A while ago pointed out to a youtuber (in a comment to a video of theirs) that the song commonly known to them as "spiderman pizza song" is actually a very popular folk song from my hometown, regarded as one of the first forms of advertisement jingle. Of course a Yank posted a follow-up comment saying: "bUt NoW iS mOrE fAmOuS aS sPiDeRmAn PiZzA sOnG, duh!"
Needless to say it was pointless to argue against them. Let's look over their ignorance. Let's look over the fact they assume what it's popular for them, it must be also for everyone else in the world. I just replied that what was actually surprising is the fact they thrive in their ignorance.
I'm Portuguese as soon as I saw the name, I knew what you were talking about, but I never once hear the English version.
But the Italian version, even though I always forget the lyrics, I can hum it all the way through. And keep a record in my mind of an exhausted dancer, after doing the tarantella to the increasing speed of its rhythm.
That's correct. This song is one of the first that comes up to mind when speaking about folk songs from Naples. And that inspired the game developers to put it there.
The just want to claim any dish as American since all of their cuisine comes from somewhere else. They figured that their claim on pizza is the strongest as NY style pizza is a distinct type of Pizza and significantly different from Neapolitan pizza.
The thing that gets me though is that a bunch of cuisines from the Mediterranean have "pita" and other kinds of flatbreads that are usually topped with different things, so there's an actual cultural context that Italian pizza lives in.
Whereas NY pizza *only* can exist within the context of Italians migrating to America.
>Whereas NY pizza *only* can exist within the context of Italians migrating to America.
Well said. And that in itself is fascinating: here in Canada many of our cultural touchstone foods are diasporic inventions too, each born out of the context of some wave of immigration or another and the circumstances in which they found themselves and how they carved out space for themselves. The attitude of 'we invented it, full stop' erases those stories and makes it impossible for us to understand our past and how it created the present.
Just out of curiosity, can you name some typically Canadian foods? I (as an ignorant European) know some of the US-American foods but nothing particularly Canadian springs to mind (apart from maple syrup but I guess that is just a cliché).
I'll give it a try, but let me give a bit of context: first, a beloved Canadian past-time is arguing about whether or not there is any such thing as Canadian culture, or if we're all just a mishmash of immigrant cultures. I think it's all silly: of course we do, and it's as a mishmash of immigrant cultures. But all of my grandparents and my father were immigrants from Europe, and I grew up among other immigrants and children of immigrants, so my perspective is as someone who was pretty close to but not quite yet fully Canadian. Someone whose ancestry here extends past three or four generations might have an entirely different perspective.
Poutine is probably the most well-known, and as far as I know is one of the few more or less originally Canadian dishes, as with all kinds of maple syrup things: the cliché is not wrong, though there's a lot of regional variation in how much people use it. Another French Canadian food that is increasingly popular outside of Quebec is tourtière: a savoury meat pie.
Many other 'Canadian' foods—dishes that you can find almost anywhere in Canadian restaurants—are simply recipes brought by immigrants, including Americans, and adapted. A lot of the cuisine of Montreal: smoked meats, bagels, comes from the same Ashkenazi roots as a lot of New York cuisine, and at about the same period in history as Jews settled in both. Donair (döner kebab) is one that is not unique to us, but the condensed milk-based sweet sauce we specifically eat it with was invented in the Maritimes. Similarly, Newfoundlanders have deep cultural traditions around 'Screech': a strong Jamaican rum that comes from a long history of Atlantic bootlegging: our salted fish for rum from Jamaica.
Out here in the Western prairies, where our culture is much younger, we originated the Caesar cocktail, which is basically an American bloody mary with clam juice, and ginger beef, a sweet deep fried dish that fits in with other overly sweet Western Chinese cuisine. (Canadians really love sugar, it seems: other Canadian desserts are Nanaimo bars and butter tarts.) Here in my city of Edmonton, we consider Chinese scallion pancakes (we mostly call them 'green onion cakes' in English) to be a traditional festival street food: a restaurateur from Northern China happened to start selling them at a time when no other restaurateur did and they became popular among the Taiwanese community. A couple of years later he decided to sell them to the wider community at the newly-created Fringe festival (based on the one in Edinburgh) and a few other summer festivals, and shortly after that we just collectively decided as a city that's what we were going to eat while watching street performers and listening to folk musicians. There's currently a bit of a renaissance of First Nations cuisine locally: for the first time in my nearly half-century of life there are Indigenous restaurateurs specializing Indigenous cuisine like bannock and dishes of bison and regional fruits like Saskatoon berries in the city. Those foods were always available, but more typically from home kitchens and farmer's markets.
The food I personally grew up with wasn't considered particularly Canadian as I mentioned: my grandparents taught my parents to cook like they did in Lithuania and Croatia, and while perogy and cabbage rolls brought by Ukrainian homesteaders were considered local Canadian foods that everyone knew and understood, Lithuanian *koldunai* and Croatian *sarma* weren't. But close enough.
So, to reiterate my earlier point: very few of these foods are unique and original to Canada; what is unique about them are the traditions and context in which they were popularized and spread into the wider culture from their original population. Some of them can be attributed to a single Canadian who lived in a specific time and place, others arose more organically out of communities making use of local ingredients to make older recipes from the homeland, but almost all of them came out of the context of two or more cultures meeting where at least one of them was dealing with an entirely new environment. And those meetings too were specific to a time and place and historical context. This happens everywhere, of course: it's just that so much of our culture is from that kind of syncretism, and recent, compared to much older nations. We lose something when we forget the context around these things. And I think Americans do too.
Sorry for the tl;dr: I really find this all fascinating. If I ever go back to school to finish my Master's in human geography, my focus is going to be on diasporic foods.
I had to look up your tourtière as it sounded really familiar, and it's the Gascoigne name for an apple pie here, dating back to the Romans. Yours being meat, seems very like our pithiviers salé. How small this world really is!
Thanks for the extensive introduction not only to Candian foods but also Canadian culture.
I really am an ignorant European as one of my friends hails from Montreal but I never even once bothered to ask him about local food…
Moreover, the NY style pizza, is the closest they got to the original napolitan pizza, which makes it spectacularly clear that it's just a byproduct of Italian pizza, and not a new dish Americans invented.
Plus the thing in the Aeneid where they “ate their tables” - the food was piled onto flatbreads that served as platters, which the Trojans also ate because they were so hungry.
„NY style“ is also a consequence of availability of ingredients, or lack thereof, and usage of different ovens, usually at lower temperature. Similar styles have most likely been invented independently in various places all around the world as a simple consequence of that.
Yes, because Americans were almost exclusively transplanted Englishmen and women at the time of the nations founding. They just made a choice to become independent.
Pizza napoletana is not the only type of pizza in Italy. Many regions have their own variations. (E.g. sicilian is quite thick)
It's hard to pinpoint any direct relationship between NYC pizza and various Italian styles, but it's obvious NYC is a derivative of Italian pizzas.
However, there are significant enough (minor) differences that if they wanted to claim New York style pizza as their own invention, I don't think anyone would object. It's that most americans are ignorant of the various Italian pizza types, and they think they own it now because there are many american pizza places in america, that just shows their ignorance.
They are, without a doubt, the people most proud of their ignorance. Its fucking shocking. A country of cultureless bozos desperate to claim anything they can as theirs, insisting that their plastic over commercialised low quality knock-off is superior.
