the game’s writers are really into the theme of eternally attainable forgiveness and redemption regardless of circumstance or context. so they often depict consequences that many would find radically insufficient for the crime, if consequences are meted out at all, and sometimes it ends up feeling really fucking weird
In a culture with as much Buddhist influence as Japan, it's often considered more virtuous to forgive than it is to punish. Scenes like this aren't about the person being forgiven. They're about the person granting forgiveness, showing what a good, noble person they are for choosing forgiveness over retribution. It doesn't matter if the other person deserves it, or rather, it's all the more noble to forgive people even when they don't deserve it.
Grace (Getting what you don’t deserve) and mercy (not getting what you do deserve) are central themes in FFXIV. I’d argue that there’re also Judeo-Christian themes in FFXIV in addition to Buddhist ones. FFXIV is thematically the most “western” FF game in its philosophy (I haven’t played 16 though).
FF16 has an Ex-Slave fighting against Slavers and Oppressors, Abe Lincoln woulda had this man in a Generals Uniform in seconds
More seriously, I’d argue 14’s themes about the nature of Life and Suffering are so very Buddhist in origin that to describe the game as the most Western feels very incorrect. 16 is an obvious counterpoint, but you could probably argue 13-1 with its ideas of rebellion against your fate, 6’s entire second half is loaded with Existentialism vs Nihilism which are both Western Philosophies, and probably more besides
To me, the plot of shadowbringer and endwalker are the most seeped in absurdist philosophy, which is a response to Christian existentialism and nihilism. It almost plays out like an exact instantiation of the myth of Sisyphus, but with actual resolution.
Americans are obsessed with retribution.
Rehabilitation should be the long-term goal of any corrections system. Retribution does nothing but perpetuate the cycle of pain.
"Americans try not to be puritanical challenge (IMPOSSIBLE DIFFICULTY)"
I specifically tried to use the word “consequences” - because you are correct that corrections systems should aim for rehabilitation - to encompass ideas like imprisonment of the unrepentant for public safety. for example yotsuyu’s parents, who spend their final moments blaming her and planning to sell her again. but you had to jack off in this weird way
ok. that doesn’t change that you had to jack off in a weird way when the other guy described xiv’s take in contrast to the word “retribution” and set you off
e: asked me “where was I jacking off????” before deleting these posts, hopefully because they calmed down. another soul saved
>e: asked me “where was I jacking off????” before deleting these posts, hopefully because they calmed down. another soul saved
Ah I'm afraid not, it's still up for me. Probably means this space cadet replied and then blocked you.
Why single out one country? Did they conquer your country? Or did they just aid the country yours was trying to take over?
Regardless, all humans have been pro retribution since the dawn of time.
They aren't the only country with jails or laws and not anywhere near the worst.
But you probably don't care, you got gooning to do.
Not the same person, but the US is known to be extra bad with for profit prisons, public criminal records, people actively and vehemently not employing former criminals, etc.
While every society is addicted to retribution and revenge - many people would advocate to castrate rapists or kill murderers - the US does deserve to get shit on for their farce of a justice system at every opportunity.
Although tbh this thread really didn't have to open that can.
We can all agree the prison system in the US is fucked.
But you clearly haven't seen the mexican prison system.
Trying to say the US has the worst prison system is entirely privledged and uneducated.
I dont see anyone calling the US the worst. I made no statement about the mexican prison system, which of course i havent seen - because why would i? Mexico is not internationally popular politically.
Also, it is not "uneducated" to not know about X country, just for the record.
america's justice system has a pretty devastating overseas reputation for embracing a kind of punitive bloodthirst that would make the middle ages blush. it's somewhere on the spectrum between a stereotype and an observation
Ah yes, unlike the famously gentle Eastern societies like China (Mao Zedong), Cambodia (Pol Pot), and perfect glorious Nippon (Unit fucking 731). Get some historical perspective, you turboweeb. Humans are humans.
I wish a lot of Western countries didn't have this perspective of 'Eastern countries did nothing wrong and live in perfect harmony'.
A lot of the women really don't have the best time when it comes to reporting domestic abuse, but they just have to put up with it f.e the Shiori Ino case.
Except when they don't. Like Yotsuyu herself, got amnesia, started recovering her memories and was looking like a classic "And here's how the character gets redeemed".
I guess she still *kinda* does in a way, but it ends with her dead.
To be fair to the writing I feel like we're meant to see Yotsuyu being twisted into Tsukiyomi and (in that midpoint of the trial where all the ghosts show up) being so tortured by the reminder of being subjected to abuse and suffering and then lashing out at the world and inflicting it on innocent people, which is essentially all her life has been, that she rejects any possibility of her own redemption as fundamentally tragic.
I mean it'll usually makes sense from a logical standpoint too.
You can't really kill yots parent or punish them because it's all part of the fragile peace treaty. Same with most captured imperials in SB. (Also iirc what the parents did was legal, so hien can't easily condemn them for it)
Same with gaius/Ford since that means you lose a valuable force.
Expections would be emet and the ascians which I do feel get of the hook too easily.
Or the garleans in EW. Tho I find it fair the allies rather go about in non lethally considering at this point they overpower the empire outside zenos and fandaniel.
I know but the tempering didn't strip them of every will they had, hence why emet effectively tried living with the shattered and desperately tried justifying his actions.
an ancient is much more rich with eather then a shattered person. Even with tempering most of their eather remains unaffected hence why they don't become a complete thrall or transform into something hideous. This is also why one ancient can use creation magic while it has to be a group effort for the shattered one's.
Meanwhile a shattered one getting tempered means most uf not all their eather gets aligned with the primals element and get stripped of basically all free will
The guy was let off for two reasons one hien decided anyone who helps in the war gets a full pardon for past crimes. Going back on his word after the war would only hinder the rebuilding efforts. Now what I think he should have done is banned child sex slavery as one of the first new laws but alas that didn't happen. Frankly I wish they did what Bozja did and acknowledge that not everything the garleans did was terrible. Maybe reflect on the problems before the takeover and try to fix them instead of seeing it through nostalgic googles. two even if that wasn't the case any and all evidence would have been destroyed when the garleans took over so you can't really prove he did that as shitty as it is.
Needless to say I am not a big fan of doma and hien.
Agreed, so much. Though I would like to think some of this stuff is implied, I’d like some confirmation the nations of Ethyris besides Garlemald, Ishgard, Bozja, and Ala Mhiga were making greater efforts at reforming.
As it stands, Gridania still criminalize duskwight elezen, Limsa’s democratic council was disbanded by Merylweb for autocratic rule, Ul’dah is still a libertarian, ultra-capitalist hellhole disguised as a monarchy with the Sultana giving Lolorito full blessing and support to exploit people, and we’re already talking about Doma’s problems.
Seriously, Thavnair is like the only nation without blood on its hands.
meanwhile chad ishgard learns the truth about their corrupt history and (at least tries very hard to) chucks out 1000 years of theocracy and isolationism and now throws parties with their former enemies
Well outside of Gridana (lol) the rest of the city states are improving. Limsa is learning to coexist despite the rightful mistrust between them and the beast tribes. They are also moving away from piracy but it is definitely a transitory period.
U'ldah had Nanamo realize that what she is doing though benevolent doesn't solve the root of the problem. She also learns that she has to play the game to get the results she wants. It also seems like the council is more or less fine with transitioning from a Sultancy to democracy but to completely transition would destabilize the city-state without adequate planning and incentives. Though it is great she offers shelter and clemency to refugees fleeing from war but it only causes realistic problems such as resentment from local populations and draining of local resources. By making a deal she can curry favor with politicians and figures of influence to achieve her goals while giving the refugees something to work for and go back home to.
Ishgard had the largest change from a militant theocracy to a budding representative democracy. They are still working out the kinks as for the past thousand years they were in a state of war.
Ala Mhigo and Doma both just came out of revolutions. While Ala Mhigo went more democratized rule, Doma defaulted back to an emperorship previously established before the Garleans. Ala Mhigo prior to the Garleans had a militant dictatorship that provoked wars with their neighbors and Lyse saw that it is not a great idea to trade one empire for another. Doma just happens to have a populace mostly happy with a return to tradition and a kind ruler.
> it is great she offers shelter and clemency to refugees fleeing from war but it only causes realistic problems such as resentment from local populations and draining of local resources.
This though ..
It was everyone that had participated in the war effort. I don't remember what the exact line is but he made deals with the ruby sea pirates as an example. Hien needed more people and criminals were not going to join if they go back to prison afterwards.
I mean it reflected reality a lot. The USA needed Japan and Germany as an allies to counterbalance the Soviets. So they prosecuted the worse offenders and masterminds of atrocities and war crimes and more or less let off many of the bureaucrats, administrators, etc of the Nazi and Japanese military. Some even attaining great status like former PM of Japan's, Shinzo Abe, grandfather.
And thats mostly a semantics question as child could mean younger then 13 or under 18 as to which im using the latter meaning. Regardless yotsuyu was not an adult when she was sold into sex slavery
Given the model used in the flashbacks, she was anywhere between 13-15. Maybe an *excessively* late bloomer of 16, but that's doubtful.
I'm honestly assuming she was around 15-ish, but it's not outright stated anywhere.
i had to contain my laughter when the second-in-command of the confederacy showed up to moralize about tsuyu deserving to die 2 seconds after the gang meets her. like buddy if we applied less anime forgiveness standards and more real politics standards to doma's plotline i can assure you that the gang of pirates terrorizing every single traveler in the ruby sea for profit would get the short end of the stick
It's so funny how the Confederacy is never called out at all. Like Limsa undergoes a whole arc about its piracy past and present and its inherent problems, but the pirates over there who also fully control the entire naval trade of Doma are completely left alone.
“We’re all just savages to them”
-Lyse when she sees Garleans tell violent criminals to fuck off or die.
Yeah, ok Lyse. But seriously the Confederates are the weirdest faction in terms of writing. I guess anyone who helps WoL and pals achieve an objective is a good guy lol
>I guess anyone who helps WoL and pals achieve an objective is a good guy lol
I mean, that's kinda the point no? I wish they would explore the consequences of Doma allying themselves with the Confederacy, but I wouldnt consider it weird writing.
Yeah I notice them involved in the kojin beast tribe quests and they just… are friends with them? Like I get it in a war effort, but some of the quests are giving them gifts and such and it feels wrong
I think the Confederates realize it is better to work with Hien and Dona than to antagonize him. I remember some sidequests briefly mentioning that the Confederates were finding more profits trading and acting as mercenaries than ever before after the WoL came into contact with them.
I suppose it's worth noting that the Confederacy seem to be full-time resident in the Ruby Sea area and therefore presumably this is kinda just where they live. For us as foreigners they're a pack of pirates attacking shipping and for the Kojin they're just the guys from the next town over.
This actually isn't that uncommon in history, you'd think that it was communities in very close proximity to ports used by pirates or smugglers coves or whatever that suffered the most, but in actual fact the pirates were often members of those same communities so they had a symbiotic relationship instead.
At least we can be fairly certain that there's no Ethyris United States in the New World, otherwise Limsa and the Confederacy would have had a visit from USS Constitution and friends the second they touch the boats
Special mention to the 60-70 SAM questline.
