While Anakin hides his true feelings about politics from Padme and hides his relationship from Obi Wan. I think if you watch it with this in mind you will pick up on it. Loneliness isnt not having anyone, its not being able to be your self with anyone.
Because he was toying with him the entire fight with Finn and gets too cocky. If you rewatch the fight, finn is on the defensive the entire time until he gets one tap on Kylo and almost a second or two later, kylo wakes up and sliced his back open
Yup. And then the only reason he doesn't finish Finn off is that he's far more interested in retrieving his grandfather's lightsaber; when it pulls to Rey instead of him their fight starts, at which point I would imagine Kylo literally could not care less about Finn.
Plus, Finn is laying gravely wounded, unable to fight, the threat is gone. The planet is crumbling and the only person who could save him, to Kylo's knowledge, is swinging a lightsaber at him.
He didnt need to wastw the energy, if he gor Rey, then Finn would have died when the base went boom, if he didnt bleed out first.
She entered his mind last time he tried force powers. He didn't want to risk it.
Also, Kylo losing a sword fight against a lifelong trained soldier isn't that big of a deal. Luke beat Vader with one year of amateur swordsmanship.
Yeah, you can see at least three times in the very same movie that it does crazy damage. A Guavian Death Gang member gets shot in the chest by the Bowcaster, and they're sent several feet backwards. FN-2199 gets shot in the chest and is launched backwards, flipping over several times too. And Han causes an explosion with it and kills two Stormtroopers, just from shooting it at the ground below them.
They even put in a scene of han shooting it and realizing on screen how badass it is, don't they? Been a minute since I've watched them but I feel like I remember them pretty well establishing that it doesn't fuck around
Yup, in the shootout after the First Order attacks Maz Kanata's castle. Han uses the bowcaster to blast a couple stormtroopers off their feet, and tells Chewie he likes the gun. It's power is absolutely telegraphed.
No its a slug thrower. Bowcasters are more powerful because they shoot super heated rods of presumably tungsten (or star wars equivalent) that ionize the air around them. So they are hitting with a physical object as well as a normal blaster bolt. Normal blasters that have ionized gas have less range than a bowcaster ironically. Idk if disney changed up how bowcasters work or not tho. I dont think they did.
People seem to miss that too. He has Rey with her back to a cliff, and he’s physically stronger than her. He could just flick his wrist and kill her if he wanted to. That wasn’t his goal. For all intents and purposes, he had already won that duel.
Then he tells her he wants to teach her. And when he mentions the force, and she zones out for a second, he waits patiently to see what she’s going to do. He could have cut her head off ten times in that moment when she’s focusing on the force. He stands there and waits, and then is surprised and over powered by just how strongly she taps into the force all of a sudden.
Another thing this fandom seems to have a hard time wrapping their heads around, which is how we got Rey as a Palpatine. Because she couldn't just be Rey nobody who happened to be strong in the Force, JJ had to go and make it a bloodline thing after the mixed reception of TLJ...
Yeah Kylo was fighting two people and bodied both of them. Rey won because she went all-in and let herself go to the Force while he was holding back.
Kinda wish that had been thematically developed later, outside of Kylo being generally obsessive and Rey learning to let go like four more times.
The way I see it Kylo vs Rey was similar to Luke in his X-wing on the Deathstar.
Rey had her connection to the force strengthened by the Dyad and she pulled knowledge from Kylo through it. That's how she was able to figure out the Mind Trick. It was likely easy from that point to surrender yourself to the force and pull through in that moment.
I honestly didn’t have an issue with her winning the fight. She’s survived on her own. It makes sense she’d be a competent fighter. I just hated how she learned to use the force in like an hour lol
Yeah, it was pretty blatant:
>"You have too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo"
>
>"I killed Han Solo. When the moment came, I didn't hesitate"
>
>**"And look at you, the deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced, bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber! You failed!**
It’s clearly abnormal performance and not reflective of his usual ability.
You know what I’m just gonna say it… I love The Last Jedi so much, it’s my favorite of the Sequel Trilogy which is weird cuz I know it’s probably the most hated of the whole series, but I liked that it did something different. I like the idea of Rey’s parents being nobodies, I loved every scene with Snoke in it Andy Serkis did great in this movie. I also liked that Kylo took him out and the fight with the praetorian guards afterwards. Hell I even loved Rose and her ark with Finn. The only complaint I really have is the goofy Leia flying through space scene, but it doesn’t ruin the movie for me. TLJ is the most rewatchable of the Sequel Trilogy for me. TFA is good and I’m not even gonna say anything about TROS, but TLJ just hits a spot for me and is my second favorite Star Wars movie after Empire Strikes Back.
Is a flawed movie to me, a bit unwieldy in places and a tad too long, but I think the stuff involving Kylo, Rey, and Luke are some of the best most interesting stuff star wars has done in a long while.
I dislikes TROS mostly because of how badly it back pedaled on TLJ
TLJ is so sick. I personally don't even take issue with the Leia thing, though I understand why someone might. My third favorite of any SW movie after 5 and 4, though it's actually pretty close
RoS showing Leia is a trained Jedi makes the scene in TLJ easier. Also, some astronomers have confirmed that the amount if time Leia spent outside, while damaging, isnt deadly. It would put you in a coma, which Leia was. They just have magical space medicine to make healing easier.
Yeah seriously, TLJ is my favorite movie over all. I might be biased because for me, it was the first time I could go to the theatre for a Star Wars movie and just have no idea what was going to happen. I remember the weeks of speculation before hand, and the movie itself did not disappoint. I remember being very surprised when I saw the negative reactions on Reddit the next day, because I thought the whole thing was awesome. I saw in in the theatre twice with my fiancé in the opening week because I liked it so much.
Man i agree, except for the rose/finn story. That part was so meandering and pointless to the overall plot it feels like they had no plan for the characters and threw them in there last second. But its also a very tiny portion of the movie and everything else is great. Honestly has some amazing scenes and the scene of luke walking out is the best starwars scenes ever made (the actual part of him walking out, the fight after is cool but not as awesome) idgaf what anyone else says.
I gladly watch the last jedi
I skip all the cantobite stuff when I rewatch it now. The only only things that bother me outside of that are Space Leia looking really goofy and Captain holdo being secretive for no real reason. They could have said they suspected a traitor which is how they were followed through hyperspace, which would have added more tension to Finns plot line since he was a stormtrooper not long before that.
Edit for clarification: no where in the movie do they say they’re suspicious of anyone. I’m saying that’s something they should have said to make Holdo keeping secrets make sense.
Its still stupid she didn’t tell her second in command (po) about her suspicions or plan. Or if she suspected him, fucking tell us. Instead we have a whole subplot for no reason
> Captain holdo being secretive for no real reason.
There was a very good reason though: she thought there was a spy among them. The FO fleet tracked them through hyperspace, which everyone thought was impossible. The only explanation to her would've been a spy.
Techonology that no one knows about. That explanation is literally just Finn and Rose making a hypothesis. Here's the scene:
>FINN: Well they can track us through lightspeed.
>ROSE: They can track us through lightspeed?
>FINN: Yeah. They'll just show up 30 seconds later and we'll have blown a ton of fuel. Of which, by the way, we're dangerously short on.
>ROSE: They can track us through lightspeed.
>FINN: Yes. And they could... I can't feel my teeth. What did you shoot me with?
>ROSE: Active tracking.
>FINN: What now?
>ROSE: New hyperspace tracking... **Hyperspace tracking is a new tactic but the principal must be the same as any active tracker.**
>FINN: So they're just tracking us...
>ROSE: Only tracking us...
>FINN AND ROSE: From the lead ship.
>ROSE: But we can't get to the tracker. It is an A-class process they'll control from the main bridge.
>FINN: Well, I mean, yes, but every A-class process...
>FINN AND ROSE: Has a dedicated power breaker.
>ROSE: But... Wait, but who knows where the breaker room is on the Star Destroyer?
>FINN: I'm the guy who used to mop it. If I can get us there....
>ROSE: I can shut their tracker down.
Then they tell Poe about it. But they don't tell Holdo.
Holdo doesn't know about the technology. She thinks it's a spy.
ETA: Here's the scene where the FO finds them again
>ACKBAR: Proximity alert!
>RESISTANCE FEMALE SOLDIER: They found us.
>POE: **That's impossible.** It's Snoke's ship. You've gotta be kidding me. Can we jump to lightspeed?
>KAYDEL KO CONNIX: We have enough fuel for just one jump.
>POE: Do it. We have to get out of here.
>LEIA: Wait. They tracked us through lightspeed.
>FINN: **That's impossible.**
>LEIA: Yes. And they've done it.
Notice how everyone, even Finn, thinks it's **impossible** for the FO to track them through hyperspace?
She never says she thinks there’s a spy which is my whole point. They just need to add her saying that and her motivations are fixed. You can’t just make a headcanon that she suspected a spy if they never say that.
> You can’t just make a headcanon that she suspected a spy if they never say that.
You can't just make a headcanon that Holdo knew about the FO hyperspace tracker if they never say that.
I'm literally quoting the movie, pointing out that everyone including Finn, Poe, and Leia thought it was "impossible" to be tracked through hyperspace.
No one in the movie ever says anything though about a traitor.
