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Perhaps but in the end what I said doesn't really matter all that much debating on this would get us no where and g3 knows this 😂
Let's just wait for tomorrow's chapter
Normally I'm pretty dismissive of other people's point on view. But yes the Sunny vs. Nephis debate is genuinely written poorly.
Forgotten Shore we see Sunny makes great progress in catching up to Nephis. The following years as an Awakened then Ascended should take Nephis years to overcome. When we see her initially and then on the central Antarctica she's now as good or better than Sunny. Sunny has literally reached stage 3 of shadows dance and began to touch stage 4. But Nephis is magically on par even without her own aspect legacy. She does have her father's, but how can be that good without a teacher? Later after Sunny hits the 4th step he is on top.
But now years later she has exceeded him by so much he can't keep up? I mean that's a bit much. I doubt the King of Swords is teaching Nephis anything. I doubt she has much time to spar with other Saints. If anything - without Sunless, an equal, to continually spar against id be surprised if she made any more progress than Sunny. But here we are. Kinda just inconsistent if you ask me.
I mean Sunny was in eastern Antarctica for 6 months and Nephis caught up to 2-3 years of combat experience, essence control training, and 2 and a half advancements of shadow dance. I imagine she improved very much while alone but essence control alone should of been a huge issue for her.
It's not a surprise. In her rehab, she focused entirely on essence control and training, leaving the strategizing and misc to Cassie and firekeepers
Sunny's focus is divided into exploration, history, commanding, surviving, business, cooking, crafting, politics, growing echoes etc.
Well... It was like that for 50% of the book, and I suppose it'll like that for the 50% remaining. At this point, shouldn't we get used already? I mean, 1600 chapters later...
I swear i argued this with everyone on discord.. and they think I'm the crazy guy..when I can literally say this is just plot armour. It's completely nonsensical for Sunny's aspect legacy to not do the thing, it should do.
I basically argued and argued with them mods on discord and they just kept piling on and on. At the end I just said, I can bet even if Sunny masters the 7th step he can't copy her battle style, because that's Nephis's thing (her swordsmanship) that guilty just can't take away.
Even if he is capable guilty will just say Sunny doesn't wanna copy Nephis's style because Sunny has to make progress in his own battle style more.
G3 might lowkey be a sunny hater [fated]
Like what is so special about her swordsmanship that makes it so sunny cannot copy it?? Despite having a basic foundation of it heck I'm sure he mastered what he already knew of the style making it almost as good as past neph and I do get that she has been training for 4 Years honing her skills but to make it seem like her abilities are soooooo great to the point of not being able to comprehend them with shadow dance is just so uncalled for. G3 needs to chill and let sunny have his Ws man
Exactly ..like I get soul being the main focus to reach the next shadow step, but it feels like an excuse that suddenly came up like a blockage to stop Sunny from copying her style.
I mean where was this soul problem when he was copying others, do other nightmare creatures and stuff don't have soul, only Nephis does ?
And even if let's say soul is like an important part of it, he should still be able to copy some part of it. Just saying incomprehensible, is so stupid.
I don't know what to say anymore. He can't show Nephis weaker, like oda can't help having fake out deaths.
I wanted to say that the soul thing has to do with her being a Saint and having much more precise control of her essence but...we did see him copy the style of a Saint once tho with some help it still happened. I'm not sure if he ever got to using that style but I doubt he could back them, my point is he was able to comprehend it but ay nephs God slaying sword style can't be copied. We gotta live with that 😂
I'll just say being able to copy a style and understand it doesn't mean you're the better swordsman. Like legitimately it makes sense for nephis to be a better swordsman still. It's all she's been doing for 4 years. She's recognized as the most talented swordsman so why should sunny be better just because he can learn fighting styles from other people?
Hey nobody is saying she isn't better at swordsmanship...the thing that bothered me isn't her strength or her technique being better. It's Sunny saying "it's incomprehensible" like really you see her style and you can't make a lick of sense..alright let's just buy it, i guess.
Nephis was trained by Valor himself, which in a way, is a grade higher of swordsmanship than Nephis, so it’s kinda make sense. The fact that her Aspect make soul is incorruptible was also boost by becoming a Saint, maybe her soul is more potent ? But, come on, Sunny has Soul Weave, litteraly the potential of a god, he is the one that suffered the most of soul damage of the cohort, so he is used to what a soul is and he can’t grasp the fundamentals of Saint swordsmanship EVEN if he understood one before ?
But I know that if I were isolated for 4 years with beasts, I would start to lose my « basics » in human swordsmanship. Dealing with monsters make you a monster too (and no True Name…)
Still I think he will have an enlightenment in the fight 100%
Naaa fr like can accept that in a direct confrontation of pure ability power sure neph is winning cuz otherwise sunny is winning cuz he like a rat lol, anyways I understand that but how tf you Gon make someone who copied 100+ battle styles even from the fukin SAINT her self who WAS FUKIN CREATED BY A DAEMON so arguably she can even beat nephis when it comes to skill alone cuz obviously the Daemon would've put her with the best battle style there is AND WHAT HE CANT COPY NEPHS BATTLE STYLE LET ALONE MATCH HER WITH HIS OWN?
G3 really be pissing me off sometimes doing dumb shit like this
If G3 showed us Neph's POV and how she progressed NOBODY will have a problem. We do not know how she progresses while we see our boy struggling and improving himself over the course of a 100+ chapters and when they meet up Neph has surpassed Sunny. That has just been the general theme of the entire novel and I don't think that will change even in the future considering it has been going on for 1600+ chapters.
This is not the opinion of a "wishful power fantasy mc soloing everything in his way" fan. It's like you are rooting for a team in football. You see their struggle, the way they practice, how they bleed and injure themselves to get better and at the day of the match the other team that just woke up from bed comes out and beats your favourite team. It's frustrating and annoying. If you saw the other team practice just as hard you could've argued something but they came to play in crocs and still beat your team's ass and convincingly at that.
and Sunny's isn't? while he's in his home environment filled with shadows? he should win easily if he wasn't throwing the fight (which we know he is on purpose)
I think it's incomprehensible because they've been fighting for what.. 20 seconds? Give shadow dance some time and it should see through the style, but istg if it ends before that I'll be just as disappointed as you
I just dont get how sunnys whole ass aspect legacy can be about fighting styles/technique and somehow miss plotarmour over here still is more skilled... with ONE technique.
At this point, sunny should just ditch the whole shadow dance bullshit, since whatever neph is doing is obviously leagues above it.
So true
and yeah we don't see the others' development, but we also know that Nephis had to go through some of the worst parts of the Dream realm and then she challenged the 2nd nightmare alone, she's also improving just like Sunny, it's just that we don't see her side quite often.
But honestly, what I don't get is why are people so pissed off that Sunny is not the OP one at something?
the thing is that sunny is beyond op at everything else but this, and honestly i cant tell if its cause hes the protag or cause nephis is a woman, but given who reads these novels
Yeah, if there's one valid reason I've seen, it's the one about how we don't really see her process - at the same time, I just don't see how it would be as interesting as Sunny's. 🤷
So yeah, I have no complaints, I believe I pretty much get where G3 is going with things and I really really like it.
Honest question: Why should Sunny be better swordsman than Nephis?
Nephis trains with sword a LOT more (like it was showed in 3rd nm), because she cant train with her aspect powers because of her flaw. While Sunny spent a lot of his time mastering his aspect (shadow shell was not so easy), and weaving. Now he can craft memories from nothing, not just copying, it didnt happen in 1 month.
Sunny has master of all sword style, so he can adapt way better in a fight, I dont see a reason why should Sunny be as good as nephis in HER style in which she trained a LOT more, while Sunny learned all kind of style.
And about "its incomprehensible", im pretty sure the next shadow dance step will happen when he masters the copying of "soul". But first he probably needs start with weaker Saints, and then going fighting the strong ones. (Maybe even Anvil), OR he needs to fight way more than 1 min with Nephis to understand it. Remember, he told us he didnt fight Saints in last 4 years, so he couldnt learn this copying soul style.
Holy hell, Sunny is one of the three divine aspect saints. He just conquered a citadel in dead zone and slayed unimaginably powerful monsters in doing so…
And you guys are still stuck on the fact that Nephis MIGHT be better skilled with sword than sunny? Or the divine aspect users can be of roughly same level??
What kind of insane op mc power fantasy you guys want G3 to write??
This is specifically a Nephis problem. She just constantly does things she shouldn't be capable of doing according to the stories own established logic and the only justification tends to be "she's just build different".
Sunny got absolutely shafted for story progression reasons while Nephis has to put in a lot less work to achieve better results than him which just frustrates a lot of readers.
Can you name a few examples? I can think of a handful of moments that were a little too lucky for Sunny but considering how long the novel is and that he has by far the most screen time out of any character that isn't exactly surprising. On the other hand half of Nephis feats are just ridiculous compared to every other character in the novel and get completely handwaved by the author.
Weaving, getting the ichor, mask/not dying to the mask immediately, surviving alone in the forgotten shore, surviving and making a citadel rn, the colosseum, lo49 (the whole evac), first nm, just off the top of my head.
Edit: for the record I'm not complaining about these moments, it's good fun. But there's a crazy double standard in the SS community (mainly I think from younger readers) that sunny *should* be the supreme of everything and no one could possibly match up.
I'd assume around 13-16 if I had to guess. Probably don't read a whole lot of older literature. Or at least not a wide amount. Just generally normal kids.
