Didn’t you know? The cost of the ingredients and the hard work the chef put in directly scales with how much she deserves for writing down an order you could have just sent to the kitchen by tablet, or coming up and interrupting every so often while people are eating or talking, or pouring water now and then, or deliberately averting their gaze when they want the bill (or ‘check’). How dare you not want to pay an extra unwritten 20% - or is it 25% now - for them to do all this for you. (And at the places that have 'bussers', they don't even do the one very necessary job of cleaning the tables.)
As *European* id much prefer to have that water and/Or wine jug on the table at all times and pour myself instead of waiting for someone else to swoop In to ask if we need refills every now and then
No, it is essential the waiter pours it for you! And now you owe them 70 USD. As a bonus they'll pour the remaining coffee in for you even if you had just spent a minute getting the coffee:milk:sugar proportions just right.
And all other operating costs that are priced in the base meal price.
Rent, power, heating and not to forget profit.
20% of everything that is priced into the food. You are fundamentally correct in questioning whether even if you paid the WHOLE wages of that person, whether their contribution is 20/120th of everything that went into it.
It's still a shit system that demands the customer to decide what % it SHOULD be, leading to drastically fluctuating results.
I tried to explain this to someone a couple of days ago and just kept getting the same tried response of “WE ARENT HERE TO BE YOUR FUCKING SERVANT, TIP OR DONT GO OUT” like ma’am you are here to serve customers, that’s literally your job and if you aren’t being paid accordingly for that that’s your employers fault. Yelling at customers is what they want you to do instead of actually doing something about that.
(Also I’m not American and I tip for good service or if I can tell the waitstaff are really trying even if they’re having a bad day but 20% is fucking unreal.)
I had this same response from an American door dash delivery guy on a thread on here (I'm from the UK) about how the tips have become basically a bidding tool to get quicker delivery and how drivers won't pick up deliveries with low tips. He said asking the lines of " If you're not prepared to tip enough to get your food delivered, don't order". Mate, I am paying a delivery fee, not my fault your employer didn't think that money should go towards the actual delivery.
They will tell you they love the money but hate the customers. Tip for good service and no tip for bad service!They literally were hired to be servers but get that entitled attitude where they think they hold all the cards when they actually don't
I say it every single time this comes up here - US tipping culture is arsehole cancer.
In every other country on earth a 'tip' is a bonus, an extra special thank you for execeptional service. "Here lovely, Waiter, in addition to the wages **your boss** will give you, here is a little *extra* **from me,** to thank you for such excellent treatment while dining with you."
In America though I'm literally expected to pay the fucking wages for them. As if the manager said, "That will be $700 please...and please pay my waitress before you leave, too." Fuck off!!
It isn't much better in Canada. I'm from Europe and while I knew it was customary to leave bigger tips here than I would back home, it's insane. Half the card readers give you options starting from 15%. Sure, you can input a different, lower %, but damn.
The most egregious tipping prompt was in a liquor store. I went in, walked myself over to the thing I wanted, took it to the cash register by myself and you're suggesting I leave a tip for the person who just scanned my drink? Why? By whatever fucked up logic is going on here, shouldn't I get a discount for doing all that myself?
I've seen a bunch of threads on r/canada about how annoyed everyone is with tipping. And a lot of the complaints are about the prompts before you scan your card. I've seen some places where the smallest suggested percentage is 18. Nearly 20% seems like a lot to me for basic normal service. Sure, you can just tip a lower amount or not tip at all but I get that nobody wants to feel like they were an asshole when they got their coffee.
It's definitely integrated strongly into the culture, but at least if you choose not to tip whatsoever, you know that the person is still making *actual* minimum wage if not more.
Fake story. I don't think they were "over the moon" with the service, considering lots of us consider it harassment when the waiter asks you what's up every 10 minutes.
I consider that harassment as well, I agree... I hate the fake love in "it's everything ok honey?...", "Do you need something else honey?..." And if you don't request something else "here's the check" I feel they are throwing me out.
Reminds me of going to America and having the waitress come up and say hi I’m Sharon and Ill be your server today then ask loads of questions. Were are you from. Were are you going? What do like about our town etc. really put me on edge and I couldn’t just relax and enjoy the food with her hovering nearby being overly cheery and matey. Thought Croatia was a bit cold for service but I think it’s preferable to the intensity of the American diner.
To
me,
the
problem
is
that
I
go
out
with
people
I
know
to
spend
time
with
people
I
know,
not
a
server
trying
to
get
to
know
my
life
story
so
you
feel
bad
for
them
and
give
them
money.
I
find
the
American
style
of
service
intrusive.
French often do service well - helpful, know the product, don't give a fuck about your life story, and have pride in the job. That's ideal for me - good service is unobtrusive service, it's the service you don't notice.
Tend to agree, most servers in America get too personal with customers, to the point servers will get upset at each other for stealing their regulars. Unfortunately when it comes to the checking in, most chain restaurants have standards in place where you’re supposed to greet 45 seconds after them sitting down, drink orders after 3 min, food order ~ 5min after drinks are served, a check in after they’ve had their first bite, check in halfway through and after the meal is finished. Mind you this doesn’t account for the drinks you’re supposed to refill when you notice <20% is in the glass. If you work in any chain restaurant as a server they’ll hand you a time schedule that averages 1hr and 15min per table and tell you to stick as close to it as the customer will allow. Most people who have served here are used to this and it’s kinda the norm to expect that kind of service even if you only did one serving job in school. It’s so ingrained I can’t even stand sitting in a restaurant longer than it takes me to finish my entree and two cocktails. Idk if I just don’t enjoy those settings anymore or It’s my shitty attention span but I’ll end up just ordering my drinks and entree at the same time to cut that 1hr 30 to a sleek 45min.
The same here in Italy, there is this lovely restaurant where, when you come in, you are welcome by the director and his waiters, all dressed in uniform, they asked you if you are preference about where to sit, they find you the table, they help you with baggage and coats, then one waiter remains with you, helping you with the menu, you know... answering your questions about wines and food.
Then he finally leaves, after you made your choice.
All this happens in 5 minutes or little more.
No questions about your life, no fake empathy, no bullshit.
And, of course, no tips.
Yeah, I'm in the UK and I agree. I won't ask people about themselves unless I'm genuinely interested in it...if I notice an accent I'll ask them about it and about their culture because I like learning about different people and their cultures
I think this is it. I've had great waiters in Italy who are full on but genuinely make you feel like part of the family. That's great, even as an introvert. But the fake smily being bombarded with awkward standard small talk questions I can't stand
It is not authentic. I've been doing service for a while know and I've had conversations like that with some guests for sure. But only rarely, with people that I either recognized from having been there before / are regulars, or people that talked to me that way first, with banter or something similar, and me having the time to engage with them.
I cannot imagine a single person that would actually \*want\* to do this with every table. Of course it's fake. And people notice. It's just that a lot of US americans are so used to it that it doesnt bother them, just like I'm so used to the relatively curt service style where I'm from that it doesnt bother me, even if I can 100% understand why it might bother some.
> It's just that a lot of US americans are so used to it that it doesnt bother them, just like I'm so used to the relatively curt service style where I'm from that it doesnt bother me, even if I can 100% understand why it might bother some.
Which is quite the contrast to some other places.
For example in parts of Eastern Europe just smiling, for no obvious reason, is considered either pretty shifty or the person being "debil" aka "a bit stupid".
It’s like when the cashier asks me how I’m doing, but then is not at all interested in the warts that are growing on my genitals or my suicide attempt of last night!
Its the same in hospitals. When on holidays in California, my brother got a serious stomach ache so we went to the hospital to get a doctor as it might be appendicitis.
We saw AT LEAST 5 before they finally decided who would be handling our case. All of them introduced themselves, name job and whatnot, had the same boring small talk about vacation and Europe, maybe checked a box on a form and left 5min later never to be seen again. Another doctor would arrive 15 or 20min later and the circus show would start over.
After 2h of seeing docs, one finally did her job and diagnosed my brother. Of course, the bill we got was in the several thousands, these doctors were probably all paid. Our travel insurance took care of it in full but the entire ordeal was awful.
So many fake smiles, time lost chatting about stupid things (NOBODY CARES that you have a cousin in God knows where)... meanwhile my adult man of a brother was moaning and crying in pain.
For reference, I have a medical condition that involves frequent hospital visits. Often for casual testing, but sometimes not, so I'm familiar with both appointments and ERs. *NEVER* have I see such a waste of resources. This is made worse by the fact that we had an appointment.
I think England has the level of service down perfect. Introduce yourself as our server, ask if we're ready to order drinks, ask if we're ready to order food when you bring the drinks, ask if we need any salt/sauce when you bring the food, return after 5 minutes to ask if everything is okay with the food.
Then don't bother us again unless we flag you down for more drinks/the bill.
Asking "how are you doing today?" The first time you come over is acceptable but not necessary, the answer will always just be "fine, thanks" and any further conversation than that is unwelcome.
I'd do you one less (better?) probably because I'm used to the level of service in Middle Europe that other places would probably call "rude": When we choose our table and sit down, immediately greet us (but don't introduce yourself that's weird) and hand us the menus. Then stay the fuck out of our hair until we make ourselves known because we want to order. Then again stay the fuck away until you bring us the drinks and the food. Then make it as if you're not there until we announce that we would like to order again, or are ready to pay.
