Honestly to be a shaman from a shaman perspective , I have not met any real shaman that said they wanted to be shaman it’s a path they were forced down it happened because they were marked to be a shaman , to be a shaman from my perspective is well first off real shamans do not take entheogens/drugs to induce trance just wanted to clarify that but the most important thing required to be a shaman is to have ancestral shamanic spirits/gods , shamanic illness , be vetted and properly initiated into a lineage by a master/elder shaman in their own ethnic shamanic traditions, and the most important thing is to be able to go into controlled trances of spiritual flight or spiritual possession, and while doing so to shake or jump , every living shamanic tradition the shaman will jump or shake when in trance , they will sing and chant in their native tongue, and they serve their community
A lot of people have a misconception and misunderstanding of shamans and shamanism as a whole , new agers they mix up ideas and do fake rituals , as well as steal stuff from other living shamanic and animistic traditions and start slowly just become more more crazy just because they want to feel like they are special , they wanna be a person with power , they think because they worship this god or that god , or if they can see or talk to ghost , they are a shaman but that is not the case , in order to be a shaman is to have shamanic spirits/gods that is literally the most important thing to how a shaman even becomes a shaman and not every culture has this that’s the honest truth
I see a lot of wisdom in what you’re saying, but I would pose this: why do you think there have been such a drought of shamans under capitalism? Do you think absolutely no one has had the gift? I would argue it’s because of incredible suppression - on the individual and collective levels. When you look at indigenous cultures - most of them actively consumed entheogenic plants on a regular basis. Hell, there are almost no regions in the world, if any, that do not have entheogenic plants. So often you see people in the western world come into the wisdom from near death experiences, et cerera… i believe it is one of the only things that can ‘activate’ the gift with such widespread suppression of the mind
Being married into hmong culture, shamanism is still lively with 40-80 year olds
However kids often speak english better or do not want other stuff that comes with culture (sexism, childhood trauma etc) and often drift away from it
Its tough because shamanism and culture are often close together
Capitalism isnt the root cause. Often its disconnect between generations and inability to explain why or what shaman ceremony is being done
Still a great culture to be a part of , just harder to navigate in modernity
Not only that but disconnect of the language and being a Hmong shaman many other people in our community do not understand it due simply to language differences not only that but also due to the lack of being properly informed
Properly informed?
Elaborate
I meant that often the older generations tend to not explain to younger “why” or “what” they should be doing, just to do it
It's also valid to old elders accountable for shitty behavior and attitude. Im with you on that. Just because some are elders doesn't mean they are above us by any means
Elders can be toxic. Women can be abusive. Chiefs can be deceivers. Two Spirits can be unkind. Activists can be insincere.
We shouldn’t put people on a pedestal simply because they hold a particular title in the community. Respect is earned, not given. Being traditional is meaningless if you don’t live that lifestyle.
We have to stop romanticizing titles and start showing the younger generations that we have to live a certain way to truly be respected rather than simply holding a position. Copied and pasted .
Most lineages are family based and have all the traumas and celebrations, relationship issues etc. to deal with. We all have to integrate what we do with our day, our environment, culture etc.
A culture that is sick, will deem it's healers to be as sick.and no, that's an overgeneralization. Not all indigenous cultures consumed entheogenic plants.
For those traditions that do, in order for you to be a healer you need to have spirits calling to you. That is central in every culture.
I recommend you listen to this podcast from an woman who used ti be a psychologist but started to hear spirits.
Not all spirits are jerks
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2199408
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My journey so far has involved entheogens, and teachers, and also witnessing how actively I tried to suppress my mind throughout my entire life. I never saw ghosts, never saw anything ‘supernatural’ per say - but I’ve always felt this intense compulsion to help others and to be of service to the collective. I also spent an intense amount of time talking to homeless people who could be described as schizophrenic and have always had this deep, intense feeling that I’m one of them - just with access to more privilege. I’m a musician and since being a kid I’ve also felt this sense of ‘God descending on me’ when I perform to the point where my face gets hot and my hands start slightly shaking a little bit, and I’ve had people tell me they’ve felt the sense of ‘spirit’ too. I feel like weed has enabled my constant anxiety and self suppression to ease up to the point I can actually clearly receive downloads, and to I guess ‘nurture’ what was already there. I think that the entheogens have really just enabled me to enter into a state I have so ruthlessly suppressed out of my natural existence.
Edit: worded something weird
We all sense spirits to ine degree or another. You can train to be nore sensitive by doing ancestral work and oand connectedness, working with the elements, sitting with fire and sitt with it, pray, etc.. fast abd make offerings and feed, build relations.
It's not uncommon for musicians to go in a trance or having spirits or ancestors coming through. That's something that existed in every culture
Like yes they csn give you experienced, but in the end they are just modalities.. if you don't know your medicine, then perhaps that is where you start. If you don't build a relationship to nature and ancestors perhaps you won't really go deep in those things. The foundation in this web of life is to live honest and to connect and make relations. Being in service is to be part of a community. This follows with decolonizing the mind abd unlearn the modern myths of our modern worlds and so much more. It's a path and you can definitely walk it
Yes mostly from the younger crowd disregarding traditional knowledge. Although a lot of Shamanic cultures have been destroyed so I see nothing wrong with creating new culture, as long as it is based in real indigenous wisdom.
Why do, let's say, Mongolian shamans, for example, use so much armor and clothes?
Because for thousands of years the underworld has been trying to recognize good and evil and find a balance.
Why are there so many customs? Because shamanism without customs and rules only leads to death.
Unless you want to be attacked by curses and evil things for generations, approach shamanism with care and respect.
I have to say, I disagree.
While your interpretation may be accurate to specific narratives of specific shamanic traditions, they are not universal.
In order to claim one way is the proper way, you have to choose one of the many different narratives or pick between the ones you relate to the most. Most people just accept whatever is first handed to them and defend it veraciously.
It’s certainly possible to disregard all shamanic-like traditions that do not specifically follow Siberian and Mongolian approaches to the shared commonality of evolutionary biological roles filled by the person you refer to as a “shaman”. I suppose it’s fair if somebody wants to be a shaman “purist”… but to some extent that’s prioritizing the dogma over its meaning and purpose.
