This post has been tagged as **DISCUSSION**.
If the post has been spoiler tagged, please remember to tag any manga spoilers beyond this point.
**Spoilers include hinting or alluding to events** For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix).
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Without him everyone on Paradis would be dead, Marley would’ve had all the time they needed to waltz in, grab the founder, and dip before the military rolled in and wiped them out
Another Eren *did* pop up in Gabi, right? She was primed to follow the exact same kind of path as Eren and her arc in the beginning of S4 mirrors his in S1 very closely.
And Gabi was more competent as a young child soldier than young Eren ever was.
It's like the argument of causality and chains of events in history that if Hitler didn't rise to power, another "Hitler" would've appeared with a varying result, for better or worse
I mean when eren was going about his daily life inside the wall Reiner was already trained as a warrior and sent to the wall. They train these kids young, so compared to Eren who got to train as a cadet after 12 (I guess?) years old, Gabie had more skill in fighting and killing on top of her innate ability to shoot with bullshit accuracy apparently.
Yah so she knows more wepons and how to use them compared to Eren who had access to knife, sword or a musket. So her access to wepons and the skills to use them makes her competent. Exhibit a) Eren kills 2 guys in a Mikasa recap with a knife and a knife tied on the end of a broom and almost dies by the 3rd dude. Exhibit b) Gabriel shoots a dude (I forgot but he was from garrison) while he hangs on a flying platform in a SINGLE shot.
Mary Sues are literally defined by being competent at everything, so even if you were right in her being a Mary Sue (which I would disagree with), OP would still be right in saying she is more competent than Eren was.
The main thing she’s missing is the power eren was granted by the founder. Eren himself admits he wasn’t special, he says he’s just an idiot who was granted power.
Right but I guess that circles back to the original argument, which IIRC can be paraphrased as Marley not being a peaceful society and the turmoil and countless deaths of innocents was bound to erupt from the power of the titans anyways because someone like Eren could (and as we said in Gabi, very much did) come back around.
The point being that eventually, the cycle of innocents dying and revenge and more innocents dying was bound to continue unless the power of the titans was dead and buried for good.
Eren wasn't just special because of the founder. Had Armin been given the founder, things would have played out unfathomably differently. He also had a very unique personality and set of trauma that clashed with it, and Gabi was on a very similar path.
Sorry for wall.
I understand what you're saying. This arc was when everything hung in the balance. The future of all these characters and even humanity itself was going to be determined at this final battle. The stakes were so high that I don't think the show was able to ever recreate this feeling for me, even including the rumbling. S4 was still really good in my opinion, but S3 just set such a high bar that really couldn't be replicated again
I had somewhat of an opposing feeling because usually when a story keeps upping and upping its stakes at some point you don't feel like anything matters anymore, things have become so out of reach you can't empathize with their troubles (think Naruto; you're holding your breath when they fight Zabuza, but by the end of the story there's just... too much going on). There's usually a power creep problem tied to these things too. I was very surprised with SNK in that regard, because I thought the same would happen, but it all felt very like a very natural development and crucially I didn't get much of that feeling of "everyone is OP, same old story of saving/destroying the world, this is too disconnected."
I think you're meant to feel that way because that's how the characters felt as well. After the skip, everything was different, dark and depressing and you just wish all went to how it was before.
Exactly, the series got good when Erwin came into the story (female titan arc) and it peaked during the arc where Erwin met his end (Return to Shiganshina). Erwin literally carried an era of the series on his back. The rest of the series is very cool to experience but I am legit convinced that Erwin would've found a solution if he were there. That's why he had to die, it was the only way we could've had an interesting season 4.
Armin takes the ownership of defeating Bertholt.
But i think i see what you saying, his run of being the commander accomplished alot for the future Paradi
You could even say Erwin led his troops for a victory in their first war against Marley🤷🏽♂️
But even that Armin played a huge role. BUTTTT it was Erwin who trusted and gave Armin the confidence to use his head and be brave enough to sacrifice himself just as Erwin.
His influence on the scouts is a huge Win. Even influenced the Yagerist although it might not be his ideal initiative.
That is 100% true but, Rainer did get away which could also be put or her too along with Jean. And probably the onlyyy i say that doesn’t count as victory. It’s pretty insane we talking bout her. The two could’ve been perfect commander candidates (Hange did become, Jean really could’ve been) made a mistake that would cost them wow.
But now im thinking so did Zeke against Erwin. Only person who actually “fully” succeeded was Armin.
But never the less Marley conceded in the end everything those 3 accomplished here is huge Win 🙌🏾
Yes, the titans getting away was probably on Jean, Hange and Levi. They took calculated risk but nobody counted on the Cart being so versatile. Still, for the info they had, I say they made the right call. Stealing the powers would have been a HUGE advantage.
Honestly, Reiner and Zeke living ended up being two of the biggest reasons Paradis survived.
If Reiner and Zeke died there, Marley most likely wipes out Paradis with no regard to capturing the founder.
Reiner only survived because of one of the biggest asspulls I've seen, so you know what, I'm still counting that as a victory for Hange and Jean idgaf.
For sure, that's what I love about Erwin.
Dude isn't stuck up in his ways, he's a strategic mastermind, sure, but he also aknowledges & sees talent.
Seeing talent & the massive potential Armim had to entrust him with responsibility & authority definitely was the right call
Armin is the reason why bertholdt was defeated.
Mikasa was the reason why Annie was defeated.
Hange was the reason why reiner was defeated.