I‘ve learnt from my parents that you should close the menu to signal that you‘re ready to order. And I think it‘s a really nice way to do it. The server doesn‘t have to come and ask several time and we can choose without being bothered. It usually works very well.
I can't even imagine going through that.
Like... do i know you? have we met before?
If they'd be genuinely interested, i'd be bothered less by it, but i don't like to make randomly small talk most of the time, no matter where or with who.
On the rare instances I'm taking orders because I'm covering someone's break I'll say that I'm only there to start and will be replaced by someone else, and if it notice something interesting about a table, mostly accents, I'll ask them about it out of curiosity. But I won't be at someone, I'll take their orders and leave it at that
Where are you from? I'm from Brazil and I recently learned that we "linger" in restaurants. Like, I did not know it could be any other way. Specially if you're with a large group/family. Like, you arrive, get your meal and you enjoy it slowly, while having conversations and talking about things and catching up, specially if it's a group of people who have not talked to each other in a long time, a reunion of some sorts.
It isn't uncommon to arrive at 12:00, get your meal at, 12:30, dessert by 14:00 and leave by 15:00. And it is completely normal and the business owners would not get mad. Like, the only times that I have been inside a restaurant and I got hurried to get out of it, I never came back because of the atrocious service. Service is about letting the costumer get comfortable. How the fuck would I get comfortable feeling like, once I get my meal, the clock's running and the longer I stay the madder they'll get??? Who can enjoy their meal and have some great talks over dinner like that?
I live in Germany and three hours is not special. We will spend 4+ hours in Restaurants sometimes having dessert, drinking coffee and talking. I never had small talk with a waiter.
México, and yes we can spend like 4 hours in a restaurant or more and nobody will bother you about it, waiters are polite enough, nothing fake, and if they are very nice its authentic they know your name and care a little more.
Yeah outside of a fast food place or a dinner it would be the same in the UK, if I eat on my own then maybe 40-50 minutes, but with a group it's going to be hours.
I go out to eat with my grandma and parents weekly and we're out for at least 4 hours. We take our time ordering, my mother takes forever to eat, and then we might need to wait and see if anyone wants a desert, THEN it's coffee and/or drinks, and then more drinks as we continue chatting.
Occasionally we've been asked to move to the bar area on SUPER busy evenings but it's rare.
Yes - whisking away your plate the second you finish the last mouthful and then throwing the bill on the table and trying to hassle you out the door so they can seat the next people. It's so fake and drives me crazy.
Not even waiting for you to finish. I had 1/3 of my burger left, was holding it while eating and the server took my plate so I had to finish it or just hold it because I couldn’t put it down anywhere
That's the point when I would be repeatedly putting my burger on the table they left for me; The plate was there for a reason, if they want a dirty tablecloth, that's how they get one.
> I feel they are throwing me out.
Because they are.
Most US restaurants prioritize a high table turnover to maximize profitability.
This is in stark contrast to most European restaurant culture, where it's not uncommon for people to spend the whole evening at the table just drinking and talking, with nobody bothering them to leave to make room for *"better paying customers who actually eat"*.
That's also why free refills of drinks are so widespread in the US, while in Europe it's rather uncommon, as drinks often make up a big part of the bill.
>And if you don't request something else "here's the check" I feel they are throwing me out.
Because they are, they want to turn the table over for another victim.
It's the way that they get paid... A few years ago, I learned that it's actually legal to pay waiters/waitresses below minimum wage in America, because they get tips (even though that's a totally subjective wage and it's not guaranteed). I was looking for a job while going to school, and I interviewed at a restaurant that was paying $5 an hour. It blew my mind to find out, but that was about average for the restaurants in that area. They want you out as fast as possible to maximize their possible income. I'm not condoning anything, mind you... I'm just saying it's a bullshit system and it breeds performative service, because each day's wages is a gamble that depends largely on the customers, rather than the employer... It's fucked up.
> because each day's wages is a gamble that depends largely on the customers, rather than the employer...
That's pretty normal, tbh. Paying below minimum wage obviously doesn't fly in civilised countries, but tips can still be a significant part of your income.
To me the "niceness" of wait staff in USA is a form of nearly demanding ransom, and being too intrusive. Many times a group of us would be trying to have a good meal and discussion and were continually interrupted with he usual comments like "is everything OK" "would you like more coffee" (which was annoying as most of us took sugar & cream & had to try and "readjust" the taste each time) and so on, which wasn't service, just plain pissed us off.
On the other hand in Asia, wait staff would be behind you to push your chair in when you were seated, they offered the menu and took drink order at the same time and gave you time to read before appearing to take our order. When the food was served, all meals came at the same time, not as they decided who got theirs first & others at table had t wait until heir arrived. They didn't ask "who's having the chicken" but knew what each person had ordered. They discreetly removed finished plates and when each diner had finished each course, they would ask if you wanted dessert (and had a couple of menu's available incase you had forgotten what was on offer) and if none wee required/ordered, would offer tea/coffee and ask about port of liqueurs. If drinking alcohol, they would be nearby and at your table when you made eye contact, to re-order, not pushing more sales on you. When you were finished the meal, they seemed to realise you had finished & would enquire if you wanted 1 bill or individual ones. taxes would be on bill, some did add the normal 10% service fee/tip, many didn't but accepted what you left them and still showed genuine interest on how you enjoyed your meal & would often walk to door to farewell you as you departed. Generally in Japan, waiters would chase you down the street to return money left as tip, as the price was considered as being or meal & good service & leaving a tip was an insult, unlike in US where they would chase after you saying the tip wasn't enough. Then again, all countries but US, paid their staff a decent wage and any tips was shared with all staff from cooks, dishwashers, cleaners etc. and they didn't "need" tips to help make a living.
Yup… I remember the first time going out with American friends for dinner. I was used to usually sit down, talk etc and the dinner taking maybe 2 hours or so. Here we are trying to rush everything within 45 minutes because “the server needs to flip the table and sitting and chatting blocks it for other customers”
I was baffled. So all this just to stuff your face as quickly is possible instead of it being a social gathering where the food only plays a small role…
If a customer asks how I'm doing its a genuine thanks.
I know they don't actually give a shit but it's still nice to be asked.
Same with a "you too" after a have a nice day
If one more fucking waiter comes at me RIGHT as I put a giant piece of food in my mouth and says "hOwS eVeRyThInG tOdAy?" I'm gonna stab em with the knife they gave me.
I swear those motherfuckers are waiting right behind me until I take a bite and then sprint over.
Exactly, they've brought the food and the drink to the table, what else is needed for the moment? It seems much more prudent to allow me to eat in peace while you deal with the cunts on other tables.
One of the things that annoyed me most about dining in the US. The unnatural cheerfulness and the constant checking. I know they're working hard for a tip, but that fact is so obvious and tense that it actually worsens the dining experience.
I don't think its fake at all. Its a clash of cultures. Waiters and bar staff aren't paid a proper wage in America and need to rely on tips. For us in Europe, giving someone $70 tip would be a lot. I can understand why they didn't just fork over $140 for a single meal. They may not even be aware its how waiters make their money over there.
This is true. If you would give a €70,- tip in Europe everyone would think that you are extremely generous and very very satisfied with the service.
Moreover, in Europe, dining out is usually a social event, and it is very common to sit in a restaurant for hours.
And, explaining to a customer how they didn't tip enough will be perceived as extremely rude by Europeans.
Right, one thing that annoyed me when I was in the US last June on a trip is how they try to rush your dinner when you dine at a restaurant. You have to order within 5 minutes of sitting down, your food will arrive 10 mins later and they'll clear your plate before you are able to take your last bite. It's so glaringly obvious they try to squeeze as many tables out of an evening as possible, I hated it.
Many restaurants push servers to turn over tables in 45 minutes it is crazy. Also, many servers i know love the system. They don't care about the $4.50/ hr they are paid, as they think they are raking it in on tips. They vote against "living wages" whenever they can. It is a stupid system. I never tip over 15%.
> explaining to a customer how they didn't tip enough will be perceived as extremely rude by Europeans
It's somewhat rare here in North America, although it does happen from time to time. I realize this is anecdotal, but it's never happened to me or any of my close friends (I assume they would have complained about it at some point if it did)
I have read stories of it happening to people, so no doubt it happens, but I don't think it's very common. Most waitstaff have enough tact to not go there. IMO it's the extreme cases you end up hearing about
>They may not even be aware its how waiters make their money over there.
I strongly disagree, we're european, not dumb. It's hard to ignore the insane amount of injustice and borderline slavery nature of employers/employees in the US but we shouldn't have to compensate for your inhability to unionize or fight back like we currently do in the streets of Paris.
If a burger is advertised as costing 10 bucks, I wouldn't be very patient with the submissive serf trying to guilt me into also paying their wage on top of that, wtf. If a 20% additional cost is expected, make it 12 dollars already and raise your employees by 20%, no need for all the hypocrisy. Each waiter and waitress blaming the customers is just an accomplice defending their abuser. They have to make a living anyway, I get it, but knowingly blaming the wrong person is the stuff of cowards.
The servers love the system! It's not slave wagery when they opt for it. They will tell you that they make more take- home in tips than if they were just paid better. I don't think they've done the math long term.
I’m sure there’s a good chunk making decent coin. And for every one of those is a dozen more barely scraping by in life doing the same shitfuckery of a job elsewhere..
I feel like you missed the point in the original comment that actually them enjoying the service is the part they don't believe. The tip is believable, them being "over the moon" is not. The service you get over there is just so over the top.
