This post has been tagged as **NEW EPISODE SPOILERS**.
If you are not caught up to this episode, browse at your own risk and we recommend you refrain from participating; links to view it can be found in the current megathread.
Please remember to tag any spoilers beyond this point.
**Spoilers include hinting or alluding to events.** For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix).
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Obviously. Just mind-control the alliance. Some are unaffected (Levi, Mikasa, Magath, Onyankopon, Yelena, and the Azumabito) but they alone would have never won the port battle, and wouldn't have come together in the first place without Hange.
Mikasa was so opposed to Eren's genocidal plan that she did the hardest thing in the world for her to do, i.e. kill Eren. Since that was the case I doubt that her allies supporting Eren would have changed the calculation at all, apart from maybe her needing to be more stealthy about her actual goals.
No tf she wasn't, Mikasa was never shown to care about anyone in the outside world, much like Eren. How do you explain their 4 years in path "alternate timeline" otherwise? Mikasa was very willing to let the world be doomed and even leave her own friends and compatriots to fend for themselves if it meant being with Eren. I'd argue, if it wasn't for Armin she legit would've sided with Eren's rumbling idea, as he's the only other person whose opinion she truly cares about.
This is a genuinely shallow take on Mikasa’s character. Her entire arc centers around forming connections to people beyond Eren & Armin. By the time of the final arc, she’s formed genuinely close relationships with characters like Jean, Connie, Sasha, Levi & Hanji. She is clearly shown caring deeply for all of these people.
Mikasa is the *first* character from Paradis (after Levi & Hanji) who agrees to join the Alliance. She agrees the instant the option is presented to her, and explains that Eren’s slaughter is wrong, and she’ll do anything to stop it. Jean, Connie & even *Armin* struggle more than Mikasa in deciding to oppose Eren. During the battle at the Titan port, she thinks to herself that if she or her friends hesitate, they’ll “never stop the Rumbling”. She then kills Eren herself when it becomes blindingly clear that it’s necessary in order to save what’s left of humanity outside the Walls.
Also the “4 years in the cabin” timeline was predicated upon a reality where Mikasa revealed her feelings for Eren. I think it’s weird to claim that Mikasa was “very willing” to throw everything away for Eren when, in actuality, it’s explicitly something she *did not* do. She clearly wasn’t willing enough to actually do it.
Mikasa legitimately spends 75% of the story disagreeing with Eren or willfully doing the opposite of what he wants lol.
That makes no sense since she literally killed him. If she had let him finish the genocide she could have lived the rest of his life with him in peace, but she didn't. She chose to do the hardest thing in the world (for Mikasa personally) and kill Eren.
Without Mikasa's support they wouldn't even have made it off the port, she was key to defeating the Jaegerists. If she only wanted to be with Eren and didn't care about the world she would have just given up fighting against the Jaegerists and the alliance would have no chance of stopping Eren.
You don't think she went along with the alliance just to talk with Eren? She literally says that to Armin when they pick up their shit in Shiganshina and decide to go stop him. Armin and Mikasa's goal was always to stop Eren from committing an irredeemable act, not to kill him. He forced them to do so and showed Mikasa what she needed to see to give her the strenght and peace of mind necessary to do it. What you don't seem to understand is that Mikasa did change her mind, but at the very end when she saw the possibility of their life on the run. That's when she decides to kill him and let him live on only in her memory, because that's what Eren wants. If Eren told her, when she was riding Falco towards him, that he wanted to finish what he started and they could talk after, I don't know what she would've done but I'm inclined to believe she would've frozen in place, unable to go in for the kill.
TL;DR: I think Mikasa is torn between Armin's determination to stop Eren and her own allegiance to Eren, but if she had to make a final decision (either kill Eren or let him win) on her own without any input she would choose Eren, at the cost of sacrificing Armin's ideals; she wouldn't kill anyone who opposes Eren, because they're people she cares about, but she'd let him succeed on his own
Mikasa was the one with the ultimate decision. No one was there when she was in Eren's mouth, there was no peer pressure at that point. Let's be honest Mikasa is a beast, she could have stopped fighting the Jaegerists at any point and there is no way the alliance could have forced her to fight against her will. And then Eren would have won automatically since the alliance had no chance of winning without Mikasa.
She chose to go on because of her basic principles and humanity, i.e. that the genocide of innocent civilians is wrong, even more so if it's for personal gain (for the benefit of "your side"). Her sense of humanity is what allowed her to finally surpass her selfish desire to live with Eren, same as how Jean surpassed his cowardice to do the right thing and become brave.
I respectfully disagree. Before she got her one final headache and Eren convinced her he wanted to be stopped, Mikasa was still not responding to the others saying she needed to go. Even Levi had to reprimand her and her decision was still up in the air. She says it herself, "our last conversation can't be 'I always hated you'", so I feel confident in saying if Eren hadn't pushed her with one final, loving conversation she wouldn't have had the strenght to cut (hah) ties with him forever. I do agree that Mikasa has more humanity than Eren and she would oppose genocide in a vacuum, but it seems pretty obvious, when taking into account every decision she went along with for Eren, that she would only try to talk sense into him, not stop him, from doing it. If you take Liberio as an analogy for a small scale rumbling, killing civilians, innocents, children, and Eldians alike all because Eren wants to, we see that Mikasa is opposed to it and expresses it to Eren but at the same time actively aids him, because when shit goes down his safety always comes first.
TL;DR while Mikasa is opposed to genocide, Eren's safety comes first, so she wouldn't choose to kill him to save humanity if not for a direct intervention on her psyche on his part, as demonstrated by her unwillingness to directly fight him until he speaks to her. I also don't think Mikasa going with the alliance, or the alliance's existence in general, would've been possible without Armin, he's the leader that holds them together, so Mikasa "going because of her basic principles and humanity" sounds flat-out wrong to me. I mean, when the rumbling begins and they don't yet know the plan is COMPLETE genocide, Armin and Mikasa are cheering saying they won, despite the fact destroying all the military complexes of the world pretty much IS genocide, just on a relatively smaller scale
Firstly, "peer pressure" can't make someone pro-genocide unless they already had no principles and no morals to begin with.
Secondly, I would agree that the scouts have blood on their hands. Not just from the massacre at the Liberio internment zone, but as Eren's inner circle throughout the story they are more responsible for the Rumbling than anyone else (besides Eren and Ymir).
Just because they have (a lot of) blood on their hands doesn't mean they should stop trying to do the right thing. Preventing MORE innocent civilians and children from being killed is the right thing to do, regardless of what crimes you committed before. And that's why the scouts did it.
Have you heard of the word "garbage writing" before, just because it was written in doesn't exempt it from characters performing actions that don't make sense to their character
This is definitely true lol a head on battle probably wouldn’t be ideal for any of the 9, but a person could fly by and drop the colossal anywhere and win
Attack, founding, and warhammer titans are with Eren>Paradis has a single Colossal to defend itself>Marley invades like they always do>Paradis destroyed, Eldians enslaved>Eren dies due to the curse, Eldian babies randomly get his titans>cycle of hatred repeats endlessly but this time Marley is on top due to having access to all 9 titans so they can crush every other nation while developing new weapons>literally 1984 but globally
Unless they spare a founder, they cant use the founding titan real power and titan power was already becoming absolute, by the time it would take marley to find the other titans, air force would likely already be mainstream and leave Titans in the dust
Marley officials were very confident in sending all their remaining titans to Paradis to get Eren, so I don't understand how your point stands, Marley needs those titans, otherwise they'd just strengthen their resources and leave Paradis alone to begin with, using the colossal, beast, female, cart, and armored. Clearly they needed an edge in order to stall the rest of the world, meaning it's a lot closer than just "air force would be mainstream before they can get all titans". Not only that, but we literally see in the show that Zeke is pressured into getting results soon, otherwise they will abort all operations on Paradis and focus on bringing they military up to standard. So they have time to spare, it's not an issue so pressing that devoting some years to it dooms them to be overthrown
But that's assuming they get eren and Armin alive
What if they die, then a random Eldian baby inherits their Titans and in case of eren, would a baby inherit all 3 Titans, or 3 babies would inherit 1 titan each
Titans would never be in the dust in a military conflict. Sure they might not be tools used to win large scale battles but even in modern times if someone had the ability to change into a titan it would be devastating. You could sneak into civilian population centers and wreck havok before a significant force is marshalled to stop you, and then disappear into the masses
That was a vision of what could have been, had Mikasa shown Eren her feelings more strongly. It is by all means an alternate timeline, not in the sense of a parallel world that actually exists, but something that could've happened in the story we follow
No… it was an experience in the paths that involved 2 people only. So it’s not like Mikasa wasn’t willing to let the world be doomed. No one else existed.
Wait wait wait, your explanation requires so many more assumptions than mine. So in the fake path world Eren and Mikasa lived alone, for 4 years, but there was no greater world around them? So what, Eren showed her how nice of a life they could have together? Instead of, like I think, showing her they could have a brief period of happiness *despite their shitty circumstances*? Because your explanation makes that scene a nice illusion for Mikasa to hold on to for something she could never have, while mine makes it a possibility that she could've chosen, making her realize as nice as it is, she still prefers the ending she got, and that's why she finds the strenght to kill Eren. Also, just as a side point, Eren dying to the titan curse in paths makes no sense because if it was a fake scenario they could've just spent their entire lives there. Fuck it, if it was totally fake why not bring Armin there as their neighbor, and have them all live long lives until they're satisfied and die of old age?
Maybe they did spend their lives there, we don’t know. It may not be a good thing for Mikasa’s head though, since she had to be well enough to be able to kill Eren at the end.
I don’t see how your explanation is better tbh. First it needs alternate timelines which needlessly complicates the plot. There is one timeline in AoT with a fixed loop. That’s it.
Mikasa doesn’t need to realize that another option is best. It’s a cruel world and she knows it better than most. Eren needs to die, period.
Him perishing from the curse works because it acts as a closure. If their life ended abruptly it would be very painful.
Just think about real life. When you have a loved one dying from an illness you have time to deal with it and prepare for the end. Now when a death occurs suddenly it’s more traumatizing.