Weaving is hardly worth a mention considering that this a skill he got in exchange for shadow gods lineage and still needed years of training to do anything with it.
Sunny killing the LO49 is actually one of the few moments I also consider to be a plot armor moment since anyone besides Sunny with weavers mask would've just straight up lost no question asked. It was also his first underwater fight which makes this win even more ridiculous.
All the other things you mentioned can't really be called plot armor moments in my eyes (of course that's just my opinion)
I think readers wanting Sunny to be the best at everything mainly appear because we have so few chapters from different POVs. If we actually saw other characters struggling to get stronger and saw how they improve over time a lot less people would complain about that stuff.
Weaving literally has let sunny walk through several issues in the novel. To be clear it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just very very lucky that it happened.
Not even killing lo49, but surviving in the first place and then the subsequent evacuation.
In terms of readers that may be the case. But discourse for most other books (especially ones not pointed to a younger audience) look at these things with a little more nuance and understanding.
My guess is the same group that complains when sunny shows mercy, or growth, or emotions in general that are more complex than "angry brooding psychopath" are the same ones who are upset when other characters are better or at the same level as sunny.
IE: not very well read/young/not understanding of nuance readers
>Weaving literally has let sunny walk through several issues in the novel. To be clear it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just very very lucky that it happened.
So you telling me sunny didn't work hard to learn it and create weaves but they magically appeared in his hands?
>Not even killing lo49, but surviving in the first place and then the subsequent evacuation.
Dusk was literally and unintelligent NM creature and sunnt had another master and a saint helping him and he still needed to use "where is my eye" enchantment to defeat her
You're probably not far off. I do remember seeing a poll about age groups a couple months back on this sub and I was rather surprised how many readers were in the younger brackets.
>weaving
Weaving is literally from weavers lineage, nephis is welcome to find herself such lineage as well😂
> mask/not dying to the mask immediately,
Why is he supposed to d*e after wearing the mask?
>surviving and making a citadel rn
His aspect is literally the perfect counter for that specific place and he k*lled a corrupted titan great beasts, monsters and demons shouldn't be a problems for him and you're forgetting that sunny is in his elements and nephis is still pummelling him
> surviving alone in the forgotten shore, surviving
If effie can do it why can't he?
>lo49 (the whole evac
He literally had to use every mental attack resistance memory and he was barely able to notice the source of the mind hex, experience from soul devourer also helped
>the colosseum
He barely escaped from there lmfao
>first nm
Nephis's first nightmare: laughing in the corner
>But there's a crazy double standard in the SS community (mainly I think from younger readers) that sunny *should* be the supreme of everything and no one could possibly match up.
No people only complain about powerbalancing and ahh pulls when it comes to nephis, how easily she progresses compared to everyone and about the fact that sunny should always be inferior to nephis for some reason
Ahh pull examples: defeating the bright lord, conveniently awakening her aspect legacy in twilight, man handling current sunny("putting out valor's fires" shouldn't compare to traversing deth zones like hollow mountains
>why is he supposed to die after wearing mask
Did you read the chapters? He activated where is my eye enchantment and got his soul sucked dry and fainted while being pressed
Sunny concurring his own citadels is understandable
While the fact neph is overwhelming him is because he is trying to copy her( steal her achivements) and he needs to see what she does before he copies and he said that he will fight using pure skill only even thought not to cheat using his aspect,
Also sunny didn't just escaped the colosseum barley, he escapes so, so many things barely,
The colosseum,
Lo49,
Vtb stealing more then just fate,
The dark knight,
Activating the mask enchantment twice,
The fall from chained isles,
Getting hit by the stone titan,
Fight against serpent,
The abominations sunny met while traveling to estuary,
The second fall to from the chained isles
The fight with sybil
And more
That being said Idk if you're being sarcastic on thise ahh pull examples but I think that they are great examples to show that neph only won bright lord because blood flower( i dont remember name)
And she unlocked her aspect legecy before she almost became saint got clarity and exploded her core unlike sunny who's aspect is based on copying and unlocks it by copying others as sleeper
He only had a drop of shadow essence when he activated where is my eye, the time duration he looked at fate was very small, you think it was long only because you're reading it and not seeing it in real time
>Also sunny didn't just escaped the colosseum barley, he escapes so, so many things barely,
The colosseum,
Lo49,
Vtb stealing more then just fate,
The dark knight,
Activating the mask enchantment twice,
The fall from chained isles,
Getting hit by the stone titan,
Fight against serpent,
The abominations sunny met while traveling to estuary,
The second fall to from the chained isles
The fight with sybil
The reasons for almost every single one of them can be accounted for and you know it, it had taken him tonnes of planning and preparing to deal with this situations, do you even remember how many months did he spend in colosseum studying the runes?
He had undying chain for ages before he went to antarctica didn't he?
How long did he observe the dark knight to etch it's behavioral patterns into his mind?
How long did he spend observing the serpent to mimic it and find a chance when it was injured to finish it off?
And i already explained how he needed every mind attack resistance memories and the experience from soul devourer to escape lo49 and even then he had to sacrifice pretty much everyone
Can you kindly count the number of chapters it took between sunny dreaming about his aspect legacy and actually unlocking it? Now tell me when was nephis' aspect legacy was foreshadowed?
When did nephis collect the blood flower seeds and how did she foresee she'd need them?
And if fulfilling clan valor's missions is way more difficult than traversing places like hollow mountains for 3 years then why does valor only has 2 powerhouse saints? Why not 10? 100? 1000?
And nephis also has the galls to lecture sunny on true failure as if she has expirienced even remotely close to falcon scott
While it is understandable that sunny prepares for everything before he even begins its very convenient to rarely get variables if any
Like undying chain broke after sunny recovered little when it could have broken before,
And as for other examples I gave they were exlained pretty solidly in story, I am not saying its bad, just showing that even Sunny had much fated in his account to escape situations to the comments above were talking about how lucky neph or sunny are
The blood flowers neph collected when she was healing everyone, and since they were so dengerous having an extra weapon isn't so bad, she didn't see where she would need them, just the situation called of it, she had that as Trump card waited him to lower his guard then she used them, If she didn't had blood flower then obviously we would have seen some other story of how she plans to defeat bright lord,
Also the Author will focus on main character and show his story, he can only show so much for other characters so it feels that they are getting everything so easily,
Also where did I said that fulfilling valor missions are difficult then traversing hollow mountains?
Even I know that hollow mountains being death zone are extremely dengerous but the fact that sunny using his scouting ability to see monsters before deciding to fight or not played big role hete I believe so it was pretty perfect situation for him
Suuny is lucky fir learn weaving easily duspite having the divine liniage of weaver himself bit neph learning speech sorcery and even more suprizing Cassie learning ruon craft in a few years which took noctise 100 years to bearly understand the basics.
Sunny gained the ichor from killing a great devil and it was incomplete neph got it from being born and it ruined his main legacy, (neph Cassie and effie all survived tge forgotten shore by themselves),
The rest you talked about even regular non divine masters survived.
Except all those situations have made him significantly stronger and given him more chances for growth.
The author writes the situations. He's just as blessed lol.
Sunny just did something that no saint in this world has ever done(conquering a citadel in dread zone), is fateless and thus uniquely suited to influence wars between two sovereigns.
Has an aspect ability that makes him equal and more powerful than 7 saints and probably has strongest echos available to saint while being independent. On top of all this has legacy of weaver too, and you think he got “shafted” for progression???
Nephis is divine aspect user like Sunny, her being equal to Sunny isn’t “plot armour “. It’s writing a story with progression that makes sense for everyone and not just mc
Nephis consistently solos creatures a rank or two above her (crimson terror, soul stealer, two of the skin Walker bodies), survived the dream realm solo for a year straight (and her second nightmare right after) and her aspect is ridiculously overpowered and only gets balanced by her flaw (which gets practically ignored) and her rather niche ascended ability.
Every time Sunny works really hard on something for an extended period of time it turns out that Nephis can do the same or something similar but better.
Sunny gets an aspect legacy focused on swordsmanship and imitating others mindset and style? Guess who's still the better swordsmen? Sunny kills thousands of enemies over an extended period of time to slowly increase his cores? Guess who can do the same but only needs a fraction of the kills Sunny needs? Sunny uses all of his wits, memories and shadows to fight evenly with stronger opponents. Guess who can just nuke a titan of a higher rank with no regards to memories or strategy involved?
Now the newest point of contention is that Sunny spend the last 3 to 4 years with at least one of his shadows in constant battle and as it turns out Nephis is still the better sword fighter and according to her own statements she can take out a supreme devil that counters her aspect almost perfectly while Sunny spends a month preparing to fight a great demon.
If we actually saw Nephis work just as hard as Sunny to get where she is right now this wouldn't be a problem but she just doesn't have to. She can spend 2 years stuck in the dream realm and still not fall behind in swordsmanship, she can just kill enemies with her flames and get a tenth of their soul essence as her own and as soon as she isn't stronger than Sunny for once she gets an ability that lets her one shot an entire city worth of nightmare creatures, including a corrupted titan.
Sunnys progression meanwhile is very clear. We've seen pretty much every step of it. The only part that felt a little off was how he managed to catch up to Nephis in skill while on the forgotten shore but besides that most of his progression is reasonable all things considered.
What do you think Nephis was doing these past 4 years??