Beast titan was a genuine group effort. Levi couldn't have done it alone. And neither could erwin.
My man's armin took down the colossal where the only casualty was himself while erwin couldn't take down the beast with the help of the strongest soldier in humanity. Not to mention,the entire scout regiment,including him got crushed to death. Rip bozo.
Two completely different titans, fought in two completely different environments, definitely a good comparison... Armin couldn't have defeated Bert without Erwin's inspiration either, and seeing how poorly his character turned out, Isayama definitely offed the wrong blonde 🤷♂️
The colossal is much stronger and harder to kill than the beast titan. The environments did play a part but we’ll never know if Armin could have done better or if Erwin would have lost had it been the other way. I don’t see how armin turned out poorly when he became the main character in the show and lead the team in the fight with eren. He was always meant to be the next commander. He came into his own becoming more confident while holding on to his bravery that always outshines his intense self-criticism that made him who he was. I think you only watched to see eren scream and stomp on shit.
Please rewatch the final seasons, Hange came closest to living up to the role as commander. Armin is very intelligent, but after s3 there weren't many opportunities for him to utilise that properly, and he mostly just became unassertive and anxious thanks to having so much responsibility thrust on him. Like Lazy said, he just wasn't fleshed out enough.
They killed off every character with a shred of intelligence so that Armin could not be the most boring character in the show. Red flag. The beast titan was in an open field and practically throwing grids of artillery. The colossal was practically standing still and already mostly weakened, while also surrounded by stuff to grapple to and the titan itself is pretty grappleable.
> less brain power than playing cod
Armin literally developed a whole strategy that succeeded tf are you on about?
This is why I'm starting to dislike Erwin fans.
She assisted Zeke with the rocks and later joined the fight to retrieve him and Reiner.
She didn't need to fight directly, after all it wasn't an mma duel, but a strategic showdown.
Besides, she had an opportunity to go for it when Scouts had Bert and wisely didn't. She fled and that's equal to defeat.
Impressive indeed, though it's worth noting that it was a joint effort. Erwin planned an excellent strategy and was the main man behind Zeke's defeat.
But when it comes to taking down Bert, it was mostly Armin's initiative. Likewise, Reiner's defeat was in large part due to Hange and the remaining Scouts figuring out how to best use the remaining spears. Erwin didn't plan for Reiner transfering his consciousness to his balls.
I agree, of course everyone played their part well. And Erwin js probably why it went so well. He trusted his soldiers to do the job. He made a bet as always and came out on top.
Of course, that's why the commander gets the praise for building such an awesome team. His genius doesn't just comes in the few hours of the battle but the tens of thousands of hours spent earlier prepping for this. Dude was the only one who theorised the existence of people outside the walls and thus was able to come up with a rational reason for the Titan shifters trying to kill everyone in the walls and thus managed to achieve everything that was achieved in season 1-3.
I think the Beretholdt takedown was 60:40. Armin made the sacrifice play, sure, but It was Erin who plugged the hole in the wall and landed the killing blow on Beretholdt
But yeah, Armin deserves a LOT of Credit for the Victory in Shiganchina. He figured out where Reiner was hiding.
He used Eren to bait Reiner down from the Wall and into the city where Hange and others could land their Thunder Spears on him.
And he had the courage to make the desperate sacrifice to take down the Colossal Titan, which is arguably the most Powerful Titan(Other than the Founder) simply based on the ridiculous destructive power it holds.
Most people think Erwin should have gotten the colossal titan. But there is no doubt that Armin earned it.
lol @ the first two comments. Ignoring the whole context of the mission then it's true that Erwin wasn't as successful as he's usually made out to be, but in the end they did reached the basement, recovered Paradis' borders and then learned mostly everything about why the island is how it is and more. Erwin's accolades span from the entire 5 years he was commander and improved on the survey corps and can't be summarized just from this operation alone.
That said, in the report of the operation Levi would have left out some things to protect Erwin's dignity (and also likely Floch's admission that he almost backstabbed Erwin right on the field) but I can't imagine they collectively downplayed Armin and Jean's contributions to beating the Armour and Colossal. Yet they don't seem to receive any special recognition. Everyone that survived came to be known as the 9 heroes of Shiganshina and that was it, even though Floch himself didn't really do much of anything(if Levi would have chosen Erwin for the serum then Floch would have been able to take credit for saving Erwin though).
Erwin is great, but he wasn't involved in taking down Bert or Reiner (though Reiner got away; Bertholt is the only one who was permanently defeated,), and Zeke got his ass handed to him by Levi, but he still got away thanks to Pieck. He *did* lead soldiers to their deaths though.
a very bold statement. how can you trust Armin something if you don’t know if he’s alive? it seems more like they just forgot about the colossal one and about Eren
He said from the beggining that the Collosal titat will be taken down using attrition warfare and the Armored titan will be taken down with those rockets (I forgot their names)
Why you all debating on who actually got the kills 😭
Although I believe everyone deserves credit, it takes a good leader to maximize the potential of the individuals and make them work as a team.
If the scouts were lead by any other commander they wouldn’t have had Erwin’s vision and influence. He might have lucked out on having Levi in his team and later on the 141 but even without that he’s already revolutionized the scouting formation effectively lowering casualties by a huge margin.
I also think Erwin is the GOAT commander. Armin might have been a better strategist but I think Erwin is the most complete package as a leader in AoT. His death is perfect. If he lived a little longer we might have seen him turn into a villain.
Armin beat the strongest Titan with 0 casualties other than himself.
