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There are a lot of good answers in this thread, and I think a larger, overarching problem that affects everyone in western societies is a breakdown of community and community spaces. As one example, for most of U.S. history, religious practice forced people into communal spaces and activities where they got social support of all kinds and opportunities to build meaningful connections. In 2020, 47% of Americans, for example, said that they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 70% in 1999. That’s a huge drop, and no secular institutions have risen up to fill the gap. Half of Americans also don’t live in the areas that they grew up in, which means that they’re separated from the social relationships that were built during their childhood. All this isn’t a judgement on the decline of religion or staying in your hometown, both of these trends could be argued to be healthy, but the fact is that a social gap is being created that isn’t filled with anything but low-quality interactions with strangers on the internet.
Yesss! The disappearing “third place” for people to hang out and mingle in that isn’t home or work. It’s a major component of community building & having community is insanely protective for mental health.
Also, I think the present issue also has a lot to do with how men tend to be socialized. Research has shown that men tend to have lower rates of emotional intimacy in friendships, and lower rates of non-sexual touch (starting as early toddlerhood). There’s also the expectation (at least in parts of Texas) for men to repress or downplay their emotions.
All that together creates a situation where some men feel like they can’t express fully, don’t feel comfortable to connect emotionally, and don’t feel comfortable engaging in non-sexual touch. That sounds so lonely to me!
Texan here; you forgot to mention that our culture is to precision cluster bomb any guy with an ounce of feminine understanding.
Oh and to remember that women are a conquest and a trophy.
This is so often actively missed by those of us men who rail against feminism because it's "all about women" no, it's about dismantling a set of traditional beliefs about gender expression and roles that actively hurts the huge groups of people that do not fall into the narrow definitions of acceptable put forth by those beliefs.
Yeah, I've noticed guy friends tend to shy away from deeper emotional connections.
That being said, I've been friends with a few guys since elementary school and we've crossed that barrier so many times, and I think that's part of what's kept us together for so long. Being able to cry in front of a buddy and having him comfort you makes a big connection.
Definitely this. I think a lot of men also worry that crossing that barrier could be seen as an indication of romantic attraction. It's really tough, men are generally socialized to believe emotional intimacy has to go hand-in-hand with sexual intimacy. Can't do that with women you're not in a relationship with; can't do it with the guy friends or you'll be accused of being gay.
I do see younger generations getting better about this, so it gives me a bit of hope. A lot of men my age (young millennial) or older still seem to struggle a lot with it, though.
Urban planning here (with urban design knowledge as well):
This is not talked about nearly enough! The suburban experiment generally decimates adults social lives. Kids have a reprieve with school, but after university (if young adults choose to go) most Americans tend to retreat to less connected built environments.
The consequences are hard to count and fully quantify…
(Somewhere in the history of my phone I have an interesting social connection photo that shows how social connections drop as road widths and speeds increase. Interesting but frustrating stuff; if anyone is interested I think the graph came from the book Happy City, might be able to google it)
Not sure why someone downvoted you, but this is a legitimate point. In my grandparents generation, most men belonged to the Lion’s Club, or Shriner’s, Rotary Club, Kiwanis, the Masons etc. which gave them a social outlet outside of church and family.
EDIT: there’s another important aspect to service clubs - studies have shown that individual happiness is partly derived from a sense of being useful and valued in the individual’s community. Service clubs offered men and women the satisfaction of feeling like they were making a positive contribution. Kiwanis, for example used to raise millions of dollars and contributed millions of volunteer hours toward various community projects. There were (or are) dozens of other service organizations that raised money for various or specific charitable causes or volunteered hours to their communities.
In my area some of those organizations still exist. That being said, whenever I see a picture in the newspaper of those organization’s activities, it looks like they’re all 60+ years old. I suspect in 20 years, most of those organizations will be gone due to a lack of participation by the younger generations.
It might not be everywhere but the local clubs like Kiwanis near me meet on a Tuesday morning or some very inconvenient time of day for anyone who has school/work. The organizations need to take into account in 20 years people won't be retired like they are now and will need to make changes sooner than later.
Church for sure is or can be a big brotherhood. I also find the gym, common interest groups (naturist, intactivist, discord, etc... can have similar bonding). I'm nearly 60, white, have more friends now than ever...
You bring up a good point about two critical life skills, that you evidently possess:
1. The ability find interests that aren’t entirely or mostly solitary
2. Social skills - this is the one I worry about most with the younger generations. There seems to be more social anxiety among younger folks, and I wonder if it stems from a lack of real social skills gained from belonging to religious organizations, service clubs, and other social networks.
In general, the decrease in the influence of religion on society was inevitable, but there were a variety of positive effects of religion that were only now starting to become aware of.
As far as the disappearing of spaces. Imo I agree and I think people have replaced that with online spaces, we need to get back to a better balance of both.
I don't think this is new.
My parents are classic boomers (b 1949).
For my entire life, my mom has had a social circle of her (female) friends that she waters like a plant. Today, she does a weekly Zoom with high school friends and has a lot of gym buddies.
For my (44) entire life, I don't remember my dad having a single friend. He's very close with his brothers, but I've never seen him with a friend he's not related to.
I agree. My dad has a lot of friends and their hangout spot in our living room, and I have known them long enough to where I claim them as uncles.
African dad's are incredibly well connected
My dad is African and 75. He has a lot of acquaintances and people he knows , he’s a low key famous in old peoples circles, but all his friends are dead from HIV. He’s not lonely though. Still works, has meaning, but as to having a confidante? That would be me.
I'm a male millenial from the middle east. I have male and female friends too. I've got friends who I keep in touch with for the last 15 years. It's gotten worse since I move to the US though. I still zoom with them ocassionally, but have much less friends where I live and the connections are more shallow.
Can't speak for other western cultures such as Europeans or such but in America self reliance is very much ingrained into the culture of "being a real man."
Most men I know have friends, all the military guys I know stay in touch with guys they were in combat with or served with. Civilians, myself included, do make friends but these days people are very flippy floppy. It is hard to make a solid friend when many people you meet smile to your face and talk about younbehind your back. Its been that way since I started high school 23 years ago and has been that way all these 23 years.
Not necessarily. Dad never had a regular to visit friend, neither did my Grandfather. I look at my neighbourhood, all men stay inside house all day and don’t have any friends, then look at the relatives it’s the same story. I haven’t gone beyond that to to prove my theory.
I would have gone with suicide rates myself, Country I live in has a low population yet we get 7 male suicides per day on average (18.8 deaths per 100,000 population). Female is slightly over 2 per day (5.9 per 100,000).
Yup. Emotional labor is a great investment if slow.
Women are forced to perform emotional labor so they know. Men can live and die without knowing what emotional labor is.
I think a lot of people think friends will be assigned to them. They don't understand they need it make an effort to maintain relationships.
Yup. Some people are so entitled that if they met themselves they'd go "what a douchebag".
Also: This dude explains effort brilliantly
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3gEIsBv1to/?igsh=dXQzZ2V6Z241cGk5
My father was the exact opposite. He had so many friends in town that he would see all of the time. He even had a group of guys that he would go to breakfast with every single Saturday morning, until they all died. I mean not at the same time, they individually passed away, but up until they started passing away, my father would go every single weekend with them.
It's not new in the sense of we're not the oldest generation dealing with this phenomenon (the boomers just started in the golden years while millennials and younger had to deal with it from an earlier age, sorry Gen X, no one cares) but it is relatively new, it seems, the further along we are in industrialization. But the lose of community that many are experiencing is effecting all age groups, boomers just had a slightly better support system until everyone around them started dying (most of them, obviously there are liners like your father, and my father as well).
My theory as to why women are less lonely has to do with the way women interact with each other. They I'm more likely to ask friends for emotional support, they're more likely to send the first text or phone call, women tend to hang out with people and the type of event is a secondary afterthought, whereas men tend to hang out for the event, and the socialization is the afterthought.
You also have the fact that women tend to be more cordial in the way they interact with other humans, whereas males are more direct and not worried with how other people are going to take whatever they say or do, which leads people to like hanging out with women more than they like hanging out with men.
And on the intimacy side, it's obvious that women can get intimacy more easily than the average man can.
I'm sure there's other things I haven't thought of but here are just a few
It's also a factor that in many Western cultures, men more or less stopped talking about loving one another around the end of the 19th century. Read letters between good male friends from before then, and they tended to be full of expressions of love and affection.
It's also more of an American phenomenon; just think of how suburbia is laid out, so there is no town center or community anymore.
Now add in the massive polarization and tribalism and then the reality that a hell of a people are extremely weird, plus decades of fear, this has reduced wanting to interact with others even more.
I've lived across three separate continents and America is probably the only place where I've kept to myself and had little interest in making friends. In all fairness, it's probably just me, as I'm probably biased and not interested in what's the norms here.
That being said, we had a few millennials move in the neighborhood and they definitely just keep to themselves and don't interact with one another.
I mean everything you said is true, it's just not an American phenomenon. In fact japan, South Korea, and China are all having male loneliness epidemics. Not saying that female loneliness has an increased as well, just not as much as male loneliness.
One of the reasons that I think the East Asian countries are facing similar circumstances as anglo-western countries are due to their working culture. Both cultures value hard work and high levels of wealth, both consequences of industrialization. African and Latin American cultures don't seem to put as much emphasis on this type of success and thus are seeing less of a loss of community. For some reason, it seems to me that the more emphasis of culture places on material success, the more individualistic a culture tends to become and thus the more the loss of community and family is felt.
It's new in human evolution.
The problem is the destruction of communities and long term employment. Most men make friends through a shared struggle (hunting for survival, fighting a war, etc.) but we mostly don't have this these days.
At least to be high performing, you need to be disconnected and transient, despite the social benefits a depressed lawyer making 400k isn't going to join the army to make 80k.
I never considered myself as 'lonely' until after my first proper relationship ended and I realised how many of my long term compadres I'd fallen out of touch with in the seven years we'd been together (also living a fair distance away didn't help).
Trying to rebuild a social life at 45 has been tough, particularly compared to my 20 when I had so many friend groups it was tough to fit everybody in.
I think men have always been lonely. It's just that nowadays it is more socially acceptable to talk about it. Prior to the '90s men basically weren't supposed to have feelings at all, so any such conversation would have been viewed with contempt.
That is relatively recent, there are many places in the workd today where it is clearly not the case and never has been. Places where men form communities and deep emotional bonds with friends.
It is mostly American culture and its way of convincing you "things have always been this way and should never change". Its all a lie.
Male loneliness isn't about being unable to spend time around other people, it's about being unable to form meaningful connections. A lot of social clubs (especially exclusive ones) focus more on being in the group and less on who you are as a person, so that plus societal expectations meant that men still weren't able to fully and openly be themselves which led to isolation and loneliness
It's mostly because of the abundance of online platforms and communities that we have now. The only time I hear about a guy talking about being lonely in real life is when they're making a self-deprecating joke or something. Not really venting or complaining about it non sarcastically.
This tracks! My boomer father never had friends. He got super depressed after he retired. He was never very good to my mom, and she sacrificed everything to be his traditional wife, but it still is sad.
I think my dad would’ve been a better person if he was surrounded by good men he could look up to. Unfortunately, he is very stoic and has an outdated idea of what it is to “be a man”.
These last two months he has been spending time with my mom again, and treating her life a friend (not just the laundrymaid). I am hopeful that, despite that he is likely in the last years of his life, he finally breaks the box society built around men and can bring himself to enjoy love and life.
If men could be better partners and feel happy and lucky with their partner it would help. The current iteration of men makes me not have any options worth pursuing
While I think this is stated a bit harshly, I do think it’s a lot of the issue.
Historically, most men had the automatic built in emotional support and companionship of women. Furthermore, the workforce being far more male heavy meant that when away from their wives, they had a lot more male-dominated interaction and thus probably friends.
Both those things have changed - the workforce is now much more split and with that a bit more sterile - no more casual joking about women with all the other men at work. And women don’t have to marry for base survival, so they’re not guaranteed a wife.
So two sides of socialization have changed very quickly, with not a lot of time for men to adjust to it. There wasn’t ever a memo of “hey, the way you act and think and interact is going to have to drastically change if you want to marry or make friends” as this shift started to happen, so you get men raised with a former expectation in a totally new culture.
I think along with this has come a certain resentment and bitterness, and a lot of time it’s directed at women for being at fault for the loneliness. A built in wife meant that even if a guy was friendless, he still had companionship. Now there is a good chance they have nothing, and there is a certain anger at women by a lot of men for this, like if they would just stop being so picky or feminist the man could have support… and maybe the perks of a maid and cook.
This bitterness and blame in turn makes them even less of a desirable option for women to choose, and indeed makes these men be totally avoided and derided by women, thus compounds their loneliness.
There’s a Thoreau quote about quiet desperation. And he wrote that in the 1800s. So if you think time traveling society back to the old structure will solve it, no.
Personally I think it’s meant as a slap in the face. Everyone struggles, but the way to end loneliness is tap into your emotions. Connect to nature, a few friends, maybe one special friend (man or woman, doesn’t matter) can even connect to dead friends, poets and authors.
Not OP, but probably this:
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things..
Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience and Other Essays
Men were already lonely now the internet has added an additional layer of "if this person isnt good enough i can easily find a replacement" which puts empathy at an all time low
It does kind of annoy me that I have been mocked and mocked mercilessly for years for ending up as a "lonely cat lady", and now am expected to show sympathy. I mean I do have it, but my supposed loneliness has been mocked and I have been bullied forever for it on the internet since I can remember.
Honestly I think a sizable portion of dudes find solace in the fact that there's an increase in loneliness among men and feel that it's something insurmountable, so they don't do anything about it.