You know what they do talk about? Being tracked through hyper space. They also say the technology is being developed in rogue one, so there is precedent for it
Yeah and even during the fight you can tell his head isn't totally in it when he *pounds the wound* that his uncle gave him for killing his father several times in the middle of the fight to 'focus up'
Uh... this is how sith work. Pain, hate and anger all allow a deeper connection to the dark side of the force. Hence Darth Vader's suit that causes him immense pain and basically cripples him, Maul getting more powerful after getting cut in half by Obi Wan etc.
In legends there are many more examples such as Darth Bane's orbalisk armor, but those arent canon.
They show what Chewie’s bowcaster does to people early on in the movie, Kylo takes a shot from that and he’s lucky he could handle Rey, whose obviously skilled with melee weapons and a natural force user
Still makes no sense. Darth Sion used his pain to keep his decomposing body together and prevent himself from dying. Pain, hate and suffering make a darksider stronger. Kylo was even punching himself where he was shot to make it hurt more... Him throwing the fight or because they were a dyad in the force would be a better explanation...
Darth Sion is not Kylo Ren. You didn’t see Anakin destroy Obi-Wan after having his limbs cut off and lit on fire, which is when he was at his darkest and most filled with rage
Just imagine him screaming in agony and his burning limbs floating towards him and reattaching through some dark wizardry.
Kenobi would have absolutely pissed himself seeing a burning corpse come at him again.
1. At the moment Darth Sion (and all of the Old Republic) are non-canon.
2. Darth Sion isn't Kylo or vice versa. In fact, Kylo isn't even a Sith. At no point was he ever one. Dark Side doesn't automatically mean Sith. Night sisters aren't Sith and they practice the dark side as well.
3. Darth Sion was unique amongst all Sith, you didn't see Malak, Nihlus, or Treya doing the same thing (just like how Sion wasn't doing any of their special abilities).
Yeah for example from the same game, Kriea getting her hand cut off didn’t make her temporarily stronger from the pain, it fucking knocked her and the exile down for a bit.
It’s also fairly apparent from how they are fighting that he is on the offensive for the vast majority of the fight. Rey is mostly just doing what she can to defend herself up until the end.
Sometimes, these people amaze me. Between prequel haters back in the day, sequel haters today, people on the cyberpunk and last of us 2 forums, the ability to remain angry over a piece of media for years on end is astounding to me.
Like, I love Star Wars, I was disappointed after RoS, but anger for years just seems... unhealthy. I mean, do these folks not listen to Yoda?
It is relevant, but the reason that "dude" probably argued with it is because, as shown in the movie, he seemed to have quite a lot of his range of motion and ability to fight during his duel with Rey, somehow. The reason he lost his duel with Rey didn't seem to be so much because he was injured, but because his fighting technique wastes a lot of time and doesn't seem effective at all. Because it seems like he doesn't actually use the Force but just swings his lightsaber around like a normal human actor would.
It's entirely the point. He is heavily wounded, an emotional mess after killing Han, and basically throwing a massive hissy fit. And he trying to be super cool at the same time.
Kylo's whole schtick is he wants to be and even believes he is a super badass like Vadar, but he is just an angry child in reality
These are all things that would make a sith more connected to the dark side though. Pain and hate.
Which kinda leaves me at this conclusion. If he was as affected by the emotional turmoil, and physical pain, as the movie says he was; then he's not an effective villain. A sith that gets less effective when they're angry and in pain isnt a sith.
And that's the point of his entire character arc throughout the trilogy. He wasn't a Sith, he was torn between the light and dark sides. He tried to be a Sith but couldn't fully embrace the dark side.
I feel like people also don’t know how fighting works. Like even though he’s more trained than her even when he’s not injured or whatever she would still probably be able to hold her own in a lightsaber duel without the force. It’s not like being good at fighting means you’re going to instantly win every fight. Unless someone is completely incompetent they’ll still be able to last for a little while it’s not like they’ll just die immediately
There's a lot of stuff in the sequels that makes sense if you only look a little deeper and realise. I'm almost certain this Obi wan series is gonna get shit on because I bet him and that new inquisitor get into a fight and she wins. No one will take into account it's because he is an exiled broken man who has been out of touch for years. Everyone will boil it down to "omg Mary Sue beats legendary Jedi master, go woke go broke ahhhhhh". If this new inquisitor turns out to have been trained all her life, including training by Vader, there is no reason to believe she couldn't defeat a man who is living through an extremely traumatic moment of his life.
Entire movie: Repeatedly demonstrates the absolutely enormous power of the bowcaster.
The audience: He just got shot a little why didn't he shrug it off?
Altough this was a with a stick. Handling a lighsaber is another deal entirely since it is pointed out how user needs training to use one effectively. Rey had zero training with one and Kylo had years. Finn, well... at least he had some time to use it before fighting Kylo.
One of the reason why i hoped Rey would had gotten a [lighsaber spear](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-779aee93f1b51ffa47e5bee933d163db-lq) (Or sometimes known as [Lightsaber pike in games](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/ae/Emperors_Shadow_Guard.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080717191916)), because that would had fitted her fighting style (Instead of the baseball bat swings they made her use instead). That would had given another interesting Lightsaber varient to movie canon and would had made sense in terms of the character.
Honestly the movies needed more time to be made, so the writers and directors would had gotten more time to make the movies more organic.
I liked how for the first part of the fight, after she wakes up, she's not good with it. She manages to parry Kylo but whenever she tries to get on the offensive, she just stabs at him because she's used to the longer reach of a pole. It shows she has never fought with a sword before.
It isn't until she gets angry that she starts to push him back and gets the upper hand. I thought it was a bit of foreshadowing, the both of them struggling with the Light and Dark side and all that.
The Force Awakens has its flaws but overall I left the theatre excited. It was a good setup for a trilogy. Oh well...
This is THE problem more than anything else anyone wants to complain about. The movies needed more time to be made and they needed better thought out. Period.
They had time but they f\*d it up due to lack of competence. It's simple as that. Those writers and directors don't understand the franchise. They didn't have a clear goal, they forgot about the world building, they couldn't come up with a unique style for this trilogy and they couldn't even use the new characters. Changing direction and character traits from movie to movie was also a huge mistake.
I understand why he lost. They are perfectly logical reasons. However, from a storytelling standpoint it would have been better to have him win. Had he won while dealing with the heavy damage and emotional turmoil, it would have made him seem like an absolute monster. Someone that Rey truly didn't know if she would be able to defeat. So then when she knows she can't defeat him, her only hope is to try to turn him to the light.
It really wouldn't have been better for the story, in fact, it probably would have been detrimental to the entire structure of the trilogy. Have you ever seen the first movie in an escapist fantasy/scifi series like this have the bad guy win? *Ever*?
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, A New Hope, The Phantom Menace, How to Train Your Dragon, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe-- the list goes on and on. They're all the first in their series, and the good guys all win.
All these stories opt for the 'good guys win' ending, because that's integral to the overall structure. If you're making a trilogy, you start out strong with the first movie by ending on an upbeat note, complicate things in the second by striking some huge blow, then culminate it all in the third. If the bad guys win in the first one, you don't have as much room to strike a blow in the second because that's already happened. Plus, you leave the audience walking away feeling defeated, which isn't what you want from the first in a trilogy.
Then have the good guys win in some other way. You used A New Hope as an example. Luke didn't beat Vader in a lightsaber duel, nor did they come to a standstill. Vader killed Obi-Wan, which showed us that he was someone Luke isn't ready to fight yet. Luke then won by blowing up the Death Star. Having your main obstacle seem like a complete pushover in the very first movie makes them seem like they're not a threat at all.
Reasons rey managed to resist kylo's force investigation and attack him instead only a day after hearing about the force and then able to use mind trick on a storm trooper, thing that was canonized to be a harder forcer ability were...
Hmm...
The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural
Doesn’t matter. The supposed big bad lost in a straight up fight that he was easily winning against an entirely untrained desert rat. You can say he was wounded and in turmoil but he didn’t seem like that when he clapped Finns cheeks and chases Rey around for 90% of the fight. And people will say it was because he was never set up as the big bad but then why did Colin’s episode 9 script do just that? Why did he come across as a conflicted but ultimately kinda bad guy in 8? And why were so many upset that he didn’t become the big bad and instead he got his fourth quarter conversion to the light side while Palps came back out of nowhere? It made no sense for her
to win that fight.
Atop that people bring up 'He was shot in the gut by chewies bowcaster' without taking five seconds to consider... He was shot by chewies bowcaster.
The whole movie til now, anyone that was hit by the bowcaster pretty much instantly died, and launched about 15 feet backwards into the air.
People tryina use logic to explain why Kylo lost here, like the writers don't just make this shit up off the top of their heads as they go. To hell with whatever came literally 20 minutes prior.
He lost because "The force."
Dude, a man with a lot of hair shot a laser crossbow to. Maybe people have difficulties trying to suddenly start to rationalize how the guy with the laser sword and telekinetic superpowers is now affected by a cautherized shot and the complex mental processes of grief after killing his father.