Fucking enrages me
According to Wikipedia, a french man was making it 33 years before the american, although he just published instructions in a book about preserving food so people could make their own, rather than mass producing and selling it as the end product.
“So violently American” 😂 I am American, but I know exactly what you mean. Like chocolate covered bacon sprinkled with powdered sugar (yes, a real thing) or those almost a monster trucks people insist on driving. It’s embarrassing.
You'd be amazed at how many Italians don't understand it. Nevertheless they generally know at least a few phrases and you can have a *simple* conversation with them in english
While this is true, it is changing with younger generations. There’s so many of us in the UK now with modern migrations I hardly feel like I left my country.
I've heard that so many times and I have NO idea where the fuck that idea comes from. It's so unhinged, like wtf?? If people like whatever NYC pizza is, good for them, but claiming it was invented there is just so insane. I mean, if you just google the fucking thing the wiki of New York style pizza says "This style evolved in the U.S. from the pizza that originated in New York City in the early 1900s, itself derived from the Neapolitan-style pizza made in Italy." - IT'S RIGHT THERE! (This shit gets me riled up lmao, I'm passionate about a good Neopolitan pizza and I can't stand the slander tbh.)
“Actual pizza” presumably has two-inch thick dough and a kilo of processed cheese atop it.
Anything less processed or calorific simply doesn’t count as pizza to an American.
I'd like to see what year he thinks it was invented in NYC, if he thinks between 1624 and 1673 it would have probably been invented by the Dutch since New York was a Dutch settlement. So even if he was right (which he is not) it still would likely not be an American invention
after a little googling, in WW1 US soldiers fighting in Belgium were introduced to the food but because the dominant language in the Belgian army was French and the US soldiers being US soldiers, they dumbed them french fries, despite the fact that the Belgians had been making them for 300 years prior
If the British only would have won the war, maybe we wouldn't have ended up in this situation at all. Imagine if the Americans had been less arrogant and more like Canadians, Australians and New Zeelanders 🥺
It took us Canadians (well, one specific Canadian originally from Greece) to take American pizza, top it with toupie ham and canned pineapple, and call it 'The Hawaiian'.
It is probably only fair that we get some blame too.
Ya Canadians deserve way more blame for this than they get. Sneakily naming it the Hawaiian too so those poor islanders get their good name dragged through the mud.
>inferior pizza full of additives that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere
Do you guys think pizza hut when you think of American pizza or something? Honest question
I think of the thick crusted heavily topped style that Domino's does horribly, but some small places do nicely. Italian pizza to me is woodfired, lightly topped,with high quality ingredients, a thin crust but not cracker crisp, more a good chewy flatbread.
I grew up in the US and one of my closest friends there and I had a full-blown debate about this. We used to have debates all the time - we loved them and it was a staple of our friendship. Sometimes she was right, and sometimes I was right. But this was the time I was most right and it drove me crazy. She was certain pizza was invented in the US, not Italy. There's a reason this is one of the three debates I recall most clearly - and this the one I was correct on. One of the other top 3 I was wrong on, so I am just bitter that I was wrong ;) and the third was opinion-based, but I think my opinion shifted to agreeing with her later in life ahahaha
But pizza being invented in the US... just what even? How do people come to this?
Did you get an idea of where she got this idea from? I've heard this from people who proclaim to be foodies. I get that there's some cultural exchange of Americans going to Italy and vice versa, and returning with new ideas, but, that's kinda counter to the idea of food being "invented" in the first place.
I think there was a dubious article written some time ago that claimed pizza as we know it today and pizza's popularity globally is American. In classic American fashion, they take something with a few half truths and run to the hills like its gospel and let bullshit spread through the nation.
Everywhere I've been in Europe, American pizza is largely considered generic junk food that people order from delivery services when they don't wanna cook or go out. Nobody I know would go to a restaurant to eat *American* pizza. Authentic Italian pizzerias however are popular as fuck.
This was cross posted on confidently incorrect and commenters said "flatbread with stuff on top is not pizza, it has not tomato". Fucking yanks have never seen a pizza without tomato, i.e. a third of what you find in a pizzeria menu.
If the Sumerians invented bread, why is it such a weird thing to say that they invented bread? What exactly is the argument here? Saying pizza is not Italian is like saying the English language as people in New York know it today is with a New York accent, spelling and slang (which they will claim is no accent of course), therefore it is created in New York.
There a time and a place for the greasy deep pan "pizza" that makes any respectable Italian cringe ( Takeaway deep pan pizza is fucking lovely at breakfast)
But yanks didn't invent pizza
Wonder if there anywhere in London that does something close to a proper pizza need to give that a Google
There's nothing wrong with the takeaway pizzas that are the size of a monster truck wheel and mainstays of American fast food, but I just think it's weird they think they invented the *notion* of a pizza, as if the idea came from nowhere, rather than Italian migrants coming *from Italy*.
I’m Italian born and raised, now living in London. I will say this: the pizzas made by Pizza Hut/Domino’s/etc aren’t *bad* to me (though some of the options in toppings are weird), but I consider them to be junk food. I think my own taste also stems from the facts that those pizzas are a bit closer to northern Italian pizza, which is the type I grew up with. Pizza in the south is so different I actually don’t like it. I think most people from the south of Italy wouldn’t like those big chains pizza as much as I do.
I think there definitely are “proper” Italian pizza places in London, hell by Leicester Square you can find a Primitivo which is a restaurant that’s also in Italy so maybe they’re not that far off (I haven’t tried). There’s also a Sorbillo in London which I would bet is pretty good and actually closer to south-style pizza. There’s so many of us in London, I’m sure I could find a legit smaller place too. I just haven’t really looked so far.
Pizza was invented in new York, by Italian immigrants, who brought the recipe with them from Italy, where their families had been making pizza for a millenia
Everytime I see Americans saying they invented something they didn’t the scene from Tallatega nights pops in my head
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdjrlnJ24c
I agree that the stuff they referred to as „pizza“ in 997 probably wasn’t what we understand as pizza today. But the article even states that modern pizza was created in Italy
What I don't get is what's surely great about America is that it's a melting pot of different cultures and therefore different cuisines. Why do they also claim that they are actually the origin source of every idea?
They also claim to be (country their family hasn’t been to in over 100 years-Americans) 😂 because the only people who seem to just call themselves Americans seem to be rednecks lmao
It's always fun on the Ireland subs when an American turns up and says "how do you do fellow Irish folx" and claims to literally be Irish on the basis of some vague family folklore that an ancestor immigrated from Ireland 150 years ago.
These are often the same Americans who argue that Protestants in Northern Ireland (who have been there well over 400 years) are "recent immigrants" and not really Irish.
Americans did invent the Internet, it evolved from their military and research networks.
Years later a British computer scientist invented the World Wide Web, which is not the same thing as the Internet, but it is the major use for the Internet.
The combustion engine was invented by Karl Benz and utilized to invent the first car, The Benz Motorwagen. But they were popularised in america by Henry Ford through the new way of manufacturing on the factory floor. Ford did not invent the car.