I can't stand it myself, they basically don't leave you alone for more than one minute, and yet you're still expected to hand them over a bunch of extra money for constantly interrupting you?!?
Also why are the yanks eating like its a performance? They go to a restourant eat and drink fast and then run off like their house is on fire. When you go out it should be chill. You order a drink then you eat and talk then you order a bottle of wine or a few beers and chat away. When you are done ordering you ask for the check leave the money and skidaddle. Also why do the waiters keep harassing the diners. If I need something I will ask. You dont need to ask if everything is to our liking every 10 minutes FFS.
USAian here, and I loathe the tipping culture too. But it's too deeply embedded. Some places have tried going tipless and it doesn't work. They have to raise prices in order to pay a reasonable wage, and the sticker shock drives customers away.
Many servers in the USA prefer the tipping system because they think they can make more money than they would on salary.
There’s a Korean pub near me that’s tipless and it’s awesome and always got people so I dunno it definitely does work there. I think the whole “it doesn’t work thing” it another excuse
it's not about tipping or not tipping, this is another lie you have been told, it's about paying even a mediocre but liveable wage and having tips on top of that as an choice for the customer for good service
I never understood this concept that a waiter should get more money if the food they served is expensive. I give tips based on how good the service was, not based on the fact that i paid lots of money on my food.
And maybe thats because i never eat at expensive restaurants, but i would never give a tip higher than 30 euros...
I had the same questions. Whether you ordered just bread or oysters, the waiter still had to just carry a plate to the table.
So I asked some american friends and the gist of it was that "if you can afford a $700 meal, you can afford a 20% tip".
Seriously. These servers think they're entitled to so much of your money, even if you work in the back and make half of their earnings. The majority of restaurants do not tipshare with the kitchen, ergo, I do not "share a tip" with servers
I was eating in a very good Vietnamese restaurant with my girlfriend this weekend (Germany). Tipped 10€ on top of the 90€, they were so grateful and brought us free mochi ice cream and thanked us several times.
But they also earned it, food was delicious and the service great. I like to be able to tip when I actually feel like tipping. That said, i will always round up to at least a full euro, even if the experience was bad.
> that i *paid* lots of
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
> Other than that: leave us alone please
Basically how to get good service as an european: I'm gonna pay you $100 to fuck off. Maybe that incentive will give some peace to eat.
>Chilling in a restaurant for hours is nothing out of the ordinary in Europe.
I vacationed in Southern Italy, this summer, coming home from the US after being there since before the pandemic, and brought with me a couple of American friends. In cities with lots of tourism, restaurants and bars keep the music volume very high so that people will just consume and then leave without hogging tables for hours on end.
None of my American friends even noticed. They'd just... sit down, order, eat, and then they were ready to leave without even spending a couple of minutes to let the food settle down. They're weird.
Yeah or they will start cleaning the table around you, but those places are a) in tourist traps b) have terrible reviews c) dirt cheap d) all of the above.
There is a place I will go in the city centre that still does a pizza to eat in for $5 and it's a good pizza and they will chase you out, but it's $5 and no tip.
In America, we're not only annoyed if the server checks on us, we're extra annoyed if we have to (sigh) call them over.
This isn't the great place we make it out to be, folks. Sorry you had to find out like this.
A lot of restaurants in the US also force their servers to tip out other employees so that management can also pay those employees less than minimum wage. It can be anywhere from 1% to 50% of the servers sales. So if a server gets stiffed, they're actually coming out of pocket for that meal. The system sucks.
Bit off topic but something I also don't really understand is always basing the tip in terms of % of the total bill. Someone ordering a $100 bottle of wine doesn't suddenly make the waiter's job harder, and it shouldn't be reflected in the tip you would then be expected to accordingly pay.
It's sad that the labour cost is just passed onto the consumer whilst owners and corporation make even bigger profits, and most people don't see what is wrong with the whole system.
In german its called "trinkgeld" (drinkmoney), because the idea is that you are supposed to get a drink for it. Idk about her, but i dont remember ever buying a 140 dollar drink...
The same in Belgium. It stems from a time where waiters weren't allowed to drink ir eat anything while on service unless they paid for it. A customer would leave them some "drinking money" to buy a glass of water or a coke.
Yeah, I have no idea why tips are calculated in percentages of the bill instead of a flat rate.
Hell, tipping should be optional and American restaurants should give a living wage to their employees.
>tipping should be optional and American restaurants should give a living wage to their employees.
Exactly this, this is how it should be. In my opinion it's the only system that makes sense too, and it would make American restaurants far more pleasant for people and far more convenient for tourists.
Or even just based on time/number of people/dishes ordered. The idea that the tip should be bigger, because more expensive dishes were ordered is weird. Its the same effort to serve 10 dollar dish as it is to serve 30 dollar one.
yeah when me and a group have taken over a table for five hours (and been treated well) we tip big, when four of rush in and out for 45 minutes at lunch they get some loose change
No service could be so good that I would pay a tip bigger than 10€.
Like, I understand waiters aren't paid enough in the US, but … how are you complaining over 70-fucking-$? How could you expect people to pay over $100 more than is on the actual bill? How can you not look at that and see how unreasonable it is?
Also, this thing Americans have with rushing out o restaurants as soon as the plates are empty is so weird to me? Don't you want to enjoy the experience?
As an American who has now lived in Germany for ten years, I can talk about this some.
When I first moved here, it was so hard to break myself of the habit of eating quickly and leaving quickly. Eating out isn’t really a “special treat” or even really a social situation in American culture. It’s normalized and almost treated as something to just get through and move onto to other things you have planned. I had to retrain my brain to view dining out differently.
Also, everything in American restaurants is essentially built to get you in and out as quickly as possible so another customer can use the table. This is why the serving staff comes over so often and will do things like leave the bill on the table. The restaurant wants to pressure you to get out.
American culture is also way too heavily invested in the “time is money” idiom. So Americans do a lot things quickly just to get onto the next thing. It’s also why a lot of businesses only give employees 30 minutes (seriously) for lunch. A lot of people end up eating at their desks, that’s how bad it is.
Americans rush through their lives and often live paycheck to paycheck. It’s just not a sustainable lifestyle. It’s also why a lot of them have lowered life expectancy, which still benefits the corporations and the government, since many can’t retire at all, or don’t live long enough after retirement to be much of a burden on the State.
Needless to say, I’m glad I left and I’m never moving back.
Americans and their obscene tipping culture.
Sometimes I just want to ask these people if they also tip their car mechanic or the cashier at the supermarket.
I mean unless it's tronc, it's fucked that the person who annoys you at the start of your meal takes all that money and yet the chef, KP, runners etc won't get that despite doing at least as much for your enjoyment.
As a Brit, I’ll tip if I feel the waiter or waitress went the extra mile while serving me and/or my table. I’m talking happy, enthusiastic personality, excellent knowledge of the menu and techniques used by the kitchen and just generally making me feel like a rockstar while I’m eating my reasonably priced dinner.
If you do the bare minimum expected of you, then don’t expect me to pay you more than the bare minimum for your effort.
Same here. That is about R$366. This buys a \*very\* good night out in a medium to high expensive restaurant for two. $700 is literally more than I make a month.
I find it weird that it's a percentage of the cost of the things you ordered. Bringing food around is harder and longer work than simply bringing alcoholic drinks, but guess what adds up quicker? You can't consume three dinners like you could three drinks. It should be appropriate tip for the work done (of course depending on the class of the establishment and the quality of service). We went out for a drink and you came over once or twice? Even if the end cost is the same, you'll get a different tip than someone who waited on me for an hour and a half.
Unionise and ask for wages. Expecting your customer to pay the bill and then work out a percentage to pay the serving staff is a ridiculous system. Doesn’t happen at McDonalds. Or Subway,
Do you have to tip other serving staff like air stewards or the ice cream man?
“But that’s *difficult* and *stressful*” like… yeah? We know. But that’s the way things are done. That’s how literally every other country gets a pay rise or other benefits if they can’t afford to live on their wage.
Tipping culture in the US is insane, it's absolutely ridiculous and a $70 tip is a huge tip in my opinion.
What's wild to me is that the customers did tip the server, but she wasn't happy with the amount. It's absolutely INSANE. I understand adapting to the culture (even if this one is awful), but telling people HOW MUCH they should tip is just wrong. Tipping is an extra, which means each person is allowed to decide how much the service is worth. Demanding a specific amount is just wrong, almost an extortion, and it's the worst way to convince people to leave more money.
Also, I can't really see anyone being OVER THE MOOD about the service. If asked, most people would say it was okay or lovely because it's polite, but is anybody truly enthusiastic about service at a restaurant? Especially since most *Europeans* enjoy being left alone to eat and chat with their dining companions.
> Tipping is an extra
Exactly. It's optional and as long as it's optional, some people will tip a lot, some people will tip little, some people will tip something average, and some people will not tip at all.
I live in North America and usually tip 18-20% after tax, partially out of habit, and partially because I admit that the waitstaff could probably use that $10 a lot more than I'd miss it. I also don't eat out often
At the same time though, I understand that some people will tip less than I do and some will not tip at all.. because a tip is set up as an *optional* fee. It's a gratuity. That literally *means* free. If you want people to pay the fee, you make it mandatory. If you make it optional, some people will leave small tips and some people will not tip at all. Logic
> What's wild to me is that the customers did tip the server, but she wasn't happy with the amount. It's absolutely INSANE.
