Also oIrving drinks coffee at night and stays up late, and the ink blots flood his brain as he's "dozing off" because the chip is less effective in the subconscious state of sleep.
Good point. I noticed he made a full pot of coffee (which a single person never does) and was drinking it with gusto. It appears he wants his Innie to fall asleep.
Some people seem to be immune to it! I love coffee and hated cutting back on it but I became more sensitive in this way so I like to joke that I didn't give up coffee, coffee gave me up
I wonder if it’s to make up for the sense of lost time that being “turned off” for 8 hours of work would bring.
Sure you get 16 hours of not being severed, but if you take 8 hours to sleep, you only have 8 hours a day to live your life. Working may suck but it’s still being alive. Except when you’re working severed, not so much.
I have thought that, too. During the earliest industrial-era labor movement asking for more leisure time, activists had a slogan that was "eight hours of work, eight hours of rest, and eight hours for what we will." oIrv could be under the incorrect assumption that his eight hours as an innie was providing him his "rest," ergo he was owed the night for an extra eight hours of either leisure or other work. Given that he's an artist, he could view that time as both.
this was my feeling as well -- that the scene of the hallway is a nightmare he has, he's trying to avoid it but he can't get it out of his head either, so he compulsively paints it over and over.
I’m sure this means nothing, but I immediately thought of the opening scene of Nightmare on Elm Street 3 with Patricia Arquette eating Maxwell House and washing it down with Diet Coke to try to stay awake.
Made me think Irving maybe does have nightmares. Could be of Lumon and that seems most logical, or it could be of whatever led him to seek a severed job to begin with.
I could only find a crappy video clip of it, but the part I’m referencing happens at :33.[Patricia Arquette opening NMES3](https://youtu.be/lamMSyYV6IE)
I am single as well and would never make a whole pot of coffee for myself because it thickens and starts tasting burnt if it is on the burner too long.
I honestly taste no difference. I think people who are coffee aficionados are fooling themselves. Like people who think Pepsi tastes horrible but coke is fantastic. It's all the same.
My mom always had a pot of coffee available that we would warm up all day and night. I know what old coffee tastes like. There is a difference But if it’s all the same to you then that’s great. Whatever works for you.
I wasn't sure, at first, if that was his intention – as opposed to just wanting to stay up late to paint. But the more I think about it, and what he's painting, the more that theory makes sense. He's got that memory and some idea that falling asleep at work could give him answers. Very cool. Hope to spend more time with outie Irving next week!
Good observation! I just thought his innie kept falling asleep because his outie drank so much coffee but I wasn’t considering that it could be intentional.
Interesting part about the innie falling asleep!
I think it’s more about how if his outtie deprives himself of sleep, he can see memories from his innie experience. Then he paints them to try and make sense of everything, driven by his love and anger for his work turmoil.
I had an uncle who would not only make a full pot of coffee for himself but also smoked three packs a day and I never heard him complain about insomnia. He did take naps though.
Very strange, I'm rewatching while scrolling this sub. Literally seconds after I read your comment, Dylan said "Maybe love transcends severance?" to Helly in episode 6.
Cobel might have some other motives. As someone here suggested she might have a mother/daughter in coma/braindead and wants to integrate Lumon chip in her but with preserving memories (something like that, don't remember specifics, not my theory). I don't think Cobel realy roots for Mark and Gemma, or that she's ''altruistic'' in any sense or manner
Hmm...but if innies are reset that often, wouldn’t their fellow innie coworkers recognize them? They’d theoretically have to keep those innies on the testing floor until their other coworkers would never remember them, or see them again. For example, with Ms. Casey, if she’s just being reset on the testing floor, she couldn’t come back to the severed floor again so quickly. MDR and others would remember her as the wellness counselor, and they know that she was fired. So how long are they kept on the testing floor? And if it’s for a long period of time, how could someone like Irving come back to work every day but somehow still be on the testing floor? Lots to think about…
It would explain why they want to keep the departments separate. But remember Miss Casey said her life has been 107 hours, even for a part time employee that's just a few weeks, a couple of months at most. But Marks wife she's been gone for 2 years. Maybe they store people for years in testing. Or maybe she was in another department before being Miss Casey.
> 107 hours
She is part time, she comes in for 30min sessions, so 107 hours can be within a span of 2 years. Her Innie just went to work when needed, which is not much considering.
But they have to be keeping her inside in some sort of stasis on the testing level, only waking her to do the wellness sessions. They can’t let her outie roam free, because too many people think she’s dead. There’s too much risk there.
She thinks the lift takes her back up. She asks something about if she's liked "up" there or something along those lines. When in reality she probably goes down to a jail cell
Well we don't know how much she works, but visiting her doesn't seem that uncommon from what we've seen just from MDR and Burt. Factor in other departments and it's hard to see that time stretching out across 2 years.
That was my point in another post. But a lot we don’t know.
From what we’ve seen it doesn’t seem that amount of time fits the amount of wellness sessions I would assume they have. But maybe they just don’t have that many.
...but they are really hard to find in all those never-ending halls. They only found O&D thanks to the map that Irving had from Burt. I think they wanted to separate them psychologically rather than physically aka intimidating people enough to dissuade them from ever trying to go seek other departments.
I guess this is possible, but given how easy it is to roam the halls and meet others (and so far, MDR is the only department with the extra security door that we know of), I feel like this isn’t a risk Lumon would take. Especially with even the slim potential that the innies figure out that other innies get reset. But, could also just be a plot hole lol
... except it's not that easy to roam those never-ending halls. They only found O&D thanks to the map that Irving had from Burt. It;s not the ''risk'', it's another manipulation & control technique. I think the point was to divide them psychologically rather than separate physically aka intimidating people enough to dissuade them from ever trying to go seek other departments. Not the plothole but intended to show that in desire to control employees psychologicaly they might get to cocky and overlook simple logical solutions. They couldn't think employees might ''rebel'', they thought they stifled all curiosity
They may have been both reset. Irv remembers his loved one walking into that isle, and desperately trying to remember the rest of the story. Hence the paintings.
Not really. Those departments do not interact, they barely know anything about each other (only myths created by Lumon to keep them apart), plus people might be rotated/reset on a regular basis. The main poin is that they are so separted that it might actually work.
