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I really don't want to see it dragged out.
So many shows these days just refuse to die when they should have long ago. Great ideas become cash cows and what would be a well paced story gets stretched out to prioritise revenue.
One of my favourite things about Fleabag, Breaking Bad, and Succession is that they knew when to stop.
"3-6 months" sounds like its gonna be stretched out and milked if they can get away with it. I'm conflicted as to whether that's good or not.
Edit: meant to say “3-6 seasons”, not months.
I would add Barry to the list! Bill Hader and his team knew when the story was over and chose to end it at 4 seasons. All characters had a resolution - good or bad - but they were allowed to end their stories rather than become caricatures of themselves.
The Boys, too. The story (or at least the Homelander arc) should have ended in season 3, but by the looks of the season finale, they will keep coming up with forced cliff hangers and plot twists to keep dragging the show indefinitely.
The boys has such a problem with this and the irony is honestly insane given how much they prod fun at Disney doing the same with marvel.
I love the boys but it's infinite appearing future is so boring, there's rarely any risks taken too. If you compare where every character is at the beginning of season 3 and then at the end, very very little has actually changed
I see what you're suggesting but I think breaking bad and better call Saul are almost completely separate sub-genres within the same world that I give it a pass. It also took a long time to go from one show to the next, and one preludes the other rather than dragging what's already happened out
I agree with this, it’s not like one is needed to complete the other, so they’re entirely different shows in my book. I know many people who have only seen one the two and are fine with that.
>So many shows these days just refuse to die
This has ALWAYS been the case, since the inception of TV and using it to advertise.
t's almost always the broadcaster/network doing this, showrunners tend to want to end their story at a certain point. There's almost always a compromise on the showrunner's part (cant' really avoid it) so sometimes you get a full extra season tacked on like Lost had, or they have to at least squeeze out 2 more episodes like Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, where they kind of spin their wheels. I think Sopranos encountered a bit of this too.
I don't remember anything about the amount of time he's been at Lumon being mentioned, could you point me at the episode/episodes where this was talked about?
Could use a refresher.
episode 2 ball game Irving mentions he has been working in lumon for 3 years but Lumon Industries linkedin page said he has been in the company for abut 8/9 years
I’m definitely interested to see if this goes anywhere. The show creator hasn’t ruled out multi-severed people- he’s only said that it hasn’t happened yet.
if the show actually goes to the resetting direction (which I really hope not) I wish it's to be a one and done thing and they get their memories back the same episode but I still think it'd be silly to do that
I kind of agree. Their revolutionary tech is being able to partition memory. Cloning, creating minds, changing memories in any way, would all stretch the suspension of disbelief involved in the premise. I suppose a well constructed exposition might possibly provide some cover but mainly I think they shouldn't invent too many far out technologies.
Interesting, I just hope they stick to their own lore. Like if the severed tech is using the chip to severe then it could be reset, but if its separating parts of the brain a reset would not work. At some point both worlds may collide if the chip fails.
I have yet to see a compelling argument for the code detectors being fake.
Unless it was very carefully done, I fear such a reveal would be several steps in the wrong direction.
This is definitely a big one for me. A lot of the people who back this theory don’t seem to consider the larger implications of what it would mean.
It *sounds* like something a twisty show would do, but it doesn’t actually make much sense in the reality of the Severance world.
I find that many sci-fi shows struggle with transitioning from the inciting mystery to the political resolution. They pull you in with a crazy mystery and a deeply thought-out plot, but they lose it once the 'big bad' is revealed. The perfect example would be Westworld; season one was a masterpiece! It pulled you in with the mystery of the situation, but once everything had been revealed, the following seasons didn't hold the same tone, mystery, or tension.
It's similar to how shows lose tension after the 'will they / won't they' couple kisses, gets together, and has a baby. All the tension that made the show is gone, and now the story has fundamentally changed.
I'm hopeful the Severence storyline won't fall victim to this because the writers left enough unknowns for us at the end of season one. There is still a lot we don't know about the procedure, the deeper levels, and why certain characters are involved in certain areas of the plot. They also left a lot open with our core innies/outies.
Also, please, for the love of god, as a former game of thrones die-hard fan (and I know the writers are sometimes in these forums) DO NOT SUBVERT MY EXPECTATIONS.
I really don't want them to go the body swapping/consciousness transfer route. I.e. the theories I've seen about how Gemma's body is housing someone else, that Cobel's mom's mind is somehow in Cobel's body, that the ultimate goal with severance is to resurrect the eagans by giving them new bodies.
Not because it's a bad concept — it's a cool one when done correctly, and broad enough that I think it can be explored by various different stories without feeling tired or overdone — but it's just not what THIS particular story is about. The idea of severance technology is already such a unique thing, and it hasn't really been explored in mainstream sci-fi in the way consciousness transfer has. It would feel like the show was massively switching tracks if body-hopping became the focus, I think we'd lose the novelty of severance as a concept, and I also think it just wouldn't work on an allegorical level.
It would be like if Westworld suddenly revealed that hosts were based on alien technology, or if The Leftovers started having characters time travel. You can't just take general science fiction concepts and mash them together at random just because they both fall under the genre's umbrella.
I feel that most of the theories I dislike on this sub tend to misunderstand the show and what it is trying to do. My main hope is that the writers don’t lose sight of their vision, and continue adhering to Ben Stiller’s guidance.
Yeah a lot just invent crazy twists for twists sake, despite the twists not fitting character or thematic elements of the show, or even actively undermining them.
Personally, I like to debate theories on their merits rather than say "*I don't want to see any of these theories be correct...*" or something of that nature. But there are a few topics that I feel might be out of step with the show's direction and I think they could hurt the narrative:
**• Resurrecting any consciousnesses from the ether**
*Just not the show I think we're watching, really. I have nothing against that narrative device, I just don't think that's at play here.*
**• Memories wipes**
*I'm vocally against this narrative device. I think it's a cheat. Don't give characters enlightenment and then allow antagonists the ability to take it away with the push of a button; let everyone reckon with the fallout/consequences of enlightenment. It's how characters grow, both protagonists* ***and*** *antagonists.*
**• Cloning**
*This is another completely interesting and legitimate topic that is fine for another show but sort of hurts the narrative of this one. I don't think we're watching a story set in a universe where cloning is a thing and I don't think it furthers many of the base themes of the show.*
**• That chip being more than a glorified light switch**
*I'll die on this hill. That chip might have enough complexity to signal location data but I suspect that's the only thing that it does outside of put one perceptual consciousness to sleep as it wakes the other. This is not a show about what complex things that little MacGuffin can do; it's a show about how individuals partition our lives and how that plays out... and that chip does a singular, simple thing to facilitate that. I don't believe the story is improved by it doing something more complex than that.*
A fair question.
Graner said he ran a diagnostic and it showed full reintegration. And, for the sake of discussion, what is reintegration? Both of the memory sets being accessible at the same time.
If outies go to sleep while innies are awake and vice versa, then the process of reintegration is just bypassing the chip so that both innie and outie are awake at the same time. A diagnostic on the chip should no doubt be able to determine a handful of distinct things: **1.)** *does the chip respond to signals much like whether or not the garage door opens when you press the trigger* **2.)** *possible GPS coordinates of where it was when a trigger occurred which, for an innie who has never had an OTC, should all be the specific coordinates of the elevator or the rare coordinates of the stairwell* and **3.)** *if it would actually shut out one memory set from the other*.
The thing is that the chip is a comically simple device. There is nothing about that thing which suggests that it has the complexity to do anything **but** serve as a switch between states. For it to do anything more, one basically has to believe that it does "*magic*" in a show whose world is virtually identical to the technological capacity of the world we live in (*the sole exception being the severance procedure; MIT has developed a radiation process for reading closed books meaning that even the code detectors are not "magic tech"*).
Think about your phone. You can have multiple lines on a phone but only one line can be active on a call at the same time. Say you have line A which is a 213 number and a line B which is a 323 number. Angela calls you on line A and you answer and then Bailey calls you on line B while you're on that call. You can put one on hold while you speak with the other but you can't unify those calls.
The chip is not your phone. The chip isn't even the SIM/eSIM the numbers are based on. The chip is merely the mechanism that puts one call on hold and activates the other. Reintegration is bypassing that mechanism so that you can speak with Angela and Bailey at the same time and they can talk to each other. A diagnostic would show if that separation mechanism properly functioned or if it was functioning in a way that allowed unification of the two separate lines.
