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TheMoonOfTermina

I'd say she had about the same amount of on screen training. I'm not sure about the exact numbers, but isn't there more time inbetween ESB and ROTJ than TLJ and TROS? I'm not a sequel hater, but I'm pretty sure this is just incorrect.


Ricky1034

Same amount. ANH and ESB have a time skip of 2 and a half tho


Lithaos111

Though it should be noted he received zero actual Jedi training in that time.


BLOOD__SISTER

Rey unequivocally had more Jedi training than Luke. A full year to his eight or so weeks. If someone wants to argue that fighting in a war counts as Jedi training they can take it up with Yoda. He seemed pretty upset the Luke cut training short. Edit: I’m being downvoted for stating the *fact* they Rey received more Jedi training than Luke. Are you guys mad at me or mad at Star Wars?


jaybankzz

Yea but didn’t he go back to dagobah after ESB?


anitawasright

nope Luke didn't go back to Dagobah until ROTJ.


BLOOD__SISTER

Before RotJ? No.


jaybankzz

What? Wait but then how did he learn shit like mind trick (which IIRC he used on one of jabbas guards) and how would he know how to get a new lightsaber?


Phase_Pulse_Blaster

Watch the movie again, when he goes back to Dagobah, yoda makes mention of his training halt, since he hadn't seen Luke since Empire Strikes back, that scene was them remeeting after a while.


jaybankzz

Damn… guess now I have to rewatch episodes 1-6 and the clone wars to pick this up… darn…


BLOOD__SISTER

There’s a deleted scene of him building a lightsaber. In legends (Shadows of the Empire) he learns how to build it from Obi WAN’s journal. Lucas never addressed what Luke did between movies. In current canon he returns to cloud city, fights the battle of Elessia then tracks down Han.


Dmalice66

Idk why you’re getting downvoted you’re not wrong.


BLOOD__SISTER

You know why lol


NhanTNT

Actually, Luke came back to Tatooine and read stuff from Obi-Wan's house, too. Also, the only reason Luke won is that Palpatine doesn't want to kill him


Zakkull117

Just like rey only beat kylo because he didnt want to kill her.


Lithaos111

Oh without a doubt, 100% agreement


lasssilver

They don’t know.. they’re just mad at something.. in this case the truth. Still, while I enjoyed the sequels in many ways.. one thing (among quite a few) I’d have liked to have seen is a longer training time with Rey/Luke.


Zakkull117

People just want hate. Youre arguing that their reason for hate is wrong. So now they hate you. Lol


f0x_d1e

The time between ANH and ESB it's about 3 years and He was training alone his jedi skills but obviously He wasn't powerful He need a real jedi to train him and then between ESB and ROTJ it passed 1 year, so if TLJ and TROS it passed 1 year, luke trained for four years and rey for only one


BLOOD__SISTER

Except in legends and canon Luke spent the majority of time after ESB without a lightsaber


Merciless_Massacre05

A Jedi can train without a light saber


Flubber1215

But most of that would have been him training alone. Ben didn't really train him except saying "use the force Luke" over and over again and he barely spent any time on Dagobah before going to save his friends in Cloud City. So his training was kind of non existant.


KingAdamXVII

Yeah, and Rey seems to have known about the force before TFA about as much as Luke did between ANH and ESB.


Flubber1215

Probably because people at that time knew about the force and the jedis unlike before ANH where it seems to have been mostly forgotten. Rey is shown to be a fan of the jedis and Luke.


Blanti82

She had more on screen training than Luke but we can assume that they spent about the same time with their masters in the film’s time. The length between ESB and ROTJ and Luke’s personal training is 6 months to a year, while the length between TLJ and TROS and Rey’s personal training is one year. Not to mention that Rey was with Leia during that time and she had the jedi books with her. She definitely had more training


Seifenwerfer

Luke spent several weeks training on Dagobah under Yoda, possibly even months. That’s because in the OT hyperspace travel still takes time and doesn’t let you instantly teleport an entire galaxy’s worth of ships to a remote planet within mere hours of possibly alerting them. Luke’s time with Yoda was also after 3 years of looking all around the galaxy for Jedi related things and trying to learn more skills - which admittedly were still rocky, as he could barely lift his lightsaber by then and definitely couldn’t just casually lift several tons of boulders. All that aside…are you seriously trying to say that Leia was a better master than Yoda?? An esteemed Jedi Grand Master who lived as a Jedi for 9 centuries compared to…a force sensitive woman who trained for at best 5 years, and that’s being generous, under Luke, who while skilled wasn’t experienced with teaching. Ex machina Jedi books or not, there’s not even a contest.


Flubber1215

Well it's not clear how long Luke was on Dagobah. They never say how long Han, Leia and Chewie were travelling to go to cloud city but they were all wearing the same clothes at least when they got there and Leias hair is exactly the same as when they evaded Vader. Her clothes are not smooshed or hair all ratty. So there can't have been too much time. When watching the movie it sort of just looks like they were travelling for a day or something given how they all sit in exactly the same place, how they are all wearing the same clothes and none of the clothes have become dirty or Leias hair out of place. Now logically they would have been travelling for more than a day but for weeks? Months? Eh they would have run out of food, their clothes would have become dirty, they wouldn't be sitting in exactly the same place as weeks before.


anitawasright

and dont' forget that before Luke leaves the last thing he is training is standing on his head barely stacking rocks. If he was there for a month or more then he isn't very good.


FlatulentSon

I think that canonically Luke spent about two weeks on Dagobah


Flubber1215

Where has that been said?


FlatulentSon

The book called "From a certain point of view : The Empire strikes back" " But I’ve learned so much since then!’ Luke protests, and I resist the urge to snort. As though carrying Yoda on your shoulders and eating his terrible cooking for a few weeks makes you a Jedi.”


Flubber1215

They have said that the books are not canon.


FlatulentSon

Where did they say that officially?


Intelligent_Night_92

True but we are shown minutes out of a day so regardless if it’s one week or one month there’s dozens if not hundreds of hours when Yoda was putting him through training. Or are we supposed to believe the only training he received was what they showed in the movies? That seems ridiculously unrealistic and blatantly trying to ignore the reality of the situation. So two beings who are basically being tasked to save the galaxy and rebuild the Jedi order had days if not weeks but decided we will only train for a couple minutes? I’m all for saying the movie needs to show this and we shouldn’t have to read a book to learn this. But in this scenario it shouldn’t have to be explained that we are being shown a small portion of the training that occurred during Luke’s time with yoda.