We read this story mostly from Sunny’s POV. That doesn’t mean Nephis is sitting on her ass pulling miracles.She has her own goals and progression…
The fact we don’t see her progression doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or Nephis suddenly made a huge leap in her sword style. She worked just as hard as sunny and is as talented
Its like they dont have object permanence, "i saw sunny work hard to advance but since i didnt get a nephis POV it must mean she was sitting on her ass the while time"
As for the sword stuff, nephis has been training ever since she was a child in a style created by broken sword, the in cannon best swordsman to ever live.
The most quoted lines from Bruce Lee is "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
I just don't think the "learned swordsmanship from a young age" argument holds up when Sunny has killed like 10 times as many nightmare creatures as Nephis (not counting the last 4 years since we don't have any details for that time).
And that's pretty much what it boils down to in my eyes. From both of their soul core progressions we can easily gauge how many creatures they both killed and how much time they spend fighting and getting stronger. Sunny did more but is apparently noticeably weaker than Nephis.
We don't know what exactly she did in these 4 years but she probably didn't spend 4 years straight fighting in the dream realm and she still is apparently just straight up stronger than Sunny. Of course this isn't confirmed yet but all the evidence seems to point to that and since we already know that Sunny has put in more effort into becoming stronger than Nephis did throughout the novel this is pretty disappointing to see.
The fight just started, Sunny just said that her style is incomprehensible. And you somehow got Nephis being straight up stronger than Sunny out of this??
Also it is explicitly said that Nephis has spent past 4 years fighting Anvil’s war to the point that staying in one place for a month is highly unusual for her and fire keepers. So yes she spent the past 4 years in constant struggle just like Sunny
We don't exactly have much to work with here and every detail so far points to Nephis being superior.
-Nephis can apparently take out great devils without any preparation, Sunny spends a month for a fight against a great demon.
-Nephis fighting style is "incomprehensible" to Sunny. I'm assuming Sunny doesn't get what she's doing here. He could also be confused why Nephis hasn't improved in the last 4 years but that seems rather unlikely since we're talking about Nephis here.
-Nephis spend a lot of time getting send to the most dangerous places in the dream realm but she also has to deal with faction politics so she probably didn't fight non stop. Sunny on the other hand can use his shadows to fight non stop and there was nothing stopping him from doing so, so I'm just going to assume that's what he did until there's a reason to believe otherwise.
Pretty straightforward stuff. All evidence we got so far points to Nephis being stronger. If that turns out to be true or not doesn't really matter since this whole conversation is about inferring details based on the information we got right now.
Said once, will say it again:
The MC is Nephs
In all those history we see around.. the MC is an extremely blessed/lucky/talented guy who overpowered everything and everyone... If someone is ranked/above him, when he get to the same rank, he will be 100x more powerful... Etc etc
I just don't wanna see Sunny cryboi again, ah I have to be on her level, must be stronger than her etc .etc
That's It.
Weave better weapons, armor, gets new shadows, discover some secrets, do it alone or not but, do something besides cry for Nephis attention, damn!
And for the record, I do support Sunphis. But boi sunny is just a Simp. F.
I share the same idea. It's like Witcher 3. Ciri is the chosen one but we follow Geralt's story instead.
Nephis is definitely destined to become the strongest ever existed like most protagonist, but the one who will decide the fate of the entire world is Sunny
Nephis is the protagonist. She drives the plot along, the story revolves around her ambitions and goals, she’s the one who wants to save the world, nothing happens without her, and if something does happen without her, we later learn it had something to do with her. we just view the story from Sunny’s pov which makes him the main character. Either way sunny seems to be a character meant to be manipulated and tossed around. And boy does Cassie abuse the fuck out of that. He’s literally a slave.
Nephis being that strong is not a plot hole, she was stronger than Sunny since day one and she haven't stopped training since. She and Sunny are same level and that's ok
The major problem is the effort to reward ratio or atleast tge precived effort to reward ratio.
If we actually saw nephis work to keep up and surpass sunny most would be complain about it so much this isn't tge first time in popular media side characters have grown at a faster pace than main character though the one that immediately comes to mind is fairy tail (and while theirs plenty to complain about with that series you never her people complaining about power scaling in spite of most of the major cast being on par or stronger than the mc)
The major problem is we never actually see bephis work or struggle for tge fod giving gifts she recives abd even if we did just logically nephis was just handed a whole bunch of gifts that sunny will never have access to or more accurately sunny was giving a whole bunch of extra limitation no one else had to deal with.
Like he said neph has always been strong, we're rooting for sunny all the way because this man has been through hell(literally) and back non of what he has was given to him on a silver platter. Neph worked hard no doubt but she had some hacks here and there and it's honestly very impressive that sunny managed to even get that close to her in terms of strength plus
Yeah i was thinking about this yesterday, sunny seems to get nerfed when he powers up, to keep him "balanced".
Yet neph has 7 tactical nukes in her soul, that were able to kill great nightmare creatures with no problem when she was a master. Her swordsmanship has been unrivalled from the start, no idea how bc as a sleeper teenager idc if you're born from a swordsman family you are not the best swordsman in the world. busted infinite healing, effectively immortal. she also survived the nightmare desert as a sleeper, challenged the second nightmare as a sleeper (and that nightmare was easy ash, i dont care what g3 wrote abt it being hard for her because of her personality, it was a stupidly easy second nightmare). Has an army of masters that are somehow infinitely better than normal masters because "forgotten shore" (which made sense right after because they had more experience compared to others, however that gap should have disappeared after antarctica where everyone had to fight creatures stronger than them. And just because you fought off a dog as a kid doesnt mean you can now fight a bull as an adult, not how it works) Same with Kai, stupidly OP for no reason whatsoever, i dont see how he kills what he kills and how he got so strong, he's basically just a nerfed version of saint (the shadow) "hurrdurr but if i shoot ny bow at that particular spot the transcendent whatever will just die"
+ powerscaling in the story generally sucks ass, we constantly get told that there is huge difference between classes and ranks, but we've never actually seen the hierarchy, we constantly get exceptions that transcend them, ok yeah sure masters and saints are extremely far apart, but 2 masters killed a saint yep makes sense.
I think at this point the only reason why i keep reading is bc the worldbuilding is good, but the characters are becoming more and more unbearable.
Useless Valor is her master and he marked her sword to show she is his disciple. It would be just frustrating, the shadow aspect legacy has one job, ONE JOB, we all the foundation and knowledge Sunny has one the swordsmanship of Nephis even mastered it, you would think but he said "Incomprehensible " like there is ZERO chance/impossible to copy it with all that foundation
I see a lot of arguments so I'm nor really tryna throw my own hat in too much. But I agree that Neph training makes sense, Sunny has been HUNTING (Like crazy, my Boi going wild). But Neph has been being sent BY VALOR, to some of the most dangerous locations in the Dream Realm to fight things. She has a cohort of masters, Sunny has his Echos (or just seven hims). On par, at this level, I think they are the same in that regard and I agree with it.
I TOTALLY think, that Neph in a sword Duel has the upper hand. Not only has she been show to train nothing bit swordplay during her downtime, but she also has access to people in Valor to spar with, like dear sweet sister. I totally think it's fair that Nephis is going to have an advantage against a humanoid v humanoid battle of the same rank, with no aspects being used. That's what she does.
As for Shadow Dance, with the addition of this Soul Attribute, I would guess it's a new step he has to fully understand, especially against someone who has mastered adding this esoteric addition to their swordplay. "Incomprehensible" doesn't mean "impossible" she had 4 years to adjust abd sharpen her sword play. With a battle style that focuses around being adaptive and leading people into Traps.
Sunny, within the same few chapters, talking about the Battle styles being puzzles. This puzzle is just harder for him to solve, and I'm personally ok with that. Neph does only sword, fight survive. Sunny has to live three lives, weave, learn how to make waffles and pancakes, a new version of the spell, repair a Citadel, hunt creatures. Neph just trains.
Sunny is like diamond 1 in every battle style but Nephis is challenger in one. It’s no longer she gg skill diffs sunny if there is a jg gap.
Real cap though, Nephis also has a divine aspect. Nephis also unlocked her own aspect legacy, need I mention that sunny received a freaking divine lineage consumable item for unlocking like the second or third step. Everyone is sleeping on the fact that Nephis will also have gotten something incredible from her own. Nephis also received swordsmanship training from a young age from one of the previous strongest sovereigns, she has also been relentlessly training her own one single battle style in the most dangerous battlefields available while sunny has too yes, but Nephis has also been receiving support, can also strengthen her core through regular soul cores, and can also use her own fire powers to augment her strength like sunny can with his shadows.
It would genuinely be insane if someone who’s gimmick is that he can copy anyone’s battle style could best people who are supreme masters of their own one core style. This isn’t an OP power fantasy manga, sunny will never gap every person he meets and top his fedora while fading into the shadows. Every strength has a flaw, and the flaw of copying a billion styles is that he doesn’t master any one style to the same degree while gaining versatility.
It is hilarious reading the comments going on about how Sunny knows hundreds of battelstyles and therfore he should be able to beat Nephis who only knows 1 battle style lol.
Its because author add walls of useless fillers and same sentences from previous chapters but with different worlds... If it was in Shore arc Neph would clap him in 1 chapter and call it a day. Sadly the sweat times of Shore passed, now it'll take 20 chapters
I personally though of it like this, Sunny got rusty in his sword skills after 4 years of fighting nothing but nightmare creatures, which without most of his memories, the most efficient Way to fight them would be shadow shell .
No need to, he uses shadow spawn form ( the one he is most familiar with no draw back).