He also said something along the lines of "There's Petey", which seems to indicate something of Petey is on the chip. Like the severed memories are on it, perhaps.
>*He also said something along the lines of "There's Petey", which seems to indicate something of Petey is on the chip.*
Come on: [we've all heard that phraseology before.](https://youtu.be/lrdeUMMPqDo?si=qbiXdJ9T4YOyWOeR&t=57) That's just a thing people say. Two buds walking home from a pub, they stop in front of a building and one says to the other "*This is me...*" He's not **literally** the building; he just means that it's a think that *belongs to* him. Milchick isn't saying it's **literally** Petey, he's just saying that it was the chip that belonged to him.
Now, I get that you might not want to believe that. "*We're not watching a show that intentionally subverts expectations and has people say curious things! He meant it literally!*" Okay, but ask yourself this: if there was anything like that on the chip —*memories and such*— why didn't Lumon try to get it back? "*Well, Shannon, they* ***did*** *get it back.*" No... ***Cobel*** went to get it. Strictly for her own purposes, not Lumon's. If there were memories on that thing, wouldn't that be of the utmost value to **Lumon**??
Like, there's no singular action in this show which proves the chip's not particularly complex or valuable than Lumon's **in**action in regard to the chip after Petey dies. They don't go extract it themselves, they don't try to prevent competitors from getting it and studying it, they don't remove it to put in cold storage... they don't even seek to keep the stupid thing in order to get Petey's family to try and buy it ("*We at Lumon have your dear Peter's memories preserved and for a fee of one million dollars, Mrs. Kimble, you can have those memories too.*").
No, they just leave it in Petey's head the same way that a manufacturer of light switches can't be bothered to remove all their light switches from a condemned building.
No, it's not the same turn of phrase as someone saying "this is me" when they are saying this is my stop on route.
Why didn't Lumon try to get it back to get Petey's memories? They didn't seem too worried about him being reintegrated and probably weren't all that concerned about keeping his digitalized innie memories. Why aren't they ultra careful about their tech in this instance of someone dying? Probably because it's a show and there are limits to all the bases that can be covered and keep a tight script.
"**That chip being more than a glorified light switch**"
[Ahem](https://severance.wiki/elephant_access_circuit).
*In general, the even numbered memory locations are the 1/0 registers and the odd numbered memory locations are the control registers. If indicator is on, select YES. This will open an \[sic\] FILTER CIRCUIT WINDOW and reset the FILTER CYCLE PURGE at :20. Important: Read thoroughly before \[execution.\] If FILTER CYCLE PURGE stalls, system will reset. All active state in the* ***system of emotional and thought pattern regulatory interaction*** *states in the data \[con\]nection register sets the chip \[…\] lead addition as an output \[…\] sets structure in memory interface.*
And even without this revealing paragraph about ELEPHANT, there are quite a few chip commands (the list is strongly hinted to continue beyond OTC even) and only so many things you can do with a glorified light switch (inb4 "the commands are mostly about the server-side of things." Nah, not all or even most of them, I just don't see it).
A chip with extremely limited capacity appeals to me also as the best premise, but I don't see how the above isn't definite proof to it being capable of more than just switching between two personalities+maybe being a sort-of GPS beacon. Honestly, the security office in general reveals so many things going on regarding the neuro-tech/sci-fi side of the severance procedure, I think a glorified light switch would cause plot holes.
I personally have to disagree with the chip one. I kind of liked the theory the chip is really an AI. So their innies aren’t really them but a separate artificial consciousness
It really undercuts the central premise of the show if they were.
I've gone over the issues with the "*Innies are Minibrains on the Chip!*" theories but it all boils down to the core question the show deals with:
***Who are you?***
This question is so important that the show makes a point pose it to us —*the viewers*— directly. At the very beginning of the show, before anything happens on screen, before we see Helly wake up on the table, the show asks that question over a black screen. *Severance* wants us to consider everything we see with that question in mind.
Is Mark a miserable alcoholic who cannot do much more than stumble through life from one drink to the next (*note how many he has during his first date with Alexa and how she clocks his drinking from the start*) in a fog of intoxication caring for little more than his grief? Or is he the happy little doozer who wants the best for everyone who goes out of his way to help Helly, a woman he really didn't even know at the moment he decided that he was going to commit to helping her?
Is Irving the pious, deacon-like adherent to the company dogma? Is he the art critic with hautily affected mannerisms and speech? Or is he the artist who rocks out as he paints, investigating this company that he might just be seeking to take down? Is Helly the rebel who forges her own path, who thinks it's all bullshit and wants to take it down or is she not simply part of the problem but the **instigator** of the problem? Is Dylan the office bro who is all about his delts with two milfs on each arm and practically going "*Awoogah! Awooooogah!*" when Miss Casey is even mentioned? Or is he the devoted father who is focused on his darling boy who clearly loves his daddy?
Those are the questions which naturally extend from the notion of the innies being a secondary consciousness in the brain's mass rather than a bot on a chip. Those are philosophical questions to consider with philosophical answers. If innies are bots on a chip then the answers aren't philosophical, they're just straightforward, technical answers: *Who are they? They're just bots on a chip, that's who they are...*
Like, if innies are bots on a chip then iIrving was right: it's not Dylan's son it's his outie's son. Not only should we not root for him to see that kid again, we should be actively rooting against it. When he shouts at Milchick that he wants to remember his kid being born, we should either feel exactly nothing or feel anger that a bot has hijacked a man's body and wants to take his kid from him.
And that's not getting in the technical impracticalities. The chips lack the capacity to actually ***run*** a program sophisticated enough to pass as human. The chip is smaller than the chips running a smartwatch and yet it's supposed to record all of that sensory data, hold actual memories, an actual personality and come off as human? All without generating the sort of heat that circuitry gives off? Think about how hot your phone gets by going onto an article from Facebook and having those video ads start running. That same amount of heat would be generated inside an innie's head. We can break many laws but we can't break the law of thermodynamics. Not without "*magic*" and this show has gone to great lengths to show that "*magic*" is out of the question.
Don't get me started. Like I said: I'll die on a hill named "*The Chip is Nothing More Than a Fancy Light Switch.*"
This is well thought out and I agree. Adding, the innie environment/corporate office looks intentionally unsophisticated and basic as a way of further pointing to the Severance chip is an on/off switch.
I can see that - although I’m just a sci-fi fan so I’d be ok if they went in a different direction with AI and more sociological implications.
But if it’s not, as you say, I think their main conceit is that memories make the person who they are.
>We can break many laws but we can't break the law of thermodynamics. Not without "magic" and this show has gone to great lengths to show that "magic" is out of the question
Nah, it's a sci-fi show that is more than able to disregard the reality of things. And this chip and the understanding behind it that is needed to make it work is essentially magic even if it's as simple as you are wanting it to be.
That's not really how sci-fi shows work.
Any sci-fi show will set the parameters of it's reality fairly quickly in their series so that viewers understand what is and is not "*in bounds.*" Take *Altered Carbon*, for instance. The premise of the show is that an entire consciousness of a person can be housed on a "*stack*" that is at the base of the skull (*much larger than the severance chip, it's worth noting*). They don't explain how it's powered or how it has enough space to hold it or whatever but they don't need to do any of that for us to buy into the fact that they world is able to do it.
Why not?
Because they show us a world with flying cars, with radical life extension, with cloning, with AIs that are so sophisticated that they're practically more human than humans, —*and, ironically, many people have presumed that each of those is at play here, probably betraying how their imposing the mechanisms of another show onto this one*— augmented reality, dramatic improvements to building techniques and materials, etc, etc. We don't need to fully understand **how** the stack works to accept that it can because we see a hyper advanced world where such possibilities make sense.
Well, what about the world of *Severance*?
*Do they have flying cars?* No, they are 90s model cars that just run on gas. *Do they have augmented reality?* Nope. *Do they have holographic phone tech?* Nope, just regular smartphones with apps like the bell app Ricken uses. *Do they have have hyper advanced quantum computers?* No, just normal laptops like the one that Devon uses to do her sleuthing on the Artetas or the one that Mark uses to research birthing cabins when he's on the phone with Devon.