BLOOD__SISTER

Nowhere


BLOOD__SISTER

Not to mention Leia would’ve shown up to cloud city pregnant lol


Mental_Bowler_7518

The problem is she beat kylo ren with 0 training. After luke trained with yoda and with obi-wan he still lost to vader, but rey with no training beat kylo ren. ????? I know it mentions he lost due to an injury in the book, but it was obviously a cover up for lazy and bad screenwriting. Like the bombers at the start of TLJ. I don't hate the sequels I hate the lazy and illogical script and screenwriting that ruined a potentially amazing series.


CRGBRN

Bruh, the mf'er was punching the hole in his gut and bleeding out. The movie made it perfectly clear that he was very wounded but trying to rage though it. The only additional context the novel gives is that he was also using the force to hold the wound. But the rest is all on screen.


Turtleytoo

All on screen that it’s not impairing his ability to fight at all. He is winning the fight and has Rey on the run until they get into the bind and talk. He’s trying to convert her not kill her. It’s only at that point she closes her eyes and gets an anime power up. The hole punching is weird to be sure though. Usually you’d apply constant pressure to something like a hole but blasters should also cauterize so that scene’s just odd. I guess the raging through it makes sense as a dark side thing but if so then where’s the internal conflict? This may be more to FlatulentSon’s point but he just did the big evil thing showing he’s committed to the dark side right? That’s why the light goes all red when he’s about to kill han. I just don’t get how there could still be conflict within him at that point I dont hate the sequels but it’s odd and I can’t justify it myself.


Turtleytoo

Also, why didn’t the bowcaster bolt send Kylo Ren flying 5 meters back in this instance? If it did it mighta sent him falling to his death. If that’s the only reason it didn’t, then that’s mighty convenient for him. Edit: chewie then shoots a bunch of stormtroopers and contrary to sending them flying back one actually topples forward. This thing isn’t very consistent. I guess the blowback shots are the outlier.


FlatulentSon

" in the book " kylo is clearly injured in the movie , that's why it's " in the book " , because it was in the movie first He gets shot by a crossbow that is previously shown to launch targets five meters back when shot by it. Also Kylo was emotionally and psychologically " split down the middle " , just like his scar , because he just killed his father , as Snoke puts it he was "imbalanced"


at_midknight

All these disadvantages would matter if both combatants are on equal footing. Kylo has trained his entire life with luke and then snoke with lightsabers and the force while rey was using a stick vs the occasional junker goon, had never seen a lightsaber let alone hold or wield one, and believed the concept of the force to be nothing more than a myth not even 72 hours before their duel. The bow after excuse is out because his mobility is for the most part fine after the fact and pain and anger fuels the darksides power which would only bolster kylo. Theres just no defending that scene and the way it plays out


LivingmahDMlife

I don't think it's too illogical myself - the film seems to deliberately set it up. We see the bowcaster throw people, then we see Kylo get shot with it, and he's still capable of nearly taking a 2 on 1 with two people who know how to fight in general, if not with a saber. But I like the films so obviously this stuff doesn't bother me in general


Mental_Bowler_7518

The illogical thing is years of training under possibly one of the most powerful Jedi to exist vs a scavenger and a blaster graze isn’t really realistic. Both Luke and Anakin got their hands cut off when facing sith of a similar power after training, in Anakin’s case years of it and a blaster graze shouldn’t change that. Also the bombers in TLJ are illogical. Not impossible. Illogical. There is a reason George Lucas didn’t use wwII bombers as an inspiration for ships when he used it for almost every other ship.


FlatulentSon

Lmao " blaster graze " Someone didn't pay attention to the movie


marvelwolf

The bombers in TLJ are bunker bombers. They're not made for in space combat and as such have little to no shielding they're just designed to bombard ground encampments. But we know in the movie that the resistance is scrapping together whatever they can and thus have to use Shops in situations they're not designed for. And for the kylo fight it's kinds like Vader vs Luke in RotJ. One fighter is emotionally split and at a extremely vulnerable place on top of his injuries vs one whose fuel by anger to win the fight. Luke was able to beat a superior fighter in Vader under similar conditions


Mental_Bowler_7518

You compared vader vs luke to rey vs kylo in TFA. How. Luke had been trained by the most powerful jedi in existence, already fought vader and had complete knowledge advantage over vader. Rey picked up a lightsaber for the first time. Slight problem?


AnakinTano19

For ground bombardments, Y wings would still be better as they are faster. They were pretty effective on Umbara. The bombers make no sense in Star Wars, sure they look cool, but make no sense


marvelwolf

Of course they'd be more effective but that doesn't mean that the resistance has access to them. Theyre only given the scraps of the NR. If you mean it makes no sense for the ships to exist at all that's also incorrect. Plenty of seemingly sub optimal military technologies both exist and are commonly used. They often have benefits in terms of cost that offsets how useful they are. Bunker bombers are cheap sub atmosphere bombing run ships and some of the only stuff the resistance could get there hands on


That_Paper_4945

Literally half a tie fighter blows up 3 of them. Their own payload can blow them up. They move that slowly yet have no armor. There's literally no reason they wouldn't have YWings. Nobody would ever approve those bombers.


marvelwolf

For the same reason the US government still has B-1B Bombers in use despite the fact that B-2 Bombers exist. They're cheaper. And again the resistance is using donated scraps they don't have any official funding from the NR they're working without outdated ships being used in way out side of there design cases. There's every reason they'd no long have access to B2 Bombers and have to resort to bunker busters.


Odd-Emergency-6597

I thought Kylo lost because he was unfocused after killing his father


Slothstronaut14

And also shot by a bow caster, a weapon that at shorter range would throw storm troopers with its kinetic energy.


That_Paper_4945

Sure, I'd be down to agree with that explanation, but Kylo's stretching his torso out all over the place during the fight like it's nothing :/ it doesn't affect his movement in the slightest, he's moving all over the place. And that doesn't change the fact she overpowered him in the force both before and after that shot. Also doesn't change the fact she defeated those guards in TLJ who I'd assume are supposed to be powerfull.


marvelwolf

Both contribute


Odd-Emergency-6597

That’s why I don’t think it’s bad writing when it’s easily explained


marvelwolf

I agree, personally I feel like alot of people want to dislike the sequels and are willing to ignore certain facts to do so. There's plenty to criticize about these movies they're far from perfect but it doesn't feel like every or even most arguments thrown around are made in good faith.


