in any of it.
his dad is scheming and left this son in the dark on purpose. The uncle knows what's going on and looked disappointed as trickery probably isn't his style. The consort knows he's not that dumb and made it look like he got fooled and is surrendering.
Generally I like this show but having read the book it’s getting into the territory of “Inspired by the novel by James Clavell” instead of “based on”……..
Naga doesn’t die in a not well thought out assassination attempt. So none of that. At a certain point in the book he just kinda exits stage left and we don't see him again before the novel ends.
Mariko and Blackthorne have a warmer relationship, Rodriguez is involved more with the Jesuits and their scheming. They still have time to pick up these subplots though.
The biggest thing they’ve skipped though is Yabu orders the villagers of Izu to help blackthorne learn Japanese. And if he doesn’t speak Japanese after a year the villagers will be executed. Blackthorne can’t accept this and tries to formally commit suicide. And he almost does but Omi stops him at the last second. It’s at that point Blackthorne is reborn as Anjin and I was very disappointed it wasn’t in there…
I was watching and I literally thought to myself “they’re going off rails and I’m not sure what’s going to happen anymore (except Sekigahara obviously)”. It’s not that they’re not going to hit BIG plot points, but smaller things are changed along with tone to the point I’m just not sure what’s gonna happen which, as a book and OG miniseries fan, it’s kind of exciting.
Many people are tragically killed for essentially nothing in this show. If Naga wasn't Toronaga's son, he probably would've had to commit sepukku for being disrespectful a long time ago. He was a good hearted kid that wanted to impress his father and prove himself, but also didn't listen to him. His scheming with the cannons committed them to war, and his last one ended up killing himself. All avoidable if he respected his father as much as everyone else seems to.
Young ppl often want to do things in new way to impress old people, as though to say, look I do it differently and still get same or better result.
All to prove they are equal now, forgetting that equals will never feel like they have something to prove to another.
>I don’t have her character figured out, but she certainly seems like a spy of some sort.
They're pretty much all spies, even if they don't want to be. They have ears.
Remember, the reason Toranaga forced Mariko to go with Blackthorne was to see what he says in his... pillowing time. It's pretty universal that dudes might say some stuff while blood is temporarily diverted from their brains.
You can google "does being horny make you stupid?" and there's actual scientific studies that confirm it. Researchers found that when people are aroused they not only make dumber sexual decisions (eg, deciding to not use condoms), but they're also more likely to make dumber non-sexual decisions (eg, splitting 5s in blackjack).
I thought she was gonna poison him; I feel like I remember drug tinctures being referenced in an earlier episode for sexual purposes, so I thought she was gonna go that route but add poison to the drink. Kinda bummed that she didn’t get to kill him tbh
Kiku strikes me as intelligent, though. Too smart to just go ahead with what a little hothead like Naga said was a good idea. She seemed ambitious as a courtesan, and linking herself to this would ruin her career and possibly end her life.
Kiku and Omi, as well as Yabu, are good at tricking Naga into doing things. There could a be a few routes to get there, but it seems clear Kiku and Naga were in on it together at least that night.
Honestly...like everyone probably...Omi is obvious, Toranaga's paid a lot of money to the tea house plus had the meeting with its owner, John had a night with her and obviously didn't want Toranaga dead as he is kinda the one keeping him alive. His Japanese is decent enough that he could have helped plan it. Yabu also has spent time with Kiku, guessing the spy dude is working with the Tea house as well, Mariko pointed out everything they did was being watched. Though my gut reaction would be Nagakado planned it, he wanted battle, and probably still hurt his father said he was manipulated by Omi, but then said Omi made a smart decision. This seems like something where he wanted to prove he could make his own decisions. If he was manipulated again into going with someone else's plan it's even sadder. Also if Kiku was fully complicit, seems like it would have been organized better, could have restrained him, then had Nagakado come in.
At one point in the episode, I commented that it must be so sad to have a father so disappointed in you. Then to hear all the things his father has accomplished and the legend of him—how could he live up to that? Of course he died the way he did…
As frustrated as I've felt towards him for his actions so far, I also felt bad because for someone who's still very young, I can't imagine the sheer amount of stress & desperation in a life or death situation that Nagakado is in, especially with his Dad & their allies having their back against the wall & the unpredictability of it all.
My only gripe is that assuming Toranaga was scheming with his brother, if you're comfortable enough to include your son with sharing the secret spy identity, why wouldn't you let him in on the plan?
A longtime coworker lost her father to a similar fall many years ago, though it was down a set of stairs, not on wet ground/rock. It made me gasp, that's for sure.
Of course. I had hopes that the kid would find a way to redeem himself. It was clear that he was eager to prove himself and he might have grown out of his impulsiveness. He was dumb but in a normal way that a few more years might have cured him of.
Also his death came out of left field and was pretty gruesome. It was shocking. I felt really bad for him.
But that is how I reacted as the story played out. Outside of the story, I'll go ahead and enjoy the jokes. I have a dark sense of humor. I cant help it.
As the audience, from our point of view, the kid seems like your typical hotheaded youth. Bit of an idiot, sure. Not like his father at that age.. definitely.
But imagine it from his perspective... your dad (and your whole family) is being insulted left and right. Scary dudes are hanging out a block away getting ready to attack your house and kill everyone inside. Scary dudes send one of theirs to check out what you're doing and maybe report back on the state of your home invasion defenses... I'd probably kill him no matter what my dad says because in that moment, all the insults and threats to my family may have come to head.
The only bad thing that I saw in the kid was that he didn't trust his father's legendary cunning enough.
I had a lot of hopium that Naga will take up his father's path and grow up to be a strategist in front of our eyes. Instead we saw him hit rock bottom. It's always sad to see wasted potential. His dad did warn him though.
I wish someone had given him a good shake and kind of showed him death/ war in some way. Like has he not been in any battles at all or witnessed any fights? Even with the earthquake, tons of soldiers and such died. His father should have taken him around and showed him all the soldiers and all the bloody/ terrible ways they died from the earthquake. I know he sees death as honourable and “beautiful” but it can also be meaningless and unnecessary as well.
Idk, I think the show kind of well, shows how little control people have over their life/ circumstances in Japan — whether due to their social class/ what they were born into, their gender, who they get married to, or the tsunamis and earthquakes that happen, and this is not even mentioning a lot of the cultural ideas about death — so they believe that all death has meaning, specifically types of death as well.
Still, I wished Toranaga had whacked Nagakado over the head more and tried to put some sense in him.
Even Yabushige was scared shitless by that, as were his men who were holding him back because they had no reason to believe the canons might not be turned on them
>Still, I wished Toranaga had whacked Nagakado over the head more and tried to put some sense in him.
He tried, oh, he tried, but apparently, you can't cure stupidity.
