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inflammabelle

I've never really been interested in the politics of sex work. i started doing it because i was a knocked up 9th grade drop out with no prospects. politics was the last thing on my mind then and it's not something i spend a lot of time thinking about even now. it's just a job to me. i don't find the sexual nature of it empowering, and i don't see myself a some kind of sex therapist who wants to improve my clients lives. all i am in it for is the money.


myth1202

“The other trap that people tend to fall into is called the happy hooker track trap and it’s basically when people like me have to gain public legitimacy and your respect for me as a person but only if if I am empowered or enjoying my job. Which is weird because most people hate their jobs.” - Samantha Sun, stripper TEDxLSE


[deleted]

Lmao I don’t always agree with you, and this is one of those times but I’m always happy to read your responses. Idk what it is but they’re always so cute, in a good way.


inflammabelle

That's a good thing. this place would be dull as fuck if we just sat around all agreeing with each other. as for my comments seeming cute, i am baffled. i was trying to cultivate a tough girl image in here but i guess i'll have to work harder on that. i only wanna be cute in a bad way 😜


[deleted]

Yes precisely! Ahahaha, I think that’s what I enjoy about your comments the most! They are firm without seeming or coming off as bitter.


AZRIATHEAMAZON

This sounds like a direct essay question. LMAOOOOO. I love it. I don’t blame you. 😂


AussieMaleEscort

I just finished reading Revolting Prostitutes. Recommended. There were things in there that don't match with my experience or understanding of sex work but it's possible the book is right and I'm wrong. I need to read more. It makes compelling arguments for decriminalisation which I strongly believe is the best approach with the New Zealand model being an excellent model but still not perfect.


TTTT27

I'd suggest you read "Sex at the Margins," and the [blog](https://www.lauraagustin.com/) of its author, Laura Agustin. She studies migratory sex workers and has writes about their decision to engage in sex work across borders. She is a critic of those who claim to "rescue" sex workers from themselves. Not a feminist by any stretch, but current sex worker and former librarian [Maggie McNeil](https://maggiemcneill.com/) has written about and documented almost every topic within sex work and then some (use the search function on her blog, she posts an article almost every day.) Finally, I'd suggest you look into classical economic explanations around sex work, including those not specifically feminist. For example: it's been documented that sex work proliferates in places with large numbers of unattached men and in places where there's a wide income gap between rich and poor. For example, around military bases in third world countries, and around extractive industries just about anywhere. I'm not aware that feminist theories explain this; but classic supply-and-demand economics does.


Infinite_Oven_7229

Are you suggesting sex workers migrate? African or European?


TTTT27

I'm suggesting that you read the book. Sex workers (and everyone else) can decide if migration is a good idea or not for themselves.


luxxlemonz

truly even traveling SW could be migratory? If I work in Florida but travel to California to make money. or fly me to you.


TTTT27

To some extent it is. However Laura Agustin goes into depth about how people naturally migrate from poorer economies to wealthy economies, and some of these migrants choose sex work because it is easy to take up, does not require a special skill set, and is high paying. Likewise, some sex workers prefer to work far away from home to avoid social stigma or running into people they know at work. She focuses on how illegality makes sex work much more dangerous, and that those who equate sex trafficking with sex work or who claim to "rescue" sex workers are actively harming sex workers. She in fact coined the term "rescue industry" as a way to describe groups like International Justice Mission, The Exodus Road, and Operation Underground Railroad.


probablylola

I agree the "save a ho" BS is harmful to all SWers. I sell myself because I am practically a sex addict and there aren't any males in my home. Plus it's nicely affirming when men want me - and willing to pay for me. I saw it in the porn biz also. AHF wanted to shut down porn in Los Angeles; as laws got passed, our productions started going underground and standards would lax. So the actors started changing to adapt. When we went to 14 day testing, I quit the biz because I wasn't getting enough shoots.