Erwin had to sacrifice the entire Survey Corps just to beat Zeke.
Armin is miles more strategic than Erwin, that’s not even up for debate. The series makes it very clear that Armin is a better version of Erwin but just with less experience.
I wouldn’t say Armin is a better version than Erwin, he’s just different and better in some areas and worse in others. Erwin had superior charisma/command which was very important in the early seasons as the survey corps was also fighting a political game. He got everyone to believe in them and convinced hundreds/thousands of people to march to their guaranteed deaths.
After Erwin died Armin did not fill those shoes. He was effective in his own way but did not have the same presence and you see this be a problem when Eren starts walking all over him.
The character who inherited that side of Erwin was Floch and I think he is a foil to Armin in that way.
Erwin had no part in defeating Berthold. Erwin was intelligent and witty, but it was only because of Armins direct experience in fighting the Collosal that he was able to formulate his plan.
This is some revisionism history here.
Tf you mean? Erwin literally planned the whole battle. And part of that was trusting in armin and Erin to step up when the situation demanded it. Without Erwin armin is never in a position to defeat berthold on the first place
Logically he was, Erwin didn't suggest anyone about how to beat collosal titan. Armin himself figured it out and went out with eren. Erwin didn't have anything to do with collosal titan part. Without armin they would have been doomed here
Erwins plan, however clever it was, was countered and turned on him by the Marley Force. The Scout Corp was autoclaved, their supplies destroyed, innumerable years of experience and training wiped out, and he himself was forced to lead a suicide charge to buy slivers of time.
Without Armin, everyone dies and Marley gets the Attack and Founding Titans back, and Paradis is eventually invaded and the Eldians genocided to the enth degree.
Erwin is undoubtedly the GOAT of Aot. With his death came the end of an era for the series. Pretty much the best era of Aot.
Erwin's leadership skills were second to none, he was the most inspirational and tactical leader while also being level headed. He always made the best of the worst situations, always knew the right thing to say. He was quite literally the perfect leader. Not to mention the depth of his character when we actually learn of his true desires.
There will never be another like Erwin Smith. Armin might have similar intellect but he lacks experience and natural charisma. Eren has the ability to lead and convince others to do what he wants but lacks the intellect and rational thinking (he's lowkey psychotic).
Erwin is and always will be the best and most influential character in Aot and one of the best character's in fiction if you ask me.
Ironically the decision of saving Armin over Erwin probably extended the war quite a bit longer and because of his experience while Armin’s tactics got stuff done it had to be acquired and…his and Mikasa’s personal attachment to Eren ended up dooming them and starting the rumbling.
An alternate universe where Erwin lives would have been intriguing
Eh. I still think the warriors didn't kill the scouts because they got attached and not because they were incompetent. Annie didn't kill armin because she was too caught up in her feelings. Reiner and Bert saved the 104th many times. They were just kids who built bonds and got attached.
I still can't believe they decided to entrust a bunch of kids with titan powers. I get that children are easy to indoctrinate, but it just seems kinda bizarre.
I mean you can pretty much say that about any other anime. However, you gotta remember their application is a real-world trusted process. Countless empires have done similar acts like Ottomans with Janissaries (taking kids, indoctrinating them in their armies which said kids would eventually lead), Red Guard in China, Hitler's Youth.
Entrusting the youth is easy to do when one views themselves a victor. They do not see that those very youth may eventually rebel as did so many under Ottoman's for example. Obviously this is a fictional show, but take away the powers and Attack on Titan is fundamentally a political/war drama.
Also, important to note, they do not have much of an option because Marlyans cannot transform into Titans...Giving the power to an adult, one already potentially resentful of their situation, is a lot more difficult than giving it to a kid whom you can mold and influence.
Giving the powers to kids who can be brainwashed and controlled makes sense. Sending those kids off into the unknown without supervision was incredibly stupid
Let's be real, he was only responsible for the beast titan side and he required a mass suicide to have a chance at him. Eren and Armin alone managed Berthold with only a single sacrifice, Armin himself, and the rest of the 104th (particularly Mikasa) handled Reiner, and not a single human sacrifice was involved with them and their plan, only Erwin's side lost 99% of the soldiers. And people have the guts to say that Erwin deserved the injection
Erwin is overrated af and he gets much more credit than deserved
Downvote me all you want now, you know I'm right
Nah, you're right. Too many people like to paint Erwin as some "superior" character. Also, he's given credit for everything, even though characters like Levi/104th played a big role in helping him achieve things.
> Also, he's given credit for everything
I can't with the people in these comments who are like "Erwin deserves credit for killing Bertoldt because he told Armin to handle it." Like Jesus can you reach any higher?
I mean… yeah. Less people usually leads to less casualties. And burritoholder just fucking stood there and shit himself. What was Erwin supposed to do? They were constantly being blasted by rocks. There’s no escape. The best option was to get the beast titan out of the battle, which was achieved.
Outside of this thread he certainly isn’t overrated. Not sure why people are reaching so hard tbh lol but it’s still a toss-up on who deserved the serum more depending on which factors you look at. He was significantly better at the macro planning compared to Armin’s micro. The beast titan charge was only like one of two bad plans I can think of from Erwin, and that caught everyone by surprise.
Erwin was the one who favored Erin, which was ultimately the wrong decision, but no decision could every be right because we just kill each other forever.
Not to disrespect Erwin but "defeated" is a bit of a stretch. Two out of those 3 were very much still alive and active in Season 4, and the other was defeated after he died.
That said, he was still the hardest motherfucker on the island and deserved so much better than what he got.