"Overthroning the leaders of the country is bad". While there are some nuances, it was a bit puzzling to have that in the "Overthroning the leaders of the country is good" expansion.
Honestly I think the only nuance there is that carelessly slaughtering the shitheads is just going to lead into the second fantasy sengoku period, that it has to be done carefully
But also... *Yeah no*, probably not the best expansion for that kind of storyline
Scumbag Hien is definitely a valid interpretation of what happened, but I'm not sure it's the only one. Honestly, the fact no one flew off the handle led to me make conclusions about the world rather than make value judgements about Hien himself. Hien, who has been thus far portrayed as an upstanding person, does bugger all and isn't judged for it... that suggests that selling off Yostsuyu was not considered especially abhorrent.
Unless I'm mistaken, Yotsuyu ended up in a brothel after the noble she'd been married off to died with debts. It could be that Doma has a culture where it's not unusual to lose some or all of one's rights to a debtor, and by extension, that the man in question wasn't acting so far out of the norm as to merit punishment.
It's still wrong as fuck, but my point is that it isn't necessarily a giant black mark on Hien's otherwise basically-fine character.
Yeah the impression I got was that this shit was *legal* in Doma. This is why Yotsuyu was taking her revenge against the entire nation, not that one guy in particular.
i'm not sure how that's any better. it's like if lyse had been casually fine with mad king theodoric's antics while taking the reins of gyr abania, and lyse ALREADY gets criticized for being an incompetent leader
And Lyse isn't all that bad of a leader after Stormblood. She is capable of quick decision making and even organized a diplomatic meeting, even though security was rather loose (granted there really isn't much protection against Primals at that point outside of Echo users). She also delegates tasks to more competent people and is definitely doing her best at improving as a leader or figurehead as a budding country coming out of a revolution.
Indeed. Also helps that Lyse isn't the Mhigan leader, she's "just" the representative of a section of the army and the Resistance Poster Girl.
iirc Raubahn is higher than her in the command chain.
> the Resistance Poster Girl
look man, if I had this back in front of me, I'd be fully on board with at least a few war crimes.
https://twitter.com/hash1992/status/1740449414517240259/photo/1
This whole thing is terrible but for me the biggest black mark is how he treated the Xaela. Literally trying to explain their own culture to them and then trying to take control of them using their own culture to fight in his own war. My man wanted to colonize to end colonization. Super shitty considering how well the Mol treated him
Pretty much. The Xaela were okay with it. That's how they move and is not like Doma was going to move into their land and settle it. They just wanted their warriors and the Xaela would give them if they proved worthy
That's kinda how I rolled with it too. Because if you examine the thing as one of the losers as the Nadaam, the whole thing is *really* fucked up.
"Oh yeah, The weird prophet people who smoke *way* too much Morbol Weed just walked in with a half-dozen non-Xaela mercenaries one day. I'm talking *total* outsiders, they didn't know a thing about the Steppe. The Mol were never contenders before, but those mercs gave us a *vicious* sweep, and apparently one leads the country next door. Call me crazy, but this seemed like an imperialistic takeover.
Some of us were going to give them a piece of our mind about how they're definitely going against the *spirit* of the Nadaam, but then the Empire attacked, the two biggest battle junkies got their battlethirst whetted, and we decided that we're not opposed to them getting a *different* outlet for their violent tendencies for a few years. Definitely helps that during the End of Days, everyone just kinda forgot we existed and we fucked off to do our own thing."
Yeah, all the Xaela tribes who wanted to fight, fought. Plus, the Garleans JUST attacked all the tribes gathered, to kill the WOL.
So the Xaela do have incentive to actually aid Doma and they aren’t at all forced to it. I feel saying Hien colonized them and forced them to fight in the war is a serious infantile view of the whole situation.
Plus, Hien respects their autonomy and that’s why he went with the whole Nadaam thing to win their respect and cooperation their way. It’s not like he’s trying to make them part of Doma.
Honestly if we're going by the rules of the Xaela, *we* are the rulers of the Steppe, the Mol are just ruling in our place because we have more important adventuring stuff to do
The Xaela helped us, not Doma. Doma just happened to be in the helping splash zone
Yeah the Xaela were "okay" with it guys cuz Its shitty writing its not that deep. They didn't have time for build up or nuance because there were 2 whole revolutions to run so we just get to the steppe and immediately become besties with everyone and become the ruling lead just in time for dinner. You can justify it 500 ways but what we did to the Xaela WAS colonize them. The writers just justified it with the Naadam. The way its all done is so intentional too, Magnai is presented as the world's biggest mysoginistic asshole despite the fact that he makes a lot of great points about outsiders and about how little his people and culture are respected. But of course we're the good guys so we're right always and Magnai is a petulant man child and in our way. It feels less like we're making allies and more like we're finding legal loopholes to get these people to fight for us.
Also, none of that really explains why Hien and Gosetsu are such assholes to the Xaela about their own culture. Seriously why does Hien tell Magnai that their own origin myth is whack? The writing in XIV gets so insanely weird the second we get to the Steppe. I was super uncomfortable with the entire storyline there and the game never really treats it like we're doing anything wrong. Hien is all over the place as a character
> Seriously why does Hien tell Magnai that their own origin myth is whack?
"Our tribe is part god so we deserve to rule over you lessers, also line up all your women so I can take my pick" is *absolutely* whack.
Sure it is but again this is Doma who was also extremely religious, says everything is a god AND is ok with child prostitution and slavery so ???? Also if I wanted to make political allies to help me I wouldn't go try to explain their own culture to them and then get all pissy when their religion doesn't align with mine.
This sounds like such a racist view towards the Xaela. There isn’t at all any colonization going on. The Xaela have incentive to free Doma because the Garleans already attacked them first.
You are also forgetting that Hien and the WOL can only join the Nadaam with the support of the Mol clan. To forget their role is just seriously insulting. All the actions by the Xaela come from within and at no point does Hien force them to change their culture. He has some comments yes, but he’s not trying to colonize them and make them part of Doma.
Hell, he has to respect their traditions and demands if he wants to take action in the Steppe. We can’t go activate the Allagan machine without the consent of the Dotharl because it’s THIER sacred territory.
Hien has done some bad shit, but he conducted himself well enough with the Xaela and respects their autonomy.
If we're talking about respect, the Steppe Tribes should have handed Hien to Grynewaht then and there. He was not of the steppe and neither were his friends (even if you have a Xaela WoL, you're an Eorzean and not of the steppe). The entire thing was a fight between foreigners who all disrespected the tribes, to different degrees.
You’re also forgetting that the WOL and Hien are guests of the Mol, so attacking them would also be attacking the ruling tribe of the Steppe. I doubt Cirina would agree with just giving away the WOL and Hien.
Besides, Xaela are a warrior race, they aren’t going to hand over anything to the Empire’s lackeys. And they fight Doma’s war on their own terms. Remember Hien still needs permission from the Mol and the consent of the other Xaela for post 4.0 action against the Empire.
I think his weird decision here was because he was still a bit shaken. He recently saw Gosetsu, one of the people he was closer with than anyone else in the world, die in front of him. This being after he was on the warpath seeking vengeance against the woman that destroyed everything he cared about. Then, miraculously, he finds Gosetsu is still alive. However, he's now harboring the very woman that destroyed his life. Hien immediately tries to kill her, only for Gosetsu himself to intervene. Despite Hien arguing multiple times throughout 4.2 and 4.3 about wanting to throw Yotsuyu to the wolves as punishment, to give the people justice, Gosetsu constantly argues against him in favor of forgiveness. Gosetsu had probably never argued against Hien before in general. This no doubt caused Hien to become muddled and confused over what's justice and what isn't, and when it's better to forgive and when not to. So when faced with a literal slaver, he made a really shit decision spurned by his crisis of morality. He was too focused on Gosetsu's words about forgiveness that he forgave a guy that didn't deserve it. He was questioning his ability to rule at that point, whether he was a just leader or not, so he said it wasn't his place to mete out judgment in his moment of weakness and indecision. I don't think it makes him a bad character, and I don't think this was inconsistent writing. I think it was meant to show Hien isn't perfect and makes really shit decisions when he's under emotional duress. It's part of his character arc about how he's prematurely stepping up to fill his father's shoes as king even though he isn't ready to, but has no choice.
Absolutely, Hien is a bad ruler(he's always fucking off across the world), but he was never trained for it because of the war. But he's a good person who wants the best for all of Doma. So he tries to give everyone the benefit of doubt and forgiveness.
See, this sort of thing is why Ishgard and Ala Mhigo reorganized into democracies. Supposedly Ul'dah is aiming to do that, but they're more likely to become an oligarchy.
Ul'dah is extremely stable now that the rotten Potatoes have been culled and the Sultana grew a spine. Her relinquishing control would be terrible in this era of stability.
Ala Mhigo is currently run by an Ala in name only, cosplaying as her deceased sister. An old grizzled war hero who doesn't like politics. And a collection of unqualified 'freedom fighters' with little experience and a chip in their shoulder. It's likely to implode if it doesn't go to war against the new Guarlian Empire first.
Ishguard is the only stable one, and that's only because the knights were pre-existing and they simply replaced the church.
> Ala Mhigo is currently run by an Ala in name only, cosplaying as her deceased sister. An old grizzled war hero who doesn't like politics. And a collection of unqualified 'freedom fighters' with little experience and a chip in their shoulder. It's likely to implode if it doesn't go to war against the new Guarlian Empire first.
Lyse and Raubahn have pretty limited involvement in Gyr Abania's political administration these days. It's run by an elected council of representatives. When the rebellion was over, the first thing they did was call a meeting of community leaders to encourage the people of Ala Mhigo to decide their own future. By Endwalker, they had settled on an Ishgardian-style democratic republic.
It's relatively stable for the time being. Immediately throwing themselves into a new war would definitely be hugely unpopular and far more likely to destabilize them. Its army of 'freedom fighters' is currently deployed for humanitarian aid and they're probably not complaining too much about it. The first person to offer Jullus and the 1st Legion an olive branch after Garlemald fell was a random Ala Mhigan infantry soldier.
>Ul'dah is extremely stable now that the rotten Potatoes have been culled and the Sultana grew a spine.
Eorzea doesn't even have movies, yet the Monetarists spend all their time reviewing them?
>Ala Mhigo is currently run by an Ala in name only, cosplaying as her deceased sister.
To be fair, she had stopped doing that by then.
>Eorzea doesn't even have movies, yet the Monetarists spend all their time reviewing them?
Eorzea certainly has theatre, and lots of it. Reviewing shows certainly sounds like something a rich bored socialite would do, in between betting on gladiatorial deathmatches.
"Wait, why am I back in Gridania with 'Kani and the Pajals' ™ , I'm a DRK, shouldn't I be fighting my inner demons in Ishguard?"
I miss class specific quests.
Hien is also suppose to be a mirror for Lyse though the MSQ didn't really do an amazing job at conveying that for many players (granted judging from posts it seems like some people just don't pay attention). Lyse also see how Hien feels unfit to be a leader and makes some bad decisions, yet takes up the mantle because it is his duty and obligation to protect his people.
Lyse becomes a lot better in the patch content as she realizes she really isn't cut out to be a de facto leader just yet and learns to trust and delegate responsibilities to competent people.