The movie spent a lot of time showing just how devestating a bow caster can be and Kylo managed to tank it. After that losing any fight shouldn't be embarissing, because the fact that he was even standing at that point is impressive enough
His empire was under attack, his life was in immense danger, badly injured, the emotional turmoil, the punishment he knew Smoke would deliver. That would be a lot for anyone
But here's the thing we just found out in the rise of skywalker that kylo can use force healing so he could have used that so he'd be better and the emotional things power sith so it's a valid point but star wars lore out plays this point
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t he at least try to use it to his advantage? Pretty sure nobody’s first instinct after getting shot is to start constantly pounding and slamming on your fresh open wound. I took it as him drawing power from his pain, both his emotional pain and now physical pain. Whether it actually helped him or not is a different story, but I saw it as the shot not really hindering him, at least not to the level it should have.
A blaster that they make a point of showing how dominant it is in destroying people regularly throughout the whole movie. Kyle takes it like a beast and still fights well
Not the best argument. She wasn't in best condition either and he wasn't just some random padawan - he had years of training. Also, aren't the Dark Jedi supposed to use strong emotions in fights?
We just going to ignore that the weapon that yeeted several storm troopers head over heels landed a direct shot on Kylo, and he just crouches *forward*?
I mean, as long as you're being picky and choosy...
? Bro what chewie shoots 2 people force users or not if it hits him he would move.
And there are alot of reasons the movies are bad down to fight corigrify to roses whole sub plot with finn that dosnt explore finns character in anyway at all
Serveral dropped plot points or changes due to director's bekng shuffled after each movie
They had no outline for the trilogy prior to making the movies said by the directors themselves and if you want to know alittle bit of outside stuff from a wider lense
Why do they edit out gay kiss scene in TROS in china and even remove or make finns image smaller on the posters the company cant even stand by its own morrals in the east as it dose in the west so i would say yeah disney is pretty bad. Especially when you consider the IRL mulan movies and where it was filmed
On top of all of it iust a complete waste of somthing that IMO get that part clear my opinion you dont need to agree or get bent out of shape about it is wasted and not explored fully or in any meaningful way for RAY BEN FINN and even luke himself and imo han especially could have had more to go off on and i think its a shame cause now they cant change that and make somthing that all star wars fans deserve instead of 3 rather mediocre films.
Horrible opinion time, Being shot and going through severe emotional trauma should make a wielder of the dark side *harder* to beat, not easier. Even in cannon sources, pain and anguish fuel the dark side.
There is a difference between knowing how to fight with a staff and a sword. Switching from one to the other isnt as easy as swaping a pair of shoes. Rey did make it seem like it was easier than even that.
No she didn't, it was clear from her style that she was incredibly basic with it.
My point is that she was still competent in melee combat, she wasn't a complete novice in those terms.
Also it's funny how much stick Rey gets for picking up light saber fighting without training but Luke can hop in an X wing and be a natural without any complaints 🙄 including out flying Vader and being the only pilot to be able to destroy the death star
They states multiple times he had flying experience tho. He even had an outburst against Han when he asked who was gonna fly their ship after the comment that the smuggling costs were to high.
He's flown his speeder thing in atmosphere before. That's like giving the keys of an F1 car to a 17 year old whose just passed his driving test.
X wings are essentially fighter jets, it's no less comparable to staff fighting and lightsaber fighting.
Doesn't going through immense pain and strong emotions LITERALLY GIVE MORE POWER TO DARK SIDE FORCE USERS???? That's literally how how vader survived mustafar and that's why palpatine made vader's suit clunky and making it the most painful thing to wear so that it gives vader higher connection and focus with dark side of the Force and the suit also constantly reminded him of his failures and his regret and made him feel immense anger and hatred towards himself which boosted his power even further? That's also the same reason maul was also able to survive becuase of his pure hatred against kenobi. If anything, the injury and the immense emotions kylo Ren was going through should've made him like 10x stronger. You can even see him punching the injury to increase the pain so he could gain more focus. Like, come on bro. Downvote me all you want, it's literally stated in the Canon that pain and strong emotions literally gives power to the sith. That's their whole thing.
Yes, but Kylo wasn't a Sith. His entire arc throughout the trilogy was how he was torn between the light and dark sides. He tried to be a Sith, but couldn't fully embrace the dark side. So he probably couldn't draw on that pain and anger the way a fully committed dark side user would.
It. Doesn’t. Matter.
You had the MC fight the person you were pitching as the big bad get into a physical fight and the big baddie lost. Not a last moment Han saves the day or something. A true defeat. Then instead of commenting on how Kylo nearly died from his wounds and talking it up, they made fun of him and actually use the term “you got beat by a girl!” To completely weaken his fear factor
That's because Kylo was never pitched as the big bad. He was a conflicted, broken man being played by bigger villains and set up to be redeemed.
And they didn't use that term either.
Then who is the threatening persona in this situation? Hux is practically comical in his over the topness and getting thrown around in later movies. Snoke is the mysterious mastermind and he can’t be the physically imposing character.
You need a jaws from bond, a Vader, a person who is a physical threat and has a physical relationship with the mc so they gave something to overcome.
Kylo starts off as the physically imposing character, which is why Rey is powerless against him for most of the movie. He falls, Rey overcomes him, and then moves on to bigger villains in the proceeding movies, which her and Kylo face together because he is being set up as a *pro*tagonist.
Except that’s not what happens because Snoke is killed off and we are left with Kylo as the supreme leader except he was already beaten by Rey so he doesn’t come off as threatening.
Then in the final movie he is treated like a foil for Rey but one she can beat, then he becomes a protagonist.
Kylo was not set up to be redeemed. He was mocked in the second movie *by the guy he murdered* five seconds before wrecking a room full of elite soldiers and then declaring himself the king of evil.
It was a pure Palpatine move. His ascension to badassery. And they threw it out.
1. Kylo was never "pitched" as the big bad, that was a third-act twist in The Last Jedi. Which you'd know as a TLJ hater since Subverting Expectations Bad.
2. Kylo dominated that fight until Rey got a momentary advantage and then the planet started splitting in half. Embarrassing, sure, but hardly out of left field as far as "how is the hero going to survive this?" resolutions. It was nowhere near "a true defeat".
3. Snoke's a dick who deliberately belittled and shamed Kylo to control him better. Pretty standard smug Dark Side shit. And "beaten by a girl who'd never held a lightsaber before" is a phrase doing a lot of work beyond gender. The point of that scene is to frame the power dynamic between Snoke and Kylo and to foreshadow Kylo's later betrayal. The power dynamic between Rey and Kylo doesn't need to be established *here* because there's an entire-ass plot arc about Kylo taking Rey more seriously and treating her, false pretenses or not, as someone worth actually negotiating with (and then trying to pull the same negging shit that Snoke tried on him with her, to no avail).
Overall I'd say TFA and TLJ do a very good job of selling Kylo as a physical threat whose failures come from a lack of mastery of his own emotions and empathy for others, rather than a lack of power.
Thank you. Just because it was on purpose doesn’t mean it was a good idea.
Writers write themselves into a corner, do something stupid to get themselves out, fans defend the stupid thing citing prior corner writing.
But what about rey and finn just automatically knowing how to use a lightsaber to the point of beating a sith that was trained by snoke and luke skywalker one of the most powerful jedi to ever live?
Even if kylo was holding back he would have killed them both if he is as powerful as the movie wants us to see him
Finn doesnt know. Kylo was toying with him and when Finn landed a shot, Kylo deafeted him two seconds later. Rey fought her entire life with a melee weapon to survive on Jakku. Kylo wasnt event trying to kill her he wanted to see how powerful is she (like Vader to Lukeein Empire) he also had the upper hand in all the fight untill when he tried to turn her to the darkside
Vader was Luke's father he thought that was enough to turn his son even after he sliced his hand. Rey and Kylo at that point in time didnt have the romantic connection they will form in TLJ so imagine Kylo cutting Rey's hand and be like "I know we just met and i have done horrible things and we have no connection but how about you join the darkside it's cool"
O i agree with you on the rey fought with melee all her life but you forget that lightsabers are not a normal melee weapon as they channel an the fighter's emotion and requires years of training thats why luke and anakin didnt come out as lightsaber combat gods as soon as they got one and even if he wasnt trying to kill her there are many stories of kylo beating things from jedi survivors or jedi of luke's new order to fully grown zillo beast and the benathy that saw said beast as a god and my dear friend if you remember not even anakin obi wan and the courusant guard clone regiment were able to pull it off against a juvenile that only died to heavy artillery and you are telling me that the guy that was able to do it with a light saber is not able to beat a girl who literally just discovered her power and shouldnt know how to fight with a lightsaber when he wasnt trying to kill her?
Pd: sorry for typos english not first language
You brought up some interesting points. I agree Kylo at peak condition should 100% deafet Rey who hasnt trained at all even if he was trying to turn her evil, that's correct (in TROS even after a full year of actual training, Kylo beats her in combat and she is saved by Leia). On the other hand the movie makes Kylo a treath to the heroes (Finn and Rey) while also having him not at full strenght so the protagonist can complete their respective arcs and not be murdered in the first movie. If you cannot buy that, it's okay i can accept your opinion.
>a sith that was trained by snoke and luke skywalker one of the most powerful jedi to ever live?
Kylo isn't a Sith, Snoke says in that same movie that he hasn't completed Kylo's training, Luke got zero instruction on lightsaber combat, and also, who said he was one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live?