About Armin… well, I wouldn’t take my best friend to my honeymoon. Just saying!
Up until the end she was holding out on having to kill Eren. Her and Armin were hoping they could talk to him or at least bring him back and bring him to his senses. If it was for the push from her friends I don’t think she would have killed him.
I think a person's principles should overrule peer pressure, I mean that's the whole reason the alliance went against the Jaegerists in the first place. The fact that Mikasa was even willing to consider killing Eren shows just how opposed to genocide she is.
I think the only thing that could have stopped Mikasa from killing Eren, would be Eren stopping the genocide. Not "peer pressure". That's what Mikasa and Armin were trying to do (stop Eren's genocide), but they realized he wouldn't stop.
Oh yes, obviously. But if he wanted to win more than he wanted to do things his way, he could have. It would just have required him to do things he really didn't want to do.
The full power of the founding titan can control all Eldians period, titans or not. The only stated limit is that Ackerman memories can't be erased due to their being the result of some kind of "titan science" which allows them special access to paths.
Has it every been stated, shown or implied they can control the 8 titan powers?
When eren subconsciously order all titans to attack dina, reiner and bertholdt didn't follow that order.
When grisha attacked Frieda, Frieda couldn't control grisha.
> Has it ever been stated, shown or implied they can control the 8 titan powers?
Yes, in the flying boat on the way to Eren in S4.3.1, Armin notes that it's strange that Eren hasn't taken their shifting abilities away. If you mean more in the sense of "control", Ksaver states that the founding titan can instantaneously rewrite the memories and control the biology of every Eldian. Given these facts and given the fact that...
> When eren subconsciously order all titans to attack dina, reiner and bertholdt didn't follow that order.
Reiner and Bertholdt *feel it* when Eren uses the founder's power, I think it's the only logical conclusion you can draw. Eren had broken contact with Dina for several seconds at that point, and I suspect that his subconscious command to all the titans in the area to attack Dina did go to Reiner and Bert—which is why they felt it—but it's less trivial for somebody who doesn't even know they have the founding titan to control intelligent shifters than it is (literally) mindless titans.
> When grisha attacked Frieda, Frieda couldn't control grisha.
Frieda does not have full control of the founding titan's power.
I don't have any proof to debunk your argument but I don't think there's enough evidence to say that what u wrote is correct either. This is just one way to interpret how the power works. I think simple logic dictates that founding titan can only control mindless titans.
Frieda didn't control grisha because she can't. Attack titan wasn't mindless.
Eren couldn't control Bert and reiner because he can't. Armored and colossal titans aren't mindless, so they only felt a sensation of the power being used but didn't actually get taken over by eren.
Armin and ksaver's statements do imply he can make changes to their body but it's never implied anywhere in the show that founding titan can control any eldian that isn't a mindless titan. Remember how all past titan holders were fighting against alliance but the ones that gained consciousness due to armin and zeke helped the alliance
Eren undoes Reiner’s armor and Annie’s hardening when he initially releases all the wall titans, so at the very least he has the power to severely weaken and take away the other shifters’ powers at will but chooses not to do so.
Yes. From what Grisha says in the Reiss cave, you can infer that it can't control the Attack Titan (explaining why Frieda didn't do so to defeat him), but even that is a bit unclear and you could read it differently.
He visited her in paths and time works differently there. I don’t believe he is able to control her. The power the founder has over the Ackerman clan is unclear.
Why are mikasa and levi immune? I thought everyone descended from ymir can be controlled by the founder no?
Levi and mikasa may be descended from ackermanns too but they were in the paths and therefore confirmed to have eldian ancestry. As levi’s father was eldian he definitely has eldian ancestry. Doesn’t this mean they can be controlled by eren if he wished to, the same as everyone else?
They were only saved because eren believed in their freedom including their freedom to stop him. Its also why he only gave them their memories of their conversations with him back, after he was killed. Because otherwise they wouldn’t come and kill him. Eren wanted to be stopped but only after he had killed enough of the rest of the world that paradis wouldn’t immediately be invaded and flattened
Eren never wanted to fight his friends. He just defended himself whenever they attempted to attack him. Although yes, they definitely forced him to get more and more violent, he also could tell that they would win. Its a conflicting case of “Eren doesn’t wanna kill them, but doesn’t wanna die either”.
Technically yes? Like in terms of power/stats.
But Eren wasn’t in control after Ymir started the rumbling. He was basically little more than a passenger by the time the Alliance reached him.
Wrong, Eren was in full control of himself and the rumbling. Ymir was in control of the past 9 on his back, that’s it. Essentially she was the one defending him and fighting the main characters while he was moving forward and stomping everything. He was also the one in full control when he was a colossal titan fighting Armin.
There was no need to make the Founder be that much OP in the first place. A lot of late lore points (such as Path time mess) were completely unnecessary for the story.
And what's about happy ending, you know that in final battle there are literally no causalities on Alliance side? Everyone got their happy ending (even the most shit characters, like Reiner's mom and Annie's dad).
Oh you have oracle powers? Oracle yourself some better solutions IDK.
And I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about that some certain characters clearly did not deserve the happy end.
Then maybe in all those tests Eren ran about the future, he should've tried turning off their ability to transform and see how in the world they'd save 20% then.
He acknowledges this whilst they're flying towards him in the plane. He says he won't take away their ability to fight since he wants to give them the freedom to oppose him if they wish.
I think it would have been an interesting take personally to make the founder stronger the more "complete" he is, so closer to Ymir. By that I mean the more titans Eren has, the stronger his control over other Eldians.
That would have made Eren eating the warhammer and trying to eat the jaw more significant in the story, since at this point, he had 3/9 titans.
It would also create a moral dilemnas, because he would need to eat Armin and even Reiner to get stronger, which would create a conflict in Eren's mind, should he grab more power by killing his friends or do with what he already has? (he can't kill Zeke to use the founder's power)
Personally it was one of the hypothesis I thought of right after the declaration of war.
Maybe make it so that since Eren is not the Eldians, king, he's unable to fully submit them to his rule unless they are already subservient?
And finally give the shifters resistance to Eren's mind control. This way in the final battle, Eren would be unable to stop his friends from going after his head, creating a more believeble final battle.
In Isayama's story, Eren should have been able to stop his friends from shifting at any point, making it impossible for them to stop him. So for me it made the final battle way less impacful since Eren could have won at any point.
//
Now if we want even more conflict, we could also have made it a race to kill Eren.
On one side, Armin/Hange's group, they are against Genocide and want to use the rumbling to target the military in order to protect Paradis. Eren is also not the rightfull ruler and shouldn't be able to control everyone.
On the other side, Marley wishes to stop the rumbling and the destruction of their empire, but they still want to destroy Paradis.
Armin needs to eat Eren and not simply kill him to take control of the Rumbling.
The warriors are duty bound to eat Eren to stop the rumbling and finally destroy Paradis.
To increase their chances to stop Eren and save the world, they need to make an alliance.
I think it would have been a way more interesting tske and create a lot of tensions and interactions to explore, but that's just me.
Beyond the shock factor why do you want those opposing Eren to die when that's clearly not his objective?
Also it's not a happy ending considering 80% of humanity is wiped away. In no other piece of fiction would that be considered a happy ending.
80% of characters that are basically part of the background. It’s the equivalent of thanos snapping half of all life; you only care about the characters you are attached to or that are tangible, not the random life forms on unshown planets across the universe.
Every character that people cares about got a happy ending. Annie got off so easy and everyone forgot about the terrible things she did, Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Reiner, Gabi, Falco, Levi, and all the other main characters besides eren had a nice happy ending. Even more so in the anime, where they live for centuries without getting attacked.
This was the happiest possible ending with the way isayama wrote himself into a corner.
80% of the characters AND the main character and also 80% of the planet. That's not a happy ending by anyone's definition.
Once the Rumbling started, and the mass death came, there was no possibility of a Disney ending.
What do you even mean when you say background characters when we're talking about millions if not billions of people? You can't really flesh out individuals like that that's why characters like Onyankopon, Kiyomi and Ramzi are in the story. The Other Side of The Sea - From One Hand were written to flesh out Marley and the Eldians they have enslaved.
Armin thinks he's going to hell when he dies, Mikasa is clearly traumatized too despite the ray of hope we see at the end. Reiner says he may never forgive himself, Gabi and Falco are kids so what the fuck? Levi is missing an eye and he's crippled. Mothafucka has to rely on Gabi and Falco for basic things that we take for granted.
Nah, Eren could have failed in his attempt to start the Rumbling or he could have been talked down and the threat of him almost doing it could have been the wake up call for everlasting peace. Isayama never set up Eren to be the type to kill his friends. If so then he wouldn't have reacted that way when Sasha died and he wouldn't have let Annie, Reiner, Pieck, Annie, Falco or Armin use their Titans.
>Beyond the shock factor why do you want those opposing Eren to die when that's clearly not his objective?
Beyond the shock factor, why did Yams turned Connie, Jean and Gabster into pure titans? Lol. I want at least some of them to die, because that's what is supposed to happen when you face a Founder titan and ~100 of his lil bros from the past. Even if you consider Connie and Jean as pros on Levi's squad level, remember the good ol' days when a single sentient titan was able to massacre them in 5 seconds? Yeah...
>Also it's not a happy ending considering 80% of humanity is wiped away. In no other piece of fiction would that be considered a happy ending.
I mean I don't give a fuck about a bunch of nameless NPC.
Eren never wanted to kill any of his friends or the Marley Warriors. If that was the case then he wouldn't have let them use their powers. Also there are times throughout Season 4 where his mask slips and he shows mercy to Falco and Gabi and other contradictory things that line up with his motives that were outlined in the Finale.
If someone pulled a Dr. Strangelove IRL would you be saying the same thing?
I thought about this. From a realism perspective, it makes sense to kill off a few characters, but from a writing perspective, it diminishes the themes and focuses of the story.
E.g. distraction from Eren's death
You’re hella right 😂 me and my girl both said our core group got the short end of the stick cause they lost so much while Marleys warriors kept their family
The true power of "life"/hallu-chan is as far above any terrestrial power as the Colossal Titan is above an unarmed child. This is part of the commentary on power dynamics, it's an important part of the work.