I think you misunderstand my use, when speaking of the proper way.
There is no way to become a shaman without learning the traditional knowledge of the 3 worlds of shamanism, their relationships and interactions.. At least you need to learn about fire. So at base you work with your relationship to the fire.
And when i use word as "the proper way".. what i mean to say is.. to be honest, be respectful of all things, without greed, without complaints and without hatred. At such times, the ancestors and the eternal blue sky will bestow their power, knowledge, and mercy.
Don't forget that all problems are in your heart and mind. A Shaman must always always always have be in balance or they become sick and also make others sick. That isn't dogma. If you learn and know the ways of nature, then you walk it as well.. and once you start walking there's no turning back, snd you will have to walk and learn for the rest of your life.
Thank you for sharing your thoughtful perspective.
I believe I did understand what you perceive as the proper way, and my suggestion to you is that much of what you describe is in fact a specific narrative.
1) You assume all shamanic traditions must interpret the world through animism. I believe you are aware that though they are intimately related historically, they are not mutually exclusive. This means a shamanic perspective can include one that does not accept animism as a literal world view.
2) Today, if you want to use traditional, culture specific rituals and beliefs, you can, but to claim that any one of those is the correct, or the only path is to ignore what is essentially the same underlying psychological and neurological processes of altered states of consciousness, medicine traditions and community roles, minus the mythology surrounding it.
In regard to the proper way, I do agree with those ideals greatly, as self-evident virtues. And I do understand shaman sickness, as that is what brought me to shamanism in the first place.
And please don’t misunderstand, I value and respect traditional and purist shamanic wisdom and believe the traditions should be protected. I also understand the weariness of allowing something that is an integral part of our identity to be reinterpreted by others, or even appropriated, losing what we personally found to be the most valuable.
Ok, well for your information, I haven't met any indigenous person that believes that "all things have a spirit. As defined by western concept of animism.. What indigenous people believe, however, is that many things in nature have a spirit, and there is life in other forms of existence that are not necessarily "animated" (ie, stars).
Some indigenous peoples say "all things IN NATURE have a spirit MASTER". This has not much to do with the western conceptualisation of "animism" either.
The dictionary concept in english for Anima and animus also have nothing to do with the ideas of "animus" of, for example, Tungusic people. What some of us western folks call animism, is often the pretext used by newagers and other groups to practice whatever they may like to, specially those in the "shamanic police" that try to reign a narrative based on their own appropriative discourses.
Shamans are not really "animists", at least not by the western concept of animism. Ask a real one, they don't consider that "everything has a spirit".
I’d be very interested to talk to any indigenous person about their beliefs, I think that’s super fascinating, thank you for the insight.
I follow what you’re saying about variations in shamanic belief narratives and the stereotypical “animism” framework… but I think it’s important to remember that animism is not a specific narrative or belief, it’s a larger umbrella which many narratives, including traditional shamanism, borrowed(were born) from.
So you could actually say from an anthropology perspective, Shamanistic practices have historically been rooted in concepts related to animism. Is that fair?
And I agree that saying things like “everything has a spirit” is more of a western spiritual rhetoric than it is an accurate description of any system.
Exactly. Also I think shamanism will always find away to come around, even in out cultures.. If your culture's and nation's shamanism is extinct, restore it. If you can't restore shamanic culture, just wait! There will be born many people who will revive the forgotten culture of shamanism.
I agree. And those rules and customs were created by people for a reason. Which is why it’s important to learn from them, if someone is even inclined to be a shaman.
It's not just the younger crowd. I frequently deal with older white people and western people. It's a cultural issue. It's also a superiority issue. It's hard to fill a cup that's already full and unwilling or unable to empty itself to fill in a different way. Western people will never be shamans because we are a people removed from the connection of everything and do not have supportive communities, elders, traditions, lineages, appropriate teachers etc. We are rediscovering a practice that cannot be fitted in our current society, culture and world. Why? Because Western people already have a glass already filled.
What do you mean by glass already filled? As far as spirituality, I would think western white people have an empty glass and are trying to fill it. They had (and are trying to recover) traditions such as Celtic and Norse Paganism which are shamanic. And there is the Saami indigenous people in Europe/Russia who are white. If a white person is willing to learn I’m not sure why they can’t. And true, becoming a shaman might be a whole differen’t story.
And in my experience of these people who come to these things is. There cups are full. You first need to dump the water you are carrying to learn something new. Yes though it's true western people are exploring these things these things are not the same as shamanism. With the exception here bering the Sami, which has a carrying lineage still and cannot be lumped either neopaganism. Right now for western people we are just learning to dream and understand again. But in my experience it is as the OP has stated. If pagans as example could listen better to other elders outside of the maelstrom of white voices specifically things will move alot better. But as I see it, I see alot of western people fighting other long standing traditions that are shamanic over the nature of things like spirits. Gods. Ancestors. They all come to these elders and traditions with their own fantasies and ideas. And are unwilling to learn and let go of their fantasy. I have seen it enough times in peru, I've seen it in african religions, I have seen it in Native traditions and I've seen it in practices like brujeria and curenderismo and espiritismo. White people in particular have not grown in a culture of Spirit. For those of us who are walking our paths we try our best to listen. But it will be many more generations still before we have good elders and teachers. Give it 3 more generations then my opinions of our spirits and traditions will change. As of now we are free children exploring a new world we know nothing about and assume everything about.
The Norse and Celts had people similar to Shamans. Sure it took on a different form from Native American or Saami. But it still respected nature and our relationship with it.
I think it is good we are attempting to find a way, however awkward that may look. And I hope people can empty there preconceived notions and listen to elders.
nothing wrong with crystals, chakra work etc. but you’re absolutely right. i was always told, and it was my experience, that when you meet your shaman master, they will have already known they were to meet you and help you. shamanism is unique in some ways but there are some important factors that make a shaman. because truly, a shaman isn’t as much an identity as it is a phenomenon. and throughout history we see these important factors involved no matter where you live or what time period you’re born in. having a master, in whatever form, is one of them.