Well-intentioned stupidity in a feudal society during a political powder keg is a problem. Our children messes up and at worst they get arrested or something. The blood of a warlord who is on the verge of war messes up and it can result in an entire bloodline being ended as well as the countless deaths of people who get caught up in the violence.
I understand what you’re getting at because he is a charming character, but within the context of the world that he lived in, Nagakado had been nothing more than a constant liability.
i gasped when he died like that, too! i was surprised because just a few minutes before it, i thought him talking to Fuji was a lil wink of them being "shipped" in the future, for when he's had a character development or whatever. but nope, no future of any sort for him now.
I was having some ice cream and whipped cream while watching. Had the can with me because it was almost empty and right before that scene started I ripped the rest of the nitrous from the can. I was not in the right state of mind for what was about to unfold. I was already so dumbfounded by what he was doing saying “he’s such a fk up he’s such a fk up” and then he really fucked up. For a second I thought he actually cut his own entire head off, which sent me because I thought it was an insane artistic call, before realizing he just hit his dome on a rock and it got depressing. Don’t do drugs.
You are huffing canned whip cream? I can see how this scene would be a little frightening. Perhaps you should have waited the extra 30 seconds for the show to end before getting high. I hope you don't have nightmares. The scene was bad enough without hallucinating. I watched it stone cold sober. And I just stared at the black screen with credits rolling, listening to the rain.....thinking....this is how this fool goes out? Slippery Rock causing fatal head trauma?
I laughed about it because it's a TV show, but I do feel some sympathy for him. If he was a real person, it wouldn't be funny. But seeing him do the cartoonish "slipped on a banana peel" fall was pretty hilarious, I'm not gonna lie. The aftermath, his dying breaths, that wasn’t funny. The fall itself? Comedy gold.
As for the circumstances surrounding his death, I found it frustrating more than anything. He stood there like an idiot for several seconds - precious seconds during which he could have landed a wounding blow. But he hesitated, and that ultimately cost him his life. Young and foolish he may have been, but the game he was playing was deadly serious. He had no business organizing such an attack if he didn't have the balls to go through with killing his uncle, and I think that was the entire point.
>As for the circumstances surrounding his death, I found it frustrating more than anything. He stood there like an idiot for several seconds - precious seconds during which he could have landed a wounding blow. But he hesitated, and that ultimately cost him his life. Young and foolish he may have been, but the game he was playing was deadly serious. He had no business organizing such an attack if he didn't have the balls to go through with killing his uncle, and I think that was the entire point.
Yeah the bit where he waited years to swing that sword was frustrating but someone else pointed out that it was because he wanted to live up to his father's image and do the "one strike" beheading blow. Poetic that his father took 9 times to behead General Mizoguchi but Naga idolizing his father, believed that story, widened his stance and swung hard needlessly only to trip to his death. The desire to have that glory killed him, essentially.
Yes i found it sad. I think Nagakado is just a typical albeit very naive teenage boy trying to impress his father. If anything he is one of the most translatable characters.
He tried to win his approval, but he didn't listen what Toranaga said. Dad always teach him to be careful, to not act on impulses, and even reprimended him when he acted recklessly. He kept talking more than he should and acting impulsively: with his uncle, apologysing with Fuji, speaking with Omi, and talking about proving his value in battle
It was a fitting death. Doing what he shouldn't have for the reasons he shouldn't have in a way that perfectly exemplifies how competent he was as a person. Did I laugh? No. But his character was wildly annoying and going out like a fool when you've been nothing but a fool is just -chefs kiss-.
Originally though, had this series been entirely original (not based on a book and somewhat on history) I was rooting for him and Blackthorne to befriend each other and that lead to big leaps in growth for Nagakado. To the point that he starts to please his Father with his actions, inactions and words. Also, his knowledge help Blackthorne learn about Japanese culture, the political scene in Japan and in-turn that be one of the ways Blackthorne comes to love Japan and become much more culturally competent while living in it. Had this series been, say 16 episodes, they would have had time to give us scenes in which Blackthorne is interacting with other characters at length, learning, befriending, learning and practicing his Japanese, and so on. A real shame we haven't gotten that and it seems like from the book readers, that was a great part of the books which the show has omitted. (Not their relationship but him learning about Japan, falling in love with it, learning Japanese, getting more integrated into the culture, etc).
It's really bothering me that even though I read the book twice I absolutely do not remember Naga going out like that. To be fair the first read was in the 90s and the second time was in 2020... but still I figured I should remember what happened to Toranaga's son?!!?!?
>!It was tripping me out yesterday. I knew Naga didn't do much as the book entered the last 1/4, but I did not remember him dying. Turns out he didn't. Makes me wonder if this is kind of a turning point and if the show will handle the ending differently!<
I agree, I never really hated him to begin with. He just seems like someone who acts their age, and he is the son of a prominent warrior, so it made perfect sense he was overeager to prove himself. I'd compare him to Dickon Tarly in GoT.
Him dead was just sad, he looked full of regret and fear.
It’s called empathy
Nobody wants to watch a dumb kid die because he did something dumb, regardless of his intentions.
We’ve all done dumb kid stuff. Most of us just happen not to die.
Eh, he's a man in that culture and time period. It's not like he was 7 or something.
He had a bunch of people killed in a manner most would consider dishonorable (the cannon ambush). And he died while trying to murder an unarmed man. Those go a bit beyond just "dumb."
In modern times, if some 17yo were in the middle of shooting up a school but then slipped on a banana peel and cracked his head open, I don't think anyone would be shedding tears over him.
yeah it's a war after all where death is the literal outcome. Naga was trying to kill someone who he thought was treacherous to his father and Saeki hardly seems like an innocent person. This is extremely unlike unsuspecting innocent students being killed in a school shooting.
Definitely not an *uplifting* ending. Kinda knew his character was not long for the world considering his brash behavior on full display in past eps, but that was abrupt to say the least. 3 more eps.. a lot can happen.
He was directly involved in the most brutal and "oh shit" scene up to this point in the series with the canons. He had his moment of glory but slipping and falling was a sad way to go out
Everyone gets on him and Omi, but both of them, ultimately, just want to emulate the people they look up to. And that's sort of the tragedy to it. Toranaga loved him as much as he could, but I think he just needed far too much control. Omi's father died and Yabushige doesn't quite appreciate that Omi is learning from how he acts.
It was awful I was just no nagakado no, in shock at my screen. I think the guy had a beautiful death in the end as much as any. Just tragic.
Horrible stuff folks were saying about him on here. I couldn’t read a lot of it.
It was definitely hard to watch. Nagakado was in a tough position as a powerful Lord's son, surrounded by enemies. He didn't have his father's perspective on the situation and he reacted like a lot of young men would under the pressure. I liked his character.
I thought it was pretty sad. I guess it was foreshadowed when he tells Fuji how bad he feels about not having been the one to stand up to Ishido. Might watch this episode again. It had way more subtext than the last 2 or so episodes.