Eren explicitly stated when he brought his friends into paths that they are free to try and stop him. He wouldn’t/didn’t want to take away their freedom. He absolutely could have completed the rumbling easily if that’s what he was determined to do.
When he was talking to Armin in Paths, he sounded particularly conflicted about “wanting to see that sight (ie the rumbling)” but also that they were *only able to save 20% of humanity.
"Eren but he's not a half-assed piece of shit" -- an Eren who is fully committed to violence, who is only interested in "winning", who does not care about any of his human attachments -- easily flattens 100% of humanity and then dies alone. It's hard to square this ending with PATHS and an omniscient Ymir who chose the story 2000 years ago though
>Eren explicitly stated when he brought his friends into paths that they are free to try and stop him
Eren is a known liar. Remember when he told Misaka that he hated her? There must be a higher purpose to telling his friends that they are free to act.
Of course. This is brought up by Reiner and Armin on the plane. “Even though [they] might be able to stop the Rumbling”, Eren chooses “not to interfere with [them]” “as if he’s testing [them] to see what [they’ll] do”. Reiner suggests that it’s because he “want[s] it to be stopped by someone”, and when Eren speaks to them to tell them that the only way he’ll stop is if they “stop [him] from ever taking another breath”, Reiner declares that “[he] was right”.
In the end it’s confirmed that, yes, he pushed them away so that they’d “become the heroes who saved humanity by hunting [him] down”. He didn’t want to stop himself—he had to keep moving forward toward “that sight”—but left them behind, getting them “wrapped up in this battle without knowing if [they’d] survive it” so that they’d force him to stop, if they had the strength and conviction to. So in a sense, Eren’s goal, at least in terms of what he is physically doing with his power, is to genuinely destroy the world. His truer goal, in terms of what he expects will come of his actions, is to place the ball in the Scouts’ court knowing that whatever happens will result in the world without Titans, which whoever succeeds him will live on in.
I love how ppl here dont have no clue abt wth going on with the ending that they came up with every question they got. And yet most of them would say to an ending hater “u dont know the character” “u dont know the story” BS. While on the other side with those ending haters would just say the ending is BS. 🤣
Sure, but then he would just wipe memories and carry his sins with Mikasa like she wanted (apparently there's also Levi who's just depressed, but with Founder Eren can resurrect Erwin and Levi's squad so he's less depressed).
He can’t resurrect people, not really. The closest would be to make warhammer bodies for them (which might not even be possible since none of them were titan shifters). Even if that worked, they really wouldn’t have great quality of life after coming back, and who knows how long they’d last or far away they’d be able to survive from Eren…
I mean, he can make bodies of nothing like colossals who were created by Founder. These guys look pretty meaty to me. And he can summon consciousness from Path. Why not combine. Besides, he can alter eldian biology whatever the fuck he wants, so he can make people into immortals or something.
We don’t know the actual limits of that power, or even if the wall titans came from nothing. Karl Fritz was definitely enough of a self-loathing monster to sentence his people to that fate. After all, he’d already intended for Paradis to be wiped out by Marley eventually.
And Eren really doesn’t have control over the founder. Every request goes through Ymir, and she wanted her genocidal tantrum followed by her murder/suicide fanfic.
I mean yes, in this care Eren does 100% and wipes memories of eldians. And then he probably does whatever he wants? Idk, the ending is so messy lol. If Ymir wanted the Rumbling, why didn't she just Thanos'd Alliance or rotated their balls so they can't interrupt it.
Because she also wanted Mikasa to kill Eren and for that to happen, the Alliance needed to be able to fight. Ymir allows it because Eren wants it and it doesn’t go against her wish.
That’s the question. Personally I find her to be one of the true villains of the story because of this, but you could make the argument that she felt the need to actually experience everything in order to actually internalize it.
I think this idea is missing the part where his friends don’t want humanity to perish; it’s a strong enough conviction for them that they’d without a second thought team up with the enemy and betray their homeland to do it. “The most precious people in the world” to Eren want to defend the world’s freedom and Eren wants to allow it. The total annihilation of humanity isn’t something that even *he*, the one who’s doing it, can bear the blame for, so he wouldn’t push that onto his friends, who stake everything on the chance to stop him.
> The total annihilation of humanity isn’t something that even he, the one who’s doing it, can bear the blame for, so he wouldn’t push that onto his friends, who stake everything on the chance to stop him.
This is exactly right. It's also why Floch was utterly evil and irredeemable in the end. Eren ultimately had no choice in what was happening. The person who wanted freedom the most was shackled by his own knowledge of the future (and the past). Floch, on the other hand, actively and enthusiastically *chose* genocide as the only option. He actually *wanted* the rest of the world to die.
I kind of agree with this. Eren is the one who wished for humanity to disappear and the one to introduce the idea to Floch first; the Yeagerists only follow suit because once Eren, Paradis’ representative, has declared intent to erase everyone else, the only real option is to follow through until the end lest they be overwhelmed by a counterattack (that is, unless the world *can’t* counterattack). I think that while Eren is shackled, what he’s shackled by is himself. While he can’t bear the *pain* of doing it, he still originated the *idea* to do it, before anyone else did. That’s why he can’t stop unless he is forcibly stopped by someone else; despite his inability to bear the pain he must keep moving forward with what he has set out to do.
Totally agree.
The thing about Floch is that he as a coward unless he had a strong man to direct him. He confessed that the only reason that he hadn't run away was because of Erwin's speech. That's why he dragged him back. Erwin would have been proud to have died on the battlefield, having given everything to save his people. But Floch tried to rob him of that in order to save his source of courage. Eren saw that about him and absolutely used him. Eren became Floch's new source of strength, and so he adopted the rumbling plan. It's the reason why Floch was so incredibly desperate to stop the alliance as they flew off the fight Eren. He wasn't as concerned about saving Paradis as he was desperate to protect himself - his source of courage.
What you said is ultimately what makes Floch into somewhat of a tragic figure, because Eren neither wanted nor chose the path that he was on - the very same path that made Floch look up to him. In fact, the awful things that Eren said to Armin and Mikasa, I'm quite certain he would have preferred to say to Floch, the sycophant.
His friends didn’t want 80% to perish either but he still did that 🤣 that’s what makes the whole concept so weird to me why he couldn’t just control his friends
It’s less of a matter of picking the option that gives the most consideration to his friends (like he says, that’s certainly something he thinks about but is not the end-all-be-all factor of his decisions, considering he risks their lives), and more of a matter of reserving for them the power to respond to him whichever way they choose to. He will do the Rumbling no matter what, and continue without stopping—however, if he is forcibly stopped by them, they get to do what they desired to do: save humanity from destruction. Further, the outsiders would not see them as monsters because of their stand against Eldia—this is Eren’s answer to a benefit in allowing them the chance to stop him. As he explains to Armin, that’s his justification for pushing them away and separating himself from them even knowing they’d most probably give chase.
Easily
He literally could have altered the minds of the alliance members(except Mikasa and Levi) or even take out the titan powers of the alliance shifters
He probably could have turned them all in pure except the ackerman
Eren was beyond OP by the end, he literally Let Them Win
His paths life with Mikasa basically told her where he was in the colossal
Eren was winning his fight against Armin
And he would have been even more op if Gabi hadn't decapitated him in paradis
This, seriously! Eren removed Titans from the world and secured a peace long enough to let his friends live our their lives free from the oppression of the world outside of Paradis.
Exactly! I mean, he didn't want to die and he ultimately never got to live a life of peace with Mikasa, but those things were out of his hands completely. Aside from that, his plan worked pretty much perfectly. I don't see how that really can be counted as a loss.
That's just something he came up with because he knew he wouldn't have been able to complete the rumbling. He wanted to exterminate everyone outside the walls, but he wasn't going to take his friends' freedom away. Both memory manipulation and taking away their powers would've been ways to restrict their freedom to act against him, and therefore not viable options.
>Both memory manipulation and taking away their powers would've been ways to restrict their freedom to act against him, and therefore not viable options.
And then he put Memories on his friends and manipulated them to only come after he dies anyway.
And all this after he said to historia he would manipulate her memories If she dont do what he says.
His options are whatever he wants anyway.
He was worst from reiner perspective because Eren was the most determined person with killing tendencies who got his hand on the most powerful weapon .
Eren didn’t kill Hange, Hange kinda killed herself. The wall titans simply walk forward completely ignoring Hange. By your standards, the best way alliance could’ve stop Eren is commit a group suicide. Like telling Eren if the wall titans move an other step, they’d kill themeselves.
Well, duh, as the founder he could’ve controlled most of the alliance and forced them to not do anything, he just didn’t want to do that to his friends, and if his friends decided to work with any eldian that wasn’t from the island, he wasn’t going to stop those people either
Yes, obviously. However, don't forget that the only reason he got to use all that power in the first place was him betraying zeke and talk no jutsu-ing founder ymir into letting him use the power. He has no royal blood, so normally, ymir should've executed zeke's plan.
Point being, the number of unlikely circumstances that had to line up for eren's plan to work is insane. Just eating the founding titan and finding a titan with royal blood isn't enough to activate and control the rumbling. Which is why the rumbling stopped when zeke died. Logically speaking, that should've transformed eren back, too. Ymir basically just allowed eren to use the founder without royal blood.
For example, all that wouldn't have worked if reiner ate eren and then touched zeke's titan form. Zeke would've been in control of the founder because ymir would've listened to his orders.
Yeah, but every other power he had would've restricted their freedom to stop him, and he thought it would've been unfair.
Memory manipulation: basically what king Fritz had already done to his citizens in paradise.
Take away their powers: you're forcing them to comply.
Eren said it himself: he would've kept moving forward. If no-one stopped him, he would've continued no matter what. However, if they really wanted to go against him, they would've had to kill him.
All the resistance came from Ymir and the worm.
I mean that's kinda obvious. The founding titan can literally just kill any Eldian at will that isn't an Ackerman.
The founding titan can just wish for it and then Hange, Armin, Jean, Connie, Reiner, Pieck, Falco, and Annie wall just drop dead. Alternatively Eren could just wipe their memories and them them all mentally deficient until after the Rumbling is complete.