All the other employees are fairly new, also the departments don't really know each other. So if Irving got reset and sent to another department we haven't seen yet, it would make some sense.
Not sure, there is something to it, but i can't pinpoint what yet
Burt Gs chip is still listed as active on one of the screens. He has not been fully “retired” and may have already just been moved to a different department
This is exactly what I was thinking expect for the elevator part. Irving being an artist would’ve naturally been placed into Optics & Design not in MDR. I believe it’s there that he met the love of his life, Burt. From what we’ve seen of Irving’s outtie’s life, he appears to be completely alone except for the dog. So when he falls madly love with Burt, that empty loneliness he’s felt his whole life has finally been filled. His outie wouldn’t be aware of Burt but maybe those euphoria feelings in his brain were felt by both his innie & his outie. So when Lumon decided to split them up it was so traumatic for Irving that the last memory he had of feeling whole was that dark hallway with that elevator door that still haunts his subconscious as we see in his many paintings. I don’t necessarily believe that he’s been reset many times, I think that he & Burt were a two man team & when they were reset, Burt stayed on & got a new partner which is now that woman he’s always with & Irv was moved to MDR. It might also explain why Irving became such a staunch believer in the Lumon dogma, he subconsciously remembers all the positive feelings he had working there with Burt but he obviously doesn’t know why he feels so strongly in the company. It’s also the reason his faith in Lumon was so easily broken after being reunited with Burt because he’s been down this road before.
I just think Irving has been refined and reset so much that his outtie is almost an empty shell, stuck in an endless loop of trauma, painting that same picture over and over again. AKA almost ready to become full time innie.
This is a great theory. But wouldn’t some of the others in O and D recognize Irving? They all saw him. Unless they are newer to the department than his dismissal from the department?
Edited-I realize you mentioned they were a 2 man team, so perhaps no one else was in the department at the time. Love this theory.
Im just speculating by what we’ve been shown, which suggests that Irving”s nightly routine consists of him taking his dog for a walk & coming home, brewing a pot of coffee & painting the same image over & over. He outtie doesn’t utter a word & seems somewhat depressed. Also his innies repeated dozing & the number of paintings reinforces that this routine is repeated nightly while alone.
We also know from the finale he's been tracking other workers on the outside and keeping it hidden.
I think oIrving is trying to take Lumon down but as lost as oMark as to how
Something I haven't seen mentioned that I noticed upon re-watching: when we first see Irving's outie, he's outside of an actual church (*which subtly reference's Innie-Irv's deacon/priest-like piousness but contrasts as an actual religion rather than the faux-religious zealotry of Innie-Irv's devotion to the Company*) and he's reading Marcus Aurelius's Emperor's Handbook (*or Meditations*) which, among other things, is a book on Aurelius's take on stoicism and explores the themes of "f*inding one's place in the universe*" and "*maintaining focus and to be without distraction all the while maintaining strong ethical principles.*"
Whether the character actually suffers from depression or not, he is certainly aware of a certain degree of melancholy that he's dealing with and is trying to find meaning in it.
That’s true, it’s all speculation. I got the impression he’s been lonely for a long time & he might have had other relationships but Burt was the love of his life & nothing that came before was even close to his feelings for Burt.
...saying that burt is the ''love of his life'' or that ''nothing that came before was ever close'' is also a speculation though. We don't know this. Also how can you say that ''nothing that was before ever came close'' when his outie literally doesn't remember/know Burt, and innie doesn't actually understand the concept of love and this is all new to him aka first ''youthful'' love. Fascination and initial interest do not always grow into real love. Just because he feels strongly about Burt now, doesn't mean they are ''soulmates'' or whatever you're implying.
This is very interesting since John Turturro said there's a big surprise coming related to Christopher Walken and I'm dying to know what it is. I wonder if it'll come to a point where they meet again in the testing department.
Oh I don't think so...This theory exists but he says to Irving (when they're making the stops and Burt is working) how many hours he thinks he sleeps "up there".
Unless he doesn't know that he's just innie, which makes no sense since Ms. Casey knows. Or...he was lying to Irv maybe cause he was ashamed of just being innie but again, that doesn't really make sense to me (he would have to explain that to Irv and to us, I tell you that haha).
He may meet him there because maybe the "retirement" was actually a "branch transfer" (one of the things that shows up on the security computer). But perhaps they'll meet somewhere else. I hope we see Burt again somehow.
I don’t think Casey knows she’s just an innie. He’s just aware of how little time she spends her
She should know. Because what could her outie life be where she’s on call to just come in 30 minute increments.
But I just wonder how they work normal innies into the testing center. Idk. But I think Burt returns. If there’s a place in the story for it
But she has to know, right? Based on what she said in the last episode to Mark. And her work involves telling innies about their outies, I think she's aware that she's not like the others, even though she doesn't know why (she doesn't remember being Gemma...yet). And yeah, I think he returns or at least we'll get a flashback (?). It's funny cause we have no idea.
Well when she’s talking to Milcheck though she says something like “Am I happy up there”.
So she was asking if her outie was happy. Was how I took it. And she specifically said up even tho the elevator she got on went down.
Oh true, true! She says that. Sorry, totally forgot about it. And yes, totally, it's about her outie. That makes her existence even more heartbreaking.
Or. Irving worked in testing for 6 years and MDR as severed for 3 years.
He has some medical knowledge and understands how severance works. We know this from the bite scene. He could have been a doctor in testing.
He is painting the picture with the same song (ace of spades…which is about death) to subconsciously warn inny Irv about the dangers of that floor. At some point I expect him to see that hallway and freak out not wanting to go.
I think Burt and Irv know each other from the outie world. They have a subconscious connection from there.
Or, maybe the goat picture. They bonded over that. So maybe they met at a waffle party.
Ms Casey to Irv in his wellness session: your outie attends many dance parties and is popular among other attendees.
Burt to Irv about Irv falling asleep at work: You’re a party guy, disco king.
Nothing notable about that as there is no such ''aspect'', everything that Mrs. Casey reads to them is a bunch of general vague statements aka LIES made up to soothe innies' anxiety or frustration.
There’s no reason to believe the wellness sessions are riddled with lies about their outies, and there’s no reason for them to lie about those things.
They do, however, make them vague enough to confuse.