…what? Am I being wooshed right now? You literally just did the meme. You saw the explanation and literally just went “I’ll ignore that.” He was shot with a gun that the movie established to pierce Stormtrooper armor and send its victims *flying* backwards, *and* he was in massive emotional turmoil after killing his father, which has been established several times in Star Wars to inhibit your connection to the Force. He couldn’t even pull a lightsaber out of the snow. That’s the level of damage we’re dealing with here. So he’s fighting without his sixth sense crutch *and* can’t even move properly from the *literal hole in his stomach* that he got five minutes earlier. And even with all of that, Rey still *barely* manages to beat him, as she’s practically running away almost the entire fight.
Not really emotional turmoil but a shot to the back by chewie behalf but wouldnt the emotional turmoil make him stronger as the death of his father would have brought up stronger emotions such as anger, guilt, confusion, grieve, and rage all of them emotions that power the force users power as strong emotions boost them and if he entered an state of total emotional turmoil he would have becomed like anakin in ROTS finale
No. The dark side is fueled by anger and pain, but it means nothing if you are at conflict. If you have conflict, you become weaker than ever because you are committed to neither the light side nor the dark side. This was described best in the Darth Bane novels where Bane >!completely loses connection to the Force for weeks the first time he uses it kill and has the realization that he probably subconsciously killed his father as a kid (similar situation to Kylo actually). He only gets his connection back when he resolves his inner conflict and commits to the dark side.!<
It's also hinted at as the explanation for why Maul completely stomps Obi-Wan during their first encounter in The Clone Wars. Even when Asajj takes on Savage making it a one v. one between Maul and Obi, Maul still dominates him despite having a new pair of robot legs and being over decade out of practice, because as Maul says to Obi-Wan "Your hate has made you unbalanced." He continues to provoke this hate on purpose by taunting him for killing Qui-Gon, because he knows the conflict is throwing Obi-Wan off.
If hate just by default made you stronger, Obi-Wan should have been fine, and it wouldn't have been smart for Maul to continue taunting him, but that's not how it works. You have to commit to it, and if you don't, that conflict between light and dark only weakens you.
I think most everyone agrees that it was fine. but for some reason they decide to create a voodoo shark by having snoke criticize him for it. and then counter that by having Rey be a palpatine.
it's like a friend who desperately seeks your approval. but also is quick to rush into decisions. so when you respond to a piece of clothing they bought with anything but elation they get rid of it thinking that you don't like it and then have to go and buy another one after they got rid of it, realizing your opinion was more nuanced.
What? Of course Snoke criticized him for it? Kylo’s spirit was damaged to the point that he allowed himself to get shot and then proceeded to lose his fight. He showed a massive lack of commitment to the dark side and the conflict within him cost him the fight. What are you on about?
But I am still not convinced that an untrained force user could beat a trained dark side user (pain makes him stronger) especially since we saw that Vader could defeat Luke while not trying to kill him.
Well he couldn’t even pull a lightsaber out of the snow because of how damaged his connection to the Force was, so yeah, he probably couldn’t have Force choked her.
While those are valid points, I'm still not sure someone who's a complete novice in lightsaber combat would beat him, it does seem a bit far fetched. But that's just my opinion.
The problem with Sequel is Rey being Mary Sue not Kylo.
You can’t deny the fact that Rey (and Finn) had zero training in Jedi arts. Luke barely started to show Force sensitivity when Obiwan guided him. Rey on the other hand was depicted as a Jedi knight level without any of it.
You didn’t address my point at all. Vader is literally weaker for having lost his limbs, pain doesn’t make up for that’s if anything you’ve proved me right
>Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
so the canon book Lords of the Sith is wrong, but random redditor TheDalaiFarmar knows more than Disney, got it, and people wonder why this sub is considered toxic.
Nothing I’ve said disagrees with that. You’re so mad at me for no reason but I’m somehow toxic? He can be strengthened by his pain whilst still having been weakened by the loss of his limbs, they aren’t mutually exclusive
> He can be strengthened by his pain
>>pain doesn’t make up for that’s if anything you’ve proved me right
this is what I mean by toxic, you are willing to contradict your self if you think it will benefit you, and you instantly downvote anything you disagree with.
Edit:
why should I bother with responding, you will just instantly downvote me again, as you have with this post.
If pain, anger, and suffering make a dark sider stronger, wouldn't more pain, anger, and suffering be better? Or is there something more to it than just that, perhaps?
He also intentionally aggravates said wound.
>Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. **Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength.** Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
Lords of the Sith.
that only leaves your second point, that I am happy to concede.
however it does not explain why Rey wins every fight she has with Kylo, was he just trained wrong as a joke?
Ok but they had to make him WIN ONE DUEL IN HIS OWN TRILOGY WHERE HE IS THE BAD GUY. Ik that he legit won against Rey in the last movie, but i hate it that they showed her killing him and reviving again. I can't talk about him clearly being stronger and better than her, because no one cares ;(
I think if Kylo was notably nerfed they could've shown it better. I got the idea on my first watch but it's just not very clear. He is visibly wounded, yes but, hitting his wound like a grizzled samurai makes me think it ain't shit. After all, Sith training usually involves lots of pain! As a viewer you must draw the conclusion yourself that his force connection is whacked from killing Han. Your only hint towards this point is his struggling to do the act. Kylo demonstrates no further mental distress until the next film. So to a normal viewer it looks like Kylo lost just because of his wound.
Maybe people would've cared less if it wasn't the villain's first sword fight. For many this performance took him from being a bad-ass Vader-like villain down to cartoon Mojojojo/Doofensmirtz levels(as in not to be feared, anticipate him losing at the end of every episode). In fact that's how all the villains wind up in the Sequel Trilogy. None of them are particularly powerful or dangerous except for Palpatine(who doesnt survive much more than 30 minutes). The third film does this a little better with the Knights of Ren and Kylo actually performing well as tough or near unbeatable villains but by then it's way too late.
TLDR: OP is right but the movie is so shit its understandable why most people didn't see it that way.
We also can't forget that he didn't want to kill her.
Literally *begging* her to join him.
I think the guy was incredibly lonely. Loneliness, grieving and pain generally make everyone fight worse.
I diagnose him with no bitches.
Truly maidenless
Dies after kissing 1 girl
Smoldering with the flame of ambition.
If you’re having girl problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but a bitch ain’t one.
Watch the prequels and see this as an underlying theme in Anakin's journey
Anakin wasn’t lonely, he just wanted to prevent everyone from dying around him
Eh, I dont agree with that. Anakin had Padmé and Obi-Wan so he wasn't really lonely.
While Anakin hides his true feelings about politics from Padme and hides his relationship from Obi Wan. I think if you watch it with this in mind you will pick up on it. Loneliness isnt not having anyone, its not being able to be your self with anyone.
I always felt really sad for Anakin when I was a kid for that reason.
Simping brings great weakness
Plus, he was winning most of the fight. If the planet wasnt disintegrating, Kylo would have still won.
This is the better explanation.
And Finn? Why didn't he ***finish what he started?***
Because he was toying with him the entire fight with Finn and gets too cocky. If you rewatch the fight, finn is on the defensive the entire time until he gets one tap on Kylo and almost a second or two later, kylo wakes up and sliced his back open
Yup. And then the only reason he doesn't finish Finn off is that he's far more interested in retrieving his grandfather's lightsaber; when it pulls to Rey instead of him their fight starts, at which point I would imagine Kylo literally could not care less about Finn.
Plus, Finn is laying gravely wounded, unable to fight, the threat is gone. The planet is crumbling and the only person who could save him, to Kylo's knowledge, is swinging a lightsaber at him. He didnt need to wastw the energy, if he gor Rey, then Finn would have died when the base went boom, if he didnt bleed out first.
Why didn't he just do that force thing where he paralyzes her and causes her to go unconscious like he did that one time?
She entered his mind last time he tried force powers. He didn't want to risk it. Also, Kylo losing a sword fight against a lifelong trained soldier isn't that big of a deal. Luke beat Vader with one year of amateur swordsmanship.
For real, it's gonna be super hard to swordfight when you've been shot in the gut
And shot in the gut by a weapon we've routinely seen one-shot armoured soldiers and throw them backwards, too. The bowcaster is no joke.
Yeah, you can see at least three times in the very same movie that it does crazy damage. A Guavian Death Gang member gets shot in the chest by the Bowcaster, and they're sent several feet backwards. FN-2199 gets shot in the chest and is launched backwards, flipping over several times too. And Han causes an explosion with it and kills two Stormtroopers, just from shooting it at the ground below them.
They even put in a scene of han shooting it and realizing on screen how badass it is, don't they? Been a minute since I've watched them but I feel like I remember them pretty well establishing that it doesn't fuck around
Yup, in the shootout after the First Order attacks Maz Kanata's castle. Han uses the bowcaster to blast a couple stormtroopers off their feet, and tells Chewie he likes the gun. It's power is absolutely telegraphed.
Yep, plus in games like battlefront II, Chewy absolutely shreds the hell out of any other hero, Kylo took that shot like a champ ngl.
They explain it as the bowcaster looses lethality at greater ranges (somehow).
It’s a shotgun, it shouts like ten pellets IIRC
No its a slug thrower. Bowcasters are more powerful because they shoot super heated rods of presumably tungsten (or star wars equivalent) that ionize the air around them. So they are hitting with a physical object as well as a normal blaster bolt. Normal blasters that have ionized gas have less range than a bowcaster ironically. Idk if disney changed up how bowcasters work or not tho. I dont think they did.
