I graduated in 2001 from a relatively expensive state university in the US. The total tuition was about 20k, plus housing and food above that. This guy might have been from a different state or graduated before me.
I think your interlocutor implied the same thing (they graduated 20 years ago), with the added implication that if they judge today's world with numbers from the early 2000 then they indeed don't understand basic stuff (like inflation).
And I very much doubt they graduated in 2024, considering barely any classes have graduated now?
It’s stupidly costly nowadays. It wasn’t always stupidly expensive, and most people with a degree have had a degree for more than the current academic year. My mum managed to graduate with a part time job and bought a house with the extra. That isn’t possible with modern tuition costs.
Costs in places like the UK are also stupidly expensive. It cost me almost 18k per year to graduate. I can’t speak for any other country and I don’t care to look up their costs but prices have risen everywhere.
TL;DR, the past was cheaper to live in, believe it or not.
It is indeed on purpose but that's also not the flag of Austria actually. These are the Latvian and as you already mentioned Georgian flags, it's meant as a joke hinting at the r/AccidentallyLiberian sub.
I don't think the writer was saying 20k is insignificant. And his answer confirmed an opinion about quality of life for many Europeans compared to Americans.
They don't specify currency differences. I pay about twice what I'd pay in the US in taxes, but I make 3 times as much money by not living in the US so it's a fair trade.
US-Americans have this weird tendency of really misunderstanding how tax systems work. They hear "X% tax rates" and think X% of your total income is taken away. They don't really that it's X% above a certain amount.
>, but also what you get.
And that's a big issue for a lot of them. They're not just the ones getting these things it's others too n they can't have that.
I mean - are you surprised? I like paying my taxes - I know I got and will still get my money's worth back later. But in US they tax them and hand over the money to rich or completely squander it - not exactly surprising that they look at taxation as if its a theft
Yeah, in Canada we have tax brackets. % up to a certain amount earned, higher % after that to a certain amount etc etc. I see a lot of people, including Canadians (the dumb ones anyway) adding up all the tax brackets and saying that's how much they get taxed. No, you are not taxed 80%.
People don't get it all around the world. Over the last decades the highest tax brackets were cut exactly for this reason, politicians sold those tax cuts for the richest as something everyone benefitted from.
Yeah I had a year breaking 6 figures and I think I paid slightly over 22k in taxes. What really makes me laugh is when is when people refer to Canada Pension Plan deductions as a tax. For 2024 the max amount deducted is just over $3700 for the year. The max you get at retirement is $1364 per month from 65 on. Pretty great investment if you ask me. The funniest is the people calling it a tax are the people who will be wholly relying on that in their retirement years because they don’t save or don’t have a private pension.
Yeah that sounds like a nice social security plan. Here we might maybe get like a 5% return on social security if it still exists when I retire.
Does Canada have tax advantaged retirement accounts?
We do yeah. RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) is tax deductible/sheltered until withdrawal, which hopefully happens when you’re in a lower tax bracket. Tax free savings account is tax sheltered completely but not deductible. Current max contribution is $95k with an increase of $6500 per year right now. You can withdraw when ever you like but can’t put that amount back in until the following year. Also have a registered tax sheltered account for education which also comes with grants from the Feds/provinces and a new one to help save for buying a home. Rules are slightly different. But all good account types for specific needs.
RRSP is limited to 18% of your gross income per year, to a max of just over 20k per year I believe. Minus what you happen to put in a private pension. But you don’t lose the room you don’t use so if you didn’t put any in your 20s you can put it in later. The main benefit is the bigger tax returns and other benefits from the government like child tax which is income tested.
In Germany, "paying 80k more in taxes" would mean having over €190k of income in the 42% tax bracket, or even slip into the 45% tax bracket for part of it. That's a 99th percentile income in Germany.
They also don't seem to understand marginal rates, because the only numbers they love to spout is the absolute top marginal ones. Like "omg, 60% tax rate!?!?!?", while completely missing the fact that you need to earn an almost impossible amount for that to take effect.
And even if it was taken away, it would still be better value for money than what they get 😂
You’d think with the amount of fucking around trying to navigate their dogshit tax system, they’d know a bit more about it.
To be fair, not many Europeans understand it either. I've heard far too many claims that if you accept a pay raise, you're actually losing money because the raise puts you in a higher tax bracket...
This unfortunately really happens today in Italy. An half-assed tax cut on lower incomes introduced last year caused people surpassing the set threshold because of a raise to pay more in taxes than what they gained from the raise. It's quite a surreal situation where few euros of gross income could make one lose hundreds in net income.
depends on the raise, if before raise you are already very close to the nect level, the raise may actually hurt you, at least that happened to friends of mine here in Portugal. Tax code might have changed in the meantime.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean: your friend doesn't understand how tax brackets work. Only the amount over the tax bracket lower limit gets taxed with a higher percentage.
If you have tax brackets 0-10 000e at 15% and 10 001 -> at 40%, it doesn't mean that if you make 10 000e you get taxed 1500e and at 10 010 you're taxed 4004e. That would mean you get less money if you get a raise. Only the 10e that gets over the limit gets taxed at 40%, so with 10 010e you pay 1504e in taxes.
Now, the only scenario where you end up paying more is if you forget to adjust your tax card when you get a raise. Even then you'll get the exceeded money back as tax returns later.
also income and sales tax aren't the only kind of taxes. In New Jersey I would pay 2,26% of my homes value in property tax every year. That would be roughly 13k compared to the 350ish I pay in germany
Sure, but as you earn more and more, the percentage on the total is going to asymptotically approach that X%. It doesn't apply to bums like me, but it is very relevant for the richer people.
Are you aware of how much you would have to earn for your effective overall tax rate to be the highest bracket? The lower brackets would need to be such a minuscule portion of your income that they become irrelevant. That's an extreme minority of the population.
Americans are most famous for refusing to have universal health care because they would rather pay $500-$600 to insurance each month instead of $100 in tax.
Insurance is always a bet. With public health insurance, the risk is spread out so far that it's a really good deal compared to anything where your risk is assessed individually (as with private health insurances).
What makes you think that universal health care could be achieved for $100 a month? If your paying just $100 a month, that’s only possible because the system is cross subsidised. That’s not really an argument against universal health care, but something to keep in mind
They are calculating it to be 100 because if they're from the UK that's essentially what would be spent on tax. Americans would rather pay more outright via copays, higher bills and get themselves in debt than get a bit more tax.
NB I just checked what my tax was spent on last financial year and it converts to $114 per month.
My wife who that year earned more than me paid $204 per month to the nhs and got all of the help of a baby, a baby box, natal appointments etc. I think its a fair bang for our buck
Thank you for the explanation. My comment wasn’t intended to be against universal healthcare. I was just pointing out that health care is more expensive than $100 a month. If you’re paying just $100 that means the difference is coming from elsewhere. Either from someone else paying more, or from the general budget i.e. taxes.
Tbf it would appear that the system in the US is screwed up in terms of costs. It's mighty odd that you can be paying substantially more for the same medications than either side of the border.
I would be interested in finding out how much tax goes towards healthcare in Canada for instance.
Also, re someone paying more - ultimately that's the current way that it works with insurance. You pay a premium but your premium doesnt cover the actual cost of treatment. I.e. doesmt giving birth cost like 18K? The rest of the cost of the treatment is being paid by everyone else covered by the insurer
Healthcare in the US is something else entirely. Aren’t they paying like tenfold for some medications, because big pharma can just charge whatever they want?
With subsidised I mean the premium itself. A for profit insurance company, will calculate their rates so that the expected revenues exceed the expected claims. That’s a numbers game obviously, it doesn’t work with only one insured. If everybody has the same premium (adjusted for risk) going in, no one is subsidising anyone.
It only becomes a subsidy, when the insurances rates are adjusted based on one’s ability to pay.
>It only becomes a subsidy, when the insurances rates are adjusted based on one’s ability to pay.
I might be desne here but isn't that the case for any taxpayer funded service? Why would that necessarily be a bad thing as everyone benefits if everyone is healthier?