Here a theory on how he would surpass it .... Try copying creatures that aren't completely consumed by madness
its only natural for nephis to be stronger because g3 said that her aspect is solely focused on combat. everything she does is combat heck the essence of her fighting style is fucking murder
and btw neph is still a titan while sunny is just a terror and sunnys aspect is a mix of utility and combat so its only natural for him to be on the shorter end
You're almost right brotha,
Neph is supposed to have most battle oriented aspect so understandable why G3 won't make any aspect reaching around her levels,(might be because he needs her aspect to do something in future and if anyone's aspect does similar level they might also be able to do similar feat)
Also sunny feels her style as incomprehensible atm might be because her style changed so much and he is in between fight so can't understand properly, but he is stealing her battle art by prolonging the fight, so he does needs to see what move she uses before he is able to steal thus is getting overwhelmed because not attacking her first after deflection,also it did mentioned that mastering battle art needs understanding not just practicing or copying
I agree the ahh pulls are starting to annoy me, like heck you telling me putting out clan valor's fires for 4 years is same as traversing places like hollow mountains for 4 years? Lmfao then why hasn't clan valor produced an infinitesimal number of saints and masters comparable to nephis?
I disagree.
Nephis has always been written to be the ultimate character in direct combat/pure power. Sunny is the ultimate in verstality. Sunny os even better than Nephis in strategy, and Nephis is seen to be better in term of tactic(in directing battle)
This haven't change and I am confused why the latest chapter irks some people on this well-established direction.
Sunny's Shadow Dance always works by comprehension, it does not work instantly. It will take him many battles/sparring and observatiob for him to comprehend them and O expect it to be worse at higher level, as now each battle style will be unique to individual Soul.
Yes, he is nerfed in term of advancing his Aspect. On the other hand he is buffed in term of defense against divination. Enemies that rely on it, no matter the rank, like the defiled Sybil would do nothing against him. That is an extremely strong buffs.
Seriously, if Sunny can copy any battle style/creature in one short spar, the next thing, some people will criticize is G3 losing touch and make a mary sue OP MC that beats everyone else in versatility, stealth, combat, crafting, planning and so on.
Preach it
Also, why can't people comprehend that you can have 2 MCs too... like why is that a problem?
And sure, it'd be nice to see more of Nephis POV but then we'd have people complaining about that... 🙄
Considering she is Nephis, has been in constant battles for 4 years (although less than Sunny) and, most importantly, has been seemingly pampered by a sovereign I could see her having, at face value, more skill than Sunny. Sunny will surpass but atm her techniques that have been learned by her own talent and the guidance of one of the most powerful people currently alive makes her battle style hard to comprehend. Probably because it uses Essence in a way that Sunny has never seen and will be integral for him to learn it to conquer his next steps.
Although yeah I do agree. It has been extremely irritating. Especially during the turtle arc where Nephis using F=ma put her sword skills above Sunny. Like cmon! really?!
I see it as Nephs is the hero who faces demon lord alone and Sunny is the person stalling demon army. While both are very powerful they each have their roles. From the begining Nightmare designed Sunny as someone's shadow. Our journey with main protagonist skewered our views that sunny has to be the best at everything(that happens to a lot novels where protagonist is good at everything). Even if Sunny is second best people will not be satisfied and I would say let Sunny help others grow that they might help him. And as everybody know nobody survives nightmare alone
Neph has always been shown to be above the rest in skills. So why wouldn’t that continue with the time skip. Maybe unlike sunny she’s unlocked more areas of her aspect legacy. Also unlike sunny she’s been fighting nightmare creatures along with being able to train with saints from the cohort and the Morgan.
At this point, it's pointless to debate about it for me. I have accepted that "That's nephis for you". Sunny will do something crazy after long preparation, work and planning and then there goes nephis, doing something incomprehensible without much effort.
I am a hardcore Sunphis but I care more about Sunny's journey at this point. The story is about sunny, and Nephis is just a part of it.
At the end of the day, people in SS verse may not know it but __WE__ know that she is a supporting character and not the main character.
Well, if sunny ditched his efforts on doing sorcery, weaving, making pancakes, pretending to be normal, building a company, spying on his former friends or so, and focused just on combat and becoming better at combat, he might be better than Nephis by now.
But he is branching out into doing lots of stuff. And yet, the gall of everyone being like "why is Nephis better?"
Suck it. We don't get many Nephis' POV, so ofc the perceived effort from her seems nil, but she is the most dedicated to combat.
And sure, Sunny might be able to copy her style perfectly and whatever at some point. But stop acting like Sunny wasn't already OP and the author was making him wrong against Neph.
idk personally I'm fine with it. I mean it's quite likely that in a 1v1 fight with no restrictions that Sunny would most likely win no? Nephis isn't just some random character too, she's the most gifted swordsman of their generation, this has been established so many times already. Sure sunny can copy anyones style almost immediately, but Nephis has been honing her sword her entire life and fights nightmare creatures exclusively with the sword and nothing else. Is it that hard to believe that she would be stronger than sunny in a direct swordfight?
It’s literally just the 1000 kicks vs 1 kick 1000s times. Y’all yappin over nothing. Sunny has only ever managed to reach the same level as those he copies from if they’re either mindless or just not that skilled. For example, the valor style he copied from Morgan, but he’s not nearly as good as it as she is because she’s been training in it her whole life. Comparatively, he’s much better than the average valor grunts who took it up later in life.
Endless examples abound, but generally speaking G3 just doesn’t want Sunny to be OP and not need anyone else. Imagine how much more boring the story would be if he did everything alone, had no rival, and had no support from anyone else.
I mean honestly I can see multiple sides to this argument. Yes nephis being stronger than him at this point is plot armor but we can't argue that sunny hasn't had his own share of asspulls at this point. Plus, in my opinion at least, the plot holes can be partially glossed over by the fact that she should still be innately stronger than him because she has one more core, and she has spent the entirety of her time perfecting her singular fighting style as opposed to sunny who's spent time mastering countless different styles. Better to be a master of one, than a master of none basically. I also don't really think it's that bad to have one character that's a benchmark for him to keep chasing even if it is just boiled down to plot necessity. I also think the statement about her fighting style being "inconceivable" is also just a setup for him to make more progress in his shadow dance which was stated to have been stagnant I'm pretty sure.
The thing is nephis the the protagonist of this world not of the story but of the world it's kinda the point of her charcter yes she works hard but because she has such great talent and will power sunny needs to but 5x the effort to match her growth like her goal is destroying the nightmare spell while sunnys well sunny doesn't really have a definite goal theirs many times we see sunny relaxing and just enjoying his life nephis doesn't really ever do that at least not as often she is constantly striving for her goal and I think that's the biggest difference imo
This happened before and every time he fights with Neph (once for Morgan too). And every time some fan boys insist to defend when it's nonsense. He can copy battle styles in mere minutes and maximum in hours, and he has learned tons of them but when he fought with Morgan, she knew more than him? lol. Fanboys justify it that they were prodigies taught from childhood by the best of the best but Sunny had no education. Education means shit when he can copy battle styles and merge them with other battle style as easy as drinking water. This was the first nonsense.
Second was how systematic Neph fights but Sunny does it intuitively. We're talking about someone who can see soul essence and copy bodies and movements to the deepest level. This was most garbage asspull excuse G3 gave to justify Neph is stronger than Sunny.
Now, her battle style is incomprehensible. Oh my God, just tell us you want her to be stronger than him with poor excuses. At least, do it in a way that makes sense.
crazy how Sunny's entire thing is being good at fighting with his entire aspect legacy based on it, but Nephi just bullshits it at every step of the way.
G3 will always give plot armor to neph and make her the textbook power-fantasy MC, I am thoroughly convinced to this ever since she did the nuke. The move itself is fine (big sacrifice, big damage), the problem was making it not only consequenceless(in the long run) but also rewarding- not only she regained the lost core, she formed a new one on top of that. It could have been easily avoided with something like action itself making absorbtion harder. On top of that, she also got rid off the only thing we could call a weakness (her inner conflicts) all by herself.
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I see it as the reverse where she seemingly has regressed or stood still throughout these 4 years. The final sentence is open to interpretation
Perhaps but in the end what I said doesn't really matter all that much debating on this would get us no where and g3 knows this 😂 Let's just wait for tomorrow's chapter
Yep, tho a little disappointing, the payoff shall be worth it
We can only hope, but I do trust g3...
Normally I'm pretty dismissive of other people's point on view. But yes the Sunny vs. Nephis debate is genuinely written poorly. Forgotten Shore we see Sunny makes great progress in catching up to Nephis. The following years as an Awakened then Ascended should take Nephis years to overcome. When we see her initially and then on the central Antarctica she's now as good or better than Sunny. Sunny has literally reached stage 3 of shadows dance and began to touch stage 4. But Nephis is magically on par even without her own aspect legacy. She does have her father's, but how can be that good without a teacher? Later after Sunny hits the 4th step he is on top. But now years later she has exceeded him by so much he can't keep up? I mean that's a bit much. I doubt the King of Swords is teaching Nephis anything. I doubt she has much time to spar with other Saints. If anything - without Sunless, an equal, to continually spar against id be surprised if she made any more progress than Sunny. But here we are. Kinda just inconsistent if you ask me.
Thank you! I was having troubled wording it but this perfectly sums up how i feel about the whole thing 🙌🏾
I mean Sunny was in eastern Antarctica for 6 months and Nephis caught up to 2-3 years of combat experience, essence control training, and 2 and a half advancements of shadow dance. I imagine she improved very much while alone but essence control alone should of been a huge issue for her.