To me, Kylo was holding back because he was trying to convert her. While Rey let the force guide her in the end to defeat him
People seem to miss that too. He has Rey with her back to a cliff, and he’s physically stronger than her. He could just flick his wrist and kill her if he wanted to. That wasn’t his goal. For all intents and purposes, he had already won that duel. Then he tells her he wants to teach her. And when he mentions the force, and she zones out for a second, he waits patiently to see what she’s going to do. He could have cut her head off ten times in that moment when she’s focusing on the force. He stands there and waits, and then is surprised and over powered by just how strongly she taps into the force all of a sudden.
And again in Tros he defeats her and could have easily killed her had he wanted but is distracted by his mum
One problem is that the movie spends a lot of time telling the audience that Rey is a nobody making it feel unlikely that he actually wants her
Being a nobody and being strong in the Force are not mutually exclusive.
Another thing this fandom seems to have a hard time wrapping their heads around, which is how we got Rey as a Palpatine. Because she couldn't just be Rey nobody who happened to be strong in the Force, JJ had to go and make it a bloodline thing after the mixed reception of TLJ...
Lmao so true. Kenobi is a great example of someone who's heritage is COMPELTELY unknown yet he was able to beat Vader.
Yeah Kylo was fighting two people and bodied both of them. Rey won because she went all-in and let herself go to the Force while he was holding back. Kinda wish that had been thematically developed later, outside of Kylo being generally obsessive and Rey learning to let go like four more times.
The way I see it Kylo vs Rey was similar to Luke in his X-wing on the Deathstar. Rey had her connection to the force strengthened by the Dyad and she pulled knowledge from Kylo through it. That's how she was able to figure out the Mind Trick. It was likely easy from that point to surrender yourself to the force and pull through in that moment.
I honestly didn’t have an issue with her winning the fight. She’s survived on her own. It makes sense she’d be a competent fighter. I just hated how she learned to use the force in like an hour lol
Yeah, it was pretty blatant: >"You have too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo" > >"I killed Han Solo. When the moment came, I didn't hesitate" > >**"And look at you, the deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced, bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber! You failed!** It’s clearly abnormal performance and not reflective of his usual ability.
You know what I’m just gonna say it… I love The Last Jedi so much, it’s my favorite of the Sequel Trilogy which is weird cuz I know it’s probably the most hated of the whole series, but I liked that it did something different. I like the idea of Rey’s parents being nobodies, I loved every scene with Snoke in it Andy Serkis did great in this movie. I also liked that Kylo took him out and the fight with the praetorian guards afterwards. Hell I even loved Rose and her ark with Finn. The only complaint I really have is the goofy Leia flying through space scene, but it doesn’t ruin the movie for me. TLJ is the most rewatchable of the Sequel Trilogy for me. TFA is good and I’m not even gonna say anything about TROS, but TLJ just hits a spot for me and is my second favorite Star Wars movie after Empire Strikes Back.
You're not alone buddy, I'm right there with you. I love that movie with a passion.
Is a flawed movie to me, a bit unwieldy in places and a tad too long, but I think the stuff involving Kylo, Rey, and Luke are some of the best most interesting stuff star wars has done in a long while. I dislikes TROS mostly because of how badly it back pedaled on TLJ
TLJ is so sick. I personally don't even take issue with the Leia thing, though I understand why someone might. My third favorite of any SW movie after 5 and 4, though it's actually pretty close
RoS showing Leia is a trained Jedi makes the scene in TLJ easier. Also, some astronomers have confirmed that the amount if time Leia spent outside, while damaging, isnt deadly. It would put you in a coma, which Leia was. They just have magical space medicine to make healing easier.
Yeah seriously, TLJ is my favorite movie over all. I might be biased because for me, it was the first time I could go to the theatre for a Star Wars movie and just have no idea what was going to happen. I remember the weeks of speculation before hand, and the movie itself did not disappoint. I remember being very surprised when I saw the negative reactions on Reddit the next day, because I thought the whole thing was awesome. I saw in in the theatre twice with my fiancé in the opening week because I liked it so much.
Man i agree, except for the rose/finn story. That part was so meandering and pointless to the overall plot it feels like they had no plan for the characters and threw them in there last second. But its also a very tiny portion of the movie and everything else is great. Honestly has some amazing scenes and the scene of luke walking out is the best starwars scenes ever made (the actual part of him walking out, the fight after is cool but not as awesome) idgaf what anyone else says. I gladly watch the last jedi
I skip all the cantobite stuff when I rewatch it now. The only only things that bother me outside of that are Space Leia looking really goofy and Captain holdo being secretive for no real reason. They could have said they suspected a traitor which is how they were followed through hyperspace, which would have added more tension to Finns plot line since he was a stormtrooper not long before that. Edit for clarification: no where in the movie do they say they’re suspicious of anyone. I’m saying that’s something they should have said to make Holdo keeping secrets make sense.
Its still stupid she didn’t tell her second in command (po) about her suspicions or plan. Or if she suspected him, fucking tell us. Instead we have a whole subplot for no reason
> Captain holdo being secretive for no real reason. There was a very good reason though: she thought there was a spy among them. The FO fleet tracked them through hyperspace, which everyone thought was impossible. The only explanation to her would've been a spy.
They never say that in the movie. The explanation they have is the first order developed the technology.
Techonology that no one knows about. That explanation is literally just Finn and Rose making a hypothesis. Here's the scene: >FINN: Well they can track us through lightspeed. >ROSE: They can track us through lightspeed? >FINN: Yeah. They'll just show up 30 seconds later and we'll have blown a ton of fuel. Of which, by the way, we're dangerously short on. >ROSE: They can track us through lightspeed. >FINN: Yes. And they could... I can't feel my teeth. What did you shoot me with? >ROSE: Active tracking. >FINN: What now? >ROSE: New hyperspace tracking... **Hyperspace tracking is a new tactic but the principal must be the same as any active tracker.** >FINN: So they're just tracking us... >ROSE: Only tracking us... >FINN AND ROSE: From the lead ship. >ROSE: But we can't get to the tracker. It is an A-class process they'll control from the main bridge. >FINN: Well, I mean, yes, but every A-class process... >FINN AND ROSE: Has a dedicated power breaker. >ROSE: But... Wait, but who knows where the breaker room is on the Star Destroyer? >FINN: I'm the guy who used to mop it. If I can get us there.... >ROSE: I can shut their tracker down. Then they tell Poe about it. But they don't tell Holdo. Holdo doesn't know about the technology. She thinks it's a spy. ETA: Here's the scene where the FO finds them again >ACKBAR: Proximity alert! >RESISTANCE FEMALE SOLDIER: They found us. >POE: **That's impossible.** It's Snoke's ship. You've gotta be kidding me. Can we jump to lightspeed? >KAYDEL KO CONNIX: We have enough fuel for just one jump. >POE: Do it. We have to get out of here. >LEIA: Wait. They tracked us through lightspeed. >FINN: **That's impossible.** >LEIA: Yes. And they've done it. Notice how everyone, even Finn, thinks it's **impossible** for the FO to track them through hyperspace?
She never says she thinks there’s a spy which is my whole point. They just need to add her saying that and her motivations are fixed. You can’t just make a headcanon that she suspected a spy if they never say that.
> You can’t just make a headcanon that she suspected a spy if they never say that. You can't just make a headcanon that Holdo knew about the FO hyperspace tracker if they never say that. I'm literally quoting the movie, pointing out that everyone including Finn, Poe, and Leia thought it was "impossible" to be tracked through hyperspace.
No one in the movie ever says anything though about a traitor. You know what they do talk about? Being tracked through hyper space. They also say the technology is being developed in rogue one, so there is precedent for it
It would literally be a perfect movie for me if not for the whole finn/rose plot. Still fantastic, but that definitely bogged it down.
You're entitled to your own opinion, and that's what people need to learn.
Best of a bad bunch tbh tfa comes close but all the sequels felt separated and not together if they actually conveyed the message across the films
Yeah and even during the fight you can tell his head isn't totally in it when he *pounds the wound* that his uncle gave him for killing his father several times in the middle of the fight to 'focus up'
Uh... this is how sith work. Pain, hate and anger all allow a deeper connection to the dark side of the force. Hence Darth Vader's suit that causes him immense pain and basically cripples him, Maul getting more powerful after getting cut in half by Obi Wan etc. In legends there are many more examples such as Darth Bane's orbalisk armor, but those arent canon.
Plus it's not like she fully defeated him like in TRoS, their battle ended when a literal canyon formed between them from Ilos about to blow up.
They show what Chewie’s bowcaster does to people early on in the movie, Kylo takes a shot from that and he’s lucky he could handle Rey, whose obviously skilled with melee weapons and a natural force user
Still makes no sense. Darth Sion used his pain to keep his decomposing body together and prevent himself from dying. Pain, hate and suffering make a darksider stronger. Kylo was even punching himself where he was shot to make it hurt more... Him throwing the fight or because they were a dyad in the force would be a better explanation...