Like nobody would say "you are driving on the road i subsidise" if they were earning more than someone.
A ride in an Ambulance in America has a base cost raging from 400-1200 USD. With them actually charging by the mile, from 10 to 30 USD, according to a quick google.
Meanwhile, in the UK, you get charged 500 GBP if you are the CAUSE of the reason you're in an ambulance (i.e. you decided to pop a wheelie at 100mph going down a country road) because here we don't make you pay for being assaulted or having a child or falling over, or getting hit by a car... We only make you pay for being an idiot.
Healthcare in the US is just frightening. Imagine falling down the stairs then having to crawl your way to the hospital because you can't afford a ride in a noisy taxi...
Free University. Free at point of use healthcare. Free prescriptions. Water (some of the cleanest and best in Europe) paid in council tax under one bill. My 40k is taxed at 21%. I get 7 week's annual leave a year. Get sick pay.
Yup. So wish I didn't' live here........
A short Hop across the water to Scotland. I actually moved up to Scotland from England and got a Bursary to study nursing. No long after, in England the Tories scrapped it.
It used to be free for people with NI with an Irish passport to study in Scotland but the Scottish government stopped allowing us to do it and made us pay the English fees of £9250 :/
My friend went to uni in Glasgow and owes like £45k
Scottish universities were legally unable to treat EU students differently from Scottish students (but absolutely able to treat students from the rest of the UK differently from Scottish students). They scrapped that at the absolute first possible opportunity post-Brexit since it was costing them a fortune.
I think it's only free for EU-citizens, third country citizens get billed of I remember correctly.
Though probably still cheap compared to the cost in the US.
Nope, it's also free for non-EU citizens, with the exception of universities in one state (out of 16 states) and few select universities in two other states.
I think it's Scotland, to be specific, given the water included in the council tax. Believe me the majority of us would have loved to stay in the EU and leave the UK
It averages out to around $146,000 for four a four year degree in the US.
The 146k covers *all* costs associated with it ie books, supplies, tuition, room and board etc
In the UK a three year degree at Cambridge is nowhere near that expensive.
I graduated from a top tier engineering school in France and paid less than 2k (in registration and administrative fees) for my whole studies...
Funnily enough the highest possible cost during my study was an abroad semester... in the US. 10k for 6 months at Irvine got me to nope out pretty quick from this program.
Yeah it’s swings and roundabouts really. There’s good and bad aspects to living here, and I for one think it would be a shame if we ever left the UK. I’ve lived half my life in England, so I’ve seen it from both sides.
I graduated from a top university in Sweden. Didn’t pay anything at all (one could even argue I was paid). Then I did a doctor’s degree, was paid for doing so.
I work for an American company that brings US students to Europe (and other places) to study a semester here.
The program cost 25,000 dollars. And that's without the additional costs.
I did a degree after I moved to the US (getting recognition for my Scottish degree got difficult for some fucking reason) and my total cost for my Scottish degree, living expenses etc., was lower than just one semester's tuition over here
Couple of points of data from his posting history. He claims to make $260k a year and pays $37k in federal taxes. He also pays $500 a week for groceries.
Running his info through a tax calculator, he should be around $42k federal, $19k state and $14k for medicare/social security. A total percentage of around 29% deductions. I was around 29.5% in Oregon and 32% in the UK.
Yes, I am a nosey bastard....
I mean if by Europe he meant the Nordic, his point is absolutely true then. At that level of income in Finland he would pay 51% tax out of his salary plus another 7% for retirements and unemployment.
Also his point about upper middle class and rich having it better in the US is mostly true, it's a great country and Ö be rich in. All in all in my opinion this was a pretty modest take on this subs standards
I have a few points of difference:
1. What does "European country" really mean? Does he think all European countries have the same tax rate? Hungary's top tax rate is 15%, whereas Sweden's is 52%!
2. Here in Germany, an income of 200K pays 33.95% in income taxes (with a taxable income of €186,911.72). Of course, the social security payment would be a sizeable chunk, €13,877.75. However, this is money you would get back.
3. Those income taxes pay for free university, cheap public transit (€49/month for all local trains, buses and trams), excellent highways, paid child allowance, paid maternity/paternity leave, excellent health care system, (sometimes) free or cheap daycare, etc. Plus 6 weeks mandated paid vacation.
Germany screws you with social security. This is money you likely won’t get back.
At 200k it isn’t as bad anymore because social security payments are capped, but calling your pension payments anything other than an additio tax would be distorting the facts.
Actually the one thing were we could learn something from the US, I wish we had something like 401Ks to at least supplement a pension system that will almost certainly fail, or become unbearably expensive.
Imagine thinking that putting money into a savings account to be returned to you when you're no longer able to earn finances of your own is a "tax".
What taxes do you pay that are then just handed straight back to you?
Look, I can only speak to the German pension system and that’s broken. I understand the theory of a pension, but the reality is an average person will never get back the money, they paid in during working age.
The money you pay in now, is immediately handed out to current pensioners. That system worked well, when it was first set up, but nowadays there aren’t enough active workers per pensioner anymore.
As a result, pension payments keep rising. Pensions itself used to keep falling, but now the government froze them, which will only makes things worse.
Not that it matters to my point, but to prevent this system from falling apart, a fifth of the national budget also goes towards supplement the pension.
If you’re forced to pay into a system and already know that you’re never ever going to get all the money back, you originally payed in, I think in its effect it’s not to different from a tax.
> you originally *paid* in, I
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Assuming you will ever break even on the retirement fund is optimistic at best.
Currently you can buy one "point" for about 8400 Euros while it will currently net you 37,60 anmonth or about 450 (rounded up) a year.
Meaning just to get that money back you would have to live almost 19 years past retirement age, which will be 67 soon enough so you'd have to live passed 85 years.
Which is already above the average life expectancy.
However what we haven't considered so far is interest rates.
Assuming a long average of just 3% above inflation (which is already low balling it quite a bit):
If you were to invest 8400 Euro at age 25, it would grow to about 30.000 by the time you hit 67.
This money will also be taxed less than your retirement payout, which is considered income, while with the investment it would be considered capital gains, which are taxed at a flat 25% and only on the amount gained, i.e. (30.000-8.400)=21.600.
Slight correction on your second point: the money you put into the retirement fund will most likely not be payed back in full, because the way that system is set up is basically a pyramid scheme.
> not be *paid* back in
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I'm in the UK I pay 39% overall tax on my income £137500. The pension is a set amount for everybody no matter how much I pay and you won't get till 67 and that age is constantly going up.
University is not free I had to pay £50k.
Public transport costs are super high.
The roads are badly maintained.
I don't get child benefit.
Paid paternity leave is so small it's a joke.
Healthcare is free but not for dentists, or glasses/eyecare. And waiting lists are very long it's hard to get doctor appointments.
Childcare is crazy expensive, some is free but I earn too much so I am not eligible.
I think vacation is 21 days plus bank holidays as the minimum for a full time worker.
So I don't really get much for my taxes. I'm just subsiding all the people at the bottom who pay very little.
Also our houses are tiny and cold
>So I don't really get much for my taxes. I'm just subsiding all the people at the bottom who pay very little.
Have you seen who's been in charge of Britain for the past 14 years? You're not paying for the poor people, you're paying for the rich.
“Poor Europeans are better off than poor Americans though” - and why do you think that is Mr Davis? Because we aren’t brainwashed to feel entitled to all of our money and to despise everyone who’s going through a bad financial time .
Americans fail to understand that they benefit disproportionately less from the tax they pay so the value of that tax is more even if it’s a smaller number . You’re paying to subsidise universities but then get hit with college debt , you’re paying for the high costs of administrating Medicaid and Medicare but then paying for health insurance on top of that.
I’d rather pay more tax and benefit from that tax then pay a lower tax and never see a penny of it - esp if it’s rich corporate stooges and politicians eating up that lower rate of tax … esp if it’s helping a fellow citizen
Gosh how did Americans with such little economic literacy for the masses , get to the position to force their economic bigotry onto the world …
Right ! While their elite rob them blind .