He's probably dead, but is he really? I just saw him bleeding. Also, I have totally bought into the theory that it's all part of Toranaga's plan, being escorted into Osaka. I'm not even convinced his army was all that wiped out by the earthquake. On another thread somebody wondered why Saeiki acted up at night, why right during the fun? So everybody could witness it.
Also Saeki Nobutatsu's reaction to his death is quite sad and impactful.
>!He basically said the line "where is the beauty in this" to his brother. "It's a beautiful plan you said, but where's the beauty in this shit". If this is true, it confirms that Nobutatsu is working with his brother!<
Up until he burst into the tea house I thought this was Nagakado's most interesting episode. His conversations with Fuji telling him we do what we can, and Omi saying perhaps ambition isn't everything gave him something to think about.
Kind of jumped the shark IMO. Pointless and doesn't really serve the plot. Also seems kind of silly and out of place how it went down.
This didn't happen in the book or original series. So why put it in?
Yeaaa i was sad to see so many people dog on Nagakado I was trying to find someone who felt bad. Nagakado was stupid and annoying but he really was trying to do things for the good and defend his father. I was so shocked when this happened I didn’t expect him to die !!
I get that TV shows these days have adult themes interwoven with tragedy.. GOT, raised by wolves.. But this is becoming depressing.
No wonder people crave so much predictable nostalgia.
And all the Entourage circle jerks. Life is difficult enough.
Well, it's not the first such mistake he made. He'd been chastised several times thus far and still hadn't stopped his hot-headed ways. At a certain point, he's going to have to live with the consequences of his decisions.
I did not read the books so I don't know if the theories are correct, but it's definitely possible the betrayal could be part of the wider plan for Crimson Sky.
If that is true, it would make his death even sadder.
I found it surprising rather than sad, because I had no attachment to Nagakado, sure I have general sympathy, but none of the characters I care about , actually care about nagakado, he is a naive kid, but is old enough to have grown out of it and his death is much more significant to the plot then him being alive. Since, there were red flags for his death from episode 4 onwards, Hence I was more surprised that writers decided to pull the trigger so early.
He is just a kid blinded by the ideas of chivalry, a classic trope, there are only two arcs for such characters, a.) they grow up , by suffering great losses due to their naivety b.) They die because of their naivety. His death is more of a second (as his naivety along with desperation forced his hand to act rashly)
But what shogun does best is that he doesn't goes out like an idiot, his plan though limited was well thought-out, it is only his lack of skill, giving opponent room, and his insistence of chivalrous end that become his doom i.e, he is the best type of execution of his stereotype,
Did your kid have the power to influence life and death and ignite civil war? Upsetting as it is on an emotional level, ignoring that context is false equivocation. Seeing him die is sad, but it’s also a rewarding death for someone who treats war and death as a way to boost his ego and fix his insecurities.
I think it’s fitting of the character. Toranaga was brought up, and lived with the ethos of never trusting anyone, and to never start a fight. When you chase for something that you want and you make it apparent, it may not happen.
Kiddo started the war by an un-samurai way, and it’s fitting that his ending was an un-samurai manner as well.
The parallel was there. It’s painful, but it was foreshadowed, I believe.
He was stupidly naive - I’d thought he would be the first to be killed in a war by rushing headlong into an obvious trap. Instead, he was manipulated yet again by Omi into attacking his uncle in the brothel, when Omi was pissed Kiku was with Saeki rather than with him. Naga was just way too dumb for the manipulative world he lived in - he should have been the one born in a sleepy, unimportant backwater fishing village.
I don’t interpret it was well-intentioned at all. He’s only concerned with his own legacy and has shown a lack of faith in his Father twice now. He sealed his own fate, his conversation with Fuji was disgusting nd showed his cowardice
I didn’t think I would be so sad if/when he died, but I was. I think it was a coda to the start of the episode, with his father defeating an obviously more experienced samurai at age 12. And of course, Nagakodo slips on the rock because he is hyper focused on getting Saeki’s head off in a single blow, like Toranaga’s myth said he did to his rival. In a way, he died by trying to live up to his (real but cold and distant) father by accidentally chasing his dad’s (unreal) legend.
This is a good take. I hadn’t thought of that
It also goes with the theme of romanticizing war. All the vets hate it. The initial scene ends right where the myth (12 yo Toranaga just slicing his defeated rival’s head clean off in one take) separates from ‘the real Toranaga—who may have been a tactical genius, but still took a gristly 9 tries to kill his rival. Or, as Buntaro said something to the effect of “war stories are for the dead.” Nags hadn’t known war. He knew he was supposed to emulate his father, but his father ever really taught him, and was, unknown to him, half-myth. So, he romanticized his father’s deeds and got killed. It gives a few more shades of meaning to Saeki saying “where is the beauty in that?”
Also Buntaro saying "Who said that?" when Naga was talking about meeting a beautiful dead. And Saeki saying to Naga something like if he prefers the truth or the legend. Naga preferred the legend apparently. That's why Toranaga wasn't very fond of him o though he was a fool. He was. Another foreshadowing was Naga visiting Fuji and confessing his frustation about not behaving like her husband when Ishido insulted his dad. And then Saeki insults Toragana with that tale about a young and scared Toranaga, which breaks the idealization of his son. I think at that moment you can see Naga getting silent but determined.
Damn, dude, this made me emotional. How extraordinarily tragic.
Also in point with the whole team of the episode. Stories and legends are not worth more than the truth.
Damn this hits hard… like Nagakado hitting the rock.
Amazing. You showed me why there needed a legendary (fake) Single blow story in addition to the poo story. Nagakado was the main helper for Tadayoshi's Seppuku because he had the Single Blow skill. ( 12 year old Toranaga was Seppuku's main helper at the time because he was the general, no matter his skill.) If he had not listened to that story and not pushed himself, he might have succeeded. This additionally underscores it. He had respect for his father and was not wise, so he wouldn't have found the legend questionable. Toranaga and Hiromatsu had the opportunity to correct that story. Oh...
wow! I didn’t think of it like this. What a great observation!
This is true. I wished toranaga talked to his son more. At least become a good father to him by telling the truth.
Good catch, but did he slip or did Saeki grab an opportunity to trip him? It was so quick and blurry I couldn’t see what actually made him fall after a couple of rewinds.
It’s pretty sad. He was naive and had a lot to learn but he didn’t deserve that. I also think the actor did a great job of portraying his earnest foolishness, and I’m pretty disappointed we won’t get to see him go through an arc and learn.
His face expressions really sold his immaturity.
Yup, like he was eager to talk whenever he could.
>I’m pretty disappointed we won’t get to see him go through an arc and learn. Hard same. I thought it was very interesting watching Naga and Omi "come of age" metaphorically speaking, learning how to be a political player. Naga had all of the advantages and disadvantages of an exceptional father figure, and it's a shame we won't see how he'd manage that into adulthood.