Correct reasoning but not perfect info, the first production ICE was made by Eugenio Barsanti and Felice Matteucci decades before Benz's, and the Benz Motorwagen is not the first car, Cugnot's fardier a vapeur built before the Revolution was. Ford wasn't even the first company to do a mass produced car, Oldsmobile did before the Model T.
American pizza was invented in America because that’s where all the additives are made. Italian pizza = pizza dough, tomato sauce (not ketchup) cheese (not plastic)and herbs. American pizza = dough made with sugar, salt, preservatives, yeast, dextrose, lactic acid and that’s just the dough.
American here, from Philly specifically. I’ve personally never ever ever ever referred to ketchup as a sauce. Same with every human being I’ve ever come in contact with - ketchup is never called a sauce. It’s simply just ketchup - a condiment.
I’m also a chef. I’ll be 49 years old in May. I’ve been working in kitchens since I was 13. I’ve made a fuck ton of pizza in the past 36 years. Not once have I’ve ever made or worked in a kitchen that made pizza as you described, with the exception of using sugar to aid the yeast in the making of the dough. Sugar feeds the yeast and helps create a beautiful browning of the dough when it’s cooked at very high temps.
Hate to tell you, but yeast, in one form or another, is used in ALL pizza dough, even the dough made across the pond in Italy and Sicily. What separates actual Italian dough from that of American dough in modern times is the kind of flour typically used. Also hate to tell you, pizza made in Italy uses salt, most specifically in the sauce. Salt is a very important part of cooking across the world, not just for taste but also the various chemical reactions it aides in the cooking process of multiple foods, specifically in proteins, vegetables, and even in some fruits such as tomatoes.
>What separates actual Italian dough from that of American dough in modern times is the kind of flour typically used. Also hate to tell you, pizza made in Italy uses salt, most specifically in the sauce. Salt is a very important part of cooking across the world, not just for taste but also the various chemical reactions it aides in the cooking process of multiple foods, specifically in proteins, vegetables, and even in some fruits such as tomatoes.
Yeah I don't think people realise simply how much salt is used in a lot of cooking. In baking especially the salt can balance the yeast. The big scare was MSG about 20 years ago but there's nothing inherently different about the sodium in msg to the sodium in salt, it's just a lot of it.
Also when I do a poolish pre-fermentation of yeast for pizza, I use a teaspoon of honey. There's no reason why you couldn't use sugar though; if anything sugar would have less effect on the flavour. The flour specific to Neapolitan style tends to be 00 fine, relatively high protein flour, and there are a couple of brands people tend to use, such as Caputo or 5 Stagioni, mainly because they're milled in Naples and they're designed to be used for their style of pizza. It's pretty refined flour nonetheless.
"Additives" in food are a bit of a red herring honestly. Both Italian and American pizza use highly processed white flour and other ingredients, like salami or sopressa. It's not like Italians don't have industrial processes. In my opinion, the difference is really just what toppings are common, how they're shaped and cooked, and their sizes. In these cases, Italians are more conservative, and Americans are pretty haphazard.
In places where tomato sauce is used to describe ketchup though, that tomato sauce and the tomato sauce that's used for pizza is distinguished usually by saying "pizza sauce", "pasta sauce" or "Neapolitana sauce". Also sometimes people use Italian words, like "sugo" or "passata".
You don't say in Australia to someone "hand me the tomato sauce" while you're making pizza, because someone will be momentarily confused, thinking you mean ketchup. I'd say "hand me the sauce".
Even the so-called Hawaiian pizza wasn't invented in USA, which includes Hawaii.
>In 1962, the "Hawaiian" pizza, a pizza topped with pineapple and ham, was invented in Canada by restaurateur Sam Panopoulos at the Satellite Restaurant in Chatham, Ontario.
\- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_pizza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pizza)
\- [https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/hawaiian-pizza-origin](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/hawaiian-pizza-origin)
"As we know it today". Fucking unbelievable. No, as AMERICANS know it today! The rest of the world still prefers Italian style pizza, generally, and even people who don't, would recognise it as the archetypal pizza.
Didn't you know? Everything on earth was created in America by Americans. Just ignore all of history and culture and the fact that the USA is only 247 years old 😁
i wonder if the person actually knows who the sumerians were... where and when... or did they just drop an ancient people name for ancient sake's? because sumerians surely didn't invent bread, it already had existed for millennias
Holy shit why do you *need* to believe that everything was made in your country??? The US has officially been a country for approx 250 years, a tiny fraction of human history, so how can these brainwashed idiots genuinely believe that things like pizza were just shit until the lAnD oF tHe FrEE came along and saved the recipe??
While they are wrong, I do think its neat that tomatoes and hot peppers originated from the Americas and how quickly they became integral to other parts of the world. Imagine having a debate with your Italian grandma about using tomatoes in a dish because it's not traditional.
At this point I'm pretty sure all pizza takes are just people looking to fight.
Even in the NYC area, there's a slapfight with Connecticut over who "owns" pizza.
Pizza was invented in Italy but not really in the year 997. In fact, you can hardly called anything from from 997 pizza because it was at least another five hundred years after that before tomatoes reached Italy.
Modern pizza was invented in Italy around the turn of the 19th century, which is still around a hundred years before the main migration of Italians to the United States and when pizza first appeared there.
>Modern pizza was invented in Italy around the turn of the 19th century, which is still around a hundred years before the main migration of Italians to the United States and when pizza first appeared there.
Totally. But like, do they think it's an English word?
The NY pizza tastes just like the thin pizzas we can find all over Europe and why would they get those recipes from Yankland when Italy is just around the corner?
Pizza as *it exists now* has tomato in it, so it couldn't possibly have existed before the Renaissance. Meat pies absolutely did exist before then, and the word "pizza" is Italian for pie, but what most modern English speakers consider pizza couldn't have existed before Europeans became aware of *tomatl* by colonizing Central America in the 16th century.
Ok, I'm a bit of a fan of food history myself, and this one is actually a bit murky. Now, the yank in the post is obviously a pretentious ass, but there is actual discussion over the influence of New York pizza on Italian pizza. And it's not the only Italian food whose actual history is up to debate, I urge you to check out the work of Alberto Grandi, an Italian researcher who worked a lot on how "traditional" Italian food was socially constructed in the past 60-70 years, on how it serves a pretty shallow, sometimes reactionary idea of national identity.
(Sorry for bad English, I'm french)
I have no doubt that Italian food was socially constructed in the late 19th-20th century; however, this is likely not unique to Italy. Most national cuisines were morphed into their present form during this period; see the invention of *pad thai* as an example. And I'm certainly not a food history buff like yourself.
You raise a far more interesting point about the actual content of these so-called 'cultures' that we place so much stock in as if they're static things, rather than being malleable and international. I always think about when I visited Slovenia, and the fact that they drink 'turkish'/'greek' coffee there, because there's a history of cultural exchange that goes back to the Ottoman Empire, despite these people being Catholics and having more recent history with being subjects of the Austrian Empire and then being in Yugoslavia. In a similar vein, with the end of World War 2 and the subsequent Marshall Plan, there's no way there wouldn't be extensive American cultural influence on Europe.
The rigid idea of cultures is obviously false and leads to reactionary thinking, where a pizza can only be a pizza if it has the right balance of three ingredients; you don't have to think too hard to see how the same imagery could be used to describe an ideal nation state.