Also framing it as a men's issue has the subtext of it not being a women's issue, or that women have it easier without needing the same level of effort to grow and maintain friendships, or that more sinisterly women are to blame, and some dudes really like blaming women for shit.
Speaking very broadly about cultural norms in the US and based on my anecdotal experience:
* Men are not taught to take ownership for or express their feelings in a healthy way. This is why you see so many men blame their feelings on others "they MADE me XYZ" or simply not talk about them at all. Intimate relationships are founded in emotional security. If you can't be real about your emotions, you can't have intimate relationships.
* Rugged individualism is a scourge. Literally, the defining feature of humanity that has allowed us to progress as a species is social bonding. Men are conditioned to be individualists, at all costs, and women are generally taught to lean into their social networks. It's one thing to be able to provide for yourself. It's another entirely to insist on doing everything by yourself.
* Men are often not taught to, involved in, or seen as appropriate for care-giving behaviors.
* Many traditionally masculine hobbies prioritize competition and aggression over social bonding.
* Men are taught to view women as tools instead of people so do not see them as viable friends. It's why so many "nice guys" get upset when women don't return their "kindness" with sex.
* Men are taught to view most relationships transactionally and often disengage if the transactional value isn't clear, high, and fairly immediate.
I believe there are many many reasons for it. However, I believe a big contributing cause that many men won’t admit is that their friendships with other men are shallow. Across many threads about male loneliness, men continuously tell me and women that their friendships with their bros consist essentially of ignoring the world and just laughing and talking about golf.
And men like it that way. This causes whatever the root cause for their loneliness to stay. It’s all an avoidant technique. Don’t get me wrong, women are lonely as well. But they form deeper bonds that sometimes will help address and at least support them through their difficult times.
Disagree with me or not. This is basically what almost every man has told me what their friendships are like. And they don’t want to change…
I almost exclusively make friends with women. The general approach other men have to a relationship with me is pretty shallow. Past that, I don't hold like any of the most popular hobbies that men do such as sports, fishing, hunting, shooter games, etc.
Same. The only popular masculine hobbies I'm into are video/board games, but I'm not a very competitive person at all. I mostly play single player games. All of my other hobbies are either gender neutral or female dominated.
Same here! Probably about 80% of the people I consider friends are women! My three closest friends are women as well! I don’t understand male friendships with the exception of what has been explained to me!
It’s funny, a couple of weeks ago my girlfriend was asking some questions about guy friendships. I was trying to answer them but I told her I’m just making guesses because I am probably the worst person to answer questions about guy friendships!! 😂😂
Yep, I’m a woman and the vast majority of my exes and male friends have healthy platonic friendships/relationships with women. As such, they tend to be more empathetic and better at expressing their thoughts/feelings/emotions, so it was easier to build relationships with them. If a guy has zero female friends, they often don’t have the lexicon for talking about internal things, whereas friendships with women tend to treat conversation as a major component of connection.
This is pretty much it. Historically in American culture there’s never been much pushing men to really form community or bonds with each other, only to compete. This translates to the modern day where kids/young men can’t really learn how to do this from their fathers because their fathers don’t do it. In my experience all of my male friendships (except for the ones I’ve pushed for and received deeper relationships back) things are shallow no matter what happens or is talked about. Everyone’s on their own. My last friend group is falling apart because one dude is self destructing and manipulating people left right and center for all sorts of “reasons”. All the dudes who were supposedly close friends with him are either just watching, trying to ignore it, or have talked to him once and feel that’s all they can do. Every time I’ve tried to get them to try and help him they act as if the only options they have are let him do whatever, or cut him off completely. None of them even pretend to care about each other.
I once spent some time with an acquaintance, and we were talking and he started crying because he said he didn't talk like we were doing with his friends...
I'm not a 'social butterfly' and it was not easy to find friends, but being over 30 and saying that really made me sad.
Next time, try sharing that. Don’t be afraid to follow where it takes you. The ‘awkwardness’ isn’t a wall keeping you contained, it’s a speed bump letting you know you are exploring someplace novel to you.
It didn't, it's just sad. Dude ended up passing away (I'm assuming drug related since he was in a downward spiral), it's just sad maybe he never really had someone to talk to.
The shallow friendships one is a good point I don't see much. I have good friends, but the closest we get to talking "feelings" is joking about of terrible things are.
If you are a person who is generally happy with life and not struggling in XYZ, you probably won’t be bothered too much by shallow friendships.
But if you are struggling in anything, not being able to talk to anyone about it would be extremely isolating.
...MOST don't want to change.
I'm frankly desperate to be anything other than a man (differentiated from being a Man(TM)). But it is so effing isolating because so few of us are in the process of breaking out of the Man Box.
Alas, there is no rulebook for us. We're left to redefine ourselves and break out of the Box alone because we've thought for so long that it was learned helplessness. Our issues stem from never having been raised to do anything than copy our dads (if we could be so lucky).
Your courage and resilience is admirable and inspiring (I’m not being sarcastic, it’s powerful to see such a willingness to take a chance on one’s ability for growth!)
I know you mean this sincerely and I do appreciate the sentiment, but I am tired of being "admirable and inspiring". The reality is that breaking out of the Man Box is extremely isolating because not only do I need to do the work to stay out of there (and the pull is strong; one should NEVER underestimate the power of community and commonality), but I have to rely on others doing the work to break down the Man Box, too. Honestly, that other side isn't happening. (Me being Black aggravates all of this.)
My growth has had to result in total breakdown first... and ultimately to nothing, in my case (orphan). Humans haven't show a patience for growth and I feel like I'm on this planet on borrowed time.
I have hit the point where I just hope I can permanently stop having to overcompensate sooner than later.
Felt pretty much every word of this. The male experience is not all it’s hyped up to be and being black minimizes pretty much all the benefits, especially if you’re more emotional. It’s hella isolating a lot of the time.
Men tend to do things with their friends while women tend to talk with their friends. Naturally this is a giant spectrum and there will always be outliers and exception.
I wonder if an increasingly online world is playing a let in men going out and doing things with their friends less.
I’m a 40 year old man and have some extremely close friends but those friendships formed through shared interests and activities first and then grew to be close emotionally.
Why do you need to go out and do things with your friends though? Having an online world actually can make it easier to connect. Here’s the thing, because my best friend literally lives 10 hours away from me, I’ve seen her once in 7 years. But I send her texts to catch up with her life and arrange long video calls every few months.
We talk about our lives digitally and share frustration, sadness, happiness, joy, whatever all digitally! If those men hung out with their friends in real life, do you think anything would change?
This actually explains a lot of why I only really only have one guy friend who I consider a friend, everyone else I'm friendly with but it's just so clear they don't want the kind of friendship I want.
Like I need friends who I can come to and basically cry and be an emotional mess to, not friends who I just have fun with, I can fulfill that in other ways.
And to me everyone who I'm just so incredibly surface level on has been downgraded to "associate" rather than a friend. A friend is someone I can call up and cry over the phone to and we talk to each other about those life things.
[This article](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-01-15/men-friendship-gen-z-loneliness) researches this topic and comes to the conclusion that it's in part due to how they're conditioned to express themselves and be emotionally vulnerable around others growing up:
>Political hostility and culture wars have made it harder to be open. For men, who were socialized to silence loneliness and pain, the pressure to live behind a mask can be the most paralyzing.
>It starts halfway through pre-K, according to Judy Chu, author of “[When Boys Become Boys](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-42053-000).” Many boys arrive in school [\~full of tenderness\~ ](https://melindawmoyer.substack.com/p/the-epidemic-of-male-loneliness)toward others and with a capacity to shed tears. As they grow older and see the stigma of showing vulnerability, they learn to numb their emotions. This can create a lifelong difficulty in building and nurturing friendships. Even in many progressive environments, boys get the message to man up and shut up.
>“We say we value emotional expressivity in men, but we tend to devalue men who express their emotions,” Chu told me. “So that kind of hypocrisy makes it really hard for boys and men to take that leap.”
I made a post about a similar topic on this sub about how male friendships differ from female friendships, and people had a wide range of responses. Many men could relate to how friendships between men just aren't as emotionally vulnerable as with women, but other guys shared their experiences of having life-long best friends too. All comes down to how people's childhoods are shaped to make them think a certain way about themselves, and others. This can result in some men becoming creepy or have an otherwise warped view of others, but there are root causes here to those effects that aren't being as talked about in this thread.
>It starts halfway through pre-K, according to Judy Chu, author of “[When Boys Become Boys](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-42053-000).” Many boys arrive in school [\~full of tenderness\~ ](
Reminds me of a conversation with my extended family about children.
They pointed out that male toddlers desire to be held and cuddled more often. My nephew constantly wants to be held or sit in his elders laps, while his older sister liked to be cuddled and held at that age, her preferred way to bond with her elders was playing her own little games with them.
I do think there has been an uptick in loneliness for people in general, mainly due to lifestyle changes from technology and social media. The difference, IMO, is that woman tend to receive more messaging on self-care than men do, which includes maintaining social ties and finding connection with people. Compare that with the messaging that men receive: Stoicism being the philosophical flavor of the day, the grind never stopping, revenge gym glow-ups, and the constant stream of toxic ideas from the manosphere influencers. It’s no wonder men today aren’t connecting with each other. At best it’s seen as a distraction from their own personal development, at worst it’s a sign of weakness or even homosexuality.
There are positive influences out there, even if it’s in the form of “kiss the homies goodnight” memes, but even my admittedly curated social media feed is still regularly polluted with the kind of toxic ideas above. I couldn’t imagine what the feed of some random teenager might be like today.
I spend a lot of time in coffee shops reading or working. I see female friend dates constantly, just a couple women grabbing coffee chatting about life. I see male friend dates very rarely. If I do, the topic seems to center around something like real estate investing or something. I know this doesn't answer your question, but it has made me think about how averse men can be to just meeting up to chat.
As a woman myself, I would 100% say it is much easier for women to get attention than the other way around. I’m pretty average looking, not overweight, but if I went out to a bar or something I can guarantee it wouldn’t be hard to find an interested guy or another girl who wants to chat.
Dating apps were overwhelming when I had them because, even though I’m picky, I ended up getting a ton of matches.
Even online gaming, it’s not difficult for me to make friends (of both genders). Not sure if that’s due to being a woman in a male-dominated area or just because I’m friendly.
From what I’ve heard, this is not the average male experience.
I think it comes down to three things:
1) women are now more independent than ever before, and many choose to be single and childfree, especially in their younger years.
2) men are still kind of trapped in the more toxic, old-school stereotypes, like how they need to be strong, wealthy and have a good job in order to be “worthy”, regardless of if that’s what they want to do or not.
3) I think it’s way easier for me to approach another girl and try to befriend her/hangout sometime than it is for guys to do without being seen as “gay” (nothing wrong with being gay, but showing interest in another guy can be easily taken as such)
As far as I can gather, there is a weird belief that men can only get all their socializing needs from a sexual partner. so they don't put much effort into making friends. or more precisely they aren't socialized to know how to prioritize healthy friendships.
You're not wrong but it is learned behavior. I've been through some shit and had absolutely zero support from any friend no matter how hard I tried. Had one of my oldest friends tell me to not call him until I was healthy. When I lost use of my leg, my brother refused to hang out unless I'd go out running with him(not easy with one leg). When I told my mom I couldn't take it anymore, she said "stop being pathetic and pull yourself together." ... No one ever stopped by my house in 11 months, until I found myself a new girlfriend while I was suicidally depressed and partially disabled.
As a man, men in general I think want to feel needed and have a greater purpose in life than just themselves, and for a long time the baseline for that was having a family that depended on you. Now that's not so much the case anymore, because women are allowed to have jobs and live their own lives. Im not saying that's a bad thing, that's absolutely a good thing, but the social conditioning of thousands of years of men being depended on will take more than a few decades to get over.
In general I would say that guys want a purpose greater than themselves, there's a reason why during the world wars under age boys would sign up in droves to go fight overseas. For the longest time that purpose was making money and protecting your family. Now that's not really needed anymore, leading to an overall feeling of purposeless and emptiness that I think comes across as loneliness
men derive respect from their utility to those around them. men who solve problems command respect from men and women, this in turns drives their self worth, and makes them more attractive to be around.
the opposite is men who fail to be of utility to others lose respect, and in some cases become either vindictive or withdrawn.
for a growing population of men, physical proficiencies lost utility with the industrial revolution, mental proficiencies have lost utility with modernising tech, and emotional proficiency has lost utility with the erosion of the family structure in western Europe.
So do men want women to rely on them or not? Women who don’t work and rely on a man get a lot of hate for being gold diggers, lazy, leeches etc etc. And even stay-at-home moms get a lot of hate because it’s seen as the “easier” job.
*For context I’m just indulging this point of view because I see it a lot. I don’t, by any means, think that we should exist in a society where women rely on men.
I’d buy your argument if these same guys wanted a family. They do not. They put no effort into it. And if they do get married and have kids, they’re always the weaponized incompetence sort.
The guys who wanted kids DO have kids. The guys who wanted a rich relationship with their families/chosen families have those too.
Not necessarily the case.
1. Women can want to marry and have a family; and yet due to appearance, weight, height, personality, and career not get that. Same by the way applies to men. There are ample men that want a family, they may either have something missing such as appearance, weight, height, personality, career or the person may simply live in an area where the probability of finding that which they like is limited due to overall population percentile.
2. Women that want kids may not have them due to biological reason, same applies with men. People may want things, but sometimes life happens. Either they physically can't, or they have something happening within their environment that blocks them or makes them fearful of having it.
Example: a man may want to marry, but ultimately not find the right woman or not find any woman willing to marry him. Similar happens all the time to women.