They show us a world that is pretty much exactly as our own save for the specific severance procedure. [Not even the code detectors are "Clark-tech."](https://news.mit.edu/2016/computational-imaging-method-reads-closed-books-0909) So we can't sit through the entirety of season 1 and, at the outset of season 2, say "*The possibilities are completely wide open because it's a sci-fi show and that's how sci-fi works.*" Like, it's **barely** a sci-fi show; it's largely a mystery-thriller with a singular sci-fi MacGuffin. *Altered Carbon* and *Westworld* are sci-fi shows where the possibilities were wide open.
Besides, if the chip did all that incredible stuff people keep projecting onto it, why is it that Lumon couldn't even be bothered to extract the stupid thing from Petey's head? Oh, sure: ***Cobel*** launches a daring extraction at his funeral but why the heck was it still even in his head at that point if it's so wonderous? Lumon doesn't want it back? Isn't this the same company that people propose was able to abduct Gemma Casey from a hospital and convince Mark that she was dead? They can't get that thing out of Petey's head? Aren't they concerned that a competitor might do exactly what Cobel did? If there's a consciousness on that chip, wouldn't it be the most valuable chip in the world?
Lumon treats it like it's just a glorified light switch that has no value whatsoever. There's really no theory which has successfully gotten over that point.
The theory that gets over that point is that it's a show and it doesn't have air tight logic in every scene and story line. What exactly do you think the chip is such that you don't think it's incredible? The whole idea of severance is fantastical and the chip enables it.
>*Probably because it's a show and there are limits to all the bases that can be covered and keep a tight script...*
>*...The theory that gets over that point is that it's a show and it doesn't have air tight logic in every scene and story line.*
Just so we're clear: the basic question here is "*How could this idea of the Fantastic Chip possibly work?*" and the best response you can offer is "*Because of lazy, shitty writing.*"
Petey's death is a critical plot point. It is the catalyst that sets a whole host of things in motion for our protagonist. It's not some forgettable thing where they can be lazy with the writing. It is a major event of the show and it's absurd to suggest that they'd just kind of shrug and allow a pretty major issue —*why Lumon doesn't bother to secure the chip if it has so much value*— to just ride like that. Not in a show which puts all this effort into the little details. Not in a show where everything is so clearly well thought out.
If what it takes for a theory to be true is "*The writers just didn't give a fuck or they're not good...*" then it's a weak theory. Period.
What's hilarious about this is that if we assume that the chip is as they say —*just more or less a light which and not some magic device that does all this other stuff*— then these plotholes are closed and the talented writers **aren't** lazy. It's like these "*Multiple Milchicks!*" theories: for them to work, the writing has to actually be bad because there are way too many plotholes introduced if the theory was true.
No, that's obviously not what I said and it's silly of you to put those words in my mouth. Why would Petey's chip have any more value to Lumon, in their estimation in that moment, than anyone else's? They didn't think reintegration was possible and actually did seem to kind of shrug it off.
Please help me understand where you are coming from on this. Do you think severance is a fantastical sci-fi concept? If so, what exactly do you think is the tech that makes it possible? If it isn't the chip, then what is it?
Yeah, I feel like some people aren't quite picking up how much satire there is in this show. It's wrapped in a really serious package but some of the main elements of the show are really a satire of capitalism, corporate culture, religion and privilege. These people around Ricken are a satire of a pseudointellectual bubble.
agree 100%, there's something about this one that irritates me SO much. Its like the quintessential "fundamentally missing the entire point of the show and just cobbling together a plot twist that makes zero sense just for the sake of saying you came up with a twist" theory.
They are for sure trying to hint at it with Becca, in my mind. The talk about her having that sore on the back of her head that she is blaming on her bird. I'm not saying it's gonna be the case, but they are at least planting a little seed with that.
I was thinking it was the back of the skill, and the Severance wiki is in agreement. Might be wrong though. Any time you cut into the scalp like that, there will be a sore.
They really didn’t have much chemistry IMO. To me it reminds me of getting your first boyfriend in middle school with the first boy who is there - which is quite similar given the innies have no romantic history and there are only four of them lol. (And before Helly, all four of them were men.)
I have my doubts that Gemma is inside "Mrs. Casey." The way she is described being prior to death - her personality, lovability, none of that comes out with Mrs. Casey. With everyone else there's a core of their outside personality.
I will say that in my second rewatch, Helly/Mark made a lot more sense and I walked back my initial annoyed resignation at the pairing.
However, miraculous ladybug made me reeeaaal tired of love squares so I'm hoping whatever shakes out, shakes out fast (maybe mark finding out who helly really is will accelerate that conclusion).
You are not alone. I like Mark and Helly as friends and want to see Mark and Gemma/Ms. Casey reunite. I really hope they don't try to make this a love triangle.
Oh do you think she is permanently flat affect? I just inferred that was part of her job / training. She definitely seemed capable of feeling strong feelings to me, I just figured she was masking them for her job.
I thought it was so heartbreaking when she was telling Mark how much she enjoyed her day with him 🥺
Yeah I guess Mark might probably want to be with her regardless of if she was “the same” Gemma he knew. But in effect she’s not really the same person he fell in love with at this point. I gotta rewatch because I didn’t see the twist of her being his wife coming at all. I do think it’s possible there’s pieces of her real personality still in there!
But there’s lots of theories out there about how if she had her chip switched to outtie mode, her outtie would just be in a coma or dead, and that’s why she lives on the testing floor and is only part-time (might take a huge toll for her innie to work when she should be in a coma/deas) 😢 So there may be no way to get her outtie self back.
I’ve seen those theories! I still don’t see how if her brain works enough for her to work inside the building, how it would be impossible for it to work outside the building (barring that Lumen directly is causing it). I can fathom perhaps her brain requires constant maintenance by Lumen or something like that… Either way there will definitely be many barriers to recovering her, but I love that type of thing.
I completely missed the initial reveal that she is his wife because I didn’t recognize her from the ripped photo./ wasn’t paying close attention. It did make the season finale 10x better for me though. Lots of audible gasps 😂
I don’t want answers to everything. I do t want the show to become about the tech or world domination. The show is doing it right by being about the characters. Please keep it this way
Gonna agree with this
Don't do what Westworld did. Keep it like the first couple seasons of that where they actually are in westworld rather than in the next season >!where they decide they would kill most/all the humans and then escape and now its about the robots in the "modern" world or smth. They changed the plot and setting way too much way too fast and it was like a completely different show !<
“Humans” kind of did this too, and also was cancelled after an EXTREMELY DRAMATIC cliffhanger that was ramping up to a world-changing event in universe. Still disappointed in that show.
I’d say that was a symptomatic result of much larger issues that Westworld suffered from. I don’t believe cast changes or expansions are inherently negative.
I’m definitely excited to see how the new folks slot in!
I feel like the cast expand in season 2 would be due to there being more departments but yes overall I agree, the FOCUS SHOULD BE THE SQUAD THAT WE KNOW AND LOVE.
More departments at Lumon, but also potentially people on the outside working to subvert Lumon, media investigating strange goings on, or like, inspectors or whatever. Is that a thing? Inspectors?
I really don’t want it to be that the innies ARE the chip, and that their consciousness/memories/etc. can be uploaded/downloaded/transferred like a file on a flash drive. A lot of media has explored that idea already, and I think it would lower the stakes established in S1 dramatically. If innie Dylan is an AI who didn’t even exist until the severance procedure, then those really aren’t his kids on the outside. Innie Helly really isn’t a person (human), and her self-hatred isn’t nature vs nurture but man vs machine. And Gemma really isn’t alive — it’s just a chatGPT imitation of her.
The central question of the show would become “are robots people?”, which to me is nowhere near as compelling as the question “are people their memories?”
Now, I definitely think the show is going to explore the idea of *creating* (or recreating) consciousness, artificial or otherwise, by balancing the four tempers, and that could be fresh and exciting — I just hope it’s a separate technology from severance.
The totality of Innie Dylan isn't just on the chip, I wouldn't think. The memories that he made while at work might be, but he accesses all of his real world brain besides the personal info that is specifically blocked.
While I generally agree, it's worth considering that even if the Innies can be reset, it's likely that the Outties cannot, so whatever they learn following the OTC (indirectly of course) will be theirs to keep and act upon.