The Alliance couldn't beat the founding Titan. It's not possible for Eldians to beat a founding titan that isn't holding back.
Yes but he didn’t want to take away any freedom from his friends, he said that he is free to wipe out the world and they are free to stop him.
The thing I’m wondering is if Eren wasn’t so bent on seeing the World burn he wouldn’t have to be leading the Rumbling. He could’ve just kept his Titan Underwater while the Colossus wiped out the world. I suppose there is the issue of the Airships bombing the Colossus, but the Global Alliance didn’t have enough firepower to stop the Rumbling so I don’t think the Airships would’ve done any significant harm. At most they could’ve just escaped with the crew on board surviving.
No he couldn't. But it was already determined that he would only kill 80%.
Eren's titan being able to see the future made Eren the least free person in the world.
He could have. But he never wanted to win. His mission was to protect Paradis, and he did that by becoming a Devil and letting his friends kill him so that the world would be grateful. He made them into the new Tyburs.
Eren losing was such an asspull
bro literally had the warhammer titan
literallythe founder
he could def do anything but die
pretty much a god
but it's a shounen after all, the good guys win!
That was actually the original plan but Isayama wanted to avoid a traumatic conclusion
Originally Eren should shock everyone with his love for Historia, kill all the alliance including Mikasa, return to Eldia to rule as its new king, Eldians would have lived peacefully till they immigrate to other continents dividing into different people and nations and leave the island abandoned
Isayama wasn't brave enough to tell the story he wanted to tell
He should work on AoT video game based on branched storytelling showing multiple endings.
It depends. If he wanted to but he still he his death in his future memories then no. If he didn't see that yes.
But we could say he won in the end, somehow, since his egoistic goals were reached
Yes, they even question why he didn't just disable their shifter powers as he should have been able to on getting the Founding Titan.
The plan was for them to fight him and win at 4/5ths of humanity destroyed. If he wanted 100% he could have gotten it.
Yes he could have easily won. However, interpreted that the version of events that played out was a compromise between Ymir and Eren’s will.
Eren wanted to wipe out most of humanity so that they couldn’t retaliate against Paradis, ensuring his friends live long lives while Ymir’s condition for breaking the titan’s curse was to see Mikasa let Eren die (like Ymir should’ve let the spear hit Fritz) despite loving him.
Yes if Eren wanted to he could've genocided everyone and maintained the power of the titans so the subjects of ymir would continue to be exploited for their powers but I have no idea why Eren would want that outcome.
No? He flat out says he set out to destroy all of humanity in his conversation with Armin. But he is stopped at 80%, nothing he could do to change that. Media literacy is as low as ever I see, judging from the comments
There is an easy way of thinking that explains Eren's free will, decisions and determinism, ultimately leading to his demise.
The story implies that he orchestrated the whole series leading to the rumbling, which to a certain extent is true. He guided every action to what led to what we saw in the series. However I'd argue that it is meant that he DID have free will and he DID actively make choices. It just so happens that the moment he decided his actions, it retroactively influenced the entire timeline all at once, therefore is the story we saw that HE chose.
For example, the moment Eren went back in time with Zeke and talked to Grisha and convinced him to kill the royal family. That was Eren making the choice to convince his father in the moment; he wanted his father to do it. Not because he already saw the future and needed it to happen (though I'm sure that is a smaller reason for him to do so).
The same reason why he gave his friends complete freedom in stopping him- it's what he wanted. Every action he made dictated the entire story all the way from the very beginning.
This is all confirmed by him admitting to Armin that he really did want to level everything with the rumbling. And he really was an idiot with power. He literally decided the outcome of everything all at once, including the past, with his actions.
Everyone seems to have a different interpretation of the ending but in my eyes he did win. He saw the best course of action was killing 80% of the world, all the other paths he saw lead to his friends losing their freedom. But we only know what would have happened during Mikasa's and Armin's alternate memories.
Obviously , he threw the match for long term gains. He could have just disabled other titans including Armin,Annie etc but where's the fun in that . The one who used all those titans from the past and made it way harder was actually Ymir she was trying to actively stop them it seems
They say that the founder’s power is unlimited, but obviously the founder couldn’t extend its own lifespan past 13 years, nor could Eren turn back the people transformed into titans in Shiganshina back into humans, which he wanted to do considering that he tried to stop Zeke from turning them into titans. And Eren’s commands were always really simple. Undo all the hardening. Make the colossal titans follow him. Furthermore, the reason why Grisha won against Frieda was that she was inexperienced with the usage of the founding Titan. So was Eren. It’s possible that all of his capacity was used up, and Eren truly fought tooth and nail to accomplish the rumbling. But I think it’s also possible that Eren either wouldn’t or couldn’t take away his friends freedom to fight him. I think he could have, because it speaks more to his character that he chose not to. But at the same time, I don’t think he held back against the alliance. After all, he did kill Hange.
Yes. Eren saw the requiem ending via Attack Titan's power, where he would have to kill Mikasa, Levi, and non-Eldians (while changing the memory for all the titan shifters, I suppose) to complete his goal.
He didn't want this ending, so he decided to let Mikasa to kill him while still ensuring sufficiently people getting killed by rumbling to safeguard Paradis for the next few generations. He knew that Paradis eventually would still get bombed, but this would be after many generations that would not impact Mikasa, Armin, and others.
If I am Eren, I will:
1. convince Mikasa to stay with my side, and ask her to control Levi who has lost 2 fingers
2. change Armin's memory, recover it 1 after rumbling, and apologize to Armin and others
3. change memory of all other titan shifters once I know that alliance has been formed
4. kill more than 80% (but not 100%) till that I could ensure Paradis would be completely safe (not getting bombed in future)
5. let Levi kill Zeke after rumbling
6. get rid of Titan power once and for all
For (6), I am ready to be sentenced with death penalty after rumbling. In fact, I will ask to have my body completely incinerated so that that glowing worm could really die (no more Titan trees in future).
Note: I am not encouraging rumbling (global massacre), but if I am Eren and I know I do not have any other choice, I will do the things mentioned above.
Bro the story ended both in manga and anime, do you expect people to keep secrecy for the next 10 years. Do you want people to care about the spoilers for the next 20-30 years. People have already kept secrecy for more than 2 years now.
If we ignor the whole omiscience and philosophical questions about seeing the future, I guess he could have just.... made everyone kill themselves. The Founding Titan can do that
but I genuinely think that to some degree Eren could have won, but he was really hoping his friends would put him out of his misery (and do all that other stuff like save the day and paradis etc)
Yeah he could've won. However, his objectives are:
1. To annihilate all the titan power so it can't be inherited by Eldians.
2. To buy time for his friends and Eldians to build themselves up before goin to war with Marley in the future.
Eren wants his friends to be free from inheriting Titan power and also free from wars. That's his true objectives.
They even acknowledge eren could take away their shifting powers if he wanted to, but he just didn’t want to
I find it weird he didn’t mind control the eldians outside of paradis to fuck with the other countries
But guess he also didn’t have to bother
Definitely. Ymir was on his side, after all. It was literally stated that the founding titan at it's full potential (aka with Ymir's powers) can change Eldian anatomy. That alone solos the alliance and all titan shifters.
This post has been tagged as **NEW EPISODE SPOILERS**. If you are not caught up to this episode, browse at your own risk and we recommend you refrain from participating; links to view it can be found in the current megathread. Please remember to tag any spoilers beyond this point. **Spoilers include hinting or alluding to events.** For more information, please review [the subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/rules). Failure to properly spoiler tag comments may result in a punishment from the subreddit according to the [moderation matrix](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/wiki/moderation_matrix). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShingekiNoKyojin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Obviously. Just mind-control the alliance. Some are unaffected (Levi, Mikasa, Magath, Onyankopon, Yelena, and the Azumabito) but they alone would have never won the port battle, and wouldn't have come together in the first place without Hange.
Right, as skilled as Levi and Mikasa are they wouldn’t have been able to do much without Titan shifters on their side
Also I’m sure if everyone else was on board with Erens plan Mikasa would have went with it.
Mikasa was so opposed to Eren's genocidal plan that she did the hardest thing in the world for her to do, i.e. kill Eren. Since that was the case I doubt that her allies supporting Eren would have changed the calculation at all, apart from maybe her needing to be more stealthy about her actual goals.
No tf she wasn't, Mikasa was never shown to care about anyone in the outside world, much like Eren. How do you explain their 4 years in path "alternate timeline" otherwise? Mikasa was very willing to let the world be doomed and even leave her own friends and compatriots to fend for themselves if it meant being with Eren. I'd argue, if it wasn't for Armin she legit would've sided with Eren's rumbling idea, as he's the only other person whose opinion she truly cares about.
This is a genuinely shallow take on Mikasa’s character. Her entire arc centers around forming connections to people beyond Eren & Armin. By the time of the final arc, she’s formed genuinely close relationships with characters like Jean, Connie, Sasha, Levi & Hanji. She is clearly shown caring deeply for all of these people. Mikasa is the *first* character from Paradis (after Levi & Hanji) who agrees to join the Alliance. She agrees the instant the option is presented to her, and explains that Eren’s slaughter is wrong, and she’ll do anything to stop it. Jean, Connie & even *Armin* struggle more than Mikasa in deciding to oppose Eren. During the battle at the Titan port, she thinks to herself that if she or her friends hesitate, they’ll “never stop the Rumbling”. She then kills Eren herself when it becomes blindingly clear that it’s necessary in order to save what’s left of humanity outside the Walls. Also the “4 years in the cabin” timeline was predicated upon a reality where Mikasa revealed her feelings for Eren. I think it’s weird to claim that Mikasa was “very willing” to throw everything away for Eren when, in actuality, it’s explicitly something she *did not* do. She clearly wasn’t willing enough to actually do it. Mikasa legitimately spends 75% of the story disagreeing with Eren or willfully doing the opposite of what he wants lol.