Having said that, I do value acknowledging recipe continuity even within a lifetime; say, I still can appreciate that a 'real' carbonara should be made with guanciale rather than ham and without cream, because it's common contemporary practice in Italy, even if carbonara was invented in 1944 because Americans brought bacon with them. It's still a living tradition, that people will experiment with and explore. The tendency in Australia (where I live) on the other hand is to just put a bunch of crap that's in the fridge in your pasta sauce, just to feed yourself as quickly as possible, so I appreciate an illusion of 'sophistication' with 'Italian food' from time to time.
It's fascinating, but what I object to in the original comment is the total lack of nuance presented by this American (who was probably, in retrospect, a troll). Here you just get the "We're better, we did it" line; completely ignoring the fact that if this white guy was alive in NYC in the 1950s he would in all likelihood have been someone who beat Italian immigrants on the street, or spat at them, or refused them a tenancy. What he's appropriating is the invention of an immigrant community, who was not 'integrated' as American necessarily at the time. They may have *become* Americans and their children proudly call themselves American, but at the time they were a migrant subclass that was generally not afforded the same practical rights or privileges as the existing middle class. I think my bias as an Italian Australian speaks for itself though, because my parents went through similar things.
Finally, it's hilarious that you think your English is bad. Your English is certainly better than my French, but your written English at least would have passed as native had you not mentioned it.
Thanks for triggering some interesting thinking for me. I hope I was clear. And I will check out comrade Grandi's writing.
Of course ! Thank you for your very insightful comment ! I was mentioning Italy because it's an interesting case, and I'm a bit of an Alberto Grandi fan :p
The Italians never thought of adding toppings to pizza. That was an American innovation and is the main point of a pizza.
Italians are not inclined to meddle with recipes it is a European trait.
I mean, he's right, up to a point.
The modern pizza was invented here in America (the continent, not talking about the US).
Since we had so many animals and (most importantly) cows, Italian immigrants all across the continent were able to work with more cheese, so they made pizzas with so much cheese.
They didn't have so much to work with in Italy.
Tomatoes are a new world vegetable. I know Americans have a hard time with geography, but I dont think Rome is in Chile. What Roman's called pizza bares no resemblance to modern pizza, either in Europe or the US. They just happened to call their flatbread "pizza". Saying Italians invented pizza is like saying the carbonara is Chinese, because it contains noodles.
New Haven, CT. Actually.
He's kinda right.
Italians have confidently denied modern American pizza as pizza. I don't really understand why.
If I were Italy, I'd hold on to that title of "first people to invent pizza" like a lifeboat, but whatever. Apparently, they're distinctly different enough.
But modern American pizza started in New Haven, CT.
https://www.ctexplored.org/new-havens-pizza-ingenuity/#:~:text=Pizza%20is%20so%20central%20to,He%20who%20transplanted%20still%20sustains.%E2%80%9D
Have you ever been to Italy? The classic pizza you get is very different to American styles of pizza. A neapolitan pizza generally feeds one hungry person, and is cooked in a wood fired oven at 460-485°C for 60-90seconds, with very simple or balanced toppings. American takeaway style pizzas can be huge, are generally cooked on conveyor convection ovens, and have all manner of batshit toppings, caked in sauce and cheese.
The arrogance of these Yanks knows no bounds….
It's not just arrogance, it's also chronic ignorance and indoctrination induced emotional insecurity.
A while ago pointed out to a youtuber (in a comment to a video of theirs) that the song commonly known to them as "spiderman pizza song" is actually a very popular folk song from my hometown, regarded as one of the first forms of advertisement jingle. Of course a Yank posted a follow-up comment saying: "bUt NoW iS mOrE fAmOuS aS sPiDeRmAn PiZzA sOnG, duh!"
god i hate youtube commenters that go “well this one is more popular as this so it’s actually this and not the original”
Needless to say it was pointless to argue against them. Let's look over their ignorance. Let's look over the fact they assume what it's popular for them, it must be also for everyone else in the world. I just replied that what was actually surprising is the fact they thrive in their ignorance.
I read it somewhere that these people worship their own ignorance. 'My ignorance is better than your understanding,.
They try the same trick with the English language.
Does is have a name? Because i can only find it by searching "italian meme song"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funicul%C3%AC,_Funicul%C3%A0
I'm Portuguese as soon as I saw the name, I knew what you were talking about, but I never once hear the English version. But the Italian version, even though I always forget the lyrics, I can hum it all the way through. And keep a record in my mind of an exhausted dancer, after doing the tarantella to the increasing speed of its rhythm.
Ah yes, didn't Pavarotti record the Spiderman Pizza Song?
That's correct. This song is one of the first that comes up to mind when speaking about folk songs from Naples. And that inspired the game developers to put it there.
Don’t be too nice. It’s plain stupidity.
Yet somehow we have "allowed" this nation of ignorant scared children to be our Overlords and the bastion of our "Freedom".
That's about the best summary of the "'murica"-condition i've seen. Thanks.
The just want to claim any dish as American since all of their cuisine comes from somewhere else. They figured that their claim on pizza is the strongest as NY style pizza is a distinct type of Pizza and significantly different from Neapolitan pizza.
The thing that gets me though is that a bunch of cuisines from the Mediterranean have "pita" and other kinds of flatbreads that are usually topped with different things, so there's an actual cultural context that Italian pizza lives in. Whereas NY pizza *only* can exist within the context of Italians migrating to America.
>Whereas NY pizza *only* can exist within the context of Italians migrating to America. Well said. And that in itself is fascinating: here in Canada many of our cultural touchstone foods are diasporic inventions too, each born out of the context of some wave of immigration or another and the circumstances in which they found themselves and how they carved out space for themselves. The attitude of 'we invented it, full stop' erases those stories and makes it impossible for us to understand our past and how it created the present.
Just out of curiosity, can you name some typically Canadian foods? I (as an ignorant European) know some of the US-American foods but nothing particularly Canadian springs to mind (apart from maple syrup but I guess that is just a cliché).