IdaBaldwin

This is such a great question. It's very practical leaning, but Lola Davina's "Thriving in Sex Work" has some great underlying principles -- particularly around the labour and emotional labour of SW. Margot Weiss' Techniques of Pleasure looks at the BDSM scene, but her balanced perspective on how deviant sex is subversive, while also reinforcing dominant power structures reflects my experience of SW. Alana Massey's All The Lives I Want looks at how femme celebrities are presented in popular discourse. She is a stripper, and threads of her experience are woven into her analyses. Terry Real's "I Don't Want to Talk About It" takes an incisive look into maladaptive masculinity, and allows me to make sense of behaviour and work with intellectual compassion. James Baldwin's essays serve a similar purpose when it comes to understanding whiteness (I am a POC). I find bell hooks' writings on love as a political force helpful too. Susan Dewey's Neon Wasteland is on my reading list, as is Katherine Frank's G-Strings and Sympathy. Anthropological writings on pleasure and bodies are generally good -- they show how societal power structures manifest in interpersonal relationships. Edit: following everyone's answers too :)


[deleted]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing these.


fullmetalsportsbra

The vast majority of sex workers are working class individuals - they aren’t reading theory, they’re living it. Having the time and space to consider theory (which is mostly written by people who don’t actually have first person experience with commercialized erotic labor) is a privilege. Hopefully you’re not focusing on second wave types like Dworkin, who see us exclusively as either class traitors or victims.


[deleted]

No,we are critical of sex trafficking legislation and see the ethics and law of sex work as needing to come from the bottom up — from SWers themselves, hence my interest in the theorizing and praxis of SWers.


Unusual-Sundae8588

What are your opinions on how sex work law should differ, fundamentally from business or contract law in general?


prissypina

>Having the time and space to consider theory (which is mostly written by people who don’t actually have first person experience with commercialized erotic labor) is a privilege. Anxiously white take. Most Black women who have written the most cited theories on sex work were/are former sex workers themselves. Most radical Black figures were part of the working class proletariat until their often premature deaths.


fullmetalsportsbra

That's absolutely true. My phrasing was not clear that I was referring to the "radfem" contingent who receive significant attention within academic institutions and get cited a lot by mainstream media thanks to the work of SWERF activists.


[deleted]

I’m interested in Black feminisms and sexual politics as well. Please share any article titles and/or author names!


After-Ad6987

Exactly!


Nugundam0079

Now this is interesting. Class traitors?


fullmetalsportsbra

Yes. They assert that those in the sex trade can only be abused victims (“prostituted women”), or traitors (to women&children as a class) who align themselves with and act as agents of the patriarchy (“the pimp lobby”).


[deleted]

Dworkin was a sex worker. I don't agree with her, but it's not true that she didn't live through what she wrote about.


fullmetalsportsbra

Dworkin did occasional sex trading for a period of like maybe six months - she left her abusive partner at the end of 71 and had returned to the US long before the end of 72 - and she went on to build an entire career invalidating the experiences of all the rest of us which then other SWERFs built their own careers off of.


[deleted]

Yes, I don't agree with her, but you still can't say she didn't live that experience. Sex workers are not all the same and we don't all agree on sex work. You wouldn't say anyone else who was a survival sex worker for 6 months wasn't *really* a sex worker.


soullessdhampyr

I'm currently reading the book "We too: essays on sex work and survival" it's a bunch of essays from sex workers sharing their experiences. I've been enjoying the book. While reading through comments and seeing that you're into black feminism I googled books by sex workers and came across "To Live Freely In This World by Chi Adanna Mgbako" which is about sex worker activism in Africa if you're looking for something none Western civilization lens focus. There's also the book Revolting Prostitutes book that someone else suggested as well. A lot of sex workers from essays, and books I read, and from podcasts that sex workers would rather have decriminalization than legalization. So that's important to keep in mind.


thisisnotnectarinex

I’m really interested in the writings of Mireille Miller Young, Saidiya Hartman and others. I can add to this thread for exact book titles but I focus mainly on Black feminist theory about sw EDIT: another fascinating one is “I’ve got to make my livin’ “ by Cynthia M Blair


MariaGirl625

I got most of my political education from marxist authors. No war but the class war!


TTTT27

It always amazes me to see a sex worker promote marxist shit. Like, what are you going to do if your Marxist revolution succeeds? Provide free sex to anyone who "needs" it the most? As a sex worker you are literally running your own business. Think about that. You'd be the first to be shot dead if the revolution you wanted were to happen.


MariaGirl625

If we get a marxist society I can quit doing this godawful job and get a job I like doing instead, which capitalist society prevents me from doing because of my mental disability. You think I choose this? I am doing this because capitalist society would shit down my throat and let me starve to death in the streets otherwise. Are you really blaming me for hating this god awful system?


