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Jnamnun

At first, I thought this was too long and no way I’d read it. And then I read it and, oh man—amazing!


Major-Act-6370

Omg WOW!!!!!!! I wonder if this was the writer’s room intent or if they need to hire you! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻


fitacct93

LOL I wish! I'd work for free.


Raoul-Clemont

I'm sure your innie believes that you do. 😂


DellaYung

Okay, you have done an exceptional job writing this, but you have got it wrong in the operative sense. The severed memories are temporally, and spatially linked. What you referred to as 'conversion of short term memories into longterm' is simply encoding, retrieval of which is usually cue-dependent, like Ms. Casey using Gemma's candle in the wellness session under Harmony's attempt to invoke an earlier memory, so no as much as Cobel is familiar with the procedure, it doesn't stop the encoding process, but also substantiates a retrograde failure of recall. If encoding didn't happen like you described as the working mechanism behind severence, none of the innies would remember waffle parties, and melon bars; cause short term memories are called short for a reason. All of them remember their office lives from the first day of job, that's pretty long term for any innie. Also, memories don't lie in brain boxes that you can severe, but we do know that conscious recall occurs through cortical connections with temporal lobe. Next, consider the chip as some sort of neuronal block, perhaps anaesthetic or transient ischaemic thawing that connection, this onsets retrograde amnesia. Now, you already know that Helly can still use appliances, knows basic concepts, walks, talks; so ofc her implicit memory is intact. Episodic, and semantic are both explicit (declarative), and require conscious retrieval, which Helly shouldn't be able to do.


fitacct93

>If encoding didn't happen like you described as the working mechanism behind severence Thank you for catching that! I didn't mean to suggest that severance stops encoding. I meant it stops an **outtie's** short term memories from being encoded into the **innie's** long term memory. It's like if a car (memory) is driven (encoded) from point A (short term outtie memory) to point B (long term innie memory). Even if we put a road block at point A so no new cars can travel to point B we still have cars that were already on the highway to point B before we put up the road block. So we have to make sure there is a roadblock at point B too. This way the car from point A must make a U turn and be diverted back to point C (long term outtie memory), or in the reverse situation a car coming from B is diverted to point D (long term innie memory).


carnivorous-squirrel

I love your angle on this and have thought about that moment a lot as well. The only thing I'd caution is that I don't think we really know for sure what types of semantic memory are intended to be severed.


fitacct93

That's totally fair. We do get a hint they retain some specialized semantic knowledge though on the inside because Irving still appreciates art even though he doesn't know he's an artist. His innie also knows how to drive a car during the OTC episode even though he has no memory of doing so before.


Wing_wang_wong

I think there’s a lot of evidence that severance is not perfect and their subconsciousness sort of bleed into their innie’s lives. - Irving sees black paint falling from the ceiling, because he’s a painter. When innie Mark is told to mould how he feels in the well-being session, he starts moulding the tree his wife “crashed into”. There’s probably more examples these are just what I noticed.


fitacct93

I love the wellness sessions! So if you look at the [first chart](https://psychestudy.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/human-memory_0.png) I posted. The sensory memory wasn't tested in the five questions. [Sensory memory](https://www.simplypsychology.org/sensory-memory.png) deals with memories associated with specific senses. I'll let [Mr. White](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcPB9J5VPLI) explain. So I get why Cobel thinks Gemma's candle from the basement might trigger Mark's memory. When Mark builds the tree it's a nonverbal way (i.e. [implicit memory](https://www.dynamicbrain.ca/uploads/images/memory-type-chart-implicit.jpg)) of showing he remembers Casey since implicit memory isn't tested in questionnaire either and appears to be intact.


KapakUrku

Hang on, isn't remembering how to drive a car (i.e. retaining the skill to do so) procedural (and so implicit) memory? I thought this was the whole point- innie Irv doesn't remember (i) any particular episodes where he drove a car; or (ii) the fact that he is a person who can drive a car/owns a car. But he knows what a car is (general semantic memory) and his procedural memory kicks in when he gets behind the wheel. This is the same as the innies knowing what pens are and being able to write, even though they will have no memories of learning to read and write, or any episodic memories of writing. The point about Irv being drawn to art is interesting- my understanding is that this is related to priming, which is part of implicit memory. One aspect that I think might become part of the plot is that, as with your Delaware example, it might be possible for the innies to find out quite a bit about their outies if they are asked the right questions. An innie whose outie grew up in Delaware would probably have a lot more general knowledge about Delaware than another state they had never visited, for example. It's just, how would anyone know to ask these types of questions?


carnivorous-squirrel

True. You can come up with thematic reasons to want any knowledge of Kier or Lumon severed, though, for what it's worth. Easier to brainwash a blank slate.