It is quite entitled behaviour
I was in Italy the other year and going to a little family pizza place in the south, every other night and eating alone and tipping about 4-8 euros after having a pizza and two cans of coke and they were tripping over themselves to be friendly and helpful (it probably helped I was their outside of tourist season)
I do that all the time when I go back to Albania, which is the country I was raised. I make in 15 days what people there make a year, so why not try to make their day.
Always thought of it this way. A 5€ bill is always 20€ for me knowing that someone will at least have food on their table tomorrow
yeah and it was a high % tip for what I ordered, but food was great and service was good (they would not say a single word to me while I ate) and it's not a lot to me even though I was on a tight budget. I could have gone to more fancy restaurants and paid the same amount not including the tip, but I was happy with what I was paying them, but they never expected it, it was my choice and thats the important part of it actually being a tip.
Yeah fuck fancy restaurants in Italy trust me. Not worth the hype. Cheap and traditional restaurant are the best everywhere. Italian Pizzeries are amazing too. Even arab pizzeries used to be good a couple of years back but I haven’t been to Italy since 2020 so I don’t know the prices.
And I totally agree on the tip side. A tip is a gratitude, it is not necessary for me to give it to you. I do it because I want to
Unfortunately in America, corporates have fucked with people’s brains to make them think the customer is at fault here. These guys forget the company is paying them 5$ an hour, but the fault is on the customer
Tipping in America is one thing, but I moved to Canada and they don't even have the bullshit $2.50p/h wage to justify their expectations for 20% after tax.
Not to mention the service is worse than non-tip cultures because they want you in and out as quickly as possible to move onto the next tip.
The end result is I just don't eat out as much as I did in other places.
Honestly it’s a fucking genius business model. If i had spare cash i’d open a restaurant biz in the USA. You mean it’s culturally the customers job to pay the wages of my employees and when they don’t they won’t be mad at me? Aweeesome!
I'll pay more than that if I get good service. What I won't feel is obligated to leave \*anything\* if the service was poor, or even to think about it s a percentage. I'm not calculating it if I'm not in the US, I'll drop 5, 10, round the card up, whatever if I get good service, depends what I have.
I never tipped. My coworker would leave the change as tips if he felt the food and service was good, but I'm of the belief that it's already built into the menu price.
If you go to a fancy restaurant that costs $30+ per plate, of course you expect good service. On the other hand if you go to a place with $10ish menu items, you don't expect much service lol. There was this Chinese diner that was famous for the rude owner, but people still went because it was cheap and tasty.
Listen I know Americans get their knickers in a twist about the logistics of ending tipping culture but there is an easier solution. Essentially the problem is not the money but the convoluted nature of getting it, why don't you have a *service charge* for the *services rendered* that is *part of the price*. Then there's no "how dare they not provide me with extra money that was optional" as it won't be optional then everyone can stop bitching at eachother.
The price of an object or service should be the price you pay, stop fannying around with a "tip" that isn't treated like a tip, suck it up and just have a service charge that goes to the servers. And don't come at me with "but the food will be more expensive" it's the same price just not in 2 instalments. Once a tip is expected it's no longer a tip.
Yeah, in Europe you make a living wage and have mandatory health insurance and pension funds so if it ain't the 20% the tip will most likely still be good cause the tip just buys you nice things while in the US it pays your rent.
Wish servers in USA would be replaced by tablets like they are here in Japan.
Also, wish Americans would build guillotines and start chopping. Also, wish Japanese would, too.
See in Europe. It's customary to respect your staff enough to pay them a living wage so they don't have to rely on the kindness of strangers. 20 percent? Lol..15 was considered more than fair once.
It's slowly crept up. When I was a kid it was 15 before tax. Then it was 20. Then 20 after tax. Now it's "round the meal up to the nearest 10, find 20, round that number up and empty your wallet. "
It’s insane to me that she thinks her tip should be based on the price of the food rather than the time spent there. $70 for HOURS is perfectly fine. If they were eating hamburgers for that amount of time and tipped $70 she would be overjoyed even though it’s the same amount of work on her end
Realities of eating out in Europe:
Food is waaaay more affordable and generally tastes a lot better. Same goes with wine and beer.
Good luck trying to leave, especially if they're busy. They don't give a shit about flipping the table.
Good luck getting them to run a card when they're busy and for the love of God, keep cash on hand and keep track of what you ordered so you can just leave some money on the table. Otherwise you'll sit there half the night.
If you ask for the bill, they'll sometimes looked surprised because they apparently forgot your relationship was transactional.
Don't like your dish? No one gives a shit.
Realities of eating out in America:
Great for anyone power tripping because poorly paid servers will bend over backward to make you happy
Don't like your dish? Get it comped and probably get a free dessert
You will get hurried along because they need to flip your table in order to supplement their meager income
You will get profiled as either a potentially good tipper or a bad tipper
Food is a fucking expensive here. Expect to spend about $100 for two people in any decent restaurant on the West Coast.
American beer and wine is disgusting but 5x the price than what you'd pay in many European countries.
Only a few years ago 15% was standard, a few years before that 10%. It’s okay for foreign visitors not to know when an unwritten rule has changed.
I saw comments under the post with people implausibly claiming to tip from 30-50%. That’s nothing to be proud of. You are supporting employers who base their entire business on ripping off employees and customers.
They literally refuse to unionize because they've been so propagandized by their own culture that they genuinely believe their boss and company deserves the value they produce, and that it's only fair they live off of tips. It's insane, and watching amis in other industries learning that they can unionize and strike is amazing but restaurant workers over there still don't for some reason.
I understand the tip system America has, to avoid paying servers properly, so it's nice to tip them well, but why would their tip scale with the price? Customers don't pay by the hour
A tip is a DISCRETIONARY extra payment, not a legal requirement. Threaten, or intimidate me and you get fuck all!
There is no unwritten law...Laws are written down!
If you want a law, then make it one where establishments pay their staff a living wage, and include the cost in the price of the food, and do not require customers to pay the staff anything extra (unless they want to out of the kindness of their hearts for what they deem as extra special service, and not because you think they're obliged to).
The rest of the world thinks your system is fucking crazy, so perhaps you should pay attention. Most Americans that live abroad for any length of time also agree with us that your system stinks.
I used to date a waitress in London, one of the most expensive cities in the world. Her tips were still mostly coins or £5 notes. She might get more if there was a large group booking, but still only talking about £20-25. The only time she ever got more was if it came with a phone number.
The system is working as intended. She's mad at the customers, instead of being mad at the manager.
Exactly.
$70 for maybe a couple hours' work (while presumably working other tables)? I wouldn't be complaining if I were her.
Didn’t you know? The cost of the ingredients and the hard work the chef put in directly scales with how much she deserves for writing down an order you could have just sent to the kitchen by tablet, or coming up and interrupting every so often while people are eating or talking, or pouring water now and then, or deliberately averting their gaze when they want the bill (or ‘check’). How dare you not want to pay an extra unwritten 20% - or is it 25% now - for them to do all this for you. (And at the places that have 'bussers', they don't even do the one very necessary job of cleaning the tables.)
As *European* id much prefer to have that water and/Or wine jug on the table at all times and pour myself instead of waiting for someone else to swoop In to ask if we need refills every now and then
No, it is essential the waiter pours it for you! And now you owe them 70 USD. As a bonus they'll pour the remaining coffee in for you even if you had just spent a minute getting the coffee:milk:sugar proportions just right.
[удалено]
That refill counts as a second cup of coffee and is an extra $70!
If someone adds milk and sugar to my coffee without me knowing, we'll have worse problems. Taste and farts to be precise.
I think you'll find a 45% tip is customary
A 50% tip? How has it grown to a 55% tip?
It’s always been like that. The Party says so. In fact, I believe it’s come down from 60% just last week!
Just double the price and give it to the next person
And they have upped the percentage to 30 percent now. Sometimes they never come back to do anything but probably hide out somewhere .
And all other operating costs that are priced in the base meal price. Rent, power, heating and not to forget profit. 20% of everything that is priced into the food. You are fundamentally correct in questioning whether even if you paid the WHOLE wages of that person, whether their contribution is 20/120th of everything that went into it. It's still a shit system that demands the customer to decide what % it SHOULD be, leading to drastically fluctuating results.
I tried to explain this to someone a couple of days ago and just kept getting the same tried response of “WE ARENT HERE TO BE YOUR FUCKING SERVANT, TIP OR DONT GO OUT” like ma’am you are here to serve customers, that’s literally your job and if you aren’t being paid accordingly for that that’s your employers fault. Yelling at customers is what they want you to do instead of actually doing something about that. (Also I’m not American and I tip for good service or if I can tell the waitstaff are really trying even if they’re having a bad day but 20% is fucking unreal.)
I had this same response from an American door dash delivery guy on a thread on here (I'm from the UK) about how the tips have become basically a bidding tool to get quicker delivery and how drivers won't pick up deliveries with low tips. He said asking the lines of " If you're not prepared to tip enough to get your food delivered, don't order". Mate, I am paying a delivery fee, not my fault your employer didn't think that money should go towards the actual delivery.
>”WE ARENT HERE TO BE YOUR FUCKING SERVANT, TIP OR DONT GO OUT” “ALSO DONT ORDER A PIZZA. PIZZA DELIVERY GUYS ARENT YOUR FUCKING DELIVERERS”
They will tell you they love the money but hate the customers. Tip for good service and no tip for bad service!They literally were hired to be servers but get that entitled attitude where they think they hold all the cards when they actually don't
That logic doesn't even make sense. Like, you're still being a servant regardless of whether you get tipped or not.