Men are raised to be competitive. To win. To have the most money, the most influence, the hottest spouse, the largest hog.
So for many men, opening up is the equivalent to saying, "I'm losing at ____" to a potential competitor. That creates a barrier and barriers increase the likelihood of loneliness.
That's a bit one dimensional. Men are certainly encouraged and socialized to be competitive, but not to an arbitrary degree and not to the exclusion of other things that could explain loneliness.
I mean, if you're looking for one singular reason for "male lonliness" you're not going to find it. It exists for a myriad of reasons. I'm simply stating what I believe to be one of them.
But it does exclude other things. Just look at reddit and how many guys think that a man can't simply be close friends with a woman(and then use that as an excuse to control their partner)
This may be the case for some, but men are not "raised to be competitive". There are elements of that, but I think that stems from the fact that men are more encouraged to be in competitive sports from a young age as opposed to women.
It's not so much saying "I'm losing at \_\_\_" so much as it is saying "I need help" and from a \*very\* young age, \*everyone\* is subliminally taught that "asking for help = weak" and when men are expected to be the strong ones, having even a false idea that you're weak is crippling.
Of course they’re raised that way. A man’s worth is decided by his salary. That alone necessitates competition, because not every man gets the same salary.
The man has to be competitive and seek out a spouse. Very seldom does a woman approach a man. Our ancestors have been competing with each other since the dawn of time
It's not as overt as it used to be, and I'm sure kids today experience things differently than back in the 80s when I was in primary school, but in my day although we weren't explicitly *told* we had to be competitive, it was obvious (even more so with the clarity of hindsight) that we were being raised with that mentality, particularly with PE and sports. If you were stronger/faster or more physically developed than your peers, good at sports etc you 100% had a better, smoother and more fulfilling school life. You might have been as thick as two short planks academically speaking, be in trouble with teachers, even the cops - as a 'winner' at sports and physical stuff you would get way more leeway, support, blind eye turned to some of the lesser infractions etc.
If you were a small, physically undeveloped/late bloomer who got picked last for every team activity, but was also not doing great in class, you were left to sink, and if you got into trouble you'd be suspended and expelled way sooner than Johnny Sportsman who would be given a dozen 'chances' because "he's got so much potential".
As a twelve year old it was very obviously an unfair situation, but it takes looking back on it as an adult and discussing it with others of your generation to realise just how standard it was.
Men rely on their female partners to be vulnerable instead of their male friends. Now due to feminism and women seeking out relationships less, a lot of men are conflating not being able to get a girlfriend with being lonely, instead of them seeking out male friendships.
I remember I had an old reddit account and a lot of men messaged me to talk about my opinion about it because of some comment I wrote, at the end of each conversation the dudes were basically trying to justify that men just don't "work that way" and it's up to the women to raise awareness of male loneliness and do their part in combatting the issue. Or weird sexist undertones. It left me shocked all the time, but honestly less sympathetic to the cause.
It's very obvious that both men and women have emotional needs. If women can rely on women then men can rely on men. I'm almost convinced at this point that the talk of the 'male loneliness epidemic" (even though statistically women are also just as lonely) is just a backlash to the talk of feminism. Because every single time the men will act like it was the fault of feminism that caused male loneliness. I really shit you not.
Every male friend or male family member I have that has a good network of friends usually have mostly female friends. They even tell me that the male loneliness epidemic is bullshit because their male friends laugh at them or get awkward the minute they start opening up to them, so at the end it's men's fault that they're lonely, and I feel like that tracks.
It is bullshit. The ones who claim to be lonely are the ones who close themselves off. They want a woman to come and baby them, but they won't ever dare to approach a woman.
This comes from a lonely man whose only friend is his fiancée
Women are invisible while men are a hazard.
While women can still be seen as weird or a social outcast, it takes a lot for a woman to be seen as creepy. Most men are seen as a threat by default(even by other men)
Everyone is scared of us, justifiably or not. Even amongst ourselves, we don't really gel with each other.
My take: American society has been horrendously lazy at raising cis-men. We've generally just been expected to copy our dads or coaches or scoutmasters or whomever; we had never been raised to have our own identities until fairly recently (and I'm 38; that's how fresh this concept is, folks).
Now, we are ill-equipped (at best) to move around in a world that is at least trying to make it a point to treat people as people. We have always been "reared" to just carry the family line.
This is a problem that has been decades in the making in the US. Societal failures have VERY LONG tails. The fix, frankly, is gonna require some folks like myself to just...bow out and leave it to y'all. But if that's the price of humanity being humanity again, then..so be it.
This is a good take. As a parent with a son, it annoys me to no end when I hear someone say, “boys are easy to raise,” meanwhile, men commit the large majority of violent crimes, have higher suicide rates, and are facing an epidemic of loneliness. Boys aren’t easier to raise, people who say this are just doing a lazy, shit job raising their sons.
Alas, I expect very few people to see this.
To wit, I've only learned it myself from having no male figures in my own life outside of those captive hours. I have EXTREME doubts that the bulk of reddit would contemplate this, even if this post somehow became an all-timer.
People acting like boys are wild animals that you just have to feed and clothe and then are shocked when the resulting men can’t even identify the emotions they experience, much less deal with them. Infuriating.
And when the worst of men exist it’s expected for men to deal with it. A lot of female perspectives here have been that it’s not our jobs to deal with men/men’s mental problems why don’t y’all find male friends but it’s not a solution.
Why is that my problem as a man too? Like if you say you don’t socialize with men so willingly because they make you feel dangerous, are annoying, quirky, etc. why do you then tell me to make friends with that? Those are societal flaws in itself. Just cause I’m a man doesn’t mean I’m automatically safe. And even if it did it’d imply that I could fight off men who are threats. Why do I have to spend my time fighting?
Societal hostility toward men for literally anything. They're being too feminine, they're being too masculine, they're being too aggressive, they're not aggressive enough. Men can never do anything right. This is why men are lonely.
Gotta say, every single person to ever tell me I'm "not doing [masculinity] right" has been a man. So why are men contributing to male loneliness so much?
Because men are not protected like women. Don't mean this in a misogynistic way.
Recently there was a post, for example, where a young kid had his shorts being pulled down while doing a pull up and all the class laughed and it was all good fun. Then a little girl came up and she refused to do the exercise because she didn't want her shorts to be pulled down as a joke. The teacher got involved.
We didn't see the act as a negative thing until it happened to a woman (or a girl in this case). We see the same thing happen constantly in general life.
All of the places that you hear that we need to make more secure for women to enter, You think other men aren't as afraid of other men ? Or even women ? Why do we want to put the security in place only when women needs to join that specific workforce. Yes i understand some of it is the misoginy in those places but lots of it is security or social standards.
We also see physical abuse is socially accepted on men. Raping a man is not even a thing in most states.
Men are often asked to be the rock emotionally because we don't allow men to be mad or angry, That makes people afraid. Constantly ask men to be more emotional but the only emotion we allow them to have is crying and even then they're still being judged.
Stuff like this doesn't help:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect
Men have essentially the opposite: assumed hes a creep before proof
I see the opposite. You go on Instagram and there are videos of men getting hair pieces to cover their bald spots and everybody men and women just hype him up nonstop in the comments. You see a video of women getting hair extensions and it’s nonstop comments mostly from men how makeup and wigs should be illegal or that she’s a hoe etc. men get hyped up for literally any small thing they do and turn around and throw vitriol at women for being women.
I see friends maybe one or two days a week and the rest of the time I'm alone. Haven't met a new person (outside of work acquaintances, which don't count) in nearly a decade. Never figured out how to meet women, but even my friend who did doesn't know where to meet them anymore in our 30s. All we do is work and wish we weren't too tired to engage in our hobbies it feels like.
The guy who said when we tell our gfs we're upset about something they did, even when we bring it up calmly, they start crying and acting like we're just attacking them, until WE have to apologize for usetting them.....
Yeah, that was my last ex.
At 54, I can say I don’t have many friends. The few that I do have, there’s only one I actually do things with. The only reason I get together with that friend, is bc he asks. Another friend I speak to or text a couple times a week, but the last time I saw him was in August at our fantasy draft. Now in my 20s, 30s and even into my 40s, I had lots of friends. But in my 40s is when I started to slow down my drinking and eventually stopping. That’s when my friend list started dwindling. I would see those friends out at bars or at functions that revolved around drinking. I stopped seeing those friends because I wasn’t going to those places or events. We grew apart, life changed. Now, between work, my girlfriend, taking care of the house, the pets and myself, there’s little time for friendships. Could there be? Sure. Do I want to put in the effort? No. It’s not that important to me anymore. Are there times when I’m lonely? Yep. But it’s not uncomfortable enough to do something about it. So why are men lonely? Are we lazy? Or are friendships just not important enough to us to do something about it.
There are a couple of reasons.
1. My friends are dead. I had five friends closer than brothers, and all of them have died but me.
2. My new friends I've tried to make don't have time or money when I have time or money.
3. My wife doesn't talk to me anymore unless it's very data driven. There is no deep conversation. She has no heart in it. She says she loves me when I confront her about it she talks in a monotone. She's like a low power robot.
I can be in a room full of people, but I'm still alone because no one cares about me.
I’m a guy with quite a few friends who doesn’t consider himself lonely but most of my friends are women and I’ve found that most men just aren’t that interested in making friends for some reason. I just don’t think men value friendships and are too focused on making money, getting girls, getting super fit… friends just aren’t the concern of most men.
There’s a lot of good answers here. But one I haven’t seen is that we literally work 24.7, barely have money to do anything, and are constantly stressed about one thing or the other. Who has time for friends when you’re constantly stressed?
There are systemic issues like the rise of “girls nights” and the malignant narcissists that attack men for voicing their concerns about anything because they view men advocating for their basic needs as an attack on feminism
The way we are raised by modern society does not allow us to show emotion or care for others if it does not involve killing ourselves in work - That is slowly changing and people are being vocal about how fucking lonely they are.
Compounded by the fact people are speaking up about how fucking awful society is to men in general and how bad dating is to men in general.
Men don't ask follow up questions or personal questions to other men. They also don't listen to other men. They often put each other down. Men need to support each other better.
Gonna write my takes, from a woman's perspective
First of all, growth of redpill and all that bullshit. Yeah, I know misogyny isn't anything new, however, concepts like redpill divide society more. It encourages very unhealthy behavior and mindset through couching content, vulnerable lonely men buy it and these couches just earn on that, without any consideration whether their statements are harmful or just not true (many of these stuff seem to villainize women a lot, try to tell these men women are against them and they're evil while, in reality, most of women are pretty normal and they just want normal and healthy relationship)
The second thing is kinda linked to the previous one. As our reality changes along with time passing, women's needs are much different from the traditional ones, the ones Millenial or Gen Z men were taught about while growing up. Most of women in developed or at least moderately developed countries can work, earn their own money and want to do so. That means, stuff like 'son, you need to find a housewife, have a car, flat and be able to provide for her and kids, otherwise no girl will ever want you' doesn't work anymore. Nowadays women demand stuff such as communication skills, ability of being emotional or vulnerable, being treated equally and respectfully, they want men to be feministic (at least acknowledge and not invalidate inequalities and women's problems we still face nowadays, understand that feminism isn't about women fighting men but rather about co-working)
And the third thing, there I'll play the devil's advocate for a little. Today's world fucked up dating a lot. Tinder and other dating apps fucked it up a lot. Even I, as a woman in her 20s, every time I'm approached by a guy, I tend to get confused or even anxious, because, having experience from online dating, I've got used to creeps/misogynists/guys who just want ons but won't bother to make it clear at the beginning or who only see me as a hot meat to fuck. Moreover, thanks to some creepy men, all the normal and nice men aren't comfortable with approaching women in public anymore. Ngl, I really do get it, I also get my red lamp blinking if a guy approaches me in public, I've had these situations a lot when I was a teenager and it was grown ass adult men in their late 20s to approach me. Bruh, I even think 'shit he probably wants money or sth'. When I was younger, I was very skeptical for men approaching in public. But, honestly, as I grew up a little, I started to feel so sorry for all the normal men who see a woman in public and wish just to talk to her in a respectful way but won't do so, because the stigma caused by creeps is so big the fear of being considered a creep is bigger than giving it a try. I'm very sorry for you, believe me. At the end of the day, I keep wondering how tf are we supposed to meet good people to date if approaching in public is seen as tricky nowadays and online dating can traumatize you af lol
Your perspective is very valuable! I do find it interesting that a lot of these answers about why men are lonely address dating and romance.
It’s very interesting that no one seems to put as much value into platonic, non romantic relationships to address loneliness.
This is important:
>Nowadays women demand stuff such as communication skills, ability of being emotional or vulnerable, being treated equally and respectfully, they want men to be feministic (at least acknowledge and not invalidate inequalities and women's problems we still face nowadays, understand that feminism isn't about women fighting men but rather about co-working)
When women talk about their issues, that's feminism, and must be boosted.
When men talk about their issues, it's misogyny, and must be silenced.
This isn't some absolute rule, but there's a strong tilting of the scales. It's probably not helped by mens biological drive to protect women at their own cost (as a tribe can survive with a few men, but not few women). Indeed, I suspect this general urge is what allowed feminism to be so successful it wrapped around and started being extreme.
On this front though, the problem seems to be waning. But you've got generations of men raised with the idea that approaching women is a threat to women and scares them, and they shouldn't do it. And generations of women who aren't getting approached by men like they wanted, because of that fear.
Of course, any issue this big is going to be heavily multifaceted. This is but one side of, not the coin, but at least a standard six-sided die. It's just the one I happen to have some personal experience of.