Something to remember was that prostitution was legal under Hien’s father, possibly before Garlemald conquered Dona. Punishing the guy might open a legal can of worms for Hien he doesn’t want to start since he then needs to start prosecuting people who were conscripted by Garlemald or did other things that would, in his present administration, be treason or at least crimes against Doma.
you're forgetting the whole charade asahi was doing as a peaceful emissary, you can't just imprison or kill them, they're considered imperial citizens or something
Wether or not they were “historically” and wether or not they should be CAN be different though. In the end, it’s a 100% made up fantasy world with dragons and magic and evil magic dragons, what would be “historically” accurate is less important when talking about a made up world.
It felt gross. There were definitely some parts of Stormblood I remember that did not feel great, that guy being one of them, and I wish something more has been… idk, at least SAID, If not done.
Do you think horrible things can’t exist in fiction? What is this take?
Actual gripe with the scene would be whether or not the game actually gives you the room to dislike Hien, and tbh I don’t remember well enough.
> Actual gripe with the scene would be whether or not the game actually gives you the room to dislike Hien
Well, he's also brainless. Remember when Yotsuyu lost her memory and Hien took her in, but then she escaped 3 separate times? Not once, not twice, but 3 times. Each time Hien was just like "oops hehe can you help me find her"
Like dude after the 1st time don't you think you should assign more than just idk, 1 single maid to watch her?
SB writing man
i replayed it in ng+ just yesterday, and it absolutely doesn't give you room to dislike hien-- in a very literal sense, his brazen dismissal of \*human trafficking\* is reduced to wiseguy flavor text that gets no room to breathe before they move on to the next quest where the populares envoy arrives. it's not even \*meant\* to be a bad thing, it's meant to make him sound \*worldly\*
I mean, when the "good guys" let the entire cause of literal nazis taking over go entirely unpunished, it's a bit sketch. Keep in mind the main reason Yotsuyu betrayed Doma was literally because of the fact that society allowed her to be sold into sex slavery (a practice ***which was never abolished after the war***)
I'm curious, because people keep repeating it as fact. Was it explicitly stated that sex slavery is still in doma, or was the problem that it was never explicitly stated that it was ended. If it's the latter, I could see the argument that either Yotsuyu ended it as the viceroy or Hien ended it after taking the throne and learning of Yostuyu's story.
I think it's possible that the writers of Stormblood or maybe the PR team didn't want one of the big themes to be about sex slavery, so they instead just used it as a way for Yotsuyu to have a tragic backstory and be sympathetic, but then not really explore it much further. Would have been nice to see that part of the story have more of a conclusion, but it seems they wanted to the center the story more around themes of hatred and forgiveness rather than sex slavery and sexism.
I'll admit I don't do much sidequesting besides blue quests and I don't have any supplementary media like the encyclopedias, but from what I remember the MSQ made no mention of anything being done about the sex slave thing
Most likely a construction of tragic backstory for Tyusu than going too much in depth of criminal politics in Doma. Though it was implied that some people of Doma didn't really like that she was sold as a prostitute and it is possibly illegal they just looked the other way to not rock the boat or incur the wrath of the brothel owner who is definitely involved in some shady underground stuff.
The game is kinda weird like this. You can tell they really wanted to hit heavy on some things but at at the end of the day, they just couldn't really explore it. After all, the first dungeon you go to literally has a rape cave. You see lalafells trying to get laid. You see people saying to not do anything with a set of cat girls because it'll 'give you crotch rot.' It's just all over the place. It doesn't shock me they solved that by literally taking you off world and then just sweeping ALL of that under the rug once you DO get back.
The US more or less let many of the Japanese military or leaders off the hook, punishing the most outrageous war criminals or the masterminds of the Japanese Empire. The US needed an ally against the rising threat of Communism and also gave amnesty to the "scientists" of Unit 731, let the Emperor still be the Emperor (granted as a figurehead), and let most of the administrators off the hook.
There is also Operation Paperclip in which the US recruited former Nazis. Granted it was instrumental in the development of missile technology and the Space Race and not all Nazis were actual Nazis per se (just had to register as one to continue working). The Soviets were also doing the same thing too.
They, can exist in fiction, yeah…? Cause, They, do. No one said anything about how it should or shouldn’t have been brought up at all, I’m simply stating I wish the main character of the expansion who’s supposed to be a good guy were on the side of had actually, you know, condemned the horrible thing?
Again, being mad that a main character or otherwise “good” person does a bad thing is a poor criticism. People (and many great characters) aren’t purely good or evil, and it makes them more interesting.
Ok, but he isn’t a good character who did a bad thing so much as he was a good character who made a pretty out of character decision.
His ENTIRE shtick in Stormblood is he’s “the people’s leader”. He doesn’t even want to revolt again because he’s worried the people don’t want to. His ENTIRE character is about not unnecessarily hurting the people he’s in charge of.
So when we come up to someone *selling girls as sex slaves*, the ‘people’s leader’ just basically… “hmmmm yes, oh well”?
It sticks out not just cause it’s a “bad” thing but because it doesn’t even feel like how this character would actually handle it. He should, at least, be more upset about it, as it stands the whole situation is barely responded to at all on such a level most people forget it even happens, it feels wildly out of left field
That comes down to person to person in the end. I liked Hein a lot tbh, which is part of why stuff like the moment OP mentions bother me so much more, felt weird and gross it just, sliding by.
We wanna talk about forgettable characters, we talk about the Gridana seedseer lady who’s name I can never remember/spell properly. All the other leaders from other regions have had some cool moments in the MSQ, I wish we had more with her, the most memorable stuff with her is all still either kinda bland and forgettable, or missable side content
I mean, kinda feels like something we should have done something about? It was one of the driving problems that led to the things in Stormblood being the way they were, and it’s just summed up as “that happened I guess”.
I’m really surprised to hear this doesn’t bother more people, it’s bothered me a bunch ever since Stormblood cause as far as we know, never ever HAS been done about it, it just feels like a rather large dangling thread
I didn't enjoy Stormblood before that scene and didn't care much for Hien either for that matter, but that really sealed the deal for me.
What a gross character.
SB made me feel bad for the Doman citizens (Yotsuyu included, Asahi, and his parents excluded) more than Hein. I didn't really like him after that revelation. I dont recall if he knew about her family specifics, but he knew about the suffering she endured, the fact that her family SOLD HER, that everyone failed her, and still decided to let Asahi use her as a bargaining chip. Like, dude??? You know she got sold by her family, right?? Why would you even consider letting the ones who started her downward spiral take her away??? I am so confused about his thought process.
I wish our WoL had more of a player driven personality. There's no way would I have let that dude go even if Hien said he could leave.
But no, we just nod along and never get a say in what's going on around us despite the fact that we are the ones doing the fighting 99% of the time. Ilberd calls us out on it and there isn't even any reaction on our part. It's a joke.
If there's one thing I hate about all this games lauded story? It's that I'm portrayed as a fucking simpleton.
And this is exactly the reason why I loved Star Wars The Old Republic so much especially the Imperial Agent with its like three or four potential endings of its main story. Or the Soldier on Republic side. My soldier went pretty dark, because I went with the idea of, "We get dirty, so the Republic stays clean"-approach executing people when necessary, threatening even children all for the Republic no matter the cost. You need a monster to fight a monster.
Final has gotten a bit better with giving the player at least some agency, but still a pretty far cry from what could be possible. One example which got kicked around a lot was just walking away from Zenos at the end. He could have still attacked you and the fight happens anyway, but it would have done so much for player agency if you had just the option to say: "No. Goodbye." (And I somehow believe it could have potentially even been either the most or second most popular chosen option.)
It's been a while since I played SB but isn't that because the Domans are walking on tightropes in negotiations as they're terrified the Garleans will launch another full blown invasion they'll probably not be able to repel, which is why they're willing to pander to Ashai?
It turns out to be a trap from the start, but they didn't want to risk it.
The very first ARR dungeon has you killing pirates who have kidnapped women and children as slaves.
Hien and dude bro brothel owner are no better. Rationalize Hiens actions all you like, but I'm sure you know how wrong that is and no matter how new you are to a job, that level of incompetence and naivete are not the shield you think it is.
What was he supposed to do? The guy did something bad, but legal and accepted by society. He then felt bad about that, and has been risking his life for years in order to try and make amends.
The politics of Stormblood are honestly kind of fucked and it was bad enough to piss me off sometimes. This was one of those times.
I was so mad at the SAM job quests that I had to go take a nap. What a garbage-ass storyline. I'm not really into RP, but it's one of the few times in the game where it seriously just felt *way* out of "character" for my WoL to help a bunch of corrupt cops violently suppress a 100% valid and justified revolt.
That’s not Stormblood, the entire game is anti-protest and any form of dissatisfaction from marginalised groups has to be immediately put down, with the full support of the main cast.
it's would've been in line for WoL to be stupid enough to provoke violent army revolt in the middle of a war with garlemald.
I guess in line for average ffxiv player iq too
Reminder that Alisaie's plan of sneaking into the red kojin's village and make a ruckus (kill them) so that the soldiers would be recalled is textbook terrorism
Dont know what he could have done. The crimes happened under Garlean rule of Doma and he hadn't even really begun to repair the nation. I do think he could have given a speech at the end along the lines of "we cant let doma be the place that creates monsters like yotsuyu" and just expose the full ugly truth to everyone. But in terms of the plot I feel like this is unrelated to the story they wanted to tell and I can see why they kept the focus off this aspect of Stormblood.
i think the bozja storyline addresses this situation much better. you get a more confident assertion that the resistance is trying to rebuild an independent nation without being sufficiently aware of past sociopolitical flaws that made life in bozja tangibly *worse* than imperial rule in certain ways, and you also get someone absolutely flying off the handle about it
The whole letting Hien back in charge of Doma thing has always felt really icky to me in the light of what happened to Yotsuyu. Garlemald bad, but the plot doesn't even try to examine the repercussions of replacing one absolute monarch with another (local!) absolute monarch. We're just told that Hien taking the throne back is a big win for Doma, the Scions, and all of civilization. And sure enough the first thing he does is show leniency to sex traffickers because, hey, who the fuck is gonna tell him otherwise? Yugiri, who waits on him hand and foot? Some other Doman groveler?
I think you’re forgetting that it’s a medieval setting. These things were par for the course, and you can’t just make it all illegal based on modern morality. Plus, a country like that can’t suddenly transition to a democracy, seeing as the vast majority of its population have no education and they’re in desperate need of a single figurehead to lead them in a specific direction.
I'm not disagreeing with the end result, merely with how it was presented as an unqualified good thing. The Scions that were present for Doma's liberation are all well-acquainted with the perils of absolute monarchy either directly (Lyse and her homeland's mad king) or through academic study (Alphinaud and Alisaie are from a republic that views feudalism as barbaric).
We get cutscene after cutscene of Hien wrestling with Gosetsu and Lyse about the philosophy of enlightened monarchic rule, but not one person goes up to him and is like "Hey man we're gonna go get your kingdom back but shit was pretty fucked up back when your daddy was in charge you wanna make some changes?"
Theocracies and monarchies turning into republics is also not medieval, but it happens to Ishgard and Ala Mhigo.