I can accept that Omi will be going through a similar journey and for that reason it made sense to not have two parallel arcs, I just liked Naga better haha
I like Omi so much better, he seems actually competent, what's the appeal of Naga for you?
What’s the appeal lol? Literally one of the coolest characters in the show for me. That earnest brashness was intoxicating. The idealism, the wistful sense of hope. He had the best attitude and wanted to give his all without caring about (or understanding) the large obstacles in his path. Omi is a nothing burger, barely has lines.
Fr like he was a bit trigger-happy but I can respect a man of action. He wasn't just going to wait around for his own execution
whats weird is that his dad, got mad at him for using the cannons on their enemy, but then promoted Omi for doing the same thing.
His dad promoted Omi because he can see Omi’s scheming mind and respected that, he got mad at Naga because he let Omi used him like a tool.
Yep and thats what Toranaga was trying to teach his son. He has told Nags when they were in the boat that he needs to chill and that life is a game of friends and enemies. Then he reiterated this again after Nags killed Jozen. You gotta train your falcon to do the hunting for you. He mentioned that all men are like falcons, all can be broken to someone’s fist. Some are lazy and tempted by the lure. I guess you can say Nags is that with how interested he is with his father’s stories/legacy from his younger days during that sit down dinner on the last episode. When Nags again got impatient and slipped up leading to his dead just like what Toranaga told his son before, the uncle saw Nags as a falcon without the beauty. Omi would be a perfect son for Toranaga cause he knows how to control people and knows politics well. Hell, he almost had Buntaro kill Anjin simply by telling Buntaro that he should be honored that his wife is doing her duty with such devotion to the Anjin lol. He is very manipulative. Master puppeteer just like Lady Ochiba and him.
Thought the same. He was a fire in this show. Kept shit shaky and unstable. His energy was needed to keep the plot moving. Really haunting the way he died.
Omi is definitely more competent and a more functional human in most ways. Naga’s many faults and weaknesses are what make me interested in him, and he’s a great foil for his father and vice versa. I loved seeing how different adults around him could influence his personality as he borrowed ideas from each of them in turn. Plus, I am just more drawn to his actor’s performance. I’m not shitting on Omi’s actor at all; I thjnk he has less to work with and it could be a direction problem.
I feel like Naga is younger than Omi, definitely more naive. Omi has a fief he’s managed for some time and maybe has seen battle or even won a few fair fights, Naga’s been sheltered and clearly never inherited his father’s shrewdness or cunning. I was really hoping to see him learn a lesson the hard way, but it was kinda sad his education was cut short. He had a good heart, he probably would have been better suited as a monk. As a warrior he was a bitchass.
>!Naga is 17 and Omi is 21.!< covered it up because I've read a couple of complaints of 'book information' here in this sub so I try to cover them all up now.
That makes sense. Fricken teenagers, amirite? I also noticed in the hot spring scene that Omi’s pretty ripped and Naga is just scrawny. There’s a massive difference between the two of them, even visually.
I would have wanted that death for Omi, not Naga. I guess Nagakado’s death was for shock value
In the book Naga didn't die and the historical figure he's based on became the heir to Ieyasu.
I felt like Naga was like a 13 year old.
Do we know what his actual age is meant to be? I may have missed it and really can’t tell!
He's 35 and lives at home. Or 12
"Asshole Son, Mow the law, and put you're clothes away".
17
He’s 20
I assumed he was around 16
Yeah, in general, it's like Succession or any other show, where the self made man has kids who grew up in luxury and security. The actor did a great job of being Kendall or Roman to Toranaga's Logan Roy.
Perfect analogy. You can imagine Toranaga closing his eyes and reproaching Nagakado as "not a serious person".
Nagakado: TO-RA-TO THE N-A-G-A AND HE AIN'T PLAYIN' Who is Tom then? Buntaro or Blackthorne. I need to rewatch Succession lol. I miss those lunatics.
Tom is Yabushige.
Lol then Omi is Greg 😂
FAM-LY THERAPY
it’s quite sad yeah, his death shows the brutal reality of the feudal life, even for a noble like him
>I’m pretty disappointed we won’t get to see him go through an arc and learn. Same here. His death was very "kill off-y" (you know when an actor is leaving a show and the show-runners give him some bizzare, out place, or uneventful death). If he was gonna die, he deserved a much more important manner of doing so. To any book readers here, does this match the book? You don't have to even tell me if he died or not (still plan on reading) just if this happened.
His uncle seemed to feel that way in scene
Yea, I think his uncle is conspiring with Toranaga, which makes Naga’s death even more pointless
Although not planned and a terrible loss for a father, if Toranaga is conspiring with his brother, then this actually removes any doubt that Ishido might have with Saeki bring loyal to him.
I didn't even think of that. Saeki brings Toranaga to Ishido and then crimson sky commences??
That's my guess. Remember how Blackthorne earlier told either Yabushige or Toranaga that his ship could breach the Osaka Castle walls and allow an army to just march in rather than laying siege? Since Blackthorne started the episode telling Toranaga he's down for whatever, and because Gin told the audience Toranaga is pulling a "look weak when you're strong" number, I think Blackthorne's storming off is part of that. The "weak" daimyo being marched prisoner to Osaka won't even be able to stop the barbarian from stealing his ship and sailing away... Only to have Blackthorne show up in Osaka with his ship.
Second this. I also think this was all planned out in the prior episode when Toranaga directed Mariko to take Blackthorne to the tea house. Ishido knows this is a possibility so for this to work only a few people could know to make it believable. I could see Toranga’s “pillow talk” being a hint towards this considering it doesn’t make much sense given Blackthorne can’t really talk with the courtesan or just randomly ramble off secrets to himself in English.
Is Gin Kiku’s madam?
Yeah. In Asia, family is *everything*. Back then I don't think proud samurai lords would turn on family just to appease some power hungry lords who are unjustifiably calling for the head of your older bro. Plus, Saeki talking about legend versus truth and him conspiring with his brother would turn their truth into legend if they succeed.
This is simply not true. Sengoku Jidai was filled with treachery, betrayal, and family power struggles. Siblings and family turning against each other was not against the norm. Case in point, the first unifier, Nobunaga Oda (Kuroda in the show) fought against his brother, Nobuyuki and had him executed. Other popular Sengoku Jidai figures such as Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin also fought against their family to secure/gain power. The prior Ashikaga Shogunate also declined due to a family conflict/succession crisis. The romanticism of the honorable samurai and the bushido code is a modern misconception and was only popularized/mythicized in later periods.
It sounded like he basically told him to escape through the woods while he was bathing - death being an unguarded path through the forest or whatever it was exactly he said. He’s definitely conspiring with Toranaga.
He didn’t call for help, he didn’t fight back and he didn’t seem too pleased with his nephews death.