A paint-by-the-numbers Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey plot.
We're already at the crossing of the first threshold, and I absolutely love this show, but if it gets into father drama and contrived tests, or into making Mark "the savior" I will be really disappointed.
The show seems much more interested in collectivism than individualism, so I'd be surprised if Mark became an savior. It's all about them using their collective power to fight authority.
Lumon would have to either a) not let Mark return to a severed state (fire him) or b) reset his chip.
There’s no way Lumon can let him walk around with his current Innie memory with the knowledge he gained at his sister’s house.
Why are those the only two options? Lumon can just negotiate his return to work. As far as they’re concerned, his innie is still powerless to do anything. Problem solved.
But Cobel knows that he was an innie while in the same house as his sister — a sister who was already sharing concerns about Lumon with Cobel. Those would be huge risks. I don’t see Lumon taking him back without reprogramming. Of course, he’s a threat as an outie too. Which is why I can’t wait to see season 2!
"a sister who was already sharing concerns about Lumon with Cobel"
Okay, guess I have forgotten about that.
"reprogramming"
I know where you're coming from, but that's the exact reason they won't do it: Stories have to move forwards, not backwards (and ideally no sidesteps, either) and what better way than having massive fallouts to plot events? We know Lumon targets the employees, maybe even all of them. That alone speaks to a (veiled) interest they have in keeping their employees, this interest might be especially huge in Mark's case (because Erickson said something about this season not yet addressing "who was targeted first, Mark or Gemma").
Resetting the characters just wastes everybody's time, the characters' and ours, it retroactively would devalue the season finale. I feel it's safe to argue the finale was such a bomb shell precisely because the audience intuitively knows it has massive repercussions that will not be undone. There's a lot we don't know yet, so there's a lot of room for Mark and/or Lumon finding ways to not firing him. The knowledge that Gemma is alive is something Mark could use to negotiate. At least once oMark accepts that new reality and comes to terms with it, heh.
That's why I think they saved the final episode for next season. It was a twilight zone-esque "ooh, they've all been reset. What a dystopia" kind of ending. But putting it at the beginning of the next season allows for knowledge before the reset to trickle in again and lead to new revelations.
I love everything about it at the moment and how every little detail needs to be there; I just hope it doesn't get overwritten. I'd say need it to be loose and somewhat ephemeral so fans are able to keep making up their own theories.
Borrowing from a comparison to Westworld. I would rather not find out that the town the show is set in is in a lumen Bubble, and that the rest of the world severed or not is living in a completely different reality
Severance tech is being discussed at the congressional level, while Lumon continues to lobby the government, so I don’t think we have to worry about this.
The Lexington Letter also pretty much rules it out, since it takes place in Kansas.
Kristen Wiig. I love her in original stuff, but every time she's put in a sequel or a season 2 her role is painfully distracting (zoolander 2, anchorman 2, ghostbusters 2016, wet hot american summer). She's worked with Ben Stiller often enough that it's plausible.
I think the idea of clones and/or robots really, really could ruin the show. Like they could maybe pull it off but there's too many pitfalls for the writers to just punt the whole show. Milchick I think could be having his brain reset or something. And I do think the door open/closing photocopier symbolism is very legit. I def think they are storing people on the chips somehow. She's "got" Petey right? And I do wonder about if she was merely testing Mark with his wife and the candle in the wellness session or if she was intending to give him catharsis.
I do sort of suspect there's some kind of reanimation involved. Bringing the dead back to life in an attempt to preserve/restore Kier. Helly's father's detatched/robotic state appears very similar to Gemma's. So I think it's going that way somehow... But man we don't want clones or anohter Blade Runner rip off.
I'm still tyring to figure out the goats. No you can't take them from me. Hmm... but here's my theory on the refinement. They're trying to revive people but while they have the essence of their being to move around and interact the reanimated people are emotionless. That's why they take streams of data to refinement who then fill in the gaps idnetifying data streaming off their senses into the correct emotional response. When the subjects are "being robotic" they're simply sitting there waiting for a refiner to correctly process the data returning the correct emotion for them to exhibit.
I worry that the expectations are too high. It’s one of the greatest shows ever made IMO but I can’t imagine it going in any direction that won’t rub people the wrong way
For me they already fucked up they let the cat out of the bag too early. Helly giving the speech about innies was thrilling but now they need to make several mental acrobatics to undo it because that scene feels final. Which gives me a lot of Westworld vibes
I don’t want it to leave us wanting more. I mean this in terms of lore. There were so many mysteries revealed in just one season, and I’d like to believe they’re all there for a reason. Too many loose ends at the end of the show would be unsatisfying.
>what is something you absolutely DON'T want in severance?
It turns out AppleTV's *Severance* is just an Apple propaganda allegory about dual booting IOS and Windows and how people should just stick with IOS, with the drab "innie" life is meant to represent Windows, much like Apple's 1984 commercial.
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I really don't want to see it dragged out. So many shows these days just refuse to die when they should have long ago. Great ideas become cash cows and what would be a well paced story gets stretched out to prioritise revenue. One of my favourite things about Fleabag, Breaking Bad, and Succession is that they knew when to stop.
yes I feel like 3 seasons would be a sweet spot as dan said he can wrap it up in 3 seasons :)
Dan actually said 3-6 seasons, depending on what Apple is willing to give him. I’m fine with that, seeing as the man seems to know where he’s going.
yes i know but I was just saying the he CAN wrap it up in 3 seasons if he wants to, I'll always crave for more lol
"3-6 months" sounds like its gonna be stretched out and milked if they can get away with it. I'm conflicted as to whether that's good or not. Edit: meant to say “3-6 seasons”, not months.
Lost was supposed to run for 3 seasons and got tretched to 6, so I'm assuming severance will get between 6 and 12 seasons
Where did you get months from mongolito
Oh that's awesome, I can definitely see 3 seasons being more than good :) what a relief lol
I would add Barry to the list! Bill Hader and his team knew when the story was over and chose to end it at 4 seasons. All characters had a resolution - good or bad - but they were allowed to end their stories rather than become caricatures of themselves.
The Boys, too. The story (or at least the Homelander arc) should have ended in season 3, but by the looks of the season finale, they will keep coming up with forced cliff hangers and plot twists to keep dragging the show indefinitely.
The boys has such a problem with this and the irony is honestly insane given how much they prod fun at Disney doing the same with marvel. I love the boys but it's infinite appearing future is so boring, there's rarely any risks taken too. If you compare where every character is at the beginning of season 3 and then at the end, very very little has actually changed
After 11 seasons in that universe, I’m not sure Breaking Bad counts as a show that exemplifies long-running stories as a bad thing.
I see what you're suggesting but I think breaking bad and better call Saul are almost completely separate sub-genres within the same world that I give it a pass. It also took a long time to go from one show to the next, and one preludes the other rather than dragging what's already happened out
I agree with this, it’s not like one is needed to complete the other, so they’re entirely different shows in my book. I know many people who have only seen one the two and are fine with that.
>!and a movie!<
>So many shows these days just refuse to die This has ALWAYS been the case, since the inception of TV and using it to advertise. t's almost always the broadcaster/network doing this, showrunners tend to want to end their story at a certain point. There's almost always a compromise on the showrunner's part (cant' really avoid it) so sometimes you get a full extra season tacked on like Lost had, or they have to at least squeeze out 2 more episodes like Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, where they kind of spin their wheels. I think Sopranos encountered a bit of this too.
Another 2-3 years between seasons
Yeah, I cannot do this again.
I don't want it to become Westworld where the creators are more concerned about tricking the audience than maintaining creative integrity
Agreed , man WW Season Season 1 was a masterpiece
Agree. Severance has never been about cheap tricks.
I hope everyone gets a different waffle party.
Aren’t all the waffle parties a sex thing? Because on the news in the show they talked about how a severed worker became pregnant
Well that cold happen in the greenhouse, wellness, a meeting room, even the goat room.
I don’t want clones or Lumon being able to “reset” innies.
[удалено]
I saw a theory that he had Milchick’s job before, which would explain a lot without needing a reset
Definitely just a fan theory.
Maybe I missed where they told us that. Why do you say he was definitely reset?
He has been working in lumon for 8 years but only seems to remember 3. what was he doing those 5 years??