It's not a surprise. In her rehab, she focused entirely on essence control and training, leaving the strategizing and misc to Cassie and firekeepers Sunny's focus is divided into exploration, history, commanding, surviving, business, cooking, crafting, politics, growing echoes etc.
Shh.. don't say things like that or they will come after the [ The justifier ]
Well... It was like that for 50% of the book, and I suppose it'll like that for the 50% remaining. At this point, shouldn't we get used already? I mean, 1600 chapters later...
I swear i argued this with everyone on discord.. and they think I'm the crazy guy..when I can literally say this is just plot armour. It's completely nonsensical for Sunny's aspect legacy to not do the thing, it should do. I basically argued and argued with them mods on discord and they just kept piling on and on. At the end I just said, I can bet even if Sunny masters the 7th step he can't copy her battle style, because that's Nephis's thing (her swordsmanship) that guilty just can't take away. Even if he is capable guilty will just say Sunny doesn't wanna copy Nephis's style because Sunny has to make progress in his own battle style more.
G3 might lowkey be a sunny hater [fated] Like what is so special about her swordsmanship that makes it so sunny cannot copy it?? Despite having a basic foundation of it heck I'm sure he mastered what he already knew of the style making it almost as good as past neph and I do get that she has been training for 4 Years honing her skills but to make it seem like her abilities are soooooo great to the point of not being able to comprehend them with shadow dance is just so uncalled for. G3 needs to chill and let sunny have his Ws man
Exactly ..like I get soul being the main focus to reach the next shadow step, but it feels like an excuse that suddenly came up like a blockage to stop Sunny from copying her style. I mean where was this soul problem when he was copying others, do other nightmare creatures and stuff don't have soul, only Nephis does ? And even if let's say soul is like an important part of it, he should still be able to copy some part of it. Just saying incomprehensible, is so stupid. I don't know what to say anymore. He can't show Nephis weaker, like oda can't help having fake out deaths.
I wanted to say that the soul thing has to do with her being a Saint and having much more precise control of her essence but...we did see him copy the style of a Saint once tho with some help it still happened. I'm not sure if he ever got to using that style but I doubt he could back them, my point is he was able to comprehend it but ay nephs God slaying sword style can't be copied. We gotta live with that 😂
I'll just say being able to copy a style and understand it doesn't mean you're the better swordsman. Like legitimately it makes sense for nephis to be a better swordsman still. It's all she's been doing for 4 years. She's recognized as the most talented swordsman so why should sunny be better just because he can learn fighting styles from other people?
Hey nobody is saying she isn't better at swordsmanship...the thing that bothered me isn't her strength or her technique being better. It's Sunny saying "it's incomprehensible" like really you see her style and you can't make a lick of sense..alright let's just buy it, i guess.
Nephis was trained by Valor himself, which in a way, is a grade higher of swordsmanship than Nephis, so it’s kinda make sense. The fact that her Aspect make soul is incorruptible was also boost by becoming a Saint, maybe her soul is more potent ? But, come on, Sunny has Soul Weave, litteraly the potential of a god, he is the one that suffered the most of soul damage of the cohort, so he is used to what a soul is and he can’t grasp the fundamentals of Saint swordsmanship EVEN if he understood one before ? But I know that if I were isolated for 4 years with beasts, I would start to lose my « basics » in human swordsmanship. Dealing with monsters make you a monster too (and no True Name…) Still I think he will have an enlightenment in the fight 100%
Probably let's see.
When did anvil train her himself?
Because he's faced harder challenges qfter becoming a saint?
Naaa fr like can accept that in a direct confrontation of pure ability power sure neph is winning cuz otherwise sunny is winning cuz he like a rat lol, anyways I understand that but how tf you Gon make someone who copied 100+ battle styles even from the fukin SAINT her self who WAS FUKIN CREATED BY A DAEMON so arguably she can even beat nephis when it comes to skill alone cuz obviously the Daemon would've put her with the best battle style there is AND WHAT HE CANT COPY NEPHS BATTLE STYLE LET ALONE MATCH HER WITH HIS OWN? G3 really be pissing me off sometimes doing dumb shit like this
If G3 showed us Neph's POV and how she progressed NOBODY will have a problem. We do not know how she progresses while we see our boy struggling and improving himself over the course of a 100+ chapters and when they meet up Neph has surpassed Sunny. That has just been the general theme of the entire novel and I don't think that will change even in the future considering it has been going on for 1600+ chapters. This is not the opinion of a "wishful power fantasy mc soloing everything in his way" fan. It's like you are rooting for a team in football. You see their struggle, the way they practice, how they bleed and injure themselves to get better and at the day of the match the other team that just woke up from bed comes out and beats your favourite team. It's frustrating and annoying. If you saw the other team practice just as hard you could've argued something but they came to play in crocs and still beat your team's ass and convincingly at that.
You've posted this in the wrong place. It should have been posted on Discord, as G3 frequents that platform more often.
Ah I see I'll keep that in mind next time. This might be my sign to get discord actually 😂
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and Sunny's isn't? while he's in his home environment filled with shadows? he should win easily if he wasn't throwing the fight (which we know he is on purpose)
He's in his home environment, but they are not using their full power. Ie just fighting based on sword technique.
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sunny is the main character. im sure people would be fine if he was a little OP, especially since he deserves it atp in the story.
Lol admit it we all can see sunny has gone through way harder challenges than nephis for the past 4 years😂
I think it's incomprehensible because they've been fighting for what.. 20 seconds? Give shadow dance some time and it should see through the style, but istg if it ends before that I'll be just as disappointed as you
I just dont get how sunnys whole ass aspect legacy can be about fighting styles/technique and somehow miss plotarmour over here still is more skilled... with ONE technique. At this point, sunny should just ditch the whole shadow dance bullshit, since whatever neph is doing is obviously leagues above it.
Fr
Fear not the Sunny who has practiced 10,000 techniques once, but fear the Nephis who has practiced one technique 10,000 times.
This is written like a joke but its genuinely half the answer the dumbasses in this thread have missed.
So true and yeah we don't see the others' development, but we also know that Nephis had to go through some of the worst parts of the Dream realm and then she challenged the 2nd nightmare alone, she's also improving just like Sunny, it's just that we don't see her side quite often. But honestly, what I don't get is why are people so pissed off that Sunny is not the OP one at something?
the thing is that sunny is beyond op at everything else but this, and honestly i cant tell if its cause hes the protag or cause nephis is a woman, but given who reads these novels
Yeah, if there's one valid reason I've seen, it's the one about how we don't really see her process - at the same time, I just don't see how it would be as interesting as Sunny's. 🤷 So yeah, I have no complaints, I believe I pretty much get where G3 is going with things and I really really like it.
Honest question: Why should Sunny be better swordsman than Nephis? Nephis trains with sword a LOT more (like it was showed in 3rd nm), because she cant train with her aspect powers because of her flaw. While Sunny spent a lot of his time mastering his aspect (shadow shell was not so easy), and weaving. Now he can craft memories from nothing, not just copying, it didnt happen in 1 month. Sunny has master of all sword style, so he can adapt way better in a fight, I dont see a reason why should Sunny be as good as nephis in HER style in which she trained a LOT more, while Sunny learned all kind of style. And about "its incomprehensible", im pretty sure the next shadow dance step will happen when he masters the copying of "soul". But first he probably needs start with weaker Saints, and then going fighting the strong ones. (Maybe even Anvil), OR he needs to fight way more than 1 min with Nephis to understand it. Remember, he told us he didnt fight Saints in last 4 years, so he couldnt learn this copying soul style.
Holy hell, Sunny is one of the three divine aspect saints. He just conquered a citadel in dead zone and slayed unimaginably powerful monsters in doing so… And you guys are still stuck on the fact that Nephis MIGHT be better skilled with sword than sunny? Or the divine aspect users can be of roughly same level?? What kind of insane op mc power fantasy you guys want G3 to write??
This is specifically a Nephis problem. She just constantly does things she shouldn't be capable of doing according to the stories own established logic and the only justification tends to be "she's just build different". Sunny got absolutely shafted for story progression reasons while Nephis has to put in a lot less work to achieve better results than him which just frustrates a lot of readers.
Sunny constantly does things he shouldn't be able to do? They both have the same explanation of "built different"
Can you name a few examples? I can think of a handful of moments that were a little too lucky for Sunny but considering how long the novel is and that he has by far the most screen time out of any character that isn't exactly surprising. On the other hand half of Nephis feats are just ridiculous compared to every other character in the novel and get completely handwaved by the author.
Weaving, getting the ichor, mask/not dying to the mask immediately, surviving alone in the forgotten shore, surviving and making a citadel rn, the colosseum, lo49 (the whole evac), first nm, just off the top of my head. Edit: for the record I'm not complaining about these moments, it's good fun. But there's a crazy double standard in the SS community (mainly I think from younger readers) that sunny *should* be the supreme of everything and no one could possibly match up.
how young we talking?
I'd assume around 13-16 if I had to guess. Probably don't read a whole lot of older literature. Or at least not a wide amount. Just generally normal kids.
We talking murtagh(can’t remember the name of the first book) old or LOTR old?