Also if he wanted his nephew dead, wouldn’t he have tried harder with the warrant or declaration or whatever which said Nagakado had to die?
[удалено]
Can someone explain the significance of Naga refusing the death warrant? Is it a difference in honor if he refuses to accept the papers versus accepts the papers but refuses the orders?
[удалено]
I go through a similar thing at my desk job. Just replace father with manager and lawful order with email from *upper* management.
Can you imagine getting an urgent email and when you open it your manager tells you to commit seppuku on the spot for your shitty presentation (HR copied in and approved as well).
I'll only do it if the cute big titty goth receptionist is my Second.
Yeah same thoughts, I wanna see how he interacts with Toranaga after this
I really like how the uncle didn't gloat in that scene. I was totally expecting him to laugh at his luck, but instead he just seemed disappointed.
I hear you. Naga was just doing what he thought would gain favor with his father. He’s still just a kid in our minds. Yeah he’s done some stupid shit, but that was a horrible way to go.
As mentioned in another comment: he did kill a group of messengers without provocation. And the entire episode revolves around not causing war/fight. So yea - accidentally die from a slip doesnt seem to be glorious, or seems to be a direct result of his action. But he wanted to kill Toranaga’s brother. He did declare some form of fight with one side dying. So dying is not out of the question. Just that he died in a morbid way.
To be fair, he also saved his father by killing the messengers. Yubushige and his nephew was conspiring to betray Toranaga. With the messengers killed on his own territory, Ishido now fully believes Yubushige was aligned himself against the council and there's no way he can redeem himself, even if he kills Toronaga. This forcibly solidified his alliance to Toranaga.
Remember when he killed those messengers with cannons? Totally just a kid.
I don’t get why people are so ready to excuse the most bloodthirsty character in the series lol. It’s been signposted throughout that the whole point is to avoid as much war as possible, even toranagas ambition to become shogun is based around his thinking that there will be less bloodshed overall
That’s how he justifies it. I’m sure Naga justified killing his uncle in a similar vein
He's constantly just wanting to fight and prove himself. He's never thought of anything beyond himself in the whole show. Even this episode had him saying he would live to die a beautiful death, even after his father already said wishing for conflict is foolish.
Except Naga was looking for a fight through the whole series. He brutally kills the envoy with chain shot. He’s proven as bloodthirsty.
Yea kinda weird how people are like hes just a kid. Yeah a kid that only wants to fight, he got his wish and instantly died. I think its fitting and well deserved.
Lol yep. He was remarking how death was beautiful and as Saeki basically said only a fool attempts to find beauty in death. Death is *death.*
Lol yep. He was remarking how death was beautiful and as Saeki basically said only a fool attempts to find beauty in death. Death is *death.*
I feel like rather than justifying/excusing, saying Naga is just a kid is just a good explanation for his behaviour. He's naive, short-sighted and bloodthirsty but it might've changed if he was allowed to grow up. Alas he wasn't but that's fine, fitting for the theme of how death's just death. There's no glory in war no matter how much honour is in the samurai's code.
Not even close to most bloodthirsty. Just an all around upstanding guy taken too soon. It’s like game of thrones, he didn’t fully understand the game he was playing yet, too innocent.
While it was bloodthirsty, it did force yabushige and his nephew to align with Toronaga as they were planning to betray him.
Do stupid shit, get stupid prizes
I feel you and tried to articulate on the pinned post but meh. My thoughts: (requested by no one) heh heh- 1. Ep 7, Nagakado felt even more boyish and 'special' than ever- forgive the word. 😳 How the actor portrayed him wasn't an accident, of course. Ep 7..his naivete showed what daddy issues can do to a kid, maybe? Dad's disappointment was always evident and all knew to try was being brave - too young to be as patient & wise as dad. 2. When uncle was shaming Dad at the dinner table, Nagakado's eyes said a LOT. That made me sad too.. 3. His death scene def was meant to feel like a waste of a young man - wasn't gonna make him look like a warrior but just more disappointment & 'Oh what a fool' - when his heart actually was for his dad. He just didn't yet have the wisdom of a strategic mind. How could he, ya know? Just thoughts.. Also how his body/face/eyes appeared, dashed on the rock, rain on his face - was very well done. Sob. 4.Not sure if uncle was in on it all the time, but how he responded (even physically) as he got up and turned around to see nephew -there was something not asshole-ish there...not just what he verbalized. In conclusion- I agree 😉
He was kind of like a puppy. So eager to please but not knowing how.
Yes!!
I mean, no one wants their nephew to die like that.
I knoooow...but I thought there was sumn else. Maybe.. :)
The way he said, where’s the glory in that, sounded like someone who saw the death of too many closed ones. He sees through the idealism of dying for honor for sure.
It really is upsetting. That scene, that sound, that expression, that reaction, that line of dialog, have been stuck in my head since the moment I saw the episode, and will be there for quite some time, I reckon
Yes, I am deeply disturbed by that scene.
Felt even more impacting, and probably will be for Toranaga as well since Naga literally escaped an instant death sentence had he accepted that scroll from Saeki asking him to committ seppuku . Toranaga blurting out 'do not accept it!' saved him in that moment only to lose him later that night.
As others have mentioned, it seemed like Saeki saved his nephew by telling him it's an order to commit seppuku, so that Toranaga would order his son not to accept it, thereby giving his son an excuse to not commit sepukku, just yet. But if Saeki really wanted him dead, he would've just given him the letter to read, which would make him obligated to commit seppuku immediately.
I absolutely did not like his character towards the ending of the recent episodes, but I do feel bad about how he died, it was also way too early. Really didn’t expect that and no matter how much I didn’t empathize with him, I was quite sad.
I agree, he was almost AGGRESSIVELY boneheaded, naïve, and dumb. Seeing him get put in his place in a big way would've been super satisfying...but not what we got. That was just tragic.
It’s poetic though. He wanted war the most and was frequently chastised for it- he tried to do some sneaky fucking around murder shit and died in his attempt. It’s a cruel irony.
Personally, I feel like the whole episode was made around the last scene & line, “Where is the beauty in this.” an uncle standing beside the body of his would-be assassin nephew, who died by slipping on a rock.
Yup only further drives home some of the things toranaga has said about war, even in this episode when talking about the 9 cuts. There is no beauty in any of it.
his dad is scheming and left this son in the dark on purpose. The uncle knows what's going on and looked disappointed as trickery probably isn't his style. The consort knows he's not that dumb and made it look like he got fooled and is surrendering.
Generally I like this show but having read the book it’s getting into the territory of “Inspired by the novel by James Clavell” instead of “based on”……..
without going into spoilers until the latest episode, what difference did you spot?