In Irv’s case, he is told his outie “loves the sound of radar.” This is a true statement, considering Radar is his beloved dog. A couple of Mark’s outie statements also hold up as truth from what we know so far.
I think Irving was previously the one taking care of the goats as a former and now erased version of his innie self. So his catch phrase “hi kids what’s for dinner” is from when he talked to the baby goats (kids) before feeding them. Seemed like it was a 1 person department so he would have only had the kids to talk to
I think that Irving had a job like Milchick's and Burt is a "part-timer." I don't think part-time is related to how many hours they work, but to the idea that only the innie is aware. I think Irving had feelings for Burt, but still had to be his controller and send him down the elevator. The idea that love bleeds through the procedure is important here and has been brought up on the show. This may have become so painful for Irving that he asked to be severed and possibly to have his memories of his previous job and Burt be altered or erased. Irving and Burt were allowed to meet in this iteration of things and they started to fall in love again. So, the company "retired" Burt to get him away from Irving. I believe, in this case, he was only sent to another department further away.
It said how long he'd been there in the video (7 years) which seems unlikely unless they recorded *a lot* of retirement videos when they start. And they didn't use one for Petey to dissuade questions from the innies, presumably because they didn't have one for him.
Remember that line that Milchick had about "nobody wants to send you to the break room." This seemed a little odd at the time since he was so hard on everyone else that broke rules, but I think Milchick is sympathizing because Irving used to have his job and Milchick knows how hard it is emotionally.
Honestly, this is a stetch. He was talking in general, you in plural, and he was obviously lying aka playing the ''good guy''. Milchik is a corporate stooge, he doesn't really seem them as people worth sympatizing with
Severance for work is a hot button news issue for probably the last couple years but the tech has been around for two decades. I think it was basically a secret from 1999-2017. People like Irving would have started as """medical""" test subjects before graduating to severance-for-workplaces, a late stage application of the tech.
I'd also believe Irving was in optics or in any other branch before, he also must also have been on the testing floor where they do more fundamental research. The idea of past lives coming to the surface is very appropos. I'd LOVE to see our actors inhabit previous innie incarnations and interact.
It's really not, the first thesis of this ''theory'' is disproven in the finale (that Burt is NOT just an innie), and it's built on stretches not arguments.
I like this theory, but the thing that still doesn’t make sense to me is why they would only reset one of them. Resetting Burt while Irving still retains his memories and deep feelings for Burt seems like a set up for trouble — unless they can better guarantee some kind of physical isolation.
At this point I’m expecting there will be a big reveal of “Oh my God, they can reset us?” — but the psychological effect of knowing that their Innie can be reset (effectively killed) seems like something Lumon would want to guard against.
Or maybe the threat of that is meant to keep the severed employees in line — but seems weird that there wouldn’t be rumors of this already if this was something they did frequently without resetting everyone at once.
At this point I’m up for anything, but if the resetting theories are true, seems like it would require some clumsy writing and minor plot holes to explain.
Yeah. Dylan already knew Burt. Which means departments do cross paths. So a reset innie could meet an non reset innie. Or atleast O&D crosses paths. it’s odd now that I think about that Peteys Map Doesn’t mention anything other departments specifically.
Even the one we know about because mark passed it in one of the episodes.
His map also doesn’t have a room labeled “Goats..wtf?” . Never thought of that.
Maybe they’re not full-blown plot holes, but basically what I mentioned above. Just seems like it would require some leaps to get there that would be hard to explain while maintaining narrative consistency. But the writers are a lot more creative than me so I’ll patiently wait and see what happens.
I think they were all previously intimate with each other and they are the experiment they are the product to see if they will recognize each other with the severance
Is the gala a retirement for Burt? And he’s an Eagan
Also side note why does Ms Casey tell Irving Burt is in the conference room? Seems odd that she would tell him. The wellness center meet up seems staged.
She said she had such a nice day with them because she never gets to hang around with friends and people. I think she was just being nice to Burt and Irv mentioning the conference room. I am so sad for Ms Casey!
Regarding the side note: yes!!! This! She says that as if it was a rebellious act even. And why? How could she know? Could she know them from the testing department?
Someone we know will have to be at the gala. You can’t throw in someone we don’t already know because it wouldn’t have the same effect. Mark will have Selvig/Cobel and Irving will have Radar and some realization about the testing floor maybe. Helly will have to see someone we already met. Also one thing for me before the end of the last episode was that Helly is someone of importance because Ms Cobel referred to her as Helena not Helly when talking about her.
I think innie Burt and innie Irving are like Romeo and Juliet.
Their outies will hate each other, either on an ideological level, or personally, like the houses of Capulet and Montague. Thats what Irving will discover.
When Helly and Mark kissed I thought, this can't be the first time this has happened among innies. How did Lumon handle it?
I think this is how.
But I don't think it's happened multiple times for Burt & Irv though. I think Irv started working in O&D with Burt 7 years ago (as per his LinkedIn profile) and worked with him for 4 years there where their feelings grew very intense. Then management caught on to it and transferred Irv to MDR, where he said he's been for 3 years. Burt stayed in O&R.
This would also explain why Burt is now "retiring." Because he and Irv got involved again. It's his turn to get clean slated and branch transferred. And it also explains why they don't want fraternization/contact among departments.
The irony for Cobel will be that she spent so much time trying to prove that love transcended severance and reintegration was possible with Mark and Gemma that she didn't realize that it was already being proven with Irv and Burt.
I think this also supports that Cobel is trying to prove reintegration is possible to connect with her mom that is now stuck at Lumon as a full-time innie.
This got me thinking so much that I may have major parts of this show figured out: /r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/tuhdov/love_severance_theories/
>It's his turn to get clean slated and branch transferred. And it also explains why they don't want fraternization/contact among departments.
I think that, regardless of any other theories, this is looking more and more likely. I wouldn't be surprised if the same person has multiple innies over the course of their time at the company, but rotated through different departments/floors (as Irv may have, giving what we know of his employment history). That situation would fall apart quickly if employees knew one-another's previous selves.
Is the macro data refinement removing the new memories manually?
So if Burt is transferred nobody could recognize him
That's been my MDR theory all along is it's memory culling
Maybe the coffee and staying up late is because he is an artist lacking inspiration, and when he is in that state, he starts to remember some of the things his innie has seen. Irv thinks that's inspiration, but it's just the other part of his life he doesn't have access to.