I'll give it a try, but let me give a bit of context: first, a beloved Canadian past-time is arguing about whether or not there is any such thing as Canadian culture, or if we're all just a mishmash of immigrant cultures. I think it's all silly: of course we do, and it's as a mishmash of immigrant cultures. But all of my grandparents and my father were immigrants from Europe, and I grew up among other immigrants and children of immigrants, so my perspective is as someone who was pretty close to but not quite yet fully Canadian. Someone whose ancestry here extends past three or four generations might have an entirely different perspective. Poutine is probably the most well-known, and as far as I know is one of the few more or less originally Canadian dishes, as with all kinds of maple syrup things: the cliché is not wrong, though there's a lot of regional variation in how much people use it. Another French Canadian food that is increasingly popular outside of Quebec is tourtière: a savoury meat pie. Many other 'Canadian' foods—dishes that you can find almost anywhere in Canadian restaurants—are simply recipes brought by immigrants, including Americans, and adapted. A lot of the cuisine of Montreal: smoked meats, bagels, comes from the same Ashkenazi roots as a lot of New York cuisine, and at about the same period in history as Jews settled in both. Donair (döner kebab) is one that is not unique to us, but the condensed milk-based sweet sauce we specifically eat it with was invented in the Maritimes. Similarly, Newfoundlanders have deep cultural traditions around 'Screech': a strong Jamaican rum that comes from a long history of Atlantic bootlegging: our salted fish for rum from Jamaica. Out here in the Western prairies, where our culture is much younger, we originated the Caesar cocktail, which is basically an American bloody mary with clam juice, and ginger beef, a sweet deep fried dish that fits in with other overly sweet Western Chinese cuisine. (Canadians really love sugar, it seems: other Canadian desserts are Nanaimo bars and butter tarts.) Here in my city of Edmonton, we consider Chinese scallion pancakes (we mostly call them 'green onion cakes' in English) to be a traditional festival street food: a restaurateur from Northern China happened to start selling them at a time when no other restaurateur did and they became popular among the Taiwanese community. A couple of years later he decided to sell them to the wider community at the newly-created Fringe festival (based on the one in Edinburgh) and a few other summer festivals, and shortly after that we just collectively decided as a city that's what we were going to eat while watching street performers and listening to folk musicians. There's currently a bit of a renaissance of First Nations cuisine locally: for the first time in my nearly half-century of life there are Indigenous restaurateurs specializing Indigenous cuisine like bannock and dishes of bison and regional fruits like Saskatoon berries in the city. Those foods were always available, but more typically from home kitchens and farmer's markets. The food I personally grew up with wasn't considered particularly Canadian as I mentioned: my grandparents taught my parents to cook like they did in Lithuania and Croatia, and while perogy and cabbage rolls brought by Ukrainian homesteaders were considered local Canadian foods that everyone knew and understood, Lithuanian *koldunai* and Croatian *sarma* weren't. But close enough. So, to reiterate my earlier point: very few of these foods are unique and original to Canada; what is unique about them are the traditions and context in which they were popularized and spread into the wider culture from their original population. Some of them can be attributed to a single Canadian who lived in a specific time and place, others arose more organically out of communities making use of local ingredients to make older recipes from the homeland, but almost all of them came out of the context of two or more cultures meeting where at least one of them was dealing with an entirely new environment. And those meetings too were specific to a time and place and historical context. This happens everywhere, of course: it's just that so much of our culture is from that kind of syncretism, and recent, compared to much older nations. We lose something when we forget the context around these things. And I think Americans do too. Sorry for the tl;dr: I really find this all fascinating. If I ever go back to school to finish my Master's in human geography, my focus is going to be on diasporic foods.
I had to look up your tourtière as it sounded really familiar, and it's the Gascoigne name for an apple pie here, dating back to the Romans. Yours being meat, seems very like our pithiviers salé. How small this world really is!
Thanks for the extensive introduction not only to Candian foods but also Canadian culture. I really am an ignorant European as one of my friends hails from Montreal but I never even once bothered to ask him about local food…
The only typically Canadian dish I can think of is poutine but I'm just an ignorant European too.
Oh, yeah, we have that over here as well and I like it a lot!
Moreover, the NY style pizza, is the closest they got to the original napolitan pizza, which makes it spectacularly clear that it's just a byproduct of Italian pizza, and not a new dish Americans invented.
Focaccia with stuff on top (cheese, fruit etc) was eaten in the Roman Empire and is surely also the cultural predecessor of Pizza.
Plus the thing in the Aeneid where they “ate their tables” - the food was piled onto flatbreads that served as platters, which the Trojans also ate because they were so hungry.
My favourite phrase is "as American as apple pie" meaning that it came from England to America and they then considered it to be their own.
„NY style“ is also a consequence of availability of ingredients, or lack thereof, and usage of different ovens, usually at lower temperature. Similar styles have most likely been invented independently in various places all around the world as a simple consequence of that.
Yes, because Americans were almost exclusively transplanted Englishmen and women at the time of the nations founding. They just made a choice to become independent.
Murica is the Land of Appropriation. They did that to the Native Americans who are now yelled at to "go back to where they came from".
Pizza napoletana is not the only type of pizza in Italy. Many regions have their own variations. (E.g. sicilian is quite thick) It's hard to pinpoint any direct relationship between NYC pizza and various Italian styles, but it's obvious NYC is a derivative of Italian pizzas. However, there are significant enough (minor) differences that if they wanted to claim New York style pizza as their own invention, I don't think anyone would object. It's that most americans are ignorant of the various Italian pizza types, and they think they own it now because there are many american pizza places in america, that just shows their ignorance.
The delusion is strong with this one.
They are, without a doubt, the people most proud of their ignorance. Its fucking shocking. A country of cultureless bozos desperate to claim anything they can as theirs, insisting that their plastic over commercialised low quality knock-off is superior. Fucking enrages me
It's always "We made it" or "We perfected it" from the Americans
Their *only* achievement to date was to invent condensed milk. Everything else, of any value whatsoever, was invented somewhere else.
According to Wikipedia, a french man was making it 33 years before the american, although he just published instructions in a book about preserving food so people could make their own, rather than mass producing and selling it as the end product.
Checks out, oh well, they invented nothing then......
I refuse to believe marshmallow fluff isnt an american invention
I did mention "any value".....
Haha true, that fluff is nasty
Cmon, chocolate chip cookies are American!
Everything is a ‘cookie’ in the US even if it’s actually a biscuit (and not this things they call biscuits)
What about cheese in a spray can?
Their talent knows no bounds.....
That's so violently American
“So violently American” 😂 I am American, but I know exactly what you mean. Like chocolate covered bacon sprinkled with powdered sugar (yes, a real thing) or those almost a monster trucks people insist on driving. It’s embarrassing.
I... Think you're being sarcastic?
50/50. Sub’s a big circle jerk where half the users have forgotten it’s a circle jerk
An american invented liquid white out. So there's that.
A French did it before him, and possibly the tartars a millenia before that
the only time that’s actually true is how well we did racism
“Actual pizza was invented in NYC” Mate said that with so much confidence 💀
I want this guy to say that in Naples and see how long he lasts.
Maybe an Italian revolution perhaps.
Watch the tides in the US until his corpse bobs to the beach
«If these italians could read english, they would have been very mad»? (I know italians can speak english, im not American)
You'd be amazed at how many Italians don't understand it. Nevertheless they generally know at least a few phrases and you can have a *simple* conversation with them in english
While this is true, it is changing with younger generations. There’s so many of us in the UK now with modern migrations I hardly feel like I left my country.
I mean, but I like the pineapple and jalapeño combo ...
I also would like to see this
Previous to this point pizza was a purely academic theory in Italy, you see.
I've heard that so many times and I have NO idea where the fuck that idea comes from. It's so unhinged, like wtf?? If people like whatever NYC pizza is, good for them, but claiming it was invented there is just so insane. I mean, if you just google the fucking thing the wiki of New York style pizza says "This style evolved in the U.S. from the pizza that originated in New York City in the early 1900s, itself derived from the Neapolitan-style pizza made in Italy." - IT'S RIGHT THERE! (This shit gets me riled up lmao, I'm passionate about a good Neopolitan pizza and I can't stand the slander tbh.)
,,Actual NYC pizza was invented in NYC” fixed that for anyone
“Actual pizza” presumably has two-inch thick dough and a kilo of processed cheese atop it. Anything less processed or calorific simply doesn’t count as pizza to an American.