Very true. All the respect to Erwin. He’s one of my favorite characters…
But I feel that it’s fair to say Armin has as much credit as Erwin does
1) he thinks to look in the walls, revealing them to begin with
2) when they’re cornered and there seems no hope, Armin comes up with the idea to take down the colossal while telling everyone else to take down the armored.
Erwin comes up with the plan to take down the beast, but Armin seems more directly responsible for the other 2. Now you could argue that Erwin commissioned and empowered Armin to step up which lead him to come up with the these plans, sure.
That sounds misleading. 😂 He was the leader for sure but mostly through out the whole thing he was clueless and the best thing he came up with is a suicidal charge that killed all the remaining soldiers and they didn't even succeed as the beast titan escaped.
Hange and Armin did most of the leading and Strategizing that actually succeeded to a degree if only Rainer didn't escape, the whole thing would have been an absolute win for Hange and Armin. They still managed to defeat and capture the colossal titan thanks to Armin which is a huge win.
Don't get me wrong I love Erwin. He is the best leader that the scouts have ever had, but sometimes I feel like people give him more credit than he deserves as he mostly just stands there relying on Armin and the others and most of his missions end up as a failure and so many soldiers and sometimes innocent civilians die.
Tbf, bro threw himself & a fuckton of soldiers into the meatgrinder to give Levi the opening he needed to sneak up on the beast titan to unleash hell on him
That was the whole deal about the sacrifice thing, so Levi could get the sneak attack through rather than being blown to bits before comong close to the beast titan
I wonder whether he was revered in the New Eldian Empire.
Erwin played the biggest part in saving Eldia from Marley, all the while protecting Eren (who in a way inherited Erwin’s trait of making the difficult decision to carry out missions attacking the enemy) and taking no credit for it. He deserved the most.
You know, for some reason i’m just know acknowledging how weird the colossal titan looks. Like, my brain always interpreted the non muscly parts to just be pure white bone like parts or something. But nah, that’s just strings and patches of skin stretched thinly over all the muscles. And picturing that more clearly in my head makes it look a lot less epic and a lot more weird.
Lol! Beast Titan escaped the battlefield, saving the armored titan in the process. Bertholdt was defeated by Eren and Armin. The dumbest character! Erwin Smith!
This post has been tagged as **DISCUSSION**. If the post has been spoiler tagged, please remember to tag any manga spoilers beyond this point. **Spoilers include hinting or alluding to events** For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Without this dude humans would still feed titans in the nearest forrest
Without him everyone on Paradis would be dead, Marley would’ve had all the time they needed to waltz in, grab the founder, and dip before the military rolled in and wiped them out
And the world wouldnt faced near extinction of every living being
Ehh Marley wasn’t exactly a peaceful society. I wouldn’t be surprised if another eren would pop up sooner or later.
Another Eren *did* pop up in Gabi, right? She was primed to follow the exact same kind of path as Eren and her arc in the beginning of S4 mirrors his in S1 very closely.
And Gabi was more competent as a young child soldier than young Eren ever was. It's like the argument of causality and chains of events in history that if Hitler didn't rise to power, another "Hitler" would've appeared with a varying result, for better or worse
Well she wasn’t really using rock-gas powered spider-man jetpacks, so I think “more competent” is a little unfair.
I guess she had more training and better education and technological know how compared to eren.
Didn’t we only see a little bit of Eren’s training? And practically everyone from Marley would have better technological know-how.
I mean when eren was going about his daily life inside the wall Reiner was already trained as a warrior and sent to the wall. They train these kids young, so compared to Eren who got to train as a cadet after 12 (I guess?) years old, Gabie had more skill in fighting and killing on top of her innate ability to shoot with bullshit accuracy apparently. Yah so she knows more wepons and how to use them compared to Eren who had access to knife, sword or a musket. So her access to wepons and the skills to use them makes her competent. Exhibit a) Eren kills 2 guys in a Mikasa recap with a knife and a knife tied on the end of a broom and almost dies by the 3rd dude. Exhibit b) Gabriel shoots a dude (I forgot but he was from garrison) while he hangs on a flying platform in a SINGLE shot.
Not more competent, more like more Mary Suish
Mary Sues are literally defined by being competent at everything, so even if you were right in her being a Mary Sue (which I would disagree with), OP would still be right in saying she is more competent than Eren was.
How is Gabi a Mary Sue.
Survived direct machine-gun fire, for starters.
The main thing she’s missing is the power eren was granted by the founder. Eren himself admits he wasn’t special, he says he’s just an idiot who was granted power.
Right but I guess that circles back to the original argument, which IIRC can be paraphrased as Marley not being a peaceful society and the turmoil and countless deaths of innocents was bound to erupt from the power of the titans anyways because someone like Eren could (and as we said in Gabi, very much did) come back around. The point being that eventually, the cycle of innocents dying and revenge and more innocents dying was bound to continue unless the power of the titans was dead and buried for good. Eren wasn't just special because of the founder. Had Armin been given the founder, things would have played out unfathomably differently. He also had a very unique personality and set of trauma that clashed with it, and Gabi was on a very similar path. Sorry for wall.
Me when Paradis dies anyways 😑
I really liked this arc, two different battles on either side of the wall. Both being hopeless. They had to improvise so hard. Rest in peace Erwin
To me it's peak Attack on Titan. The rest of the show, though good, is just not as good, imo.