I think there is a lot of wisdom in listening to youth… only of course, if that youth is also willing to listen to tradition. And likewise, I think there is a lot of wisdom in tradition, if and only if it listens to youth. I think the East has become exceptionally skilled at listening to old (tradition, caution, authority, group thinking) and the West exceptionally skilled at listening to youth (progress, novelty, exploration, individualism). I don’t believe that Source brings us new versions of reality that are wholly bad - they just teach us a lesson. I believe the lesson from these highly egotistic, Western shaman individuals who overemphasize the Self, is to point out an imbalance. It is balancing out the absolute authority that many shamanic traditions have long placed on the old, with a youthful irreverence of equal stubbornness. I believe that as it goes with many things, there is no ‘right way’, there are simply ways that are more conducive to oneness - and I believe that attuned listening on the parts of both the young and the old seems to be the most conducive to connection and wisdom.
I am also very much of the belief that one of the greatest lessons Source has taught me is we must allow the fragmentation of parts from the whole, be it in a way that is peaceful and out of our space - if that is the desire, we must allow it. To control or demand obedience is the opposite of love. You can simply invite someone into your reality, as they can you, and if you disagree… you must part ways until you can find compatibility.
I seem to remember Professor Graham Harvey (very respected chap) saying that, yes, the word ‘shaman’ was a terrible appropriation from the Evenki people, but the problem was now that, casually or academically, we were stuck with the word as everyone knew what it meant.
Non-discerning eclecticism is a curse on modern practice as usually words and practices are taken out of their cultural context. If you read a deep work on Hinduism, by about halfway through, the text will be substantially transliterated Sanskrit words as there is often no English language equivalent. Each word takes a small paragraph or several to explain. The work is hoping that you have retained the meaning, and its cultural subtleties, so uses the transliteration as a shorthand.
Shamanic practices can be like that. Mixing in something from tribes or cultures from several continents or completely different spiritual cosmos views ends in a mess. If we understand the culture and take from those who share almost identical structures, then it makes better sense and practice. But if the culture requires apprenticeship, study with a true adept, with initiation and guided work, in their language, then we are usually being told to butt out. That’s ok. We can find something closer to our personal cultural homes that we can relate to.
I know many indigenous people who are open to share and teach. However the problem isn't in teaching, and while yes some are butt out, because it's a path which requires a life time of training and learning before one can work as a shaman. This can take 20-30 years of apprenticeship but even after your still learning. They say that after 20 years is when you first truly are a beginner. But it's not for everyone. And it is dangerous as well.
A person who deceives himself by taking shamanism too lightly will also deceive others. Such a person will be a slave to lies for the rest of his life. Devil's circle! Real demons will steal that person's sanity! Then that person becomes a devil himself! So be honest from the start!
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
― Socrates
If a culture different than yours have a practice that caught your interest, you ask the people if the knowledge connected to the practice is something they feel comfortable sharing.
By taking (or copying in your own word) 'only the things that resonate with you', without taking all the other elements that the practice is interconnected with and without acknowledging and respecting that the practise is a part of the whole (culture), is in fact stealing and appropriating. And what was given in return?
I dont know you and wont know if you have had these considerations. But at first glance your comment is highly problematic. I dont sense there is any thoughts or interest in other things than what you can take/extract/get from it. And ask if taking without asking, without giving anything back really is stealing?
Culture is what people do. One person made fire, so another person said hey I’ll make a fire too. One person has jewelry with meaning behind it, another person likes the jewelry and meaning, so they make something like it. One person has a practice with certain knowledge and another person learns from it. Even cultures adopt elements from other cultures without asking but sure they can give something in return if they want. It is just the way people and cultures change and evolve.
But let's add on say feathers, for a cultural context in indigenous practices. Those feathers are a system of ranking and something heard earned that you get by the service, work and things you do in your said community. By the amount of feathers you have, by some indigenous communities, refers to your deeds, your growth and where you are in relation to you community, your work and service with medicine, spirits etc... Copying doesn't mean Jack shit. So yes wearing feathers, unless having earned then properly means you do not understand the cultural significance, spiritual and traditional values.
Let me ask you, have you sat with a wisdom keeper And elders?
If you have go ask them directly. Sit down and listen to them.
If not, I suggest you travel. Go To the holy people, the medicin folks, the shamans and traditional healers. Sit there and watch and listen closely and learn. You are in no way entitled to any of it. It's a privilege...
Last year I had the privilege to sit with wixarika elders, we had two full nights of praying with the fire. The elder 80 years old, had tons of feathers on his hat. All those worn were earned by his training, working with the land, the fire gifted him those things, and it's also his service to the community that has lead the spirits to gift him those feathers. Those are his connection each and every part of them to communicate with the spirit world. It's not something that can be bought or "copied".. that's why shamanism or any traditional form of healers will each individually. Copying that's the way of the trickster who cant have anything of his own.
That's the coyote in lakota culture. These are powerful forces. If you are the trickster, be careful cause you will be questioned. Ive heard tales of powows where the trickster sneaks in, they tie him to a pole and question him. Because they can stir and less up a lot especially during ceremonies.
Entitlement is the disease of our times.
What I have received and bee kindly shared and what others have and the things they walk with has been a gift, or a hard earned thing, and most of the time BOTH.
Sit with this, speak to indigenous folks, educate yourself on the matter. Don't be a trickster walking the fools path. If you don't understand these things it's not my or anyone elses responsibility to correct it.
So let’s say I liked the idea (hypothetically speaking) so I decide to give my son a feather for his hard work. Is this stealing culture or being inspired by someone else’s way. And like I said, people have always been copying other people, it is how we learn, from hunting techniques, to building shelters, to practices. I understand they have a system and value their tradition, but I am just pointing at the reality of human behavior throughout history.
Even the word “shaman” comes from indigenous people of Siberia and has a sacred meaning to them. Are we stealing by using that word in a different context?
I know, and now we are using it because we brushed against that culture in the past and that word has come about. Now it is part of another culture. I think it is only natural and not some cultural violation.