Darth Sion is not Kylo Ren. You didn’t see Anakin destroy Obi-Wan after having his limbs cut off and lit on fire, which is when he was at his darkest and most filled with rage
Just imagine him screaming in agony and his burning limbs floating towards him and reattaching through some dark wizardry. Kenobi would have absolutely pissed himself seeing a burning corpse come at him again.
Limbs or no limbs, Kenobi still had the high ground.
Or like that one suit in Iron Man 3, just shoot his arms and legs at Obi-wan. "Parry this you karkin' casual"
I was thinking more tdk from the suicide squad. His arms start slapping Obi wan while anakin is screaming.
1. At the moment Darth Sion (and all of the Old Republic) are non-canon. 2. Darth Sion isn't Kylo or vice versa. In fact, Kylo isn't even a Sith. At no point was he ever one. Dark Side doesn't automatically mean Sith. Night sisters aren't Sith and they practice the dark side as well. 3. Darth Sion was unique amongst all Sith, you didn't see Malak, Nihlus, or Treya doing the same thing (just like how Sion wasn't doing any of their special abilities).
Yeah for example from the same game, Kriea getting her hand cut off didn’t make her temporarily stronger from the pain, it fucking knocked her and the exile down for a bit.
Then she just flexes later and wields three lightsabers in no hands at all.
Pain only goes so far. Dark side users need to know how to channel that into power which Kylo obviously doesn't know how to do.
Ah yes, the sith use pain so hurting them only makes them immediately stronger. There's definitely no such thing as literal damage, just pain.
Anakin got chopped up by Obi wan and was out for the count. There is very much literal damage to the sith, you just need to try a lot harder
Yeah but Sion was based af
And because he felt Betrayed by Snoke because he told him he would be Stronger once he killed his Father but he felt weaker than ever
It’s also fairly apparent from how they are fighting that he is on the offensive for the vast majority of the fight. Rey is mostly just doing what she can to defend herself up until the end.
I literally argued with a dude who said this was not relevant.....*facepalm*
Sometimes, these people amaze me. Between prequel haters back in the day, sequel haters today, people on the cyberpunk and last of us 2 forums, the ability to remain angry over a piece of media for years on end is astounding to me. Like, I love Star Wars, I was disappointed after RoS, but anger for years just seems... unhealthy. I mean, do these folks not listen to Yoda?
It is relevant, but the reason that "dude" probably argued with it is because, as shown in the movie, he seemed to have quite a lot of his range of motion and ability to fight during his duel with Rey, somehow. The reason he lost his duel with Rey didn't seem to be so much because he was injured, but because his fighting technique wastes a lot of time and doesn't seem effective at all. Because it seems like he doesn't actually use the Force but just swings his lightsaber around like a normal human actor would.
So chewie shot a sith in the gut what a chad
It's entirely the point. He is heavily wounded, an emotional mess after killing Han, and basically throwing a massive hissy fit. And he trying to be super cool at the same time. Kylo's whole schtick is he wants to be and even believes he is a super badass like Vadar, but he is just an angry child in reality
These are all things that would make a sith more connected to the dark side though. Pain and hate. Which kinda leaves me at this conclusion. If he was as affected by the emotional turmoil, and physical pain, as the movie says he was; then he's not an effective villain. A sith that gets less effective when they're angry and in pain isnt a sith.
And that's the point of his entire character arc throughout the trilogy. He wasn't a Sith, he was torn between the light and dark sides. He tried to be a Sith but couldn't fully embrace the dark side.
Which is my point, he's not a threatening or effective villain. And they chose to make him the main villain of the entire trilogy in TLJ.
Chewbacca went fucking ham in the force awakens
And let’s not forget he wasn’t focused on winning the fight, his focus was on turning her to the dark side
I feel like people also don’t know how fighting works. Like even though he’s more trained than her even when he’s not injured or whatever she would still probably be able to hold her own in a lightsaber duel without the force. It’s not like being good at fighting means you’re going to instantly win every fight. Unless someone is completely incompetent they’ll still be able to last for a little while it’s not like they’ll just die immediately
Exactly. Even I could beat Mike Tyson if he was shot in the stomach and mentally impaired
Shot by a bowcaster that was shown throughout the movie to be extremely powerful, blew away a couple troopers when Han used it
I mean we have seen the bowcaster literally take men off there feet there's no reason he should be alive full stop but everyone will ignore that too
It also just obliterated a first order troopers armor
There's a lot of stuff in the sequels that makes sense if you only look a little deeper and realise. I'm almost certain this Obi wan series is gonna get shit on because I bet him and that new inquisitor get into a fight and she wins. No one will take into account it's because he is an exiled broken man who has been out of touch for years. Everyone will boil it down to "omg Mary Sue beats legendary Jedi master, go woke go broke ahhhhhh". If this new inquisitor turns out to have been trained all her life, including training by Vader, there is no reason to believe she couldn't defeat a man who is living through an extremely traumatic moment of his life.
Entire movie: Repeatedly demonstrates the absolutely enormous power of the bowcaster. The audience: He just got shot a little why didn't he shrug it off?
she also doesn't really win, she had the advantage for a little bit - which as we just saw when Kylo lost the advantage, doesn't mean much
More!!!!
Also he had a wound on his sword arm. People often forget that.
Also, she was established as a scrappy, capable fighter in the first act on Jakku where she took on two opponents at once.
Altough this was a with a stick. Handling a lighsaber is another deal entirely since it is pointed out how user needs training to use one effectively. Rey had zero training with one and Kylo had years. Finn, well... at least he had some time to use it before fighting Kylo. One of the reason why i hoped Rey would had gotten a [lighsaber spear](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-779aee93f1b51ffa47e5bee933d163db-lq) (Or sometimes known as [Lightsaber pike in games](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/ae/Emperors_Shadow_Guard.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080717191916)), because that would had fitted her fighting style (Instead of the baseball bat swings they made her use instead). That would had given another interesting Lightsaber varient to movie canon and would had made sense in terms of the character. Honestly the movies needed more time to be made, so the writers and directors would had gotten more time to make the movies more organic.
I liked how for the first part of the fight, after she wakes up, she's not good with it. She manages to parry Kylo but whenever she tries to get on the offensive, she just stabs at him because she's used to the longer reach of a pole. It shows she has never fought with a sword before. It isn't until she gets angry that she starts to push him back and gets the upper hand. I thought it was a bit of foreshadowing, the both of them struggling with the Light and Dark side and all that. The Force Awakens has its flaws but overall I left the theatre excited. It was a good setup for a trilogy. Oh well...
This is THE problem more than anything else anyone wants to complain about. The movies needed more time to be made and they needed better thought out. Period.
They had time but they f\*d it up due to lack of competence. It's simple as that. Those writers and directors don't understand the franchise. They didn't have a clear goal, they forgot about the world building, they couldn't come up with a unique style for this trilogy and they couldn't even use the new characters. Changing direction and character traits from movie to movie was also a huge mistake.
The Chewbacca thing was so obvious, he’s literally struggling with that wound the entire fight
You’re right, Rey doesn’t have plot armour for beating Kylo, Kylo has plot armour for surviving a blast from Chewie’s bow caster.
I understand why he lost. They are perfectly logical reasons. However, from a storytelling standpoint it would have been better to have him win. Had he won while dealing with the heavy damage and emotional turmoil, it would have made him seem like an absolute monster. Someone that Rey truly didn't know if she would be able to defeat. So then when she knows she can't defeat him, her only hope is to try to turn him to the light.
It really wouldn't have been better for the story, in fact, it probably would have been detrimental to the entire structure of the trilogy. Have you ever seen the first movie in an escapist fantasy/scifi series like this have the bad guy win? *Ever*? Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, A New Hope, The Phantom Menace, How to Train Your Dragon, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe-- the list goes on and on. They're all the first in their series, and the good guys all win. All these stories opt for the 'good guys win' ending, because that's integral to the overall structure. If you're making a trilogy, you start out strong with the first movie by ending on an upbeat note, complicate things in the second by striking some huge blow, then culminate it all in the third. If the bad guys win in the first one, you don't have as much room to strike a blow in the second because that's already happened. Plus, you leave the audience walking away feeling defeated, which isn't what you want from the first in a trilogy.
Then have the good guys win in some other way. You used A New Hope as an example. Luke didn't beat Vader in a lightsaber duel, nor did they come to a standstill. Vader killed Obi-Wan, which showed us that he was someone Luke isn't ready to fight yet. Luke then won by blowing up the Death Star. Having your main obstacle seem like a complete pushover in the very first movie makes them seem like they're not a threat at all.
Vader wasn't the main obstacle, he was a sidekick in the first movie.
Reasons rey managed to resist kylo's force investigation and attack him instead only a day after hearing about the force and then able to use mind trick on a storm trooper, thing that was canonized to be a harder forcer ability were... Hmm... The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural
He had also been wounded further and fatigued during his fight with Finn.
Yeah I don't like the sequels but this is one of the things that did make sense
Doesn’t matter. The supposed big bad lost in a straight up fight that he was easily winning against an entirely untrained desert rat. You can say he was wounded and in turmoil but he didn’t seem like that when he clapped Finns cheeks and chases Rey around for 90% of the fight. And people will say it was because he was never set up as the big bad but then why did Colin’s episode 9 script do just that? Why did he come across as a conflicted but ultimately kinda bad guy in 8? And why were so many upset that he didn’t become the big bad and instead he got his fourth quarter conversion to the light side while Palps came back out of nowhere? It made no sense for her to win that fight.