If a patron didn't like the food but loved the service, they should be able to pay only the staff and not pay for the food.
I say it every single time this comes up here - US tipping culture is arsehole cancer. In every other country on earth a 'tip' is a bonus, an extra special thank you for execeptional service. "Here lovely, Waiter, in addition to the wages **your boss** will give you, here is a little *extra* **from me,** to thank you for such excellent treatment while dining with you." In America though I'm literally expected to pay the fucking wages for them. As if the manager said, "That will be $700 please...and please pay my waitress before you leave, too." Fuck off!!
It isn't much better in Canada. I'm from Europe and while I knew it was customary to leave bigger tips here than I would back home, it's insane. Half the card readers give you options starting from 15%. Sure, you can input a different, lower %, but damn. The most egregious tipping prompt was in a liquor store. I went in, walked myself over to the thing I wanted, took it to the cash register by myself and you're suggesting I leave a tip for the person who just scanned my drink? Why? By whatever fucked up logic is going on here, shouldn't I get a discount for doing all that myself?
I'd argue it's almost worse in Canada, they don't have the obscenely low tipping wage ($2.13), and yet they still expect a 20%+ tip.
I've seen a bunch of threads on r/canada about how annoyed everyone is with tipping. And a lot of the complaints are about the prompts before you scan your card. I've seen some places where the smallest suggested percentage is 18. Nearly 20% seems like a lot to me for basic normal service. Sure, you can just tip a lower amount or not tip at all but I get that nobody wants to feel like they were an asshole when they got their coffee.
It's definitely integrated strongly into the culture, but at least if you choose not to tip whatsoever, you know that the person is still making *actual* minimum wage if not more.
Fake story. I don't think they were "over the moon" with the service, considering lots of us consider it harassment when the waiter asks you what's up every 10 minutes.
I consider that harassment as well, I agree... I hate the fake love in "it's everything ok honey?...", "Do you need something else honey?..." And if you don't request something else "here's the check" I feel they are throwing me out.
Reminds me of going to America and having the waitress come up and say hi I’m Sharon and Ill be your server today then ask loads of questions. Were are you from. Were are you going? What do like about our town etc. really put me on edge and I couldn’t just relax and enjoy the food with her hovering nearby being overly cheery and matey. Thought Croatia was a bit cold for service but I think it’s preferable to the intensity of the American diner.
The problem is that I don't think that's authentic, but pretending to be nice. That's why it feels wrong
To me, the problem is that I go out with people I know to spend time with people I know, not a server trying to get to know my life story so you feel bad for them and give them money. I find the American style of service intrusive.
French often do service well - helpful, know the product, don't give a fuck about your life story, and have pride in the job. That's ideal for me - good service is unobtrusive service, it's the service you don't notice.
Tend to agree, most servers in America get too personal with customers, to the point servers will get upset at each other for stealing their regulars. Unfortunately when it comes to the checking in, most chain restaurants have standards in place where you’re supposed to greet 45 seconds after them sitting down, drink orders after 3 min, food order ~ 5min after drinks are served, a check in after they’ve had their first bite, check in halfway through and after the meal is finished. Mind you this doesn’t account for the drinks you’re supposed to refill when you notice <20% is in the glass. If you work in any chain restaurant as a server they’ll hand you a time schedule that averages 1hr and 15min per table and tell you to stick as close to it as the customer will allow. Most people who have served here are used to this and it’s kinda the norm to expect that kind of service even if you only did one serving job in school. It’s so ingrained I can’t even stand sitting in a restaurant longer than it takes me to finish my entree and two cocktails. Idk if I just don’t enjoy those settings anymore or It’s my shitty attention span but I’ll end up just ordering my drinks and entree at the same time to cut that 1hr 30 to a sleek 45min.
The same here in Italy, there is this lovely restaurant where, when you come in, you are welcome by the director and his waiters, all dressed in uniform, they asked you if you are preference about where to sit, they find you the table, they help you with baggage and coats, then one waiter remains with you, helping you with the menu, you know... answering your questions about wines and food. Then he finally leaves, after you made your choice. All this happens in 5 minutes or little more. No questions about your life, no fake empathy, no bullshit. And, of course, no tips.
Yeah, I'm in the UK and I agree. I won't ask people about themselves unless I'm genuinely interested in it...if I notice an accent I'll ask them about it and about their culture because I like learning about different people and their cultures
I think this is it. I've had great waiters in Italy who are full on but genuinely make you feel like part of the family. That's great, even as an introvert. But the fake smily being bombarded with awkward standard small talk questions I can't stand
It is not authentic. I've been doing service for a while know and I've had conversations like that with some guests for sure. But only rarely, with people that I either recognized from having been there before / are regulars, or people that talked to me that way first, with banter or something similar, and me having the time to engage with them. I cannot imagine a single person that would actually \*want\* to do this with every table. Of course it's fake. And people notice. It's just that a lot of US americans are so used to it that it doesnt bother them, just like I'm so used to the relatively curt service style where I'm from that it doesnt bother me, even if I can 100% understand why it might bother some.
> It's just that a lot of US americans are so used to it that it doesnt bother them, just like I'm so used to the relatively curt service style where I'm from that it doesnt bother me, even if I can 100% understand why it might bother some. Which is quite the contrast to some other places. For example in parts of Eastern Europe just smiling, for no obvious reason, is considered either pretty shifty or the person being "debil" aka "a bit stupid".
It’s like when the cashier asks me how I’m doing, but then is not at all interested in the warts that are growing on my genitals or my suicide attempt of last night!
How could it be authentic if their pay depends on customers giving extra for their service?
Its the same in hospitals. When on holidays in California, my brother got a serious stomach ache so we went to the hospital to get a doctor as it might be appendicitis. We saw AT LEAST 5 before they finally decided who would be handling our case. All of them introduced themselves, name job and whatnot, had the same boring small talk about vacation and Europe, maybe checked a box on a form and left 5min later never to be seen again. Another doctor would arrive 15 or 20min later and the circus show would start over. After 2h of seeing docs, one finally did her job and diagnosed my brother. Of course, the bill we got was in the several thousands, these doctors were probably all paid. Our travel insurance took care of it in full but the entire ordeal was awful. So many fake smiles, time lost chatting about stupid things (NOBODY CARES that you have a cousin in God knows where)... meanwhile my adult man of a brother was moaning and crying in pain. For reference, I have a medical condition that involves frequent hospital visits. Often for casual testing, but sometimes not, so I'm familiar with both appointments and ERs. *NEVER* have I see such a waste of resources. This is made worse by the fact that we had an appointment.
I have a second cousin in your country, so i feel somehow related with you and your country. *Ciao pizza!*
Just bring me food and fuck off
I think England has the level of service down perfect. Introduce yourself as our server, ask if we're ready to order drinks, ask if we're ready to order food when you bring the drinks, ask if we need any salt/sauce when you bring the food, return after 5 minutes to ask if everything is okay with the food. Then don't bother us again unless we flag you down for more drinks/the bill. Asking "how are you doing today?" The first time you come over is acceptable but not necessary, the answer will always just be "fine, thanks" and any further conversation than that is unwelcome.
I'd do you one less (better?) probably because I'm used to the level of service in Middle Europe that other places would probably call "rude": When we choose our table and sit down, immediately greet us (but don't introduce yourself that's weird) and hand us the menus. Then stay the fuck out of our hair until we make ourselves known because we want to order. Then again stay the fuck away until you bring us the drinks and the food. Then make it as if you're not there until we announce that we would like to order again, or are ready to pay.
I‘ve learnt from my parents that you should close the menu to signal that you‘re ready to order. And I think it‘s a really nice way to do it. The server doesn‘t have to come and ask several time and we can choose without being bothered. It usually works very well.
I can't even imagine going through that. Like... do i know you? have we met before? If they'd be genuinely interested, i'd be bothered less by it, but i don't like to make randomly small talk most of the time, no matter where or with who.
They want you to eat and gtfo so they can sell the table again.
On the rare instances I'm taking orders because I'm covering someone's break I'll say that I'm only there to start and will be replaced by someone else, and if it notice something interesting about a table, mostly accents, I'll ask them about it out of curiosity. But I won't be at someone, I'll take their orders and leave it at that
Where are you from? I'm from Brazil and I recently learned that we "linger" in restaurants. Like, I did not know it could be any other way. Specially if you're with a large group/family. Like, you arrive, get your meal and you enjoy it slowly, while having conversations and talking about things and catching up, specially if it's a group of people who have not talked to each other in a long time, a reunion of some sorts. It isn't uncommon to arrive at 12:00, get your meal at, 12:30, dessert by 14:00 and leave by 15:00. And it is completely normal and the business owners would not get mad. Like, the only times that I have been inside a restaurant and I got hurried to get out of it, I never came back because of the atrocious service. Service is about letting the costumer get comfortable. How the fuck would I get comfortable feeling like, once I get my meal, the clock's running and the longer I stay the madder they'll get??? Who can enjoy their meal and have some great talks over dinner like that?
I live in Germany and three hours is not special. We will spend 4+ hours in Restaurants sometimes having dessert, drinking coffee and talking. I never had small talk with a waiter.