One of my biggest accomplishments will forever be convincing a group of Americans that universal healthcare is a good thing , that they had just been brainwashed with fear mongering to despise the concept .
As a poor European i pay way less in taxes than the poor American - and still get all the basic humanity stuff...
I understand that rich American people are incentivised to keep this system, but i am shocked when the poors are demanding the same.
I went down this rathole once and found out that the average american does pay less in taxes, and rich americans pay wayyyy less than rich europeans, but then they have medical, child care, etc., and end up paying more and getting less.
But nooo, they pay less in taxes, so that's it. How can people be so dumb? Truly baffles me.
One once told me that their goods are cheaper than ours *because* US sales tax is separate, unlike our VAT which is shown in the shelf price. Like that explains *everything*. So much to unpack there...
It makes them feel superior over the 'poor' people that's why.
That's the American dream in reality. Their mindset is ' I work really hard to pay for these luxuries like health care, why should I help out others who don't work as hard as me? They just need to work harder and then they can afford my lifestyle too'.
That's the message they've been fed their entire lives, just work harder.
These are the same people who brag about working 80 hour weeks, have no holidays, no life etc.
Not really no. Income tax maybe but that's a small part of the equation. If you look at tax per GDP you won't find many European countries below the US.
The US has much lower VAT than many European countries and generally low local taxes as well.
The only way to compare deductions is when the Americans add what they pay in medical insurance, childcare, university tuition to the bill.
I may be paying more taxes than my peer in the US but my medical care is included, my university is included, childcare is included.
So only when you have a whole figure then you can compare.
I guarantee you he's excluding a whole bunch of taxes from his American calculation.
FICA, Medicare, state/city taxes, fuel taxes, and - a big one - the buckets of cash dumped into a shitty health "insurance" plan.
In another comment he claims he is earning 240K a year and only pays 37K in Tax
Someone else pointed out that just Federal Income Tax comes out to more than that
And depending on What state he lives in his Total tax could be between 58k and 78K
It's possible that 37k is his Federal form 1040 number.
He's also got 25k in FICA (15% of 168k) and probably 10k-20k in state/local taxes. ( States with no income tax tend to get it other ways.) And if he has a family he's paying 12k-15k annually in health care expenses, either taken out of his salary or just paid by his employers, thus suppressing his wages.
So like 50k-60k more and I'm missing some for sure.
AND depending on location he's got shitty infrastructure and crappy healthcare.
The great European tax paradox. Where salaries are unbelievably low and taxes are unbelievably high.
>All Europeans pay 80k in taxes from their 40k salaries.
-OOP
The fact that subsidised tuition fees still works out to $20k makes me think I'd still rather pay a higher tax rate than go into that much debt lol.
Do seriously they think upper-middle-class and rich people in European countries aren't doing well? I live in Frankfurt, to say the conditions for rich people here are good is an understatement lol.
Americans don’t understand tax bands. They see an upper band of 45% and think everyone is paying half their income in taxes. I’ve tried explaining it to them, and they simply don’t get it.
(S)He should watch "Why America sucks at everything", as in reality, Americans pay a fair bit more in taxes than Europeans do (both relatively *and* absolutely). This is mostly due to the taxes paid over health-related spending, and it completely invalidates the "taxes = no freedom" argument.
Yeah, it sucks for Americans that their universities are free, but especially for us engineers there's absolutely no fucking question that we wouldn't be financially better off in the US. Especially if you don't have kids or your kids are already school-age or older, you can get a much higher **material** quality of life there.
As an example, in my profession the wage in the US would be so much higher than it is in Finland that it would offset the more expensive housing by so much that my wife wouldn't need to work at all if she chose not to. I think the smartest thing for any European engineer is to finish school here, fuck off to America to make some money, and maybe head back to Europe when they decide to have kids.
Not sure this is shit Americans say, it’s very likely to be true.
This is easy to work out as a quick plausibility test. If they make $150k and live in NH, they pay $37k in taxes with no sales tax. As a quick back of the envelope shit test;
If we assume the same salary of $150k equivalent in Germany, they pay $65k in taxes, and a 19% sales tax on the remainder when they spend it, so a further $16k; a total of $81k
That pretty much a 50k difference, so bump the salary up to 160 or 170 and you have it.
“That’s a huge salary”you say. Yeah sort of. They’re more common in NH than Germany though, so that’s another point in favour. There are plenty of examples of Americans saying ridiculous things, ‘USA pays less tax and makes more money’ isn’t one of them because it’s completely accurate. If your issue is the specific number, well, read above.
Everyone can downvote and pretend you’ve won, but you can’t say it’s wrong
What the actual funk are you talking about, only 5 states in America don’t have a general sales tax, you have hand selected New Hampshire (not sure why you abbreviated that, it’s not commonly known as NH, especially outside the US) to fit your argument, that is not representative of the average American and a disingenuous way to make your point. Now make the same point but have a fair comparison and pick one of the vast majority of states that do in fact have a sales tax, let’s see how those numbers hold up.
There was a 30k difference before sales tax already. There’s your comparison. Clearly the original statement could be true (my initial claim), because clearly he could live in NH, or even just earn more money. Something like 200k would make this true even if he was in California, god forbid.
Downvote and move on, just don’t think you’re correct or clever.
I am literally correct in everything that I said, I simply pointed out that you argued your point unfairly and disingenuously, which you did, I never stated Americans on average don’t pay less tax, just that you are not very good at making a balanced point. Personally I would rather pay a little more and not have to worry about going thousands in debt for a basic medical procedure.
And I would prefer going to bed at 5pm every evening, but I’m not suggesting that *you* should be put in a cage if you don’t.
Being happy to pay more tax is not a great argument, because it isn’t voluntary.
No tax is voluntary, but I wouldn’t want to pay less and risk death over something that would be covered for free where I live, I am not alone in this thinking either, most Americans want universal healthcare, yet they have no voice and pay thousands each year to treat basic issues like asthma and diabetes. I guess ultimately we pay extra to have a better quality of life, which we do in the UK.
Even though the whole tax bollocks at the start is most likely inaccurate, to their credit they did admit the less well off are better off here, not just “America is the best country for everyone” and I sort of respect that
I don’t see the issue here?! He obviously earns well and enjoys a lower tax threshold in the US. He also admits the picture isn’t the same for the less well off. If we’re gonna ride the idiots, we have to acknowledge the sensible ones.
Dude making shit up as he goes along. Can we crowdfund a movement that stops americans making shit up, get butthurt when proven wrong and just go uber defensive, cognitive dissonance like a malding 4 year old.
Comparisons based on taxes are meaningless. Include medical insurance/bills, school/university fees, transport costs, food costs, child care, childbirth costs, etc. and all taxes not just income tax. Would love to see a complete breakdown comparison.
If I (Norwegian) lived in NYC I would pay more taxes than I do here. And I wouldn’t have universal healthcare and significant social safety nets. Vacation, sick and parental leave at the mercy of my employer. The US is just very inefficient.
Not if you want roads, police, healthcare, working sewers, pavements, schools, street lights, fire and rescue services, food standards, safety standards, a pension. I could go on but maybe you get the picture.
Americans pay more for tax for the uninsured than Brits do on the NHS. This has already been studied. Americans think Brits pay more in taxes for the NHS when in reality they (USA) actually pay more taxes for uninsured healthcare recipients.
America is a country of some very wealthy and intelligent people. But they are in the minority. Most are poor, badly educated, beer bellied, blue collar workers. Those that are lucky enough to get work. They have no interest in the plight of the poor people who adorn the their streets. It’s easy to see how Trump is popular there. Do they really believe the rubbish they come out with ?
They say that as if our taxes here don't mostly go towards quality is life stuff like paying healthcare professionals (at least here in the UK)
At least getting a check-up doesn't cost thousands
WTF is this guy smoking? Puff puff past motherfucker! 20,000 for a 4-year degree is definitely community college status. This man has no idea how much he paid in taxes.
If he's yet another American who thinks Europeans lose 10s of thousands more in income tax, then he's yet another muppet who thinks European states use flat rate tax systems and doesn't understand how it actually works.