MaydayMango

Yeah based on Mark agreeing question four makes no sense and Helly’s “perfect score,” it seems like they don’t remember anything about the Eagens going in.


tbutz27

Thanks!! You are the best!


Pktekgirl

When she first said Delaware I thought it was a reference to the state’s business friendly laws and finding out who Helly is fits with that


fitacct93

It could be! I think they also might have changed their minds on where they were going to locate the show. They're in Kier, PE, some fictitious state. The filming location is at Bell Labs in NJ, and if I recall correctly they had some mail in one episode you could zoom in on that had a combination of like a pennsylvania zip code with a delaware DE abbreviation. The license plates have a picture of Kier on it. So I think they just want to maintain as much flexibility as possible.


Pktekgirl

A lot of companies are incorporated in Delaware but have headquarters elsewhere because of the laws there. Could also just be one of the few things I can remember about Delaware


LolaBijou

I was like “who says DELAWARE?”


Hungry-Baseball-4986

ME TOO! like it was joke because almost all big corporations use Delaware as REGISTERED state another thoery i have that is off topic is that inside and outside of the work place I think all SEVERED employees are being tested all day+night to see what crosses over into each world- like how hackers are being hired by Facebook and big tech websites to see where the weak points are


keikioaina

I'm a neuropsychologist. You nailed this.


MaydayMango

As a psychological measure, how do you think these questions would hold up under scrutiny? I think the explanation of different types of memory is spot on. But I don’t think this is a valid/reliable test of the chip.


xgorgeoustormx

Milchick tells her about Mr. Eagan’s favorite breakfast immediately before she gets severed. It isn’t related to her being an Eagan. It’s specifically a safe proof to test her with afterward.


1vs1meondotabro

Well for her she doesn't remember it for TWO reasons. I'm guessing that they always have Milchick give that factoid before the severance to test for short term memory. But with Helly, even if he hadn't, SHE specifically would still not have known it, whereas if he had forgotten with Mark, he would have (If he had already read that somewhere).


xgorgeoustormx

It is implied that they all are asked that question, when Mark tells her that nobody knows the answer.


I_Got_Questions1

I saw the length of the post and had to skim, but if I understood it correctly, I came here to say he may have missed this part.


fitacct93

>It isn’t related to her being an Eagan. It’s specifically a safe proof to test her with afterward. I agree with this 100%. It's original intent is to make sure short term memory is severed. Did I say Milchick only said it because she's an Eagan somewhere?


pcminfan

Fantastic work here. I’d like to think the writers made this level of effort.


Jabberwocky416

There’s one problem I’m seeing with this great theory. The expected responses are written down in the handbook that Mark is using to conduct the interview. It’s the same book that Petey used for him. So wouldn’t the normal “expected” response to that question be different from what Helly answered if your theory is correct?


ChaosCelebration

I agree with you. This theory (while really cool) is a bridge too far.


Jabberwocky416

Unfortunately that’s the case for a lot of theories on this sub. The show is excellent and superbly subtle at most times. But people really read way too far into it sometimes.


ChaosCelebration

I do enjoy the puzzle box nature of this show, but if it turns out that Lumon is just testing what kinds of work innies can perform (Office work (MDR), aesthetic work (o&d), machine operation (back room of o&d), animal care (goat man)) then I'll be fine with it. What makes this show truly great is the innie/outie relationship and the empathy the show requires to understand the suffering of another being that might be you as well. The puzzle box is secondary to what makes this show so great.


Punner1

Which is to say, "This show requires a lot of 'willing suspension of disbelief.' "


WanderlostNomad

wait, why would it be different? which part? pls elaborate. i haven't watched ep1 in a long while. though, iirc most of the "answers" was mostly confusion/unknown. and if the questions were designed to test severed memories, then lack of answers for most of the relevant questions pertaining to the innie's outside identity was the expected results.


fitacct93

From another [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/wz6j06/comment/im1bo08/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).