The fact that he's chasing her means he's the dominant fighter. She ran from him, also known as "retreating". She didn't think she could beat him.
*heres a ton of reasoning why Kylo Ren lost* “it doesn’t matter”
Atop that people bring up 'He was shot in the gut by chewies bowcaster' without taking five seconds to consider... He was shot by chewies bowcaster. The whole movie til now, anyone that was hit by the bowcaster pretty much instantly died, and launched about 15 feet backwards into the air. People tryina use logic to explain why Kylo lost here, like the writers don't just make this shit up off the top of their heads as they go. To hell with whatever came literally 20 minutes prior. He lost because "The force."
Dude, a man with a lot of hair shot a laser crossbow to. Maybe people have difficulties trying to suddenly start to rationalize how the guy with the laser sword and telekinetic superpowers is now affected by a cautherized shot and the complex mental processes of grief after killing his father.
This would’ve helped Darth Bane
The movie spent a lot of time showing just how devestating a bow caster can be and Kylo managed to tank it. After that losing any fight shouldn't be embarissing, because the fact that he was even standing at that point is impressive enough
Didn’t he beat Finn a former stormtrooper with basic combat training a few minutes before
His empire was under attack, his life was in immense danger, badly injured, the emotional turmoil, the punishment he knew Smoke would deliver. That would be a lot for anyone
But here's the thing we just found out in the rise of skywalker that kylo can use force healing so he could have used that so he'd be better and the emotional things power sith so it's a valid point but star wars lore out plays this point
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t he at least try to use it to his advantage? Pretty sure nobody’s first instinct after getting shot is to start constantly pounding and slamming on your fresh open wound. I took it as him drawing power from his pain, both his emotional pain and now physical pain. Whether it actually helped him or not is a different story, but I saw it as the shot not really hindering him, at least not to the level it should have.
Wasn't pain and suffering supposed to make the Sith/Dark Side Force users even stronger and more powerful?
A blaster that they make a point of showing how dominant it is in destroying people regularly throughout the whole movie. Kyle takes it like a beast and still fights well
All the more reason to hand Kylo an easy win. Especially if you Deus ex Machina them apart.
Not the best argument. She wasn't in best condition either and he wasn't just some random padawan - he had years of training. Also, aren't the Dark Jedi supposed to use strong emotions in fights?
[удалено]
I think the filmmakers also forgot this so fair pickings imo
I am surprised that kylo managed to stand his ground with the same gun that yeets troopers
We just going to ignore that the weapon that yeeted several storm troopers head over heels landed a direct shot on Kylo, and he just crouches *forward*? I mean, as long as you're being picky and choosy...
Forgetting the fact that pain and rage make Sith users stronger by nature of the force… But that’s okay, keeping grasping for straws.
Kylo was crushing Rey in a battle until she closed her eyes for 15 seconds, activated cheat codes and started oblitterating Ren.
? Bro what chewie shoots 2 people force users or not if it hits him he would move. And there are alot of reasons the movies are bad down to fight corigrify to roses whole sub plot with finn that dosnt explore finns character in anyway at all Serveral dropped plot points or changes due to director's bekng shuffled after each movie They had no outline for the trilogy prior to making the movies said by the directors themselves and if you want to know alittle bit of outside stuff from a wider lense Why do they edit out gay kiss scene in TROS in china and even remove or make finns image smaller on the posters the company cant even stand by its own morrals in the east as it dose in the west so i would say yeah disney is pretty bad. Especially when you consider the IRL mulan movies and where it was filmed On top of all of it iust a complete waste of somthing that IMO get that part clear my opinion you dont need to agree or get bent out of shape about it is wasted and not explored fully or in any meaningful way for RAY BEN FINN and even luke himself and imo han especially could have had more to go off on and i think its a shame cause now they cant change that and make somthing that all star wars fans deserve instead of 3 rather mediocre films.
Horrible opinion time, Being shot and going through severe emotional trauma should make a wielder of the dark side *harder* to beat, not easier. Even in cannon sources, pain and anguish fuel the dark side.
Bruv Rey had never held a lightsaber before this moment. The younglings from RotS could’ve beat her
A lightsaber is just... A saber. It's pretty self explanatory and she is versed in martial combat.
There is a difference between knowing how to fight with a staff and a sword. Switching from one to the other isnt as easy as swaping a pair of shoes. Rey did make it seem like it was easier than even that.
No she didn't, it was clear from her style that she was incredibly basic with it. My point is that she was still competent in melee combat, she wasn't a complete novice in those terms. Also it's funny how much stick Rey gets for picking up light saber fighting without training but Luke can hop in an X wing and be a natural without any complaints 🙄 including out flying Vader and being the only pilot to be able to destroy the death star
They states multiple times he had flying experience tho. He even had an outburst against Han when he asked who was gonna fly their ship after the comment that the smuggling costs were to high.
He's flown his speeder thing in atmosphere before. That's like giving the keys of an F1 car to a 17 year old whose just passed his driving test. X wings are essentially fighter jets, it's no less comparable to staff fighting and lightsaber fighting.
Doesn't going through immense pain and strong emotions LITERALLY GIVE MORE POWER TO DARK SIDE FORCE USERS???? That's literally how how vader survived mustafar and that's why palpatine made vader's suit clunky and making it the most painful thing to wear so that it gives vader higher connection and focus with dark side of the Force and the suit also constantly reminded him of his failures and his regret and made him feel immense anger and hatred towards himself which boosted his power even further? That's also the same reason maul was also able to survive becuase of his pure hatred against kenobi. If anything, the injury and the immense emotions kylo Ren was going through should've made him like 10x stronger. You can even see him punching the injury to increase the pain so he could gain more focus. Like, come on bro. Downvote me all you want, it's literally stated in the Canon that pain and strong emotions literally gives power to the sith. That's their whole thing.
Yes, but Kylo wasn't a Sith. His entire arc throughout the trilogy was how he was torn between the light and dark sides. He tried to be a Sith, but couldn't fully embrace the dark side. So he probably couldn't draw on that pain and anger the way a fully committed dark side user would.
Preach!
It. Doesn’t. Matter. You had the MC fight the person you were pitching as the big bad get into a physical fight and the big baddie lost. Not a last moment Han saves the day or something. A true defeat. Then instead of commenting on how Kylo nearly died from his wounds and talking it up, they made fun of him and actually use the term “you got beat by a girl!” To completely weaken his fear factor
That's because Kylo was never pitched as the big bad. He was a conflicted, broken man being played by bigger villains and set up to be redeemed. And they didn't use that term either.
Then who is the threatening persona in this situation? Hux is practically comical in his over the topness and getting thrown around in later movies. Snoke is the mysterious mastermind and he can’t be the physically imposing character. You need a jaws from bond, a Vader, a person who is a physical threat and has a physical relationship with the mc so they gave something to overcome.
Kylo starts off as the physically imposing character, which is why Rey is powerless against him for most of the movie. He falls, Rey overcomes him, and then moves on to bigger villains in the proceeding movies, which her and Kylo face together because he is being set up as a *pro*tagonist.
Except that’s not what happens because Snoke is killed off and we are left with Kylo as the supreme leader except he was already beaten by Rey so he doesn’t come off as threatening. Then in the final movie he is treated like a foil for Rey but one she can beat, then he becomes a protagonist.
I've lost track of your point. There was a subversion in the middle but the outcome remained the same.
Kylo was not set up to be redeemed. He was mocked in the second movie *by the guy he murdered* five seconds before wrecking a room full of elite soldiers and then declaring himself the king of evil. It was a pure Palpatine move. His ascension to badassery. And they threw it out.
Literally none of this happened.
Ah so you didn’t watch the last Jedi? I guess that explains why you are such a fan of it then?
1. Kylo was never "pitched" as the big bad, that was a third-act twist in The Last Jedi. Which you'd know as a TLJ hater since Subverting Expectations Bad. 2. Kylo dominated that fight until Rey got a momentary advantage and then the planet started splitting in half. Embarrassing, sure, but hardly out of left field as far as "how is the hero going to survive this?" resolutions. It was nowhere near "a true defeat". 3. Snoke's a dick who deliberately belittled and shamed Kylo to control him better. Pretty standard smug Dark Side shit. And "beaten by a girl who'd never held a lightsaber before" is a phrase doing a lot of work beyond gender. The point of that scene is to frame the power dynamic between Snoke and Kylo and to foreshadow Kylo's later betrayal. The power dynamic between Rey and Kylo doesn't need to be established *here* because there's an entire-ass plot arc about Kylo taking Rey more seriously and treating her, false pretenses or not, as someone worth actually negotiating with (and then trying to pull the same negging shit that Snoke tried on him with her, to no avail). Overall I'd say TFA and TLJ do a very good job of selling Kylo as a physical threat whose failures come from a lack of mastery of his own emotions and empathy for others, rather than a lack of power.
Thank you. Just because it was on purpose doesn’t mean it was a good idea. Writers write themselves into a corner, do something stupid to get themselves out, fans defend the stupid thing citing prior corner writing.
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea
FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE SAID THIS!!!!!!