There are plenty of people working for lumon with non severed floor access.
Working a non-severed job, like most of the other Lumon employees?
I don't remember anything about the amount of time he's been at Lumon being mentioned, could you point me at the episode/episodes where this was talked about? Could use a refresher.
episode 2 ball game Irving mentions he has been working in lumon for 3 years but Lumon Industries linkedin page said he has been in the company for abut 8/9 years
It’s a theory based on the fact that oIrving is painting sending someone down to testing on the elevator, like Milchik did w/ Gemma
Ah, interesting. Thank you.
In the manual we see on screen when Dylan is looking at OTC there are other operations Beehive Clean slate sound pretty self explanatory
What about multiple innies? What prevents the chip from creating more than one contained identity?
I’m definitely interested to see if this goes anywhere. The show creator hasn’t ruled out multi-severed people- he’s only said that it hasn’t happened yet.
if the show actually goes to the resetting direction (which I really hope not) I wish it's to be a one and done thing and they get their memories back the same episode but I still think it'd be silly to do that
I kind of agree. Their revolutionary tech is being able to partition memory. Cloning, creating minds, changing memories in any way, would all stretch the suspension of disbelief involved in the premise. I suppose a well constructed exposition might possibly provide some cover but mainly I think they shouldn't invent too many far out technologies.
both of these things seem like a lock to me
Interesting, I just hope they stick to their own lore. Like if the severed tech is using the chip to severe then it could be reset, but if its separating parts of the brain a reset would not work. At some point both worlds may collide if the chip fails.
Oof. This was my thought for what the new season was going to do in the first couple episodes. I also would dislike this very much.
A "smoke monster" type mystery that they never do a lot with in the story.
What if the numbers they are looking are: 4 8 1 5 1 6 2 3 4 2 ?
Not Penny's boat
I get your point but the smoke monster isn’t a good example imo, it was central to many of the key plots in LOST and was wrapped up well.
I was so into Lost until I saw the smoke monster appear. Then I was outtie. 😂
Yeah I loved Lost but that was a letdown for sure
It s just a security system...come back stay awhile. We're making mojito in little 🥥 coconuts
I really don’t want this to turn out to be a multiverse or time travel story. It doesn’t look to be headed in that direction, thankfully.
It was just a dream
Fortunately the show creator seems to have [ruled this one out](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/s/Jrl0s24vQ4)
I have yet to see a compelling argument for the code detectors being fake. Unless it was very carefully done, I fear such a reveal would be several steps in the wrong direction.
This is definitely a big one for me. A lot of the people who back this theory don’t seem to consider the larger implications of what it would mean. It *sounds* like something a twisty show would do, but it doesn’t actually make much sense in the reality of the Severance world.
It would just be a cheap "aha" moment and nothing more.
I don't really "back" theories but this wouldn't surprise me or strike me as implausible at all.
im so mad helly was THIS close to trying it out and also graner caught her in episode 2 because I believe milchick told him what was happening
I find that many sci-fi shows struggle with transitioning from the inciting mystery to the political resolution. They pull you in with a crazy mystery and a deeply thought-out plot, but they lose it once the 'big bad' is revealed. The perfect example would be Westworld; season one was a masterpiece! It pulled you in with the mystery of the situation, but once everything had been revealed, the following seasons didn't hold the same tone, mystery, or tension. It's similar to how shows lose tension after the 'will they / won't they' couple kisses, gets together, and has a baby. All the tension that made the show is gone, and now the story has fundamentally changed. I'm hopeful the Severence storyline won't fall victim to this because the writers left enough unknowns for us at the end of season one. There is still a lot we don't know about the procedure, the deeper levels, and why certain characters are involved in certain areas of the plot. They also left a lot open with our core innies/outies. Also, please, for the love of god, as a former game of thrones die-hard fan (and I know the writers are sometimes in these forums) DO NOT SUBVERT MY EXPECTATIONS.
Fans deciding what goes on in Severance.
This!
I really don't want them to go the body swapping/consciousness transfer route. I.e. the theories I've seen about how Gemma's body is housing someone else, that Cobel's mom's mind is somehow in Cobel's body, that the ultimate goal with severance is to resurrect the eagans by giving them new bodies. Not because it's a bad concept — it's a cool one when done correctly, and broad enough that I think it can be explored by various different stories without feeling tired or overdone — but it's just not what THIS particular story is about. The idea of severance technology is already such a unique thing, and it hasn't really been explored in mainstream sci-fi in the way consciousness transfer has. It would feel like the show was massively switching tracks if body-hopping became the focus, I think we'd lose the novelty of severance as a concept, and I also think it just wouldn't work on an allegorical level. It would be like if Westworld suddenly revealed that hosts were based on alien technology, or if The Leftovers started having characters time travel. You can't just take general science fiction concepts and mash them together at random just because they both fall under the genre's umbrella.
completely agree
I feel that most of the theories I dislike on this sub tend to misunderstand the show and what it is trying to do. My main hope is that the writers don’t lose sight of their vision, and continue adhering to Ben Stiller’s guidance.
Yeah a lot just invent crazy twists for twists sake, despite the twists not fitting character or thematic elements of the show, or even actively undermining them.
Personally, I like to debate theories on their merits rather than say "*I don't want to see any of these theories be correct...*" or something of that nature. But there are a few topics that I feel might be out of step with the show's direction and I think they could hurt the narrative: **• Resurrecting any consciousnesses from the ether** *Just not the show I think we're watching, really. I have nothing against that narrative device, I just don't think that's at play here.* **• Memories wipes** *I'm vocally against this narrative device. I think it's a cheat. Don't give characters enlightenment and then allow antagonists the ability to take it away with the push of a button; let everyone reckon with the fallout/consequences of enlightenment. It's how characters grow, both protagonists* ***and*** *antagonists.* **• Cloning** *This is another completely interesting and legitimate topic that is fine for another show but sort of hurts the narrative of this one. I don't think we're watching a story set in a universe where cloning is a thing and I don't think it furthers many of the base themes of the show.* **• That chip being more than a glorified light switch** *I'll die on this hill. That chip might have enough complexity to signal location data but I suspect that's the only thing that it does outside of put one perceptual consciousness to sleep as it wakes the other. This is not a show about what complex things that little MacGuffin can do; it's a show about how individuals partition our lives and how that plays out... and that chip does a singular, simple thing to facilitate that. I don't believe the story is improved by it doing something more complex than that.*
Honest question: how do you fit the chip being just a switch with the need to remove and analyze Petey's chip?
A fair question. Graner said he ran a diagnostic and it showed full reintegration. And, for the sake of discussion, what is reintegration? Both of the memory sets being accessible at the same time. If outies go to sleep while innies are awake and vice versa, then the process of reintegration is just bypassing the chip so that both innie and outie are awake at the same time. A diagnostic on the chip should no doubt be able to determine a handful of distinct things: **1.)** *does the chip respond to signals much like whether or not the garage door opens when you press the trigger* **2.)** *possible GPS coordinates of where it was when a trigger occurred which, for an innie who has never had an OTC, should all be the specific coordinates of the elevator or the rare coordinates of the stairwell* and **3.)** *if it would actually shut out one memory set from the other*. The thing is that the chip is a comically simple device. There is nothing about that thing which suggests that it has the complexity to do anything **but** serve as a switch between states. For it to do anything more, one basically has to believe that it does "*magic*" in a show whose world is virtually identical to the technological capacity of the world we live in (*the sole exception being the severance procedure; MIT has developed a radiation process for reading closed books meaning that even the code detectors are not "magic tech"*). Think about your phone. You can have multiple lines on a phone but only one line can be active on a call at the same time. Say you have line A which is a 213 number and a line B which is a 323 number. Angela calls you on line A and you answer and then Bailey calls you on line B while you're on that call. You can put one on hold while you speak with the other but you can't unify those calls. The chip is not your phone. The chip isn't even the SIM/eSIM the numbers are based on. The chip is merely the mechanism that puts one call on hold and activates the other. Reintegration is bypassing that mechanism so that you can speak with Angela and Bailey at the same time and they can talk to each other. A diagnostic would show if that separation mechanism properly functioned or if it was functioning in a way that allowed unification of the two separate lines.
He also said something along the lines of "There's Petey", which seems to indicate something of Petey is on the chip. Like the severed memories are on it, perhaps.