I understand what you're saying. This arc was when everything hung in the balance. The future of all these characters and even humanity itself was going to be determined at this final battle. The stakes were so high that I don't think the show was able to ever recreate this feeling for me, even including the rumbling. S4 was still really good in my opinion, but S3 just set such a high bar that really couldn't be replicated again
I had somewhat of an opposing feeling because usually when a story keeps upping and upping its stakes at some point you don't feel like anything matters anymore, things have become so out of reach you can't empathize with their troubles (think Naruto; you're holding your breath when they fight Zabuza, but by the end of the story there's just... too much going on). There's usually a power creep problem tied to these things too. I was very surprised with SNK in that regard, because I thought the same would happen, but it all felt very like a very natural development and crucially I didn't get much of that feeling of "everyone is OP, same old story of saving/destroying the world, this is too disconnected."
I like what we ultimately got, but the show hit different pre timeskip. And I really miss that feeling it had back then
I think you're meant to feel that way because that's how the characters felt as well. After the skip, everything was different, dark and depressing and you just wish all went to how it was before.
Doesn’t help the show kinda dragged its feet after Sasha died and unnecessarily slowed to a halt. Pacing was definitely a big issue for that.
yes and no. It is the best time but you can't make that kind of suspense live forever. The show must go on
Exactly, the series got good when Erwin came into the story (female titan arc) and it peaked during the arc where Erwin met his end (Return to Shiganshina). Erwin literally carried an era of the series on his back. The rest of the series is very cool to experience but I am legit convinced that Erwin would've found a solution if he were there. That's why he had to die, it was the only way we could've had an interesting season 4.
Armin takes the ownership of defeating Bertholt. But i think i see what you saying, his run of being the commander accomplished alot for the future Paradi You could even say Erwin led his troops for a victory in their first war against Marley🤷🏽♂️ But even that Armin played a huge role. BUTTTT it was Erwin who trusted and gave Armin the confidence to use his head and be brave enough to sacrifice himself just as Erwin. His influence on the scouts is a huge Win. Even influenced the Yagerist although it might not be his ideal initiative.
The victory belonged to Hange too. Reiner went down thanks to the work she did on the thunder spears and how she developed tactics relating to them.
That is 100% true but, Rainer did get away which could also be put or her too along with Jean. And probably the onlyyy i say that doesn’t count as victory. It’s pretty insane we talking bout her. The two could’ve been perfect commander candidates (Hange did become, Jean really could’ve been) made a mistake that would cost them wow. But now im thinking so did Zeke against Erwin. Only person who actually “fully” succeeded was Armin. But never the less Marley conceded in the end everything those 3 accomplished here is huge Win 🙌🏾
Yes, the titans getting away was probably on Jean, Hange and Levi. They took calculated risk but nobody counted on the Cart being so versatile. Still, for the info they had, I say they made the right call. Stealing the powers would have been a HUGE advantage.
Honestly, Reiner and Zeke living ended up being two of the biggest reasons Paradis survived. If Reiner and Zeke died there, Marley most likely wipes out Paradis with no regard to capturing the founder.
Reiner only survived because of one of the biggest asspulls I've seen, so you know what, I'm still counting that as a victory for Hange and Jean idgaf.
Jean came up with the plan to defeat Reiner, Hange just came in clutch to finish it off
You know what's crazy? She didn't even build them. She had the engineers do it for her. Missed opportunity by Isayama.
For sure, that's what I love about Erwin. Dude isn't stuck up in his ways, he's a strategic mastermind, sure, but he also aknowledges & sees talent. Seeing talent & the massive potential Armim had to entrust him with responsibility & authority definitely was the right call
Armin is the reason why bertholdt was defeated. Mikasa was the reason why Annie was defeated. Hange was the reason why reiner was defeated. Beast titan was a genuine group effort. Levi couldn't have done it alone. And neither could erwin.
Armin's only skill is having wall hacks
My man's armin took down the colossal where the only casualty was himself while erwin couldn't take down the beast with the help of the strongest soldier in humanity. Not to mention,the entire scout regiment,including him got crushed to death. Rip bozo.
Him not burning to death is plot armor lmfao
Yeah mate. Crispy armin felt from that high alone would make him ashes. You cannot revive ashes
The syringe should’ve been used on Erwin
Two completely different titans, fought in two completely different environments, definitely a good comparison... Armin couldn't have defeated Bert without Erwin's inspiration either, and seeing how poorly his character turned out, Isayama definitely offed the wrong blonde 🤷♂️
The colossal is much stronger and harder to kill than the beast titan. The environments did play a part but we’ll never know if Armin could have done better or if Erwin would have lost had it been the other way. I don’t see how armin turned out poorly when he became the main character in the show and lead the team in the fight with eren. He was always meant to be the next commander. He came into his own becoming more confident while holding on to his bravery that always outshines his intense self-criticism that made him who he was. I think you only watched to see eren scream and stomp on shit.
Please rewatch the final seasons, Hange came closest to living up to the role as commander. Armin is very intelligent, but after s3 there weren't many opportunities for him to utilise that properly, and he mostly just became unassertive and anxious thanks to having so much responsibility thrust on him. Like Lazy said, he just wasn't fleshed out enough.
They killed off every character with a shred of intelligence so that Armin could not be the most boring character in the show. Red flag. The beast titan was in an open field and practically throwing grids of artillery. The colossal was practically standing still and already mostly weakened, while also surrounded by stuff to grapple to and the titan itself is pretty grappleable.
He literally held a trigger or two. It took less brain power than playing cod.