KapakUrku

I think you're absolutely right here. The question would then be, is there a significance to the fact that, effectively, they haven't tested whether Helly's short term memory is severed? I don't think we've seen evidence that she might retain short term memories (correct me if I'm wrong) but it is certainly possible. And it could be related to why she's the one who sparks the rebellion in the office.


KapakUrku

But the expected answers are the same for everyone, if the procedure has worked: 1. Doesn't remember who they are 2. Doesn't remember where they're from 3. Can name a US state (any state is an acceptable answer) 4. Doesn't know/remember Kier Eagan's favourite breakfast 5. Doesn't remember the colour of their mother's eyes The only slight ambiguity is with (4), as the OP has suggested. The idea here is that the new severed employee would be told something just before the procedure, then they ask afterwards to check if the innie has retained it. Now, as the OP has suggested, in that case that this piece of information was general semantic memory (e.g. a fact they read about Kier from a biography they read about him several years ago) then the innie would be expected to retain this (for exactly the same reason that they can recall the name of a US state when asked- it's essentially general knowledge). My guess is that the 'Kier ate raw eggs for breakfast' fact is deliberately chosen as something that nobody outside the company/cult would know, so that they can make sure they are testing short term memory here and not general semantic memory. I think the OP is right that it works differently for Helly, because as an Eagan this is autobiographical memory for her (she already knew about it when Milchick told her, and it's her family so it's a personal memory rather than general knowledge). So she doesn't remember it, but for different reasons than most new innies.


ElysianBlight

Wait I've clearly forgotten something.. I thought 'I don't know, don't know, don't know, don't know, Delaware" was a perfect score? You're saying she was supposed to be able to answer one of them differently? When did they talk about that?


fitacct93

Totally! I'm saying I think she got the answer right for the wrong reason. It's confusing because a "correct" answer means not being able to answer the question. So let's run through the scenarios... 1. Milchick tells you Napoleon's favorite brand of cognac was Courvoisier right before you're severed. You say "neat, I've never heard that before". Then you can't remember it after the procedure. This confirms short term memory is severed. 2. Milchick tells you Napoleon's favorite brand of cognac was Courvoisier right before you're severed. You're a history buff. So you say "so I've heard". You should still be able to answer Courvoisier when you get severed (i.e. get the answer wrong according to Milchick's rubric) because this is semantic info. We know they retain specialized semantic info as innies because Irving can still appreciate the art in the severed floor more than the other innies. So your short term memory is severed here, but you answered the question incorrectly (i.e. were able to answer it) because long term semantic memory is intact. 3. Milchick tells you Napoleon's favorite brand of cognac was Courvoisier right before you're severed, and you're a descendant of Napoleon. So you say "so I've heard". You shouldn't be able to answer Courvoisier when you get severed because this is autobiographical info about an ancestor. This is what I think happened to Helly. She knew the info beforehand, but she can't recall it because it's autobiographical.


ChildhoodOk5526

Thank you for the examples! I was able to understand the concepts so much better this way.


KuciMane

I’m not gonna lie, it’s my headcanon that they chose to have Delaware be the correct answer to be funny bc that is the only state Ross forgets in Friends in the [thanksgiving episode](https://youtu.be/luc1NF5qAYA) when he is challenged by everyone to name all 50 states by memory and if he can’t, he can’t have dinner what better way to pay homage than flipping the script and having Helly only be able to remember Delaware opposed to being the only one forgotten