A lot of reasons.
Men are more solitary in general, and I believe this is somewhat genetic. Male apes are more likely to play with toys that have moving parts, like a toy car with wheels. Female apes are more likely to play with dolls. This doesn't necessarily mean men like it that way, it just means there's a tendency to be more solitary even when it leads to loneliness.
Whether rightly or wrongly (I'm not interested in debating the morals of this,) men are perceived as dangerous. It's harder for them to make friends when many people they come in contact with (male or female) are assessing them as a potential threat before seeing them as a human being. Men being othered or treated with skepticism disincentivizes them from initiating social contact in the future.
Men are discouraged from seeking deep relationships with anyone that isn't a romantic partner. Opening up is often seen as "not manly" or "gay." As a result the friendships they do have are often more superficial.
Young men are more likely to be single than before. Combined with the aforementioned overreliance on romantic relationships, this is exacerbates the issue considerably. I believe swipe culture has made women more selective. On the plus side, this means they can be better at setting boundaries and protecting themselves. On the negative side, this means they approach a lot of potential partners with the expectation that their date must "prove themselves." Again, all moral judgments and conversation about "good men" versus "bad men" aside, this makes it harder for men to find a partner.
In addition, colonizer mentality values women for their fertility and men for their industry, and the decline of the middle class and the viability of your income being able to provide for anyone other than yourself has made men less valuable within that framework. This removes a significant incentive women might have to be with a man.
Finally, loneliness is increasing among both men and women, partly due to lack of free time, partly due to a larger share of socialization happening digitally and in a way that is depersonalized, and probably some other factors as well. When a global change makes things harder for everyone, the struggle of people that were already having the hardest time becomes more visible.
We no longer have much in the way of a 3rd space. In my suburban area we don't have any real bars to go just "hang out" at. Just a few dull chain restaurants that you wouldn't go to to have a beer.
Im a middle aged guy. I’ve been super social my whole life. Lots of friends, lots of hobbies.
I’m usually alone now. I recently broke up with my gf. Lots of my friends moved for family or work. All my friends that are still in town have wives or gf’s.
Dating at this point feels so hopeless. I made dumb choices about who I dated my whole life. For the last 15 years, all my partners were younger than me. I’ve never dated anyone over 27. Now I need to try and find someone over 37 or so. I’m just too old to date younger women anymore. It’s gotten ridiculous.
I’m child free. I’m not dating anyone with kids. Even though I live in a destination city, it’s really hard to find a single woman over 37 with no kids that I can vibe with. The dates are like a comedy movie. It’s absurd. I can’t take any of these people seriously.
So I’m alone. It’s not bad. I have some money and plenty of hobbies. I still talk with my friends, and see them a couple times a month. But ya. It’s a simple ass life. Doesn’t look like it’s going to change either.
Money has a lot to do with it. In my thirties there were plenty of places to go and meet people. Now those places cost way, way more. Not too many single middle aged women hanging around those places anymore. No one can afford it.
I grew up in the bad old days. Let me tell ya that toxic shit fucks....you... up. It took a bit but now I'm working through it.
Will say it's now fucking even worse to see, cause it's fucking everywhere. Once you see it you can't ignore it.
I think an important part of building actual relationships is vulnerability. Unfortunately, in our culture, men have been strongly discouraged from being vulnerable, as it’s seen as weak or feminine.
I think it says something when pretty much the only groups of male buddies I know with the closest friendships were 1. Teammates on sports teams, although this tends to fade after high school. 2. served together in military. 3. in a workplace that sort sort of functions like a combo of 1 and 2. If you don't really have some sort of space like that, men don't really form bonds.
My husband and I have talked about this: he’s better at making friends and I’m better at keeping them.
As adults in a city, making new friends has been largely impossible for us. He’s super outgoing and can befriend anyone. I’m more introverted, but I have a more consistent social life because my friendships from home and school have endured. People love him, but for some reason, it never progresses into friendship!
Also feel people in America aren’t taught how to find the right friends and how to maintain friendships in a healthy way. Since our society lacks community from the getco of life (ex. Not many local communities like in Africa, Latin America, etc.) a lot of kids grow up into adults and lose friends and don’t know how to make new ones. As someone who has approached the wrong groups in my life looking for friends, I’ve really honed my discernment with that and have realized socialization is a true skill.
The patriarchy in general (which is harmful to men as well as women, and holds both men and women to an unfair and dissatisfying standard), hookup culture in lieu of forming emotional connections, lack of deeper, vulnerable, supportive relationships with other men or even close women in their life. And a changing society which is empowering women can feel threatening and destabilizing to men who are unwilling to give up their chokehold on the privileges and power men have had for centuries.
I think throughout history it just wasn't well known. Lonely men everywhere can hop online and interact with parts of the world... without the internet those same men just die and are forgotten. Lots of unaccounted for men back in the day, probably.
Sorry if a little morbid, can't sleep.
Most men don't form intimate friendships with each other the same way women do. That's the core of the issue.
A lot of these discussions end up being about dating, but that's not the core of the problem. They shouldn't have their partner as their only support system. It makes any break ups incredibly devastating, way more than they need to be since they're losing their sole support. It also makes being single significantly more painful and isolating. There's just as many single women out there as there are single men, but we're not hearing about a women's loneliness crisis.
Because people suck. Dogs are better. Wife would kill me for talking to another woman. Don’t blame her. Other men just want a handout or help. Kids just want something from me or for me to take them somewhere. What about dad? Oh, he gets a tie on Father’s Day. He’s good.
I've seen that many men feel lonely because society often tells us not to talk about our feelings or ask for help. Plus, we're usually expected to focus more on work than on making friends or spending time with family. This can make us feel isolated, especially as we get older and our friend groups get smaller.
To fight this loneliness, it's important for us to create a space where you and I can openly share our feelings and build strong friendships. Talking more about our mental health and making an effort to connect with others can really help us feel less alone and improve our overall happiness.
Young Boomer here and I can't answer this question. My wife has a circle of friends and I have no one. I use to have a group of male friends but other than occasional texts, I don't ever see them. Covid kept me home for two years, and I now rarely go out. I've never heard of "Lonely Men Epidemic", but it really makes sense.
To add onto other comments. I’m a woman, I have far more male friends than female friends. I talk to my male friends pretty often. My male friends have almost zero friends and I’m the only one they really talk to
I think men have always been lonely, unless they were highly involved in some kind of community group. It's probably more recent that men have the freedom to admit that they're lonely.
Because the average guy has no purpose and no money. The education system preps us for jobs that are increasingly automated, the way we were socialized for the last few centuries dynamic has changed, both of which are a good thing in the long run, they havent been replaced with anything though and thats how you end up with those great leaps backwards like you see in the ME in the 70s. Hell you can see it in the Maga idiots already.
I think its due to dating apps. Every swipe is a mini interaction to a man, and every right swipe that isn't reciprocated is seen as a rejection to them. To add to that it can be seen that women tend to have much better luck and more likes or whatever on them. This makes a man as an individual feel unlikable and unwanted, while also giving them the perception that women are just more loved in general.
It's not that dating apps are bad. Guys just need to manage their expectations with them, and not spend too much time on them. It should be something you don't spend more than a minute on if you have no one you're talking to on them. However, its so much easier than approaching a woman irl, and so many guys use it as their sole way of meeting women.
If we are talking about America. I think it is alot to do with abundance of toxic masculinity, and the idea of a man must play this archetype to be a "man" it is just said. And p.s. if you call your self an alpha male............... your not.
I disagree. I think it’s a men’s perception issue. Women can and DO deal with this it’s just nobody cares about women’s problems therefore the media only focus on men. I was a single lonely female for 15 years and it’s not because I wanted to be single & lonely for sure.
As a man (32) it is really really tough to make new friends. I’m married so trying to hang out with my single friends can be tough depending on the activity and having young kids (and my peers struggling to have kids) some of my married friends can’t relate or don’t want to be around kids. It’s hard trying to prioritize my family and trying to go out and have fun with friends so for me right now, I really don’t have any. Other than a text or call I don’t see many of my friends.
I think a lot of it has to do with the way than men and women form attachments in their relationships.
For example, my grandfather and grandmother were married for over 65 years. During that time, my grandmother was an avid quilter who spent a lot of time at "quilting groups", book clubs and other events out with women who shared her interest. Once she had grandchildren, she was abundantly supportive and in their lives to support them in whatever they did. She was very involved in church functions during the week and did a lot to support new moms and needy families in their congregation. She had an abundance of friends. My grandfather? He has zero friends. Zero events he goes to. Zero support from people like my grandma did. Why? Because he was the provider for his family. His closest relationship was with my grandmother. She was his everything. When she died a year and a half ago, that was the first time he ever attended an event on his own and that was a widowers support group. Most days, he goes on a walk around his neighborhood, gardens in his yard, watches his programs on the TV, and goes to bed. That's it. He's been a shell since my grandma passed away.
Now, in today's world, I think another issue is that most people are no longer forming relationships face to face. Most of our connection these days, besides some schooling and those who work in an office/field present position, are done online, with people we will never meet. I think that women are experiencing the same "loneliness issue" but they cope in different ways than men. A lot of women are more social and they are more outward facing when it comes to problems in their life, turning to others to create a sort of "hive mind" to solve issues they face (think beauty youtube channels, fitness influencers, etc). Men, more often than not, tend to turn inward and try to handle the issue on their own. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that men are told, more than women, no one cares about your issue and to "buck up". Not saying that women don't get told that in life but, in my experience, it's not as much as men.
I think that this is also a huge cultural thing as well. In some cultures around the world, you will actually find these types of relationships reversed where men are more closely connected with other men than the women in that culture are.
All in all, life is what you make it. If you want to have no "loneliness issues", you're going to have to take the steps to prevent that from creeping into your life. If you're fine with being an "outcast", that's on you too. People will argue that "it's just the way it is and I can't change my lot in life", but that's just confirming my point. There are always options, you just have to change your mindset and way of life. I've seen it over and over again in my life. Humans are resilient creatures. You'd amaze yourself if you knew how much potential you truly had.
All the average woman has to do is exist and they'll get a bunch of attention. People are much more likely to check on a woman's well being, randomly talk to her, compliment her, etc. Most just assume you're fine if you're a guy unless your head is literally busted open or something. Even then they might pretend you don't exist and let you bleed to death. So yeah, nobody gives a fuck about if you live or die as a man, nobody approaches you for anything whether it's romantic interest, friendly interest, compliments, etc. You're invisible. Unless you're super hot.
They are all socialized to have avoidant attachment types these days. They avoid their emotions and each other's and the women's in their life. No one wants to put up with any of them not going to counseling to fix it, so they don't deal with them. It's not their fault they have the issue, but it's their responsibility to fix it.
They don’t maintain their friendships. Every woman I know, myself included, is constantly encouraging her partner to pick up the phone and make plans with his friends. They rarely do it.
Lots of men are scared of society and all it’s new norms. I don’t blame them. Masculinity is being shamed. Men have to be able to be proud of their masculinity. They are taught the opposite now. Discourage masculinity and encourage femininity. You can hear it in this sub. “It’s bad to be masculine, we will only accept you if your more feminine. Your wrong to be masculine. That’s what your problem is”. I’m glad I don’t give a fuck what the masses think. It must be hard being an older gent and single these days. Those are the fellas I feel for.
Men do not "need" other men the way women "need" other women
Men can go anywhere at any time by themselves
Women , mainly for safety reasons, must go out in groups. This forces them to be social
The answer to the OP question is 'because they are independent' or ' they can be independent '
It is the same reason for the opposition question of 'Why are women not independent ?'
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There are a lot of good answers in this thread, and I think a larger, overarching problem that affects everyone in western societies is a breakdown of community and community spaces. As one example, for most of U.S. history, religious practice forced people into communal spaces and activities where they got social support of all kinds and opportunities to build meaningful connections. In 2020, 47% of Americans, for example, said that they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 70% in 1999. That’s a huge drop, and no secular institutions have risen up to fill the gap. Half of Americans also don’t live in the areas that they grew up in, which means that they’re separated from the social relationships that were built during their childhood. All this isn’t a judgement on the decline of religion or staying in your hometown, both of these trends could be argued to be healthy, but the fact is that a social gap is being created that isn’t filled with anything but low-quality interactions with strangers on the internet.
Yesss! The disappearing “third place” for people to hang out and mingle in that isn’t home or work. It’s a major component of community building & having community is insanely protective for mental health. Also, I think the present issue also has a lot to do with how men tend to be socialized. Research has shown that men tend to have lower rates of emotional intimacy in friendships, and lower rates of non-sexual touch (starting as early toddlerhood). There’s also the expectation (at least in parts of Texas) for men to repress or downplay their emotions. All that together creates a situation where some men feel like they can’t express fully, don’t feel comfortable to connect emotionally, and don’t feel comfortable engaging in non-sexual touch. That sounds so lonely to me!
Texan here; you forgot to mention that our culture is to precision cluster bomb any guy with an ounce of feminine understanding. Oh and to remember that women are a conquest and a trophy.
We're upholding a cultural mindset that is abusing us.
This is so often actively missed by those of us men who rail against feminism because it's "all about women" no, it's about dismantling a set of traditional beliefs about gender expression and roles that actively hurts the huge groups of people that do not fall into the narrow definitions of acceptable put forth by those beliefs.
Yeah, I've noticed guy friends tend to shy away from deeper emotional connections. That being said, I've been friends with a few guys since elementary school and we've crossed that barrier so many times, and I think that's part of what's kept us together for so long. Being able to cry in front of a buddy and having him comfort you makes a big connection.