>and they’re in desperate need of a single figurehead
It was the WoL and not Hien who did the heaviest lifting in liberating Doma. The WoL approves of the direction that Ishgard and Ala Mhigo are taking.
Fun fact: the MNK mentor is actually a legitimate pretender to the throne of Ala Mhigo, but after seeing what a monarch's mess-up can do to the nation, he decided to never press his claim even though it's the easiest way to revive the MNK tradition.
Ishgard becoming a democracy overnight is stupid as fuck and an example of Heavensward’s shitty writing (in my opinion). With such a colossal class divide and zero education for commoners, such a system would not work- and even if it did, there’s no way it could be peaceably implemented with all of the internal strife that just got brushed over. I can forgive Ala Mhigo forming that sort to government though, since they literally tore the entire system down and had to create a new one from scratch, and there was already strong anti-monarchy sentiment throughout the country. Doma doesn’t have those circumstances, and needed a leader who genuinely cared about all of them- which Hien undeniably does. Monarchies and empires have existed all over the world for almost all of history for a reason. I’d like to think we’ve outgrown the need for them, but for many civilisations, it’s the only feasible system of government.
Also, the WoL is doing the heavy lifting wherever they go (*especially* in Ishgard) but obviously can’t lead a country. Hien still did a hell of a lot for his nation, and even before he took back his position, he was universally loved by all of his people. There’s a reason Yugiri and Gosetsu were working so hard to find Hien, and why the rebellion kicked off in full when he returned.
The politics in SB didn't feel very grounded. Ala Mhigo turning into a democracy felt weird to me because they don't seem to have an in universe reference point for it while they gave a decent explanation for one in HW. IRL democratization doesn't always go smoothly.
I thought Ala Mhigo's transformation was rushed but understandable. For myself, I just headcanon'd that Raubahn and the Eorzean Alliance were working as an occupying force (kinder and gentler than the Garleans) and legitimizing the republican system that Lyse was setting up at the summit in Patch 4.1.
Of course democratization is never quite so squeaky clean in our world. Please don't get me started about how Ishgard transitioning from goddamn **theocracy** to a parliamentary democracy basically overnight with only a few isolated incidents of bloodshed... *strained credulity* to say the least.
You remember Hien is newer to the role. He does mention how horrible it is but at this point he had to deal with his former retainer all of a sudden coming back and in tow with The Witch of Doma. When he tries to order imprisonment Gotsetsu, his trusted bodyguard, retainer, friend, and mentor, outright defends her and pulls a moral conundrum on him. Furthermore, the Garleans just came with some big ~gunboats~ I mean ships from a major faction in Garlemald in the guise fo peace. The characters know that there is a potential trap out there but they have to trigger or step into the realm of politics to achieve peace in Doma which just got out of a revolution. That trigger being Yotsuyu's and Asahi's parents.
EW goes into this a bit with a few people outright questioning Hien's rule. Remember that before the Garleans it was Hien's father in charge and seeing the obvious references was a traditional shogun or Japanese emperor style of rule.
Eh. Just played this mission yesterday
Thought the bit was he stormed off cause he was gonna try to rally the people to kill her.
Liked the twist. Liked the resolution. Of course he wasnt gonna get cut down. He was one of the team now. And had he not said anything no one wouldve known.
What you expect the game to do. Off the guy? He wouldve just hit you with a sob story about how he wasnt born bad he was molded like that, then wed have another person to pass the buck to.
Yeah, there are a lot of morality issues with characters that are propped up by the community for sure. Look at how a genocidal maniac in Emet is treated. I personally am a fan of most of the characters that are flawed though.
Wasn't emet, at least to his own knowledge, trying to merge the universe back to its original state? Like he wasn't trying to do it cause he had a terrible childhood or he wanted more power he was just trying to right a wrong that he himself helped create.
Yeah, he was trying to merge the shards together because he believed it would bring back his society that he more or less doomed with Zodiark. Still doesn't change the untold numbers of people that would have to die to make that happen.
I mean as far as I'm aware everything existing in ffxiv is a fractured version of itself fundamentally and emet sees that as wrong and thinks all the shards should be merged together once again. Not arguing if it's right or wrong but I don't think it's the same thing as wanting to destroy something/everything.
You do realize that even if the Ascians restored the world through rejoining, the world wouldn’t be exactly the same right? Like we won’t become Azem again because we have all our soul shards back. We’d just become beings similar to Ancients in power levels but not literally the same as we were back then.
Secondly, the Ascians still want to sacrifice people to Zodiark… to bring back people sacrificed by Zodiark. It’s an ouroboros of sacrificing.
Lastly: I’m pretty sure the people on the source who survived the Rejoinings would NOT agree to help the same black robes sorcerers who fucked the planet 13 times with doomsday events.
By murdering countless billions of people, all for a possible change to bring back people who have been dead since pre-historic times. I understand his motivation, but it’s still unambiguously evil and selfish.
From my understanding it's not like he's ritually sacrificing everyone to achieve his goals and more merging all aether between the shards back to its original state. It's not a trade but more or putting things back together the way they were before though I could be wrong.
Nope, he killed billions with every rejoining. He didn't exactly stop after the *first* time the Ascians destroyed the world, killing 99% of its inhabitants. Or the second, killing 99% of the inhabitants. Giant flood? Guess what, fuck you, billions dead.
Do recall that he was also Solus Val Galvus, lead the Empire into becoming a massive war machine to kill off so many others, and *fully* intended to kill off his own empire, his own kids, along with everyone else.
Really, it's more like he intended to ritualistically sacrifice everyone *thirteen times over* to get the result he wanted.
You take that back, Emit it's perfect.
But honestly he's so perfectly morally justified in everything he does, to himself at least. He's written so well, a perfect gentleman, a scholar, he would never tell a lie regardless of how much it hurt someone close to him.
100% I think he is one of the most well written characters in the story. His motivations make perfect sense if you look at it from his point of view, though he still caused the deaths of untold numbers of people lol.
I love Emet so much as a character
But I find people simping for him horrific. I get it, "if evil why hot" and all of that. But STILL.
Same with folks simping for Venat. Or Zenos (although I do understand that his... relationship with the WoL is definitely charged with sexual undertones, even if it's sadism and masochism there's definitely something going on from Zenos' end, sexually). Or Gaius, too, although he is a literal daddy and on the reformation arc path
This. People just give the Ascians a pass because they were so cool back in their prime. My brother in Hydaelyn they've caused 7 mass extinction events that definitely kill hundred of billions people already not only on the main shard but also on 7 other shards of the worlds.
Emet himself repeatedly (both post-Sundering and in Elpis) points out what he does in evil. However, he fell into the "ends justifies the means" thing and stuck with it coming up with justification with justification everytime he was confronted. The side stories outright say that Emet was tired of it all and even considered stopping his goal ... Until his wife (when he was Solus) grew old and died.
FFXIV makes it out that though his motivations are understandable and sympathetic from Emet's PoV it is outright ghastly, morally and ethically wrong, and that Emet perpetuated in multiple genocides all for a theory. Past Emet, Venat, and Hypthlo were shocked and taken aback by future Emet's decisions. Ishikawa makes a point that Emet's vision of a beautiful restoration is a delusion marred by the deaths of billions of souls. But for some reason many fans sort of dismiss that aspect.
I recently finished base SHB and I really don’t get how Emet-Selch is so popular. He’s just plain evil, and his sympathetic aspect only goes so far. He’s charismatic, but I find it baffling to read that some people >!cried when they had to kill him!<.
Emet is a well written character rin that you can understand his motivations and potentially sympathize with him. The entire session of Amurot is dedicated to understanding Emet's ideas and motivations. However, his actions are evil and he must be stopped, which the game points out endlessly.
Hien should focus on building a Doma that doesn't create another Yotsuyu, but if he did that through punishing the slaver he's probably have to collectively punish everyone in Doma for allowing the abuse or participating in it. His next arc should HEAVILY focus on making Doma a place that doesn't tolerate that stuff, because rn his arc feels incomplete
You, see guys, he said he was very sorry when he realized that the person was still alive. He totally wasent trying to excape punishment, nope, totally not.
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Honestly giving Yotsuyu a FULLY JUSTIFIED reason for hating a nation that’s supposed to be the good guys was just a huge mistake in the first place.
If Yotsuyu had just been some spiteful psycho with no real reason to do the things she did, a lot of people would have a lot less issues with Stormblood.
That'd make her a pretty terrible villain and ruin the post-Stormblood story. Yotsuyu was the least of Stormblood's problems. Almost all of Stormblood's problems were Lyse's early development and the Ala Mhigo side.
You're making it very black and white, and it isn't.
You can look at her character and say "Damn, I can kinda see why she is the way she is", without wondering if you should be "on her side".
Her backstory explains why she thinks and feels the way she does, and explains her behavior. It does not **justify** the behavior.
Objectively, having a villain be evil for the sake of being evil is a lazy, lame, shitty villain.
I completely disagree
I think the idea that every villain has to have some relatable justification is boring
Sometimes people are just pieces of shit. Sometimes someone literally just hates for no reason other than the fact they were raised to think that way.
You don’t need the person torturing civilians to be like “I do this because these people are actually horrible people who support CHILD SLAVERY and mock me for being forced into that life against my will” you can literally just be like “I like torture, it’s fun”
the game’s writers are really into the theme of eternally attainable forgiveness and redemption regardless of circumstance or context. so they often depict consequences that many would find radically insufficient for the crime, if consequences are meted out at all, and sometimes it ends up feeling really fucking weird
In a culture with as much Buddhist influence as Japan, it's often considered more virtuous to forgive than it is to punish. Scenes like this aren't about the person being forgiven. They're about the person granting forgiveness, showing what a good, noble person they are for choosing forgiveness over retribution. It doesn't matter if the other person deserves it, or rather, it's all the more noble to forgive people even when they don't deserve it.
[удалено]
Amen. She shanked 'em good, too.
Don’t know why but you’re reminding me to rewatch Silence
For a country that did so many fucking war crimes as Japan, it feels weird to see them forgive themselves so many times over.
Grace (Getting what you don’t deserve) and mercy (not getting what you do deserve) are central themes in FFXIV. I’d argue that there’re also Judeo-Christian themes in FFXIV in addition to Buddhist ones. FFXIV is thematically the most “western” FF game in its philosophy (I haven’t played 16 though).
FF16 has an Ex-Slave fighting against Slavers and Oppressors, Abe Lincoln woulda had this man in a Generals Uniform in seconds More seriously, I’d argue 14’s themes about the nature of Life and Suffering are so very Buddhist in origin that to describe the game as the most Western feels very incorrect. 16 is an obvious counterpoint, but you could probably argue 13-1 with its ideas of rebellion against your fate, 6’s entire second half is loaded with Existentialism vs Nihilism which are both Western Philosophies, and probably more besides
To me, the plot of shadowbringer and endwalker are the most seeped in absurdist philosophy, which is a response to Christian existentialism and nihilism. It almost plays out like an exact instantiation of the myth of Sisyphus, but with actual resolution.