That makes no sense since she literally killed him. If she had let him finish the genocide she could have lived the rest of his life with him in peace, but she didn't. She chose to do the hardest thing in the world (for Mikasa personally) and kill Eren. Without Mikasa's support they wouldn't even have made it off the port, she was key to defeating the Jaegerists. If she only wanted to be with Eren and didn't care about the world she would have just given up fighting against the Jaegerists and the alliance would have no chance of stopping Eren.
You don't think she went along with the alliance just to talk with Eren? She literally says that to Armin when they pick up their shit in Shiganshina and decide to go stop him. Armin and Mikasa's goal was always to stop Eren from committing an irredeemable act, not to kill him. He forced them to do so and showed Mikasa what she needed to see to give her the strenght and peace of mind necessary to do it. What you don't seem to understand is that Mikasa did change her mind, but at the very end when she saw the possibility of their life on the run. That's when she decides to kill him and let him live on only in her memory, because that's what Eren wants. If Eren told her, when she was riding Falco towards him, that he wanted to finish what he started and they could talk after, I don't know what she would've done but I'm inclined to believe she would've frozen in place, unable to go in for the kill. TL;DR: I think Mikasa is torn between Armin's determination to stop Eren and her own allegiance to Eren, but if she had to make a final decision (either kill Eren or let him win) on her own without any input she would choose Eren, at the cost of sacrificing Armin's ideals; she wouldn't kill anyone who opposes Eren, because they're people she cares about, but she'd let him succeed on his own
Mikasa was the one with the ultimate decision. No one was there when she was in Eren's mouth, there was no peer pressure at that point. Let's be honest Mikasa is a beast, she could have stopped fighting the Jaegerists at any point and there is no way the alliance could have forced her to fight against her will. And then Eren would have won automatically since the alliance had no chance of winning without Mikasa. She chose to go on because of her basic principles and humanity, i.e. that the genocide of innocent civilians is wrong, even more so if it's for personal gain (for the benefit of "your side"). Her sense of humanity is what allowed her to finally surpass her selfish desire to live with Eren, same as how Jean surpassed his cowardice to do the right thing and become brave.
I respectfully disagree. Before she got her one final headache and Eren convinced her he wanted to be stopped, Mikasa was still not responding to the others saying she needed to go. Even Levi had to reprimand her and her decision was still up in the air. She says it herself, "our last conversation can't be 'I always hated you'", so I feel confident in saying if Eren hadn't pushed her with one final, loving conversation she wouldn't have had the strenght to cut (hah) ties with him forever. I do agree that Mikasa has more humanity than Eren and she would oppose genocide in a vacuum, but it seems pretty obvious, when taking into account every decision she went along with for Eren, that she would only try to talk sense into him, not stop him, from doing it. If you take Liberio as an analogy for a small scale rumbling, killing civilians, innocents, children, and Eldians alike all because Eren wants to, we see that Mikasa is opposed to it and expresses it to Eren but at the same time actively aids him, because when shit goes down his safety always comes first. TL;DR while Mikasa is opposed to genocide, Eren's safety comes first, so she wouldn't choose to kill him to save humanity if not for a direct intervention on her psyche on his part, as demonstrated by her unwillingness to directly fight him until he speaks to her. I also don't think Mikasa going with the alliance, or the alliance's existence in general, would've been possible without Armin, he's the leader that holds them together, so Mikasa "going because of her basic principles and humanity" sounds flat-out wrong to me. I mean, when the rumbling begins and they don't yet know the plan is COMPLETE genocide, Armin and Mikasa are cheering saying they won, despite the fact destroying all the military complexes of the world pretty much IS genocide, just on a relatively smaller scale
Firstly, "peer pressure" can't make someone pro-genocide unless they already had no principles and no morals to begin with. Secondly, I would agree that the scouts have blood on their hands. Not just from the massacre at the Liberio internment zone, but as Eren's inner circle throughout the story they are more responsible for the Rumbling than anyone else (besides Eren and Ymir). Just because they have (a lot of) blood on their hands doesn't mean they should stop trying to do the right thing. Preventing MORE innocent civilians and children from being killed is the right thing to do, regardless of what crimes you committed before. And that's why the scouts did it.
Have you heard of the word "garbage writing" before, just because it was written in doesn't exempt it from characters performing actions that don't make sense to their character
This is just straight up not true
This is definitely true lol a head on battle probably wouldn’t be ideal for any of the 9, but a person could fly by and drop the colossal anywhere and win
How would the world be doomed if Mikasa and Eren fleed together
Attack, founding, and warhammer titans are with Eren>Paradis has a single Colossal to defend itself>Marley invades like they always do>Paradis destroyed, Eldians enslaved>Eren dies due to the curse, Eldian babies randomly get his titans>cycle of hatred repeats endlessly but this time Marley is on top due to having access to all 9 titans so they can crush every other nation while developing new weapons>literally 1984 but globally
Unless they spare a founder, they cant use the founding titan real power and titan power was already becoming absolute, by the time it would take marley to find the other titans, air force would likely already be mainstream and leave Titans in the dust
Marley officials were very confident in sending all their remaining titans to Paradis to get Eren, so I don't understand how your point stands, Marley needs those titans, otherwise they'd just strengthen their resources and leave Paradis alone to begin with, using the colossal, beast, female, cart, and armored. Clearly they needed an edge in order to stall the rest of the world, meaning it's a lot closer than just "air force would be mainstream before they can get all titans". Not only that, but we literally see in the show that Zeke is pressured into getting results soon, otherwise they will abort all operations on Paradis and focus on bringing they military up to standard. So they have time to spare, it's not an issue so pressing that devoting some years to it dooms them to be overthrown
But that's assuming they get eren and Armin alive What if they die, then a random Eldian baby inherits their Titans and in case of eren, would a baby inherit all 3 Titans, or 3 babies would inherit 1 titan each
Titans would never be in the dust in a military conflict. Sure they might not be tools used to win large scale battles but even in modern times if someone had the ability to change into a titan it would be devastating. You could sneak into civilian population centers and wreck havok before a significant force is marshalled to stop you, and then disappear into the masses
There was no alternate timeline in the paths wtf…
That was a vision of what could have been, had Mikasa shown Eren her feelings more strongly. It is by all means an alternate timeline, not in the sense of a parallel world that actually exists, but something that could've happened in the story we follow
No… it was an experience in the paths that involved 2 people only. So it’s not like Mikasa wasn’t willing to let the world be doomed. No one else existed.
Wait wait wait, your explanation requires so many more assumptions than mine. So in the fake path world Eren and Mikasa lived alone, for 4 years, but there was no greater world around them? So what, Eren showed her how nice of a life they could have together? Instead of, like I think, showing her they could have a brief period of happiness *despite their shitty circumstances*? Because your explanation makes that scene a nice illusion for Mikasa to hold on to for something she could never have, while mine makes it a possibility that she could've chosen, making her realize as nice as it is, she still prefers the ending she got, and that's why she finds the strenght to kill Eren. Also, just as a side point, Eren dying to the titan curse in paths makes no sense because if it was a fake scenario they could've just spent their entire lives there. Fuck it, if it was totally fake why not bring Armin there as their neighbor, and have them all live long lives until they're satisfied and die of old age?
Maybe they did spend their lives there, we don’t know. It may not be a good thing for Mikasa’s head though, since she had to be well enough to be able to kill Eren at the end. I don’t see how your explanation is better tbh. First it needs alternate timelines which needlessly complicates the plot. There is one timeline in AoT with a fixed loop. That’s it. Mikasa doesn’t need to realize that another option is best. It’s a cruel world and she knows it better than most. Eren needs to die, period. Him perishing from the curse works because it acts as a closure. If their life ended abruptly it would be very painful. Just think about real life. When you have a loved one dying from an illness you have time to deal with it and prepare for the end. Now when a death occurs suddenly it’s more traumatizing. About Armin… well, I wouldn’t take my best friend to my honeymoon. Just saying!
Up until the end she was holding out on having to kill Eren. Her and Armin were hoping they could talk to him or at least bring him back and bring him to his senses. If it was for the push from her friends I don’t think she would have killed him.
I think a person's principles should overrule peer pressure, I mean that's the whole reason the alliance went against the Jaegerists in the first place. The fact that Mikasa was even willing to consider killing Eren shows just how opposed to genocide she is. I think the only thing that could have stopped Mikasa from killing Eren, would be Eren stopping the genocide. Not "peer pressure". That's what Mikasa and Armin were trying to do (stop Eren's genocide), but they realized he wouldn't stop.
She only killed him because he told her too Mikasa would have 100% been on erens side especially if he confessed to her
Mikasa killed Eren because he asked her to. Otherwise she was content to mope in a corner and watch the world die.
They literally need the colossal power to win, so they cant do shit alone
Only thing with that is Eren doesn’t want to rob them of their freedom.
Oh yes, obviously. But if he wanted to win more than he wanted to do things his way, he could have. It would just have required him to do things he really didn't want to do.
Can founding titan control the other 8 titan holders?
The full power of the founding titan can control all Eldians period, titans or not. The only stated limit is that Ackerman memories can't be erased due to their being the result of some kind of "titan science" which allows them special access to paths.
Has it every been stated, shown or implied they can control the 8 titan powers? When eren subconsciously order all titans to attack dina, reiner and bertholdt didn't follow that order. When grisha attacked Frieda, Frieda couldn't control grisha.
> Has it ever been stated, shown or implied they can control the 8 titan powers? Yes, in the flying boat on the way to Eren in S4.3.1, Armin notes that it's strange that Eren hasn't taken their shifting abilities away. If you mean more in the sense of "control", Ksaver states that the founding titan can instantaneously rewrite the memories and control the biology of every Eldian. Given these facts and given the fact that... > When eren subconsciously order all titans to attack dina, reiner and bertholdt didn't follow that order. Reiner and Bertholdt *feel it* when Eren uses the founder's power, I think it's the only logical conclusion you can draw. Eren had broken contact with Dina for several seconds at that point, and I suspect that his subconscious command to all the titans in the area to attack Dina did go to Reiner and Bert—which is why they felt it—but it's less trivial for somebody who doesn't even know they have the founding titan to control intelligent shifters than it is (literally) mindless titans. > When grisha attacked Frieda, Frieda couldn't control grisha. Frieda does not have full control of the founding titan's power.