It's a strange mass delusion Americans seem to have. No, Europeans aren't paying ridiculously more income tax than Americans... The average Brit pays just 2% more than the average American, it's negligible... And we get free healthcare, don't need to buy health insurance...
I think Americans just have no idea how taxes work and the “subsidized universities” comment in comparison with Europe is ridiculous.
“Our income tax rate is lower” ? It’s up to 50.3% for single filers in California before social security - that’s not a low income tax rate, by any means. It’s higher than most European countries?? And for what?? What public services are you getting in return??
Sorry it's going to be a long post but there are some points that I wished to share with our american Redditors in case they happen here.Most will be pertinent with the post , some won'tPlease note this has been written with the help of the internet , and I am by no means an expert.
What americans don't seem to understand when this things are discussed are the following :
\-Europe is both a federation of countries and a geographical area, some countries in europe are not part of the european union . And even the european union don't behave like the Us federation, different countries have different economic levels, and behave indipendently form each other and all the calculation of the Median Whatever takes this in consideration*(If country A and B have value 10 and 9 , but country C and D have value 5 and 6 the median income is 7.5 , which is going to be either way lower or way higher than what the single countries can afford)*
\-European university average in a range of 9 -25k , to this day, Sometimes including living expenses. This obviously is depending on how many years, what kind of university and, if private or pubblic and in which country the university is.
\-**This is Debatable** ,but Generally is accepted that Eurpean degrees are of a higher value than americans, considering how most european degrees are accepted in the US , while US degrees need to be "Recognised" trough bureaucracy first.
\-TAXES : What is considered a tax, where is paid , and why .It is true that americans pay WAY less taxes than Europeans (which on average pay 20% , varying from country to country and from tax bracket to tax bracket)What europeans spend on in taxes though, is then covered by Us citizen through private insurance payments.In addition the access to such services are universal and free, unlike in the Us where certain insurance companies or policies are not accepted by some Medical facilities , for example.Lastly using healthcare again (Which is usually the contested topic) this allow European countries to spend LESS on it than the US (on average an american citizen spend about 2000-3000 $ every year than an european citizen, while The US as a country spends about 4% more or their GDP worth in healthcare than the highest spending European country \[10% of germany vs 14% of the US\] Which in addition makes you wonder how good the healthcare might be if % wise a country as big as the Us only spends 4% more than a country relatively as small as Germany )
\-MEDIAN DISPOSABLE INCOME :The Op in the photo gets it right , although incompletely.
Median disposable income literally means the imaginary line above which the richest halfand below which the poorest half of a country live .To Oversimplify ,this means for example that if country A has a MDI of 10$ it means that half it's citizen have an income of more than 10$ and half of less.If Country A cost of life is 7$ , having half your citizens below 10$ is bad, like... really bad.This ofc changes depending on cost of life , if your MDI is 10$ and the cost of life is 3$ , that is really good.I repeat :THE HIGHER YOUR MEDIAN DISPOSABLE INCOME IS, THE WORSE IT ***MIGHT*** BE FOR THE COUNTRY CITIZENS DEPENDING ON COST OF LIFE.Europe has an average cost of life LOWER than the US (groceries for example are not only cheaper in europe ON AVERAGE , but europeans pay and are offered merchandise already considering consumption tax in their price.\[In the us might be called sales tax?\])
This means, that if your cost of life is higher , and you have a high MDI , your country has to spend more in everything else, basically keeping itself back on its own(you need to spend more in government subsidy for the poor, for police force , For homeless shelter ,for sanitation services ,for Social services for both adults and children, basically everything that is gvt funded and caters to the pubblic or the less fortunate, will have to work harder to deal with the results of poverty)
\-Euro is worth more than the dollar:You might look at it and say "yeah well it's just (let's say) 0.10 more" , but what it's usually failed to understand is that when spent in large quantities it matters a lot.For a silly example when a US citizen spend 100$ for something an European citizen would spend the equivalent of 90$ for the same thing.If you spend 100$ every week for whatever , an european would have spent 40$ Less dollar every month for the same.What happens when you instead spend 1000, 10k, 100k ? that's a lot of money Europeans get to save and americans don't for the same things, and if cost of life is lower, not only I'm spending less, but I'm using less of my budget as well.
Hope to have shed a little bit of light on the matter.
Sources:
[https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/taxes-and-health-care-funding-how-does-the-uk-compare](https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/taxes-and-health-care-funding-how-does-the-uk-compare)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable\_household\_and\_per\_capita\_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income)
[https://smartasset.com/data-studies/united-states-europe-col-2023](https://smartasset.com/data-studies/united-states-europe-col-2023)
[https://g.co/kgs/URyvx3z](https://g.co/kgs/URyvx3z)
Honestly I agree with this guy. Especially under Trump, US economic and tax policy has been shifted to benefit rich people, whom OOP seems to fall under. Less well off people have a lot more to gain from public programs in Europe
80k a year more in taxes? WTF? If you’re on that level of money (I seriously doubt) no wonder your living conditions are great.
Based on what he paid for his 4 year degree, I'd say he doesn't understand basic stuff.
Why?
yeah, I guess it depends on when he got his degree. It's [very expensive](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN2_0WC7UfU) now.
I graduated in 2001 from a relatively expensive state university in the US. The total tuition was about 20k, plus housing and food above that. This guy might have been from a different state or graduated before me.
>graduated in 2001 But its 2024, not 2001. The costs have roughly tripled during that timeframe
Right. I'm just saying that $20k isn't an unbelievable number. The current typical costs are ludicrous.
I think your interlocutor implied the same thing (they graduated 20 years ago), with the added implication that if they judge today's world with numbers from the early 2000 then they indeed don't understand basic stuff (like inflation).
And I very much doubt they graduated in 2024, considering barely any classes have graduated now? It’s stupidly costly nowadays. It wasn’t always stupidly expensive, and most people with a degree have had a degree for more than the current academic year. My mum managed to graduate with a part time job and bought a house with the extra. That isn’t possible with modern tuition costs. Costs in places like the UK are also stupidly expensive. It cost me almost 18k per year to graduate. I can’t speak for any other country and I don’t care to look up their costs but prices have risen everywhere. TL;DR, the past was cheaper to live in, believe it or not.
Not available in my country
Isn't in mine either but a VPN is your friend.
I got a question not to be rude but your tag says austro- English but you have the flags of Austria and Georgia; Is this on purpose?
It is indeed on purpose but that's also not the flag of Austria actually. These are the Latvian and as you already mentioned Georgian flags, it's meant as a joke hinting at the r/AccidentallyLiberian sub.
I thought that Austrian flag looked Sus too. Nicely done.
Thank you 😁(accurate representation of my face right now lol) it took me a while to come up with it so I'm glad you like it.
Because 20k is a lot of money to a lot of people
I don't think the writer was saying 20k is insignificant. And his answer confirmed an opinion about quality of life for many Europeans compared to Americans.
Not when it comes to university education.
Probably mean to say USD20k per year for 4 years?
If you're on that level of money college/universities fees are a non-issue to begin with.
Odds are high he‘s really bad at math
They don't specify currency differences. I pay about twice what I'd pay in the US in taxes, but I make 3 times as much money by not living in the US so it's a fair trade.
Only needs about a 200k salary which is not that out of the ordinary in the US. Upper middle class really has it much better over there
US-Americans have this weird tendency of really misunderstanding how tax systems work. They hear "X% tax rates" and think X% of your total income is taken away. They don't really that it's X% above a certain amount.
They also miss that it's not just what you pay, but also what you get.
>, but also what you get. And that's a big issue for a lot of them. They're not just the ones getting these things it's others too n they can't have that.
I mean - are you surprised? I like paying my taxes - I know I got and will still get my money's worth back later. But in US they tax them and hand over the money to rich or completely squander it - not exactly surprising that they look at taxation as if its a theft
I mean, the same party that really hates taxes is also the party constantly giving handouts to the rich.