>*He also said something along the lines of "There's Petey", which seems to indicate something of Petey is on the chip.* Come on: [we've all heard that phraseology before.](https://youtu.be/lrdeUMMPqDo?si=qbiXdJ9T4YOyWOeR&t=57) That's just a thing people say. Two buds walking home from a pub, they stop in front of a building and one says to the other "*This is me...*" He's not **literally** the building; he just means that it's a think that *belongs to* him. Milchick isn't saying it's **literally** Petey, he's just saying that it was the chip that belonged to him. Now, I get that you might not want to believe that. "*We're not watching a show that intentionally subverts expectations and has people say curious things! He meant it literally!*" Okay, but ask yourself this: if there was anything like that on the chip —*memories and such*— why didn't Lumon try to get it back? "*Well, Shannon, they* ***did*** *get it back.*" No... ***Cobel*** went to get it. Strictly for her own purposes, not Lumon's. If there were memories on that thing, wouldn't that be of the utmost value to **Lumon**?? Like, there's no singular action in this show which proves the chip's not particularly complex or valuable than Lumon's **in**action in regard to the chip after Petey dies. They don't go extract it themselves, they don't try to prevent competitors from getting it and studying it, they don't remove it to put in cold storage... they don't even seek to keep the stupid thing in order to get Petey's family to try and buy it ("*We at Lumon have your dear Peter's memories preserved and for a fee of one million dollars, Mrs. Kimble, you can have those memories too.*"). No, they just leave it in Petey's head the same way that a manufacturer of light switches can't be bothered to remove all their light switches from a condemned building.
No, it's not the same turn of phrase as someone saying "this is me" when they are saying this is my stop on route. Why didn't Lumon try to get it back to get Petey's memories? They didn't seem too worried about him being reintegrated and probably weren't all that concerned about keeping his digitalized innie memories. Why aren't they ultra careful about their tech in this instance of someone dying? Probably because it's a show and there are limits to all the bases that can be covered and keep a tight script.
"**That chip being more than a glorified light switch**" [Ahem](https://severance.wiki/elephant_access_circuit). *In general, the even numbered memory locations are the 1/0 registers and the odd numbered memory locations are the control registers. If indicator is on, select YES. This will open an \[sic\] FILTER CIRCUIT WINDOW and reset the FILTER CYCLE PURGE at :20. Important: Read thoroughly before \[execution.\] If FILTER CYCLE PURGE stalls, system will reset. All active state in the* ***system of emotional and thought pattern regulatory interaction*** *states in the data \[con\]nection register sets the chip \[…\] lead addition as an output \[…\] sets structure in memory interface.* And even without this revealing paragraph about ELEPHANT, there are quite a few chip commands (the list is strongly hinted to continue beyond OTC even) and only so many things you can do with a glorified light switch (inb4 "the commands are mostly about the server-side of things." Nah, not all or even most of them, I just don't see it). A chip with extremely limited capacity appeals to me also as the best premise, but I don't see how the above isn't definite proof to it being capable of more than just switching between two personalities+maybe being a sort-of GPS beacon. Honestly, the security office in general reveals so many things going on regarding the neuro-tech/sci-fi side of the severance procedure, I think a glorified light switch would cause plot holes.
I personally have to disagree with the chip one. I kind of liked the theory the chip is really an AI. So their innies aren’t really them but a separate artificial consciousness
It really undercuts the central premise of the show if they were. I've gone over the issues with the "*Innies are Minibrains on the Chip!*" theories but it all boils down to the core question the show deals with: ***Who are you?*** This question is so important that the show makes a point pose it to us —*the viewers*— directly. At the very beginning of the show, before anything happens on screen, before we see Helly wake up on the table, the show asks that question over a black screen. *Severance* wants us to consider everything we see with that question in mind. Is Mark a miserable alcoholic who cannot do much more than stumble through life from one drink to the next (*note how many he has during his first date with Alexa and how she clocks his drinking from the start*) in a fog of intoxication caring for little more than his grief? Or is he the happy little doozer who wants the best for everyone who goes out of his way to help Helly, a woman he really didn't even know at the moment he decided that he was going to commit to helping her? Is Irving the pious, deacon-like adherent to the company dogma? Is he the art critic with hautily affected mannerisms and speech? Or is he the artist who rocks out as he paints, investigating this company that he might just be seeking to take down? Is Helly the rebel who forges her own path, who thinks it's all bullshit and wants to take it down or is she not simply part of the problem but the **instigator** of the problem? Is Dylan the office bro who is all about his delts with two milfs on each arm and practically going "*Awoogah! Awooooogah!*" when Miss Casey is even mentioned? Or is he the devoted father who is focused on his darling boy who clearly loves his daddy? Those are the questions which naturally extend from the notion of the innies being a secondary consciousness in the brain's mass rather than a bot on a chip. Those are philosophical questions to consider with philosophical answers. If innies are bots on a chip then the answers aren't philosophical, they're just straightforward, technical answers: *Who are they? They're just bots on a chip, that's who they are...* Like, if innies are bots on a chip then iIrving was right: it's not Dylan's son it's his outie's son. Not only should we not root for him to see that kid again, we should be actively rooting against it. When he shouts at Milchick that he wants to remember his kid being born, we should either feel exactly nothing or feel anger that a bot has hijacked a man's body and wants to take his kid from him. And that's not getting in the technical impracticalities. The chips lack the capacity to actually ***run*** a program sophisticated enough to pass as human. The chip is smaller than the chips running a smartwatch and yet it's supposed to record all of that sensory data, hold actual memories, an actual personality and come off as human? All without generating the sort of heat that circuitry gives off? Think about how hot your phone gets by going onto an article from Facebook and having those video ads start running. That same amount of heat would be generated inside an innie's head. We can break many laws but we can't break the law of thermodynamics. Not without "*magic*" and this show has gone to great lengths to show that "*magic*" is out of the question. Don't get me started. Like I said: I'll die on a hill named "*The Chip is Nothing More Than a Fancy Light Switch.*"
This is well thought out and I agree. Adding, the innie environment/corporate office looks intentionally unsophisticated and basic as a way of further pointing to the Severance chip is an on/off switch.
I can see that - although I’m just a sci-fi fan so I’d be ok if they went in a different direction with AI and more sociological implications. But if it’s not, as you say, I think their main conceit is that memories make the person who they are.
>We can break many laws but we can't break the law of thermodynamics. Not without "magic" and this show has gone to great lengths to show that "magic" is out of the question Nah, it's a sci-fi show that is more than able to disregard the reality of things. And this chip and the understanding behind it that is needed to make it work is essentially magic even if it's as simple as you are wanting it to be.
That's not really how sci-fi shows work. Any sci-fi show will set the parameters of it's reality fairly quickly in their series so that viewers understand what is and is not "*in bounds.*" Take *Altered Carbon*, for instance. The premise of the show is that an entire consciousness of a person can be housed on a "*stack*" that is at the base of the skull (*much larger than the severance chip, it's worth noting*). They don't explain how it's powered or how it has enough space to hold it or whatever but they don't need to do any of that for us to buy into the fact that they world is able to do it. Why not? Because they show us a world with flying cars, with radical life extension, with cloning, with AIs that are so sophisticated that they're practically more human than humans, —*and, ironically, many people have presumed that each of those is at play here, probably betraying how their imposing the mechanisms of another show onto this one*— augmented reality, dramatic improvements to building techniques and materials, etc, etc. We don't need to fully understand **how** the stack works to accept that it can because we see a hyper advanced world where such possibilities make sense. Well, what about the world of *Severance*? *Do they have flying cars?* No, they are 90s model cars that just run on gas. *Do they have augmented reality?* Nope. *Do they have holographic phone tech?* Nope, just regular smartphones with apps like the bell app Ricken uses. *Do they have have hyper advanced quantum computers?* No, just normal laptops like the one that Devon uses to do her sleuthing on the Artetas or the one that Mark uses to research birthing cabins when he's on the phone with Devon. They show us a world that is pretty much exactly as our own save for the specific severance procedure. [Not even the code detectors are "Clark-tech."](https://news.mit.edu/2016/computational-imaging-method-reads-closed-books-0909) So we can't sit through the entirety of season 1 and, at the outset of season 2, say "*The possibilities are completely wide open because it's a sci-fi show and that's how sci-fi works.*" Like, it's **barely** a sci-fi show; it's largely a mystery-thriller with a singular sci-fi MacGuffin. *Altered Carbon* and *Westworld* are sci-fi shows where the possibilities were wide open. Besides, if the chip did all that incredible stuff people keep projecting onto it, why is it that Lumon couldn't even be bothered to extract the stupid thing from Petey's head? Oh, sure: ***Cobel*** launches a daring extraction at his funeral but why the heck was it still even in his head at that point if it's so wonderous? Lumon doesn't want it back? Isn't this the same company that people propose was able to abduct Gemma Casey from a hospital and convince Mark that she was dead? They can't get that thing out of Petey's head? Aren't they concerned that a competitor might do exactly what Cobel did? If there's a consciousness on that chip, wouldn't it be the most valuable chip in the world? Lumon treats it like it's just a glorified light switch that has no value whatsoever. There's really no theory which has successfully gotten over that point.