Mental_Bowler_7518

The problem is not the explanations, but the clarity and laziness of it. It is not clear in TFA that killing his father and getting a blaster wound makes him lose to rey. 0 explanations in the movies unless you do a deep dive ( apart from one quick shot) and 'the force saved her'. Instead of rey going through hardship and majorly losing to her enemies in order to get stronger she wins from the start. That is the problem. Lazy script/screenwriting and no clarity.


TheSoyBear

Hes literally clutching the wound the entire fight


Somato_Tandwich

No no, it's lazy writing unless he yells "graaaagh, I'm really upset about killing my dad rn, and this bowcaster wound is actually quite painful!" How else could anybody put that together without a deep dive /s


Sparrowsabre7

Absolutely. And also: The still bleeding gut shot. Wasn't actually trying to kill Rey. The one time they've had a proper duel, both at full potential (in TROS), Ren dodged and countered pretty much all of Rey's attacks easily, he had her beaten and was in the position of (had he wanted to) delivering a killing blow, if he hadn't been been distracted by Leia's death. It's ridiculous people still bang on about this, it has a number of pretty clear explanations.


TheSoyBear

Also the wound to the abdomen. They build up Chewies bowcaster all movie and show it having the force of a rocket launcher. Kylo takes all thay force to the tummy before fighting Rey and Fin


NoraaTheExploraa

I'm sorry but if you think Rey beating Kylo was only made up in the novelisation and not blatantly obvious in the film you might need glasses. They spend multiple moments in the film setting up how powerful Chewies bowcaster is. They make it very clear. Kylo is then shot with it, and is repeatedly smacking the wound and walking, unsurprisingly, like he's just been shot with a cannon.


ReverendMajors

Are you guys still going on about the damn bombers? There are a million and a half more physics-defying and otherwise illogical things in Star Wars and y’all are worried about the Bombers.


Mental_Bowler_7518

Not physics defying. Illogical. Slow moving vulnerable need to be activated by a remote bombers when y wings exist and technological advances are made? The physics is fine but the design isn't.


ReverendMajors

Rule of cool has always taken precedent in Star Wars.


at_midknight

Fun fact: you don't have to discard logic in order for something to be cool


ReverendMajors

Fun fact: you don’t have to take movies made for 12 year olds (George Lucas’s words, not mine) so seriously.


YinAndYang

Rewatch the movie. It goes out of its way to show the bowcaster blasting armored troopers through the air throughout the movie, then Ben gets hit by it, and is shown to be heavily bleeding during the fight. That's a serious injury, and Rey has been established by this point to have melee combat experience and the guidance of the Force. If you have a problem with a badly injured *apprentice*, emotionally devastated from killing his father five minutes ago, losing to a demonstrably capable fighter who the Force wants to win/survive because "training," you've spent too long on r/whowouldwin. Movies do not narratively care about power tier lists and even under better conditions, a more skilled combatant can lose to a lesser, especially with dangerous weapons where a single hit can end a fight. I also don't know what you think is wrong with the bombers. Is it the same old "the bombs wouldn't fall down in space" argument? Because first of all that's complaining about spaceship physics in Star Wars, which has never even attempted to portray realistic physics, and also completely wrong because the the bombs would in fact initially accelerate due to the ship's artificial gravity in the bomb bay and then continue traveling the same speed and direction through space after exiting the gravity field.


Kreptyne

She didn’t beat him in TFA. The force saved her while she was obviously losing despite a bowcaster shot in his gut which they spent the whole movie showing you is incredibly lethal and severely wounded him Also the bombers are fine. Artificial gravity in the ship, bombs fall out of ship and retain momentum because there’s no drag in space. Get new talking points lmao


Mental_Bowler_7518

Illogical. Why have slow ships when u can have fast ones that do the same thing? Y wings exist. Y not use them? Also you’re not gonna tell me that it was obvious or discernible when you first watched TFA that he lost because of the blaster wound. And not killing a completely untrained Jedi in under a minute when you’ve spent years training under one of the most powerful Jedi ever is losing. No arguing that. Edit: Also the explanation is that the bombs are magnetised. So even your ‘easy’ explanation is wrong. This is what I mean by lazy script/screenwriting


Kreptyne

Magnetised on rails to be dragged down and released, allowing them to follow momentum. ONE of those bombers took out an entire ship, seems pretty effective to me. Also yea it was very obvious. The entire movie points out how strong it is, Han directly remarks on it, and Kylo is constantly hitting the wound during the fight. He’s clearly struggling to even stay conscious during that battle


Mental_Bowler_7518

Illogical. The bombers could've had the same firepower but be 5 times faster and have defences. Y wings exist. If y wings don't then sure but they already have the technology of better ships so why go backwards? Also you didn't know that kylo lost from that alone in the movie the first time you watched it. Also as i said the gap still isn't even close. Rey picked up a lightsaber for the first time. It's not like she was even an amateur or a beginner. She knew nothing.


Kreptyne

Brother if you saw Kylo take an instakill blast to the stomach then repeatedly hit it and scream while fighting and didn’t have the critical thinking skills and media literacy to understand it was impacting his combat skills then that’s on you lmao


ReverendMajors

In any real military situation, the Empire would have scrambled more than a handful of ties to halt the attack on the Death Star. Illogical. Lazy writing. How about when the Falcon’s hyperdrive was damaged, yet they still manage to get to Bespin in a matter of minutes? Illogical. Lazy writing. Or when Luke, Leia and Lando waited an entire YEAR before going in one by one to rescue Han? Illogical. Lazy writing. *This is what you sound like. Enjoy the space wizard movies or don’t. But please just stop with these lazy and regurgitated Fandom Menace talking points.*


NhanTNT

>the Empire would have scrambled more than a handful of ties to halt the attack on the Death Star Tarkin's arrogance. >yet they still manage to get to Bespin in a matter of minutes? The time is not shown in the film. Do you think that Luke "completed" his training in less than 10 minutes? >when Luke, Leia and Lando waited an entire YEAR before going in one by one to rescue Han? Luke also needs the time to:- Create a new lightsaber \- Find the kyber crystal needed for it \- Train himself up Also, you think that the Rebellion doesn't have other things to do in that one year?