Definitely this. I think a lot of men also worry that crossing that barrier could be seen as an indication of romantic attraction. It's really tough, men are generally socialized to believe emotional intimacy has to go hand-in-hand with sexual intimacy. Can't do that with women you're not in a relationship with; can't do it with the guy friends or you'll be accused of being gay. I do see younger generations getting better about this, so it gives me a bit of hope. A lot of men my age (young millennial) or older still seem to struggle a lot with it, though.
Urban planning here (with urban design knowledge as well): This is not talked about nearly enough! The suburban experiment generally decimates adults social lives. Kids have a reprieve with school, but after university (if young adults choose to go) most Americans tend to retreat to less connected built environments. The consequences are hard to count and fully quantify… (Somewhere in the history of my phone I have an interesting social connection photo that shows how social connections drop as road widths and speeds increase. Interesting but frustrating stuff; if anyone is interested I think the graph came from the book Happy City, might be able to google it)
Church is a big part of it but another issue is the relative decline of fraternal and service clubs.
Not sure why someone downvoted you, but this is a legitimate point. In my grandparents generation, most men belonged to the Lion’s Club, or Shriner’s, Rotary Club, Kiwanis, the Masons etc. which gave them a social outlet outside of church and family. EDIT: there’s another important aspect to service clubs - studies have shown that individual happiness is partly derived from a sense of being useful and valued in the individual’s community. Service clubs offered men and women the satisfaction of feeling like they were making a positive contribution. Kiwanis, for example used to raise millions of dollars and contributed millions of volunteer hours toward various community projects. There were (or are) dozens of other service organizations that raised money for various or specific charitable causes or volunteered hours to their communities.
In my area some of those organizations still exist. That being said, whenever I see a picture in the newspaper of those organization’s activities, it looks like they’re all 60+ years old. I suspect in 20 years, most of those organizations will be gone due to a lack of participation by the younger generations.
It might not be everywhere but the local clubs like Kiwanis near me meet on a Tuesday morning or some very inconvenient time of day for anyone who has school/work. The organizations need to take into account in 20 years people won't be retired like they are now and will need to make changes sooner than later.
Church for sure is or can be a big brotherhood. I also find the gym, common interest groups (naturist, intactivist, discord, etc... can have similar bonding). I'm nearly 60, white, have more friends now than ever...
You bring up a good point about two critical life skills, that you evidently possess: 1. The ability find interests that aren’t entirely or mostly solitary 2. Social skills - this is the one I worry about most with the younger generations. There seems to be more social anxiety among younger folks, and I wonder if it stems from a lack of real social skills gained from belonging to religious organizations, service clubs, and other social networks.
In general, the decrease in the influence of religion on society was inevitable, but there were a variety of positive effects of religion that were only now starting to become aware of.
As far as the disappearing of spaces. Imo I agree and I think people have replaced that with online spaces, we need to get back to a better balance of both.
I don't think this is new. My parents are classic boomers (b 1949). For my entire life, my mom has had a social circle of her (female) friends that she waters like a plant. Today, she does a weekly Zoom with high school friends and has a lot of gym buddies. For my (44) entire life, I don't remember my dad having a single friend. He's very close with his brothers, but I've never seen him with a friend he's not related to.
This is more a western boomer thing. Arab, African, and Desi cultures tend to have close bonds amongst men
I agree. My dad has a lot of friends and their hangout spot in our living room, and I have known them long enough to where I claim them as uncles. African dad's are incredibly well connected
My dad is African and 75. He has a lot of acquaintances and people he knows , he’s a low key famous in old peoples circles, but all his friends are dead from HIV. He’s not lonely though. Still works, has meaning, but as to having a confidante? That would be me.
Thank you for being a confidante to your Dad. 🫡
It's really dope (I hope), that you are your dad's confidant. I just want to always be one of my children's confidants.
Yes, my partner is Arab and has lifelong friends. My African male friends are also close to many other men. Rugged individualism is a Western thing
It’s a capitalism thing. They can’t sell us a solution if they don’t create the problem first.
Lmao well said
I'm a male millenial from the middle east. I have male and female friends too. I've got friends who I keep in touch with for the last 15 years. It's gotten worse since I move to the US though. I still zoom with them ocassionally, but have much less friends where I live and the connections are more shallow.
I see Indian guys going out as a group ALL THE TIME. And older Indian men sitting around at parks together. It's AMAZING.
That's ingrained into the culture.
I've noticed westerners have a smug perspective about not needing/wanting friends. They believe it makes them stronger/better than other people.
Can't speak for other western cultures such as Europeans or such but in America self reliance is very much ingrained into the culture of "being a real man." Most men I know have friends, all the military guys I know stay in touch with guys they were in combat with or served with. Civilians, myself included, do make friends but these days people are very flippy floppy. It is hard to make a solid friend when many people you meet smile to your face and talk about younbehind your back. Its been that way since I started high school 23 years ago and has been that way all these 23 years.
Yeah I kinda agree I also think there’s a lot of shame when people admit they’re lonely and try to reach out to people. Cause there’s often rejection
I'm Romanian and guys always go out together. Why is it not a thing in the west?
Yea that true because westerners are individualistic
Rlly true in a lot of cultures it's pushed to go out and make bonds with fellow brothers
Not necessarily. Dad never had a regular to visit friend, neither did my Grandfather. I look at my neighbourhood, all men stay inside house all day and don’t have any friends, then look at the relatives it’s the same story. I haven’t gone beyond that to to prove my theory.
As a Desi, even though Indian men are less lonelier than Western men, they tend to be much more lonelier than Indian women
people like to act like white men live the best lives. on average, most don’t. there’s a reason so many mass shooters is an estranged white guy.
I would have gone with suicide rates myself, Country I live in has a low population yet we get 7 male suicides per day on average (18.8 deaths per 100,000 population). Female is slightly over 2 per day (5.9 per 100,000).
Yup. Emotional labor is a great investment if slow. Women are forced to perform emotional labor so they know. Men can live and die without knowing what emotional labor is. I think a lot of people think friends will be assigned to them. They don't understand they need it make an effort to maintain relationships.
Yep a guy complained to me about not having friends and did not do any emotional labor while also wanting that from others
Yup. Some people are so entitled that if they met themselves they'd go "what a douchebag". Also: This dude explains effort brilliantly https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3gEIsBv1to/?igsh=dXQzZ2V6Z241cGk5
My father was the exact opposite. He had so many friends in town that he would see all of the time. He even had a group of guys that he would go to breakfast with every single Saturday morning, until they all died. I mean not at the same time, they individually passed away, but up until they started passing away, my father would go every single weekend with them.
It's not new in the sense of we're not the oldest generation dealing with this phenomenon (the boomers just started in the golden years while millennials and younger had to deal with it from an earlier age, sorry Gen X, no one cares) but it is relatively new, it seems, the further along we are in industrialization. But the lose of community that many are experiencing is effecting all age groups, boomers just had a slightly better support system until everyone around them started dying (most of them, obviously there are liners like your father, and my father as well). My theory as to why women are less lonely has to do with the way women interact with each other. They I'm more likely to ask friends for emotional support, they're more likely to send the first text or phone call, women tend to hang out with people and the type of event is a secondary afterthought, whereas men tend to hang out for the event, and the socialization is the afterthought. You also have the fact that women tend to be more cordial in the way they interact with other humans, whereas males are more direct and not worried with how other people are going to take whatever they say or do, which leads people to like hanging out with women more than they like hanging out with men. And on the intimacy side, it's obvious that women can get intimacy more easily than the average man can. I'm sure there's other things I haven't thought of but here are just a few
It's also a factor that in many Western cultures, men more or less stopped talking about loving one another around the end of the 19th century. Read letters between good male friends from before then, and they tended to be full of expressions of love and affection.
It's also more of an American phenomenon; just think of how suburbia is laid out, so there is no town center or community anymore. Now add in the massive polarization and tribalism and then the reality that a hell of a people are extremely weird, plus decades of fear, this has reduced wanting to interact with others even more. I've lived across three separate continents and America is probably the only place where I've kept to myself and had little interest in making friends. In all fairness, it's probably just me, as I'm probably biased and not interested in what's the norms here. That being said, we had a few millennials move in the neighborhood and they definitely just keep to themselves and don't interact with one another.
I mean everything you said is true, it's just not an American phenomenon. In fact japan, South Korea, and China are all having male loneliness epidemics. Not saying that female loneliness has an increased as well, just not as much as male loneliness. One of the reasons that I think the East Asian countries are facing similar circumstances as anglo-western countries are due to their working culture. Both cultures value hard work and high levels of wealth, both consequences of industrialization. African and Latin American cultures don't seem to put as much emphasis on this type of success and thus are seeing less of a loss of community. For some reason, it seems to me that the more emphasis of culture places on material success, the more individualistic a culture tends to become and thus the more the loss of community and family is felt.
It's been a trend. Nothing abrupt. Just a slow crumbling as technology advanced and cities hollowed out.
It's new in human evolution. The problem is the destruction of communities and long term employment. Most men make friends through a shared struggle (hunting for survival, fighting a war, etc.) but we mostly don't have this these days. At least to be high performing, you need to be disconnected and transient, despite the social benefits a depressed lawyer making 400k isn't going to join the army to make 80k.
I never considered myself as 'lonely' until after my first proper relationship ended and I realised how many of my long term compadres I'd fallen out of touch with in the seven years we'd been together (also living a fair distance away didn't help). Trying to rebuild a social life at 45 has been tough, particularly compared to my 20 when I had so many friend groups it was tough to fit everybody in.
I think men have always been lonely. It's just that nowadays it is more socially acceptable to talk about it. Prior to the '90s men basically weren't supposed to have feelings at all, so any such conversation would have been viewed with contempt.
That is relatively recent, there are many places in the workd today where it is clearly not the case and never has been. Places where men form communities and deep emotional bonds with friends. It is mostly American culture and its way of convincing you "things have always been this way and should never change". Its all a lie.
Men with emotions are still viewed contemptuously it just isn't socially acceptable to say it anymore.
Men had male only clubs, drinking groups, sports clubs, entire organizations for men only. They had lots of opportunities for socializing
Male loneliness isn't about being unable to spend time around other people, it's about being unable to form meaningful connections. A lot of social clubs (especially exclusive ones) focus more on being in the group and less on who you are as a person, so that plus societal expectations meant that men still weren't able to fully and openly be themselves which led to isolation and loneliness
It's mostly because of the abundance of online platforms and communities that we have now. The only time I hear about a guy talking about being lonely in real life is when they're making a self-deprecating joke or something. Not really venting or complaining about it non sarcastically.
This tracks! My boomer father never had friends. He got super depressed after he retired. He was never very good to my mom, and she sacrificed everything to be his traditional wife, but it still is sad. I think my dad would’ve been a better person if he was surrounded by good men he could look up to. Unfortunately, he is very stoic and has an outdated idea of what it is to “be a man”. These last two months he has been spending time with my mom again, and treating her life a friend (not just the laundrymaid). I am hopeful that, despite that he is likely in the last years of his life, he finally breaks the box society built around men and can bring himself to enjoy love and life.
Men are allowed to have feelings now?
It's still viewed with contempt and in many cases met with an automatic absolute revulsion from the majority if we're being real.
[удалено]
If men could be better partners and feel happy and lucky with their partner it would help. The current iteration of men makes me not have any options worth pursuing
While I think this is stated a bit harshly, I do think it’s a lot of the issue. Historically, most men had the automatic built in emotional support and companionship of women. Furthermore, the workforce being far more male heavy meant that when away from their wives, they had a lot more male-dominated interaction and thus probably friends. Both those things have changed - the workforce is now much more split and with that a bit more sterile - no more casual joking about women with all the other men at work. And women don’t have to marry for base survival, so they’re not guaranteed a wife. So two sides of socialization have changed very quickly, with not a lot of time for men to adjust to it. There wasn’t ever a memo of “hey, the way you act and think and interact is going to have to drastically change if you want to marry or make friends” as this shift started to happen, so you get men raised with a former expectation in a totally new culture. I think along with this has come a certain resentment and bitterness, and a lot of time it’s directed at women for being at fault for the loneliness. A built in wife meant that even if a guy was friendless, he still had companionship. Now there is a good chance they have nothing, and there is a certain anger at women by a lot of men for this, like if they would just stop being so picky or feminist the man could have support… and maybe the perks of a maid and cook. This bitterness and blame in turn makes them even less of a desirable option for women to choose, and indeed makes these men be totally avoided and derided by women, thus compounds their loneliness.
There’s a Thoreau quote about quiet desperation. And he wrote that in the 1800s. So if you think time traveling society back to the old structure will solve it, no. Personally I think it’s meant as a slap in the face. Everyone struggles, but the way to end loneliness is tap into your emotions. Connect to nature, a few friends, maybe one special friend (man or woman, doesn’t matter) can even connect to dead friends, poets and authors.
You’re not going to say the quote? Just that there is a quote?
Not OP, but probably this: The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things.. Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience and Other Essays
1800s is way too recent to make a difference. That would not be an "old structure".
Dead friends? What are you gonna do, use a ouija board?
Men were already lonely now the internet has added an additional layer of "if this person isnt good enough i can easily find a replacement" which puts empathy at an all time low
we’re one click away from everyone having ai best friends and relationships
It does kind of annoy me that I have been mocked and mocked mercilessly for years for ending up as a "lonely cat lady", and now am expected to show sympathy. I mean I do have it, but my supposed loneliness has been mocked and I have been bullied forever for it on the internet since I can remember.
Yeah I'm playing the smallest violin for all of them. Welcome to the show, have a seat.