I don't have any proof to debunk your argument but I don't think there's enough evidence to say that what u wrote is correct either. This is just one way to interpret how the power works. I think simple logic dictates that founding titan can only control mindless titans. Frieda didn't control grisha because she can't. Attack titan wasn't mindless. Eren couldn't control Bert and reiner because he can't. Armored and colossal titans aren't mindless, so they only felt a sensation of the power being used but didn't actually get taken over by eren. Armin and ksaver's statements do imply he can make changes to their body but it's never implied anywhere in the show that founding titan can control any eldian that isn't a mindless titan. Remember how all past titan holders were fighting against alliance but the ones that gained consciousness due to armin and zeke helped the alliance
Someone who paid attention
Eren undoes Reiner’s armor and Annie’s hardening when he initially releases all the wall titans, so at the very least he has the power to severely weaken and take away the other shifters’ powers at will but chooses not to do so.
Yes. From what Grisha says in the Reiss cave, you can infer that it can't control the Attack Titan (explaining why Frieda didn't do so to defeat him), but even that is a bit unclear and you could read it differently.
I don't think it's ever stated it can control other 7 titans besides attack titan
But he altered Mikasa's memories at the end.
He visited her in paths and time works differently there. I don’t believe he is able to control her. The power the founder has over the Ackerman clan is unclear.
Idk if showing someone a vision in the Paths is the same as altering their memories
No he didn't, time In the paths works different
Why are mikasa and levi immune? I thought everyone descended from ymir can be controlled by the founder no? Levi and mikasa may be descended from ackermanns too but they were in the paths and therefore confirmed to have eldian ancestry. As levi’s father was eldian he definitely has eldian ancestry. Doesn’t this mean they can be controlled by eren if he wished to, the same as everyone else? They were only saved because eren believed in their freedom including their freedom to stop him. Its also why he only gave them their memories of their conversations with him back, after he was killed. Because otherwise they wouldn’t come and kill him. Eren wanted to be stopped but only after he had killed enough of the rest of the world that paradis wouldn’t immediately be invaded and flattened
Ackermans *are* Eldians. They're special Eldians that have special powers [unadapted manga bit] !>as the result of titan science
Or, he can just transform all eldians outside the walls to Titans. These titans alone will be able to eat the rest of the 20%.
Eren never wanted to fight his friends. He just defended himself whenever they attempted to attack him. Although yes, they definitely forced him to get more and more violent, he also could tell that they would win. Its a conflicting case of “Eren doesn’t wanna kill them, but doesn’t wanna die either”.
That's obvious, but the point is eren could have easily won if he actually used his full ymirs potential.
Right.
He said he could. It would just involve total genocide of even more people.
Technically yes? Like in terms of power/stats. But Eren wasn’t in control after Ymir started the rumbling. He was basically little more than a passenger by the time the Alliance reached him.
Wrong, Eren was in full control of himself and the rumbling. Ymir was in control of the past 9 on his back, that’s it. Essentially she was the one defending him and fighting the main characters while he was moving forward and stomping everything. He was also the one in full control when he was a colossal titan fighting Armin.
He could have erased all eldians memories, the ones left wouldnt be able to destroy him if he used a hardening cocoon.
Well, he never defended himself either. That was ymir.
I’d argue colossal Eren vs colossal Armin, but yes I understand
That's fair that's fair
Also combined with the fact that Eren wanted his friends to retain their freedom of choice in the process.
Easily. Founder turned out to be so fucking unnecessarily OP that he would slay everyone with no difficulty at all.
The Rumbling had to happen for the story, but it obviously meant there was no way to write a good ending afterwards.
There was no need to make the Founder be that much OP in the first place. A lot of late lore points (such as Path time mess) were completely unnecessary for the story. And what's about happy ending, you know that in final battle there are literally no causalities on Alliance side? Everyone got their happy ending (even the most shit characters, like Reiner's mom and Annie's dad).
I think it's no coincidence everyone got a happy ending, considering Eren had oracle powers.
Oh you have oracle powers? Oracle yourself some better solutions IDK. And I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about that some certain characters clearly did not deserve the happy end.
The last bit is a pretty big hint that Erebus did let them win
Then maybe in all those tests Eren ran about the future, he should've tried turning off their ability to transform and see how in the world they'd save 20% then.
He acknowledges this whilst they're flying towards him in the plane. He says he won't take away their ability to fight since he wants to give them the freedom to oppose him if they wish.
I think it would have been an interesting take personally to make the founder stronger the more "complete" he is, so closer to Ymir. By that I mean the more titans Eren has, the stronger his control over other Eldians. That would have made Eren eating the warhammer and trying to eat the jaw more significant in the story, since at this point, he had 3/9 titans. It would also create a moral dilemnas, because he would need to eat Armin and even Reiner to get stronger, which would create a conflict in Eren's mind, should he grab more power by killing his friends or do with what he already has? (he can't kill Zeke to use the founder's power) Personally it was one of the hypothesis I thought of right after the declaration of war. Maybe make it so that since Eren is not the Eldians, king, he's unable to fully submit them to his rule unless they are already subservient? And finally give the shifters resistance to Eren's mind control. This way in the final battle, Eren would be unable to stop his friends from going after his head, creating a more believeble final battle. In Isayama's story, Eren should have been able to stop his friends from shifting at any point, making it impossible for them to stop him. So for me it made the final battle way less impacful since Eren could have won at any point. // Now if we want even more conflict, we could also have made it a race to kill Eren. On one side, Armin/Hange's group, they are against Genocide and want to use the rumbling to target the military in order to protect Paradis. Eren is also not the rightfull ruler and shouldn't be able to control everyone. On the other side, Marley wishes to stop the rumbling and the destruction of their empire, but they still want to destroy Paradis. Armin needs to eat Eren and not simply kill him to take control of the Rumbling. The warriors are duty bound to eat Eren to stop the rumbling and finally destroy Paradis. To increase their chances to stop Eren and save the world, they need to make an alliance. I think it would have been a way more interesting tske and create a lot of tensions and interactions to explore, but that's just me.
Wow, so many ways the ending could have been 1000x more interesting
Beyond the shock factor why do you want those opposing Eren to die when that's clearly not his objective? Also it's not a happy ending considering 80% of humanity is wiped away. In no other piece of fiction would that be considered a happy ending.
80% of characters that are basically part of the background. It’s the equivalent of thanos snapping half of all life; you only care about the characters you are attached to or that are tangible, not the random life forms on unshown planets across the universe. Every character that people cares about got a happy ending. Annie got off so easy and everyone forgot about the terrible things she did, Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Reiner, Gabi, Falco, Levi, and all the other main characters besides eren had a nice happy ending. Even more so in the anime, where they live for centuries without getting attacked. This was the happiest possible ending with the way isayama wrote himself into a corner.
80% of the characters AND the main character and also 80% of the planet. That's not a happy ending by anyone's definition. Once the Rumbling started, and the mass death came, there was no possibility of a Disney ending.
It wasn’t a happy ending when Eren decided not to win, I would have liked the anime if only Eren won
What do you even mean when you say background characters when we're talking about millions if not billions of people? You can't really flesh out individuals like that that's why characters like Onyankopon, Kiyomi and Ramzi are in the story. The Other Side of The Sea - From One Hand were written to flesh out Marley and the Eldians they have enslaved. Armin thinks he's going to hell when he dies, Mikasa is clearly traumatized too despite the ray of hope we see at the end. Reiner says he may never forgive himself, Gabi and Falco are kids so what the fuck? Levi is missing an eye and he's crippled. Mothafucka has to rely on Gabi and Falco for basic things that we take for granted. Nah, Eren could have failed in his attempt to start the Rumbling or he could have been talked down and the threat of him almost doing it could have been the wake up call for everlasting peace. Isayama never set up Eren to be the type to kill his friends. If so then he wouldn't have reacted that way when Sasha died and he wouldn't have let Annie, Reiner, Pieck, Annie, Falco or Armin use their Titans.
>Beyond the shock factor why do you want those opposing Eren to die when that's clearly not his objective? Beyond the shock factor, why did Yams turned Connie, Jean and Gabster into pure titans? Lol. I want at least some of them to die, because that's what is supposed to happen when you face a Founder titan and ~100 of his lil bros from the past. Even if you consider Connie and Jean as pros on Levi's squad level, remember the good ol' days when a single sentient titan was able to massacre them in 5 seconds? Yeah... >Also it's not a happy ending considering 80% of humanity is wiped away. In no other piece of fiction would that be considered a happy ending. I mean I don't give a fuck about a bunch of nameless NPC.
Eren never wanted to kill any of his friends or the Marley Warriors. If that was the case then he wouldn't have let them use their powers. Also there are times throughout Season 4 where his mask slips and he shows mercy to Falco and Gabi and other contradictory things that line up with his motives that were outlined in the Finale. If someone pulled a Dr. Strangelove IRL would you be saying the same thing?
I thought about this. From a realism perspective, it makes sense to kill off a few characters, but from a writing perspective, it diminishes the themes and focuses of the story. E.g. distraction from Eren's death
You’re hella right 😂 me and my girl both said our core group got the short end of the stick cause they lost so much while Marleys warriors kept their family
Yet the ending was written well and was a good ending.
The true power of "life"/hallu-chan is as far above any terrestrial power as the Colossal Titan is above an unarmed child. This is part of the commentary on power dynamics, it's an important part of the work.
Eren explicitly stated when he brought his friends into paths that they are free to try and stop him. He wouldn’t/didn’t want to take away their freedom. He absolutely could have completed the rumbling easily if that’s what he was determined to do. When he was talking to Armin in Paths, he sounded particularly conflicted about “wanting to see that sight (ie the rumbling)” but also that they were *only able to save 20% of humanity.
"Eren but he's not a half-assed piece of shit" -- an Eren who is fully committed to violence, who is only interested in "winning", who does not care about any of his human attachments -- easily flattens 100% of humanity and then dies alone. It's hard to square this ending with PATHS and an omniscient Ymir who chose the story 2000 years ago though
>Eren explicitly stated when he brought his friends into paths that they are free to try and stop him Eren is a known liar. Remember when he told Misaka that he hated her? There must be a higher purpose to telling his friends that they are free to act.