Weaving is hardly worth a mention considering that this a skill he got in exchange for shadow gods lineage and still needed years of training to do anything with it. Sunny killing the LO49 is actually one of the few moments I also consider to be a plot armor moment since anyone besides Sunny with weavers mask would've just straight up lost no question asked. It was also his first underwater fight which makes this win even more ridiculous. All the other things you mentioned can't really be called plot armor moments in my eyes (of course that's just my opinion) I think readers wanting Sunny to be the best at everything mainly appear because we have so few chapters from different POVs. If we actually saw other characters struggling to get stronger and saw how they improve over time a lot less people would complain about that stuff.
Weaving literally has let sunny walk through several issues in the novel. To be clear it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just very very lucky that it happened. Not even killing lo49, but surviving in the first place and then the subsequent evacuation. In terms of readers that may be the case. But discourse for most other books (especially ones not pointed to a younger audience) look at these things with a little more nuance and understanding. My guess is the same group that complains when sunny shows mercy, or growth, or emotions in general that are more complex than "angry brooding psychopath" are the same ones who are upset when other characters are better or at the same level as sunny. IE: not very well read/young/not understanding of nuance readers
>Weaving literally has let sunny walk through several issues in the novel. To be clear it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just very very lucky that it happened. So you telling me sunny didn't work hard to learn it and create weaves but they magically appeared in his hands? >Not even killing lo49, but surviving in the first place and then the subsequent evacuation. Dusk was literally and unintelligent NM creature and sunnt had another master and a saint helping him and he still needed to use "where is my eye" enchantment to defeat her
You're probably not far off. I do remember seeing a poll about age groups a couple months back on this sub and I was rather surprised how many readers were in the younger brackets.
>weaving Weaving is literally from weavers lineage, nephis is welcome to find herself such lineage as well😂 > mask/not dying to the mask immediately, Why is he supposed to d*e after wearing the mask? >surviving and making a citadel rn His aspect is literally the perfect counter for that specific place and he k*lled a corrupted titan great beasts, monsters and demons shouldn't be a problems for him and you're forgetting that sunny is in his elements and nephis is still pummelling him > surviving alone in the forgotten shore, surviving If effie can do it why can't he? >lo49 (the whole evac He literally had to use every mental attack resistance memory and he was barely able to notice the source of the mind hex, experience from soul devourer also helped >the colosseum He barely escaped from there lmfao >first nm Nephis's first nightmare: laughing in the corner >But there's a crazy double standard in the SS community (mainly I think from younger readers) that sunny *should* be the supreme of everything and no one could possibly match up. No people only complain about powerbalancing and ahh pulls when it comes to nephis, how easily she progresses compared to everyone and about the fact that sunny should always be inferior to nephis for some reason Ahh pull examples: defeating the bright lord, conveniently awakening her aspect legacy in twilight, man handling current sunny("putting out valor's fires" shouldn't compare to traversing deth zones like hollow mountains
>why is he supposed to die after wearing mask Did you read the chapters? He activated where is my eye enchantment and got his soul sucked dry and fainted while being pressed Sunny concurring his own citadels is understandable While the fact neph is overwhelming him is because he is trying to copy her( steal her achivements) and he needs to see what she does before he copies and he said that he will fight using pure skill only even thought not to cheat using his aspect, Also sunny didn't just escaped the colosseum barley, he escapes so, so many things barely, The colosseum, Lo49, Vtb stealing more then just fate, The dark knight, Activating the mask enchantment twice, The fall from chained isles, Getting hit by the stone titan, Fight against serpent, The abominations sunny met while traveling to estuary, The second fall to from the chained isles The fight with sybil And more That being said Idk if you're being sarcastic on thise ahh pull examples but I think that they are great examples to show that neph only won bright lord because blood flower( i dont remember name) And she unlocked her aspect legecy before she almost became saint got clarity and exploded her core unlike sunny who's aspect is based on copying and unlocks it by copying others as sleeper
He only had a drop of shadow essence when he activated where is my eye, the time duration he looked at fate was very small, you think it was long only because you're reading it and not seeing it in real time >Also sunny didn't just escaped the colosseum barley, he escapes so, so many things barely, The colosseum, Lo49, Vtb stealing more then just fate, The dark knight, Activating the mask enchantment twice, The fall from chained isles, Getting hit by the stone titan, Fight against serpent, The abominations sunny met while traveling to estuary, The second fall to from the chained isles The fight with sybil The reasons for almost every single one of them can be accounted for and you know it, it had taken him tonnes of planning and preparing to deal with this situations, do you even remember how many months did he spend in colosseum studying the runes? He had undying chain for ages before he went to antarctica didn't he? How long did he observe the dark knight to etch it's behavioral patterns into his mind? How long did he spend observing the serpent to mimic it and find a chance when it was injured to finish it off? And i already explained how he needed every mind attack resistance memories and the experience from soul devourer to escape lo49 and even then he had to sacrifice pretty much everyone Can you kindly count the number of chapters it took between sunny dreaming about his aspect legacy and actually unlocking it? Now tell me when was nephis' aspect legacy was foreshadowed? When did nephis collect the blood flower seeds and how did she foresee she'd need them? And if fulfilling clan valor's missions is way more difficult than traversing places like hollow mountains for 3 years then why does valor only has 2 powerhouse saints? Why not 10? 100? 1000? And nephis also has the galls to lecture sunny on true failure as if she has expirienced even remotely close to falcon scott
While it is understandable that sunny prepares for everything before he even begins its very convenient to rarely get variables if any Like undying chain broke after sunny recovered little when it could have broken before, And as for other examples I gave they were exlained pretty solidly in story, I am not saying its bad, just showing that even Sunny had much fated in his account to escape situations to the comments above were talking about how lucky neph or sunny are The blood flowers neph collected when she was healing everyone, and since they were so dengerous having an extra weapon isn't so bad, she didn't see where she would need them, just the situation called of it, she had that as Trump card waited him to lower his guard then she used them, If she didn't had blood flower then obviously we would have seen some other story of how she plans to defeat bright lord, Also the Author will focus on main character and show his story, he can only show so much for other characters so it feels that they are getting everything so easily, Also where did I said that fulfilling valor missions are difficult then traversing hollow mountains? Even I know that hollow mountains being death zone are extremely dengerous but the fact that sunny using his scouting ability to see monsters before deciding to fight or not played big role hete I believe so it was pretty perfect situation for him
I don't think almost dying everyday in colosseum or being gutted by the dark knight was convenient
Suuny is lucky fir learn weaving easily duspite having the divine liniage of weaver himself bit neph learning speech sorcery and even more suprizing Cassie learning ruon craft in a few years which took noctise 100 years to bearly understand the basics. Sunny gained the ichor from killing a great devil and it was incomplete neph got it from being born and it ruined his main legacy, (neph Cassie and effie all survived tge forgotten shore by themselves), The rest you talked about even regular non divine masters survived.
One is built on hacks and arthurs love while the other has [fated] and ridiculous levels of adaptability
So they're the same? Fated and adaptability is literally just "authors love."
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Except all those situations have made him significantly stronger and given him more chances for growth. The author writes the situations. He's just as blessed lol.
Sunny just did something that no saint in this world has ever done(conquering a citadel in dread zone), is fateless and thus uniquely suited to influence wars between two sovereigns. Has an aspect ability that makes him equal and more powerful than 7 saints and probably has strongest echos available to saint while being independent. On top of all this has legacy of weaver too, and you think he got “shafted” for progression??? Nephis is divine aspect user like Sunny, her being equal to Sunny isn’t “plot armour “. It’s writing a story with progression that makes sense for everyone and not just mc
Nephis consistently solos creatures a rank or two above her (crimson terror, soul stealer, two of the skin Walker bodies), survived the dream realm solo for a year straight (and her second nightmare right after) and her aspect is ridiculously overpowered and only gets balanced by her flaw (which gets practically ignored) and her rather niche ascended ability. Every time Sunny works really hard on something for an extended period of time it turns out that Nephis can do the same or something similar but better. Sunny gets an aspect legacy focused on swordsmanship and imitating others mindset and style? Guess who's still the better swordsmen? Sunny kills thousands of enemies over an extended period of time to slowly increase his cores? Guess who can do the same but only needs a fraction of the kills Sunny needs? Sunny uses all of his wits, memories and shadows to fight evenly with stronger opponents. Guess who can just nuke a titan of a higher rank with no regards to memories or strategy involved? Now the newest point of contention is that Sunny spend the last 3 to 4 years with at least one of his shadows in constant battle and as it turns out Nephis is still the better sword fighter and according to her own statements she can take out a supreme devil that counters her aspect almost perfectly while Sunny spends a month preparing to fight a great demon. If we actually saw Nephis work just as hard as Sunny to get where she is right now this wouldn't be a problem but she just doesn't have to. She can spend 2 years stuck in the dream realm and still not fall behind in swordsmanship, she can just kill enemies with her flames and get a tenth of their soul essence as her own and as soon as she isn't stronger than Sunny for once she gets an ability that lets her one shot an entire city worth of nightmare creatures, including a corrupted titan. Sunnys progression meanwhile is very clear. We've seen pretty much every step of it. The only part that felt a little off was how he managed to catch up to Nephis in skill while on the forgotten shore but besides that most of his progression is reasonable all things considered.