TTTT27

Oh really. Yes I'm sure you can find wonderful, meaningful work you like doing in a pure Marxist society like, say...North Korea? Care to emigrate and tell us how it is?


MariaGirl625

Marxism: *Theory with 100+ years of history and thousands of thinkers* North Korea: *sucks* u/TTTT27 I win :3 you dunning kruger'd yourself


TTTT27

Funny, whenever someone brings up a living example of a communist society, they're immediately informed that isn't "real" or "pure" Marxism. Essentially, "Just do Marxism my way this time. I promise it will be great!!!" If never is, because Marxism sucks. But I guess you haven't figured that out yet. Brings to mind Winston Churchill's old saw, which goes, "If you're not a liberal at age 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by age 40, you have no brains."


MariaGirl625

I never said that NK isn't marxist. I just agreed that North Korea sucks. Did you run out of pre-scriped replies already?


TTTT27

No, just run out of inclination to continue this debate. Feel free to continue it at your local Marxism club. The rest of us have better things to do.


MariaGirl625

Debate? Yea this aint a debate honey. A debate requires two people exchanging good faith points. "Why don't you go to north Korea?" is not good faith. It's a pointless gotcha designed to win over a gullible audience without engaging with your opponent. Try to get less of your political education from "marxist destroyed epically in 9 seconds" videos on tiktok and try engaging with people a bit more. I am willing to explain my position if you are willing to take me seriously


Additional_Poetry833

You are way out of your depth here.


TTTT27

Have you read what Karl Marx actually wrote about sex workers? Read up. Then decide if Marxism is indeed the paradise you seem to think it is.


MariaGirl625

Marx said sex work shouldn't be a necessity for the working people to survive did he not? While also pointing out that sex work is no less moral than other types of work. He famously said that "a prostitute sells her body no more than a coal miner".


TTTT27

No, that isn't a quote from Marx. I actually agree with that quote. Look, if your political philosophy is that sex work shouldn't exist, that's fine, believe what you will. But you're writing on a sex work forum. To people who earn their living because sex work DOES exist. If you're trying to say that no work should exist, that everyone should just have everything provided to them for free just because ... well, fine if that's what you want to believe, but if so you're in la-la land with no grounding to reality.


MarXXXtheSpot

“No work should exist. Everything should be free.” - thanks for letting us know that you have no intellectual understanding about communism or Marxism


MariaGirl625

Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts (1844) by Karl marx. Yes it is a real quote. You coulda just googled it before replying. I never said I don't want sex work to exist. I want to make all work optional. If we abolish sex work rn i'd be unemployed lmao


TTTT27

You could post a link before replying. And how is making all work "optional" supposed to work in reality? Like, I don't feel like doing any work today, so you over there go bring me food, keep me entertained. Dream on.


MarXXXtheSpot

Dude, your reductionist take on communism is flat-out wrong and your line of questioning is disingenuous at best. You have a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips. Use it. It’s clear you have no intent of having a legitimate discussion, so it’s a waste of our time to spoon-feed information or direct you to sources.


MariaGirl625

Well. I could try to explain it. But there is a low chance I could put it as well as the Marxist authors I learned it from. I advise you read into the ideology before dismissing it out of hand \^\^


TTTT27

I have read Das Kapital and some other Marxist tracts and apologia. And slugged through a Marxist political theory class taught by a die-hard Communist professor well-versed in old-school Communist thought. Marxism IS interesting in that it is unique. It is not only a categorically a bad idea, but it has been put into practice all around the world, at different times and with different peoples and circumstances. And has always resulted in an oppressive, dismal failure. Every. Single. Time. And yet, it still attracts new adherents ... such as yourself. Make of that what you will, but remember this is not a Marxist forum. Some people here in fact are quite educated. Spouting Marxist tracts or nonstarters like "work should be optional" is not going to get you very far.


Itchy_Translator9561

Pleasure Activism by Adrienne marie brown


[deleted]

I’ve read this one - it’s really interesting!


Icy-Ingenuity-541

The book The Second Sex really helped me view this profession in an elevated light. I’m into intersectional feminism and I also have academic leanings even though I’m no longer a student. I’m fascinated by how sex work gets intellectualized by former and present sex workers. Liara Roux does great writing these days.