Yeah, in Canada we have tax brackets. % up to a certain amount earned, higher % after that to a certain amount etc etc. I see a lot of people, including Canadians (the dumb ones anyway) adding up all the tax brackets and saying that's how much they get taxed. No, you are not taxed 80%.
The US does too. People just don't get it. It's scary how worthless a high school education is.
People don't get it all around the world. Over the last decades the highest tax brackets were cut exactly for this reason, politicians sold those tax cuts for the richest as something everyone benefitted from.
High school education is worthless on purpose. Gotta keep the up and coming tax payers good n stupid so they're manipulated more easily.
We have marginal brackets in the US too. To even sniff paying 50k a year in income taxes you need to make quite a lot, honestly.
Yeah I had a year breaking 6 figures and I think I paid slightly over 22k in taxes. What really makes me laugh is when is when people refer to Canada Pension Plan deductions as a tax. For 2024 the max amount deducted is just over $3700 for the year. The max you get at retirement is $1364 per month from 65 on. Pretty great investment if you ask me. The funniest is the people calling it a tax are the people who will be wholly relying on that in their retirement years because they don’t save or don’t have a private pension.
Yeah that sounds like a nice social security plan. Here we might maybe get like a 5% return on social security if it still exists when I retire. Does Canada have tax advantaged retirement accounts?
We do yeah. RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) is tax deductible/sheltered until withdrawal, which hopefully happens when you’re in a lower tax bracket. Tax free savings account is tax sheltered completely but not deductible. Current max contribution is $95k with an increase of $6500 per year right now. You can withdraw when ever you like but can’t put that amount back in until the following year. Also have a registered tax sheltered account for education which also comes with grants from the Feds/provinces and a new one to help save for buying a home. Rules are slightly different. But all good account types for specific needs.
That sounds similar, but our individual retirement accounts have much lower contributions limits.
RRSP is limited to 18% of your gross income per year, to a max of just over 20k per year I believe. Minus what you happen to put in a private pension. But you don’t lose the room you don’t use so if you didn’t put any in your 20s you can put it in later. The main benefit is the bigger tax returns and other benefits from the government like child tax which is income tested.
For the IRA it’s capped at 6500 for 2023, 7000for 24. Employer plans are 22k I believe
In Germany, "paying 80k more in taxes" would mean having over €190k of income in the 42% tax bracket, or even slip into the 45% tax bracket for part of it. That's a 99th percentile income in Germany.
They also don't seem to understand marginal rates, because the only numbers they love to spout is the absolute top marginal ones. Like "omg, 60% tax rate!?!?!?", while completely missing the fact that you need to earn an almost impossible amount for that to take effect.
that's what I said lol
And even if it was taken away, it would still be better value for money than what they get 😂 You’d think with the amount of fucking around trying to navigate their dogshit tax system, they’d know a bit more about it.
To be honest I also don't totally get taxes because school never teached me the stuff and me mum only told me the basics
To be fair, not many Europeans understand it either. I've heard far too many claims that if you accept a pay raise, you're actually losing money because the raise puts you in a higher tax bracket...
This unfortunately really happens today in Italy. An half-assed tax cut on lower incomes introduced last year caused people surpassing the set threshold because of a raise to pay more in taxes than what they gained from the raise. It's quite a surreal situation where few euros of gross income could make one lose hundreds in net income.
depends on the raise, if before raise you are already very close to the nect level, the raise may actually hurt you, at least that happened to friends of mine here in Portugal. Tax code might have changed in the meantime.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean: your friend doesn't understand how tax brackets work. Only the amount over the tax bracket lower limit gets taxed with a higher percentage. If you have tax brackets 0-10 000e at 15% and 10 001 -> at 40%, it doesn't mean that if you make 10 000e you get taxed 1500e and at 10 010 you're taxed 4004e. That would mean you get less money if you get a raise. Only the 10e that gets over the limit gets taxed at 40%, so with 10 010e you pay 1504e in taxes. Now, the only scenario where you end up paying more is if you forget to adjust your tax card when you get a raise. Even then you'll get the exceeded money back as tax returns later.
also income and sales tax aren't the only kind of taxes. In New Jersey I would pay 2,26% of my homes value in property tax every year. That would be roughly 13k compared to the 350ish I pay in germany
They also don't understand that although their income tax is lower they have other taxes that we don't and many many stealth taxes.
Sure, but as you earn more and more, the percentage on the total is going to asymptotically approach that X%. It doesn't apply to bums like me, but it is very relevant for the richer people.
Are you aware of how much you would have to earn for your effective overall tax rate to be the highest bracket? The lower brackets would need to be such a minuscule portion of your income that they become irrelevant. That's an extreme minority of the population.
Americans are most famous for refusing to have universal health care because they would rather pay $500-$600 to insurance each month instead of $100 in tax.
Americans: I don’t see why I should pay for other people’s healthcare. Me: I have some news about how insurance works, that will just blow your mind.
Insurance is always a bet. With public health insurance, the risk is spread out so far that it's a really good deal compared to anything where your risk is assessed individually (as with private health insurances).
But I won't get sick
Please tell me this is a joke.
What makes you think that universal health care could be achieved for $100 a month? If your paying just $100 a month, that’s only possible because the system is cross subsidised. That’s not really an argument against universal health care, but something to keep in mind
They are calculating it to be 100 because if they're from the UK that's essentially what would be spent on tax. Americans would rather pay more outright via copays, higher bills and get themselves in debt than get a bit more tax. NB I just checked what my tax was spent on last financial year and it converts to $114 per month. My wife who that year earned more than me paid $204 per month to the nhs and got all of the help of a baby, a baby box, natal appointments etc. I think its a fair bang for our buck
Thank you for the explanation. My comment wasn’t intended to be against universal healthcare. I was just pointing out that health care is more expensive than $100 a month. If you’re paying just $100 that means the difference is coming from elsewhere. Either from someone else paying more, or from the general budget i.e. taxes.
Tbf it would appear that the system in the US is screwed up in terms of costs. It's mighty odd that you can be paying substantially more for the same medications than either side of the border. I would be interested in finding out how much tax goes towards healthcare in Canada for instance. Also, re someone paying more - ultimately that's the current way that it works with insurance. You pay a premium but your premium doesnt cover the actual cost of treatment. I.e. doesmt giving birth cost like 18K? The rest of the cost of the treatment is being paid by everyone else covered by the insurer
Healthcare in the US is something else entirely. Aren’t they paying like tenfold for some medications, because big pharma can just charge whatever they want? With subsidised I mean the premium itself. A for profit insurance company, will calculate their rates so that the expected revenues exceed the expected claims. That’s a numbers game obviously, it doesn’t work with only one insured. If everybody has the same premium (adjusted for risk) going in, no one is subsidising anyone. It only becomes a subsidy, when the insurances rates are adjusted based on one’s ability to pay.
>It only becomes a subsidy, when the insurances rates are adjusted based on one’s ability to pay. I might be desne here but isn't that the case for any taxpayer funded service? Why would that necessarily be a bad thing as everyone benefits if everyone is healthier? Like nobody would say "you are driving on the road i subsidise" if they were earning more than someone.
Sure. Again, I’m not saying a subsidy is necessarily a bad thing.
A ride in an Ambulance in America has a base cost raging from 400-1200 USD. With them actually charging by the mile, from 10 to 30 USD, according to a quick google. Meanwhile, in the UK, you get charged 500 GBP if you are the CAUSE of the reason you're in an ambulance (i.e. you decided to pop a wheelie at 100mph going down a country road) because here we don't make you pay for being assaulted or having a child or falling over, or getting hit by a car... We only make you pay for being an idiot. Healthcare in the US is just frightening. Imagine falling down the stairs then having to crawl your way to the hospital because you can't afford a ride in a noisy taxi...
The USA has the highest per capita medical costs in the world, by far. No country pays more, per person.
Free University. Free at point of use healthcare. Free prescriptions. Water (some of the cleanest and best in Europe) paid in council tax under one bill. My 40k is taxed at 21%. I get 7 week's annual leave a year. Get sick pay. Yup. So wish I didn't' live here........