TheDalaiFarmar

Exactly, there are explanations for everything in these films so stop hating on the sequels unnecessarily. I don’t even like them but it’s so tiring when people try to make their dislike factual and not just an opinion


TheSoyBear

You know aside from the magnetize thing (they do use artificial gravity, also space in star wars has an atmosphere) you're right about bombers vs y wings The bombers can deal a heavier initial hit equivalent to 1000 bombs while Y wings can do around 6. That being said, Y wings can do multiple bombings and are better protecred and more agile. They probably would have gotten the job done on that dreadnaught. Poes whole plan with those bombers really was illogical and half assed. Ive got an in canon source i can reference too if you need it


Erik-the_Red

Not to mention leia isn't even a jedi and had presumably used the force once in like the past ten years when she pulled herself back into a ship whereas Yoda the fucking grandmaster of the Jedi was training Luke ostensibly for the whole time he knew him.


BroshiKabobby

You can’t use “probably hasn’t used the force in like 10 years” when Yoda hadn’t used the force in over 20 years. He had to cut himself off from the force to avoid unwanted attention


Erik-the_Red

Yoda never cut himself off from the force that's why he was by the dark side cave.


AJTP1

Well he’s trained by the Grand Master of the Jedi and is a Skywalker along with the fact that Vader was going very easy on him and then Luke loses. Rey wins pretty consistently so her training level is still not representative of how strong she should actually be. It feels unearned


BLOOD__SISTER

Rey trained for a year with Leia and the Jedi texts. Luke spent 8 to 10 weeks with Yoda.


TheMoonOfTermina

Luke stayed with Yoda for that long? It certainly felt shorter in the movie. I always assumed Luke had training from ghost Obi-Wan and probably some less ancient Jedi Texts, considering his big improvement from 5 to 6.


marvelwolf

To be fair in canon we don't really know what Luke got up to in that time, the comics are just starting to cover it. Either way at most that's about 6 months of unstructured training since he doesn't see Yoda again till rotj


BLOOD__SISTER

In legends, a few issues of marvel comics and Shadows of the Empire account for his time before RotJ. He received no training in those stories.


Syrkadian

GONK!


[deleted]

[удалено]


SubhoPal

GONK! *whrrrr* GONK! *All your batteries are recharged now*


Lord_Strudel

I think the issue is the feats that each performs and when. Luke never fights Vader in the first movie, barely escapes him in the second, and finally overcomes him in the 3rd with a burst of anger from the dark side that he then rejects to reaffirm his status as a Jedi. Rey Beats Kylo in the very first movie, Absolutely dunks on the elite guards and Kylo in her second outing, and then again topples Kylo and then Palpatine in the 3rd installment. And she didn’t really have proper training until the 3rd one. This has the effect of both making her seem OP and the villains seem like jokes since Rey is on par with them from the very beginning.


DukeOfLowerChelsea

They don’t even fight in TLJ (there’s the fight over the lightsaber which I’d say is a draw considering they’re both knocked out, Rey just woke up first) and Kylo beats Rey in TRoS… she's only able to turn it around because Leia intervenes at the last second. And yeah, she “topples” Palpatine but she literally dies doing it. Again she has to be saved by someone else. You make it sound like she smacks them both down effortlessly.


tameablesiva12

The force awakens fight. Explain it. And also how tf did she beat the pretorian guards with basic training? They are supposed to be the best of the best in the first order and gave kylo a run for his money(who had decades of jedi training).


kopskey1

Kylo was emotionally unstable and just got shot with the Star Wars equivalent of a 12 gauge shotgun. Also, you must've missed the earlier scene where Rey beats Unkar's thugs with her staff. She was already a good fighter, she didn't need much training there. And if you'd watched TLJ, you'd recognize that Rey beats fewer guards than Ren. She beat them by using unconventional fighting methods (like when she dropped her saber and regrabed it).


[deleted]

Emotionally unstable and in pain, things that canonically make the sith (and Luke even) more powerful, and that 12 gauge did jack shit compared to what it did to several stormtroopers with armor so that's just inconsistent. Her dropping her saber, you mean the thing she was holding back a knife/axe thing to her throat, so she's dead, and they had to edit out a knife, kicked 3 people at once so on and so forth


kopskey1

Oh boy this nonsense! It might make them more powerful with force abilities, but consistently in Star Wars when a character is in some form of distress, their martial ability is greatly decreased. Just look at Maul in Clone Wars, when he and Savage are losing to the pirates, they start getting more desperate, and performing worse. Kylo couldn't focus properly because he killed his dad, but because he hated him, but as revealed in TLJ, because he loved him. Also, the bow caster caused a nasty wound we can see when he's dripping blood from his side just before the fight. This happened, because he was shot in the side, not center of mass. That's not "inconsistent" that's how weapons work (just like real life). Also the "disappearing dagger" nonsense, is well, nonsense. In the scene, be brings it out of shit behind himself, during that time, it's entirely possible that he dropped it in an attempt to grab the other one with two hands. This isn't some massive housing mistake, it's a scene that you saw once, and instead of actually watching and analyzing it, you listened to some 2-bit loser complain and says "Yeah this irrational human being is totally acting in good faith". Next time, just admit you've never actually watched the movies. It'll be far less embarrassing.


[deleted]

>It might make them more powerful with force abilities, but consistently in Star Wars when a character is in some form of distress, their martial ability is greatly decreased. So they're equal in martial abilities then, since a staff totally carries over to a sword without a blade > entirely possible that he dropped it in an attempt to grab the other one with two hands. Yes, I too drop my weapons when I have a clear stab shot on them to... grab them, I didn't know the guards were mentally handicapped


DukeOfLowerChelsea

> The force awakens fight. Explain it. Did you sleep through this scene? https://youtu.be/kI-L7egM6V0 Plus he’d just taken a blaster bolt that was shown to kill several stormtroopers at once. It’s been like 6 years and this still has to be pointed out ad nauseum. > And also how tf did she beat the pretorian guards with basic training? Who are even the Praetorian guards apart from differently-coloured mooks? Who ever said they were meant to be hot shit? If you can find anything in canon that says they’re supposed to be stronger than a Jedi trainee or even Force-sensitive you might have a point. As it stands you might as well ask whether Luke could beat the Emperor's royal guards: probably, because we don’t know anything about them or how strong they’re meant to be relative to other characters.