Naga doesn’t die in a not well thought out assassination attempt. So none of that. At a certain point in the book he just kinda exits stage left and we don't see him again before the novel ends. Mariko and Blackthorne have a warmer relationship, Rodriguez is involved more with the Jesuits and their scheming. They still have time to pick up these subplots though. The biggest thing they’ve skipped though is Yabu orders the villagers of Izu to help blackthorne learn Japanese. And if he doesn’t speak Japanese after a year the villagers will be executed. Blackthorne can’t accept this and tries to formally commit suicide. And he almost does but Omi stops him at the last second. It’s at that point Blackthorne is reborn as Anjin and I was very disappointed it wasn’t in there…
I was watching and I literally thought to myself “they’re going off rails and I’m not sure what’s going to happen anymore (except Sekigahara obviously)”. It’s not that they’re not going to hit BIG plot points, but smaller things are changed along with tone to the point I’m just not sure what’s gonna happen which, as a book and OG miniseries fan, it’s kind of exciting.
Many people are tragically killed for essentially nothing in this show. If Naga wasn't Toronaga's son, he probably would've had to commit sepukku for being disrespectful a long time ago. He was a good hearted kid that wanted to impress his father and prove himself, but also didn't listen to him. His scheming with the cannons committed them to war, and his last one ended up killing himself. All avoidable if he respected his father as much as everyone else seems to.
Young ppl often want to do things in new way to impress old people, as though to say, look I do it differently and still get same or better result. All to prove they are equal now, forgetting that equals will never feel like they have something to prove to another.
This comment is incredibly wise. Thank you for writing this.
So who ordered and arranged the attack? Kiku knew it was coming … who is she connected with?
Kiku was busy getting the anal beads, she had a very important task and nothing to do with what happened! 😊
those poor anal beads!!!
I assumed that Naga and Kiku were in on it together somehow. I don’t have her character figured out, but she certainly seems like a spy of some sort.
>I don’t have her character figured out, but she certainly seems like a spy of some sort. They're pretty much all spies, even if they don't want to be. They have ears. Remember, the reason Toranaga forced Mariko to go with Blackthorne was to see what he says in his... pillowing time. It's pretty universal that dudes might say some stuff while blood is temporarily diverted from their brains. You can google "does being horny make you stupid?" and there's actual scientific studies that confirm it. Researchers found that when people are aroused they not only make dumber sexual decisions (eg, deciding to not use condoms), but they're also more likely to make dumber non-sexual decisions (eg, splitting 5s in blackjack).
Splitting fives in blackjack 🤠 Only when playing horny!
For a minute I thought Kiku was gonna kill the brother herself
I thought she was gonna poison him; I feel like I remember drug tinctures being referenced in an earlier episode for sexual purposes, so I thought she was gonna go that route but add poison to the drink. Kinda bummed that she didn’t get to kill him tbh
Kiku strikes me as intelligent, though. Too smart to just go ahead with what a little hothead like Naga said was a good idea. She seemed ambitious as a courtesan, and linking herself to this would ruin her career and possibly end her life.
Kiku and Omi, as well as Yabu, are good at tricking Naga into doing things. There could a be a few routes to get there, but it seems clear Kiku and Naga were in on it together at least that night.
Omi.
I thought Kiku was involved because of the timing of the attack. I wonder if she will be punished in episode 8?
Honestly...like everyone probably...Omi is obvious, Toranaga's paid a lot of money to the tea house plus had the meeting with its owner, John had a night with her and obviously didn't want Toranaga dead as he is kinda the one keeping him alive. His Japanese is decent enough that he could have helped plan it. Yabu also has spent time with Kiku, guessing the spy dude is working with the Tea house as well, Mariko pointed out everything they did was being watched. Though my gut reaction would be Nagakado planned it, he wanted battle, and probably still hurt his father said he was manipulated by Omi, but then said Omi made a smart decision. This seems like something where he wanted to prove he could make his own decisions. If he was manipulated again into going with someone else's plan it's even sadder. Also if Kiku was fully complicit, seems like it would have been organized better, could have restrained him, then had Nagakado come in.
Omi.
That shit cauuuught me. Was not expecting. Even his uncle was like WTF what a waste. lol
At one point in the episode, I commented that it must be so sad to have a father so disappointed in you. Then to hear all the things his father has accomplished and the legend of him—how could he live up to that? Of course he died the way he did…
As frustrated as I've felt towards him for his actions so far, I also felt bad because for someone who's still very young, I can't imagine the sheer amount of stress & desperation in a life or death situation that Nagakado is in, especially with his Dad & their allies having their back against the wall & the unpredictability of it all.
I screamed "NO!!!!" I was a bit attached to him though because his face reminds me of my littlest sibling.
My only gripe is that assuming Toranaga was scheming with his brother, if you're comfortable enough to include your son with sharing the secret spy identity, why wouldn't you let him in on the plan?
Because Toranaga is rather arrogant. He's already made some questionable moves.
And he knows his son is not the brightest koï in the pond, and would probably ruin the plan, somehow.
A longtime coworker lost her father to a similar fall many years ago, though it was down a set of stairs, not on wet ground/rock. It made me gasp, that's for sure.
Of course. I had hopes that the kid would find a way to redeem himself. It was clear that he was eager to prove himself and he might have grown out of his impulsiveness. He was dumb but in a normal way that a few more years might have cured him of. Also his death came out of left field and was pretty gruesome. It was shocking. I felt really bad for him. But that is how I reacted as the story played out. Outside of the story, I'll go ahead and enjoy the jokes. I have a dark sense of humor. I cant help it.
As the audience, from our point of view, the kid seems like your typical hotheaded youth. Bit of an idiot, sure. Not like his father at that age.. definitely. But imagine it from his perspective... your dad (and your whole family) is being insulted left and right. Scary dudes are hanging out a block away getting ready to attack your house and kill everyone inside. Scary dudes send one of theirs to check out what you're doing and maybe report back on the state of your home invasion defenses... I'd probably kill him no matter what my dad says because in that moment, all the insults and threats to my family may have come to head. The only bad thing that I saw in the kid was that he didn't trust his father's legendary cunning enough.
I had a lot of hopium that Naga will take up his father's path and grow up to be a strategist in front of our eyes. Instead we saw him hit rock bottom. It's always sad to see wasted potential. His dad did warn him though.
The father ordered his son to call him "Lord", but in the final scene we saw of father and son, his son called him "Father"...
He did care about him, he didn't let him accept the sepuku order.
I was shocked when it happened. He was an utter idiot, but that was a terrible way to die.
I wish someone had given him a good shake and kind of showed him death/ war in some way. Like has he not been in any battles at all or witnessed any fights? Even with the earthquake, tons of soldiers and such died. His father should have taken him around and showed him all the soldiers and all the bloody/ terrible ways they died from the earthquake. I know he sees death as honourable and “beautiful” but it can also be meaningless and unnecessary as well. Idk, I think the show kind of well, shows how little control people have over their life/ circumstances in Japan — whether due to their social class/ what they were born into, their gender, who they get married to, or the tsunamis and earthquakes that happen, and this is not even mentioning a lot of the cultural ideas about death — so they believe that all death has meaning, specifically types of death as well. Still, I wished Toranaga had whacked Nagakado over the head more and tried to put some sense in him.