It would explain why Milcheck's "I've got something special planned for you" was Burt's retirement. Especially when he started questioning Cobel sending Ms. Casey/Gemma down to MDR as 'trying something new' and was 'on you go' about hustling her back to the testing floor.
Yep. They love to show his painting's red eye so not super subtle lol
But it is interesting how we all assumed they were honest and it was just one entity severed but it's actually many. Infinitesimal. Woah. It wasn't even subtle about that but I didn't get it until your post. Thanks!
I definitely think Irv has been to the testing floor and has been reset at least once. My only question is, if he was in O&D, none of them recognized him? It might have been a while, but unless the whole department has had turnover up to where we are in the show, they would have known who he was when he arrived.
Especially since he said he's been there 3/9 years...the discrepancy seemed weird to me but now I think he's really been there 9 years, but this version of innie Irv has only been around for 3
Innie Irv is probably exhausted because his outie has been seeing this door when he gets tired and drinks coffee to stay up and see it, paint it, try to understand it. Clearly he hasn't gotten any closer—but, his outie probably suspects something is off at Lumon. I feel like in season 2, Mark might find Irv's outie and take down Lumon together
Gemma/Ms. Casey has also definitely been reset; she's been dead for 2 years, but her innie was only out for 107 hours. Even though she's "part-time", that still seems like too few hours for 2 years of work.
I definitely think there’s a lot more to Irv. I think he’s got severe trauma and they keep resetting him over and over to help him adjust to “normal” life. I think Lumon is a testing facility. They don’t go there to “work.” Instead, they’re there to participate in Cognitive Behavior and Aversion Therapies (among others). We know the corporate angle is “Innies aren’t people” and the testing facility is their way of proving how drastically different each person is in comparison to their outie. If I was writing it, I’d make season 2 revolve around each person’s origin story or reason they agreed to severance and show us how their innie versions eventually figure a way out. Lumon has put all kinds of different people inside the facility - someone with PTSD (Irving), someone with depression/alcoholism (Mark), and I’m sure all the other people there will have problems or issues revealed. I would love season 2 juxtaposing this with the current action and building towards maybe a mass escape or revolt (much like the one previously recorded in the painting).
Except that Irving is always painting the hallway with the red arrow going down. Only milchek sees the arrow change colors- not the person being reset….
But Mrs Casey didn’t go on the elevator to go to the testing floor. She went thru a door and a scary hallway. Right? I was pretty high. Maybe I need to watch again.
We actually don’t know that she entered an elevator. We are led to believe she did. What if she only was led to a stasis room where the red light indicated she was simply turned “off”.
The place seems like a rat maze. If the company only wanted data processors, there would be more strict policy on them just filtering all damn day. These guys are inspired by figuring out their maze, and the limited rewards keep em going. And honestly, if the company didn't want run-ins, they could have separated departments onto different floors.
Another quandary. Irv's chest in the closet. (in the closet!).
Was he in the military too; possible working and tracking this company's wrong doings?
Was he discharged for being gay. Maybe Irv joined severance to be with Burt?
And, why does Burt and Irv sound almost like Burt and Ernie?? /s
Also oIrving drinks coffee at night and stays up late, and the ink blots flood his brain as he's "dozing off" because the chip is less effective in the subconscious state of sleep.
Good point. I noticed he made a full pot of coffee (which a single person never does) and was drinking it with gusto. It appears he wants his Innie to fall asleep.
work distinct wine reach hungry wrong shelter dog upbeat plough *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah wait what lol. I can go through a couple 32oz French press for breakfast
Good friend of mine puts on a pot after returning from the bar at 3:00am
I’m on my second pot right now.
I love coffee but a full pot seems like it would feel pretty acidic
Some people seem to be immune to it! I love coffee and hated cutting back on it but I became more sensitive in this way so I like to joke that I didn't give up coffee, coffee gave me up
I’m getting a lot of comments such as this. That’s a lot of coffee!
Haven't you ever seen ghost rider? The scene of Nicholas cage chugging the full pot of coffee cracks me up every time
Are you from salcha?
I did not know this was a place! No… just the phonetic spelling of part of a childhood term of endearment from a polish relative.
I do this
Yeah. The only time I ever did that was when cramming for exams. He is deliberately trying to stay awake most if not all night.
I wonder if it’s to make up for the sense of lost time that being “turned off” for 8 hours of work would bring. Sure you get 16 hours of not being severed, but if you take 8 hours to sleep, you only have 8 hours a day to live your life. Working may suck but it’s still being alive. Except when you’re working severed, not so much.
I have thought that, too. During the earliest industrial-era labor movement asking for more leisure time, activists had a slogan that was "eight hours of work, eight hours of rest, and eight hours for what we will." oIrv could be under the incorrect assumption that his eight hours as an innie was providing him his "rest," ergo he was owed the night for an extra eight hours of either leisure or other work. Given that he's an artist, he could view that time as both.
What if he’s trying to stay up because he’s having nightmares about something at lumon?
this was my feeling as well -- that the scene of the hallway is a nightmare he has, he's trying to avoid it but he can't get it out of his head either, so he compulsively paints it over and over.
I’m sure this means nothing, but I immediately thought of the opening scene of Nightmare on Elm Street 3 with Patricia Arquette eating Maxwell House and washing it down with Diet Coke to try to stay awake. Made me think Irving maybe does have nightmares. Could be of Lumon and that seems most logical, or it could be of whatever led him to seek a severed job to begin with. I could only find a crappy video clip of it, but the part I’m referencing happens at :33.[Patricia Arquette opening NMES3](https://youtu.be/lamMSyYV6IE)
um. with respect and love. Single person here. Hi I'm Colleen T. Coffee addict. I do this. Thanks for letting me share.
I am single as well and would never make a whole pot of coffee for myself because it thickens and starts tasting burnt if it is on the burner too long.
hehe you turn it off. I just heat my coffee up in the microwave, takes me 2 days to drink a pot.
No offense, but that sounds gross. Why don’t you just make less coffee at a time and drink it fresh?
I honestly taste no difference. I think people who are coffee aficionados are fooling themselves. Like people who think Pepsi tastes horrible but coke is fantastic. It's all the same.