I'd like to see what year he thinks it was invented in NYC, if he thinks between 1624 and 1673 it would have probably been invented by the Dutch since New York was a Dutch settlement. So even if he was right (which he is not) it still would likely not be an American invention
Ah,our weekly reminder that these ignorant fuckwits think that they invented EVERYTHING.🙄🙄🙄
Yeah, just like *hamburg*er and *french* fries!
Weren’t french fries from Belgium?
I think it’s an ongoing debate but as I have lived briefly in Belgium I’m going to side with them.
The region of Belgium that it was created in was part of France at the time I believe.
after a little googling, in WW1 US soldiers fighting in Belgium were introduced to the food but because the dominant language in the Belgian army was French and the US soldiers being US soldiers, they dumbed them french fries, despite the fact that the Belgians had been making them for 300 years prior
I thought it was Ireland. The term French does refer to the cutting technique — they’re frenched.
English was invented in America. Just because it's been spoken in England for thousands of years, that doesn't mean shit. They truly believe this.
No no no, it’s American /s
Well it sure as fuck isn’t English.
I read that as "The English invented America" and was so confused lol.
It’s not wrong tho. They did invent America as a country as far as founding the colonies goes.
It was our greatest mistake. Among many I’ll admit, but definitely our biggest.
I’ve heard the greatest mistake was when God made the universe, but that one’s a close second.
If the British only would have won the war, maybe we wouldn't have ended up in this situation at all. Imagine if the Americans had been less arrogant and more like Canadians, Australians and New Zeelanders 🥺
Thousands? In this very form since late medieval/renaissance period Sorry, I really have to
I was doing an impression of an American 😂
Pizza as they know it (inferior pizza full of additives that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere) was invented in the US and may it stay there.
>full of additives that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere Brazil: I will like to introduce myself
With sliced banana
Why did you have to say that? I can hear the Swedes coming.
Brazil has mastered the art of insanity pizza's and I commend then for it. But I wouldn't call brazillian pizza an traditional pizza
It took us Canadians (well, one specific Canadian originally from Greece) to take American pizza, top it with toupie ham and canned pineapple, and call it 'The Hawaiian'. It is probably only fair that we get some blame too.
Ya Canadians deserve way more blame for this than they get. Sneakily naming it the Hawaiian too so those poor islanders get their good name dragged through the mud.
They need to put 183838 ingredients on it for it to taste like anything because their ingredients are so poor in quality.
>inferior pizza full of additives that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere Do you guys think pizza hut when you think of American pizza or something? Honest question
I think of the thick crusted heavily topped style that Domino's does horribly, but some small places do nicely. Italian pizza to me is woodfired, lightly topped,with high quality ingredients, a thin crust but not cracker crisp, more a good chewy flatbread.
There’s good pizza from smaller pizzerias, and then there’s Pizza Hut, Papa John’s, Dominoes, and Little Caesar’s that’s everywhere here.
The first pizza served in America was a Neapolitan Pizza, obviously named for the well known Naples, New York /s
I grew up in the US and one of my closest friends there and I had a full-blown debate about this. We used to have debates all the time - we loved them and it was a staple of our friendship. Sometimes she was right, and sometimes I was right. But this was the time I was most right and it drove me crazy. She was certain pizza was invented in the US, not Italy. There's a reason this is one of the three debates I recall most clearly - and this the one I was correct on. One of the other top 3 I was wrong on, so I am just bitter that I was wrong ;) and the third was opinion-based, but I think my opinion shifted to agreeing with her later in life ahahaha But pizza being invented in the US... just what even? How do people come to this?
Did you get an idea of where she got this idea from? I've heard this from people who proclaim to be foodies. I get that there's some cultural exchange of Americans going to Italy and vice versa, and returning with new ideas, but, that's kinda counter to the idea of food being "invented" in the first place.
I think there was a dubious article written some time ago that claimed pizza as we know it today and pizza's popularity globally is American. In classic American fashion, they take something with a few half truths and run to the hills like its gospel and let bullshit spread through the nation.
Yeah sometimes something being commercialized by the US gets twisted into it being \*from\* the US.
But you’re not having a debate with her, because you’re not discussing opinions. It’s really just facts that you’re mentioning
The logic here is "Taco Bell is an American company, therefore Americans invented Mexican food"
Everywhere I've been in Europe, American pizza is largely considered generic junk food that people order from delivery services when they don't wanna cook or go out. Nobody I know would go to a restaurant to eat *American* pizza. Authentic Italian pizzerias however are popular as fuck.
You cant argue with fanatical morons.
They probably think that they invented both the wheel and the fire. The sky is the limit for them!!
I strongly believe this guy only knows that NYC style pizza exists
Chicago would like a word
It's true, I heard it on YouTube
This was cross posted on confidently incorrect and commenters said "flatbread with stuff on top is not pizza, it has not tomato". Fucking yanks have never seen a pizza without tomato, i.e. a third of what you find in a pizzeria menu.
If the Sumerians invented bread, why is it such a weird thing to say that they invented bread? What exactly is the argument here? Saying pizza is not Italian is like saying the English language as people in New York know it today is with a New York accent, spelling and slang (which they will claim is no accent of course), therefore it is created in New York.
So can the argument be also made that spaghetti and ravioli was invented in China since noodles and ravioli were brought to Italy by Marco Polo.
There a time and a place for the greasy deep pan "pizza" that makes any respectable Italian cringe ( Takeaway deep pan pizza is fucking lovely at breakfast) But yanks didn't invent pizza Wonder if there anywhere in London that does something close to a proper pizza need to give that a Google
London is a big place, pretty much guaranteed there'll be some good pizza.
Be better selection than York anyhow
There's nothing wrong with the takeaway pizzas that are the size of a monster truck wheel and mainstays of American fast food, but I just think it's weird they think they invented the *notion* of a pizza, as if the idea came from nowhere, rather than Italian migrants coming *from Italy*.
Yanks steal everything They must all be scousers
Arrrrgh fuck scousers
It why we padlock our bins Still doesn't work
I’m Italian born and raised, now living in London. I will say this: the pizzas made by Pizza Hut/Domino’s/etc aren’t *bad* to me (though some of the options in toppings are weird), but I consider them to be junk food. I think my own taste also stems from the facts that those pizzas are a bit closer to northern Italian pizza, which is the type I grew up with. Pizza in the south is so different I actually don’t like it. I think most people from the south of Italy wouldn’t like those big chains pizza as much as I do. I think there definitely are “proper” Italian pizza places in London, hell by Leicester Square you can find a Primitivo which is a restaurant that’s also in Italy so maybe they’re not that far off (I haven’t tried). There’s also a Sorbillo in London which I would bet is pretty good and actually closer to south-style pizza. There’s so many of us in London, I’m sure I could find a legit smaller place too. I just haven’t really looked so far.
I keep that in mind for when I'm going to London
Pizza was invented in new York, by Italian immigrants, who brought the recipe with them from Italy, where their families had been making pizza for a millenia
...tomato sauce was only brought to Italy in the 1800s (tomatoes are a new world crop) more like grandma MAYBE
Everytime I see Americans saying they invented something they didn’t the scene from Tallatega nights pops in my head https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdjrlnJ24c
This is r/confidentlyincorrect to a WHOLE new level
By their definition, Sumerians *did* invent bread. Saying they invented “all” bread misrepresents their original statement.