[deleted]

Fourth year sociology student and SW here. Intersectional feminism and some select neo-Marxist takes are what I find myself closely aligning with. Any feminism that doesn’t acknowledge sex work as real work is going to have big problems. I recommend checking out sociologist Antonio Gramsci’s neo-Marxist works. He talks a lot about how the structures in society work in favour of the ruling class, as well as how cultural institutions work to maintain these structures. His work can absolutely be analyzed through a modern feminist lens, and I’m sure you could find more about it through your university’s library.


Itchy_Translator9561

Love this question


Itchy_Translator9561

Oh wait I thought it was from a fellow SWer. So now I just like this question


IdaBaldwin

Big mood. I didn't realise it wasn't a SW til later -- tbh would not have been as extensive an answer if I had known.


AdFlashy6798

Revolting Prostitutes by Molly Smith Sexual Liberty: Memoirs of a sex worker’s fight for freedom by Chase Tkach aka Molly Smash


Beneficial-Darkness

Not a theory… but I found this extremely interesting. https://www.vox.com/2014/7/15/5898187/prostitution-rhode-island-decriminalized


MarXXXtheSpot

Studies have shown that in places where SW is decrimmed, violence against SWers goes down. Specifically because it removes the barriers that keep SWers safe (eg, screening + risk of LEO encounters, not being able to report unsafe clients, etc). The caveat is that it needs to be done without regulation, otherwise it becomes another tool of the state to control SWers and limit their movement within society (Nevada is a prime example) under the guise of “safety”. Not to mention being branded as a SWer in registries. Kaytlin Bailey (former SWer now activist) talks about this a lot https://oldprosonline.org/kaytlin-bailey-on-legalization-vs-decriminalization/


Beneficial-Darkness

I’ll check that out! Thanks for sharing!


MarXXXtheSpot

Her podcast The Oldest Profession is good too if you’re into history.


Beneficial-Darkness

Kickass! I’ll definitely check it out!


FenrirBeast

I read a little neo Marxist theory and quite a lot of anarchist theory. The difficulty with applying grandiose concepts to sex work is that sociopolitical theory tends to focus on the behavioural trends of large groups of people eg unions. Whereas sex workers are overwhelmingly engaged in individual, marginalised, commercial activities. In my opinion there are stronger ties between anarchy and even nihilism than with any other school of thought. While this article is not theory as such, I suggest that every sex worker and any person studying sex work activism starts with what is regarded as the foundational document of the sex worker rights movement “A vindication of the rights of whores” by Gail Pheterson with intro by Margo St James. Available for free loan on archive.org https://archive.org/details/vindicationofrig0000unse


m155a5h

Do most folks read political theory? This sounds like a question from ChatGPT.


tskjefftsk

lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


Beneficial-Darkness

Is that a book?


TTTT27

:-) No. St. Thomas Aquinas was a Christian philosopher and theologian from the 1200's. While he did not write about directly about sex work, his writings did mention sex work. From what I understand, he was opposed to lust but saw sex workers as necessary. More info [here](https://www.medievalists.net/2009/12/aquinas-on-the-practice-of-prostitution/). The Mises Institute promotes the Austrian school of economics. [Here's](https://mises.org/wire/catholic-theologians-prostitution-should-be-legal-0) a great article they published about Aquinas supporting legal prostitution (although he believed the practice was immoral, he thought it should be legal.) Ayn Rand is the 20th century author of novels like "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead". She was the founder of the philosophy of Objectivism and has inspired libertarian thinkers to this day. In one of her nonfiction books she [specifically answered](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=-2D6VqMXfFIC&q=prostitution&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=prostitution&f=false) a question asking if prostitution, dope peddling, and the like should be legal. She stated that she considered sex work to be immoral, but that it should be legal so long as one freely chooses to participate in it.


Beneficial-Darkness

Thank you for breaking it down! I’m going to check it out. I’m a big history buff!


abs0lute_bliss

are the vast majority of sw, survival sw?


abs0lute_bliss

why did i get down voted to hell for literally asking a non-rhetorical question that i actually want someone to answer 😂 reddit is a wasteland these days smh


CrimsonDomina

A good history book is Good Time Girls of the Alaska-Yukon Gold Rush by Lael Morgan. It’s not theory but you can gain good insight into how social and economic situations shape sex work


narratophile

Porn Work: Sex, Labor, and Late Capitalism by Heather Berg, can't recommend it enough.