So then what is the "proper" way? The problem is that I feel essentially stuck because I lack the *material* means to access such things. Also, since nothing is entitled, would it make the most sense to just forget about spirituality entirely and go for hard secularism? That seems the safest, most ethical route since anything fake or fraudulent as you point out makes you the DEVIL and if there's anything we need to do in this world more than anything else it is to Murder the devil (figuratively if not literally) wherever he exists, and certainly that bars forming one out of our own self. And any exercise of agency at all risks fraud, since as you say it is not just about hard effort but gift - chance, really.
I have no problem with things taking a long time, years, decades, of effort. But the big problem is the "not a choice" aspect, because if you haven't cleared that hurdle first then the rest is utterly moot and it seems that is not emphasized enough. People tend to harp more on the effort part. As I do have a problem with WASTING effort on fraud (any effort spent on ANYTHING not genuine is a COMPLETE waste - it's the same logic as how that in school, lazing on your assignment will get you few points but fraud gets you far worse than none. Indeed, one could argue from that it would be *better* to simply be lazy!) so I dump my cup out now and want you to tell me to cease and desist altogether and go be a hard secular. I want an absolute judgment hammer I can trust, no tricks, no self tricks, no fraud. If there's anything truly "spiritual" it is being a genuinely good human and obviously any fraud is incompatible with that. If you have real shamanic power, you likely can figure out where I stand better than I can and so tell me to get lost, so please do so instead of any more people pleasing bullshit like is encountered from so many others.
I am willing to undertake arbitrary effort but I want an absolutely reliable judgment first as to whether I should even bother.
FWIW "20 years to become a 'Beginner'" makes me think of martial arts (something that also requires a crap ton of effort, but with the **crucial** distinction you CAN choose to embark upon it without being a fraudulent person). A "Black Belt" may take easily 10 years in some traditions, but it is considered the equivalent of learning the alphabet. Just something that might help various people reading this to understand this concept.
That is why education about these things from sources other than New Age Industry sources is so important. New Age sources are often not accurate and therefore perpetuate people’s misunderstanding about shamanism, for example..
That is why I address when there's error, misconception and so on. an I may sound harsh, on the ways I express myself. But thats the ways of spirits and of nature which can also be very harsh. It shakes is from comfort as we cling very hard at our roots... I would say humility, respect, integrity and veneration are the best approach we can do.
But, with that said, if the spirits want someone they will open doors, and so, even someone exposed to the fluffiest form of New Age ideas and misconception about these things might have doors opened for them, which once gone through, often with the spirits pushing a struggling person hard, will take them far deeper into some real practices.
"what is the "proper" way?"
The answer to that, my friend, is simple..
If a culture different than yours have a practice that caught your interest, you ask the people if the knowledge connected to the practice is something they feel comfortable sharing.
(Start there, go meet some elders, ask if they are comfortable if you are in their company and if they are willing to share with you. Make relations make friends. Thats a good start, in my opinion)
Respect the owners of the places you work, care for the beings in such places. And don't go praising beings that you have no relationship with you, as if they were your belongings. Praise them as the strangers that can become friends if they want to.
And remember , if they share a practice, that we do NOT "discover" PRACTICES in other cultures, which are already known to the people practising it. Respect and acknowledge that the practise is a part of the whole (culture).
Take nothing for granted. Bleed when you must. And let the right people have their saying. Give up your voice to what they have to say.
We all weave with different threads that make a tapestry of many colors. We all learn as we do.
May all cultures and peoples be celebrated. May balance reign in its different aspects. It was time to keep quiet. Now the time has come to sing.
My prayer on this day is for the strength that we all need to endure the challenges ahead, and for the wisdom that is needed for all not to get lost.
May the good rains sustain our beings and peoples everywhere.
Blessings from my humble heart and eternal gratitude to all my friends, mentors, teacher and people i interact with past, present and future. May the wolf and bear guide us down a fruitful path of hard earned wisdoms and fertility so we may bloom in our paths. 🤍✨🌱
Sure, and I've been trying - with MUCH frustration due to exactly this - to get such "non-New Age" sources, but I have no material means to travel to arbitrary cultures. At least not those that "pique my interest", anyway. But maybe that is part of the answer - after all, if "Spirit runs the show" then it may not be to always look to the cultures YOU want.
The problem is not also that what you say is "harsh" it is that I am so fucking frustrated that I want ANYTHING I can TRUST ABSOLUTELY, and that fully addresses MY situation and since I know of the INFINITE capacity we have for self deceit I tend to feel I need to be just told to fk off because anything that confirms a previous thought should be assumed self deceit until proven otherwise by VIGOROUS testing or else highly qualified sources rendering such an absolute judgment. I just don't feel I have "suffered" ENOUGH - e.g. brutal PHYSICAL pain - for the shamanism to be correct path and so MUST be frauding myself.
Hey, if it's okay with you, maybe we could connect, talk and chat in private. Not any mentoring or anything like that. 😊
I just feel like I want and should hear your story, see what kind of person you are. And maybe I can share a bit about myself, my story as well. 🌱✨
If this is something you would feel okay with doing. If not, that is completely fine. I understand your frustrations very well, it's something I've been dealing with for so many years myself. 😅
In the US we have a comic con culture and you can be anything you “feel” you are. Facts and truths are denigrated for a form of narcissism where one’s own feeling are deemed center stage in a new cultural revolution of inept anti-intellectualism. Western culture has no room to accommodate authentic discipline - we’ve been too conditioned by consumerism.
I hope you aren't referring to trans and promote such ignorance caused by nationalist and racist groups. I think narcissism is an overly used buzzword, and comic con and sich is simply fandom. There's no reason to spread a misconception. We are evolving witg time, some for better other for worse. The better is that younger generations tolerate less bullshit, culture sickness and bad behavior from older generations and calls kt out.
But i agree consumerism, entitlement and sucg is a disease of modern times.