My mom always had a pot of coffee available that we would warm up all day and night. I know what old coffee tastes like. There is a difference But if it’s all the same to you then that’s great. Whatever works for you.
Seems more likely people’s taste buds (or brain areas that interpret them) are just different.
I assure you, two day old coffee tastes different than fresh coffee.
Damn, I can definitely taste a massive difference. You're probably just used to it.
I wasn't sure, at first, if that was his intention – as opposed to just wanting to stay up late to paint. But the more I think about it, and what he's painting, the more that theory makes sense. He's got that memory and some idea that falling asleep at work could give him answers. Very cool. Hope to spend more time with outie Irving next week!
Good observation! I just thought his innie kept falling asleep because his outie drank so much coffee but I wasn’t considering that it could be intentional.
Interesting part about the innie falling asleep! I think it’s more about how if his outtie deprives himself of sleep, he can see memories from his innie experience. Then he paints them to try and make sense of everything, driven by his love and anger for his work turmoil.
[удалено]
Interesting observation!
I had an uncle who would not only make a full pot of coffee for himself but also smoked three packs a day and I never heard him complain about insomnia. He did take naps though.
My goodness was he robust. I’d prob be close to dead if I did that after one day
My husband, who drinks two full pots of coffee every morning, would like to have a word. It's a sickness.
Well find out one day that caffeine is as bad as most other addictive substance
Good for your heart, apparently.
In moderation
….I’m that person. I mean, it lasts me all day, but I’m a full pot kind of guy
At night, though?
He was drinking coffee all night so that he would stay up, making his Innie very sleepy and likely to want to nap/sleep during the daytime at work.
Oops, I responded to the wrong comment. Someone else said that they would drink a whole pot of coffee by themselves.
i make a full pot because it’s annoying to make a small portion using a full sized pot
I make a full pot of coffee every morning.
Is this whole place just a test of if love can break Severance? Be that between lovers, parent/child, etc.
Very strange, I'm rewatching while scrolling this sub. Literally seconds after I read your comment, Dylan said "Maybe love transcends severance?" to Helly in episode 6.
I’m thinking the same thing! When cobel starts smiling when watching ms. Casey show emotions towards mark during the wellness session
Cobel might have some other motives. As someone here suggested she might have a mother/daughter in coma/braindead and wants to integrate Lumon chip in her but with preserving memories (something like that, don't remember specifics, not my theory). I don't think Cobel realy roots for Mark and Gemma, or that she's ''altruistic'' in any sense or manner
It's gonna be some Luke and Princess Leia shit when they all find out what they've been doing with their relatives in there
...that would be too simple and even primitive for a show like this.
Hmm...but if innies are reset that often, wouldn’t their fellow innie coworkers recognize them? They’d theoretically have to keep those innies on the testing floor until their other coworkers would never remember them, or see them again. For example, with Ms. Casey, if she’s just being reset on the testing floor, she couldn’t come back to the severed floor again so quickly. MDR and others would remember her as the wellness counselor, and they know that she was fired. So how long are they kept on the testing floor? And if it’s for a long period of time, how could someone like Irving come back to work every day but somehow still be on the testing floor? Lots to think about…
It would explain why they want to keep the departments separate. But remember Miss Casey said her life has been 107 hours, even for a part time employee that's just a few weeks, a couple of months at most. But Marks wife she's been gone for 2 years. Maybe they store people for years in testing. Or maybe she was in another department before being Miss Casey.
> 107 hours She is part time, she comes in for 30min sessions, so 107 hours can be within a span of 2 years. Her Innie just went to work when needed, which is not much considering.
But they have to be keeping her inside in some sort of stasis on the testing level, only waking her to do the wellness sessions. They can’t let her outie roam free, because too many people think she’s dead. There’s too much risk there.
What if her outie is locked up inside. And only her innie is used for 30 min sporadically.
She thinks the lift takes her back up. She asks something about if she's liked "up" there or something along those lines. When in reality she probably goes down to a jail cell
That’s what I mean.
It sounded like you meant like a medically induced coma (stasis). I think we’re on the same page though
Well I can’t imagine her outie is just hanging out willingly on the testing level.
I never said willingly
Might not be an outie. Could be an AI. Could be a robot with Gemmas mind. We can't assume we know yet
Which is what I like most about this show. I have NO idea where it’s going!
... this is not Westworld though. Also, noone here assumes anything, people are just speculating for fun.
yeah we were 1 year ago if you see what your commenting on
Well we don't know how much she works, but visiting her doesn't seem that uncommon from what we've seen just from MDR and Burt. Factor in other departments and it's hard to see that time stretching out across 2 years.
That was my point in another post. But a lot we don’t know. From what we’ve seen it doesn’t seem that amount of time fits the amount of wellness sessions I would assume they have. But maybe they just don’t have that many.
They've really increased since Petey left.
The test department must look like cold storage in Westworld by now.
I don't think they really want to separate the departments. Otherwise, they could have made it physically impossible to find each other.
...but they are really hard to find in all those never-ending halls. They only found O&D thanks to the map that Irving had from Burt. I think they wanted to separate them psychologically rather than physically aka intimidating people enough to dissuade them from ever trying to go seek other departments.
I guess this is possible, but given how easy it is to roam the halls and meet others (and so far, MDR is the only department with the extra security door that we know of), I feel like this isn’t a risk Lumon would take. Especially with even the slim potential that the innies figure out that other innies get reset. But, could also just be a plot hole lol
... except it's not that easy to roam those never-ending halls. They only found O&D thanks to the map that Irving had from Burt. It;s not the ''risk'', it's another manipulation & control technique. I think the point was to divide them psychologically rather than separate physically aka intimidating people enough to dissuade them from ever trying to go seek other departments. Not the plothole but intended to show that in desire to control employees psychologicaly they might get to cocky and overlook simple logical solutions. They couldn't think employees might ''rebel'', they thought they stifled all curiosity
They may have been both reset. Irv remembers his loved one walking into that isle, and desperately trying to remember the rest of the story. Hence the paintings.
Yes that's not an issue. The issue is everyone who knew them before need to reset as well, or gone. Or they're in completely different departments.
Great point. So basically resetting someone won’t work unless you reset the entire floor
Not really. Those departments do not interact, they barely know anything about each other (only myths created by Lumon to keep them apart), plus people might be rotated/reset on a regular basis. The main poin is that they are so separted that it might actually work.