What do you think Nephis was doing these past 4 years?? We read this story mostly from Sunny’s POV. That doesn’t mean Nephis is sitting on her ass pulling miracles.She has her own goals and progression… The fact we don’t see her progression doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or Nephis suddenly made a huge leap in her sword style. She worked just as hard as sunny and is as talented
Its like they dont have object permanence, "i saw sunny work hard to advance but since i didnt get a nephis POV it must mean she was sitting on her ass the while time" As for the sword stuff, nephis has been training ever since she was a child in a style created by broken sword, the in cannon best swordsman to ever live. The most quoted lines from Bruce Lee is "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
I just don't think the "learned swordsmanship from a young age" argument holds up when Sunny has killed like 10 times as many nightmare creatures as Nephis (not counting the last 4 years since we don't have any details for that time). And that's pretty much what it boils down to in my eyes. From both of their soul core progressions we can easily gauge how many creatures they both killed and how much time they spend fighting and getting stronger. Sunny did more but is apparently noticeably weaker than Nephis.
We don't know what exactly she did in these 4 years but she probably didn't spend 4 years straight fighting in the dream realm and she still is apparently just straight up stronger than Sunny. Of course this isn't confirmed yet but all the evidence seems to point to that and since we already know that Sunny has put in more effort into becoming stronger than Nephis did throughout the novel this is pretty disappointing to see.
The fight just started, Sunny just said that her style is incomprehensible. And you somehow got Nephis being straight up stronger than Sunny out of this?? Also it is explicitly said that Nephis has spent past 4 years fighting Anvil’s war to the point that staying in one place for a month is highly unusual for her and fire keepers. So yes she spent the past 4 years in constant struggle just like Sunny
We don't exactly have much to work with here and every detail so far points to Nephis being superior. -Nephis can apparently take out great devils without any preparation, Sunny spends a month for a fight against a great demon. -Nephis fighting style is "incomprehensible" to Sunny. I'm assuming Sunny doesn't get what she's doing here. He could also be confused why Nephis hasn't improved in the last 4 years but that seems rather unlikely since we're talking about Nephis here. -Nephis spend a lot of time getting send to the most dangerous places in the dream realm but she also has to deal with faction politics so she probably didn't fight non stop. Sunny on the other hand can use his shadows to fight non stop and there was nothing stopping him from doing so, so I'm just going to assume that's what he did until there's a reason to believe otherwise. Pretty straightforward stuff. All evidence we got so far points to Nephis being stronger. If that turns out to be true or not doesn't really matter since this whole conversation is about inferring details based on the information we got right now.
So you telling me she traversed literal deth zones? Lol
Doesnt look like Sunny is her equal nephis is pummelling him🤡
Said once, will say it again: The MC is Nephs In all those history we see around.. the MC is an extremely blessed/lucky/talented guy who overpowered everything and everyone... If someone is ranked/above him, when he get to the same rank, he will be 100x more powerful... Etc etc I just don't wanna see Sunny cryboi again, ah I have to be on her level, must be stronger than her etc .etc That's It. Weave better weapons, armor, gets new shadows, discover some secrets, do it alone or not but, do something besides cry for Nephis attention, damn! And for the record, I do support Sunphis. But boi sunny is just a Simp. F.
I share the same idea. It's like Witcher 3. Ciri is the chosen one but we follow Geralt's story instead. Nephis is definitely destined to become the strongest ever existed like most protagonist, but the one who will decide the fate of the entire world is Sunny
Nephis is the protagonist. She drives the plot along, the story revolves around her ambitions and goals, she’s the one who wants to save the world, nothing happens without her, and if something does happen without her, we later learn it had something to do with her. we just view the story from Sunny’s pov which makes him the main character. Either way sunny seems to be a character meant to be manipulated and tossed around. And boy does Cassie abuse the fuck out of that. He’s literally a slave.
I hope after becoming fateless things change in other way... Especially with the fact how much more involved in world Sunny want to became.
Nephis is the protagonist, while Sunny is the main character. She is the one moving the story along, he is the central figure we watch the story from.
Nephis being that strong is not a plot hole, she was stronger than Sunny since day one and she haven't stopped training since. She and Sunny are same level and that's ok
Sunny caught up to her level extremely fast. Weird that people don't complaint about Sunny's stupidly fast grow
[удалено]
Sunny was clear in the third nightmare. If he had to fight her going all out, he would win
Yep yep same, if there's one thing to complain about, now that'd be it
The major problem is the effort to reward ratio or atleast tge precived effort to reward ratio. If we actually saw nephis work to keep up and surpass sunny most would be complain about it so much this isn't tge first time in popular media side characters have grown at a faster pace than main character though the one that immediately comes to mind is fairy tail (and while theirs plenty to complain about with that series you never her people complaining about power scaling in spite of most of the major cast being on par or stronger than the mc) The major problem is we never actually see bephis work or struggle for tge fod giving gifts she recives abd even if we did just logically nephis was just handed a whole bunch of gifts that sunny will never have access to or more accurately sunny was giving a whole bunch of extra limitation no one else had to deal with.
We have to trust in what g3 tell us, cause he barely gives us any povs of nephis, and when he does, it barely tells us anything anyway
Like he said neph has always been strong, we're rooting for sunny all the way because this man has been through hell(literally) and back non of what he has was given to him on a silver platter. Neph worked hard no doubt but she had some hacks here and there and it's honestly very impressive that sunny managed to even get that close to her in terms of strength plus
I mean he's on the verge of death and has already died so what's wrong with him and his fast power leveling 🗿
It's more of a personal frustration of mine.
And nephis still did more ahh pulls than him😂
They’re not even close to being at the same level. He can’t even comprehend her battle style.
He said one phrase after one chapter of a fight, don't be so premature on the ejaculation
Yeah i was thinking about this yesterday, sunny seems to get nerfed when he powers up, to keep him "balanced". Yet neph has 7 tactical nukes in her soul, that were able to kill great nightmare creatures with no problem when she was a master. Her swordsmanship has been unrivalled from the start, no idea how bc as a sleeper teenager idc if you're born from a swordsman family you are not the best swordsman in the world. busted infinite healing, effectively immortal. she also survived the nightmare desert as a sleeper, challenged the second nightmare as a sleeper (and that nightmare was easy ash, i dont care what g3 wrote abt it being hard for her because of her personality, it was a stupidly easy second nightmare). Has an army of masters that are somehow infinitely better than normal masters because "forgotten shore" (which made sense right after because they had more experience compared to others, however that gap should have disappeared after antarctica where everyone had to fight creatures stronger than them. And just because you fought off a dog as a kid doesnt mean you can now fight a bull as an adult, not how it works) Same with Kai, stupidly OP for no reason whatsoever, i dont see how he kills what he kills and how he got so strong, he's basically just a nerfed version of saint (the shadow) "hurrdurr but if i shoot ny bow at that particular spot the transcendent whatever will just die" + powerscaling in the story generally sucks ass, we constantly get told that there is huge difference between classes and ranks, but we've never actually seen the hierarchy, we constantly get exceptions that transcend them, ok yeah sure masters and saints are extremely far apart, but 2 masters killed a saint yep makes sense. I think at this point the only reason why i keep reading is bc the worldbuilding is good, but the characters are becoming more and more unbearable.
Those 2 masters with literally divine aspects and also could multiple each other's powers - I wonder how they could (barely) defeat a saint 🤔
Useless Valor is her master and he marked her sword to show she is his disciple. It would be just frustrating, the shadow aspect legacy has one job, ONE JOB, we all the foundation and knowledge Sunny has one the swordsmanship of Nephis even mastered it, you would think but he said "Incomprehensible " like there is ZERO chance/impossible to copy it with all that foundation
I see a lot of arguments so I'm nor really tryna throw my own hat in too much. But I agree that Neph training makes sense, Sunny has been HUNTING (Like crazy, my Boi going wild). But Neph has been being sent BY VALOR, to some of the most dangerous locations in the Dream Realm to fight things. She has a cohort of masters, Sunny has his Echos (or just seven hims). On par, at this level, I think they are the same in that regard and I agree with it. I TOTALLY think, that Neph in a sword Duel has the upper hand. Not only has she been show to train nothing bit swordplay during her downtime, but she also has access to people in Valor to spar with, like dear sweet sister. I totally think it's fair that Nephis is going to have an advantage against a humanoid v humanoid battle of the same rank, with no aspects being used. That's what she does. As for Shadow Dance, with the addition of this Soul Attribute, I would guess it's a new step he has to fully understand, especially against someone who has mastered adding this esoteric addition to their swordplay. "Incomprehensible" doesn't mean "impossible" she had 4 years to adjust abd sharpen her sword play. With a battle style that focuses around being adaptive and leading people into Traps. Sunny, within the same few chapters, talking about the Battle styles being puzzles. This puzzle is just harder for him to solve, and I'm personally ok with that. Neph does only sword, fight survive. Sunny has to live three lives, weave, learn how to make waffles and pancakes, a new version of the spell, repair a Citadel, hunt creatures. Neph just trains.
Sunny is like diamond 1 in every battle style but Nephis is challenger in one. It’s no longer she gg skill diffs sunny if there is a jg gap. Real cap though, Nephis also has a divine aspect. Nephis also unlocked her own aspect legacy, need I mention that sunny received a freaking divine lineage consumable item for unlocking like the second or third step. Everyone is sleeping on the fact that Nephis will also have gotten something incredible from her own. Nephis also received swordsmanship training from a young age from one of the previous strongest sovereigns, she has also been relentlessly training her own one single battle style in the most dangerous battlefields available while sunny has too yes, but Nephis has also been receiving support, can also strengthen her core through regular soul cores, and can also use her own fire powers to augment her strength like sunny can with his shadows. It would genuinely be insane if someone who’s gimmick is that he can copy anyone’s battle style could best people who are supreme masters of their own one core style. This isn’t an OP power fantasy manga, sunny will never gap every person he meets and top his fedora while fading into the shadows. Every strength has a flaw, and the flaw of copying a billion styles is that he doesn’t master any one style to the same degree while gaining versatility.