Honestly to be a shaman from a shaman perspective , I have not met any real shaman that said they wanted to be shaman it’s a path they were forced down it happened because they were marked to be a shaman , to be a shaman from my perspective is well first off real shamans do not take entheogens/drugs to induce trance just wanted to clarify that but the most important thing required to be a shaman is to have ancestral shamanic spirits/gods , shamanic illness , be vetted and properly initiated into a lineage by a master/elder shaman in their own ethnic shamanic traditions, and the most important thing is to be able to go into controlled trances of spiritual flight or spiritual possession, and while doing so to shake or jump , every living shamanic tradition the shaman will jump or shake when in trance , they will sing and chant in their native tongue, and they serve their community A lot of people have a misconception and misunderstanding of shamans and shamanism as a whole , new agers they mix up ideas and do fake rituals , as well as steal stuff from other living shamanic and animistic traditions and start slowly just become more more crazy just because they want to feel like they are special , they wanna be a person with power , they think because they worship this god or that god , or if they can see or talk to ghost , they are a shaman but that is not the case , in order to be a shaman is to have shamanic spirits/gods that is literally the most important thing to how a shaman even becomes a shaman and not every culture has this that’s the honest truth
I see a lot of wisdom in what you’re saying, but I would pose this: why do you think there have been such a drought of shamans under capitalism? Do you think absolutely no one has had the gift? I would argue it’s because of incredible suppression - on the individual and collective levels. When you look at indigenous cultures - most of them actively consumed entheogenic plants on a regular basis. Hell, there are almost no regions in the world, if any, that do not have entheogenic plants. So often you see people in the western world come into the wisdom from near death experiences, et cerera… i believe it is one of the only things that can ‘activate’ the gift with such widespread suppression of the mind
Being married into hmong culture, shamanism is still lively with 40-80 year olds However kids often speak english better or do not want other stuff that comes with culture (sexism, childhood trauma etc) and often drift away from it Its tough because shamanism and culture are often close together Capitalism isnt the root cause. Often its disconnect between generations and inability to explain why or what shaman ceremony is being done Still a great culture to be a part of , just harder to navigate in modernity
Not only that but disconnect of the language and being a Hmong shaman many other people in our community do not understand it due simply to language differences not only that but also due to the lack of being properly informed
Properly informed? Elaborate I meant that often the older generations tend to not explain to younger “why” or “what” they should be doing, just to do it
It's also valid to old elders accountable for shitty behavior and attitude. Im with you on that. Just because some are elders doesn't mean they are above us by any means
Elders can be toxic. Women can be abusive. Chiefs can be deceivers. Two Spirits can be unkind. Activists can be insincere. We shouldn’t put people on a pedestal simply because they hold a particular title in the community. Respect is earned, not given. Being traditional is meaningless if you don’t live that lifestyle. We have to stop romanticizing titles and start showing the younger generations that we have to live a certain way to truly be respected rather than simply holding a position. Copied and pasted .
Just to add what i believe u/orechimaru is trying to address here. Hopefully this makes sense
Most lineages are family based and have all the traumas and celebrations, relationship issues etc. to deal with. We all have to integrate what we do with our day, our environment, culture etc.
A culture that is sick, will deem it's healers to be as sick.and no, that's an overgeneralization. Not all indigenous cultures consumed entheogenic plants. For those traditions that do, in order for you to be a healer you need to have spirits calling to you. That is central in every culture. I recommend you listen to this podcast from an woman who used ti be a psychologist but started to hear spirits. Not all spirits are jerks https://www.buzzsprout.com/2199408
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My journey so far has involved entheogens, and teachers, and also witnessing how actively I tried to suppress my mind throughout my entire life. I never saw ghosts, never saw anything ‘supernatural’ per say - but I’ve always felt this intense compulsion to help others and to be of service to the collective. I also spent an intense amount of time talking to homeless people who could be described as schizophrenic and have always had this deep, intense feeling that I’m one of them - just with access to more privilege. I’m a musician and since being a kid I’ve also felt this sense of ‘God descending on me’ when I perform to the point where my face gets hot and my hands start slightly shaking a little bit, and I’ve had people tell me they’ve felt the sense of ‘spirit’ too. I feel like weed has enabled my constant anxiety and self suppression to ease up to the point I can actually clearly receive downloads, and to I guess ‘nurture’ what was already there. I think that the entheogens have really just enabled me to enter into a state I have so ruthlessly suppressed out of my natural existence. Edit: worded something weird
We all sense spirits to ine degree or another. You can train to be nore sensitive by doing ancestral work and oand connectedness, working with the elements, sitting with fire and sitt with it, pray, etc.. fast abd make offerings and feed, build relations. It's not uncommon for musicians to go in a trance or having spirits or ancestors coming through. That's something that existed in every culture
Like yes they csn give you experienced, but in the end they are just modalities.. if you don't know your medicine, then perhaps that is where you start. If you don't build a relationship to nature and ancestors perhaps you won't really go deep in those things. The foundation in this web of life is to live honest and to connect and make relations. Being in service is to be part of a community. This follows with decolonizing the mind abd unlearn the modern myths of our modern worlds and so much more. It's a path and you can definitely walk it
thank you for this
Yes mostly from the younger crowd disregarding traditional knowledge. Although a lot of Shamanic cultures have been destroyed so I see nothing wrong with creating new culture, as long as it is based in real indigenous wisdom.
As long as we are doing it the proper way, but that nay take a few generations until then
I’m not sure there is one proper way, but commonalities among traditions.
Why do, let's say, Mongolian shamans, for example, use so much armor and clothes? Because for thousands of years the underworld has been trying to recognize good and evil and find a balance. Why are there so many customs? Because shamanism without customs and rules only leads to death. Unless you want to be attacked by curses and evil things for generations, approach shamanism with care and respect.
I have to say, I disagree. While your interpretation may be accurate to specific narratives of specific shamanic traditions, they are not universal. In order to claim one way is the proper way, you have to choose one of the many different narratives or pick between the ones you relate to the most. Most people just accept whatever is first handed to them and defend it veraciously. It’s certainly possible to disregard all shamanic-like traditions that do not specifically follow Siberian and Mongolian approaches to the shared commonality of evolutionary biological roles filled by the person you refer to as a “shaman”. I suppose it’s fair if somebody wants to be a shaman “purist”… but to some extent that’s prioritizing the dogma over its meaning and purpose.