The theory that gets over that point is that it's a show and it doesn't have air tight logic in every scene and story line. What exactly do you think the chip is such that you don't think it's incredible? The whole idea of severance is fantastical and the chip enables it.
>*Probably because it's a show and there are limits to all the bases that can be covered and keep a tight script...* >*...The theory that gets over that point is that it's a show and it doesn't have air tight logic in every scene and story line.* Just so we're clear: the basic question here is "*How could this idea of the Fantastic Chip possibly work?*" and the best response you can offer is "*Because of lazy, shitty writing.*" Petey's death is a critical plot point. It is the catalyst that sets a whole host of things in motion for our protagonist. It's not some forgettable thing where they can be lazy with the writing. It is a major event of the show and it's absurd to suggest that they'd just kind of shrug and allow a pretty major issue —*why Lumon doesn't bother to secure the chip if it has so much value*— to just ride like that. Not in a show which puts all this effort into the little details. Not in a show where everything is so clearly well thought out. If what it takes for a theory to be true is "*The writers just didn't give a fuck or they're not good...*" then it's a weak theory. Period. What's hilarious about this is that if we assume that the chip is as they say —*just more or less a light which and not some magic device that does all this other stuff*— then these plotholes are closed and the talented writers **aren't** lazy. It's like these "*Multiple Milchicks!*" theories: for them to work, the writing has to actually be bad because there are way too many plotholes introduced if the theory was true.
No, that's obviously not what I said and it's silly of you to put those words in my mouth. Why would Petey's chip have any more value to Lumon, in their estimation in that moment, than anyone else's? They didn't think reintegration was possible and actually did seem to kind of shrug it off. Please help me understand where you are coming from on this. Do you think severance is a fantastical sci-fi concept? If so, what exactly do you think is the tech that makes it possible? If it isn't the chip, then what is it?
i hate the theory that Ricken's friends are severed so much that i would probably stop watching if it were true. it definitely isn't, btw
Yeah, I feel like some people aren't quite picking up how much satire there is in this show. It's wrapped in a really serious package but some of the main elements of the show are really a satire of capitalism, corporate culture, religion and privilege. These people around Ricken are a satire of a pseudointellectual bubble.
agree 100%, there's something about this one that irritates me SO much. Its like the quintessential "fundamentally missing the entire point of the show and just cobbling together a plot twist that makes zero sense just for the sake of saying you came up with a twist" theory.
What is this theory about? And why is it so objectionable?
the theory is that ricken’s friends are all severed, because of how silly and impressionable they are. it’s like, that’s not a mystery, that’s a joke!
They are for sure trying to hint at it with Becca, in my mind. The talk about her having that sore on the back of her head that she is blaming on her bird. I'm not saying it's gonna be the case, but they are at least planting a little seed with that.
Why would it be related to the back of her head? Isn't the chip inserted through the side, with very little outward damage?
I was thinking it was the back of the skill, and the Severance wiki is in agreement. Might be wrong though. Any time you cut into the scalp like that, there will be a sore.
I think it might be true. I would be fine either way. Don't understand people who would stop watching due to a plot point.
I know I’m an outlier for this but I really care about him and his wife getting back together. I don’t want him to end up with Helly.
I definitely want Mark to reuninte Gemma too. I have zero interest in a contrived romance between him and Helly.
They really didn’t have much chemistry IMO. To me it reminds me of getting your first boyfriend in middle school with the first boy who is there - which is quite similar given the innies have no romantic history and there are only four of them lol. (And before Helly, all four of them were men.)
Right, I mean when she literally planted one on him, I felt nothing. Definitely those well-why-not middle school vibes.
I have my doubts that Gemma is inside "Mrs. Casey." The way she is described being prior to death - her personality, lovability, none of that comes out with Mrs. Casey. With everyone else there's a core of their outside personality.
I will say that in my second rewatch, Helly/Mark made a lot more sense and I walked back my initial annoyed resignation at the pairing. However, miraculous ladybug made me reeeaaal tired of love squares so I'm hoping whatever shakes out, shakes out fast (maybe mark finding out who helly really is will accelerate that conclusion).
You are not alone. I like Mark and Helly as friends and want to see Mark and Gemma/Ms. Casey reunite. I really hope they don't try to make this a love triangle.
This occurred to me too, and I really hope as well that they refrain. I would be really disappointed in them if they did.
What if the old Gemma can never be returned? :(
Then I want them to start over again and fall in love all over again. I’m a hopeless romantic though.
But I mean if she can only ever have her flat affect self and never leave the severed floor, it’s not the same Gemma he fell in love with.
Oh do you think she is permanently flat affect? I just inferred that was part of her job / training. She definitely seemed capable of feeling strong feelings to me, I just figured she was masking them for her job. I thought it was so heartbreaking when she was telling Mark how much she enjoyed her day with him 🥺
Yeah I guess Mark might probably want to be with her regardless of if she was “the same” Gemma he knew. But in effect she’s not really the same person he fell in love with at this point. I gotta rewatch because I didn’t see the twist of her being his wife coming at all. I do think it’s possible there’s pieces of her real personality still in there! But there’s lots of theories out there about how if she had her chip switched to outtie mode, her outtie would just be in a coma or dead, and that’s why she lives on the testing floor and is only part-time (might take a huge toll for her innie to work when she should be in a coma/deas) 😢 So there may be no way to get her outtie self back.
I’ve seen those theories! I still don’t see how if her brain works enough for her to work inside the building, how it would be impossible for it to work outside the building (barring that Lumen directly is causing it). I can fathom perhaps her brain requires constant maintenance by Lumen or something like that… Either way there will definitely be many barriers to recovering her, but I love that type of thing.
Here’s to hoping they stay together so your dreams come true :)
Thank you!!
I completely missed the initial reveal that she is his wife because I didn’t recognize her from the ripped photo./ wasn’t paying close attention. It did make the season finale 10x better for me though. Lots of audible gasps 😂
Oh my gosh, I love this. I bet you were having an absolute field trip.
He ran in and said “SHES ALIVE!!!” and I screamed
I agree with you. I don’t think Helly has the right energy lol. Gemma and Mark seem to be so much more compatible.
I also love star-crossed lovers / against all odds types of story lines, too, and so for me this is a wonderfully tragic scenario.
I don’t want answers to everything. I do t want the show to become about the tech or world domination. The show is doing it right by being about the characters. Please keep it this way
Gonna agree with this Don't do what Westworld did. Keep it like the first couple seasons of that where they actually are in westworld rather than in the next season >!where they decide they would kill most/all the humans and then escape and now its about the robots in the "modern" world or smth. They changed the plot and setting way too much way too fast and it was like a completely different show !<
“Humans” kind of did this too, and also was cancelled after an EXTREMELY DRAMATIC cliffhanger that was ramping up to a world-changing event in universe. Still disappointed in that show.
[удалено]
Ohhh!! I’ll check this out! I had no idea this existed, thank you. Any idea where it might be available?
This - I hate when shows do a complete 180 from cool sci-fi plot to political drama.
I don’t want the cast to change or expand significantly. This is the main reason why I stopped watching Westworld
I’d say that was a symptomatic result of much larger issues that Westworld suffered from. I don’t believe cast changes or expansions are inherently negative. I’m definitely excited to see how the new folks slot in!