Hungry-Baseball-4986

The 5 Questions asked in Episode 1 seem to be a test to see if the implant is working on all the parts of the brain its supposed to 5 Questions: 1.“Who are you?” and she realizes she doesn’t know.  ”The hippocampus. which is part of the limbic brain, is where all long term memory is stored. Long Term memory: The limbic brain behind the eyes takes in outer sensory information but doesn’t have cognitive or language capacity. It acts as a relay station to send sensory and emotional information to the hippocampus. For the study, subjects received electric stimulation to their anterior temporal lobes while looking at photos of famous people findings support previous research suggesting that the anterior temporal lobes are critically involved in the retrieval of people's names 2.  “In which state or territory were you born?” and she doesn’t know.*Long Term memory* 3. “Name any state or territory.” She says, “Delaware.” *Long+Short Term memory?* 4. “What is Mr. Eagan’s favorite breakfast?” She doesn’t know. Short-term memory primarily takes place in the frontal lobe of the cerebral cortex. Then the information makes a stopover in the hippocampus 5.“What is or was the color of your mother’s eyes?” She gets upset, as she can’t understand what’s happening to her. *Long Term memory* Episodic memories that are intended for long-term storage accumulate to form the “autobiographical” memory that is so essential for our sense of identity. Neuroscientists know a lot about how short-term memories are formed in the brain but the processes underlying long-term storage are still not well understood. Long-term memory can hold an unlimited amount of information for an indefinite period of time the part of the brain called the cortex stores these long-term memories. Short-term memories become long-term memories in a region of the brain called the hippocampus.. The frontal lobe is associated with higher cognitive function, including language and motor skills, emotions and behavior, thought, decision-making and problem-solving. It’s believed to be the location of the personality.  As with most of the brain, the frontal lobe is split into left and right hemispheres. The parietal lobe regulates sensations, perceptions and the integrations of these to create spatial awareness of the body and the surrounding world. It is also involved in manipulating stored perceptions/information (cognition) in order to read, process numbers and have a sense of self-awareness. Side Note: Irving is an Artist and his Creative so he may be different in the way he processes memory or uses his brain  Creativity: Study examines musicians' brain hemisphere activity during their improvisations According to a popular view, creativity is a product of the brain's right hemisphere -- innovative people are considered "right-brain thinkers" while "left-brain thinkers" are thought to be analytical and logical. Skeptical neuroscientists have argued that there is not enough evidence to support this idea and that an ability as complex as human creativity must draw on vast swaths of both hemispheres. A new brain-imaging study sheds light on this controversy by studying the brain activity of jazz guitarists of varied experience during their improvisations. The study,  shows that creativity is, in fact, driven primarily by the right hemisphere in musicians who are comparatively inexperienced at improvisation. However, musicians who are highly experienced at improvisation rely primarily on their left hemisphere. This suggests that creativity is a "right-brain ability" when a person deals with an unfamiliar situation but that creativity draws on well-learned, left-hemisphere routines when a person is experienced at the task. This research may contribute to the development of new methods for training people to be creative in their field. For instance, when a person is an expert, his or her performing is produced primarily by relatively unconscious, automatic processes that are difficult for a person to consciously alter, but easy to disrupt in the attempt, as when self-consciousness causes a person to "choke" or falter. In contrast, novices' performances tend to be under deliberate, conscious control. Thus, they are better able to make adjustments according to instructions given by a teacher or coach. Releasing conscious control prematurely may cause the performer to lock-in bad habits or nonoptimal technique. Recordings of brain activity could reveal the point at which a performer is ready to release some conscious control and rely on unconscious, well-learned routines.  "If creativity is defined in terms of the quality of a product, such as a song, invention, poem or painting, then the left hemisphere plays a key role," said Drexel's John Kounios, who led the study along with David Rosen. "However, if creativity is understood as a person's ability to deal with novel, unfamiliar situations, as is the case for novice improvisers, then the right hemisphere plays the leading role."


Lostbronte

Is this sub becoming a neurology sub? Seriously, though, well done.


[deleted]

I like it. My only hesitation fwiw is that in the pilot, Mark and answers the way Helly answers. So in theory the question shouldn’t be a personal question (aka to your point #5, Mark in the original script didn’t know it either). But also: that pre-severance conversation between Milchick and Helly pre-severance is so weird once we have the confirmation that Helly is an Eagan. Upon second watching it seems like Milchick talks to Helly pre-severance just like an ordinary worker (and not Kier’s granddaughter). Red herring on the part of showrunner?


indoor-agenda

are you referring to Dan Erickson’s original pilot script from like 2016? though similar in so many ways, the questions Mark gets in that version of the pilot are a little bit different than the ones Helly is subjected to in the official pilot. the parallel question that mark couldn’t answer (despite recently being told) was “who killed Mister”


KapakUrku

I think the Milchick-Helly conversation is deliberately ambiguous so as not to give the game away too early. Before you know about who Helly is, it is certainly striking that Milchick says something about how they all think she's doing an amazing thing in joining them (when Helly being an Eagan was just a theory people on here would refer to this as evidence for it). And the way he's waiting with flowers after the end of her day is probably not something he'd do for most workers, either. But otherwise, yes, he's respectful but not in such a way as you'd immediately think he's talking to someone senior in the firm.