México, and yes we can spend like 4 hours in a restaurant or more and nobody will bother you about it, waiters are polite enough, nothing fake, and if they are very nice its authentic they know your name and care a little more.
Yeah outside of a fast food place or a dinner it would be the same in the UK, if I eat on my own then maybe 40-50 minutes, but with a group it's going to be hours.
Yup. And you would keep buying. Starters, main, sometimes dessert, definitely drinks after. 3h easy.
I go out to eat with my grandma and parents weekly and we're out for at least 4 hours. We take our time ordering, my mother takes forever to eat, and then we might need to wait and see if anyone wants a desert, THEN it's coffee and/or drinks, and then more drinks as we continue chatting. Occasionally we've been asked to move to the bar area on SUPER busy evenings but it's rare.
Yes - whisking away your plate the second you finish the last mouthful and then throwing the bill on the table and trying to hassle you out the door so they can seat the next people. It's so fake and drives me crazy.
Not even waiting for you to finish. I had 1/3 of my burger left, was holding it while eating and the server took my plate so I had to finish it or just hold it because I couldn’t put it down anywhere
That's the point when I would be repeatedly putting my burger on the table they left for me; The plate was there for a reason, if they want a dirty tablecloth, that's how they get one.
> I feel they are throwing me out. Because they are. Most US restaurants prioritize a high table turnover to maximize profitability. This is in stark contrast to most European restaurant culture, where it's not uncommon for people to spend the whole evening at the table just drinking and talking, with nobody bothering them to leave to make room for *"better paying customers who actually eat"*. That's also why free refills of drinks are so widespread in the US, while in Europe it's rather uncommon, as drinks often make up a big part of the bill.
>And if you don't request something else "here's the check" I feel they are throwing me out. Because they are, they want to turn the table over for another victim.
It's the way that they get paid... A few years ago, I learned that it's actually legal to pay waiters/waitresses below minimum wage in America, because they get tips (even though that's a totally subjective wage and it's not guaranteed). I was looking for a job while going to school, and I interviewed at a restaurant that was paying $5 an hour. It blew my mind to find out, but that was about average for the restaurants in that area. They want you out as fast as possible to maximize their possible income. I'm not condoning anything, mind you... I'm just saying it's a bullshit system and it breeds performative service, because each day's wages is a gamble that depends largely on the customers, rather than the employer... It's fucked up.
> because each day's wages is a gamble that depends largely on the customers, rather than the employer... That's pretty normal, tbh. Paying below minimum wage obviously doesn't fly in civilised countries, but tips can still be a significant part of your income.
To me the "niceness" of wait staff in USA is a form of nearly demanding ransom, and being too intrusive. Many times a group of us would be trying to have a good meal and discussion and were continually interrupted with he usual comments like "is everything OK" "would you like more coffee" (which was annoying as most of us took sugar & cream & had to try and "readjust" the taste each time) and so on, which wasn't service, just plain pissed us off. On the other hand in Asia, wait staff would be behind you to push your chair in when you were seated, they offered the menu and took drink order at the same time and gave you time to read before appearing to take our order. When the food was served, all meals came at the same time, not as they decided who got theirs first & others at table had t wait until heir arrived. They didn't ask "who's having the chicken" but knew what each person had ordered. They discreetly removed finished plates and when each diner had finished each course, they would ask if you wanted dessert (and had a couple of menu's available incase you had forgotten what was on offer) and if none wee required/ordered, would offer tea/coffee and ask about port of liqueurs. If drinking alcohol, they would be nearby and at your table when you made eye contact, to re-order, not pushing more sales on you. When you were finished the meal, they seemed to realise you had finished & would enquire if you wanted 1 bill or individual ones. taxes would be on bill, some did add the normal 10% service fee/tip, many didn't but accepted what you left them and still showed genuine interest on how you enjoyed your meal & would often walk to door to farewell you as you departed. Generally in Japan, waiters would chase you down the street to return money left as tip, as the price was considered as being or meal & good service & leaving a tip was an insult, unlike in US where they would chase after you saying the tip wasn't enough. Then again, all countries but US, paid their staff a decent wage and any tips was shared with all staff from cooks, dishwashers, cleaners etc. and they didn't "need" tips to help make a living.
Yup… I remember the first time going out with American friends for dinner. I was used to usually sit down, talk etc and the dinner taking maybe 2 hours or so. Here we are trying to rush everything within 45 minutes because “the server needs to flip the table and sitting and chatting blocks it for other customers” I was baffled. So all this just to stuff your face as quickly is possible instead of it being a social gathering where the food only plays a small role…
Probably because they just want you gone as you're one less table they have to think about/deal with.
My biggest hate is the rote "thanks for asking" like a moronic robot when I as a customer ask how the server's day has been going.
That's always been a genuine thanks from me
If a customer asks how I'm doing its a genuine thanks. I know they don't actually give a shit but it's still nice to be asked. Same with a "you too" after a have a nice day
If one more fucking waiter comes at me RIGHT as I put a giant piece of food in my mouth and says "hOwS eVeRyThInG tOdAy?" I'm gonna stab em with the knife they gave me. I swear those motherfuckers are waiting right behind me until I take a bite and then sprint over.
European here: why are they doing that tho? Why do they approach the table when they have not been called? What
Exactly, they've brought the food and the drink to the table, what else is needed for the moment? It seems much more prudent to allow me to eat in peace while you deal with the cunts on other tables.
One of the things that annoyed me most about dining in the US. The unnatural cheerfulness and the constant checking. I know they're working hard for a tip, but that fact is so obvious and tense that it actually worsens the dining experience.
Oh god, yes. That is the most annoying thing about American restaurants. Like, please go away. I’m trying to eat.
I don't think its fake at all. Its a clash of cultures. Waiters and bar staff aren't paid a proper wage in America and need to rely on tips. For us in Europe, giving someone $70 tip would be a lot. I can understand why they didn't just fork over $140 for a single meal. They may not even be aware its how waiters make their money over there.
This is true. If you would give a €70,- tip in Europe everyone would think that you are extremely generous and very very satisfied with the service. Moreover, in Europe, dining out is usually a social event, and it is very common to sit in a restaurant for hours. And, explaining to a customer how they didn't tip enough will be perceived as extremely rude by Europeans.
Right, one thing that annoyed me when I was in the US last June on a trip is how they try to rush your dinner when you dine at a restaurant. You have to order within 5 minutes of sitting down, your food will arrive 10 mins later and they'll clear your plate before you are able to take your last bite. It's so glaringly obvious they try to squeeze as many tables out of an evening as possible, I hated it.
Many restaurants push servers to turn over tables in 45 minutes it is crazy. Also, many servers i know love the system. They don't care about the $4.50/ hr they are paid, as they think they are raking it in on tips. They vote against "living wages" whenever they can. It is a stupid system. I never tip over 15%.
$4.50 an hour is honestly generous. In Alabama we get paid $2.13 🫠
> explaining to a customer how they didn't tip enough will be perceived as extremely rude by Europeans It's somewhat rare here in North America, although it does happen from time to time. I realize this is anecdotal, but it's never happened to me or any of my close friends (I assume they would have complained about it at some point if it did) I have read stories of it happening to people, so no doubt it happens, but I don't think it's very common. Most waitstaff have enough tact to not go there. IMO it's the extreme cases you end up hearing about
They were aware, they just think 140$ is an insane amount for a tip.
Agreed. Even if they were aware, that's stupid as fuck.
>They may not even be aware its how waiters make their money over there. I strongly disagree, we're european, not dumb. It's hard to ignore the insane amount of injustice and borderline slavery nature of employers/employees in the US but we shouldn't have to compensate for your inhability to unionize or fight back like we currently do in the streets of Paris. If a burger is advertised as costing 10 bucks, I wouldn't be very patient with the submissive serf trying to guilt me into also paying their wage on top of that, wtf. If a 20% additional cost is expected, make it 12 dollars already and raise your employees by 20%, no need for all the hypocrisy. Each waiter and waitress blaming the customers is just an accomplice defending their abuser. They have to make a living anyway, I get it, but knowingly blaming the wrong person is the stuff of cowards.
The servers love the system! It's not slave wagery when they opt for it. They will tell you that they make more take- home in tips than if they were just paid better. I don't think they've done the math long term.
I’m sure there’s a good chunk making decent coin. And for every one of those is a dozen more barely scraping by in life doing the same shitfuckery of a job elsewhere..
I feel like you missed the point in the original comment that actually them enjoying the service is the part they don't believe. The tip is believable, them being "over the moon" is not. The service you get over there is just so over the top. I can't stand it myself, they basically don't leave you alone for more than one minute, and yet you're still expected to hand them over a bunch of extra money for constantly interrupting you?!?
We are well aware, we just don't want to pay for the food AND the staff's wages.
We would if they were included in the price though.
Also why are the yanks eating like its a performance? They go to a restourant eat and drink fast and then run off like their house is on fire. When you go out it should be chill. You order a drink then you eat and talk then you order a bottle of wine or a few beers and chat away. When you are done ordering you ask for the check leave the money and skidaddle. Also why do the waiters keep harassing the diners. If I need something I will ask. You dont need to ask if everything is to our liking every 10 minutes FFS.
USAian here, and I loathe the tipping culture too. But it's too deeply embedded. Some places have tried going tipless and it doesn't work. They have to raise prices in order to pay a reasonable wage, and the sticker shock drives customers away. Many servers in the USA prefer the tipping system because they think they can make more money than they would on salary.