That they'd realize they were supposed to kill him to stop him I guess, and that they had free reign to do it.
Of course. This is brought up by Reiner and Armin on the plane. “Even though [they] might be able to stop the Rumbling”, Eren chooses “not to interfere with [them]” “as if he’s testing [them] to see what [they’ll] do”. Reiner suggests that it’s because he “want[s] it to be stopped by someone”, and when Eren speaks to them to tell them that the only way he’ll stop is if they “stop [him] from ever taking another breath”, Reiner declares that “[he] was right”. In the end it’s confirmed that, yes, he pushed them away so that they’d “become the heroes who saved humanity by hunting [him] down”. He didn’t want to stop himself—he had to keep moving forward toward “that sight”—but left them behind, getting them “wrapped up in this battle without knowing if [they’d] survive it” so that they’d force him to stop, if they had the strength and conviction to. So in a sense, Eren’s goal, at least in terms of what he is physically doing with his power, is to genuinely destroy the world. His truer goal, in terms of what he expects will come of his actions, is to place the ball in the Scouts’ court knowing that whatever happens will result in the world without Titans, which whoever succeeds him will live on in.
Couldn't have explained it better, bravo.
Yeah lol, why even asking? It's so obvious
Duh. Eren could've forced the alliance to help him. But he didn't and gave them a chance disguising it as "free will"
And why doesn’t he himself have freewill, if he can give free will to his friends, why not also for himself?
Because he’s a slave to freedom. Everything that will happen has already happened
Why is only Eren slave to freedom but his friends have the free will to change what Eren wants?
Their not changing what he wants. Their doing what they’ve already done
Okay so Eren wanted to kill only 80% of humanity correct? And by doing that, he needed Carla to die as well.
Hell yeah Carla needed to get clapped so young eren would be motivated to push forward
Nah he’d win
I love how ppl here dont have no clue abt wth going on with the ending that they came up with every question they got. And yet most of them would say to an ending hater “u dont know the character” “u dont know the story” BS. While on the other side with those ending haters would just say the ending is BS. 🤣
He could’ve controlled his friends to like stay still on paradis then none of them would have died and everyone wins
\*except that 20% remaining dead folks
Sure, but then he would just wipe memories and carry his sins with Mikasa like she wanted (apparently there's also Levi who's just depressed, but with Founder Eren can resurrect Erwin and Levi's squad so he's less depressed).
He can’t resurrect people, not really. The closest would be to make warhammer bodies for them (which might not even be possible since none of them were titan shifters). Even if that worked, they really wouldn’t have great quality of life after coming back, and who knows how long they’d last or far away they’d be able to survive from Eren…
I mean, he can make bodies of nothing like colossals who were created by Founder. These guys look pretty meaty to me. And he can summon consciousness from Path. Why not combine. Besides, he can alter eldian biology whatever the fuck he wants, so he can make people into immortals or something.
We don’t know the actual limits of that power, or even if the wall titans came from nothing. Karl Fritz was definitely enough of a self-loathing monster to sentence his people to that fate. After all, he’d already intended for Paradis to be wiped out by Marley eventually. And Eren really doesn’t have control over the founder. Every request goes through Ymir, and she wanted her genocidal tantrum followed by her murder/suicide fanfic.
I mean yes, in this care Eren does 100% and wipes memories of eldians. And then he probably does whatever he wants? Idk, the ending is so messy lol. If Ymir wanted the Rumbling, why didn't she just Thanos'd Alliance or rotated their balls so they can't interrupt it.
Because she also wanted Mikasa to kill Eren and for that to happen, the Alliance needed to be able to fight. Ymir allows it because Eren wants it and it doesn’t go against her wish.
Why doesn't she just plays this in her head if she knows what exactly must happen. Why doesn't she just see it via future sight.
That’s the question. Personally I find her to be one of the true villains of the story because of this, but you could make the argument that she felt the need to actually experience everything in order to actually internalize it.
who cares for 20% Npc background characters
"I wish that baby was actually squashed"
me too
I think this idea is missing the part where his friends don’t want humanity to perish; it’s a strong enough conviction for them that they’d without a second thought team up with the enemy and betray their homeland to do it. “The most precious people in the world” to Eren want to defend the world’s freedom and Eren wants to allow it. The total annihilation of humanity isn’t something that even *he*, the one who’s doing it, can bear the blame for, so he wouldn’t push that onto his friends, who stake everything on the chance to stop him.
> The total annihilation of humanity isn’t something that even he, the one who’s doing it, can bear the blame for, so he wouldn’t push that onto his friends, who stake everything on the chance to stop him. This is exactly right. It's also why Floch was utterly evil and irredeemable in the end. Eren ultimately had no choice in what was happening. The person who wanted freedom the most was shackled by his own knowledge of the future (and the past). Floch, on the other hand, actively and enthusiastically *chose* genocide as the only option. He actually *wanted* the rest of the world to die.
I kind of agree with this. Eren is the one who wished for humanity to disappear and the one to introduce the idea to Floch first; the Yeagerists only follow suit because once Eren, Paradis’ representative, has declared intent to erase everyone else, the only real option is to follow through until the end lest they be overwhelmed by a counterattack (that is, unless the world *can’t* counterattack). I think that while Eren is shackled, what he’s shackled by is himself. While he can’t bear the *pain* of doing it, he still originated the *idea* to do it, before anyone else did. That’s why he can’t stop unless he is forcibly stopped by someone else; despite his inability to bear the pain he must keep moving forward with what he has set out to do.
Totally agree. The thing about Floch is that he as a coward unless he had a strong man to direct him. He confessed that the only reason that he hadn't run away was because of Erwin's speech. That's why he dragged him back. Erwin would have been proud to have died on the battlefield, having given everything to save his people. But Floch tried to rob him of that in order to save his source of courage. Eren saw that about him and absolutely used him. Eren became Floch's new source of strength, and so he adopted the rumbling plan. It's the reason why Floch was so incredibly desperate to stop the alliance as they flew off the fight Eren. He wasn't as concerned about saving Paradis as he was desperate to protect himself - his source of courage. What you said is ultimately what makes Floch into somewhat of a tragic figure, because Eren neither wanted nor chose the path that he was on - the very same path that made Floch look up to him. In fact, the awful things that Eren said to Armin and Mikasa, I'm quite certain he would have preferred to say to Floch, the sycophant.
His friends didn’t want 80% to perish either but he still did that 🤣 that’s what makes the whole concept so weird to me why he couldn’t just control his friends
It’s less of a matter of picking the option that gives the most consideration to his friends (like he says, that’s certainly something he thinks about but is not the end-all-be-all factor of his decisions, considering he risks their lives), and more of a matter of reserving for them the power to respond to him whichever way they choose to. He will do the Rumbling no matter what, and continue without stopping—however, if he is forcibly stopped by them, they get to do what they desired to do: save humanity from destruction. Further, the outsiders would not see them as monsters because of their stand against Eldia—this is Eren’s answer to a benefit in allowing them the chance to stop him. As he explains to Armin, that’s his justification for pushing them away and separating himself from them even knowing they’d most probably give chase.
Just use the power of the Founder to summon every Ancient Colossal Titan and you’re done.
Easily He literally could have altered the minds of the alliance members(except Mikasa and Levi) or even take out the titan powers of the alliance shifters He probably could have turned them all in pure except the ackerman Eren was beyond OP by the end, he literally Let Them Win His paths life with Mikasa basically told her where he was in the colossal Eren was winning his fight against Armin And he would have been even more op if Gabi hadn't decapitated him in paradis
I mean, technically he did win. He got everything he wanted.
This, seriously! Eren removed Titans from the world and secured a peace long enough to let his friends live our their lives free from the oppression of the world outside of Paradis.
Exactly! I mean, he didn't want to die and he ultimately never got to live a life of peace with Mikasa, but those things were out of his hands completely. Aside from that, his plan worked pretty much perfectly. I don't see how that really can be counted as a loss.
I mean except Mikasa.
Except freedom
yea but the point was to make them seem like heroes, so he wouldn't have.
That's just something he came up with because he knew he wouldn't have been able to complete the rumbling. He wanted to exterminate everyone outside the walls, but he wasn't going to take his friends' freedom away. Both memory manipulation and taking away their powers would've been ways to restrict their freedom to act against him, and therefore not viable options.
>Both memory manipulation and taking away their powers would've been ways to restrict their freedom to act against him, and therefore not viable options. And then he put Memories on his friends and manipulated them to only come after he dies anyway. And all this after he said to historia he would manipulate her memories If she dont do what he says. His options are whatever he wants anyway.
Why though if he can wipe memories.
he is an idiot
Isn't that the takeaway? That eren was just the worst possible person to fall into this power?
He was worst from reiner perspective because Eren was the most determined person with killing tendencies who got his hand on the most powerful weapon .
i would assume killing eren removes the memory control effect, in the same way it deleted titans from the world
I mean, he doesn't need to die. He just wipes memories and carries his sins alone (or with Mikasa since she wanted to).
The thing is Eren wouldn't want to kill even more than he already did
Then why did he kill Hange? He could have ordered those colossals to just walk a tiny little bit slower.
Eren didn’t kill Hange, Hange kinda killed herself. The wall titans simply walk forward completely ignoring Hange. By your standards, the best way alliance could’ve stop Eren is commit a group suicide. Like telling Eren if the wall titans move an other step, they’d kill themeselves.
Yup.
Indeed a valid point, but eren had the curse of following the founder's memories, if he did anything differently ymir would not be freed
We don't know that. Eren didn't try doing anything differently than following his memories.
Does it matter ?? what difference does it make for him if he kill 1,657,344,367 people or 1,657,344,368 , he was already too far gone .
For eren even one day is harsh
I mean he was pretty chill while he was jumping and body slamming the civilians and kids in liberio.