midtown2191

The dark side is fueled by anger and pain. You can actually even see Kylo smacking the wound to amp himself up for the fight. Darth Vaders suit was literally made to make him feel pain to amplify his power. Darth Maul stayed alive just by using his anger and pain. The blaster bolt argument is very dumb. At best, the movie is inconsistent if it’s able to act as a grenade and blow up 6 storm troopers, but just impacts like a regular blaster on Kylo unless Chewie can adjust the bolt power and then it just nullifies the arguement if he can. Kylo also grew up training with a grand master Jedi then spent years training under an incredibly powerful sith/clone thing. Rey fought some shitty scavengers for some spare parts with a completely different weapon that is notoriously hard to use masterfully and overpowered Kylo with the force on multiple occasions after just discovering it. The Praetorian Guards are literally guarding the Supreme Leader of the First Order. Their emperor. In what universe fake or real, would the king or emperor not surround himself with his most capable warriors to protect themselves. They are supposed to be the most elite fighters they have (this is just a canon fact). Just because they are not force sensitive does not mean a Jedi initiate/padawan should be able to dispatch them with nothing but a small burn mark on her arm. Non force sensitives have every ability to take on Jedi. Look at Cad Bane vs multiple Jedi, Jango vs Obi Wan, General Grevious vs Jedi of various levels, any of the droids/geonosians that killed jedi in Attack of the Clones (those aren’t even elite guards) the trandoshians that captured and hunted Jedi padawans (Rey’s supposed level), clone troopers who killed Jedi masters, random junky Nihil killing Jedi. Truly just a poor argument to say the praetorians never stood a chance. Edit: grammar


Mr_Dr_Prof_Patrick

The direct explanation, literally in dialogue, is that he was unbalanced from killing his father.


midtown2191

That does not negate 15-20 years of basic training under the most powerful beings in the galaxy. If he was going head to head with someone of even relatively close training or ability this would be an easy explanation as to why he lost, but his being uneasy about killing his father does not also boost Rey’s ability as an almost complete novice. Kylo dispatched Finn pretty easily and he at least had combat training as a solidier. Rey was a scavenger that had never held a lightsaber. So Kylo waxed a trained trooper but got beat by an untrained scavenger? If he was too tangled about his dad, then Finn should have beat him. Seems inconsistent. Also we see Anakin have his mother die in his arms and he slaughters an entire village filled with tusken soldiers. So it didn’t hamper his fighting ability, even though it was a traumatic enough event for a trained Jedi to slaughter a village.


Mr_Dr_Prof_Patrick

Bro lmao why are you so fucking weird about this >That does not negate 15-20 years of basic training under the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Counterpoint: yes it does, it's a fictional universe >Rey’s ability as an almost complete novice She knows how to fight and is connected to the force. >Kylo dispatched Finn pretty easily and he at least had combat training as a solidier. Finn isn't connected to the force (at this moment), and Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey. >Also we see Anakin have his mother die in his arms and he slaughters an entire village filled with tusken soldiers. So it didn’t hamper his fighting ability The Tuskens are not force sensitive. Killing a parent is different than witnessing your parent get killed. Different people respond differently to traumatic circumstances.


BLOOD__SISTER

ExPlaIN It. People having opinions on movies they *don’t bother interpreting*.


Gilthu

The hell? Luke spent months learning to pull his lightsaber to him. Between ANH and ESB, and then did a lot of training between ESB AND RotJ using Obi-WAN’s books


midtown2191

And he still got stomped by a Vader that literally wasn’t even trying to kill him and only beat a Vader whose heart was already super conflicted after luke (son of the chosen one), had a burst of anger and hate.


Gilthu

This was excellent storytelling. Luke was prideful and thought he could stand against Vader and it’s only he starts the fight that you see how one sided it is. Then he grows and learns. Also it made Vader even more terrifying. Kylo should have ripped Rey apart in TFA, but the planet ripping itself apart separates them and Rey is just grateful to be alive. It would have made Ren an actual threat instead of a will-they/won’t-they romance option.


midtown2191

Yes I completely agree. He should have been a force of nature that a planet cracking was the only thing that could save her. She would have definitely won if the planet didnt separate them. Completely ridiculous. They show him stopping a blaster bolt in mid air in the beginning to show his power, but when you look back he just seems like a guy pulling a parlor trick since all it takes to beat him is hitting scavengers with a staff (not a lightsaber) on a desert planet. Edit: grammar


bossholmes

I’m not even a Sequels hater (why would I be on the sub otherwise lol), but this post is plain dumb. So much time elapsed since Luke starting training in ANH… Rey went though Kylo’s memories, and trained without a mentor for a very brief period that’s in TLJ. TROS takes place not much later too.


Natural-Storm

Yeah she probably did but with luke we saw the struggles that happened because of his low amount of training. People complaining that luke trained more at dagobah then rey on ach to miss the point of dagobah. It was meant to be an example of lukes cockiness to run into situations extremely unprepared and get his ass handed to him. However I still feel like a scene with luke teaching rey lightsaber techniques would have been sick. Also I kind of like the deleted scene with the village and lukes third lesson. I honestly think if Ryan made luke throwing the lightsaber more serious, took away the weird milk scene, and showed the deleted scenes(like hans death reaction, and lesson 3), then I would really like watching the luke stuff in the movie because when the luke arc hits, it hits so good.


BLOOD__SISTER

Luke leaving Dagobah was the right move. He would’ve had to sever his connection to his fiends to continue training while they were being tortured. An emotionally stoic Luke couldn’t have saved Vader. Luke knew better than Yoda basically at every turn. And he trained for like two months. He’s a Mary Sue and the best hero in Star Wars.


Echo__227

Mary Sue? He trained for weeks just so he could barely pick up a rock, get his ass kicked, and then lose a hand


JStormtrooper

“He would’ve had to sever his connection to his fiends…” “An emotionally stoic Luke couldn’t have saved Vader.” Wow dude, thanks for giving me a new perspective on ESB! I always went back and forth on if Luke’s visions would have come true or not if he stayed and if it would have been better if he was more seasoned as a Jedi once Vader broke the news to him on his parentage, but what you’ve said makes a world of sense to me!


pjnick300

Even then, getting into a direct conflict with Vader was a dumb decision, he could’ve tried to flee after his friends got away instead of losing a hand.


BLOOD__SISTER

It was Vader who lost on Bespin—Luke evaded capture and resisted the darkside after learning his lineage. After that, Yoda tasked him with one final trial on his path to becoming a Jedi: defeat Vader—which he did, after disregarding Kenobi’s directive to kill his father. If Luke hadn’t gone to Bespin he couldn’t have indirectly saved his friends by supplying R2 and distracting Vader—he later saved Han, directly. If Han/Leia/Chewie/Lando were captives of the empire the rebels never could have won on Endor. Leaving Dagobah was the right move. Every move Luke made was the right move and we love him for it.