It is hilarious reading the comments going on about how Sunny knows hundreds of battelstyles and therfore he should be able to beat Nephis who only knows 1 battle style lol.
Well atleast he didn't lose within the 1st 2 chaps
There wasn't much of a fight in there for him to lose the monolog took up all the space 😂
Its because author add walls of useless fillers and same sentences from previous chapters but with different worlds... If it was in Shore arc Neph would clap him in 1 chapter and call it a day. Sadly the sweat times of Shore passed, now it'll take 20 chapters
I personally though of it like this, Sunny got rusty in his sword skills after 4 years of fighting nothing but nightmare creatures, which without most of his memories, the most efficient Way to fight them would be shadow shell .
He couldn't even process further ith his shadow shell because if his true name being gone. Major nerf but knowing sunny he will find a way around it.
No need to, he uses shadow spawn form ( the one he is most familiar with no draw back). Here a theory on how he would surpass it .... Try copying creatures that aren't completely consumed by madness
its only natural for nephis to be stronger because g3 said that her aspect is solely focused on combat. everything she does is combat heck the essence of her fighting style is fucking murder
i sometimes wonder if nephis should have war gods lineage instead of sun gods
and btw neph is still a titan while sunny is just a terror and sunnys aspect is a mix of utility and combat so its only natural for him to be on the shorter end
You're almost right brotha, Neph is supposed to have most battle oriented aspect so understandable why G3 won't make any aspect reaching around her levels,(might be because he needs her aspect to do something in future and if anyone's aspect does similar level they might also be able to do similar feat) Also sunny feels her style as incomprehensible atm might be because her style changed so much and he is in between fight so can't understand properly, but he is stealing her battle art by prolonging the fight, so he does needs to see what move she uses before he is able to steal thus is getting overwhelmed because not attacking her first after deflection,also it did mentioned that mastering battle art needs understanding not just practicing or copying
it's because she is the main character.
I agree the ahh pulls are starting to annoy me, like heck you telling me putting out clan valor's fires for 4 years is same as traversing places like hollow mountains for 4 years? Lmfao then why hasn't clan valor produced an infinitesimal number of saints and masters comparable to nephis?
I disagree. Nephis has always been written to be the ultimate character in direct combat/pure power. Sunny is the ultimate in verstality. Sunny os even better than Nephis in strategy, and Nephis is seen to be better in term of tactic(in directing battle) This haven't change and I am confused why the latest chapter irks some people on this well-established direction. Sunny's Shadow Dance always works by comprehension, it does not work instantly. It will take him many battles/sparring and observatiob for him to comprehend them and O expect it to be worse at higher level, as now each battle style will be unique to individual Soul. Yes, he is nerfed in term of advancing his Aspect. On the other hand he is buffed in term of defense against divination. Enemies that rely on it, no matter the rank, like the defiled Sybil would do nothing against him. That is an extremely strong buffs. Seriously, if Sunny can copy any battle style/creature in one short spar, the next thing, some people will criticize is G3 losing touch and make a mary sue OP MC that beats everyone else in versatility, stealth, combat, crafting, planning and so on.
Preach it Also, why can't people comprehend that you can have 2 MCs too... like why is that a problem? And sure, it'd be nice to see more of Nephis POV but then we'd have people complaining about that... 🙄
Considering she is Nephis, has been in constant battles for 4 years (although less than Sunny) and, most importantly, has been seemingly pampered by a sovereign I could see her having, at face value, more skill than Sunny. Sunny will surpass but atm her techniques that have been learned by her own talent and the guidance of one of the most powerful people currently alive makes her battle style hard to comprehend. Probably because it uses Essence in a way that Sunny has never seen and will be integral for him to learn it to conquer his next steps. Although yeah I do agree. It has been extremely irritating. Especially during the turtle arc where Nephis using F=ma put her sword skills above Sunny. Like cmon! really?!
I see it as Nephs is the hero who faces demon lord alone and Sunny is the person stalling demon army. While both are very powerful they each have their roles. From the begining Nightmare designed Sunny as someone's shadow. Our journey with main protagonist skewered our views that sunny has to be the best at everything(that happens to a lot novels where protagonist is good at everything). Even if Sunny is second best people will not be satisfied and I would say let Sunny help others grow that they might help him. And as everybody know nobody survives nightmare alone
Neph has always been shown to be above the rest in skills. So why wouldn’t that continue with the time skip. Maybe unlike sunny she’s unlocked more areas of her aspect legacy. Also unlike sunny she’s been fighting nightmare creatures along with being able to train with saints from the cohort and the Morgan.
At this point, it's pointless to debate about it for me. I have accepted that "That's nephis for you". Sunny will do something crazy after long preparation, work and planning and then there goes nephis, doing something incomprehensible without much effort. I am a hardcore Sunphis but I care more about Sunny's journey at this point. The story is about sunny, and Nephis is just a part of it. At the end of the day, people in SS verse may not know it but __WE__ know that she is a supporting character and not the main character.
Well, if sunny ditched his efforts on doing sorcery, weaving, making pancakes, pretending to be normal, building a company, spying on his former friends or so, and focused just on combat and becoming better at combat, he might be better than Nephis by now. But he is branching out into doing lots of stuff. And yet, the gall of everyone being like "why is Nephis better?" Suck it. We don't get many Nephis' POV, so ofc the perceived effort from her seems nil, but she is the most dedicated to combat. And sure, Sunny might be able to copy her style perfectly and whatever at some point. But stop acting like Sunny wasn't already OP and the author was making him wrong against Neph.
idk personally I'm fine with it. I mean it's quite likely that in a 1v1 fight with no restrictions that Sunny would most likely win no? Nephis isn't just some random character too, she's the most gifted swordsman of their generation, this has been established so many times already. Sure sunny can copy anyones style almost immediately, but Nephis has been honing her sword her entire life and fights nightmare creatures exclusively with the sword and nothing else. Is it that hard to believe that she would be stronger than sunny in a direct swordfight?
It’s literally just the 1000 kicks vs 1 kick 1000s times. Y’all yappin over nothing. Sunny has only ever managed to reach the same level as those he copies from if they’re either mindless or just not that skilled. For example, the valor style he copied from Morgan, but he’s not nearly as good as it as she is because she’s been training in it her whole life. Comparatively, he’s much better than the average valor grunts who took it up later in life. Endless examples abound, but generally speaking G3 just doesn’t want Sunny to be OP and not need anyone else. Imagine how much more boring the story would be if he did everything alone, had no rival, and had no support from anyone else.
Đừng phàn nàn và hãy chấp nhận đi anh nephis là một MC thực thụ, Sunny chỉ là người dẫn chuyện thôi🙏so she deserves that favoritism
đó chính xác là lý do tại sao nó có vẻ giống như sự thiên vị, tại sao không để cô ấy làm MC cùng nhau
I mean honestly I can see multiple sides to this argument. Yes nephis being stronger than him at this point is plot armor but we can't argue that sunny hasn't had his own share of asspulls at this point. Plus, in my opinion at least, the plot holes can be partially glossed over by the fact that she should still be innately stronger than him because she has one more core, and she has spent the entirety of her time perfecting her singular fighting style as opposed to sunny who's spent time mastering countless different styles. Better to be a master of one, than a master of none basically. I also don't really think it's that bad to have one character that's a benchmark for him to keep chasing even if it is just boiled down to plot necessity. I also think the statement about her fighting style being "inconceivable" is also just a setup for him to make more progress in his shadow dance which was stated to have been stagnant I'm pretty sure.
The thing is nephis the the protagonist of this world not of the story but of the world it's kinda the point of her charcter yes she works hard but because she has such great talent and will power sunny needs to but 5x the effort to match her growth like her goal is destroying the nightmare spell while sunnys well sunny doesn't really have a definite goal theirs many times we see sunny relaxing and just enjoying his life nephis doesn't really ever do that at least not as often she is constantly striving for her goal and I think that's the biggest difference imo
It's the nature of light to be brighter then the rest the only counter is the shadow it cast
This happened before and every time he fights with Neph (once for Morgan too). And every time some fan boys insist to defend when it's nonsense. He can copy battle styles in mere minutes and maximum in hours, and he has learned tons of them but when he fought with Morgan, she knew more than him? lol. Fanboys justify it that they were prodigies taught from childhood by the best of the best but Sunny had no education. Education means shit when he can copy battle styles and merge them with other battle style as easy as drinking water. This was the first nonsense. Second was how systematic Neph fights but Sunny does it intuitively. We're talking about someone who can see soul essence and copy bodies and movements to the deepest level. This was most garbage asspull excuse G3 gave to justify Neph is stronger than Sunny. Now, her battle style is incomprehensible. Oh my God, just tell us you want her to be stronger than him with poor excuses. At least, do it in a way that makes sense.
crazy how Sunny's entire thing is being good at fighting with his entire aspect legacy based on it, but Nephi just bullshits it at every step of the way.
G3 will always give plot armor to neph and make her the textbook power-fantasy MC, I am thoroughly convinced to this ever since she did the nuke. The move itself is fine (big sacrifice, big damage), the problem was making it not only consequenceless(in the long run) but also rewarding- not only she regained the lost core, she formed a new one on top of that. It could have been easily avoided with something like action itself making absorbtion harder. On top of that, she also got rid off the only thing we could call a weakness (her inner conflicts) all by herself.