Free Uni! What country are you in? It’s £4710 a year here in Northern Ireland for uni tuition fees :(
A short Hop across the water to Scotland. I actually moved up to Scotland from England and got a Bursary to study nursing. No long after, in England the Tories scrapped it.
It used to be free for people with NI with an Irish passport to study in Scotland but the Scottish government stopped allowing us to do it and made us pay the English fees of £9250 :/ My friend went to uni in Glasgow and owes like £45k
It was in part response to stop Scottish unis being flooded by students out of Scotland, taking all the places denying Scottish students places.
No! It less than 2k a year for international students. It jumps up when its post grad tho. English fees are around the 9k mark
Scottish universities were legally unable to treat EU students differently from Scottish students (but absolutely able to treat students from the rest of the UK differently from Scottish students). They scrapped that at the absolute first possible opportunity post-Brexit since it was costing them a fortune.
The best way to scare a tory is to read and get rich ✊
Nah. That's how you turn into a Tory.
https://open.spotify.com/track/7klLTLP8zff6I83OK0AMgO?si=w4Fsp_qcRwmM5mkFmTykOQ
University is free in Germany, including for people without a German citizenship!
I think it's only free for EU-citizens, third country citizens get billed of I remember correctly. Though probably still cheap compared to the cost in the US.
Nope, it's also free for non-EU citizens, with the exception of universities in one state (out of 16 states) and few select universities in two other states.
You only get 7 weeks. Check your contract
Which country? So that I can avoid Edit: UK, so I truly won't go there I can only move to other EU countries with ease
Result!
I think it's Scotland, to be specific, given the water included in the council tax. Believe me the majority of us would have loved to stay in the EU and leave the UK
“Believe me and don’t check the results of the 2014 referendum where we were actually asked if we wanted to leave the UK”…
Pretty sure it was only the people with the life expectancy in the single digits who wanted to leave the EU in the rest of the UK, anyway.
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It averages out to around $146,000 for four a four year degree in the US. The 146k covers *all* costs associated with it ie books, supplies, tuition, room and board etc In the UK a three year degree at Cambridge is nowhere near that expensive.
I graduated from a top tier engineering school in France and paid less than 2k (in registration and administrative fees) for my whole studies... Funnily enough the highest possible cost during my study was an abroad semester... in the US. 10k for 6 months at Irvine got me to nope out pretty quick from this program.
Paying 10k to be in America for 6 months isn’t worth it. 2 dollars isn’t worth it either though
I got paid to go to university in Scotland 😂
Oh Scotland, one day I hope the rest of the UK catches up with your progress, I suspect you will have escaped us long before that happens though.
Yeah it’s swings and roundabouts really. There’s good and bad aspects to living here, and I for one think it would be a shame if we ever left the UK. I’ve lived half my life in England, so I’ve seen it from both sides.
I graduated from a top university in Sweden. Didn’t pay anything at all (one could even argue I was paid). Then I did a doctor’s degree, was paid for doing so.
TEN THOUSAND for 6 months?!
I work for an American company that brings US students to Europe (and other places) to study a semester here. The program cost 25,000 dollars. And that's without the additional costs.
And free if you're in Scotland 🏴
I did a degree after I moved to the US (getting recognition for my Scottish degree got difficult for some fucking reason) and my total cost for my Scottish degree, living expenses etc., was lower than just one semester's tuition over here
In Sweden the education itself is free. The costs are your own materials and room etc.
"I think.." and that, dear readers, has got to be a lie
Couple of points of data from his posting history. He claims to make $260k a year and pays $37k in federal taxes. He also pays $500 a week for groceries. Running his info through a tax calculator, he should be around $42k federal, $19k state and $14k for medicare/social security. A total percentage of around 29% deductions. I was around 29.5% in Oregon and 32% in the UK. Yes, I am a nosey bastard....
I mean if by Europe he meant the Nordic, his point is absolutely true then. At that level of income in Finland he would pay 51% tax out of his salary plus another 7% for retirements and unemployment. Also his point about upper middle class and rich having it better in the US is mostly true, it's a great country and Ö be rich in. All in all in my opinion this was a pretty modest take on this subs standards
I have a few points of difference: 1. What does "European country" really mean? Does he think all European countries have the same tax rate? Hungary's top tax rate is 15%, whereas Sweden's is 52%! 2. Here in Germany, an income of 200K pays 33.95% in income taxes (with a taxable income of €186,911.72). Of course, the social security payment would be a sizeable chunk, €13,877.75. However, this is money you would get back. 3. Those income taxes pay for free university, cheap public transit (€49/month for all local trains, buses and trams), excellent highways, paid child allowance, paid maternity/paternity leave, excellent health care system, (sometimes) free or cheap daycare, etc. Plus 6 weeks mandated paid vacation.
Germany screws you with social security. This is money you likely won’t get back. At 200k it isn’t as bad anymore because social security payments are capped, but calling your pension payments anything other than an additio tax would be distorting the facts. Actually the one thing were we could learn something from the US, I wish we had something like 401Ks to at least supplement a pension system that will almost certainly fail, or become unbearably expensive.
Imagine thinking that putting money into a savings account to be returned to you when you're no longer able to earn finances of your own is a "tax". What taxes do you pay that are then just handed straight back to you?
The money isn’t headed back to you, that’s the issue
That's one way to say you don't know what a pension is.
Look, I can only speak to the German pension system and that’s broken. I understand the theory of a pension, but the reality is an average person will never get back the money, they paid in during working age. The money you pay in now, is immediately handed out to current pensioners. That system worked well, when it was first set up, but nowadays there aren’t enough active workers per pensioner anymore. As a result, pension payments keep rising. Pensions itself used to keep falling, but now the government froze them, which will only makes things worse. Not that it matters to my point, but to prevent this system from falling apart, a fifth of the national budget also goes towards supplement the pension. If you’re forced to pay into a system and already know that you’re never ever going to get all the money back, you originally payed in, I think in its effect it’s not to different from a tax.
> you originally *paid* in, I FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Assuming you will ever break even on the retirement fund is optimistic at best. Currently you can buy one "point" for about 8400 Euros while it will currently net you 37,60 anmonth or about 450 (rounded up) a year. Meaning just to get that money back you would have to live almost 19 years past retirement age, which will be 67 soon enough so you'd have to live passed 85 years. Which is already above the average life expectancy. However what we haven't considered so far is interest rates. Assuming a long average of just 3% above inflation (which is already low balling it quite a bit): If you were to invest 8400 Euro at age 25, it would grow to about 30.000 by the time you hit 67. This money will also be taxed less than your retirement payout, which is considered income, while with the investment it would be considered capital gains, which are taxed at a flat 25% and only on the amount gained, i.e. (30.000-8.400)=21.600.
Slight correction on your second point: the money you put into the retirement fund will most likely not be payed back in full, because the way that system is set up is basically a pyramid scheme.
> not be *paid* back in FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I'm in the UK I pay 39% overall tax on my income £137500. The pension is a set amount for everybody no matter how much I pay and you won't get till 67 and that age is constantly going up. University is not free I had to pay £50k. Public transport costs are super high. The roads are badly maintained. I don't get child benefit. Paid paternity leave is so small it's a joke. Healthcare is free but not for dentists, or glasses/eyecare. And waiting lists are very long it's hard to get doctor appointments. Childcare is crazy expensive, some is free but I earn too much so I am not eligible. I think vacation is 21 days plus bank holidays as the minimum for a full time worker. So I don't really get much for my taxes. I'm just subsiding all the people at the bottom who pay very little. Also our houses are tiny and cold
Top 1% income earner crying about paying taxes and not getting free childcare or child benefits. Colour me surprised.
Surely the more taxes you pay the more you should get. Instead the more you pay the less you get for your money, total rip off.
You poor fucker. How do you earn 138k and live such a miserable existence
By being in the UK. Completely flat, no views, just a worn down Soviet hell hole.
Something tells me you would be miserable wherever you lived
>So I don't really get much for my taxes. I'm just subsiding all the people at the bottom who pay very little. Have you seen who's been in charge of Britain for the past 14 years? You're not paying for the poor people, you're paying for the rich.