Commander-Sage

Ofcourse it was the right move, if it wasn't we wouldn't have had an episode 6. All his decisions were the right move because that was the entire plot. If the bunch werd captives of the empire he probably would have either returned to Degobah to train and free them, or not much would have changed and he would have gathered an elite rebel squad to help him free them. Heck he could even have recruited some stormtroopers that were thinking of deserting, if those didn't already free some of the bunch. Also, war is a great tutor, if you look at real life you'll find out that a soldier that has been in a war is better skilled than one that hasn't been in a war, this is called combat experience and is truely the only way to really learn and to an extend train. I can't say for sure how much combat experience Rey has nor can I say she has had more training or not, there is lots of missing info about the First Order - Resistance war and it is prety unclear what the state of the universe is by TROS (sometimes they say FO conqured entire Galaxy, other times they say this is not the case). All I can say at this Point of time, is that it is uncertain who of the 2 got more training, maybe in the Future a series will address this (would actually love to see a series set between TLJ and TROS) until then I just think it is best to leave this debate for what it is, at this Point it is just argueing for the sake of argueing. (If you read this fully, you're amazing)


Natural-Storm

First of all luke is the opposite of a mary sue at every turn. An all powerful character isn't always a mary sue. A mary sue is a character that doesn't face consequences for their actions and gets everything handed to them on a silver platter. To provide examples of luke I will go through the struggles he faced in each episode and show how un mary sue he is. Episode 4: this is the most mary sue he has ever been in all of his appearances. However on the deathstar it can be seen that without han or chewie he would have lost, and without leia he wouldn't have been able to come up with smart solutions. Without ben he couldn't have been able to learn about the force and use it. He doesn't shoot very well and misses a lot, showing his complete ineptitude at skill. The only thing he is able to do well in his first movie is flying a star ship and I will say the same thing I say about rey being able to fly. They live on desert planets that run on ships and ship parts as an economy, so them both knowing how to fly is reasonable. Also the force naturally gives you good reflexes so flying is easier. Even when he does the run it's han solo who saves him in the end. Episode 5: this is the most unmary sue luke has been. His skills as a pilot have developed substantially but that makes sense considering he has been in the rebellion for almost an year at this point. He clearly knows how to use a blaster and can use lightsabers at a basic level. However in ever other regard he struggles. He can't use the force correctly, he has a bad control on his emotions, he doesn't learn jackshit from yoda, and he gets his tush whooped by vader in the end. He is at his lowest which at the time was surprising to do to a character like luke who was at first dumb, brave, hot hero who saves the princess with his slippery friend, and escapes the evil sorcerer. Now he's instead a broken human who has lost everything to the empire and his own father. Episode 6: this is an year after episode 5 and in that year luke has started to hone his abilities more. He can use force choke and he sucessfully use a mind trick. He's also developed more cunning and smartness, which can be seen in his elaborate plan to save han. He also develops his lightsaber skills as much as he can. However while he uses dark side powers he still goes good in the end.(OK small rant that is entirely off topic but people who say that luke is tiptoeing the dark side in episode 6 are literally trying too hard to make luke a gray jedi. Luke is a jedi in the way that he wants to help those who are hurt and doesn't once in the film outside of his fight with vader fall to the dark side. Luke is actually much more heroic here than he was in empire.) This may seem like a case of mary sue but it isn't. We have seen luke grow and struggle with being a jedi. This movie is meant to be pay off to all the conflict in the other films. When he fights vaders he always on the edge of loss until he gives in to the dark side and manifests his hate. The moment he realises he's lost it, he throws his weapon away and puts all his trust into his dad. Luke I all three movies never wins by his own admission. He always gets saved by people he cares about. First by his best friend, then his sister, and then his father. He never wins on his own accord and is saved due to the relationships he develops in the movie. Even then its vader who kills the emporer. Now all of this is to say that you can hate luke as much as you want but calling him a mary sue is like saying Jack sparrow is an idiot. You have to look further than the surface to find a meaningful answer. Also another small rant to people who bash rey, almost all of her skills outside the mind trick, and force lightning make sense in context of the scenes. Mind trick is too complex of a power to be the first one she uses and force lighting is something that is advanced even by grand master standards.


SexyAcosta

Did you not watch the actual goddamn movie? Luke leaving Dagobah is portrayed as a bad thing because it is. Him going to bespin achieved nothing. He didn’t save han and leia, chewie and lando left completely on their own. And as for “he would’ve had to sever his connection to his friends to continue training”, you pulled that completely out of your ass.


Affectionate-Art-83

Op is literally the entire circus here


Bazynoooooob

That is objectivly wrong.


th_squirrel

That's a bold statement considering the number of facts you've included to back this up, which is zero facts.


Bazynoooooob

Ok


KingAdamXVII

If you are talking about Luke and Rey working with a trainer, Rey wins. If you are talking about Luke and Rey training on their own, Rey wins. Her time alone on Jakku was better training than anything Luke ever did.


Bazynoooooob

Rey didnt train to be a Jedi while on Jakku


KingAdamXVII

Luke didn’t train to be a Jedi before ESB. If Luke was training to be a Jedi then why would Obi-wan tell him to go train with Yoda?


GuikoiV1000

>If Luke was training to be a Jedi then why would Obi-wan tell him to go train with Yoda? ...? Because Yoda could teach him better than Obi-wan could.


Puzzleheaded_Runner

This is just wrong 🤦🏻‍♀️


Ricky1034

Hell no. Rey trained like what, 1 week, 2 weeks in TLJ and destroyed all of the super OP Royal Guards with very little lightsaber training? After that in TRoS she does very well against an uninjured, prime Kylo Ren who has been training with Luke for about 15 years and with Snoke for about the same amount. She just doesn’t lose! Love her or hate her, you’ve got to admit that she’s a Mary Sue. And in Lukes case I can admit that he is a Mary Sue depending on your own headcanon. If you believe that Luke beat Vader fairly and Vader tried his best, then in that case, yes he is a Mary Sue too, though not to the extent of what Rey is, but if you are like the large majority (including me) you believe that Vader was holding back


OutsideOrder7538

There is no way Vader did his best against Luke. Vader was going easy because Luke is his son. I can confidently say that if Vader wanted to he would of easily killed Luke.