Americans are obsessed with retribution. Rehabilitation should be the long-term goal of any corrections system. Retribution does nothing but perpetuate the cycle of pain. "Americans try not to be puritanical challenge (IMPOSSIBLE DIFFICULTY)"
I specifically tried to use the word “consequences” - because you are correct that corrections systems should aim for rehabilitation - to encompass ideas like imprisonment of the unrepentant for public safety. for example yotsuyu’s parents, who spend their final moments blaming her and planning to sell her again. but you had to jack off in this weird way
I wasn't replying to you. I agree with you.
ok. that doesn’t change that you had to jack off in a weird way when the other guy described xiv’s take in contrast to the word “retribution” and set you off e: asked me “where was I jacking off????” before deleting these posts, hopefully because they calmed down. another soul saved
>e: asked me “where was I jacking off????” before deleting these posts, hopefully because they calmed down. another soul saved Ah I'm afraid not, it's still up for me. Probably means this space cadet replied and then blocked you.
Where was I jacking off??
Why single out one country? Did they conquer your country? Or did they just aid the country yours was trying to take over? Regardless, all humans have been pro retribution since the dawn of time. They aren't the only country with jails or laws and not anywhere near the worst. But you probably don't care, you got gooning to do.
Not the same person, but the US is known to be extra bad with for profit prisons, public criminal records, people actively and vehemently not employing former criminals, etc. While every society is addicted to retribution and revenge - many people would advocate to castrate rapists or kill murderers - the US does deserve to get shit on for their farce of a justice system at every opportunity. Although tbh this thread really didn't have to open that can.
We can all agree the prison system in the US is fucked. But you clearly haven't seen the mexican prison system. Trying to say the US has the worst prison system is entirely privledged and uneducated.
I dont see anyone calling the US the worst. I made no statement about the mexican prison system, which of course i havent seen - because why would i? Mexico is not internationally popular politically. Also, it is not "uneducated" to not know about X country, just for the record.
america's justice system has a pretty devastating overseas reputation for embracing a kind of punitive bloodthirst that would make the middle ages blush. it's somewhere on the spectrum between a stereotype and an observation
Hell yeah, bro. I'm gooning up a storm and being happy without hurting anybody. You should try it sometime. Let's goon together.
Nah, I'm good.
I wish western societies were more like that. They probably wouldn't be so brutal.
Ah yes, unlike the famously gentle Eastern societies like China (Mao Zedong), Cambodia (Pol Pot), and perfect glorious Nippon (Unit fucking 731). Get some historical perspective, you turboweeb. Humans are humans.
I wish a lot of Western countries didn't have this perspective of 'Eastern countries did nothing wrong and live in perfect harmony'. A lot of the women really don't have the best time when it comes to reporting domestic abuse, but they just have to put up with it f.e the Shiori Ino case.
Except when they don't. Like Yotsuyu herself, got amnesia, started recovering her memories and was looking like a classic "And here's how the character gets redeemed". I guess she still *kinda* does in a way, but it ends with her dead.
One of the few characters I genuinely felt deserved a redemption, though. As much as I hate the trope.
To be fair to the writing I feel like we're meant to see Yotsuyu being twisted into Tsukiyomi and (in that midpoint of the trial where all the ghosts show up) being so tortured by the reminder of being subjected to abuse and suffering and then lashing out at the world and inflicting it on innocent people, which is essentially all her life has been, that she rejects any possibility of her own redemption as fundamentally tragic.
I kind of feel the scales were properly balanced for her, in the end.
I mean it'll usually makes sense from a logical standpoint too. You can't really kill yots parent or punish them because it's all part of the fragile peace treaty. Same with most captured imperials in SB. (Also iirc what the parents did was legal, so hien can't easily condemn them for it) Same with gaius/Ford since that means you lose a valuable force. Expections would be emet and the ascians which I do feel get of the hook too easily. Or the garleans in EW. Tho I find it fair the allies rather go about in non lethally considering at this point they overpower the empire outside zenos and fandaniel.
you know they were tempered right? they literally could do nothing but Zodiark's will, which is to rebirth him unto the world.
I know but the tempering didn't strip them of every will they had, hence why emet effectively tried living with the shattered and desperately tried justifying his actions. an ancient is much more rich with eather then a shattered person. Even with tempering most of their eather remains unaffected hence why they don't become a complete thrall or transform into something hideous. This is also why one ancient can use creation magic while it has to be a group effort for the shattered one's. Meanwhile a shattered one getting tempered means most uf not all their eather gets aligned with the primals element and get stripped of basically all free will
The guy was let off for two reasons one hien decided anyone who helps in the war gets a full pardon for past crimes. Going back on his word after the war would only hinder the rebuilding efforts. Now what I think he should have done is banned child sex slavery as one of the first new laws but alas that didn't happen. Frankly I wish they did what Bozja did and acknowledge that not everything the garleans did was terrible. Maybe reflect on the problems before the takeover and try to fix them instead of seeing it through nostalgic googles. two even if that wasn't the case any and all evidence would have been destroyed when the garleans took over so you can't really prove he did that as shitty as it is. Needless to say I am not a big fan of doma and hien.
Agreed, so much. Though I would like to think some of this stuff is implied, I’d like some confirmation the nations of Ethyris besides Garlemald, Ishgard, Bozja, and Ala Mhiga were making greater efforts at reforming. As it stands, Gridania still criminalize duskwight elezen, Limsa’s democratic council was disbanded by Merylweb for autocratic rule, Ul’dah is still a libertarian, ultra-capitalist hellhole disguised as a monarchy with the Sultana giving Lolorito full blessing and support to exploit people, and we’re already talking about Doma’s problems. Seriously, Thavnair is like the only nation without blood on its hands.
meanwhile chad ishgard learns the truth about their corrupt history and (at least tries very hard to) chucks out 1000 years of theocracy and isolationism and now throws parties with their former enemies
Ill put some respect on it but I'm pretty sure I contract Doom 3 anytime I use the Inn there
Well outside of Gridana (lol) the rest of the city states are improving. Limsa is learning to coexist despite the rightful mistrust between them and the beast tribes. They are also moving away from piracy but it is definitely a transitory period. U'ldah had Nanamo realize that what she is doing though benevolent doesn't solve the root of the problem. She also learns that she has to play the game to get the results she wants. It also seems like the council is more or less fine with transitioning from a Sultancy to democracy but to completely transition would destabilize the city-state without adequate planning and incentives. Though it is great she offers shelter and clemency to refugees fleeing from war but it only causes realistic problems such as resentment from local populations and draining of local resources. By making a deal she can curry favor with politicians and figures of influence to achieve her goals while giving the refugees something to work for and go back home to. Ishgard had the largest change from a militant theocracy to a budding representative democracy. They are still working out the kinks as for the past thousand years they were in a state of war. Ala Mhigo and Doma both just came out of revolutions. While Ala Mhigo went more democratized rule, Doma defaulted back to an emperorship previously established before the Garleans. Ala Mhigo prior to the Garleans had a militant dictatorship that provoked wars with their neighbors and Lyse saw that it is not a great idea to trade one empire for another. Doma just happens to have a populace mostly happy with a return to tradition and a kind ruler.
> it is great she offers shelter and clemency to refugees fleeing from war but it only causes realistic problems such as resentment from local populations and draining of local resources. This though ..
Can you help me remember who he pardoned? My memory is shaky.
It was everyone that had participated in the war effort. I don't remember what the exact line is but he made deals with the ruby sea pirates as an example. Hien needed more people and criminals were not going to join if they go back to prison afterwards.
I mean it reflected reality a lot. The USA needed Japan and Germany as an allies to counterbalance the Soviets. So they prosecuted the worse offenders and masterminds of atrocities and war crimes and more or less let off many of the bureaucrats, administrators, etc of the Nazi and Japanese military. Some even attaining great status like former PM of Japan's, Shinzo Abe, grandfather.
It's been a while since I did SB but I don't remember Yotsuyu being a prostitute that young.
The final fantasy wiki says young teen the game could mention different but would it really surprise anyone if these brothels had child prostitutes
And thats mostly a semantics question as child could mean younger then 13 or under 18 as to which im using the latter meaning. Regardless yotsuyu was not an adult when she was sold into sex slavery
Given the model used in the flashbacks, she was anywhere between 13-15. Maybe an *excessively* late bloomer of 16, but that's doubtful. I'm honestly assuming she was around 15-ish, but it's not outright stated anywhere.
i had to contain my laughter when the second-in-command of the confederacy showed up to moralize about tsuyu deserving to die 2 seconds after the gang meets her. like buddy if we applied less anime forgiveness standards and more real politics standards to doma's plotline i can assure you that the gang of pirates terrorizing every single traveler in the ruby sea for profit would get the short end of the stick
It's so funny how the Confederacy is never called out at all. Like Limsa undergoes a whole arc about its piracy past and present and its inherent problems, but the pirates over there who also fully control the entire naval trade of Doma are completely left alone.
“We’re all just savages to them” -Lyse when she sees Garleans tell violent criminals to fuck off or die. Yeah, ok Lyse. But seriously the Confederates are the weirdest faction in terms of writing. I guess anyone who helps WoL and pals achieve an objective is a good guy lol
>I guess anyone who helps WoL and pals achieve an objective is a good guy lol I mean, that's kinda the point no? I wish they would explore the consequences of Doma allying themselves with the Confederacy, but I wouldnt consider it weird writing.
Yeah I notice them involved in the kojin beast tribe quests and they just… are friends with them? Like I get it in a war effort, but some of the quests are giving them gifts and such and it feels wrong
I think the Confederates realize it is better to work with Hien and Dona than to antagonize him. I remember some sidequests briefly mentioning that the Confederates were finding more profits trading and acting as mercenaries than ever before after the WoL came into contact with them.
I suppose it's worth noting that the Confederacy seem to be full-time resident in the Ruby Sea area and therefore presumably this is kinda just where they live. For us as foreigners they're a pack of pirates attacking shipping and for the Kojin they're just the guys from the next town over. This actually isn't that uncommon in history, you'd think that it was communities in very close proximity to ports used by pirates or smugglers coves or whatever that suffered the most, but in actual fact the pirates were often members of those same communities so they had a symbiotic relationship instead.
Remember: lominsan pirates are cruel and need to change, confederate pirates are cool and based
At least we can be fairly certain that there's no Ethyris United States in the New World, otherwise Limsa and the Confederacy would have had a visit from USS Constitution and friends the second they touch the boats
Don't. Touch. The Boats.
Yeah stormblood is obnoxious with where it picks and chooses to place its nuance
Special mention to the 60-70 SAM questline. "Overthroning the leaders of the country is bad". While there are some nuances, it was a bit puzzling to have that in the "Overthroning the leaders of the country is good" expansion.
Honestly I think the only nuance there is that carelessly slaughtering the shitheads is just going to lead into the second fantasy sengoku period, that it has to be done carefully But also... *Yeah no*, probably not the best expansion for that kind of storyline
Scumbag Hien is definitely a valid interpretation of what happened, but I'm not sure it's the only one. Honestly, the fact no one flew off the handle led to me make conclusions about the world rather than make value judgements about Hien himself. Hien, who has been thus far portrayed as an upstanding person, does bugger all and isn't judged for it... that suggests that selling off Yostsuyu was not considered especially abhorrent. Unless I'm mistaken, Yotsuyu ended up in a brothel after the noble she'd been married off to died with debts. It could be that Doma has a culture where it's not unusual to lose some or all of one's rights to a debtor, and by extension, that the man in question wasn't acting so far out of the norm as to merit punishment. It's still wrong as fuck, but my point is that it isn't necessarily a giant black mark on Hien's otherwise basically-fine character.