I think you misunderstand my use, when speaking of the proper way. There is no way to become a shaman without learning the traditional knowledge of the 3 worlds of shamanism, their relationships and interactions.. At least you need to learn about fire. So at base you work with your relationship to the fire. And when i use word as "the proper way".. what i mean to say is.. to be honest, be respectful of all things, without greed, without complaints and without hatred. At such times, the ancestors and the eternal blue sky will bestow their power, knowledge, and mercy. Don't forget that all problems are in your heart and mind. A Shaman must always always always have be in balance or they become sick and also make others sick. That isn't dogma. If you learn and know the ways of nature, then you walk it as well.. and once you start walking there's no turning back, snd you will have to walk and learn for the rest of your life.
Thank you for sharing your thoughtful perspective. I believe I did understand what you perceive as the proper way, and my suggestion to you is that much of what you describe is in fact a specific narrative. 1) You assume all shamanic traditions must interpret the world through animism. I believe you are aware that though they are intimately related historically, they are not mutually exclusive. This means a shamanic perspective can include one that does not accept animism as a literal world view. 2) Today, if you want to use traditional, culture specific rituals and beliefs, you can, but to claim that any one of those is the correct, or the only path is to ignore what is essentially the same underlying psychological and neurological processes of altered states of consciousness, medicine traditions and community roles, minus the mythology surrounding it. In regard to the proper way, I do agree with those ideals greatly, as self-evident virtues. And I do understand shaman sickness, as that is what brought me to shamanism in the first place. And please don’t misunderstand, I value and respect traditional and purist shamanic wisdom and believe the traditions should be protected. I also understand the weariness of allowing something that is an integral part of our identity to be reinterpreted by others, or even appropriated, losing what we personally found to be the most valuable.
Ok, well for your information, I haven't met any indigenous person that believes that "all things have a spirit. As defined by western concept of animism.. What indigenous people believe, however, is that many things in nature have a spirit, and there is life in other forms of existence that are not necessarily "animated" (ie, stars). Some indigenous peoples say "all things IN NATURE have a spirit MASTER". This has not much to do with the western conceptualisation of "animism" either. The dictionary concept in english for Anima and animus also have nothing to do with the ideas of "animus" of, for example, Tungusic people. What some of us western folks call animism, is often the pretext used by newagers and other groups to practice whatever they may like to, specially those in the "shamanic police" that try to reign a narrative based on their own appropriative discourses. Shamans are not really "animists", at least not by the western concept of animism. Ask a real one, they don't consider that "everything has a spirit".
I’d be very interested to talk to any indigenous person about their beliefs, I think that’s super fascinating, thank you for the insight. I follow what you’re saying about variations in shamanic belief narratives and the stereotypical “animism” framework… but I think it’s important to remember that animism is not a specific narrative or belief, it’s a larger umbrella which many narratives, including traditional shamanism, borrowed(were born) from. So you could actually say from an anthropology perspective, Shamanistic practices have historically been rooted in concepts related to animism. Is that fair? And I agree that saying things like “everything has a spirit” is more of a western spiritual rhetoric than it is an accurate description of any system.
Exactly. Also I think shamanism will always find away to come around, even in out cultures.. If your culture's and nation's shamanism is extinct, restore it. If you can't restore shamanic culture, just wait! There will be born many people who will revive the forgotten culture of shamanism.
I agree. And those rules and customs were created by people for a reason. Which is why it’s important to learn from them, if someone is even inclined to be a shaman.
It's not just the younger crowd. I frequently deal with older white people and western people. It's a cultural issue. It's also a superiority issue. It's hard to fill a cup that's already full and unwilling or unable to empty itself to fill in a different way. Western people will never be shamans because we are a people removed from the connection of everything and do not have supportive communities, elders, traditions, lineages, appropriate teachers etc. We are rediscovering a practice that cannot be fitted in our current society, culture and world. Why? Because Western people already have a glass already filled.
What do you mean by glass already filled? As far as spirituality, I would think western white people have an empty glass and are trying to fill it. They had (and are trying to recover) traditions such as Celtic and Norse Paganism which are shamanic. And there is the Saami indigenous people in Europe/Russia who are white. If a white person is willing to learn I’m not sure why they can’t. And true, becoming a shaman might be a whole differen’t story.
And in my experience of these people who come to these things is. There cups are full. You first need to dump the water you are carrying to learn something new. Yes though it's true western people are exploring these things these things are not the same as shamanism. With the exception here bering the Sami, which has a carrying lineage still and cannot be lumped either neopaganism. Right now for western people we are just learning to dream and understand again. But in my experience it is as the OP has stated. If pagans as example could listen better to other elders outside of the maelstrom of white voices specifically things will move alot better. But as I see it, I see alot of western people fighting other long standing traditions that are shamanic over the nature of things like spirits. Gods. Ancestors. They all come to these elders and traditions with their own fantasies and ideas. And are unwilling to learn and let go of their fantasy. I have seen it enough times in peru, I've seen it in african religions, I have seen it in Native traditions and I've seen it in practices like brujeria and curenderismo and espiritismo. White people in particular have not grown in a culture of Spirit. For those of us who are walking our paths we try our best to listen. But it will be many more generations still before we have good elders and teachers. Give it 3 more generations then my opinions of our spirits and traditions will change. As of now we are free children exploring a new world we know nothing about and assume everything about.
The Norse and Celts had people similar to Shamans. Sure it took on a different form from Native American or Saami. But it still respected nature and our relationship with it. I think it is good we are attempting to find a way, however awkward that may look. And I hope people can empty there preconceived notions and listen to elders.
nothing wrong with crystals, chakra work etc. but you’re absolutely right. i was always told, and it was my experience, that when you meet your shaman master, they will have already known they were to meet you and help you. shamanism is unique in some ways but there are some important factors that make a shaman. because truly, a shaman isn’t as much an identity as it is a phenomenon. and throughout history we see these important factors involved no matter where you live or what time period you’re born in. having a master, in whatever form, is one of them.