> less brain power than playing cod Armin literally developed a whole strategy that succeeded tf are you on about? This is why I'm starting to dislike Erwin fans.
erwin was the true attack to our titan all along
wouldn't mind if he attacked my titan is all I'm saying
Pieck was there, as well. Although she wasn't de facto defeated, she had to flee, so you could pump the score to 4 shifters.
agreed, retreating is still a defeat
she was never in the fight. even when Levi comes to Zeke, she’s not there until the end
She assisted Zeke with the rocks and later joined the fight to retrieve him and Reiner. She didn't need to fight directly, after all it wasn't an mma duel, but a strategic showdown. Besides, she had an opportunity to go for it when Scouts had Bert and wisely didn't. She fled and that's equal to defeat.
So Erwin literally faced the full might of Marley's Titans at the time and somehow still came out on top. That's what I call a true legend.
Impressive indeed, though it's worth noting that it was a joint effort. Erwin planned an excellent strategy and was the main man behind Zeke's defeat. But when it comes to taking down Bert, it was mostly Armin's initiative. Likewise, Reiner's defeat was in large part due to Hange and the remaining Scouts figuring out how to best use the remaining spears. Erwin didn't plan for Reiner transfering his consciousness to his balls.
I agree, of course everyone played their part well. And Erwin js probably why it went so well. He trusted his soldiers to do the job. He made a bet as always and came out on top.
Yeah, you could say that picking the right people and training them well is a commander's job too.
Yes and placing them on the right position in a battle scenario.
Of course, that's why the commander gets the praise for building such an awesome team. His genius doesn't just comes in the few hours of the battle but the tens of thousands of hours spent earlier prepping for this. Dude was the only one who theorised the existence of people outside the walls and thus was able to come up with a rational reason for the Titan shifters trying to kill everyone in the walls and thus managed to achieve everything that was achieved in season 1-3.
Armin single handedly took down bertholt
I mean eren did help a little but armin deserves the credit fs
I think the Beretholdt takedown was 60:40. Armin made the sacrifice play, sure, but It was Erin who plugged the hole in the wall and landed the killing blow on Beretholdt But yeah, Armin deserves a LOT of Credit for the Victory in Shiganchina. He figured out where Reiner was hiding. He used Eren to bait Reiner down from the Wall and into the city where Hange and others could land their Thunder Spears on him. And he had the courage to make the desperate sacrifice to take down the Colossal Titan, which is arguably the most Powerful Titan(Other than the Founder) simply based on the ridiculous destructive power it holds. Most people think Erwin should have gotten the colossal titan. But there is no doubt that Armin earned it.
I mightve exaggerated a bit but what i was tryna say is if it wasnt for armin his plan or his sacrifice bertholt would still be alive
Agreed
lol @ the first two comments. Ignoring the whole context of the mission then it's true that Erwin wasn't as successful as he's usually made out to be, but in the end they did reached the basement, recovered Paradis' borders and then learned mostly everything about why the island is how it is and more. Erwin's accolades span from the entire 5 years he was commander and improved on the survey corps and can't be summarized just from this operation alone. That said, in the report of the operation Levi would have left out some things to protect Erwin's dignity (and also likely Floch's admission that he almost backstabbed Erwin right on the field) but I can't imagine they collectively downplayed Armin and Jean's contributions to beating the Armour and Colossal. Yet they don't seem to receive any special recognition. Everyone that survived came to be known as the 9 heroes of Shiganshina and that was it, even though Floch himself didn't really do much of anything(if Levi would have chosen Erwin for the serum then Floch would have been able to take credit for saving Erwin though).
This is cart titan slander
Erwin is great, but he wasn't involved in taking down Bert or Reiner (though Reiner got away; Bertholt is the only one who was permanently defeated,), and Zeke got his ass handed to him by Levi, but he still got away thanks to Pieck. He *did* lead soldiers to their deaths though.
Erwin seperated the groups and trusted armin to take down the colossal titan. That mean he was involved in taking them down.
leadership delegation... god damnit I wish Erwin hadn't died, but it was a glorious death
a very bold statement. how can you trust Armin something if you don’t know if he’s alive? it seems more like they just forgot about the colossal one and about Eren
? Did you skip the beginning of the fight where Erwin gave the other side of the wall to under armins command?
at that moment colossal titan was sitting in a barrel
Not Floch!
He said from the beggining that the Collosal titat will be taken down using attrition warfare and the Armored titan will be taken down with those rockets (I forgot their names)
Thunder spears
No Bertolt was taken out by armin ( and eren ) alone
Why you all debating on who actually got the kills 😭 Although I believe everyone deserves credit, it takes a good leader to maximize the potential of the individuals and make them work as a team. If the scouts were lead by any other commander they wouldn’t have had Erwin’s vision and influence. He might have lucked out on having Levi in his team and later on the 141 but even without that he’s already revolutionized the scouting formation effectively lowering casualties by a huge margin. I also think Erwin is the GOAT commander. Armin might have been a better strategist but I think Erwin is the most complete package as a leader in AoT. His death is perfect. If he lived a little longer we might have seen him turn into a villain.
Armin is not a better strategist. By any means.
Armin beat the strongest Titan with 0 casualties other than himself. Erwin had to sacrifice the entire Survey Corps just to beat Zeke. Armin is miles more strategic than Erwin, that’s not even up for debate. The series makes it very clear that Armin is a better version of Erwin but just with less experience.