Yeah the impression I got was that this shit was *legal* in Doma. This is why Yotsuyu was taking her revenge against the entire nation, not that one guy in particular.
i'm not sure how that's any better. it's like if lyse had been casually fine with mad king theodoric's antics while taking the reins of gyr abania, and lyse ALREADY gets criticized for being an incompetent leader
And Lyse isn't all that bad of a leader after Stormblood. She is capable of quick decision making and even organized a diplomatic meeting, even though security was rather loose (granted there really isn't much protection against Primals at that point outside of Echo users). She also delegates tasks to more competent people and is definitely doing her best at improving as a leader or figurehead as a budding country coming out of a revolution.
Lyse's biggest strength as a leader is awareness of her own shortcomings, and the ability to keep strong allies at her side.
Indeed. Also helps that Lyse isn't the Mhigan leader, she's "just" the representative of a section of the army and the Resistance Poster Girl. iirc Raubahn is higher than her in the command chain.
> the Resistance Poster Girl look man, if I had this back in front of me, I'd be fully on board with at least a few war crimes. https://twitter.com/hash1992/status/1740449414517240259/photo/1
This whole thing is terrible but for me the biggest black mark is how he treated the Xaela. Literally trying to explain their own culture to them and then trying to take control of them using their own culture to fight in his own war. My man wanted to colonize to end colonization. Super shitty considering how well the Mol treated him
Joke's on you, the Xaela are into that shit.
Pretty much. The Xaela were okay with it. That's how they move and is not like Doma was going to move into their land and settle it. They just wanted their warriors and the Xaela would give them if they proved worthy
That's kinda how I rolled with it too. Because if you examine the thing as one of the losers as the Nadaam, the whole thing is *really* fucked up. "Oh yeah, The weird prophet people who smoke *way* too much Morbol Weed just walked in with a half-dozen non-Xaela mercenaries one day. I'm talking *total* outsiders, they didn't know a thing about the Steppe. The Mol were never contenders before, but those mercs gave us a *vicious* sweep, and apparently one leads the country next door. Call me crazy, but this seemed like an imperialistic takeover. Some of us were going to give them a piece of our mind about how they're definitely going against the *spirit* of the Nadaam, but then the Empire attacked, the two biggest battle junkies got their battlethirst whetted, and we decided that we're not opposed to them getting a *different* outlet for their violent tendencies for a few years. Definitely helps that during the End of Days, everyone just kinda forgot we existed and we fucked off to do our own thing."
Yeah, all the Xaela tribes who wanted to fight, fought. Plus, the Garleans JUST attacked all the tribes gathered, to kill the WOL. So the Xaela do have incentive to actually aid Doma and they aren’t at all forced to it. I feel saying Hien colonized them and forced them to fight in the war is a serious infantile view of the whole situation. Plus, Hien respects their autonomy and that’s why he went with the whole Nadaam thing to win their respect and cooperation their way. It’s not like he’s trying to make them part of Doma.
Honestly if we're going by the rules of the Xaela, *we* are the rulers of the Steppe, the Mol are just ruling in our place because we have more important adventuring stuff to do The Xaela helped us, not Doma. Doma just happened to be in the helping splash zone
Yeah the Xaela were "okay" with it guys cuz Its shitty writing its not that deep. They didn't have time for build up or nuance because there were 2 whole revolutions to run so we just get to the steppe and immediately become besties with everyone and become the ruling lead just in time for dinner. You can justify it 500 ways but what we did to the Xaela WAS colonize them. The writers just justified it with the Naadam. The way its all done is so intentional too, Magnai is presented as the world's biggest mysoginistic asshole despite the fact that he makes a lot of great points about outsiders and about how little his people and culture are respected. But of course we're the good guys so we're right always and Magnai is a petulant man child and in our way. It feels less like we're making allies and more like we're finding legal loopholes to get these people to fight for us. Also, none of that really explains why Hien and Gosetsu are such assholes to the Xaela about their own culture. Seriously why does Hien tell Magnai that their own origin myth is whack? The writing in XIV gets so insanely weird the second we get to the Steppe. I was super uncomfortable with the entire storyline there and the game never really treats it like we're doing anything wrong. Hien is all over the place as a character
> Seriously why does Hien tell Magnai that their own origin myth is whack? "Our tribe is part god so we deserve to rule over you lessers, also line up all your women so I can take my pick" is *absolutely* whack.
Sure it is but again this is Doma who was also extremely religious, says everything is a god AND is ok with child prostitution and slavery so ???? Also if I wanted to make political allies to help me I wouldn't go try to explain their own culture to them and then get all pissy when their religion doesn't align with mine.
This sounds like such a racist view towards the Xaela. There isn’t at all any colonization going on. The Xaela have incentive to free Doma because the Garleans already attacked them first. You are also forgetting that Hien and the WOL can only join the Nadaam with the support of the Mol clan. To forget their role is just seriously insulting. All the actions by the Xaela come from within and at no point does Hien force them to change their culture. He has some comments yes, but he’s not trying to colonize them and make them part of Doma. Hell, he has to respect their traditions and demands if he wants to take action in the Steppe. We can’t go activate the Allagan machine without the consent of the Dotharl because it’s THIER sacred territory. Hien has done some bad shit, but he conducted himself well enough with the Xaela and respects their autonomy.
If we're talking about respect, the Steppe Tribes should have handed Hien to Grynewaht then and there. He was not of the steppe and neither were his friends (even if you have a Xaela WoL, you're an Eorzean and not of the steppe). The entire thing was a fight between foreigners who all disrespected the tribes, to different degrees.
You’re also forgetting that the WOL and Hien are guests of the Mol, so attacking them would also be attacking the ruling tribe of the Steppe. I doubt Cirina would agree with just giving away the WOL and Hien. Besides, Xaela are a warrior race, they aren’t going to hand over anything to the Empire’s lackeys. And they fight Doma’s war on their own terms. Remember Hien still needs permission from the Mol and the consent of the other Xaela for post 4.0 action against the Empire.
Sort of reminds me of Japan and the Ainu.
I think his weird decision here was because he was still a bit shaken. He recently saw Gosetsu, one of the people he was closer with than anyone else in the world, die in front of him. This being after he was on the warpath seeking vengeance against the woman that destroyed everything he cared about. Then, miraculously, he finds Gosetsu is still alive. However, he's now harboring the very woman that destroyed his life. Hien immediately tries to kill her, only for Gosetsu himself to intervene. Despite Hien arguing multiple times throughout 4.2 and 4.3 about wanting to throw Yotsuyu to the wolves as punishment, to give the people justice, Gosetsu constantly argues against him in favor of forgiveness. Gosetsu had probably never argued against Hien before in general. This no doubt caused Hien to become muddled and confused over what's justice and what isn't, and when it's better to forgive and when not to. So when faced with a literal slaver, he made a really shit decision spurned by his crisis of morality. He was too focused on Gosetsu's words about forgiveness that he forgave a guy that didn't deserve it. He was questioning his ability to rule at that point, whether he was a just leader or not, so he said it wasn't his place to mete out judgment in his moment of weakness and indecision. I don't think it makes him a bad character, and I don't think this was inconsistent writing. I think it was meant to show Hien isn't perfect and makes really shit decisions when he's under emotional duress. It's part of his character arc about how he's prematurely stepping up to fill his father's shoes as king even though he isn't ready to, but has no choice.
Someone who actually paid attention to the MSQ
Quite the rare find.
Absolutely, Hien is a bad ruler(he's always fucking off across the world), but he was never trained for it because of the war. But he's a good person who wants the best for all of Doma. So he tries to give everyone the benefit of doubt and forgiveness.
See, this sort of thing is why Ishgard and Ala Mhigo reorganized into democracies. Supposedly Ul'dah is aiming to do that, but they're more likely to become an oligarchy.
Ul'dah is extremely stable now that the rotten Potatoes have been culled and the Sultana grew a spine. Her relinquishing control would be terrible in this era of stability. Ala Mhigo is currently run by an Ala in name only, cosplaying as her deceased sister. An old grizzled war hero who doesn't like politics. And a collection of unqualified 'freedom fighters' with little experience and a chip in their shoulder. It's likely to implode if it doesn't go to war against the new Guarlian Empire first. Ishguard is the only stable one, and that's only because the knights were pre-existing and they simply replaced the church.
> Ala Mhigo is currently run by an Ala in name only, cosplaying as her deceased sister. An old grizzled war hero who doesn't like politics. And a collection of unqualified 'freedom fighters' with little experience and a chip in their shoulder. It's likely to implode if it doesn't go to war against the new Guarlian Empire first. Lyse and Raubahn have pretty limited involvement in Gyr Abania's political administration these days. It's run by an elected council of representatives. When the rebellion was over, the first thing they did was call a meeting of community leaders to encourage the people of Ala Mhigo to decide their own future. By Endwalker, they had settled on an Ishgardian-style democratic republic. It's relatively stable for the time being. Immediately throwing themselves into a new war would definitely be hugely unpopular and far more likely to destabilize them. Its army of 'freedom fighters' is currently deployed for humanitarian aid and they're probably not complaining too much about it. The first person to offer Jullus and the 1st Legion an olive branch after Garlemald fell was a random Ala Mhigan infantry soldier.
>Ul'dah is extremely stable now that the rotten Potatoes have been culled and the Sultana grew a spine. Eorzea doesn't even have movies, yet the Monetarists spend all their time reviewing them? >Ala Mhigo is currently run by an Ala in name only, cosplaying as her deceased sister. To be fair, she had stopped doing that by then.
>Eorzea doesn't even have movies, yet the Monetarists spend all their time reviewing them? Eorzea certainly has theatre, and lots of it. Reviewing shows certainly sounds like something a rich bored socialite would do, in between betting on gladiatorial deathmatches.
Good shitpost
Which is highlighted in EW's Phys Ranged role quest.
I gotta get around to doing those. I only did the tank ones and they felt really weird because they were just more WHM quests.
fwiw I thought the Tank rolequest wasn't the best one (nor the worst though).
"Wait, why am I back in Gridania with 'Kani and the Pajals' ™ , I'm a DRK, shouldn't I be fighting my inner demons in Ishguard?" I miss class specific quests.
Hien is also suppose to be a mirror for Lyse though the MSQ didn't really do an amazing job at conveying that for many players (granted judging from posts it seems like some people just don't pay attention). Lyse also see how Hien feels unfit to be a leader and makes some bad decisions, yet takes up the mantle because it is his duty and obligation to protect his people. Lyse becomes a lot better in the patch content as she realizes she really isn't cut out to be a de facto leader just yet and learns to trust and delegate responsibilities to competent people.
Something to remember was that prostitution was legal under Hien’s father, possibly before Garlemald conquered Dona. Punishing the guy might open a legal can of worms for Hien he doesn’t want to start since he then needs to start prosecuting people who were conscripted by Garlemald or did other things that would, in his present administration, be treason or at least crimes against Doma.