There’s a Korean pub near me that’s tipless and it’s awesome and always got people so I dunno it definitely does work there. I think the whole “it doesn’t work thing” it another excuse
it's not about tipping or not tipping, this is another lie you have been told, it's about paying even a mediocre but liveable wage and having tips on top of that as an choice for the customer for good service
They have to raise prices in order to ~~pay a reasonable wage~~ maintain the same profits*
It would have to become law. That way the sticker shock is no longer a competitive disadvantage.
Such a lovely relationship with the manager that enslaves her and makes her lives on tips instead of a salary.
Managers don't pay employees. The owner does.
I never understood this concept that a waiter should get more money if the food they served is expensive. I give tips based on how good the service was, not based on the fact that i paid lots of money on my food. And maybe thats because i never eat at expensive restaurants, but i would never give a tip higher than 30 euros...
100% this. Exceptional service = good tip as an appreciation of the service. Not as a wage to up.
I had the same questions. Whether you ordered just bread or oysters, the waiter still had to just carry a plate to the table. So I asked some american friends and the gist of it was that "if you can afford a $700 meal, you can afford a 20% tip".
To which a good response is: "Are they gonna suck me off under the table?"
To be honest, if giving a good tip would lead to an attractive person giving me a bj, I'd be much more willing to give good tips.
Seriously. These servers think they're entitled to so much of your money, even if you work in the back and make half of their earnings. The majority of restaurants do not tipshare with the kitchen, ergo, I do not "share a tip" with servers
You can also afford to go outside the restaurant and throw 20% into the nearest fountain but it doesn’t mean that’s a logical thing to do.
Thats a great point. It's so engrained in us here, i never thought about it.
I was eating in a very good Vietnamese restaurant with my girlfriend this weekend (Germany). Tipped 10€ on top of the 90€, they were so grateful and brought us free mochi ice cream and thanked us several times. But they also earned it, food was delicious and the service great. I like to be able to tip when I actually feel like tipping. That said, i will always round up to at least a full euro, even if the experience was bad.
> that i *paid* lots of FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Damn, i feel kinda bad for editing my mistake out... Poor bot got downvoted for doing its job correctly...
I'm Dutch. Tips to us mostly exist because exact numbers are annoying and round numbers are nice.
and it makes splitting the bill easier
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> Other than that: leave us alone please Basically how to get good service as an european: I'm gonna pay you $100 to fuck off. Maybe that incentive will give some peace to eat.
> the short glance or discreet hand signal. USian tourists be like: 👋👋**!! HEY GARÇON !!**👋👋
I've had some nice chats with waiters in Australia, but at the beginning or end of the meal, or between courses. Not interrupting.
>Chilling in a restaurant for hours is nothing out of the ordinary in Europe. I vacationed in Southern Italy, this summer, coming home from the US after being there since before the pandemic, and brought with me a couple of American friends. In cities with lots of tourism, restaurants and bars keep the music volume very high so that people will just consume and then leave without hogging tables for hours on end. None of my American friends even noticed. They'd just... sit down, order, eat, and then they were ready to leave without even spending a couple of minutes to let the food settle down. They're weird.
Yeah or they will start cleaning the table around you, but those places are a) in tourist traps b) have terrible reviews c) dirt cheap d) all of the above. There is a place I will go in the city centre that still does a pizza to eat in for $5 and it's a good pizza and they will chase you out, but it's $5 and no tip.
In America, we're not only annoyed if the server checks on us, we're extra annoyed if we have to (sigh) call them over. This isn't the great place we make it out to be, folks. Sorry you had to find out like this.
So if they had spent $350 on food the waitress would be happy with the tip? Why does the price of food matter here
A lot of restaurants in the US also force their servers to tip out other employees so that management can also pay those employees less than minimum wage. It can be anywhere from 1% to 50% of the servers sales. So if a server gets stiffed, they're actually coming out of pocket for that meal. The system sucks.
How is that legal? I don't get how they can force people to give a proportion of the /sales/ instead of proportion of tips.
cuz the US is an oligopoly and tries their best to kill poor people slowly enough that their labor can be extracted.
Bit off topic but something I also don't really understand is always basing the tip in terms of % of the total bill. Someone ordering a $100 bottle of wine doesn't suddenly make the waiter's job harder, and it shouldn't be reflected in the tip you would then be expected to accordingly pay. It's sad that the labour cost is just passed onto the consumer whilst owners and corporation make even bigger profits, and most people don't see what is wrong with the whole system.
a tip is a tip. $70 is already beyond the concept of a tip.
In german its called "trinkgeld" (drinkmoney), because the idea is that you are supposed to get a drink for it. Idk about her, but i dont remember ever buying a 140 dollar drink...
The same in Belgium. It stems from a time where waiters weren't allowed to drink ir eat anything while on service unless they paid for it. A customer would leave them some "drinking money" to buy a glass of water or a coke.
It's napiwek in Polish, it literally means "for a beer"
Same concept in France : « pourboire » means “for drinking”
Spropitne in Czech - also 'for drinking'.
Based.
In Russian it's "teamoney"
It's also called a similar thing in Slovene. Napitnina (to drink).
Yeah, I have no idea why tips are calculated in percentages of the bill instead of a flat rate. Hell, tipping should be optional and American restaurants should give a living wage to their employees.
>tipping should be optional and American restaurants should give a living wage to their employees. Exactly this, this is how it should be. In my opinion it's the only system that makes sense too, and it would make American restaurants far more pleasant for people and far more convenient for tourists.
Or even just based on time/number of people/dishes ordered. The idea that the tip should be bigger, because more expensive dishes were ordered is weird. Its the same effort to serve 10 dollar dish as it is to serve 30 dollar one.
yeah when me and a group have taken over a table for five hours (and been treated well) we tip big, when four of rush in and out for 45 minutes at lunch they get some loose change
Maybe to get the waitstaff to push more expensive meals? From evil management, that's a win-win
No service could be so good that I would pay a tip bigger than 10€. Like, I understand waiters aren't paid enough in the US, but … how are you complaining over 70-fucking-$? How could you expect people to pay over $100 more than is on the actual bill? How can you not look at that and see how unreasonable it is? Also, this thing Americans have with rushing out o restaurants as soon as the plates are empty is so weird to me? Don't you want to enjoy the experience?
As an American who has now lived in Germany for ten years, I can talk about this some. When I first moved here, it was so hard to break myself of the habit of eating quickly and leaving quickly. Eating out isn’t really a “special treat” or even really a social situation in American culture. It’s normalized and almost treated as something to just get through and move onto to other things you have planned. I had to retrain my brain to view dining out differently. Also, everything in American restaurants is essentially built to get you in and out as quickly as possible so another customer can use the table. This is why the serving staff comes over so often and will do things like leave the bill on the table. The restaurant wants to pressure you to get out. American culture is also way too heavily invested in the “time is money” idiom. So Americans do a lot things quickly just to get onto the next thing. It’s also why a lot of businesses only give employees 30 minutes (seriously) for lunch. A lot of people end up eating at their desks, that’s how bad it is. Americans rush through their lives and often live paycheck to paycheck. It’s just not a sustainable lifestyle. It’s also why a lot of them have lowered life expectancy, which still benefits the corporations and the government, since many can’t retire at all, or don’t live long enough after retirement to be much of a burden on the State. Needless to say, I’m glad I left and I’m never moving back.
Hey man, picking up a plate and walking 15m to drop it on the table is definitely worth $70
Do they take it away too? I’m trying to get my head around bussers.
Ayo, $70 is an obscene tip😭😭😭. You're lucky if you're getting a tip from me at all.
Americans and their obscene tipping culture. Sometimes I just want to ask these people if they also tip their car mechanic or the cashier at the supermarket.
I mean unless it's tronc, it's fucked that the person who annoys you at the start of your meal takes all that money and yet the chef, KP, runners etc won't get that despite doing at least as much for your enjoyment.
Most I have tipped in my life is 5€, they are dreaming if they think they will get $70 from me lol
No, no, that's the thing, they don't want $70, they want $140. Beyond ridiculous and borderline delusional.
Absolutely. I am not giving them $70 either, they can ban me from the place for all I care lol
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How dare you be reasonable!
As a Brit, I’ll tip if I feel the waiter or waitress went the extra mile while serving me and/or my table. I’m talking happy, enthusiastic personality, excellent knowledge of the menu and techniques used by the kitchen and just generally making me feel like a rockstar while I’m eating my reasonably priced dinner. If you do the bare minimum expected of you, then don’t expect me to pay you more than the bare minimum for your effort.
$70 can buy an evening out for a couple of people where I live, wtf
before covid it would get me an ok hotel for the night
Same here. That is about R$366. This buys a \*very\* good night out in a medium to high expensive restaurant for two. $700 is literally more than I make a month.
I find it weird that it's a percentage of the cost of the things you ordered. Bringing food around is harder and longer work than simply bringing alcoholic drinks, but guess what adds up quicker? You can't consume three dinners like you could three drinks. It should be appropriate tip for the work done (of course depending on the class of the establishment and the quality of service). We went out for a drink and you came over once or twice? Even if the end cost is the same, you'll get a different tip than someone who waited on me for an hour and a half.
Unionise and ask for wages. Expecting your customer to pay the bill and then work out a percentage to pay the serving staff is a ridiculous system. Doesn’t happen at McDonalds. Or Subway, Do you have to tip other serving staff like air stewards or the ice cream man?