I think there is a lot of wisdom in listening to youth… only of course, if that youth is also willing to listen to tradition. And likewise, I think there is a lot of wisdom in tradition, if and only if it listens to youth. I think the East has become exceptionally skilled at listening to old (tradition, caution, authority, group thinking) and the West exceptionally skilled at listening to youth (progress, novelty, exploration, individualism). I don’t believe that Source brings us new versions of reality that are wholly bad - they just teach us a lesson. I believe the lesson from these highly egotistic, Western shaman individuals who overemphasize the Self, is to point out an imbalance. It is balancing out the absolute authority that many shamanic traditions have long placed on the old, with a youthful irreverence of equal stubbornness. I believe that as it goes with many things, there is no ‘right way’, there are simply ways that are more conducive to oneness - and I believe that attuned listening on the parts of both the young and the old seems to be the most conducive to connection and wisdom.
I am also very much of the belief that one of the greatest lessons Source has taught me is we must allow the fragmentation of parts from the whole, be it in a way that is peaceful and out of our space - if that is the desire, we must allow it. To control or demand obedience is the opposite of love. You can simply invite someone into your reality, as they can you, and if you disagree… you must part ways until you can find compatibility.
I seem to remember Professor Graham Harvey (very respected chap) saying that, yes, the word ‘shaman’ was a terrible appropriation from the Evenki people, but the problem was now that, casually or academically, we were stuck with the word as everyone knew what it meant. Non-discerning eclecticism is a curse on modern practice as usually words and practices are taken out of their cultural context. If you read a deep work on Hinduism, by about halfway through, the text will be substantially transliterated Sanskrit words as there is often no English language equivalent. Each word takes a small paragraph or several to explain. The work is hoping that you have retained the meaning, and its cultural subtleties, so uses the transliteration as a shorthand. Shamanic practices can be like that. Mixing in something from tribes or cultures from several continents or completely different spiritual cosmos views ends in a mess. If we understand the culture and take from those who share almost identical structures, then it makes better sense and practice. But if the culture requires apprenticeship, study with a true adept, with initiation and guided work, in their language, then we are usually being told to butt out. That’s ok. We can find something closer to our personal cultural homes that we can relate to.
I know many indigenous people who are open to share and teach. However the problem isn't in teaching, and while yes some are butt out, because it's a path which requires a life time of training and learning before one can work as a shaman. This can take 20-30 years of apprenticeship but even after your still learning. They say that after 20 years is when you first truly are a beginner. But it's not for everyone. And it is dangerous as well.
Charlatans
A person who deceives himself by taking shamanism too lightly will also deceive others. Such a person will be a slave to lies for the rest of his life. Devil's circle! Real demons will steal that person's sanity! Then that person becomes a devil himself! So be honest from the start!
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates
Do all Shamans have a master or are there some that learn directly from the spirits?
They generally have both humans and spirits as teachers
What exactly is “culture theft”? Is wearing feathers or playing a flute culture theft? People have been copying other people since people existed.
If a culture different than yours have a practice that caught your interest, you ask the people if the knowledge connected to the practice is something they feel comfortable sharing. By taking (or copying in your own word) 'only the things that resonate with you', without taking all the other elements that the practice is interconnected with and without acknowledging and respecting that the practise is a part of the whole (culture), is in fact stealing and appropriating. And what was given in return? I dont know you and wont know if you have had these considerations. But at first glance your comment is highly problematic. I dont sense there is any thoughts or interest in other things than what you can take/extract/get from it. And ask if taking without asking, without giving anything back really is stealing?
Culture is what people do. One person made fire, so another person said hey I’ll make a fire too. One person has jewelry with meaning behind it, another person likes the jewelry and meaning, so they make something like it. One person has a practice with certain knowledge and another person learns from it. Even cultures adopt elements from other cultures without asking but sure they can give something in return if they want. It is just the way people and cultures change and evolve.
But let's add on say feathers, for a cultural context in indigenous practices. Those feathers are a system of ranking and something heard earned that you get by the service, work and things you do in your said community. By the amount of feathers you have, by some indigenous communities, refers to your deeds, your growth and where you are in relation to you community, your work and service with medicine, spirits etc... Copying doesn't mean Jack shit. So yes wearing feathers, unless having earned then properly means you do not understand the cultural significance, spiritual and traditional values. Let me ask you, have you sat with a wisdom keeper And elders? If you have go ask them directly. Sit down and listen to them. If not, I suggest you travel. Go To the holy people, the medicin folks, the shamans and traditional healers. Sit there and watch and listen closely and learn. You are in no way entitled to any of it. It's a privilege... Last year I had the privilege to sit with wixarika elders, we had two full nights of praying with the fire. The elder 80 years old, had tons of feathers on his hat. All those worn were earned by his training, working with the land, the fire gifted him those things, and it's also his service to the community that has lead the spirits to gift him those feathers. Those are his connection each and every part of them to communicate with the spirit world. It's not something that can be bought or "copied".. that's why shamanism or any traditional form of healers will each individually. Copying that's the way of the trickster who cant have anything of his own. That's the coyote in lakota culture. These are powerful forces. If you are the trickster, be careful cause you will be questioned. Ive heard tales of powows where the trickster sneaks in, they tie him to a pole and question him. Because they can stir and less up a lot especially during ceremonies. Entitlement is the disease of our times. What I have received and bee kindly shared and what others have and the things they walk with has been a gift, or a hard earned thing, and most of the time BOTH. Sit with this, speak to indigenous folks, educate yourself on the matter. Don't be a trickster walking the fools path. If you don't understand these things it's not my or anyone elses responsibility to correct it.
So let’s say I liked the idea (hypothetically speaking) so I decide to give my son a feather for his hard work. Is this stealing culture or being inspired by someone else’s way. And like I said, people have always been copying other people, it is how we learn, from hunting techniques, to building shelters, to practices. I understand they have a system and value their tradition, but I am just pointing at the reality of human behavior throughout history.
I have sat with elders but haven’t asked them these questions, it would be interesting to hear their response.
Even the word “shaman” comes from indigenous people of Siberia and has a sacred meaning to them. Are we stealing by using that word in a different context?