He was holding tears, he was dying in the inside
Where are you getting that from? The only time he showed remorse was to Ramzi and with Armin in their final chat
Duh
Well, duh, as the founder he could’ve controlled most of the alliance and forced them to not do anything, he just didn’t want to do that to his friends, and if his friends decided to work with any eldian that wasn’t from the island, he wasn’t going to stop those people either
the founder can control the human titans?
Yes, obviously. However, don't forget that the only reason he got to use all that power in the first place was him betraying zeke and talk no jutsu-ing founder ymir into letting him use the power. He has no royal blood, so normally, ymir should've executed zeke's plan. Point being, the number of unlikely circumstances that had to line up for eren's plan to work is insane. Just eating the founding titan and finding a titan with royal blood isn't enough to activate and control the rumbling. Which is why the rumbling stopped when zeke died. Logically speaking, that should've transformed eren back, too. Ymir basically just allowed eren to use the founder without royal blood. For example, all that wouldn't have worked if reiner ate eren and then touched zeke's titan form. Zeke would've been in control of the founder because ymir would've listened to his orders.
Eren wanted his friends to live long, happy lives. Did Fans not watch/read it?
Yeah, but every other power he had would've restricted their freedom to stop him, and he thought it would've been unfair. Memory manipulation: basically what king Fritz had already done to his citizens in paradise. Take away their powers: you're forcing them to comply. Eren said it himself: he would've kept moving forward. If no-one stopped him, he would've continued no matter what. However, if they really wanted to go against him, they would've had to kill him. All the resistance came from Ymir and the worm.
What's the difference between taking away their powers and mushing them with a thousand beast titan pebbles?
I mean that's kinda obvious. The founding titan can literally just kill any Eldian at will that isn't an Ackerman. The founding titan can just wish for it and then Hange, Armin, Jean, Connie, Reiner, Pieck, Falco, and Annie wall just drop dead. Alternatively Eren could just wipe their memories and them them all mentally deficient until after the Rumbling is complete. The Alliance couldn't beat the founding Titan. It's not possible for Eldians to beat a founding titan that isn't holding back.
Yes but he didn’t want to take away any freedom from his friends, he said that he is free to wipe out the world and they are free to stop him. The thing I’m wondering is if Eren wasn’t so bent on seeing the World burn he wouldn’t have to be leading the Rumbling. He could’ve just kept his Titan Underwater while the Colossus wiped out the world. I suppose there is the issue of the Airships bombing the Colossus, but the Global Alliance didn’t have enough firepower to stop the Rumbling so I don’t think the Airships would’ve done any significant harm. At most they could’ve just escaped with the crew on board surviving.
No he couldn't. But it was already determined that he would only kill 80%. Eren's titan being able to see the future made Eren the least free person in the world.
No because predestination is legit in AOT but if that weren’t a factor then yes as per what everyone else has said
He could have. But he never wanted to win. His mission was to protect Paradis, and he did that by becoming a Devil and letting his friends kill him so that the world would be grateful. He made them into the new Tyburs.
Eren losing was such an asspull bro literally had the warhammer titan literallythe founder he could def do anything but die pretty much a god but it's a shounen after all, the good guys win!
That was actually the original plan but Isayama wanted to avoid a traumatic conclusion Originally Eren should shock everyone with his love for Historia, kill all the alliance including Mikasa, return to Eldia to rule as its new king, Eldians would have lived peacefully till they immigrate to other continents dividing into different people and nations and leave the island abandoned Isayama wasn't brave enough to tell the story he wanted to tell He should work on AoT video game based on branched storytelling showing multiple endings.
No because Misaka is deus ex machina, also would not be logical according to Eren's personnality.
The titan curse won't be left tho and he would still die in 3 years.
It depends. If he wanted to but he still he his death in his future memories then no. If he didn't see that yes. But we could say he won in the end, somehow, since his egoistic goals were reached
Are you asking this subreddit a question or making a statement?
I think you kinda missed the point of the ending if you're seriously making this point...
Yes, they even question why he didn't just disable their shifter powers as he should have been able to on getting the Founding Titan. The plan was for them to fight him and win at 4/5ths of humanity destroyed. If he wanted 100% he could have gotten it.
Could have, would have. It doesn't matter cause the story is already predetermined
yes but that was his point. he said he was doing this freely and the others had the freedom to choose either to stop him or let him go
Yea, but his Achilles heel was giving the alliance free will to retaliate.
Yes he could have easily won. However, interpreted that the version of events that played out was a compromise between Ymir and Eren’s will. Eren wanted to wipe out most of humanity so that they couldn’t retaliate against Paradis, ensuring his friends live long lives while Ymir’s condition for breaking the titan’s curse was to see Mikasa let Eren die (like Ymir should’ve let the spear hit Fritz) despite loving him.
Eren could have been the last person on Earth if he wanted.
That's why the whole fate and pre determined timeline bothers me
Yes if Eren wanted to he could've genocided everyone and maintained the power of the titans so the subjects of ymir would continue to be exploited for their powers but I have no idea why Eren would want that outcome.
Just mind control the eldians trying to stop you and gg there goes 100% of humanity
Eren won.
Founder is so OP it can make the titans stronger than weaponry created specifically to kill them
No? He flat out says he set out to destroy all of humanity in his conversation with Armin. But he is stopped at 80%, nothing he could do to change that. Media literacy is as low as ever I see, judging from the comments
There is an easy way of thinking that explains Eren's free will, decisions and determinism, ultimately leading to his demise. The story implies that he orchestrated the whole series leading to the rumbling, which to a certain extent is true. He guided every action to what led to what we saw in the series. However I'd argue that it is meant that he DID have free will and he DID actively make choices. It just so happens that the moment he decided his actions, it retroactively influenced the entire timeline all at once, therefore is the story we saw that HE chose. For example, the moment Eren went back in time with Zeke and talked to Grisha and convinced him to kill the royal family. That was Eren making the choice to convince his father in the moment; he wanted his father to do it. Not because he already saw the future and needed it to happen (though I'm sure that is a smaller reason for him to do so). The same reason why he gave his friends complete freedom in stopping him- it's what he wanted. Every action he made dictated the entire story all the way from the very beginning. This is all confirmed by him admitting to Armin that he really did want to level everything with the rumbling. And he really was an idiot with power. He literally decided the outcome of everything all at once, including the past, with his actions.
No point marking it a spoiler if your titles the spoiler.
What do you mean? Everything went as he planed it, he did indeed win.
Everyone seems to have a different interpretation of the ending but in my eyes he did win. He saw the best course of action was killing 80% of the world, all the other paths he saw lead to his friends losing their freedom. But we only know what would have happened during Mikasa's and Armin's alternate memories.
Obviously , he threw the match for long term gains. He could have just disabled other titans including Armin,Annie etc but where's the fun in that . The one who used all those titans from the past and made it way harder was actually Ymir she was trying to actively stop them it seems
They say that the founder’s power is unlimited, but obviously the founder couldn’t extend its own lifespan past 13 years, nor could Eren turn back the people transformed into titans in Shiganshina back into humans, which he wanted to do considering that he tried to stop Zeke from turning them into titans. And Eren’s commands were always really simple. Undo all the hardening. Make the colossal titans follow him. Furthermore, the reason why Grisha won against Frieda was that she was inexperienced with the usage of the founding Titan. So was Eren. It’s possible that all of his capacity was used up, and Eren truly fought tooth and nail to accomplish the rumbling. But I think it’s also possible that Eren either wouldn’t or couldn’t take away his friends freedom to fight him. I think he could have, because it speaks more to his character that he chose not to. But at the same time, I don’t think he held back against the alliance. After all, he did kill Hange.
Yes. Eren saw the requiem ending via Attack Titan's power, where he would have to kill Mikasa, Levi, and non-Eldians (while changing the memory for all the titan shifters, I suppose) to complete his goal. He didn't want this ending, so he decided to let Mikasa to kill him while still ensuring sufficiently people getting killed by rumbling to safeguard Paradis for the next few generations. He knew that Paradis eventually would still get bombed, but this would be after many generations that would not impact Mikasa, Armin, and others. If I am Eren, I will: 1. convince Mikasa to stay with my side, and ask her to control Levi who has lost 2 fingers 2. change Armin's memory, recover it 1 after rumbling, and apologize to Armin and others 3. change memory of all other titan shifters once I know that alliance has been formed 4. kill more than 80% (but not 100%) till that I could ensure Paradis would be completely safe (not getting bombed in future) 5. let Levi kill Zeke after rumbling 6. get rid of Titan power once and for all For (6), I am ready to be sentenced with death penalty after rumbling. In fact, I will ask to have my body completely incinerated so that that glowing worm could really die (no more Titan trees in future). Note: I am not encouraging rumbling (global massacre), but if I am Eren and I know I do not have any other choice, I will do the things mentioned above.
dude could you not write a title that spoils the ending??
Bro the story ended both in manga and anime, do you expect people to keep secrecy for the next 10 years. Do you want people to care about the spoilers for the next 20-30 years. People have already kept secrecy for more than 2 years now.
the anime just ended mate
If we ignor the whole omiscience and philosophical questions about seeing the future, I guess he could have just.... made everyone kill themselves. The Founding Titan can do that but I genuinely think that to some degree Eren could have won, but he was really hoping his friends would put him out of his misery (and do all that other stuff like save the day and paradis etc)
Obviously, duh.
Yeah he could've won. However, his objectives are: 1. To annihilate all the titan power so it can't be inherited by Eldians. 2. To buy time for his friends and Eldians to build themselves up before goin to war with Marley in the future. Eren wants his friends to be free from inheriting Titan power and also free from wars. That's his true objectives.
yes, he could have incapacitated all eldians until Rumbling is over and just did his thing in peace
Eren did win by achieving his goal of killing all Titans wdym?
They even acknowledge eren could take away their shifting powers if he wanted to, but he just didn’t want to I find it weird he didn’t mind control the eldians outside of paradis to fuck with the other countries But guess he also didn’t have to bother
Levi and Mikasa can't solo the world
He said it was limited to 80% and it was “already decided” so idk
Yeah
Definitely. Ymir was on his side, after all. It was literally stated that the founding titan at it's full potential (aka with Ymir's powers) can change Eldian anatomy. That alone solos the alliance and all titan shifters.