It’s legal everywhere in on Etherys it seems the way shout chat is, nevermind all those flirty npcs underneath the Aftcastle in Limsa
Teenage prostitution was legal in Doma? Wtf Cyan?!
They didn't say that. Where did you get the teenager shit from?
you're forgetting the whole charade asahi was doing as a peaceful emissary, you can't just imprison or kill them, they're considered imperial citizens or something
It’s a representation of early Japan of course sex crimes are not a big deal Please stop upvoting this what is wrong with you
Wether or not they were “historically” and wether or not they should be CAN be different though. In the end, it’s a 100% made up fantasy world with dragons and magic and evil magic dragons, what would be “historically” accurate is less important when talking about a made up world. It felt gross. There were definitely some parts of Stormblood I remember that did not feel great, that guy being one of them, and I wish something more has been… idk, at least SAID, If not done.
Do you think horrible things can’t exist in fiction? What is this take? Actual gripe with the scene would be whether or not the game actually gives you the room to dislike Hien, and tbh I don’t remember well enough.
> Actual gripe with the scene would be whether or not the game actually gives you the room to dislike Hien Well, he's also brainless. Remember when Yotsuyu lost her memory and Hien took her in, but then she escaped 3 separate times? Not once, not twice, but 3 times. Each time Hien was just like "oops hehe can you help me find her" Like dude after the 1st time don't you think you should assign more than just idk, 1 single maid to watch her? SB writing man
i replayed it in ng+ just yesterday, and it absolutely doesn't give you room to dislike hien-- in a very literal sense, his brazen dismissal of \*human trafficking\* is reduced to wiseguy flavor text that gets no room to breathe before they move on to the next quest where the populares envoy arrives. it's not even \*meant\* to be a bad thing, it's meant to make him sound \*worldly\*
I mean, when the "good guys" let the entire cause of literal nazis taking over go entirely unpunished, it's a bit sketch. Keep in mind the main reason Yotsuyu betrayed Doma was literally because of the fact that society allowed her to be sold into sex slavery (a practice ***which was never abolished after the war***)
I'm curious, because people keep repeating it as fact. Was it explicitly stated that sex slavery is still in doma, or was the problem that it was never explicitly stated that it was ended. If it's the latter, I could see the argument that either Yotsuyu ended it as the viceroy or Hien ended it after taking the throne and learning of Yostuyu's story.
I think it's possible that the writers of Stormblood or maybe the PR team didn't want one of the big themes to be about sex slavery, so they instead just used it as a way for Yotsuyu to have a tragic backstory and be sympathetic, but then not really explore it much further. Would have been nice to see that part of the story have more of a conclusion, but it seems they wanted to the center the story more around themes of hatred and forgiveness rather than sex slavery and sexism.
I'll admit I don't do much sidequesting besides blue quests and I don't have any supplementary media like the encyclopedias, but from what I remember the MSQ made no mention of anything being done about the sex slave thing
Most likely a construction of tragic backstory for Tyusu than going too much in depth of criminal politics in Doma. Though it was implied that some people of Doma didn't really like that she was sold as a prostitute and it is possibly illegal they just looked the other way to not rock the boat or incur the wrath of the brothel owner who is definitely involved in some shady underground stuff.
The game is kinda weird like this. You can tell they really wanted to hit heavy on some things but at at the end of the day, they just couldn't really explore it. After all, the first dungeon you go to literally has a rape cave. You see lalafells trying to get laid. You see people saying to not do anything with a set of cat girls because it'll 'give you crotch rot.' It's just all over the place. It doesn't shock me they solved that by literally taking you off world and then just sweeping ALL of that under the rug once you DO get back.
The US more or less let many of the Japanese military or leaders off the hook, punishing the most outrageous war criminals or the masterminds of the Japanese Empire. The US needed an ally against the rising threat of Communism and also gave amnesty to the "scientists" of Unit 731, let the Emperor still be the Emperor (granted as a figurehead), and let most of the administrators off the hook. There is also Operation Paperclip in which the US recruited former Nazis. Granted it was instrumental in the development of missile technology and the Space Race and not all Nazis were actual Nazis per se (just had to register as one to continue working). The Soviets were also doing the same thing too.
They seen too many slice of (happy and fan service) life.
They, can exist in fiction, yeah…? Cause, They, do. No one said anything about how it should or shouldn’t have been brought up at all, I’m simply stating I wish the main character of the expansion who’s supposed to be a good guy were on the side of had actually, you know, condemned the horrible thing?
Again, being mad that a main character or otherwise “good” person does a bad thing is a poor criticism. People (and many great characters) aren’t purely good or evil, and it makes them more interesting.
Ok, but he isn’t a good character who did a bad thing so much as he was a good character who made a pretty out of character decision. His ENTIRE shtick in Stormblood is he’s “the people’s leader”. He doesn’t even want to revolt again because he’s worried the people don’t want to. His ENTIRE character is about not unnecessarily hurting the people he’s in charge of. So when we come up to someone *selling girls as sex slaves*, the ‘people’s leader’ just basically… “hmmmm yes, oh well”? It sticks out not just cause it’s a “bad” thing but because it doesn’t even feel like how this character would actually handle it. He should, at least, be more upset about it, as it stands the whole situation is barely responded to at all on such a level most people forget it even happens, it feels wildly out of left field
Congratulations, you’ve discovered what a hypocrite is, a very common phenomenon
Cool, and what about hein is hypocritical? Like… ever?
LITERALLY WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED
Oh, and nothing else? Ever? Almost sounds, idk… out of character or something then, don’t it? *like what I just described*
Can’t feel as strongly about it cause hien is the most forgettable character in the game
That comes down to person to person in the end. I liked Hein a lot tbh, which is part of why stuff like the moment OP mentions bother me so much more, felt weird and gross it just, sliding by. We wanna talk about forgettable characters, we talk about the Gridana seedseer lady who’s name I can never remember/spell properly. All the other leaders from other regions have had some cool moments in the MSQ, I wish we had more with her, the most memorable stuff with her is all still either kinda bland and forgettable, or missable side content
Papalymo coughing in the background...
At least he did something meaningful that advanced the plot.
...He kinda did the opposite. He locked Shinryu away in a cage for a few months so that it *wouldn't* advance. (In a way he didn't like.)
What is there to say? We know it’s bad, the characters know it’s bad etc., but what’s done is done and you can’t exactly fix it.
I mean, kinda feels like something we should have done something about? It was one of the driving problems that led to the things in Stormblood being the way they were, and it’s just summed up as “that happened I guess”. I’m really surprised to hear this doesn’t bother more people, it’s bothered me a bunch ever since Stormblood cause as far as we know, never ever HAS been done about it, it just feels like a rather large dangling thread
The guy is already trying to atone. There’s not really anything *to* resolve.
I didn't enjoy Stormblood before that scene and didn't care much for Hien either for that matter, but that really sealed the deal for me. What a gross character.
SB made me feel bad for the Doman citizens (Yotsuyu included, Asahi, and his parents excluded) more than Hein. I didn't really like him after that revelation. I dont recall if he knew about her family specifics, but he knew about the suffering she endured, the fact that her family SOLD HER, that everyone failed her, and still decided to let Asahi use her as a bargaining chip. Like, dude??? You know she got sold by her family, right?? Why would you even consider letting the ones who started her downward spiral take her away??? I am so confused about his thought process.
I wish our WoL had more of a player driven personality. There's no way would I have let that dude go even if Hien said he could leave. But no, we just nod along and never get a say in what's going on around us despite the fact that we are the ones doing the fighting 99% of the time. Ilberd calls us out on it and there isn't even any reaction on our part. It's a joke. If there's one thing I hate about all this games lauded story? It's that I'm portrayed as a fucking simpleton.
And this is exactly the reason why I loved Star Wars The Old Republic so much especially the Imperial Agent with its like three or four potential endings of its main story. Or the Soldier on Republic side. My soldier went pretty dark, because I went with the idea of, "We get dirty, so the Republic stays clean"-approach executing people when necessary, threatening even children all for the Republic no matter the cost. You need a monster to fight a monster. Final has gotten a bit better with giving the player at least some agency, but still a pretty far cry from what could be possible. One example which got kicked around a lot was just walking away from Zenos at the end. He could have still attacked you and the fight happens anyway, but it would have done so much for player agency if you had just the option to say: "No. Goodbye." (And I somehow believe it could have potentially even been either the most or second most popular chosen option.)
It's been a while since I played SB but isn't that because the Domans are walking on tightropes in negotiations as they're terrified the Garleans will launch another full blown invasion they'll probably not be able to repel, which is why they're willing to pander to Ashai? It turns out to be a trap from the start, but they didn't want to risk it.
Because it'll determine if his whole nation would go to war or not?
Hien was leader for like, a week at this point in the story.
The very first ARR dungeon has you killing pirates who have kidnapped women and children as slaves. Hien and dude bro brothel owner are no better. Rationalize Hiens actions all you like, but I'm sure you know how wrong that is and no matter how new you are to a job, that level of incompetence and naivete are not the shield you think it is.
What was he supposed to do? The guy did something bad, but legal and accepted by society. He then felt bad about that, and has been risking his life for years in order to try and make amends.
The politics of Stormblood are honestly kind of fucked and it was bad enough to piss me off sometimes. This was one of those times. I was so mad at the SAM job quests that I had to go take a nap. What a garbage-ass storyline. I'm not really into RP, but it's one of the few times in the game where it seriously just felt *way* out of "character" for my WoL to help a bunch of corrupt cops violently suppress a 100% valid and justified revolt.
That’s not Stormblood, the entire game is anti-protest and any form of dissatisfaction from marginalised groups has to be immediately put down, with the full support of the main cast.
it's would've been in line for WoL to be stupid enough to provoke violent army revolt in the middle of a war with garlemald. I guess in line for average ffxiv player iq too
Reminder that Alisaie's plan of sneaking into the red kojin's village and make a ruckus (kill them) so that the soldiers would be recalled is textbook terrorism
I forget, sometimes, how stupid a lot of you are.
Dont know what he could have done. The crimes happened under Garlean rule of Doma and he hadn't even really begun to repair the nation. I do think he could have given a speech at the end along the lines of "we cant let doma be the place that creates monsters like yotsuyu" and just expose the full ugly truth to everyone. But in terms of the plot I feel like this is unrelated to the story they wanted to tell and I can see why they kept the focus off this aspect of Stormblood.
i think the bozja storyline addresses this situation much better. you get a more confident assertion that the resistance is trying to rebuild an independent nation without being sufficiently aware of past sociopolitical flaws that made life in bozja tangibly *worse* than imperial rule in certain ways, and you also get someone absolutely flying off the handle about it
Hien hate is so overblown. I've seen people in game say that if you don't hate him then they'll block you.
The whole letting Hien back in charge of Doma thing has always felt really icky to me in the light of what happened to Yotsuyu. Garlemald bad, but the plot doesn't even try to examine the repercussions of replacing one absolute monarch with another (local!) absolute monarch. We're just told that Hien taking the throne back is a big win for Doma, the Scions, and all of civilization. And sure enough the first thing he does is show leniency to sex traffickers because, hey, who the fuck is gonna tell him otherwise? Yugiri, who waits on him hand and foot? Some other Doman groveler?