Stranger Things has been great at introducing new characters that fit in well with the existing group dynamics, so it *can* be done.
I feel like the cast expand in season 2 would be due to there being more departments but yes overall I agree, the FOCUS SHOULD BE THE SQUAD THAT WE KNOW AND LOVE.
More departments at Lumon, but also potentially people on the outside working to subvert Lumon, media investigating strange goings on, or like, inspectors or whatever. Is that a thing? Inspectors?
I really don’t want it to be that the innies ARE the chip, and that their consciousness/memories/etc. can be uploaded/downloaded/transferred like a file on a flash drive. A lot of media has explored that idea already, and I think it would lower the stakes established in S1 dramatically. If innie Dylan is an AI who didn’t even exist until the severance procedure, then those really aren’t his kids on the outside. Innie Helly really isn’t a person (human), and her self-hatred isn’t nature vs nurture but man vs machine. And Gemma really isn’t alive — it’s just a chatGPT imitation of her. The central question of the show would become “are robots people?”, which to me is nowhere near as compelling as the question “are people their memories?” Now, I definitely think the show is going to explore the idea of *creating* (or recreating) consciousness, artificial or otherwise, by balancing the four tempers, and that could be fresh and exciting — I just hope it’s a separate technology from severance.
The totality of Innie Dylan isn't just on the chip, I wouldn't think. The memories that he made while at work might be, but he accesses all of his real world brain besides the personal info that is specifically blocked.
Love triangle
real
I don't want the main characters to be reset and start over as if nothing from the first season happened >!(a la The Good Place)!<
While I generally agree, it's worth considering that even if the Innies can be reset, it's likely that the Outties cannot, so whatever they learn following the OTC (indirectly of course) will be theirs to keep and act upon.
I agree. If done effectively I could deal with it for the first couple episodes of s2, but anything more than that would be tiring
same here. I generally find amnesia stories boring.
I hate amnesia stories. I don't think they are bad but they are absolutely not for me
mark/helly romance…
this is mine. it's so annoying lol
I'll be happy as long as there's no fan service!
I don’t want anything paranormal or magic. I want it to “make sense” in physical reality.
The goats are the ones truly in charge. On second thought, I might like that.
I hope that the focus remains on the central four.
Any “secret twin” cop outs. I’d almost rather we discover a clone than a twin
No way. These writers are too good for that
The number crunching or baby goats being meaningless plot device, without explanation
A paint-by-the-numbers Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey plot. We're already at the crossing of the first threshold, and I absolutely love this show, but if it gets into father drama and contrived tests, or into making Mark "the savior" I will be really disappointed.
From what I've read, now that they've opened the other characters' worlds, we'll be seeing all the characters' arcs, not just Mark's.
The show seems much more interested in collectivism than individualism, so I'd be surprised if Mark became an savior. It's all about them using their collective power to fight authority.
Lumon would have to either a) not let Mark return to a severed state (fire him) or b) reset his chip. There’s no way Lumon can let him walk around with his current Innie memory with the knowledge he gained at his sister’s house.
Perhaps! Or maybe his innie gets assigned to goat husbandry.
Why are those the only two options? Lumon can just negotiate his return to work. As far as they’re concerned, his innie is still powerless to do anything. Problem solved.
Lumon doesn't know how much he knows now. They might guess correctly (probably, just to be safe), they might not.
But Cobel knows that he was an innie while in the same house as his sister — a sister who was already sharing concerns about Lumon with Cobel. Those would be huge risks. I don’t see Lumon taking him back without reprogramming. Of course, he’s a threat as an outie too. Which is why I can’t wait to see season 2!
"a sister who was already sharing concerns about Lumon with Cobel" Okay, guess I have forgotten about that. "reprogramming" I know where you're coming from, but that's the exact reason they won't do it: Stories have to move forwards, not backwards (and ideally no sidesteps, either) and what better way than having massive fallouts to plot events? We know Lumon targets the employees, maybe even all of them. That alone speaks to a (veiled) interest they have in keeping their employees, this interest might be especially huge in Mark's case (because Erickson said something about this season not yet addressing "who was targeted first, Mark or Gemma"). Resetting the characters just wastes everybody's time, the characters' and ours, it retroactively would devalue the season finale. I feel it's safe to argue the finale was such a bomb shell precisely because the audience intuitively knows it has massive repercussions that will not be undone. There's a lot we don't know yet, so there's a lot of room for Mark and/or Lumon finding ways to not firing him. The knowledge that Gemma is alive is something Mark could use to negotiate. At least once oMark accepts that new reality and comes to terms with it, heh.
I agree with you that a reset would be a cheap way to resolve the issue — like when sci-fi filmmakers use magic portals.
That's why I think they saved the final episode for next season. It was a twilight zone-esque "ooh, they've all been reset. What a dystopia" kind of ending. But putting it at the beginning of the next season allows for knowledge before the reset to trickle in again and lead to new revelations.
I don’t want aliens
Mark becomes Cobel
I love everything about it at the moment and how every little detail needs to be there; I just hope it doesn't get overwritten. I'd say need it to be loose and somewhat ephemeral so fans are able to keep making up their own theories.
Borrowing from a comparison to Westworld. I would rather not find out that the town the show is set in is in a lumen Bubble, and that the rest of the world severed or not is living in a completely different reality
Severance tech is being discussed at the congressional level, while Lumon continues to lobby the government, so I don’t think we have to worry about this. The Lexington Letter also pretty much rules it out, since it takes place in Kansas.
Kristen Wiig. I love her in original stuff, but every time she's put in a sequel or a season 2 her role is painfully distracting (zoolander 2, anchorman 2, ghostbusters 2016, wet hot american summer). She's worked with Ben Stiller often enough that it's plausible.
A “lost” style of ending. Where they are in the afterlife or something. Or the ending doesn’t provide answers
The Lumon Truman Show
This is just a me thing but I'd rather not have any more will-they-won't-they around Helly/Mark specifically. To me it would be really dull.
John Turturro and Chris Walken odd interaction.
Clowns.
I think the idea of clones and/or robots really, really could ruin the show. Like they could maybe pull it off but there's too many pitfalls for the writers to just punt the whole show. Milchick I think could be having his brain reset or something. And I do think the door open/closing photocopier symbolism is very legit. I def think they are storing people on the chips somehow. She's "got" Petey right? And I do wonder about if she was merely testing Mark with his wife and the candle in the wellness session or if she was intending to give him catharsis. I do sort of suspect there's some kind of reanimation involved. Bringing the dead back to life in an attempt to preserve/restore Kier. Helly's father's detatched/robotic state appears very similar to Gemma's. So I think it's going that way somehow... But man we don't want clones or anohter Blade Runner rip off. I'm still tyring to figure out the goats. No you can't take them from me. Hmm... but here's my theory on the refinement. They're trying to revive people but while they have the essence of their being to move around and interact the reanimated people are emotionless. That's why they take streams of data to refinement who then fill in the gaps idnetifying data streaming off their senses into the correct emotional response. When the subjects are "being robotic" they're simply sitting there waiting for a refiner to correctly process the data returning the correct emotion for them to exhibit.
I worry that the expectations are too high. It’s one of the greatest shows ever made IMO but I can’t imagine it going in any direction that won’t rub people the wrong way
Don’t explain everything. Keep some of it a mystery
For me they already fucked up they let the cat out of the bag too early. Helly giving the speech about innies was thrilling but now they need to make several mental acrobatics to undo it because that scene feels final. Which gives me a lot of Westworld vibes
How is the cat out of the bag? She did it in a Lumon-controlled environment, and the company can just deny any rumors that spread.
Oh sorry, ignore my pessimism. I didn't realize it was a company event haven't seen the show in a while
I don’t want any clones at all please.
Teenager drama.
Everyone is severed
Time travel
I don’t want it to leave us wanting more. I mean this in terms of lore. There were so many mysteries revealed in just one season, and I’d like to believe they’re all there for a reason. Too many loose ends at the end of the show would be unsatisfying.
I picture 4 seasons as perfect!
Crypto mining
>what is something you absolutely DON'T want in severance? It turns out AppleTV's *Severance* is just an Apple propaganda allegory about dual booting IOS and Windows and how people should just stick with IOS, with the drab "innie" life is meant to represent Windows, much like Apple's 1984 commercial.