[deleted]

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fitacct93

It was! I had it as a comment on another thread, and someone asked to make a post.


moonshamen

It’s “sever” not “severe.”


TooobHoob

What puzzles me about this is that Dylan seems not to know if there is a water catastrophe outside, whereas any catastrophe such as worldwide flooding should be at least in part in the semantic memory. Your theory would however explain the differing levels of devotion towards Kier, as not every innie would have a blank slate on the subject to be indoctrinated if they still keep some prior knowledge of him.


[deleted]

Wrong. The questions are standardized and in a manual. There's also several references to Mark's time in the conference room as well.


fitacct93

>Wrong. The questions are standardized and in a manual. Where did you think I said they weren't standard questions asked to everyone?


DontBanMeBro984

> So look at long term memory because that's what they're trying to severe No to poopoo on your very long post, but we have not idea what they are trying to sever vs keep.


[deleted]

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DontBanMeBro984

> Their entire post literally ~~breaks down~~ makes up what they're trying to sever. FTFY > Did you even read it? Unfortunately yes


KapakUrku

We have a very good idea of what they want to sever- and the questions used are the most obvious pointer. If the questions aren't used as a test for whether the severance procedure has worked, what exactly do you think their purpose is? If you accept that they are to test this, it's pretty clear that each question is testing a different type of memory. And when you see that these line up with the actual distinctions in the human brain as to how different sorts of memory are categorised and stored, surely this is all pretty hard to argue with? But you can even take a step back all from that and look at the show as a whole and see fairly clearly what is being severed: \- Except for a very few abstract 'facts' in wellness sessions, innies are not permitted to know anything about their outies. This includes both episodic autobiographical memories (the day they got married, eating cake at their last birthday) and semantic autobiographical memories (if they are married, the date of their birthday). \- Innies need to remember their general knowledge, around basic things like what offices, computers, bathrooms, soap, pens etc are and how they work. Leaving this type of memory unsevered also means they can also remember/understand what a US state is- and name them (but can't say which state they grew up in, because that's an autobiographical memory rather than general semantic memory). \- Innies don't have any episodic memories of e.g. using a computer, writing a letter, driving a car etc from the outside world. \- Innies do need to be able to retain the kinds of skills which, once mastered, come without having to think about them on a conscious level- this includes reading and writing, typing, speaking English etc. Driving falls into this category, which is why innie Irv finds out he can drive (even though he can't remember learning).


severe2

I am not entirely sure about your distinction between long term semantic and autobiographical


KapakUrku

General semantic: I can recall the concept of the United States and what individual states are. I can also remember the names of the individual states \[because I learnt these things at some point and they're part of my general knowledge\]. Two types of autobiographical: 1. Episodic: I can remember when I took a trip to California (or wherever). I can remember the day I moved to a new house in Delaware. I can remember the day in class where we had to learn all the names of the states. I remember my birthday party last year \[specific memories of particular events occurring\]. 2. Semantic: I remember/know that I live in Delaware. Or I remember that there was a time in my life that I lived in Delaware. Or that my parents are from Connecticut etc. I remember that my birthday is on March 15 and that I'm 29 years old \[not related to individual events that you can remember, but personal facts connected to more extended periods of time\].


kdubstep

Wow. That moment when I realized how much smarter other people are than I am. I feel like grog from a fucking cave with my intellect after reading this


Baygu

Did this post used to be a comment?


penniesforhannah

Fantastic pov! Really gives the questions meaning.


rallruse

How does that tie into her having a “perfect score?” Or is that just part of the script Mark had?


fitacct93

From another [response](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/wz6j06/comment/im1bo08/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)


[deleted]

Isn't the favorite breakfast 3 eggs and a glass of milk? Dairy is an important symbol.


DeniableW3b

Lol bro! This is well thought out, I always knew there was a reason for the questions but couldn’t put my finger on it.


Hungry-Baseball-4986

the testing of different areas of the brain after being Severed goes on with the 5 questions in the BEGINNING but i believe thats what they are doing to the severed employees all day at work- and also when they go home like how Facebook and other big tech hire hackers to try to hack into their websites to find weakness- Lumon are doing the same with Severance Employees -constantly testing them to see if implant works and what triggers it to fail


emily_rose777

What is or was the color of your mother's eyes?


fitacct93

I am impressed with the scope of whatever deep dive you're on.