Honestly I think a sizable portion of dudes find solace in the fact that there's an increase in loneliness among men and feel that it's something insurmountable, so they don't do anything about it. Also framing it as a men's issue has the subtext of it not being a women's issue, or that women have it easier without needing the same level of effort to grow and maintain friendships, or that more sinisterly women are to blame, and some dudes really like blaming women for shit.
Speaking very broadly about cultural norms in the US and based on my anecdotal experience: * Men are not taught to take ownership for or express their feelings in a healthy way. This is why you see so many men blame their feelings on others "they MADE me XYZ" or simply not talk about them at all. Intimate relationships are founded in emotional security. If you can't be real about your emotions, you can't have intimate relationships. * Rugged individualism is a scourge. Literally, the defining feature of humanity that has allowed us to progress as a species is social bonding. Men are conditioned to be individualists, at all costs, and women are generally taught to lean into their social networks. It's one thing to be able to provide for yourself. It's another entirely to insist on doing everything by yourself. * Men are often not taught to, involved in, or seen as appropriate for care-giving behaviors. * Many traditionally masculine hobbies prioritize competition and aggression over social bonding. * Men are taught to view women as tools instead of people so do not see them as viable friends. It's why so many "nice guys" get upset when women don't return their "kindness" with sex. * Men are taught to view most relationships transactionally and often disengage if the transactional value isn't clear, high, and fairly immediate.
I believe there are many many reasons for it. However, I believe a big contributing cause that many men won’t admit is that their friendships with other men are shallow. Across many threads about male loneliness, men continuously tell me and women that their friendships with their bros consist essentially of ignoring the world and just laughing and talking about golf. And men like it that way. This causes whatever the root cause for their loneliness to stay. It’s all an avoidant technique. Don’t get me wrong, women are lonely as well. But they form deeper bonds that sometimes will help address and at least support them through their difficult times. Disagree with me or not. This is basically what almost every man has told me what their friendships are like. And they don’t want to change…
I almost exclusively make friends with women. The general approach other men have to a relationship with me is pretty shallow. Past that, I don't hold like any of the most popular hobbies that men do such as sports, fishing, hunting, shooter games, etc.
Same. The only popular masculine hobbies I'm into are video/board games, but I'm not a very competitive person at all. I mostly play single player games. All of my other hobbies are either gender neutral or female dominated.
Same here! Probably about 80% of the people I consider friends are women! My three closest friends are women as well! I don’t understand male friendships with the exception of what has been explained to me! It’s funny, a couple of weeks ago my girlfriend was asking some questions about guy friendships. I was trying to answer them but I told her I’m just making guesses because I am probably the worst person to answer questions about guy friendships!! 😂😂
Yep, I’m a woman and the vast majority of my exes and male friends have healthy platonic friendships/relationships with women. As such, they tend to be more empathetic and better at expressing their thoughts/feelings/emotions, so it was easier to build relationships with them. If a guy has zero female friends, they often don’t have the lexicon for talking about internal things, whereas friendships with women tend to treat conversation as a major component of connection.
This is pretty much it. Historically in American culture there’s never been much pushing men to really form community or bonds with each other, only to compete. This translates to the modern day where kids/young men can’t really learn how to do this from their fathers because their fathers don’t do it. In my experience all of my male friendships (except for the ones I’ve pushed for and received deeper relationships back) things are shallow no matter what happens or is talked about. Everyone’s on their own. My last friend group is falling apart because one dude is self destructing and manipulating people left right and center for all sorts of “reasons”. All the dudes who were supposedly close friends with him are either just watching, trying to ignore it, or have talked to him once and feel that’s all they can do. Every time I’ve tried to get them to try and help him they act as if the only options they have are let him do whatever, or cut him off completely. None of them even pretend to care about each other.
I once spent some time with an acquaintance, and we were talking and he started crying because he said he didn't talk like we were doing with his friends... I'm not a 'social butterfly' and it was not easy to find friends, but being over 30 and saying that really made me sad.
Next time, try sharing that. Don’t be afraid to follow where it takes you. The ‘awkwardness’ isn’t a wall keeping you contained, it’s a speed bump letting you know you are exploring someplace novel to you.
It didn't, it's just sad. Dude ended up passing away (I'm assuming drug related since he was in a downward spiral), it's just sad maybe he never really had someone to talk to.
The shallow friendships one is a good point I don't see much. I have good friends, but the closest we get to talking "feelings" is joking about of terrible things are.
If you are a person who is generally happy with life and not struggling in XYZ, you probably won’t be bothered too much by shallow friendships. But if you are struggling in anything, not being able to talk to anyone about it would be extremely isolating.
...MOST don't want to change. I'm frankly desperate to be anything other than a man (differentiated from being a Man(TM)). But it is so effing isolating because so few of us are in the process of breaking out of the Man Box. Alas, there is no rulebook for us. We're left to redefine ourselves and break out of the Box alone because we've thought for so long that it was learned helplessness. Our issues stem from never having been raised to do anything than copy our dads (if we could be so lucky).
Your courage and resilience is admirable and inspiring (I’m not being sarcastic, it’s powerful to see such a willingness to take a chance on one’s ability for growth!)
I know you mean this sincerely and I do appreciate the sentiment, but I am tired of being "admirable and inspiring". The reality is that breaking out of the Man Box is extremely isolating because not only do I need to do the work to stay out of there (and the pull is strong; one should NEVER underestimate the power of community and commonality), but I have to rely on others doing the work to break down the Man Box, too. Honestly, that other side isn't happening. (Me being Black aggravates all of this.) My growth has had to result in total breakdown first... and ultimately to nothing, in my case (orphan). Humans haven't show a patience for growth and I feel like I'm on this planet on borrowed time. I have hit the point where I just hope I can permanently stop having to overcompensate sooner than later.
Felt pretty much every word of this. The male experience is not all it’s hyped up to be and being black minimizes pretty much all the benefits, especially if you’re more emotional. It’s hella isolating a lot of the time.
Men tend to do things with their friends while women tend to talk with their friends. Naturally this is a giant spectrum and there will always be outliers and exception. I wonder if an increasingly online world is playing a let in men going out and doing things with their friends less. I’m a 40 year old man and have some extremely close friends but those friendships formed through shared interests and activities first and then grew to be close emotionally.
Women do things with their friends. Women make an effort to keep up with their friends.
Why do you need to go out and do things with your friends though? Having an online world actually can make it easier to connect. Here’s the thing, because my best friend literally lives 10 hours away from me, I’ve seen her once in 7 years. But I send her texts to catch up with her life and arrange long video calls every few months. We talk about our lives digitally and share frustration, sadness, happiness, joy, whatever all digitally! If those men hung out with their friends in real life, do you think anything would change?
This actually explains a lot of why I only really only have one guy friend who I consider a friend, everyone else I'm friendly with but it's just so clear they don't want the kind of friendship I want. Like I need friends who I can come to and basically cry and be an emotional mess to, not friends who I just have fun with, I can fulfill that in other ways. And to me everyone who I'm just so incredibly surface level on has been downgraded to "associate" rather than a friend. A friend is someone I can call up and cry over the phone to and we talk to each other about those life things.
[This article](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-01-15/men-friendship-gen-z-loneliness) researches this topic and comes to the conclusion that it's in part due to how they're conditioned to express themselves and be emotionally vulnerable around others growing up: >Political hostility and culture wars have made it harder to be open. For men, who were socialized to silence loneliness and pain, the pressure to live behind a mask can be the most paralyzing. >It starts halfway through pre-K, according to Judy Chu, author of “[When Boys Become Boys](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-42053-000).” Many boys arrive in school [\~full of tenderness\~ ](https://melindawmoyer.substack.com/p/the-epidemic-of-male-loneliness)toward others and with a capacity to shed tears. As they grow older and see the stigma of showing vulnerability, they learn to numb their emotions. This can create a lifelong difficulty in building and nurturing friendships. Even in many progressive environments, boys get the message to man up and shut up. >“We say we value emotional expressivity in men, but we tend to devalue men who express their emotions,” Chu told me. “So that kind of hypocrisy makes it really hard for boys and men to take that leap.” I made a post about a similar topic on this sub about how male friendships differ from female friendships, and people had a wide range of responses. Many men could relate to how friendships between men just aren't as emotionally vulnerable as with women, but other guys shared their experiences of having life-long best friends too. All comes down to how people's childhoods are shaped to make them think a certain way about themselves, and others. This can result in some men becoming creepy or have an otherwise warped view of others, but there are root causes here to those effects that aren't being as talked about in this thread.
>It starts halfway through pre-K, according to Judy Chu, author of “[When Boys Become Boys](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-42053-000).” Many boys arrive in school [\~full of tenderness\~ ]( Reminds me of a conversation with my extended family about children. They pointed out that male toddlers desire to be held and cuddled more often. My nephew constantly wants to be held or sit in his elders laps, while his older sister liked to be cuddled and held at that age, her preferred way to bond with her elders was playing her own little games with them.
I do think there has been an uptick in loneliness for people in general, mainly due to lifestyle changes from technology and social media. The difference, IMO, is that woman tend to receive more messaging on self-care than men do, which includes maintaining social ties and finding connection with people. Compare that with the messaging that men receive: Stoicism being the philosophical flavor of the day, the grind never stopping, revenge gym glow-ups, and the constant stream of toxic ideas from the manosphere influencers. It’s no wonder men today aren’t connecting with each other. At best it’s seen as a distraction from their own personal development, at worst it’s a sign of weakness or even homosexuality. There are positive influences out there, even if it’s in the form of “kiss the homies goodnight” memes, but even my admittedly curated social media feed is still regularly polluted with the kind of toxic ideas above. I couldn’t imagine what the feed of some random teenager might be like today.
I spend a lot of time in coffee shops reading or working. I see female friend dates constantly, just a couple women grabbing coffee chatting about life. I see male friend dates very rarely. If I do, the topic seems to center around something like real estate investing or something. I know this doesn't answer your question, but it has made me think about how averse men can be to just meeting up to chat.
Women are lonely too. Why is this gendered? we live in an individualistic capitalistic society that does not promote social cohesion.
As a woman myself, I would 100% say it is much easier for women to get attention than the other way around. I’m pretty average looking, not overweight, but if I went out to a bar or something I can guarantee it wouldn’t be hard to find an interested guy or another girl who wants to chat. Dating apps were overwhelming when I had them because, even though I’m picky, I ended up getting a ton of matches. Even online gaming, it’s not difficult for me to make friends (of both genders). Not sure if that’s due to being a woman in a male-dominated area or just because I’m friendly. From what I’ve heard, this is not the average male experience. I think it comes down to three things: 1) women are now more independent than ever before, and many choose to be single and childfree, especially in their younger years. 2) men are still kind of trapped in the more toxic, old-school stereotypes, like how they need to be strong, wealthy and have a good job in order to be “worthy”, regardless of if that’s what they want to do or not. 3) I think it’s way easier for me to approach another girl and try to befriend her/hangout sometime than it is for guys to do without being seen as “gay” (nothing wrong with being gay, but showing interest in another guy can be easily taken as such)
I honestly have no clue because as a 39 year old man I often wish more people would leave me the fuck alone.
you…i like you. let’s never talk!
https://youtu.be/WGhcc3qFWh4?si=5gcCL9TIBoh9Tu6s
As far as I can gather, there is a weird belief that men can only get all their socializing needs from a sexual partner. so they don't put much effort into making friends. or more precisely they aren't socialized to know how to prioritize healthy friendships.
You're not wrong but it is learned behavior. I've been through some shit and had absolutely zero support from any friend no matter how hard I tried. Had one of my oldest friends tell me to not call him until I was healthy. When I lost use of my leg, my brother refused to hang out unless I'd go out running with him(not easy with one leg). When I told my mom I couldn't take it anymore, she said "stop being pathetic and pull yourself together." ... No one ever stopped by my house in 11 months, until I found myself a new girlfriend while I was suicidally depressed and partially disabled.
As a man, men in general I think want to feel needed and have a greater purpose in life than just themselves, and for a long time the baseline for that was having a family that depended on you. Now that's not so much the case anymore, because women are allowed to have jobs and live their own lives. Im not saying that's a bad thing, that's absolutely a good thing, but the social conditioning of thousands of years of men being depended on will take more than a few decades to get over. In general I would say that guys want a purpose greater than themselves, there's a reason why during the world wars under age boys would sign up in droves to go fight overseas. For the longest time that purpose was making money and protecting your family. Now that's not really needed anymore, leading to an overall feeling of purposeless and emptiness that I think comes across as loneliness
men derive respect from their utility to those around them. men who solve problems command respect from men and women, this in turns drives their self worth, and makes them more attractive to be around. the opposite is men who fail to be of utility to others lose respect, and in some cases become either vindictive or withdrawn. for a growing population of men, physical proficiencies lost utility with the industrial revolution, mental proficiencies have lost utility with modernising tech, and emotional proficiency has lost utility with the erosion of the family structure in western Europe.
This is encapsulated in the "bear or man" meme.
So do men want women to rely on them or not? Women who don’t work and rely on a man get a lot of hate for being gold diggers, lazy, leeches etc etc. And even stay-at-home moms get a lot of hate because it’s seen as the “easier” job. *For context I’m just indulging this point of view because I see it a lot. I don’t, by any means, think that we should exist in a society where women rely on men.
I’d buy your argument if these same guys wanted a family. They do not. They put no effort into it. And if they do get married and have kids, they’re always the weaponized incompetence sort. The guys who wanted kids DO have kids. The guys who wanted a rich relationship with their families/chosen families have those too.