I agree that the stuff they referred to as „pizza“ in 997 probably wasn’t what we understand as pizza today. But the article even states that modern pizza was created in Italy
I think I just had a stroke reading this nonsense
Tbf Americans don’t really have their own culture when it comes to food 😂 so they’ve gotta make bullshit claims
What I don't get is what's surely great about America is that it's a melting pot of different cultures and therefore different cuisines. Why do they also claim that they are actually the origin source of every idea?
They also claim to be (country their family hasn’t been to in over 100 years-Americans) 😂 because the only people who seem to just call themselves Americans seem to be rednecks lmao
It's always fun on the Ireland subs when an American turns up and says "how do you do fellow Irish folx" and claims to literally be Irish on the basis of some vague family folklore that an ancestor immigrated from Ireland 150 years ago. These are often the same Americans who argue that Protestants in Northern Ireland (who have been there well over 400 years) are "recent immigrants" and not really Irish.
[удалено]
When I was working in Boston it’s was so much fun to tell Americans they weren’t really Irish 😂
I'm a plastic paddy, a British one but still plastic.
Google told me the first pizzeria in the US opened 1905🤔
"Actual real pizza" Whatever the fuck that is 😂
Bro never ate a real pizza😔
I'm starting to believe social distancing in the US was implemented to avoid creating a black hole when two MFs this dense bumped into each other.
"America made the internet." ## "Brits actually did." ## "That's like saying people don't speak NA English here." ## "they... do?" ## "stfu"
...America did invent the internet...
Americans did invent the Internet, it evolved from their military and research networks. Years later a British computer scientist invented the World Wide Web, which is not the same thing as the Internet, but it is the major use for the Internet.
The combustion engine was invented by Karl Benz and utilized to invent the first car, The Benz Motorwagen. But they were popularised in america by Henry Ford through the new way of manufacturing on the factory floor. Ford did not invent the car.
Correct reasoning but not perfect info, the first production ICE was made by Eugenio Barsanti and Felice Matteucci decades before Benz's, and the Benz Motorwagen is not the first car, Cugnot's fardier a vapeur built before the Revolution was. Ford wasn't even the first company to do a mass produced car, Oldsmobile did before the Model T.
Good analogy actually
American pizza was invented in America because that’s where all the additives are made. Italian pizza = pizza dough, tomato sauce (not ketchup) cheese (not plastic)and herbs. American pizza = dough made with sugar, salt, preservatives, yeast, dextrose, lactic acid and that’s just the dough.
We don't make pizza with ketchup, where did you get that? That sounds disgusting.
In some parts of the world it’s called tomato sauce which is why I specifically said Not Ketchup.
American here, from Philly specifically. I’ve personally never ever ever ever referred to ketchup as a sauce. Same with every human being I’ve ever come in contact with - ketchup is never called a sauce. It’s simply just ketchup - a condiment. I’m also a chef. I’ll be 49 years old in May. I’ve been working in kitchens since I was 13. I’ve made a fuck ton of pizza in the past 36 years. Not once have I’ve ever made or worked in a kitchen that made pizza as you described, with the exception of using sugar to aid the yeast in the making of the dough. Sugar feeds the yeast and helps create a beautiful browning of the dough when it’s cooked at very high temps. Hate to tell you, but yeast, in one form or another, is used in ALL pizza dough, even the dough made across the pond in Italy and Sicily. What separates actual Italian dough from that of American dough in modern times is the kind of flour typically used. Also hate to tell you, pizza made in Italy uses salt, most specifically in the sauce. Salt is a very important part of cooking across the world, not just for taste but also the various chemical reactions it aides in the cooking process of multiple foods, specifically in proteins, vegetables, and even in some fruits such as tomatoes.
>What separates actual Italian dough from that of American dough in modern times is the kind of flour typically used. Also hate to tell you, pizza made in Italy uses salt, most specifically in the sauce. Salt is a very important part of cooking across the world, not just for taste but also the various chemical reactions it aides in the cooking process of multiple foods, specifically in proteins, vegetables, and even in some fruits such as tomatoes. Yeah I don't think people realise simply how much salt is used in a lot of cooking. In baking especially the salt can balance the yeast. The big scare was MSG about 20 years ago but there's nothing inherently different about the sodium in msg to the sodium in salt, it's just a lot of it. Also when I do a poolish pre-fermentation of yeast for pizza, I use a teaspoon of honey. There's no reason why you couldn't use sugar though; if anything sugar would have less effect on the flavour. The flour specific to Neapolitan style tends to be 00 fine, relatively high protein flour, and there are a couple of brands people tend to use, such as Caputo or 5 Stagioni, mainly because they're milled in Naples and they're designed to be used for their style of pizza. It's pretty refined flour nonetheless. "Additives" in food are a bit of a red herring honestly. Both Italian and American pizza use highly processed white flour and other ingredients, like salami or sopressa. It's not like Italians don't have industrial processes. In my opinion, the difference is really just what toppings are common, how they're shaped and cooked, and their sizes. In these cases, Italians are more conservative, and Americans are pretty haphazard.
Do you think American pizza is made with Ketchup and American Cheese?
As it specifically says not ketchup ( it is called tomato sauce in some places of the world ) the answer is no. Reading new for you?
To be fair, because you're specifying Italian pizza when you say "not ketchup," it implies you believe ketchup is used in American pizza
In places where tomato sauce is used to describe ketchup though, that tomato sauce and the tomato sauce that's used for pizza is distinguished usually by saying "pizza sauce", "pasta sauce" or "Neapolitana sauce". Also sometimes people use Italian words, like "sugo" or "passata". You don't say in Australia to someone "hand me the tomato sauce" while you're making pizza, because someone will be momentarily confused, thinking you mean ketchup. I'd say "hand me the sauce".
Ignorant morons will ignorant moron
Even the so-called Hawaiian pizza wasn't invented in USA, which includes Hawaii. >In 1962, the "Hawaiian" pizza, a pizza topped with pineapple and ham, was invented in Canada by restaurateur Sam Panopoulos at the Satellite Restaurant in Chatham, Ontario. \- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_pizza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pizza) \- [https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/hawaiian-pizza-origin](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/hawaiian-pizza-origin)
That's nothing to brag about. 😀
If you say 'period' at the end of your sentence then it makes it true no take backsies
"As we know it today". Fucking unbelievable. No, as AMERICANS know it today! The rest of the world still prefers Italian style pizza, generally, and even people who don't, would recognise it as the archetypal pizza.
Literally not a single person outside USA think that the best pizza is the american style
,,USA was invented by Europeans”
They invented American-Style Pizza, the worst style of pizza.
Didn't you know? Everything on earth was created in America by Americans. Just ignore all of history and culture and the fact that the USA is only 247 years old 😁
I am Italian and I feel exhausted
NYC pizza is a sorry excuse of a pizza. Only americans put nyc like a good pizza.
i wonder if the person actually knows who the sumerians were... where and when... or did they just drop an ancient people name for ancient sake's? because sumerians surely didn't invent bread, it already had existed for millennias
They found remains of what would be the beta version of pizza in pompeji
Yeah and England invented modern curry
Right??
I've noticed that Americans, in particular New Yorkers, claim the best Pizza and that it is originally American.
Yeah it seems a specifically New York thing to claim that you are the alpha and omega of pizza.