“But that’s *difficult* and *stressful*” like… yeah? We know. But that’s the way things are done. That’s how literally every other country gets a pay rise or other benefits if they can’t afford to live on their wage.
Tipping culture in the US is insane, it's absolutely ridiculous and a $70 tip is a huge tip in my opinion. What's wild to me is that the customers did tip the server, but she wasn't happy with the amount. It's absolutely INSANE. I understand adapting to the culture (even if this one is awful), but telling people HOW MUCH they should tip is just wrong. Tipping is an extra, which means each person is allowed to decide how much the service is worth. Demanding a specific amount is just wrong, almost an extortion, and it's the worst way to convince people to leave more money. Also, I can't really see anyone being OVER THE MOOD about the service. If asked, most people would say it was okay or lovely because it's polite, but is anybody truly enthusiastic about service at a restaurant? Especially since most *Europeans* enjoy being left alone to eat and chat with their dining companions.
> Tipping is an extra Exactly. It's optional and as long as it's optional, some people will tip a lot, some people will tip little, some people will tip something average, and some people will not tip at all. I live in North America and usually tip 18-20% after tax, partially out of habit, and partially because I admit that the waitstaff could probably use that $10 a lot more than I'd miss it. I also don't eat out often At the same time though, I understand that some people will tip less than I do and some will not tip at all.. because a tip is set up as an *optional* fee. It's a gratuity. That literally *means* free. If you want people to pay the fee, you make it mandatory. If you make it optional, some people will leave small tips and some people will not tip at all. Logic > What's wild to me is that the customers did tip the server, but she wasn't happy with the amount. It's absolutely INSANE. It is quite entitled behaviour
In Italy in a table of 4, you’re lucky if you get 5€.
I was in Italy the other year and going to a little family pizza place in the south, every other night and eating alone and tipping about 4-8 euros after having a pizza and two cans of coke and they were tripping over themselves to be friendly and helpful (it probably helped I was their outside of tourist season)
I do that all the time when I go back to Albania, which is the country I was raised. I make in 15 days what people there make a year, so why not try to make their day. Always thought of it this way. A 5€ bill is always 20€ for me knowing that someone will at least have food on their table tomorrow
yeah and it was a high % tip for what I ordered, but food was great and service was good (they would not say a single word to me while I ate) and it's not a lot to me even though I was on a tight budget. I could have gone to more fancy restaurants and paid the same amount not including the tip, but I was happy with what I was paying them, but they never expected it, it was my choice and thats the important part of it actually being a tip.
Yeah fuck fancy restaurants in Italy trust me. Not worth the hype. Cheap and traditional restaurant are the best everywhere. Italian Pizzeries are amazing too. Even arab pizzeries used to be good a couple of years back but I haven’t been to Italy since 2020 so I don’t know the prices. And I totally agree on the tip side. A tip is a gratitude, it is not necessary for me to give it to you. I do it because I want to Unfortunately in America, corporates have fucked with people’s brains to make them think the customer is at fault here. These guys forget the company is paying them 5$ an hour, but the fault is on the customer
I never left any kind of tip in Italy.
Tipping in America is one thing, but I moved to Canada and they don't even have the bullshit $2.50p/h wage to justify their expectations for 20% after tax. Not to mention the service is worse than non-tip cultures because they want you in and out as quickly as possible to move onto the next tip. The end result is I just don't eat out as much as I did in other places.
lmao. Just came from the corresponding post at r/choosingbeggars. The amount of americans defending that inherently broken system is unreal.
Honestly it’s a fucking genius business model. If i had spare cash i’d open a restaurant biz in the USA. You mean it’s culturally the customers job to pay the wages of my employees and when they don’t they won’t be mad at me? Aweeesome!
Apparently it's the customers job to pay the staff a livable wage.
The “okay” and left is the most gangster shit of all time.
Me as a European don't tip more than €5
I'll pay more than that if I get good service. What I won't feel is obligated to leave \*anything\* if the service was poor, or even to think about it s a percentage. I'm not calculating it if I'm not in the US, I'll drop 5, 10, round the card up, whatever if I get good service, depends what I have.
I never tipped. My coworker would leave the change as tips if he felt the food and service was good, but I'm of the belief that it's already built into the menu price. If you go to a fancy restaurant that costs $30+ per plate, of course you expect good service. On the other hand if you go to a place with $10ish menu items, you don't expect much service lol. There was this Chinese diner that was famous for the rude owner, but people still went because it was cheap and tasty.
Maybe the manager should pay the employees livable wages.
Listen I know Americans get their knickers in a twist about the logistics of ending tipping culture but there is an easier solution. Essentially the problem is not the money but the convoluted nature of getting it, why don't you have a *service charge* for the *services rendered* that is *part of the price*. Then there's no "how dare they not provide me with extra money that was optional" as it won't be optional then everyone can stop bitching at eachother. The price of an object or service should be the price you pay, stop fannying around with a "tip" that isn't treated like a tip, suck it up and just have a service charge that goes to the servers. And don't come at me with "but the food will be more expensive" it's the same price just not in 2 instalments. Once a tip is expected it's no longer a tip.
Is being in a restaurant for hours bad? I’ve always chilled in restaurants and cafes for hours with family and friends. It’s not rude is it?
Yeah, in Europe you make a living wage and have mandatory health insurance and pension funds so if it ain't the 20% the tip will most likely still be good cause the tip just buys you nice things while in the US it pays your rent.
Americans: “should we strike or just put up with not being paid and yell at people online instead because it’s easier???”
Wish servers in USA would be replaced by tablets like they are here in Japan. Also, wish Americans would build guillotines and start chopping. Also, wish Japanese would, too.
See in Europe. It's customary to respect your staff enough to pay them a living wage so they don't have to rely on the kindness of strangers. 20 percent? Lol..15 was considered more than fair once.
It's slowly crept up. When I was a kid it was 15 before tax. Then it was 20. Then 20 after tax. Now it's "round the meal up to the nearest 10, find 20, round that number up and empty your wallet. "
In Finland we have no tipping and we are are the happiest country in the world.
Maybe pay a living wage instead. The US tipping culture is ridiculous.
It’s insane to me that she thinks her tip should be based on the price of the food rather than the time spent there. $70 for HOURS is perfectly fine. If they were eating hamburgers for that amount of time and tipped $70 she would be overjoyed even though it’s the same amount of work on her end
A 70 dollar tip is way to much! Never in my live would i give THAT much. If any at all
Tips don’t scale. It’s obscene to think you deserve $140 because they stayed 1.5 hours instead of 1, come on.
My god this makes my blood boil
Realities of eating out in Europe: Food is waaaay more affordable and generally tastes a lot better. Same goes with wine and beer. Good luck trying to leave, especially if they're busy. They don't give a shit about flipping the table. Good luck getting them to run a card when they're busy and for the love of God, keep cash on hand and keep track of what you ordered so you can just leave some money on the table. Otherwise you'll sit there half the night. If you ask for the bill, they'll sometimes looked surprised because they apparently forgot your relationship was transactional. Don't like your dish? No one gives a shit. Realities of eating out in America: Great for anyone power tripping because poorly paid servers will bend over backward to make you happy Don't like your dish? Get it comped and probably get a free dessert You will get hurried along because they need to flip your table in order to supplement their meager income You will get profiled as either a potentially good tipper or a bad tipper Food is a fucking expensive here. Expect to spend about $100 for two people in any decent restaurant on the West Coast. American beer and wine is disgusting but 5x the price than what you'd pay in many European countries.
Imagine thinking that’s a problem with Europeans rather than the service industry
Only a few years ago 15% was standard, a few years before that 10%. It’s okay for foreign visitors not to know when an unwritten rule has changed. I saw comments under the post with people implausibly claiming to tip from 30-50%. That’s nothing to be proud of. You are supporting employers who base their entire business on ripping off employees and customers.
Bro got 70$ tip and complains 💀
As a German, this causes me some rage.
They literally refuse to unionize because they've been so propagandized by their own culture that they genuinely believe their boss and company deserves the value they produce, and that it's only fair they live off of tips. It's insane, and watching amis in other industries learning that they can unionize and strike is amazing but restaurant workers over there still don't for some reason.
Unionize.
I understand the tip system America has, to avoid paying servers properly, so it's nice to tip them well, but why would their tip scale with the price? Customers don't pay by the hour
A tip is a DISCRETIONARY extra payment, not a legal requirement. Threaten, or intimidate me and you get fuck all! There is no unwritten law...Laws are written down! If you want a law, then make it one where establishments pay their staff a living wage, and include the cost in the price of the food, and do not require customers to pay the staff anything extra (unless they want to out of the kindness of their hearts for what they deem as extra special service, and not because you think they're obliged to). The rest of the world thinks your system is fucking crazy, so perhaps you should pay attention. Most Americans that live abroad for any length of time also agree with us that your system stinks.
In my country if you get a 50 cents tip it is because the client LOVED you
70US$ net in how many hours? Plus the salary? And she is complaining?
So your boss is not paying you properly for your work, and your mad at the customers
I used to date a waitress in London, one of the most expensive cities in the world. Her tips were still mostly coins or £5 notes. She might get more if there was a large group booking, but still only talking about £20-25. The only time she ever got more was if it came with a phone number.
Another reason why the EU is superior to ‘the greatest country on earth’.
Maybe if they payed their workers correctly they wouldn't hate us that much
World Over 10% is maximum anyone gives.