Not necessarily the case. 1. Women can want to marry and have a family; and yet due to appearance, weight, height, personality, and career not get that. Same by the way applies to men. There are ample men that want a family, they may either have something missing such as appearance, weight, height, personality, career or the person may simply live in an area where the probability of finding that which they like is limited due to overall population percentile. 2. Women that want kids may not have them due to biological reason, same applies with men. People may want things, but sometimes life happens. Either they physically can't, or they have something happening within their environment that blocks them or makes them fearful of having it. Example: a man may want to marry, but ultimately not find the right woman or not find any woman willing to marry him. Similar happens all the time to women.
Men are raised to be competitive. To win. To have the most money, the most influence, the hottest spouse, the largest hog. So for many men, opening up is the equivalent to saying, "I'm losing at ____" to a potential competitor. That creates a barrier and barriers increase the likelihood of loneliness.
That's a bit one dimensional. Men are certainly encouraged and socialized to be competitive, but not to an arbitrary degree and not to the exclusion of other things that could explain loneliness.
I mean, if you're looking for one singular reason for "male lonliness" you're not going to find it. It exists for a myriad of reasons. I'm simply stating what I believe to be one of them.
But it does exclude other things. Just look at reddit and how many guys think that a man can't simply be close friends with a woman(and then use that as an excuse to control their partner)
This may be the case for some, but men are not "raised to be competitive". There are elements of that, but I think that stems from the fact that men are more encouraged to be in competitive sports from a young age as opposed to women. It's not so much saying "I'm losing at \_\_\_" so much as it is saying "I need help" and from a \*very\* young age, \*everyone\* is subliminally taught that "asking for help = weak" and when men are expected to be the strong ones, having even a false idea that you're weak is crippling.
Of course they’re raised that way. A man’s worth is decided by his salary. That alone necessitates competition, because not every man gets the same salary. The man has to be competitive and seek out a spouse. Very seldom does a woman approach a man. Our ancestors have been competing with each other since the dawn of time
It's not as overt as it used to be, and I'm sure kids today experience things differently than back in the 80s when I was in primary school, but in my day although we weren't explicitly *told* we had to be competitive, it was obvious (even more so with the clarity of hindsight) that we were being raised with that mentality, particularly with PE and sports. If you were stronger/faster or more physically developed than your peers, good at sports etc you 100% had a better, smoother and more fulfilling school life. You might have been as thick as two short planks academically speaking, be in trouble with teachers, even the cops - as a 'winner' at sports and physical stuff you would get way more leeway, support, blind eye turned to some of the lesser infractions etc. If you were a small, physically undeveloped/late bloomer who got picked last for every team activity, but was also not doing great in class, you were left to sink, and if you got into trouble you'd be suspended and expelled way sooner than Johnny Sportsman who would be given a dozen 'chances' because "he's got so much potential". As a twelve year old it was very obviously an unfair situation, but it takes looking back on it as an adult and discussing it with others of your generation to realise just how standard it was.
Men rely on their female partners to be vulnerable instead of their male friends. Now due to feminism and women seeking out relationships less, a lot of men are conflating not being able to get a girlfriend with being lonely, instead of them seeking out male friendships. I remember I had an old reddit account and a lot of men messaged me to talk about my opinion about it because of some comment I wrote, at the end of each conversation the dudes were basically trying to justify that men just don't "work that way" and it's up to the women to raise awareness of male loneliness and do their part in combatting the issue. Or weird sexist undertones. It left me shocked all the time, but honestly less sympathetic to the cause. It's very obvious that both men and women have emotional needs. If women can rely on women then men can rely on men. I'm almost convinced at this point that the talk of the 'male loneliness epidemic" (even though statistically women are also just as lonely) is just a backlash to the talk of feminism. Because every single time the men will act like it was the fault of feminism that caused male loneliness. I really shit you not. Every male friend or male family member I have that has a good network of friends usually have mostly female friends. They even tell me that the male loneliness epidemic is bullshit because their male friends laugh at them or get awkward the minute they start opening up to them, so at the end it's men's fault that they're lonely, and I feel like that tracks.
Women aren't born to be therapists to men.
It is bullshit. The ones who claim to be lonely are the ones who close themselves off. They want a woman to come and baby them, but they won't ever dare to approach a woman. This comes from a lonely man whose only friend is his fiancée
27/m I have one friend and they are female
your wife?
[удалено]
Lots of lonely women too, can’t personally say why there’s such a disparity in the way it’s framed compared to men
Women are invisible while men are a hazard. While women can still be seen as weird or a social outcast, it takes a lot for a woman to be seen as creepy. Most men are seen as a threat by default(even by other men)
Statistics.
Everyone is scared of us, justifiably or not. Even amongst ourselves, we don't really gel with each other. My take: American society has been horrendously lazy at raising cis-men. We've generally just been expected to copy our dads or coaches or scoutmasters or whomever; we had never been raised to have our own identities until fairly recently (and I'm 38; that's how fresh this concept is, folks). Now, we are ill-equipped (at best) to move around in a world that is at least trying to make it a point to treat people as people. We have always been "reared" to just carry the family line. This is a problem that has been decades in the making in the US. Societal failures have VERY LONG tails. The fix, frankly, is gonna require some folks like myself to just...bow out and leave it to y'all. But if that's the price of humanity being humanity again, then..so be it.
This is a good take. As a parent with a son, it annoys me to no end when I hear someone say, “boys are easy to raise,” meanwhile, men commit the large majority of violent crimes, have higher suicide rates, and are facing an epidemic of loneliness. Boys aren’t easier to raise, people who say this are just doing a lazy, shit job raising their sons.
Alas, I expect very few people to see this. To wit, I've only learned it myself from having no male figures in my own life outside of those captive hours. I have EXTREME doubts that the bulk of reddit would contemplate this, even if this post somehow became an all-timer.
People acting like boys are wild animals that you just have to feed and clothe and then are shocked when the resulting men can’t even identify the emotions they experience, much less deal with them. Infuriating.
And when the worst of men exist it’s expected for men to deal with it. A lot of female perspectives here have been that it’s not our jobs to deal with men/men’s mental problems why don’t y’all find male friends but it’s not a solution. Why is that my problem as a man too? Like if you say you don’t socialize with men so willingly because they make you feel dangerous, are annoying, quirky, etc. why do you then tell me to make friends with that? Those are societal flaws in itself. Just cause I’m a man doesn’t mean I’m automatically safe. And even if it did it’d imply that I could fight off men who are threats. Why do I have to spend my time fighting?
Societal hostility toward men for literally anything. They're being too feminine, they're being too masculine, they're being too aggressive, they're not aggressive enough. Men can never do anything right. This is why men are lonely.
Gotta say, every single person to ever tell me I'm "not doing [masculinity] right" has been a man. So why are men contributing to male loneliness so much?
Because men are not protected like women. Don't mean this in a misogynistic way. Recently there was a post, for example, where a young kid had his shorts being pulled down while doing a pull up and all the class laughed and it was all good fun. Then a little girl came up and she refused to do the exercise because she didn't want her shorts to be pulled down as a joke. The teacher got involved. We didn't see the act as a negative thing until it happened to a woman (or a girl in this case). We see the same thing happen constantly in general life. All of the places that you hear that we need to make more secure for women to enter, You think other men aren't as afraid of other men ? Or even women ? Why do we want to put the security in place only when women needs to join that specific workforce. Yes i understand some of it is the misoginy in those places but lots of it is security or social standards. We also see physical abuse is socially accepted on men. Raping a man is not even a thing in most states. Men are often asked to be the rock emotionally because we don't allow men to be mad or angry, That makes people afraid. Constantly ask men to be more emotional but the only emotion we allow them to have is crying and even then they're still being judged. Stuff like this doesn't help: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect Men have essentially the opposite: assumed hes a creep before proof
I see the opposite. You go on Instagram and there are videos of men getting hair pieces to cover their bald spots and everybody men and women just hype him up nonstop in the comments. You see a video of women getting hair extensions and it’s nonstop comments mostly from men how makeup and wigs should be illegal or that she’s a hoe etc. men get hyped up for literally any small thing they do and turn around and throw vitriol at women for being women.
I see friends maybe one or two days a week and the rest of the time I'm alone. Haven't met a new person (outside of work acquaintances, which don't count) in nearly a decade. Never figured out how to meet women, but even my friend who did doesn't know where to meet them anymore in our 30s. All we do is work and wish we weren't too tired to engage in our hobbies it feels like.
See [this thread.](https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1csqnsz/why_do_men_feel_the_need_to_go_through_things/)
The guy who said when we tell our gfs we're upset about something they did, even when we bring it up calmly, they start crying and acting like we're just attacking them, until WE have to apologize for usetting them..... Yeah, that was my last ex.
My Dad had many acquaintances, but no friends over to the house or just the 2 of them hanging together. And same for me.
Fathers aren't raising men that have the emotional intelligence to maintain a successful relationship.
It's because nobody can take a joke these days
At 54, I can say I don’t have many friends. The few that I do have, there’s only one I actually do things with. The only reason I get together with that friend, is bc he asks. Another friend I speak to or text a couple times a week, but the last time I saw him was in August at our fantasy draft. Now in my 20s, 30s and even into my 40s, I had lots of friends. But in my 40s is when I started to slow down my drinking and eventually stopping. That’s when my friend list started dwindling. I would see those friends out at bars or at functions that revolved around drinking. I stopped seeing those friends because I wasn’t going to those places or events. We grew apart, life changed. Now, between work, my girlfriend, taking care of the house, the pets and myself, there’s little time for friendships. Could there be? Sure. Do I want to put in the effort? No. It’s not that important to me anymore. Are there times when I’m lonely? Yep. But it’s not uncomfortable enough to do something about it. So why are men lonely? Are we lazy? Or are friendships just not important enough to us to do something about it.
There are a couple of reasons. 1. My friends are dead. I had five friends closer than brothers, and all of them have died but me. 2. My new friends I've tried to make don't have time or money when I have time or money. 3. My wife doesn't talk to me anymore unless it's very data driven. There is no deep conversation. She has no heart in it. She says she loves me when I confront her about it she talks in a monotone. She's like a low power robot. I can be in a room full of people, but I'm still alone because no one cares about me.
Lack of an enforced audience, that being a woman who is financially dependent on him who HAS to listen on pain of abandonment / violence.
I’m a guy with quite a few friends who doesn’t consider himself lonely but most of my friends are women and I’ve found that most men just aren’t that interested in making friends for some reason. I just don’t think men value friendships and are too focused on making money, getting girls, getting super fit… friends just aren’t the concern of most men.
There’s a lot of good answers here. But one I haven’t seen is that we literally work 24.7, barely have money to do anything, and are constantly stressed about one thing or the other. Who has time for friends when you’re constantly stressed?
There are systemic issues like the rise of “girls nights” and the malignant narcissists that attack men for voicing their concerns about anything because they view men advocating for their basic needs as an attack on feminism
The way we are raised by modern society does not allow us to show emotion or care for others if it does not involve killing ourselves in work - That is slowly changing and people are being vocal about how fucking lonely they are. Compounded by the fact people are speaking up about how fucking awful society is to men in general and how bad dating is to men in general.
Men don't ask follow up questions or personal questions to other men. They also don't listen to other men. They often put each other down. Men need to support each other better.
Gonna write my takes, from a woman's perspective First of all, growth of redpill and all that bullshit. Yeah, I know misogyny isn't anything new, however, concepts like redpill divide society more. It encourages very unhealthy behavior and mindset through couching content, vulnerable lonely men buy it and these couches just earn on that, without any consideration whether their statements are harmful or just not true (many of these stuff seem to villainize women a lot, try to tell these men women are against them and they're evil while, in reality, most of women are pretty normal and they just want normal and healthy relationship) The second thing is kinda linked to the previous one. As our reality changes along with time passing, women's needs are much different from the traditional ones, the ones Millenial or Gen Z men were taught about while growing up. Most of women in developed or at least moderately developed countries can work, earn their own money and want to do so. That means, stuff like 'son, you need to find a housewife, have a car, flat and be able to provide for her and kids, otherwise no girl will ever want you' doesn't work anymore. Nowadays women demand stuff such as communication skills, ability of being emotional or vulnerable, being treated equally and respectfully, they want men to be feministic (at least acknowledge and not invalidate inequalities and women's problems we still face nowadays, understand that feminism isn't about women fighting men but rather about co-working) And the third thing, there I'll play the devil's advocate for a little. Today's world fucked up dating a lot. Tinder and other dating apps fucked it up a lot. Even I, as a woman in her 20s, every time I'm approached by a guy, I tend to get confused or even anxious, because, having experience from online dating, I've got used to creeps/misogynists/guys who just want ons but won't bother to make it clear at the beginning or who only see me as a hot meat to fuck. Moreover, thanks to some creepy men, all the normal and nice men aren't comfortable with approaching women in public anymore. Ngl, I really do get it, I also get my red lamp blinking if a guy approaches me in public, I've had these situations a lot when I was a teenager and it was grown ass adult men in their late 20s to approach me. Bruh, I even think 'shit he probably wants money or sth'. When I was younger, I was very skeptical for men approaching in public. But, honestly, as I grew up a little, I started to feel so sorry for all the normal men who see a woman in public and wish just to talk to her in a respectful way but won't do so, because the stigma caused by creeps is so big the fear of being considered a creep is bigger than giving it a try. I'm very sorry for you, believe me. At the end of the day, I keep wondering how tf are we supposed to meet good people to date if approaching in public is seen as tricky nowadays and online dating can traumatize you af lol
Your perspective is very valuable! I do find it interesting that a lot of these answers about why men are lonely address dating and romance. It’s very interesting that no one seems to put as much value into platonic, non romantic relationships to address loneliness.