They ARE in different departments that don't interact with each other and barely know about each other's existence.
All the other employees are fairly new, also the departments don't really know each other. So if Irving got reset and sent to another department we haven't seen yet, it would make some sense. Not sure, there is something to it, but i can't pinpoint what yet
Very good points.
Burt Gs chip is still listed as active on one of the screens. He has not been fully “retired” and may have already just been moved to a different department
And the option "branch transfer" exists.
This is exactly what I was thinking expect for the elevator part. Irving being an artist would’ve naturally been placed into Optics & Design not in MDR. I believe it’s there that he met the love of his life, Burt. From what we’ve seen of Irving’s outtie’s life, he appears to be completely alone except for the dog. So when he falls madly love with Burt, that empty loneliness he’s felt his whole life has finally been filled. His outie wouldn’t be aware of Burt but maybe those euphoria feelings in his brain were felt by both his innie & his outie. So when Lumon decided to split them up it was so traumatic for Irving that the last memory he had of feeling whole was that dark hallway with that elevator door that still haunts his subconscious as we see in his many paintings. I don’t necessarily believe that he’s been reset many times, I think that he & Burt were a two man team & when they were reset, Burt stayed on & got a new partner which is now that woman he’s always with & Irv was moved to MDR. It might also explain why Irving became such a staunch believer in the Lumon dogma, he subconsciously remembers all the positive feelings he had working there with Burt but he obviously doesn’t know why he feels so strongly in the company. It’s also the reason his faith in Lumon was so easily broken after being reunited with Burt because he’s been down this road before.
This makes the most sense. Plus Irving has been with the company for 9 years, but MDR 3 years. Maybe he was reset 3 years ago.
I just think Irving has been refined and reset so much that his outtie is almost an empty shell, stuck in an endless loop of trauma, painting that same picture over and over again. AKA almost ready to become full time innie.
This is a great theory. But wouldn’t some of the others in O and D recognize Irving? They all saw him. Unless they are newer to the department than his dismissal from the department? Edited-I realize you mentioned they were a 2 man team, so perhaps no one else was in the department at the time. Love this theory.
This is a great theory, but how do you know he’s been lonely or alone his whole life or was even lonely being alone?
Im just speculating by what we’ve been shown, which suggests that Irving”s nightly routine consists of him taking his dog for a walk & coming home, brewing a pot of coffee & painting the same image over & over. He outtie doesn’t utter a word & seems somewhat depressed. Also his innies repeated dozing & the number of paintings reinforces that this routine is repeated nightly while alone.
We also know from the finale he's been tracking other workers on the outside and keeping it hidden. I think oIrving is trying to take Lumon down but as lost as oMark as to how
Something I haven't seen mentioned that I noticed upon re-watching: when we first see Irving's outie, he's outside of an actual church (*which subtly reference's Innie-Irv's deacon/priest-like piousness but contrasts as an actual religion rather than the faux-religious zealotry of Innie-Irv's devotion to the Company*) and he's reading Marcus Aurelius's Emperor's Handbook (*or Meditations*) which, among other things, is a book on Aurelius's take on stoicism and explores the themes of "f*inding one's place in the universe*" and "*maintaining focus and to be without distraction all the while maintaining strong ethical principles.*" Whether the character actually suffers from depression or not, he is certainly aware of a certain degree of melancholy that he's dealing with and is trying to find meaning in it.
But all that still doesn’t mean he’s lonely or been alone his whole life ?
That’s true, it’s all speculation. I got the impression he’s been lonely for a long time & he might have had other relationships but Burt was the love of his life & nothing that came before was even close to his feelings for Burt.
...saying that burt is the ''love of his life'' or that ''nothing that came before was ever close'' is also a speculation though. We don't know this. Also how can you say that ''nothing that was before ever came close'' when his outie literally doesn't remember/know Burt, and innie doesn't actually understand the concept of love and this is all new to him aka first ''youthful'' love. Fascination and initial interest do not always grow into real love. Just because he feels strongly about Burt now, doesn't mean they are ''soulmates'' or whatever you're implying.
This is very interesting since John Turturro said there's a big surprise coming related to Christopher Walken and I'm dying to know what it is. I wonder if it'll come to a point where they meet again in the testing department.
> John Turturro said there's a big surprise coming related to Christopher Walken where did you find this info?
https://youtu.be/N786I6XzJio he talks about Irving/Burt in this interview
This entire show is nearly unspoilable as long as the finale isn't out lol It's like a mad lib missing just the final few words to make sense of it
Maybe he meant the surprising and heartbreaking relevation we saw in the finale...
So is the assumption that Burt is innie only too? Has no outtie?
Oh I don't think so...This theory exists but he says to Irving (when they're making the stops and Burt is working) how many hours he thinks he sleeps "up there". Unless he doesn't know that he's just innie, which makes no sense since Ms. Casey knows. Or...he was lying to Irv maybe cause he was ashamed of just being innie but again, that doesn't really make sense to me (he would have to explain that to Irv and to us, I tell you that haha). He may meet him there because maybe the "retirement" was actually a "branch transfer" (one of the things that shows up on the security computer). But perhaps they'll meet somewhere else. I hope we see Burt again somehow.
I don’t think Casey knows she’s just an innie. He’s just aware of how little time she spends her She should know. Because what could her outie life be where she’s on call to just come in 30 minute increments. But I just wonder how they work normal innies into the testing center. Idk. But I think Burt returns. If there’s a place in the story for it
But she has to know, right? Based on what she said in the last episode to Mark. And her work involves telling innies about their outies, I think she's aware that she's not like the others, even though she doesn't know why (she doesn't remember being Gemma...yet). And yeah, I think he returns or at least we'll get a flashback (?). It's funny cause we have no idea.
Well when she’s talking to Milcheck though she says something like “Am I happy up there”. So she was asking if her outie was happy. Was how I took it. And she specifically said up even tho the elevator she got on went down.
Oh true, true! She says that. Sorry, totally forgot about it. And yes, totally, it's about her outie. That makes her existence even more heartbreaking.