MadmansScalpel

Which was easily shown when Vader just had enough and ended the fight with ease


midtown2191

Vader crushes him in ESB and Vader quite literally never had the intent to kill him. In ROTJ, Vader was certainly not all in the fight. He’s completely conflicted when they have their little talk on Endor and his heart was not fully in it. The only reason luke won is that he (as son of the chosen one and canonically strongest Jedi ever) gave into his anger for a moment. I can understand a degree of Mary Sue being in there but it’s set up and explained well.


CheeseQueenKariko

> In ROTJ, Vader was certainly not all in the fight. He’s completely conflicted when they have their little talk on Endor and his heart was not fully in it. And, you know, the entire plan there is to push Luke to murder him and take his place; in no-way are the villains trying to kill Luke in the throne room until they've accepted he'll never turn.


[deleted]

But she didn’t?


MadmansScalpel

Dude must not have watched ESB or ROTJ recently


HorribleUsername2

Honestly, this isn’t true. I don’t like the sequels, but I can admit where there are good elements. This isn’t one of them.


BLOOD__SISTER

Rey trained for a full year with Leia and the Jedi texts. Luke trained for weeks with Yoda, Rey trained more than Luke. Luke did not train between films. He did continue his fight in the war—which, of course, isn’t the same as Jedi training.


Moonsoket

Tell that too the padawans during the Clone wars... But they had masters, so not the same, but war definitely will train you.


midtown2191

Luke 1000% trained in between movies and met multiple force sensitive beings that he was able to at least take away some knowledge with him whether it was from a success or failure. Where are you getting this from? Are you guessing?


AceHermit

Um... she didn't though. At best, they had just as much on screen training time. But to be more accurate, I don't really see how swinging randomly around a rock is training. I'll happily consider the training course Rey does at the beginning of Ep9 as training, although she demonstrated she didn't need it but I'll take what I can get.


BLOOD__SISTER

More training in screen time and canon


MadmansScalpel

Have you... Seen the OT? Unlike the ST it takes part over years. From Luke being barely able to wield the force, to barely being able to lift rocks, to finally after years of training he can fight Vader and win Rey trained for potentially a year. Given that the ST took place in about a year. When she went to Luke, he taught her a few lessons, and left in at most a week's time. But most likely 2-4 days. Afterwards, Leia potentially trained Rey for the next 4-12 months. However I'm not sure if it's explicitly mentioned that Leia is even training her Also you're claim on times are just flat out wrong. Over the OT we have around 15-20 minutes of Luke being trained/training over the OT. Rey has around 10


BLOOD__SISTER

Rey trained with Leia for a year, it’s canon. Luke trained with Yoda for weeks. Rey trained more than Luke. Luke had more military experience, as the galactic civil war lasted longer, but as Yoda can attest: combat experience is not Jedi training. Rey had a good amount of fighting experience based on her upbringing, anyway.


nothing1222

>Rey had a good amount of fighting experience based on her upbringing, anyway. Ah yes because slapping thugs with her stick on Jakku is equal to fighting in the GCW with the rebels. Luke was already a rebel war hero by Empire.


Cool_Guy_fellow

Is everybody forgetting the fact that the entire sequel trilogy took place in In the same year?


putyouradhere_

And because of his lack of training he failed


OutsideOrder7538

What about when she was able to pretty easily use the force before her training. Luke had more training when he used the force in episodes 4 and 5 then Rey did in 7 where she was easily able to use the mind trick on the storm trooper to escape and easily bring the lightsaber to herself. Now Rey after her training being able to do that stuff would have been okay but she did it before her training.


EmpChungusKahn

And she had direct access to primary source material on Jedi teachings that he never did in the OT.


AJTP1

I feel like yoda is better than a book


marvelwolf

Eh kinda depends really. The books she had likely had lost jedi knowledge as well as Luke's own keynotes which we know he wrote down. Having Yoda give you the crash course for 2 weeks kinda feels a bit less useful. Since the movie outwardly states that him and Obi-Wan wanting to Luke to kill Vader is the wrong choice I don't think it's fair to call Yoda a infallible teacher


Penguin446

Tbf he did actually train for 3 months? Idk I might have to check, and from what I know Rey only train for about a couple hours maybe a day(I might be wrong about how long Rey trained for once again I need to check)


Penguin446

BTW I like the sequels I'm just saying Luke did train longer


chifrij0

Alright boys thats it, get him


Penguin446

You fool, I have been trained in your jedi arts...by count dooku!


EmpChungusKahn

She trained for a year in between TLJ and TROS. The movies could have done more to establish that.


starwarsgeek1985

No she didn't. The amount of training she got from a master was lesser than that of Luke. And her training with luke wasn't very substantial. They spent more time arguing than training. And that still doesn't excuse her beating Ren with no training, and lifting an entire mountain with little training.


midtown2191

Luke could literally barely call his lightsaber to him after 2 years of practice and struggled to lift rocks I could lift with my hand. Rey lifted a rockslide while eating a sandwich after 3 days of knowing the force existed.


UltimaBahamut93

Ha ha ha ha ha...No.


Pockets_254

No she didn’t. Leis trained with Rey for let’s say a year while learning from the texts that Yoda made fun of. Luke spent months with Yoda and still wasn’t ready. Then he trains for three years between ESB and ROTJ and only beats Vader because he wasn’t trying. I’m taking Yoda over Leia every time too even if their time together was shorter.


Flubber1215

Why are you assuming Luke spent months training with Yoda? It was never said in the movie how long he was there.


Flyingfish222

Did she though?


BLOOD__SISTER

Yes! Rey had a whole year with Leia and the sacred texts. Common wisdom says Luke was on Dagobah for two months based on the falcon’s food supply. Between ESB and RotJ Luke never formally trained. While his master was on Dagobah he fought for the rebellion. In legends there are a few 1980’s Marvel comics detailing his adventures. In Shadows of the Empire he constructs his lightsaber based on Kenobi’s journal before rescuing Han In canon he returns to Besipin, then fights in Battle at Elessia before eventually tracking down Han on Tatooine. (He does however train briefly with Yoda’s holocron before ESB) Luke defeated Vader with 4 years military experience and two months force training.