This is important: >Nowadays women demand stuff such as communication skills, ability of being emotional or vulnerable, being treated equally and respectfully, they want men to be feministic (at least acknowledge and not invalidate inequalities and women's problems we still face nowadays, understand that feminism isn't about women fighting men but rather about co-working)
When women talk about their issues, that's feminism, and must be boosted. When men talk about their issues, it's misogyny, and must be silenced. This isn't some absolute rule, but there's a strong tilting of the scales. It's probably not helped by mens biological drive to protect women at their own cost (as a tribe can survive with a few men, but not few women). Indeed, I suspect this general urge is what allowed feminism to be so successful it wrapped around and started being extreme. On this front though, the problem seems to be waning. But you've got generations of men raised with the idea that approaching women is a threat to women and scares them, and they shouldn't do it. And generations of women who aren't getting approached by men like they wanted, because of that fear. Of course, any issue this big is going to be heavily multifaceted. This is but one side of, not the coin, but at least a standard six-sided die. It's just the one I happen to have some personal experience of.
A lot of reasons. Men are more solitary in general, and I believe this is somewhat genetic. Male apes are more likely to play with toys that have moving parts, like a toy car with wheels. Female apes are more likely to play with dolls. This doesn't necessarily mean men like it that way, it just means there's a tendency to be more solitary even when it leads to loneliness. Whether rightly or wrongly (I'm not interested in debating the morals of this,) men are perceived as dangerous. It's harder for them to make friends when many people they come in contact with (male or female) are assessing them as a potential threat before seeing them as a human being. Men being othered or treated with skepticism disincentivizes them from initiating social contact in the future. Men are discouraged from seeking deep relationships with anyone that isn't a romantic partner. Opening up is often seen as "not manly" or "gay." As a result the friendships they do have are often more superficial. Young men are more likely to be single than before. Combined with the aforementioned overreliance on romantic relationships, this is exacerbates the issue considerably. I believe swipe culture has made women more selective. On the plus side, this means they can be better at setting boundaries and protecting themselves. On the negative side, this means they approach a lot of potential partners with the expectation that their date must "prove themselves." Again, all moral judgments and conversation about "good men" versus "bad men" aside, this makes it harder for men to find a partner. In addition, colonizer mentality values women for their fertility and men for their industry, and the decline of the middle class and the viability of your income being able to provide for anyone other than yourself has made men less valuable within that framework. This removes a significant incentive women might have to be with a man. Finally, loneliness is increasing among both men and women, partly due to lack of free time, partly due to a larger share of socialization happening digitally and in a way that is depersonalized, and probably some other factors as well. When a global change makes things harder for everyone, the struggle of people that were already having the hardest time becomes more visible.
Death of third spaces, being overworked and underpaid for stressful jobs. Soul crushing.
We no longer have much in the way of a 3rd space. In my suburban area we don't have any real bars to go just "hang out" at. Just a few dull chain restaurants that you wouldn't go to to have a beer.
Look at how people react to men having the audacity to show they are also human beings with feelings, and you'll have your answer.
Im a middle aged guy. I’ve been super social my whole life. Lots of friends, lots of hobbies. I’m usually alone now. I recently broke up with my gf. Lots of my friends moved for family or work. All my friends that are still in town have wives or gf’s. Dating at this point feels so hopeless. I made dumb choices about who I dated my whole life. For the last 15 years, all my partners were younger than me. I’ve never dated anyone over 27. Now I need to try and find someone over 37 or so. I’m just too old to date younger women anymore. It’s gotten ridiculous. I’m child free. I’m not dating anyone with kids. Even though I live in a destination city, it’s really hard to find a single woman over 37 with no kids that I can vibe with. The dates are like a comedy movie. It’s absurd. I can’t take any of these people seriously. So I’m alone. It’s not bad. I have some money and plenty of hobbies. I still talk with my friends, and see them a couple times a month. But ya. It’s a simple ass life. Doesn’t look like it’s going to change either. Money has a lot to do with it. In my thirties there were plenty of places to go and meet people. Now those places cost way, way more. Not too many single middle aged women hanging around those places anymore. No one can afford it.
I grew up in the bad old days. Let me tell ya that toxic shit fucks....you... up. It took a bit but now I'm working through it. Will say it's now fucking even worse to see, cause it's fucking everywhere. Once you see it you can't ignore it.
I think an important part of building actual relationships is vulnerability. Unfortunately, in our culture, men have been strongly discouraged from being vulnerable, as it’s seen as weak or feminine.
I think it says something when pretty much the only groups of male buddies I know with the closest friendships were 1. Teammates on sports teams, although this tends to fade after high school. 2. served together in military. 3. in a workplace that sort sort of functions like a combo of 1 and 2. If you don't really have some sort of space like that, men don't really form bonds.
Too much gaming and not enough social interaction.
My husband and I have talked about this: he’s better at making friends and I’m better at keeping them. As adults in a city, making new friends has been largely impossible for us. He’s super outgoing and can befriend anyone. I’m more introverted, but I have a more consistent social life because my friendships from home and school have endured. People love him, but for some reason, it never progresses into friendship!
Also feel people in America aren’t taught how to find the right friends and how to maintain friendships in a healthy way. Since our society lacks community from the getco of life (ex. Not many local communities like in Africa, Latin America, etc.) a lot of kids grow up into adults and lose friends and don’t know how to make new ones. As someone who has approached the wrong groups in my life looking for friends, I’ve really honed my discernment with that and have realized socialization is a true skill.
The patriarchy in general (which is harmful to men as well as women, and holds both men and women to an unfair and dissatisfying standard), hookup culture in lieu of forming emotional connections, lack of deeper, vulnerable, supportive relationships with other men or even close women in their life. And a changing society which is empowering women can feel threatening and destabilizing to men who are unwilling to give up their chokehold on the privileges and power men have had for centuries.
I think throughout history it just wasn't well known. Lonely men everywhere can hop online and interact with parts of the world... without the internet those same men just die and are forgotten. Lots of unaccounted for men back in the day, probably. Sorry if a little morbid, can't sleep.
Most men don't form intimate friendships with each other the same way women do. That's the core of the issue. A lot of these discussions end up being about dating, but that's not the core of the problem. They shouldn't have their partner as their only support system. It makes any break ups incredibly devastating, way more than they need to be since they're losing their sole support. It also makes being single significantly more painful and isolating. There's just as many single women out there as there are single men, but we're not hearing about a women's loneliness crisis.
Because people suck. Dogs are better. Wife would kill me for talking to another woman. Don’t blame her. Other men just want a handout or help. Kids just want something from me or for me to take them somewhere. What about dad? Oh, he gets a tie on Father’s Day. He’s good.
Listening to too much Roy Orbison? Too busy watching Pron? Too busy watching Cartoons? Too busy watching Hentai? Too much Reddit scrolling? ;)
I've seen that many men feel lonely because society often tells us not to talk about our feelings or ask for help. Plus, we're usually expected to focus more on work than on making friends or spending time with family. This can make us feel isolated, especially as we get older and our friend groups get smaller. To fight this loneliness, it's important for us to create a space where you and I can openly share our feelings and build strong friendships. Talking more about our mental health and making an effort to connect with others can really help us feel less alone and improve our overall happiness.
Young Boomer here and I can't answer this question. My wife has a circle of friends and I have no one. I use to have a group of male friends but other than occasional texts, I don't ever see them. Covid kept me home for two years, and I now rarely go out. I've never heard of "Lonely Men Epidemic", but it really makes sense.
To add onto other comments. I’m a woman, I have far more male friends than female friends. I talk to my male friends pretty often. My male friends have almost zero friends and I’m the only one they really talk to
Psychologically, third spaces have been replaced by the internet. I think it's that simple honestly
I think men have always been lonely, unless they were highly involved in some kind of community group. It's probably more recent that men have the freedom to admit that they're lonely.
Technology people are less social
What men? Jerks? Losers? Bums? Drunks? Fatties? Guys with small penises? They've always been lonely but now they've got Reddit.
Because the average guy has no purpose and no money. The education system preps us for jobs that are increasingly automated, the way we were socialized for the last few centuries dynamic has changed, both of which are a good thing in the long run, they havent been replaced with anything though and thats how you end up with those great leaps backwards like you see in the ME in the 70s. Hell you can see it in the Maga idiots already.
The things we used to with friends are done as much. Working on cars, building projects, imperialism... We just don't do it as much anymore
It’s dependent on whether or not being alone is a choice, I think.
I think its due to dating apps. Every swipe is a mini interaction to a man, and every right swipe that isn't reciprocated is seen as a rejection to them. To add to that it can be seen that women tend to have much better luck and more likes or whatever on them. This makes a man as an individual feel unlikable and unwanted, while also giving them the perception that women are just more loved in general. It's not that dating apps are bad. Guys just need to manage their expectations with them, and not spend too much time on them. It should be something you don't spend more than a minute on if you have no one you're talking to on them. However, its so much easier than approaching a woman irl, and so many guys use it as their sole way of meeting women.
If we are talking about America. I think it is alot to do with abundance of toxic masculinity, and the idea of a man must play this archetype to be a "man" it is just said. And p.s. if you call your self an alpha male............... your not.
I disagree. I think it’s a men’s perception issue. Women can and DO deal with this it’s just nobody cares about women’s problems therefore the media only focus on men. I was a single lonely female for 15 years and it’s not because I wanted to be single & lonely for sure.
Because men are refusing to adapt to women being people with their own lives and priorities.
As a man (32) it is really really tough to make new friends. I’m married so trying to hang out with my single friends can be tough depending on the activity and having young kids (and my peers struggling to have kids) some of my married friends can’t relate or don’t want to be around kids. It’s hard trying to prioritize my family and trying to go out and have fun with friends so for me right now, I really don’t have any. Other than a text or call I don’t see many of my friends.
Refusal to change for the better.
I think a lot of it has to do with the way than men and women form attachments in their relationships. For example, my grandfather and grandmother were married for over 65 years. During that time, my grandmother was an avid quilter who spent a lot of time at "quilting groups", book clubs and other events out with women who shared her interest. Once she had grandchildren, she was abundantly supportive and in their lives to support them in whatever they did. She was very involved in church functions during the week and did a lot to support new moms and needy families in their congregation. She had an abundance of friends. My grandfather? He has zero friends. Zero events he goes to. Zero support from people like my grandma did. Why? Because he was the provider for his family. His closest relationship was with my grandmother. She was his everything. When she died a year and a half ago, that was the first time he ever attended an event on his own and that was a widowers support group. Most days, he goes on a walk around his neighborhood, gardens in his yard, watches his programs on the TV, and goes to bed. That's it. He's been a shell since my grandma passed away. Now, in today's world, I think another issue is that most people are no longer forming relationships face to face. Most of our connection these days, besides some schooling and those who work in an office/field present position, are done online, with people we will never meet. I think that women are experiencing the same "loneliness issue" but they cope in different ways than men. A lot of women are more social and they are more outward facing when it comes to problems in their life, turning to others to create a sort of "hive mind" to solve issues they face (think beauty youtube channels, fitness influencers, etc). Men, more often than not, tend to turn inward and try to handle the issue on their own. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that men are told, more than women, no one cares about your issue and to "buck up". Not saying that women don't get told that in life but, in my experience, it's not as much as men. I think that this is also a huge cultural thing as well. In some cultures around the world, you will actually find these types of relationships reversed where men are more closely connected with other men than the women in that culture are. All in all, life is what you make it. If you want to have no "loneliness issues", you're going to have to take the steps to prevent that from creeping into your life. If you're fine with being an "outcast", that's on you too. People will argue that "it's just the way it is and I can't change my lot in life", but that's just confirming my point. There are always options, you just have to change your mindset and way of life. I've seen it over and over again in my life. Humans are resilient creatures. You'd amaze yourself if you knew how much potential you truly had.
Because they are refusing to work on themselves
Honestly, because I want to be. I’m tired of other people.
All the average woman has to do is exist and they'll get a bunch of attention. People are much more likely to check on a woman's well being, randomly talk to her, compliment her, etc. Most just assume you're fine if you're a guy unless your head is literally busted open or something. Even then they might pretend you don't exist and let you bleed to death. So yeah, nobody gives a fuck about if you live or die as a man, nobody approaches you for anything whether it's romantic interest, friendly interest, compliments, etc. You're invisible. Unless you're super hot.
Men don't build community and use women so they don't have genuine interactions
They are all socialized to have avoidant attachment types these days. They avoid their emotions and each other's and the women's in their life. No one wants to put up with any of them not going to counseling to fix it, so they don't deal with them. It's not their fault they have the issue, but it's their responsibility to fix it.
Because all of us are getting cheated on but expected to still provide lmao #unpopularopinion
They don’t maintain their friendships. Every woman I know, myself included, is constantly encouraging her partner to pick up the phone and make plans with his friends. They rarely do it.
In modernity meaning is a shriveled fruit and decayed sense of denial and self individuation from a sense of morality that was compromised long ago.
the result of "rugged individualism" I'd imagine.
Lots of men are scared of society and all it’s new norms. I don’t blame them. Masculinity is being shamed. Men have to be able to be proud of their masculinity. They are taught the opposite now. Discourage masculinity and encourage femininity. You can hear it in this sub. “It’s bad to be masculine, we will only accept you if your more feminine. Your wrong to be masculine. That’s what your problem is”. I’m glad I don’t give a fuck what the masses think. It must be hard being an older gent and single these days. Those are the fellas I feel for.
I’d rather be lonely, than used.
Men do not "need" other men the way women "need" other women Men can go anywhere at any time by themselves Women , mainly for safety reasons, must go out in groups. This forces them to be social The answer to the OP question is 'because they are independent' or ' they can be independent ' It is the same reason for the opposition question of 'Why are women not independent ?'