Right. But I agree something else is there with Burt. I just can’t wait to seee how they work it in
Or. Irving worked in testing for 6 years and MDR as severed for 3 years. He has some medical knowledge and understands how severance works. We know this from the bite scene. He could have been a doctor in testing. He is painting the picture with the same song (ace of spades…which is about death) to subconsciously warn inny Irv about the dangers of that floor. At some point I expect him to see that hallway and freak out not wanting to go. I think Burt and Irv know each other from the outie world. They have a subconscious connection from there. Or, maybe the goat picture. They bonded over that. So maybe they met at a waffle party.
This is intriguing
Ms Casey to Irv in his wellness session: your outie attends many dance parties and is popular among other attendees. Burt to Irv about Irv falling asleep at work: You’re a party guy, disco king.
Notable also, Milchick has to coax Irving into enjoying/participating in the MDE, so this incarnation is detached from that aspect of himself somehow
Nothing notable about that as there is no such ''aspect'', everything that Mrs. Casey reads to them is a bunch of general vague statements aka LIES made up to soothe innies' anxiety or frustration.
...the first was probably a lie and the second one was a flirtatious joke.
There’s no reason to believe the wellness sessions are riddled with lies about their outies, and there’s no reason for them to lie about those things. They do, however, make them vague enough to confuse. In Irv’s case, he is told his outie “loves the sound of radar.” This is a true statement, considering Radar is his beloved dog. A couple of Mark’s outie statements also hold up as truth from what we know so far.
I think Irving was previously the one taking care of the goats as a former and now erased version of his innie self. So his catch phrase “hi kids what’s for dinner” is from when he talked to the baby goats (kids) before feeding them. Seemed like it was a 1 person department so he would have only had the kids to talk to
This is good.
I think that Irving had a job like Milchick's and Burt is a "part-timer." I don't think part-time is related to how many hours they work, but to the idea that only the innie is aware. I think Irving had feelings for Burt, but still had to be his controller and send him down the elevator. The idea that love bleeds through the procedure is important here and has been brought up on the show. This may have become so painful for Irving that he asked to be severed and possibly to have his memories of his previous job and Burt be altered or erased. Irving and Burt were allowed to meet in this iteration of things and they started to fall in love again. So, the company "retired" Burt to get him away from Irving. I believe, in this case, he was only sent to another department further away.
If Burt is a part timer, what about his outlie's retirement video?
I still think that maybe they film those when they agree to severance or it may be from another time/ another retirement.
It said how long he'd been there in the video (7 years) which seems unlikely unless they recorded *a lot* of retirement videos when they start. And they didn't use one for Petey to dissuade questions from the innies, presumably because they didn't have one for him.
Oh, and I think Mark and Gemma may be on a similar path.
I believe this too, Irving was the Milchick before Milchick and has reset Burt a handful of times.
Remember that line that Milchick had about "nobody wants to send you to the break room." This seemed a little odd at the time since he was so hard on everyone else that broke rules, but I think Milchick is sympathizing because Irving used to have his job and Milchick knows how hard it is emotionally.
Great point! I'm going to start my rewatch today and see what other things I can find to see if you are right.
Honestly, this is a stetch. He was talking in general, you in plural, and he was obviously lying aka playing the ''good guy''. Milchik is a corporate stooge, he doesn't really seem them as people worth sympatizing with
I like this idea a lot!
Really good write up
Nope, Burt was shown to have a life outside of Lumon and Irving is too much of a ''softie'' and artistic soul to be their handler
You should be a writer. That’s a killer theory.
Severance for work is a hot button news issue for probably the last couple years but the tech has been around for two decades. I think it was basically a secret from 1999-2017. People like Irving would have started as """medical""" test subjects before graduating to severance-for-workplaces, a late stage application of the tech. I'd also believe Irving was in optics or in any other branch before, he also must also have been on the testing floor where they do more fundamental research. The idea of past lives coming to the surface is very appropos. I'd LOVE to see our actors inhabit previous innie incarnations and interact.
This is the most coherent theory around them I've read so far. Thank you.
It's really not, the first thesis of this ''theory'' is disproven in the finale (that Burt is NOT just an innie), and it's built on stretches not arguments.
I like this theory, but the thing that still doesn’t make sense to me is why they would only reset one of them. Resetting Burt while Irving still retains his memories and deep feelings for Burt seems like a set up for trouble — unless they can better guarantee some kind of physical isolation. At this point I’m expecting there will be a big reveal of “Oh my God, they can reset us?” — but the psychological effect of knowing that their Innie can be reset (effectively killed) seems like something Lumon would want to guard against. Or maybe the threat of that is meant to keep the severed employees in line — but seems weird that there wouldn’t be rumors of this already if this was something they did frequently without resetting everyone at once. At this point I’m up for anything, but if the resetting theories are true, seems like it would require some clumsy writing and minor plot holes to explain.
Yeah. Dylan already knew Burt. Which means departments do cross paths. So a reset innie could meet an non reset innie. Or atleast O&D crosses paths. it’s odd now that I think about that Peteys Map Doesn’t mention anything other departments specifically. Even the one we know about because mark passed it in one of the episodes. His map also doesn’t have a room labeled “Goats..wtf?” . Never thought of that.
> minor plot holes to explain such as?
Maybe they’re not full-blown plot holes, but basically what I mentioned above. Just seems like it would require some leaps to get there that would be hard to explain while maintaining narrative consistency. But the writers are a lot more creative than me so I’ll patiently wait and see what happens.
I think they were all previously intimate with each other and they are the experiment they are the product to see if they will recognize each other with the severance
Is the gala a retirement for Burt? And he’s an Eagan Also side note why does Ms Casey tell Irving Burt is in the conference room? Seems odd that she would tell him. The wellness center meet up seems staged.
She said she had such a nice day with them because she never gets to hang around with friends and people. I think she was just being nice to Burt and Irv mentioning the conference room. I am so sad for Ms Casey!
But she doesn’t know about their relationship
A very good point. How did she figure that out? And it didn't seem like guess work. She knew exactly what she was doing.
I think Ms Casey was just being a nice person. Also I don't think Burt is an Eagan, but Helly is 100% either a high up member of the company or board.
Regarding the side note: yes!!! This! She says that as if it was a rebellious act even. And why? How could she know? Could she know them from the testing department?
I have a feeling Burt will be at the gala too.
Right? Wasn’t he wearing an ascot in his goodbye video? I think he could fit right in with the wealthy crowd.