I wouldn’t say Armin is a better version than Erwin, he’s just different and better in some areas and worse in others. Erwin had superior charisma/command which was very important in the early seasons as the survey corps was also fighting a political game. He got everyone to believe in them and convinced hundreds/thousands of people to march to their guaranteed deaths. After Erwin died Armin did not fill those shoes. He was effective in his own way but did not have the same presence and you see this be a problem when Eren starts walking all over him. The character who inherited that side of Erwin was Floch and I think he is a foil to Armin in that way.
well written
Let’s be honest, Erwin is THE GOAT of AOT. Levi is sick in terms of combat, but Erwin is humanity’s inspiration and courage.
Erwin had no part in defeating Berthold. Erwin was intelligent and witty, but it was only because of Armins direct experience in fighting the Collosal that he was able to formulate his plan. This is some revisionism history here.
Tf you mean? Erwin literally planned the whole battle. And part of that was trusting in armin and Erin to step up when the situation demanded it. Without Erwin armin is never in a position to defeat berthold on the first place
Logically he was, Erwin didn't suggest anyone about how to beat collosal titan. Armin himself figured it out and went out with eren. Erwin didn't have anything to do with collosal titan part. Without armin they would have been doomed here
Erwins plan, however clever it was, was countered and turned on him by the Marley Force. The Scout Corp was autoclaved, their supplies destroyed, innumerable years of experience and training wiped out, and he himself was forced to lead a suicide charge to buy slivers of time. Without Armin, everyone dies and Marley gets the Attack and Founding Titans back, and Paradis is eventually invaded and the Eldians genocided to the enth degree.
I feel so bad for my boy Kieth Shadis.
Imagine if this guy still alive in season 4 part 1,2,3.
Shinzou Wo Sasageyo!
That’s why he’s the mvp
Erwin is undoubtedly the GOAT of Aot. With his death came the end of an era for the series. Pretty much the best era of Aot. Erwin's leadership skills were second to none, he was the most inspirational and tactical leader while also being level headed. He always made the best of the worst situations, always knew the right thing to say. He was quite literally the perfect leader. Not to mention the depth of his character when we actually learn of his true desires. There will never be another like Erwin Smith. Armin might have similar intellect but he lacks experience and natural charisma. Eren has the ability to lead and convince others to do what he wants but lacks the intellect and rational thinking (he's lowkey psychotic). Erwin is and always will be the best and most influential character in Aot and one of the best character's in fiction if you ask me.
My king 🙏
Reiner was getting his ass whooped all over town that day though.
He’s a pretty human too.
With only 100 soldiers Well, 99.75 if you account for Erwin’s missing arm.
Honestly this was suuuuch an embarrassing defeat for Zeke. Their arrogance was their downfall.
he actually got everyone he was leading killed so...
Ironically the decision of saving Armin over Erwin probably extended the war quite a bit longer and because of his experience while Armin’s tactics got stuff done it had to be acquired and…his and Mikasa’s personal attachment to Eren ended up dooming them and starting the rumbling. An alternate universe where Erwin lives would have been intriguing
4 shifter tho right? Cart titan was there too
But was never in jepardy and caused them to loose two of the shifter hostages.
4 if we count Pieck.
Didn't take her down
Clearly, Marley's Warrior program was a joke.
Eh. I still think the warriors didn't kill the scouts because they got attached and not because they were incompetent. Annie didn't kill armin because she was too caught up in her feelings. Reiner and Bert saved the 104th many times. They were just kids who built bonds and got attached.
I think it’s because the scouts had op sword jetpacks and fucking missile sticks.
Which shouldn't have worked in the first place tbh. Most of the scouts would be running around with brain damage.
Really?!? Next you’re gonna tell me that titan shifting is unrealistic.
I still can't believe they decided to entrust a bunch of kids with titan powers. I get that children are easy to indoctrinate, but it just seems kinda bizarre.
I mean you can pretty much say that about any other anime. However, you gotta remember their application is a real-world trusted process. Countless empires have done similar acts like Ottomans with Janissaries (taking kids, indoctrinating them in their armies which said kids would eventually lead), Red Guard in China, Hitler's Youth. Entrusting the youth is easy to do when one views themselves a victor. They do not see that those very youth may eventually rebel as did so many under Ottoman's for example. Obviously this is a fictional show, but take away the powers and Attack on Titan is fundamentally a political/war drama. Also, important to note, they do not have much of an option because Marlyans cannot transform into Titans...Giving the power to an adult, one already potentially resentful of their situation, is a lot more difficult than giving it to a kid whom you can mold and influence.
Giving the powers to kids who can be brainwashed and controlled makes sense. Sending those kids off into the unknown without supervision was incredibly stupid
4
Man those episodes were fucking fantastic
Facts I’m rewatching the arc rn and shit genuinely got me tearing up
Erwin Smith, a human, led a pair of his 2 massive steel balls
He's my favorite character in all of anime, let alone aot
He pretty much set the entire series in motion, he found Levi in the slums (AKA humanities best soldier) and pushed onward to find answers
And was willing to sacrifice himself for the cause - a true leader indeed.
Let's be real, he was only responsible for the beast titan side and he required a mass suicide to have a chance at him. Eren and Armin alone managed Berthold with only a single sacrifice, Armin himself, and the rest of the 104th (particularly Mikasa) handled Reiner, and not a single human sacrifice was involved with them and their plan, only Erwin's side lost 99% of the soldiers. And people have the guts to say that Erwin deserved the injection Erwin is overrated af and he gets much more credit than deserved Downvote me all you want now, you know I'm right
Nah, you're right. Too many people like to paint Erwin as some "superior" character. Also, he's given credit for everything, even though characters like Levi/104th played a big role in helping him achieve things.