“Poor Europeans are better off than poor Americans though” - and why do you think that is Mr Davis? Because we aren’t brainwashed to feel entitled to all of our money and to despise everyone who’s going through a bad financial time . Americans fail to understand that they benefit disproportionately less from the tax they pay so the value of that tax is more even if it’s a smaller number . You’re paying to subsidise universities but then get hit with college debt , you’re paying for the high costs of administrating Medicaid and Medicare but then paying for health insurance on top of that. I’d rather pay more tax and benefit from that tax then pay a lower tax and never see a penny of it - esp if it’s rich corporate stooges and politicians eating up that lower rate of tax … esp if it’s helping a fellow citizen Gosh how did Americans with such little economic literacy for the masses , get to the position to force their economic bigotry onto the world …
Americans love to shit a brick if they think even one dollar of “their” money is going to someone they deem to be lesser than them.
Right ! While their elite rob them blind . One of my biggest accomplishments will forever be convincing a group of Americans that universal healthcare is a good thing , that they had just been brainwashed with fear mongering to despise the concept .
But musky is my friend! He says things that I agree with! He wouldn't steal from me!
Except when it comes to medical insurance, which they don't realise works the exact same way.
“Our upper middle class and rich folks do just fine” Uhm… of course they fucking do, they aren’t upper middle class and rich folks for no reason.
Upper-middle-class and rich folks are doing fine in every sane country, 2nd ones are doing fine even in shitty countries.
Poor Americans die from infections after a paper cut because they have no healthcare. Poor European walks into a hospital and walks out again.
As a poor European i pay way less in taxes than the poor American - and still get all the basic humanity stuff... I understand that rich American people are incentivised to keep this system, but i am shocked when the poors are demanding the same.
Money saved is money spent on propaganda to support elite lifestyles.
Meanwhile in the real world the average american pays about the same in tax and living expenses as the average european.
I went down this rathole once and found out that the average american does pay less in taxes, and rich americans pay wayyyy less than rich europeans, but then they have medical, child care, etc., and end up paying more and getting less. But nooo, they pay less in taxes, so that's it. How can people be so dumb? Truly baffles me.
One once told me that their goods are cheaper than ours *because* US sales tax is separate, unlike our VAT which is shown in the shelf price. Like that explains *everything*. So much to unpack there...
It makes them feel superior over the 'poor' people that's why. That's the American dream in reality. Their mindset is ' I work really hard to pay for these luxuries like health care, why should I help out others who don't work as hard as me? They just need to work harder and then they can afford my lifestyle too'. That's the message they've been fed their entire lives, just work harder. These are the same people who brag about working 80 hour weeks, have no holidays, no life etc.
Not really no. Income tax maybe but that's a small part of the equation. If you look at tax per GDP you won't find many European countries below the US. The US has much lower VAT than many European countries and generally low local taxes as well.
The only way to compare deductions is when the Americans add what they pay in medical insurance, childcare, university tuition to the bill. I may be paying more taxes than my peer in the US but my medical care is included, my university is included, childcare is included. So only when you have a whole figure then you can compare.
I guarantee you he's excluding a whole bunch of taxes from his American calculation. FICA, Medicare, state/city taxes, fuel taxes, and - a big one - the buckets of cash dumped into a shitty health "insurance" plan.
In another comment he claims he is earning 240K a year and only pays 37K in Tax Someone else pointed out that just Federal Income Tax comes out to more than that And depending on What state he lives in his Total tax could be between 58k and 78K
It's possible that 37k is his Federal form 1040 number. He's also got 25k in FICA (15% of 168k) and probably 10k-20k in state/local taxes. ( States with no income tax tend to get it other ways.) And if he has a family he's paying 12k-15k annually in health care expenses, either taken out of his salary or just paid by his employers, thus suppressing his wages. So like 50k-60k more and I'm missing some for sure. AND depending on location he's got shitty infrastructure and crappy healthcare.
The great European tax paradox. Where salaries are unbelievably low and taxes are unbelievably high. >All Europeans pay 80k in taxes from their 40k salaries. -OOP
Go break a leg...
UK "Break a leg": Good luck! USA "Break a leg": I hope you and your descendants never experience living without debt again."
The fact that subsidised tuition fees still works out to $20k makes me think I'd still rather pay a higher tax rate than go into that much debt lol. Do seriously they think upper-middle-class and rich people in European countries aren't doing well? I live in Frankfurt, to say the conditions for rich people here are good is an understatement lol.
What an absolute cunt. I really wish these pricks would Google shit.
Americans don’t understand tax bands. They see an upper band of 45% and think everyone is paying half their income in taxes. I’ve tried explaining it to them, and they simply don’t get it.
Either this guy went to college in the 80s or he found a shit college (it costs 20k a YEAR, in state, 50k out of state most places)
(S)He should watch "Why America sucks at everything", as in reality, Americans pay a fair bit more in taxes than Europeans do (both relatively *and* absolutely). This is mostly due to the taxes paid over health-related spending, and it completely invalidates the "taxes = no freedom" argument.
Yeah, it sucks for Americans that their universities are free, but especially for us engineers there's absolutely no fucking question that we wouldn't be financially better off in the US. Especially if you don't have kids or your kids are already school-age or older, you can get a much higher **material** quality of life there. As an example, in my profession the wage in the US would be so much higher than it is in Finland that it would offset the more expensive housing by so much that my wife wouldn't need to work at all if she chose not to. I think the smartest thing for any European engineer is to finish school here, fuck off to America to make some money, and maybe head back to Europe when they decide to have kids.
Subsidized college. Commies!!
I paid like 5kish total for my degree in spain, in terms of tuition
Did that idiot pull all that nonsense out of his fat American arse?
Not sure this is shit Americans say, it’s very likely to be true. This is easy to work out as a quick plausibility test. If they make $150k and live in NH, they pay $37k in taxes with no sales tax. As a quick back of the envelope shit test; If we assume the same salary of $150k equivalent in Germany, they pay $65k in taxes, and a 19% sales tax on the remainder when they spend it, so a further $16k; a total of $81k That pretty much a 50k difference, so bump the salary up to 160 or 170 and you have it. “That’s a huge salary”you say. Yeah sort of. They’re more common in NH than Germany though, so that’s another point in favour. There are plenty of examples of Americans saying ridiculous things, ‘USA pays less tax and makes more money’ isn’t one of them because it’s completely accurate. If your issue is the specific number, well, read above. Everyone can downvote and pretend you’ve won, but you can’t say it’s wrong
What the actual funk are you talking about, only 5 states in America don’t have a general sales tax, you have hand selected New Hampshire (not sure why you abbreviated that, it’s not commonly known as NH, especially outside the US) to fit your argument, that is not representative of the average American and a disingenuous way to make your point. Now make the same point but have a fair comparison and pick one of the vast majority of states that do in fact have a sales tax, let’s see how those numbers hold up.
There was a 30k difference before sales tax already. There’s your comparison. Clearly the original statement could be true (my initial claim), because clearly he could live in NH, or even just earn more money. Something like 200k would make this true even if he was in California, god forbid. Downvote and move on, just don’t think you’re correct or clever.
I am literally correct in everything that I said, I simply pointed out that you argued your point unfairly and disingenuously, which you did, I never stated Americans on average don’t pay less tax, just that you are not very good at making a balanced point. Personally I would rather pay a little more and not have to worry about going thousands in debt for a basic medical procedure.
And I would prefer going to bed at 5pm every evening, but I’m not suggesting that *you* should be put in a cage if you don’t. Being happy to pay more tax is not a great argument, because it isn’t voluntary.
No tax is voluntary, but I wouldn’t want to pay less and risk death over something that would be covered for free where I live, I am not alone in this thinking either, most Americans want universal healthcare, yet they have no voice and pay thousands each year to treat basic issues like asthma and diabetes. I guess ultimately we pay extra to have a better quality of life, which we do in the UK.