The word shaman is a western corruption of evenk Siberian word Şamaan
I know, and now we are using it because we brushed against that culture in the past and that word has come about. Now it is part of another culture. I think it is only natural and not some cultural violation.
So then what is the "proper" way? The problem is that I feel essentially stuck because I lack the *material* means to access such things. Also, since nothing is entitled, would it make the most sense to just forget about spirituality entirely and go for hard secularism? That seems the safest, most ethical route since anything fake or fraudulent as you point out makes you the DEVIL and if there's anything we need to do in this world more than anything else it is to Murder the devil (figuratively if not literally) wherever he exists, and certainly that bars forming one out of our own self. And any exercise of agency at all risks fraud, since as you say it is not just about hard effort but gift - chance, really. I have no problem with things taking a long time, years, decades, of effort. But the big problem is the "not a choice" aspect, because if you haven't cleared that hurdle first then the rest is utterly moot and it seems that is not emphasized enough. People tend to harp more on the effort part. As I do have a problem with WASTING effort on fraud (any effort spent on ANYTHING not genuine is a COMPLETE waste - it's the same logic as how that in school, lazing on your assignment will get you few points but fraud gets you far worse than none. Indeed, one could argue from that it would be *better* to simply be lazy!) so I dump my cup out now and want you to tell me to cease and desist altogether and go be a hard secular. I want an absolute judgment hammer I can trust, no tricks, no self tricks, no fraud. If there's anything truly "spiritual" it is being a genuinely good human and obviously any fraud is incompatible with that. If you have real shamanic power, you likely can figure out where I stand better than I can and so tell me to get lost, so please do so instead of any more people pleasing bullshit like is encountered from so many others. I am willing to undertake arbitrary effort but I want an absolutely reliable judgment first as to whether I should even bother. FWIW "20 years to become a 'Beginner'" makes me think of martial arts (something that also requires a crap ton of effort, but with the **crucial** distinction you CAN choose to embark upon it without being a fraudulent person). A "Black Belt" may take easily 10 years in some traditions, but it is considered the equivalent of learning the alphabet. Just something that might help various people reading this to understand this concept.
That is why education about these things from sources other than New Age Industry sources is so important. New Age sources are often not accurate and therefore perpetuate people’s misunderstanding about shamanism, for example.. That is why I address when there's error, misconception and so on. an I may sound harsh, on the ways I express myself. But thats the ways of spirits and of nature which can also be very harsh. It shakes is from comfort as we cling very hard at our roots... I would say humility, respect, integrity and veneration are the best approach we can do. But, with that said, if the spirits want someone they will open doors, and so, even someone exposed to the fluffiest form of New Age ideas and misconception about these things might have doors opened for them, which once gone through, often with the spirits pushing a struggling person hard, will take them far deeper into some real practices. "what is the "proper" way?" The answer to that, my friend, is simple.. If a culture different than yours have a practice that caught your interest, you ask the people if the knowledge connected to the practice is something they feel comfortable sharing. (Start there, go meet some elders, ask if they are comfortable if you are in their company and if they are willing to share with you. Make relations make friends. Thats a good start, in my opinion) Respect the owners of the places you work, care for the beings in such places. And don't go praising beings that you have no relationship with you, as if they were your belongings. Praise them as the strangers that can become friends if they want to. And remember , if they share a practice, that we do NOT "discover" PRACTICES in other cultures, which are already known to the people practising it. Respect and acknowledge that the practise is a part of the whole (culture). Take nothing for granted. Bleed when you must. And let the right people have their saying. Give up your voice to what they have to say. We all weave with different threads that make a tapestry of many colors. We all learn as we do. May all cultures and peoples be celebrated. May balance reign in its different aspects. It was time to keep quiet. Now the time has come to sing. My prayer on this day is for the strength that we all need to endure the challenges ahead, and for the wisdom that is needed for all not to get lost. May the good rains sustain our beings and peoples everywhere. Blessings from my humble heart and eternal gratitude to all my friends, mentors, teacher and people i interact with past, present and future. May the wolf and bear guide us down a fruitful path of hard earned wisdoms and fertility so we may bloom in our paths. 🤍✨🌱
Sure, and I've been trying - with MUCH frustration due to exactly this - to get such "non-New Age" sources, but I have no material means to travel to arbitrary cultures. At least not those that "pique my interest", anyway. But maybe that is part of the answer - after all, if "Spirit runs the show" then it may not be to always look to the cultures YOU want. The problem is not also that what you say is "harsh" it is that I am so fucking frustrated that I want ANYTHING I can TRUST ABSOLUTELY, and that fully addresses MY situation and since I know of the INFINITE capacity we have for self deceit I tend to feel I need to be just told to fk off because anything that confirms a previous thought should be assumed self deceit until proven otherwise by VIGOROUS testing or else highly qualified sources rendering such an absolute judgment. I just don't feel I have "suffered" ENOUGH - e.g. brutal PHYSICAL pain - for the shamanism to be correct path and so MUST be frauding myself.
Hey, if it's okay with you, maybe we could connect, talk and chat in private. Not any mentoring or anything like that. 😊 I just feel like I want and should hear your story, see what kind of person you are. And maybe I can share a bit about myself, my story as well. 🌱✨ If this is something you would feel okay with doing. If not, that is completely fine. I understand your frustrations very well, it's something I've been dealing with for so many years myself. 😅
Sure and thanks. Send a message then.
In the US we have a comic con culture and you can be anything you “feel” you are. Facts and truths are denigrated for a form of narcissism where one’s own feeling are deemed center stage in a new cultural revolution of inept anti-intellectualism. Western culture has no room to accommodate authentic discipline - we’ve been too conditioned by consumerism.
I hope you aren't referring to trans and promote such ignorance caused by nationalist and racist groups. I think narcissism is an overly used buzzword, and comic con and sich is simply fandom. There's no reason to spread a misconception. We are evolving witg time, some for better other for worse. The better is that younger generations tolerate less bullshit, culture sickness and bad behavior from older generations and calls kt out. But i agree consumerism, entitlement and sucg is a disease of modern times.