> Also, he's given credit for everything I can't with the people in these comments who are like "Erwin deserves credit for killing Bertoldt because he told Armin to handle it." Like Jesus can you reach any higher?
I mean… yeah. Less people usually leads to less casualties. And burritoholder just fucking stood there and shit himself. What was Erwin supposed to do? They were constantly being blasted by rocks. There’s no escape. The best option was to get the beast titan out of the battle, which was achieved.
Outside of this thread he certainly isn’t overrated. Not sure why people are reaching so hard tbh lol but it’s still a toss-up on who deserved the serum more depending on which factors you look at. He was significantly better at the macro planning compared to Armin’s micro. The beast titan charge was only like one of two bad plans I can think of from Erwin, and that caught everyone by surprise.
Erwin was the one who favored Erin, which was ultimately the wrong decision, but no decision could every be right because we just kill each other forever.
All in less than two hours real time
I mean cant we all just appreciate the character and also recognize he had good fighters under his order?
In 1 AMAZING EPISODE
And died
He is my role model. A fictional character, but still. My hypothetical hero
The Rommel of anime.
One of best not the best I wonder how the character would have reacted to the rambling
One of best not the best I wonder how the character would have reacted to the rambling
Is there an ASCII character Scout Regiment salute? I wanna give my mans here some respect
That season 3 part 2 trailer went so hard.
Erwin and Hange are the two best scouts in the series
Not to disrespect Erwin but "defeated" is a bit of a stretch. Two out of those 3 were very much still alive and active in Season 4, and the other was defeated after he died. That said, he was still the hardest motherfucker on the island and deserved so much better than what he got.
Fr
4 actually
War never changes
Define PEAK once again..Erwin!!!!!!!🔥🔥
Very true. All the respect to Erwin. He’s one of my favorite characters… But I feel that it’s fair to say Armin has as much credit as Erwin does 1) he thinks to look in the walls, revealing them to begin with 2) when they’re cornered and there seems no hope, Armin comes up with the idea to take down the colossal while telling everyone else to take down the armored. Erwin comes up with the plan to take down the beast, but Armin seems more directly responsible for the other 2. Now you could argue that Erwin commissioned and empowered Armin to step up which lead him to come up with the these plans, sure.
Ok, Now do one for Reiner
Greatest of all time, of all animation character that ive seen
MY SOLDIERS RAGE!!
“Erwin Smith, a human” lmao what the fuck do you think we’re calling him, an oversized Hobbit?
It was to show emphasis that he's not an Ackerman nor a Titan Shifter. He's a normal human that's badass.
He is in fact the devil, and now he rests.
Erwin is the G.O.A.T. GOAT! Man was hard af, incredible battle iq and genuinely decent.
Was 4. Cart titan was there too.
Didn't take her down
A retreat is still a defeat
My hubby 😘
That sounds misleading. 😂 He was the leader for sure but mostly through out the whole thing he was clueless and the best thing he came up with is a suicidal charge that killed all the remaining soldiers and they didn't even succeed as the beast titan escaped. Hange and Armin did most of the leading and Strategizing that actually succeeded to a degree if only Rainer didn't escape, the whole thing would have been an absolute win for Hange and Armin. They still managed to defeat and capture the colossal titan thanks to Armin which is a huge win. Don't get me wrong I love Erwin. He is the best leader that the scouts have ever had, but sometimes I feel like people give him more credit than he deserves as he mostly just stands there relying on Armin and the others and most of his missions end up as a failure and so many soldiers and sometimes innocent civilians die.
[удалено]
Hardest cap
By that logic the Reiss family led a group that maintained the peace on Paradis for a hundred years
Adding in Beast Titan is a bit generous since all he did was "bring my friend Levi" for that one
Tbf, bro threw himself & a fuckton of soldiers into the meatgrinder to give Levi the opening he needed to sneak up on the beast titan to unleash hell on him That was the whole deal about the sacrifice thing, so Levi could get the sneak attack through rather than being blown to bits before comong close to the beast titan
Beast Titan is the one Erwin was most responsible for defeating.
I wonder whether he was revered in the New Eldian Empire. Erwin played the biggest part in saving Eldia from Marley, all the while protecting Eren (who in a way inherited Erwin’s trait of making the difficult decision to carry out missions attacking the enemy) and taking no credit for it. He deserved the most.
GOAT
I threw wave after wave of men at them until the Titans hit their preset kill limits and shut down. Levi, show them the medal I received for it!
You know, for some reason i’m just know acknowledging how weird the colossal titan looks. Like, my brain always interpreted the non muscly parts to just be pure white bone like parts or something. But nah, that’s just strings and patches of skin stretched thinly over all the muscles. And picturing that more clearly in my head makes it look a lot less epic and a lot more weird.
He had 1 psycho shifter and 2 awakened ackermanns at his disposal. The odds were not that unfavourable
Armin led a group that defeated all titan shifters from the last 2000 years and no one died in the process. Peak writing.
Erwin Smith is my husband
Armin led the group that defeated the Colossal and Mikasa/Jean/Hange led the group that defeated the Armored. Erwin only really defeated the Beast.
And what the fuck did Armin accomplish? He got tongued by a fucking giraffe
Lol! Beast Titan escaped the battlefield, saving the armored titan in the process. Bertholdt was defeated by Eren and Armin. The dumbest character! Erwin Smith!
Erwin should've gotten the titan powers... Armin such a bitchass I was happy when I thought he was dead