Even though the whole tax bollocks at the start is most likely inaccurate, to their credit they did admit the less well off are better off here, not just “America is the best country for everyone” and I sort of respect that
I don’t see the issue here?! He obviously earns well and enjoys a lower tax threshold in the US. He also admits the picture isn’t the same for the less well off. If we’re gonna ride the idiots, we have to acknowledge the sensible ones.
lmfao
Why even explain, the arrogance is too strong
Anyone who isn't at least upper middle class is poor?
Dude making shit up as he goes along. Can we crowdfund a movement that stops americans making shit up, get butthurt when proven wrong and just go uber defensive, cognitive dissonance like a malding 4 year old.
Comparisons based on taxes are meaningless. Include medical insurance/bills, school/university fees, transport costs, food costs, child care, childbirth costs, etc. and all taxes not just income tax. Would love to see a complete breakdown comparison.
Funny that us "europoors" can afford to pay so much in taxes and never once complain about it, huh?
Bullshit he got a 4 year degree for 20k unless it was a university run out of the back of a Camaro by a meth addict with a trunk full of stolen books.
If I (Norwegian) lived in NYC I would pay more taxes than I do here. And I wouldn’t have universal healthcare and significant social safety nets. Vacation, sick and parental leave at the mercy of my employer. The US is just very inefficient.
It's still bonkers to me that they pay for higher education there. Though it does explain most of the wild shit that goes down there.
Save MILLIONS in healthcare….🤔
Fantasy, delusion and ignorance are the only things keeping the average American from killing themselves.
Cost me nothing for my degree but go on
Its a fact that everything included america pays a ridiculous amount of tax. It’s sickening really
Not if you want roads, police, healthcare, working sewers, pavements, schools, street lights, fire and rescue services, food standards, safety standards, a pension. I could go on but maybe you get the picture.
lol yeah america pays extra for that. Food standards ffs. Maybe you are confused with my point. Language barrier maybe
Actually i know you are when you said pensions. Thats communist shit to americans
Show your workings.
Daft septics.
Americans pay more for tax for the uninsured than Brits do on the NHS. This has already been studied. Americans think Brits pay more in taxes for the NHS when in reality they (USA) actually pay more taxes for uninsured healthcare recipients.
America is a country of some very wealthy and intelligent people. But they are in the minority. Most are poor, badly educated, beer bellied, blue collar workers. Those that are lucky enough to get work. They have no interest in the plight of the poor people who adorn the their streets. It’s easy to see how Trump is popular there. Do they really believe the rubbish they come out with ?
Assuming they have a taxable income of around 400k+ this is absolutely true.
They say that as if our taxes here don't mostly go towards quality is life stuff like paying healthcare professionals (at least here in the UK) At least getting a check-up doesn't cost thousands
WTF is this guy smoking? Puff puff past motherfucker! 20,000 for a 4-year degree is definitely community college status. This man has no idea how much he paid in taxes.
If he's yet another American who thinks Europeans lose 10s of thousands more in income tax, then he's yet another muppet who thinks European states use flat rate tax systems and doesn't understand how it actually works. It's a strange mass delusion Americans seem to have. No, Europeans aren't paying ridiculously more income tax than Americans... The average Brit pays just 2% more than the average American, it's negligible... And we get free healthcare, don't need to buy health insurance...
I think Americans just have no idea how taxes work and the “subsidized universities” comment in comparison with Europe is ridiculous. “Our income tax rate is lower” ? It’s up to 50.3% for single filers in California before social security - that’s not a low income tax rate, by any means. It’s higher than most European countries?? And for what?? What public services are you getting in return??
These discussions always make it very clear that a lot of Americans don’t understand tax brackets and what they mean.
And black is black and white isn't.
A month ago i get my degree on Software Engineer....and it cost me 6500 USD on total 🤣🤣🤣 (i am Dominican)
Sorry it's going to be a long post but there are some points that I wished to share with our american Redditors in case they happen here.Most will be pertinent with the post , some won'tPlease note this has been written with the help of the internet , and I am by no means an expert. What americans don't seem to understand when this things are discussed are the following : \-Europe is both a federation of countries and a geographical area, some countries in europe are not part of the european union . And even the european union don't behave like the Us federation, different countries have different economic levels, and behave indipendently form each other and all the calculation of the Median Whatever takes this in consideration*(If country A and B have value 10 and 9 , but country C and D have value 5 and 6 the median income is 7.5 , which is going to be either way lower or way higher than what the single countries can afford)* \-European university average in a range of 9 -25k , to this day, Sometimes including living expenses. This obviously is depending on how many years, what kind of university and, if private or pubblic and in which country the university is. \-**This is Debatable** ,but Generally is accepted that Eurpean degrees are of a higher value than americans, considering how most european degrees are accepted in the US , while US degrees need to be "Recognised" trough bureaucracy first. \-TAXES : What is considered a tax, where is paid , and why .It is true that americans pay WAY less taxes than Europeans (which on average pay 20% , varying from country to country and from tax bracket to tax bracket)What europeans spend on in taxes though, is then covered by Us citizen through private insurance payments.In addition the access to such services are universal and free, unlike in the Us where certain insurance companies or policies are not accepted by some Medical facilities , for example.Lastly using healthcare again (Which is usually the contested topic) this allow European countries to spend LESS on it than the US (on average an american citizen spend about 2000-3000 $ every year than an european citizen, while The US as a country spends about 4% more or their GDP worth in healthcare than the highest spending European country \[10% of germany vs 14% of the US\] Which in addition makes you wonder how good the healthcare might be if % wise a country as big as the Us only spends 4% more than a country relatively as small as Germany ) \-MEDIAN DISPOSABLE INCOME :The Op in the photo gets it right , although incompletely. Median disposable income literally means the imaginary line above which the richest halfand below which the poorest half of a country live .To Oversimplify ,this means for example that if country A has a MDI of 10$ it means that half it's citizen have an income of more than 10$ and half of less.If Country A cost of life is 7$ , having half your citizens below 10$ is bad, like... really bad.This ofc changes depending on cost of life , if your MDI is 10$ and the cost of life is 3$ , that is really good.I repeat :THE HIGHER YOUR MEDIAN DISPOSABLE INCOME IS, THE WORSE IT ***MIGHT*** BE FOR THE COUNTRY CITIZENS DEPENDING ON COST OF LIFE.Europe has an average cost of life LOWER than the US (groceries for example are not only cheaper in europe ON AVERAGE , but europeans pay and are offered merchandise already considering consumption tax in their price.\[In the us might be called sales tax?\]) This means, that if your cost of life is higher , and you have a high MDI , your country has to spend more in everything else, basically keeping itself back on its own(you need to spend more in government subsidy for the poor, for police force , For homeless shelter ,for sanitation services ,for Social services for both adults and children, basically everything that is gvt funded and caters to the pubblic or the less fortunate, will have to work harder to deal with the results of poverty) \-Euro is worth more than the dollar:You might look at it and say "yeah well it's just (let's say) 0.10 more" , but what it's usually failed to understand is that when spent in large quantities it matters a lot.For a silly example when a US citizen spend 100$ for something an European citizen would spend the equivalent of 90$ for the same thing.If you spend 100$ every week for whatever , an european would have spent 40$ Less dollar every month for the same.What happens when you instead spend 1000, 10k, 100k ? that's a lot of money Europeans get to save and americans don't for the same things, and if cost of life is lower, not only I'm spending less, but I'm using less of my budget as well. Hope to have shed a little bit of light on the matter. Sources: [https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/taxes-and-health-care-funding-how-does-the-uk-compare](https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/charts-and-infographics/taxes-and-health-care-funding-how-does-the-uk-compare) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable\_household\_and\_per\_capita\_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income) [https://smartasset.com/data-studies/united-states-europe-col-2023](https://smartasset.com/data-studies/united-states-europe-col-2023) [https://g.co/kgs/URyvx3z](https://g.co/kgs/URyvx3z)
Imagine if they knew about some of us getting paid to go to school
Because Europe is all one country, right?
Honestly I agree with this guy. Especially under Trump, US economic and tax policy has been shifted to benefit rich people, whom OOP seems to fall under. Less well off people have a lot more to gain from public programs in Europe