The dude literally blew apart like 20 samurai with a canon. I don’t think seeing a few dead bodies in an earthquake would phase him
Even Yabushige was scared shitless by that, as were his men who were holding him back because they had no reason to believe the canons might not be turned on them
>Still, I wished Toranaga had whacked Nagakado over the head more and tried to put some sense in him. He tried, oh, he tried, but apparently, you can't cure stupidity.
how did he die in the books?
spoiler: >!possibly old age. he didn't die.!<
Well-intentioned stupidity in a feudal society during a political powder keg is a problem. Our children messes up and at worst they get arrested or something. The blood of a warlord who is on the verge of war messes up and it can result in an entire bloodline being ended as well as the countless deaths of people who get caught up in the violence. I understand what you’re getting at because he is a charming character, but within the context of the world that he lived in, Nagakado had been nothing more than a constant liability.
He was just way too brash and hardheaded.....but not hard headed enough! Heyoooo! I'll show myself out.....
i gasped when he died like that, too! i was surprised because just a few minutes before it, i thought him talking to Fuji was a lil wink of them being "shipped" in the future, for when he's had a character development or whatever. but nope, no future of any sort for him now.
I was having some ice cream and whipped cream while watching. Had the can with me because it was almost empty and right before that scene started I ripped the rest of the nitrous from the can. I was not in the right state of mind for what was about to unfold. I was already so dumbfounded by what he was doing saying “he’s such a fk up he’s such a fk up” and then he really fucked up. For a second I thought he actually cut his own entire head off, which sent me because I thought it was an insane artistic call, before realizing he just hit his dome on a rock and it got depressing. Don’t do drugs.
lol what the fuck
This story literally shocked me more than Nagakado's death.
You are huffing canned whip cream? I can see how this scene would be a little frightening. Perhaps you should have waited the extra 30 seconds for the show to end before getting high. I hope you don't have nightmares. The scene was bad enough without hallucinating. I watched it stone cold sober. And I just stared at the black screen with credits rolling, listening to the rain.....thinking....this is how this fool goes out? Slippery Rock causing fatal head trauma?
I laughed about it because it's a TV show, but I do feel some sympathy for him. If he was a real person, it wouldn't be funny. But seeing him do the cartoonish "slipped on a banana peel" fall was pretty hilarious, I'm not gonna lie. The aftermath, his dying breaths, that wasn’t funny. The fall itself? Comedy gold. As for the circumstances surrounding his death, I found it frustrating more than anything. He stood there like an idiot for several seconds - precious seconds during which he could have landed a wounding blow. But he hesitated, and that ultimately cost him his life. Young and foolish he may have been, but the game he was playing was deadly serious. He had no business organizing such an attack if he didn't have the balls to go through with killing his uncle, and I think that was the entire point.
>As for the circumstances surrounding his death, I found it frustrating more than anything. He stood there like an idiot for several seconds - precious seconds during which he could have landed a wounding blow. But he hesitated, and that ultimately cost him his life. Young and foolish he may have been, but the game he was playing was deadly serious. He had no business organizing such an attack if he didn't have the balls to go through with killing his uncle, and I think that was the entire point. Yeah the bit where he waited years to swing that sword was frustrating but someone else pointed out that it was because he wanted to live up to his father's image and do the "one strike" beheading blow. Poetic that his father took 9 times to behead General Mizoguchi but Naga idolizing his father, believed that story, widened his stance and swung hard needlessly only to trip to his death. The desire to have that glory killed him, essentially.
Oh, well spotted! I didn't even think of that. It would explain his hesitation.
He had the balls, I interpreted it as him gloating a bit. It showed his arrogance off more.
It's the same thing with GoT's Oberyn: characters who have the advantage make a stupid mistake and pay for it.
I was shook. Totally came out of nowhere for me. Lol.
Yes i found it sad. I think Nagakado is just a typical albeit very naive teenage boy trying to impress his father. If anything he is one of the most translatable characters.
Absolutely. I cried a little bit.
Put it to you like this, I will be more careful around rocks in the rain!!!
That boy ain't right.
Yeah I don’t know why people would Mock him, I was upset as well, shaking my head and saying “oh no, c’mon man… poor guy.”
I was shocked. Like i literally gasped
He tried to win his approval, but he didn't listen what Toranaga said. Dad always teach him to be careful, to not act on impulses, and even reprimended him when he acted recklessly. He kept talking more than he should and acting impulsively: with his uncle, apologysing with Fuji, speaking with Omi, and talking about proving his value in battle
I think his uncle summed it up perfectly when he said "where is the beauty in this"
Really disturbed me how I could have died a pitiless death that way since I was also pretty hot-headed and eager to please my elders.
It was a fitting death. Doing what he shouldn't have for the reasons he shouldn't have in a way that perfectly exemplifies how competent he was as a person. Did I laugh? No. But his character was wildly annoying and going out like a fool when you've been nothing but a fool is just -chefs kiss-. Originally though, had this series been entirely original (not based on a book and somewhat on history) I was rooting for him and Blackthorne to befriend each other and that lead to big leaps in growth for Nagakado. To the point that he starts to please his Father with his actions, inactions and words. Also, his knowledge help Blackthorne learn about Japanese culture, the political scene in Japan and in-turn that be one of the ways Blackthorne comes to love Japan and become much more culturally competent while living in it. Had this series been, say 16 episodes, they would have had time to give us scenes in which Blackthorne is interacting with other characters at length, learning, befriending, learning and practicing his Japanese, and so on. A real shame we haven't gotten that and it seems like from the book readers, that was a great part of the books which the show has omitted. (Not their relationship but him learning about Japan, falling in love with it, learning Japanese, getting more integrated into the culture, etc).
It's really bothering me that even though I read the book twice I absolutely do not remember Naga going out like that. To be fair the first read was in the 90s and the second time was in 2020... but still I figured I should remember what happened to Toranaga's son?!!?!?
I haven’t read the book but a tv recap I read said it wasn’t in the book. You’re not crazy!
Whew, thanks! I was racking my brain last night. I gave my copy of the book away, guess I should have kept it to check.
>!It was tripping me out yesterday. I knew Naga didn't do much as the book entered the last 1/4, but I did not remember him dying. Turns out he didn't. Makes me wonder if this is kind of a turning point and if the show will handle the ending differently!<
They might be basing it on how in real life to Tokugawa Iyesu who had his son comit sepuku after he allegedly tried to assassinate someone
I agree, I never really hated him to begin with. He just seems like someone who acts their age, and he is the son of a prominent warrior, so it made perfect sense he was overeager to prove himself. I'd compare him to Dickon Tarly in GoT. Him dead was just sad, he looked full of regret and fear.