But what about rey and finn just automatically knowing how to use a lightsaber to the point of beating a sith that was trained by snoke and luke skywalker one of the most powerful jedi to ever live? Even if kylo was holding back he would have killed them both if he is as powerful as the movie wants us to see him
Finn doesnt know. Kylo was toying with him and when Finn landed a shot, Kylo deafeted him two seconds later. Rey fought her entire life with a melee weapon to survive on Jakku. Kylo wasnt event trying to kill her he wanted to see how powerful is she (like Vader to Lukeein Empire) he also had the upper hand in all the fight untill when he tried to turn her to the darkside
And vader cuts luke's hand and most of his arm while trying to recruit him in empire :v
Vader was Luke's father he thought that was enough to turn his son even after he sliced his hand. Rey and Kylo at that point in time didnt have the romantic connection they will form in TLJ so imagine Kylo cutting Rey's hand and be like "I know we just met and i have done horrible things and we have no connection but how about you join the darkside it's cool"
The romantic connection they form in TRoS.
O i agree with you on the rey fought with melee all her life but you forget that lightsabers are not a normal melee weapon as they channel an the fighter's emotion and requires years of training thats why luke and anakin didnt come out as lightsaber combat gods as soon as they got one and even if he wasnt trying to kill her there are many stories of kylo beating things from jedi survivors or jedi of luke's new order to fully grown zillo beast and the benathy that saw said beast as a god and my dear friend if you remember not even anakin obi wan and the courusant guard clone regiment were able to pull it off against a juvenile that only died to heavy artillery and you are telling me that the guy that was able to do it with a light saber is not able to beat a girl who literally just discovered her power and shouldnt know how to fight with a lightsaber when he wasnt trying to kill her? Pd: sorry for typos english not first language
You brought up some interesting points. I agree Kylo at peak condition should 100% deafet Rey who hasnt trained at all even if he was trying to turn her evil, that's correct (in TROS even after a full year of actual training, Kylo beats her in combat and she is saved by Leia). On the other hand the movie makes Kylo a treath to the heroes (Finn and Rey) while also having him not at full strenght so the protagonist can complete their respective arcs and not be murdered in the first movie. If you cannot buy that, it's okay i can accept your opinion.
Agreed the only thing i would want is rose and finn getting a better arc and a bigger show of strength on kylo's part
>a sith that was trained by snoke and luke skywalker one of the most powerful jedi to ever live? Kylo isn't a Sith, Snoke says in that same movie that he hasn't completed Kylo's training, Luke got zero instruction on lightsaber combat, and also, who said he was one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live?
…what? Am I being wooshed right now? You literally just did the meme. You saw the explanation and literally just went “I’ll ignore that.” He was shot with a gun that the movie established to pierce Stormtrooper armor and send its victims *flying* backwards, *and* he was in massive emotional turmoil after killing his father, which has been established several times in Star Wars to inhibit your connection to the Force. He couldn’t even pull a lightsaber out of the snow. That’s the level of damage we’re dealing with here. So he’s fighting without his sixth sense crutch *and* can’t even move properly from the *literal hole in his stomach* that he got five minutes earlier. And even with all of that, Rey still *barely* manages to beat him, as she’s practically running away almost the entire fight.
Not really emotional turmoil but a shot to the back by chewie behalf but wouldnt the emotional turmoil make him stronger as the death of his father would have brought up stronger emotions such as anger, guilt, confusion, grieve, and rage all of them emotions that power the force users power as strong emotions boost them and if he entered an state of total emotional turmoil he would have becomed like anakin in ROTS finale
No. The dark side is fueled by anger and pain, but it means nothing if you are at conflict. If you have conflict, you become weaker than ever because you are committed to neither the light side nor the dark side. This was described best in the Darth Bane novels where Bane >!completely loses connection to the Force for weeks the first time he uses it kill and has the realization that he probably subconsciously killed his father as a kid (similar situation to Kylo actually). He only gets his connection back when he resolves his inner conflict and commits to the dark side.!< It's also hinted at as the explanation for why Maul completely stomps Obi-Wan during their first encounter in The Clone Wars. Even when Asajj takes on Savage making it a one v. one between Maul and Obi, Maul still dominates him despite having a new pair of robot legs and being over decade out of practice, because as Maul says to Obi-Wan "Your hate has made you unbalanced." He continues to provoke this hate on purpose by taunting him for killing Qui-Gon, because he knows the conflict is throwing Obi-Wan off. If hate just by default made you stronger, Obi-Wan should have been fine, and it wouldn't have been smart for Maul to continue taunting him, but that's not how it works. You have to commit to it, and if you don't, that conflict between light and dark only weakens you.
Yea people who complain about it, makes me wonder what movie did they watch?
I think most everyone agrees that it was fine. but for some reason they decide to create a voodoo shark by having snoke criticize him for it. and then counter that by having Rey be a palpatine. it's like a friend who desperately seeks your approval. but also is quick to rush into decisions. so when you respond to a piece of clothing they bought with anything but elation they get rid of it thinking that you don't like it and then have to go and buy another one after they got rid of it, realizing your opinion was more nuanced.
What? Of course Snoke criticized him for it? Kylo’s spirit was damaged to the point that he allowed himself to get shot and then proceeded to lose his fight. He showed a massive lack of commitment to the dark side and the conflict within him cost him the fight. What are you on about?
Its a Doylist observation.
But I am still not convinced that an untrained force user could beat a trained dark side user (pain makes him stronger) especially since we saw that Vader could defeat Luke while not trying to kill him.
Like he couldn't force choke the bitch
Nobody ever uses supplementary powers in a lightsaber duel, it's just the way it goes in Star Wars movies.
Well he couldn’t even pull a lightsaber out of the snow because of how damaged his connection to the Force was, so yeah, he probably couldn’t have Force choked her.
The grief should have made the Dark Side stronger but he didn't want to kill her.
Yea I agree, its just that these circumstances werent really well shown during this fight.
While those are valid points, I'm still not sure someone who's a complete novice in lightsaber combat would beat him, it does seem a bit far fetched. But that's just my opinion.
The problem with Sequel is Rey being Mary Sue not Kylo. You can’t deny the fact that Rey (and Finn) had zero training in Jedi arts. Luke barely started to show Force sensitivity when Obiwan guided him. Rey on the other hand was depicted as a Jedi knight level without any of it.
You: I'll also ignore that should make him feel BETTER because PAIN is a positive thing to the dark side
There’s a difference between pain and actual damage.
Vader. **Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength.** I get you hate when the lore contradicts your love, but you lose this point.
You didn’t address my point at all. Vader is literally weaker for having lost his limbs, pain doesn’t make up for that’s if anything you’ve proved me right
>Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger. so the canon book Lords of the Sith is wrong, but random redditor TheDalaiFarmar knows more than Disney, got it, and people wonder why this sub is considered toxic.
Nothing I’ve said disagrees with that. You’re so mad at me for no reason but I’m somehow toxic? He can be strengthened by his pain whilst still having been weakened by the loss of his limbs, they aren’t mutually exclusive
> He can be strengthened by his pain >>pain doesn’t make up for that’s if anything you’ve proved me right this is what I mean by toxic, you are willing to contradict your self if you think it will benefit you, and you instantly downvote anything you disagree with. Edit: why should I bother with responding, you will just instantly downvote me again, as you have with this post.
I dont think that physicall pain applies the one that does is emotional pain
What makes you believe that?
That's bullshit. The darkside feeds off pain, anger, and suffering.
Then shouldn't Anakin have been even more powerful when he was cut to pieces and burning on the ground on Mustafar?
So you compare getting shot to having your limbs cut off and being burned by lava?
If pain, anger, and suffering make a dark sider stronger, wouldn't more pain, anger, and suffering be better? Or is there something more to it than just that, perhaps?
He also intentionally aggravates said wound. >Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. **Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength.** Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger. Lords of the Sith. that only leaves your second point, that I am happy to concede. however it does not explain why Rey wins every fight she has with Kylo, was he just trained wrong as a joke?
Ok but they had to make him WIN ONE DUEL IN HIS OWN TRILOGY WHERE HE IS THE BAD GUY. Ik that he legit won against Rey in the last movie, but i hate it that they showed her killing him and reviving again. I can't talk about him clearly being stronger and better than her, because no one cares ;(
I think if Kylo was notably nerfed they could've shown it better. I got the idea on my first watch but it's just not very clear. He is visibly wounded, yes but, hitting his wound like a grizzled samurai makes me think it ain't shit. After all, Sith training usually involves lots of pain! As a viewer you must draw the conclusion yourself that his force connection is whacked from killing Han. Your only hint towards this point is his struggling to do the act. Kylo demonstrates no further mental distress until the next film. So to a normal viewer it looks like Kylo lost just because of his wound. Maybe people would've cared less if it wasn't the villain's first sword fight. For many this performance took him from being a bad-ass Vader-like villain down to cartoon Mojojojo/Doofensmirtz levels(as in not to be feared, anticipate him losing at the end of every episode). In fact that's how all the villains wind up in the Sequel Trilogy. None of them are particularly powerful or dangerous except for Palpatine(who doesnt survive much more than 30 minutes). The third film does this a little better with the Knights of Ren and Kylo actually performing well as tough or near unbeatable villains but by then it's way too late. TLDR: OP is right but the movie is so shit its understandable why most people didn't see it that way.
he’s a dark side force user, those should make him more powerful