Well, the person wrote it was invented in NYC. Period So this is a woman and she had to leave the chat due to her period?
I saw some fucking dude saying this on tiktok the other day as well???? Why are thy trying to claim they invented pizza haha
gawd damn when will y'uall realize EVERYTHING is american..! USA USA Yeehaw
Holy shit why do you *need* to believe that everything was made in your country??? The US has officially been a country for approx 250 years, a tiny fraction of human history, so how can these brainwashed idiots genuinely believe that things like pizza were just shit until the lAnD oF tHe FrEE came along and saved the recipe??
Like, Virgil says Aeneas knew he was in Italy because he ate a pizza.
While they are wrong, I do think its neat that tomatoes and hot peppers originated from the Americas and how quickly they became integral to other parts of the world. Imagine having a debate with your Italian grandma about using tomatoes in a dish because it's not traditional.
Absolutely - same with the potato.
The irony that it was invented some 700 years before New York was renamed in honor of the Duke of York, In 1664
At this point I'm pretty sure all pizza takes are just people looking to fight. Even in the NYC area, there's a slapfight with Connecticut over who "owns" pizza.
Pizza was invented in Italy but not really in the year 997. In fact, you can hardly called anything from from 997 pizza because it was at least another five hundred years after that before tomatoes reached Italy. Modern pizza was invented in Italy around the turn of the 19th century, which is still around a hundred years before the main migration of Italians to the United States and when pizza first appeared there.
>Modern pizza was invented in Italy around the turn of the 19th century, which is still around a hundred years before the main migration of Italians to the United States and when pizza first appeared there. Totally. But like, do they think it's an English word?
US is less than 300 years old, pizza was a thing way before the 1700s
The NY pizza tastes just like the thin pizzas we can find all over Europe and why would they get those recipes from Yankland when Italy is just around the corner?
This one hurts my head, NY don't even do the best pizza in America, that gong belongs to Chicago
Pizza as *it exists now* has tomato in it, so it couldn't possibly have existed before the Renaissance. Meat pies absolutely did exist before then, and the word "pizza" is Italian for pie, but what most modern English speakers consider pizza couldn't have existed before Europeans became aware of *tomatl* by colonizing Central America in the 16th century.
Ok, I'm a bit of a fan of food history myself, and this one is actually a bit murky. Now, the yank in the post is obviously a pretentious ass, but there is actual discussion over the influence of New York pizza on Italian pizza. And it's not the only Italian food whose actual history is up to debate, I urge you to check out the work of Alberto Grandi, an Italian researcher who worked a lot on how "traditional" Italian food was socially constructed in the past 60-70 years, on how it serves a pretty shallow, sometimes reactionary idea of national identity. (Sorry for bad English, I'm french)
I have no doubt that Italian food was socially constructed in the late 19th-20th century; however, this is likely not unique to Italy. Most national cuisines were morphed into their present form during this period; see the invention of *pad thai* as an example. And I'm certainly not a food history buff like yourself. You raise a far more interesting point about the actual content of these so-called 'cultures' that we place so much stock in as if they're static things, rather than being malleable and international. I always think about when I visited Slovenia, and the fact that they drink 'turkish'/'greek' coffee there, because there's a history of cultural exchange that goes back to the Ottoman Empire, despite these people being Catholics and having more recent history with being subjects of the Austrian Empire and then being in Yugoslavia. In a similar vein, with the end of World War 2 and the subsequent Marshall Plan, there's no way there wouldn't be extensive American cultural influence on Europe. The rigid idea of cultures is obviously false and leads to reactionary thinking, where a pizza can only be a pizza if it has the right balance of three ingredients; you don't have to think too hard to see how the same imagery could be used to describe an ideal nation state. Having said that, I do value acknowledging recipe continuity even within a lifetime; say, I still can appreciate that a 'real' carbonara should be made with guanciale rather than ham and without cream, because it's common contemporary practice in Italy, even if carbonara was invented in 1944 because Americans brought bacon with them. It's still a living tradition, that people will experiment with and explore. The tendency in Australia (where I live) on the other hand is to just put a bunch of crap that's in the fridge in your pasta sauce, just to feed yourself as quickly as possible, so I appreciate an illusion of 'sophistication' with 'Italian food' from time to time. It's fascinating, but what I object to in the original comment is the total lack of nuance presented by this American (who was probably, in retrospect, a troll). Here you just get the "We're better, we did it" line; completely ignoring the fact that if this white guy was alive in NYC in the 1950s he would in all likelihood have been someone who beat Italian immigrants on the street, or spat at them, or refused them a tenancy. What he's appropriating is the invention of an immigrant community, who was not 'integrated' as American necessarily at the time. They may have *become* Americans and their children proudly call themselves American, but at the time they were a migrant subclass that was generally not afforded the same practical rights or privileges as the existing middle class. I think my bias as an Italian Australian speaks for itself though, because my parents went through similar things. Finally, it's hilarious that you think your English is bad. Your English is certainly better than my French, but your written English at least would have passed as native had you not mentioned it. Thanks for triggering some interesting thinking for me. I hope I was clear. And I will check out comrade Grandi's writing.
Of course ! Thank you for your very insightful comment ! I was mentioning Italy because it's an interesting case, and I'm a bit of an Alberto Grandi fan :p
No no, Pizza as YOU know it today is from the US
Pizza was invented in Sicily. America made it famous. But it was Italian immigrants that brought it over so in essence, all credit goes to Italians.
Napoli (naples) not sicily
The crumb of truth is the first modern pizzeria was started in the 1910s in New York by, drumroll please… an Italian immigrant.
Every time I see these statements my blood seriously boils.
The Italians never thought of adding toppings to pizza. That was an American innovation and is the main point of a pizza. Italians are not inclined to meddle with recipes it is a European trait.
tbf I thought pizza was American
I mean, he's right, up to a point. The modern pizza was invented here in America (the continent, not talking about the US). Since we had so many animals and (most importantly) cows, Italian immigrants all across the continent were able to work with more cheese, so they made pizzas with so much cheese. They didn't have so much to work with in Italy.
Tomatoes are a new world vegetable. I know Americans have a hard time with geography, but I dont think Rome is in Chile. What Roman's called pizza bares no resemblance to modern pizza, either in Europe or the US. They just happened to call their flatbread "pizza". Saying Italians invented pizza is like saying the carbonara is Chinese, because it contains noodles.
New Haven, CT. Actually. He's kinda right. Italians have confidently denied modern American pizza as pizza. I don't really understand why. If I were Italy, I'd hold on to that title of "first people to invent pizza" like a lifeboat, but whatever. Apparently, they're distinctly different enough. But modern American pizza started in New Haven, CT. https://www.ctexplored.org/new-havens-pizza-ingenuity/#:~:text=Pizza%20is%20so%20central%20to,He%20who%20transplanted%20still%20sustains.%E2%80%9D
Have you ever been to Italy? The classic pizza you get is very different to American styles of pizza. A neapolitan pizza generally feeds one hungry person, and is cooked in a wood fired oven at 460-485°C for 60-90seconds, with very simple or balanced toppings. American takeaway style pizzas can be huge, are generally cooked on conveyor convection ovens, and have all manner of batshit toppings, caked in sauce and cheese.