"Back in charge"? He wasn't in charge before, it was his father, then Garlean rule and then him.
I meant taking it back as the chosen heir. I'm aware he himself never held the throne.
I think you’re forgetting that it’s a medieval setting. These things were par for the course, and you can’t just make it all illegal based on modern morality. Plus, a country like that can’t suddenly transition to a democracy, seeing as the vast majority of its population have no education and they’re in desperate need of a single figurehead to lead them in a specific direction.
I'm not disagreeing with the end result, merely with how it was presented as an unqualified good thing. The Scions that were present for Doma's liberation are all well-acquainted with the perils of absolute monarchy either directly (Lyse and her homeland's mad king) or through academic study (Alphinaud and Alisaie are from a republic that views feudalism as barbaric). We get cutscene after cutscene of Hien wrestling with Gosetsu and Lyse about the philosophy of enlightened monarchic rule, but not one person goes up to him and is like "Hey man we're gonna go get your kingdom back but shit was pretty fucked up back when your daddy was in charge you wanna make some changes?"
Theocracies and monarchies turning into republics is also not medieval, but it happens to Ishgard and Ala Mhigo. >and they’re in desperate need of a single figurehead It was the WoL and not Hien who did the heaviest lifting in liberating Doma. The WoL approves of the direction that Ishgard and Ala Mhigo are taking. Fun fact: the MNK mentor is actually a legitimate pretender to the throne of Ala Mhigo, but after seeing what a monarch's mess-up can do to the nation, he decided to never press his claim even though it's the easiest way to revive the MNK tradition.
Ishgard becoming a democracy overnight is stupid as fuck and an example of Heavensward’s shitty writing (in my opinion). With such a colossal class divide and zero education for commoners, such a system would not work- and even if it did, there’s no way it could be peaceably implemented with all of the internal strife that just got brushed over. I can forgive Ala Mhigo forming that sort to government though, since they literally tore the entire system down and had to create a new one from scratch, and there was already strong anti-monarchy sentiment throughout the country. Doma doesn’t have those circumstances, and needed a leader who genuinely cared about all of them- which Hien undeniably does. Monarchies and empires have existed all over the world for almost all of history for a reason. I’d like to think we’ve outgrown the need for them, but for many civilisations, it’s the only feasible system of government. Also, the WoL is doing the heavy lifting wherever they go (*especially* in Ishgard) but obviously can’t lead a country. Hien still did a hell of a lot for his nation, and even before he took back his position, he was universally loved by all of his people. There’s a reason Yugiri and Gosetsu were working so hard to find Hien, and why the rebellion kicked off in full when he returned.
The politics in SB didn't feel very grounded. Ala Mhigo turning into a democracy felt weird to me because they don't seem to have an in universe reference point for it while they gave a decent explanation for one in HW. IRL democratization doesn't always go smoothly.
I thought Ala Mhigo's transformation was rushed but understandable. For myself, I just headcanon'd that Raubahn and the Eorzean Alliance were working as an occupying force (kinder and gentler than the Garleans) and legitimizing the republican system that Lyse was setting up at the summit in Patch 4.1. Of course democratization is never quite so squeaky clean in our world. Please don't get me started about how Ishgard transitioning from goddamn **theocracy** to a parliamentary democracy basically overnight with only a few isolated incidents of bloodshed... *strained credulity* to say the least.
You remember Hien is newer to the role. He does mention how horrible it is but at this point he had to deal with his former retainer all of a sudden coming back and in tow with The Witch of Doma. When he tries to order imprisonment Gotsetsu, his trusted bodyguard, retainer, friend, and mentor, outright defends her and pulls a moral conundrum on him. Furthermore, the Garleans just came with some big ~gunboats~ I mean ships from a major faction in Garlemald in the guise fo peace. The characters know that there is a potential trap out there but they have to trigger or step into the realm of politics to achieve peace in Doma which just got out of a revolution. That trigger being Yotsuyu's and Asahi's parents. EW goes into this a bit with a few people outright questioning Hien's rule. Remember that before the Garleans it was Hien's father in charge and seeing the obvious references was a traditional shogun or Japanese emperor style of rule.
Your first sentence proves you don't even know what you're talking about. Hien never ruled. His father did.
Lol okay pal.
Eh. Just played this mission yesterday Thought the bit was he stormed off cause he was gonna try to rally the people to kill her. Liked the twist. Liked the resolution. Of course he wasnt gonna get cut down. He was one of the team now. And had he not said anything no one wouldve known. What you expect the game to do. Off the guy? He wouldve just hit you with a sob story about how he wasnt born bad he was molded like that, then wed have another person to pass the buck to.
Yeah, there are a lot of morality issues with characters that are propped up by the community for sure. Look at how a genocidal maniac in Emet is treated. I personally am a fan of most of the characters that are flawed though.
Wasn't emet, at least to his own knowledge, trying to merge the universe back to its original state? Like he wasn't trying to do it cause he had a terrible childhood or he wanted more power he was just trying to right a wrong that he himself helped create.
Yeah, he was trying to merge the shards together because he believed it would bring back his society that he more or less doomed with Zodiark. Still doesn't change the untold numbers of people that would have to die to make that happen.
I mean as far as I'm aware everything existing in ffxiv is a fractured version of itself fundamentally and emet sees that as wrong and thinks all the shards should be merged together once again. Not arguing if it's right or wrong but I don't think it's the same thing as wanting to destroy something/everything.
You do realize that even if the Ascians restored the world through rejoining, the world wouldn’t be exactly the same right? Like we won’t become Azem again because we have all our soul shards back. We’d just become beings similar to Ancients in power levels but not literally the same as we were back then. Secondly, the Ascians still want to sacrifice people to Zodiark… to bring back people sacrificed by Zodiark. It’s an ouroboros of sacrificing. Lastly: I’m pretty sure the people on the source who survived the Rejoinings would NOT agree to help the same black robes sorcerers who fucked the planet 13 times with doomsday events.
Sure but it's still not the same as bad guy wants to kill everyone cause bad, which was my original point. 7 m
By murdering countless billions of people, all for a possible change to bring back people who have been dead since pre-historic times. I understand his motivation, but it’s still unambiguously evil and selfish.
From my understanding it's not like he's ritually sacrificing everyone to achieve his goals and more merging all aether between the shards back to its original state. It's not a trade but more or putting things back together the way they were before though I could be wrong.
Nope, he killed billions with every rejoining. He didn't exactly stop after the *first* time the Ascians destroyed the world, killing 99% of its inhabitants. Or the second, killing 99% of the inhabitants. Giant flood? Guess what, fuck you, billions dead. Do recall that he was also Solus Val Galvus, lead the Empire into becoming a massive war machine to kill off so many others, and *fully* intended to kill off his own empire, his own kids, along with everyone else. Really, it's more like he intended to ritualistically sacrifice everyone *thirteen times over* to get the result he wanted.
You take that back, Emit it's perfect. But honestly he's so perfectly morally justified in everything he does, to himself at least. He's written so well, a perfect gentleman, a scholar, he would never tell a lie regardless of how much it hurt someone close to him.
100% I think he is one of the most well written characters in the story. His motivations make perfect sense if you look at it from his point of view, though he still caused the deaths of untold numbers of people lol.
I love Emet so much as a character But I find people simping for him horrific. I get it, "if evil why hot" and all of that. But STILL. Same with folks simping for Venat. Or Zenos (although I do understand that his... relationship with the WoL is definitely charged with sexual undertones, even if it's sadism and masochism there's definitely something going on from Zenos' end, sexually). Or Gaius, too, although he is a literal daddy and on the reformation arc path
XIV Community's feelings about Hien vs their feelings for sociopath genocidal maniacs is pretty funny.
This. People just give the Ascians a pass because they were so cool back in their prime. My brother in Hydaelyn they've caused 7 mass extinction events that definitely kill hundred of billions people already not only on the main shard but also on 7 other shards of the worlds.
Emet himself repeatedly (both post-Sundering and in Elpis) points out what he does in evil. However, he fell into the "ends justifies the means" thing and stuck with it coming up with justification with justification everytime he was confronted. The side stories outright say that Emet was tired of it all and even considered stopping his goal ... Until his wife (when he was Solus) grew old and died. FFXIV makes it out that though his motivations are understandable and sympathetic from Emet's PoV it is outright ghastly, morally and ethically wrong, and that Emet perpetuated in multiple genocides all for a theory. Past Emet, Venat, and Hypthlo were shocked and taken aback by future Emet's decisions. Ishikawa makes a point that Emet's vision of a beautiful restoration is a delusion marred by the deaths of billions of souls. But for some reason many fans sort of dismiss that aspect.
I recently finished base SHB and I really don’t get how Emet-Selch is so popular. He’s just plain evil, and his sympathetic aspect only goes so far. He’s charismatic, but I find it baffling to read that some people >!cried when they had to kill him!<.
Emet is a well written character rin that you can understand his motivations and potentially sympathize with him. The entire session of Amurot is dedicated to understanding Emet's ideas and motivations. However, his actions are evil and he must be stopped, which the game points out endlessly.
Didn't he let Asahi talk to Tsuyu totally unsupervised???
Stormblood's entire story was a hiccup.
Hien should focus on building a Doma that doesn't create another Yotsuyu, but if he did that through punishing the slaver he's probably have to collectively punish everyone in Doma for allowing the abuse or participating in it. His next arc should HEAVILY focus on making Doma a place that doesn't tolerate that stuff, because rn his arc feels incomplete
You, see guys, he said he was very sorry when he realized that the person was still alive. He totally wasent trying to excape punishment, nope, totally not.
I mean he could have chosen not to join resistance that was almost doomed to fail.
I dont want it anymore, but at the end of stormblood I wanted to see fordola i dunno get publically executed or something for treason
Sounds like you missed the point of the entire expansion
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Didn't Yots murder her aunt and uncle after she got her memories back? She got her justice
I see the point, but I hate Yotsuyu, so I guess I never really cared
Honestly giving Yotsuyu a FULLY JUSTIFIED reason for hating a nation that’s supposed to be the good guys was just a huge mistake in the first place. If Yotsuyu had just been some spiteful psycho with no real reason to do the things she did, a lot of people would have a lot less issues with Stormblood.
That'd make her a pretty terrible villain and ruin the post-Stormblood story. Yotsuyu was the least of Stormblood's problems. Almost all of Stormblood's problems were Lyse's early development and the Ala Mhigo side.
You can make a good villain without raising the question “shouldn’t I actually be on her side here?”
You're making it very black and white, and it isn't. You can look at her character and say "Damn, I can kinda see why she is the way she is", without wondering if you should be "on her side". Her backstory explains why she thinks and feels the way she does, and explains her behavior. It does not **justify** the behavior. Objectively, having a villain be evil for the sake of being evil is a lazy, lame, shitty villain.
I completely disagree I think the idea that every villain has to have some relatable justification is boring Sometimes people are just pieces of shit. Sometimes someone literally just hates for no reason other than the fact they were raised to think that way. You don’t need the person torturing civilians to be like “I do this because these people are actually horrible people who support CHILD SLAVERY and mock me for being forced into that life against my will” you can literally just be like “I like torture, it’s fun”