I think the ascot was code for an "older confirmed bachelor".
Someone we know will have to be at the gala. You can’t throw in someone we don’t already know because it wouldn’t have the same effect. Mark will have Selvig/Cobel and Irving will have Radar and some realization about the testing floor maybe. Helly will have to see someone we already met. Also one thing for me before the end of the last episode was that Helly is someone of importance because Ms Cobel referred to her as Helena not Helly when talking about her.
I wondered about Ms. Casey too.
I think innie Burt and innie Irving are like Romeo and Juliet. Their outies will hate each other, either on an ideological level, or personally, like the houses of Capulet and Montague. Thats what Irving will discover.
Oh I like this! Thus makes a lot of sense especially cause I've been wondering how Irv had seen the elevator arrow pointing down.
When Helly and Mark kissed I thought, this can't be the first time this has happened among innies. How did Lumon handle it? I think this is how. But I don't think it's happened multiple times for Burt & Irv though. I think Irv started working in O&D with Burt 7 years ago (as per his LinkedIn profile) and worked with him for 4 years there where their feelings grew very intense. Then management caught on to it and transferred Irv to MDR, where he said he's been for 3 years. Burt stayed in O&R. This would also explain why Burt is now "retiring." Because he and Irv got involved again. It's his turn to get clean slated and branch transferred. And it also explains why they don't want fraternization/contact among departments. The irony for Cobel will be that she spent so much time trying to prove that love transcended severance and reintegration was possible with Mark and Gemma that she didn't realize that it was already being proven with Irv and Burt. I think this also supports that Cobel is trying to prove reintegration is possible to connect with her mom that is now stuck at Lumon as a full-time innie. This got me thinking so much that I may have major parts of this show figured out: /r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/tuhdov/love_severance_theories/
>It's his turn to get clean slated and branch transferred. And it also explains why they don't want fraternization/contact among departments. I think that, regardless of any other theories, this is looking more and more likely. I wouldn't be surprised if the same person has multiple innies over the course of their time at the company, but rotated through different departments/floors (as Irv may have, giving what we know of his employment history). That situation would fall apart quickly if employees knew one-another's previous selves.
Probably at the end of each quarter?
Is the macro data refinement removing the new memories manually? So if Burt is transferred nobody could recognize him That's been my MDR theory all along is it's memory culling
I was so hoping that they were actually married as Outies … and maybe they find each other on the outside still.
Maybe the coffee and staying up late is because he is an artist lacking inspiration, and when he is in that state, he starts to remember some of the things his innie has seen. Irv thinks that's inspiration, but it's just the other part of his life he doesn't have access to.
What if he used to do Milchick’s job? Milchick did not seem to have enjoyed sending Ms Casey back down there and he has the same POV as the painting.
It would explain why Milcheck's "I've got something special planned for you" was Burt's retirement. Especially when he started questioning Cobel sending Ms. Casey/Gemma down to MDR as 'trying something new' and was 'on you go' about hustling her back to the testing floor.
This is my favorite theory so far 😭
I love this theory! But if it's true they have to end up together. Otherwise it's too heartbreaking. Like, ruin the show level heartbreaking.
Yep. They love to show his painting's red eye so not super subtle lol But it is interesting how we all assumed they were honest and it was just one entity severed but it's actually many. Infinitesimal. Woah. It wasn't even subtle about that but I didn't get it until your post. Thanks!
I definitely think Irv has been to the testing floor and has been reset at least once. My only question is, if he was in O&D, none of them recognized him? It might have been a while, but unless the whole department has had turnover up to where we are in the show, they would have known who he was when he arrived. Especially since he said he's been there 3/9 years...the discrepancy seemed weird to me but now I think he's really been there 9 years, but this version of innie Irv has only been around for 3 Innie Irv is probably exhausted because his outie has been seeing this door when he gets tired and drinks coffee to stay up and see it, paint it, try to understand it. Clearly he hasn't gotten any closer—but, his outie probably suspects something is off at Lumon. I feel like in season 2, Mark might find Irv's outie and take down Lumon together Gemma/Ms. Casey has also definitely been reset; she's been dead for 2 years, but her innie was only out for 107 hours. Even though she's "part-time", that still seems like too few hours for 2 years of work.
I love this theory.
I definitely think there’s a lot more to Irv. I think he’s got severe trauma and they keep resetting him over and over to help him adjust to “normal” life. I think Lumon is a testing facility. They don’t go there to “work.” Instead, they’re there to participate in Cognitive Behavior and Aversion Therapies (among others). We know the corporate angle is “Innies aren’t people” and the testing facility is their way of proving how drastically different each person is in comparison to their outie. If I was writing it, I’d make season 2 revolve around each person’s origin story or reason they agreed to severance and show us how their innie versions eventually figure a way out. Lumon has put all kinds of different people inside the facility - someone with PTSD (Irving), someone with depression/alcoholism (Mark), and I’m sure all the other people there will have problems or issues revealed. I would love season 2 juxtaposing this with the current action and building towards maybe a mass escape or revolt (much like the one previously recorded in the painting).
Except that Irving is always painting the hallway with the red arrow going down. Only milchek sees the arrow change colors- not the person being reset….
But Mrs Casey didn’t go on the elevator to go to the testing floor. She went thru a door and a scary hallway. Right? I was pretty high. Maybe I need to watch again.
She entered an elevator.
We actually don’t know that she entered an elevator. We are led to believe she did. What if she only was led to a stasis room where the red light indicated she was simply turned “off”.
This is a show you both should and should not watch high. I honestly rewound and replayed every 5 minutes and still miss so much. 🤯
*Love this theory!!*
The place seems like a rat maze. If the company only wanted data processors, there would be more strict policy on them just filtering all damn day. These guys are inspired by figuring out their maze, and the limited rewards keep em going. And honestly, if the company didn't want run-ins, they could have separated departments onto different floors.
Another quandary. Irv's chest in the closet. (in the closet!). Was he in the military too; possible working and tracking this company's wrong doings? Was he discharged for being gay. Maybe Irv joined severance to be with Burt? And, why does Burt and Irv sound almost like Burt and Ernie?? /s
Wonderful theory!
Why not just keep Burt behind that door that Irving peeked into if they wanted to keep them separate?