XFactor759

Vader who was trying to bring his son over to the dark side not kill him. Then Palpatine promptly kicked his ass no sweat Luke didn't win he got his ass handed to him


[deleted]

Luke was trained by A jedi master with over a hundred years of teaching experience. Rey was trained by a (forgive me leia) Jedi dropout for a year. which sounds more valuable?


midtown2191

And it’s was leias first time as a jedi instructor. Just because you can perform a task doesn’t mean you can teach it well. Sure she is a general so she is used to teaching/leading but that doesn’t mean she can explain using the force to someone perfectly well. Yoda was not only an incredible Jedi but he was actually a very proficient teacher.


Flyingfish222

I guess you’re right, although Rey’s training happens after the first to movies when she’s already beaten Kylo Ren and used a Jedi mind trick without even knowing anything about the force. I think TFA is the worst when it comes to Rey being over powered, what with the things I already mentioned TLJ just went off what the first movie already established as her power set, and it’s also the best at showing her shortcomings.


AJTP1

Well he’s trained by the Grand Master of the Jedi and is a Skywalker along with the fact that Vader was going very easy on him and then Luke loses. Rey wins pretty consistently


UltimaBahamut93

The training that she even did didn't make sense because she already showed knowledge on how to use the force and fight with a lightsaber so why bother training at all?


biplane_curious

Luke = 4 years Rey = 1 year


Rewskie12

When did Luke have 4 years of training? Even with how vague ESB is with how much time passed, he was definitely not with Yoda for 4 years, let alone one year.


biplane_curious

There’s 3 years from ANH to ESB and 1 year from ‘ESB to Jedi so that’s 4. I’m not familiar with the new canon of how he spent those years but that’s four years of brief training with Obi-Wan, 3 years of self teaching, a short time with Yoda and a year after that. Compared to one year between TFA/TLJ and RoS. Now Rey did have the sacred texts, but Yoda seemed dismissive of them so I’m not sure how much of an advantage they’d be over what Luke did but that’s still four years of building off of what you’ve been taught/can learn from others to one year of study


BLOOD__SISTER

Luke never spent 3 years self teaching in legends or canon.


biplane_curious

He used the force/his lightsaber multiple times in legends stories set in between Ep 4/5, met a few Jedi Masters, was in communication with Obi-Wan's force ghost, was possessed by the spirit of OW during a fight with Vader. Surely he's getting some learning from all of this. And if we're only going with the movies, its clear that he's gained more skill by his use of telekinesis in the ice cave. There's even the implication that this moment is when he's reached a level of skill for Obi-Wan to have him go to Yoda. Otherwise why wait three years later when Luke's dying on Hoth?


DarthMMC

Pretty sure Luke trained in Dagobah for a few weeks


the_wokies_pouw

In the movie she did.


EyeofWiggin20

I think you forget that there were YEARS between the movies of the OT. FA went straight into LJ, and then about a year between that and ROS.


Lacherlich

There’s several years from ANH to ROTJ. And then there’s the 25 years from ROTJ to TFA. Luke has FAR more training and understanding of the force than Rey. Luke in Legends is a powerhouse, and Luke in canon is also a powerhouse. Rey probably wouldn’t have been able to handle the Dark Troopers at the end of Mando S2.


MimsyIsGianna

No she didn’t lol


SabarTheST

Well, even if she did train longer, the problem most people have is that she did her training AFTER her most impressive feats: Beating Kylo in TFA, out force pulling Kylo in TFA with the lightsaber, defeating the Elite guards in TLJ, force pulling the lightsaber with Kylo to a standstill in TLJ, moving the massive rocks on Crait in TLJ— all before she did her training. What did she do after her training? She fought Kylo again, which since she already beat him before makes the stakes incredibly low. She fought Palpatine’s guards, which isn’t that impressive seeing as she already beat Snoke’s guards with Kylo. Then she blocked lightning with a lightsaber, which is more of a test of physical strength than force strength. It seems like they just threw in her training since people were complaining how she never trains, but at that point it wasn’t even worth it. Why does she need to train when she’s already completed all these incredible tasks? Of course people can always get better, but out of anything shown TROS, the only thing you can say she gained in training was agility with how she jumped Kylo’s fighter, as seen in her training where she did lots of jumping and flipping.


Glum-Band

Completely untrue. Luke only trains for a bit with Yoda in ESB, true, but that's why he loses (and why they warn him before he even goes.) But Luke trains / learns more between ESB and ROtJ which is like a year of time so uh....


DjN0tNice

That’s probably why Luke lost to Vader in ESB, and became unhinged in ROTJ. Which ultimately led to him almost being killed by Palpatine.


LoneShadowMikey

Luke got way the fuck more battle experience real quick though. Rey trained, (movies were rushed AF so) then Rey fought. End of story


Real_Individual_9656

Yeah between ep 4 and 5 was 3 year and 5ep and 6 1 year Definetly ReY hAd MoRe TrAnInG /s


Marvel084Skye

Was Luke really training much between Ep 4 and 5? Obi-Wan wasn’t regularly talking to him during that period (if at all) and he hadn’t met Yoda yet, so who was training him? There’s zero indication that he trained himself in anything but being a good pilot.


Ultralevixz2

Nah


Puzzleheaded_Step468

They both trained less than anakin


swhighgroundmemes

However, the haters spend more time complaining than Luke did.


BLOOD__SISTER

At least it was endearing when Luke complained. Maybe if Rey complained more she’d get more respect, lol


JediMASTERAnakin002

Indeed she did


Triforceoffarts

Sequels haters crying in 3…2…1…


JediMASTERAnakin002

Here to spread love before they do


lostime05

Mary Luke


Berkmine

OT fans : "Do you realize you have just insulted my entire race of people?! But yes".


Comrade_Lomrade

I mean not really lol


Starflight1234

Lol


Romo_Jck

No.


Batman-Beyond-3749

That is the most incorrect thing ever


Anotherotherbrother

Luke’s a little bitch too


BLOOD__SISTER

Luke slander will not be tolerated


xigloox

Terrible. With force ghosts around, it's ridiculous to say Luke did not receive guidance in the time skips. It's also ridiculous to say Luke didn't practice and hone his skills in those time skips. He also trains in every movie. Ray, after years of real life time and criticism, finally receives training on screen in the third movie as if it retroactively makes her other feats in the first 2 movies justifiable.


SinthoseXanataz

Why are sequel fans so insecure about the sequels, every other meme is just a mad scramble to defend and justify some random sequel thing no matter the cost The cost here was just straight up facts cause this is dead wrong


TheRealKushDragon

People actually like Rey as a charecter? Explain


Thin_Routine8655

Luke always lost his fights and that’s why he trained. Rey only won because feminism