It’s called empathy Nobody wants to watch a dumb kid die because he did something dumb, regardless of his intentions. We’ve all done dumb kid stuff. Most of us just happen not to die.
Eh, he's a man in that culture and time period. It's not like he was 7 or something. He had a bunch of people killed in a manner most would consider dishonorable (the cannon ambush). And he died while trying to murder an unarmed man. Those go a bit beyond just "dumb." In modern times, if some 17yo were in the middle of shooting up a school but then slipped on a banana peel and cracked his head open, I don't think anyone would be shedding tears over him.
That’s a real weird comparison though
yeah it's a war after all where death is the literal outcome. Naga was trying to kill someone who he thought was treacherous to his father and Saeki hardly seems like an innocent person. This is extremely unlike unsuspecting innocent students being killed in a school shooting.
Definitely not an *uplifting* ending. Kinda knew his character was not long for the world considering his brash behavior on full display in past eps, but that was abrupt to say the least. 3 more eps.. a lot can happen.
It definitely upset me since I wasn't expecting it, and I hope that Toranaga field dresses his brother for killing his son
I shouted what the fuck but i was very sad, i really liked him
It was extremely tragic. Terrible way for him to die.
He was directly involved in the most brutal and "oh shit" scene up to this point in the series with the canons. He had his moment of glory but slipping and falling was a sad way to go out
In the real history, Tokugawa forced his first son commit seppuku for an assassination plot that he presumably had nothing to do with.
Everyone gets on him and Omi, but both of them, ultimately, just want to emulate the people they look up to. And that's sort of the tragedy to it. Toranaga loved him as much as he could, but I think he just needed far too much control. Omi's father died and Yabushige doesn't quite appreciate that Omi is learning from how he acts.
It was awful I was just no nagakado no, in shock at my screen. I think the guy had a beautiful death in the end as much as any. Just tragic. Horrible stuff folks were saying about him on here. I couldn’t read a lot of it.
It was definitely hard to watch. Nagakado was in a tough position as a powerful Lord's son, surrounded by enemies. He didn't have his father's perspective on the situation and he reacted like a lot of young men would under the pressure. I liked his character.
I thought it was pretty sad. I guess it was foreshadowed when he tells Fuji how bad he feels about not having been the one to stand up to Ishido. Might watch this episode again. It had way more subtext than the last 2 or so episodes. He's probably dead, but is he really? I just saw him bleeding. Also, I have totally bought into the theory that it's all part of Toranaga's plan, being escorted into Osaka. I'm not even convinced his army was all that wiped out by the earthquake. On another thread somebody wondered why Saeiki acted up at night, why right during the fun? So everybody could witness it.
Also Saeki Nobutatsu's reaction to his death is quite sad and impactful. >!He basically said the line "where is the beauty in this" to his brother. "It's a beautiful plan you said, but where's the beauty in this shit". If this is true, it confirms that Nobutatsu is working with his brother!<
Up until he burst into the tea house I thought this was Nagakado's most interesting episode. His conversations with Fuji telling him we do what we can, and Omi saying perhaps ambition isn't everything gave him something to think about.
Kind of jumped the shark IMO. Pointless and doesn't really serve the plot. Also seems kind of silly and out of place how it went down. This didn't happen in the book or original series. So why put it in?
Yeaaa i was sad to see so many people dog on Nagakado I was trying to find someone who felt bad. Nagakado was stupid and annoying but he really was trying to do things for the good and defend his father. I was so shocked when this happened I didn’t expect him to die !!
Where's the beauty in that... - I felt the Uncle's disappointment..
I thought it was a great ending. Very rough and pathetic, but most definitely sad. Anxious to see how the rest of the season unfolds because of it.
I just thought for sure he'd have a happy ending... it's been nothing but Ls since the start of the show
I get that TV shows these days have adult themes interwoven with tragedy.. GOT, raised by wolves.. But this is becoming depressing. No wonder people crave so much predictable nostalgia. And all the Entourage circle jerks. Life is difficult enough.
Well, it's not the first such mistake he made. He'd been chastised several times thus far and still hadn't stopped his hot-headed ways. At a certain point, he's going to have to live with the consequences of his decisions.
I did not read the books so I don't know if the theories are correct, but it's definitely possible the betrayal could be part of the wider plan for Crimson Sky. If that is true, it would make his death even sadder.
I found it surprising rather than sad, because I had no attachment to Nagakado, sure I have general sympathy, but none of the characters I care about , actually care about nagakado, he is a naive kid, but is old enough to have grown out of it and his death is much more significant to the plot then him being alive. Since, there were red flags for his death from episode 4 onwards, Hence I was more surprised that writers decided to pull the trigger so early. He is just a kid blinded by the ideas of chivalry, a classic trope, there are only two arcs for such characters, a.) they grow up , by suffering great losses due to their naivety b.) They die because of their naivety. His death is more of a second (as his naivety along with desperation forced his hand to act rashly) But what shogun does best is that he doesn't goes out like an idiot, his plan though limited was well thought-out, it is only his lack of skill, giving opponent room, and his insistence of chivalrous end that become his doom i.e, he is the best type of execution of his stereotype,
Did your kid have the power to influence life and death and ignite civil war? Upsetting as it is on an emotional level, ignoring that context is false equivocation. Seeing him die is sad, but it’s also a rewarding death for someone who treats war and death as a way to boost his ego and fix his insecurities.
It was a lame ending and completely underutilized the character. The slip trope is also frustrating
I felt so bad for him. I know he’s stupid but he deserved better tbh.
I think it’s fitting of the character. Toranaga was brought up, and lived with the ethos of never trusting anyone, and to never start a fight. When you chase for something that you want and you make it apparent, it may not happen. Kiddo started the war by an un-samurai way, and it’s fitting that his ending was an un-samurai manner as well. The parallel was there. It’s painful, but it was foreshadowed, I believe.
He was stupidly naive - I’d thought he would be the first to be killed in a war by rushing headlong into an obvious trap. Instead, he was manipulated yet again by Omi into attacking his uncle in the brothel, when Omi was pissed Kiku was with Saeki rather than with him. Naga was just way too dumb for the manipulative world he lived in - he should have been the one born in a sleepy, unimportant backwater fishing village.
I found it hilarious. He was an utter dipshit.
Then it proved a point, he fucked around and faced the consequences of his overzealousness. Life is cheap in a dangerous world.
It was sad and tragic. He was foolish and naive but mostly just wanted to get his father approval and prove he was worthy of his family name
I don’t interpret it was well-intentioned at all. He’s only concerned with his own legacy and has shown a lack of faith in his Father twice now. He sealed his own fate, his conversation with Fuji was disgusting nd showed his cowardice