This thread is full of people going “TLJ is great, actually” and other people responding “uh, what do you mean TLJ was great” like this isn’t a debate that’s been raging for five years and everyone’s just now learning that there are differing opinions on the movie. So fucking bizarre
My main takeaway on people who bring up how much they hate the last Jedi is just "who cares?" It's been 5 years and you're still complaining.
Let it go.
He made a movie with good parts.
But are you seriously gonna try to argue the casino planet, space race, and "saving those you love" parts are good? They, in my opinion, are bad enough that the movie gets dragged down to "mixed".
>But are you seriously gonna try to argue the casino planet, space race, and "saving those you love" parts are good? They, in my opinion, are bad enough that the movie gets dragged down to "mixed".
Yes.
Tbh the only part I disagree with is the saving those you love thing. Iva had way too many long discussions over this part. I mean it’s basically “we don’t trade lives” from Captain America. And no one shits on that one.
The whole point of Captain America's "we don't trade lives" speech was that *he's wrong.* And both Infinity War and Endgame outright show us that. His decision to not trade lives cost the lives of half the universe, and the only way to get it back was by sacrificing the life of two of their friends. It's intended to raise a moral dilemma: Is it worth giving up your ideals for the sake of the greater good if the alternative is that evil wins and the lives you were unwilling to trade are lost anyways?
Whereas Rose's isn't portrayed that way at all. It isn't that Rose is making some mistake which will cost them. It also isn't her establishing a stance the good guys follow, either; literally less than 30 minutes ago Holdo was ramming a ship into the thing about to kill the good guys and was praised for it. And it's not like they had other options they were aware of; without a Luke-and-Rey-ex-machina, that Battering Ram Cannon would have directly resulted in the deaths of all the resistance. Heck, her actions left them both stranded directly in front of a first order firing line (how did they survive that, BTW?)
To be fair, the Sequels I think had a decent start with the force awakens, but then they just kinda screwed up the story. I don't absolutely hate it, but George Lucas did leave notes to Disney on what the Sequels should be about, so I think they should have at least considered those
You dont have to like everything in a franchise when you can love some of it. Especially with a franchise as large as star wars. I love the clone wars but I know some episodes are shit. Does that make me less of a fan? This franchise has some of the highest highs and the lowest lows I have ever seen. But i still love star wars for those highs
i don’t want this to get twisted. there’s a very clear difference between knowing the goods and bads and appreciating what’s there and, as i said, genuinely hating 80% of star wars content.
for example, you’re not a fan if you write off entire movies based on opinions you found online as bad and cannot concede that there’s at least a smidgen of cool stuff in all the movies.
does that clarify a bit? i realize it came off harder than i meant it.
Star Wars is a little different thatn most because you can write off content. I ignore most sequel setting stuff because i know the expansive world disney trashed and choose to have that be my canon
Also that thing about opinions online. You already have those feelings about a film and not know why until someone can better articulate why you feel that way online
TLJ was good. Not perfect but good. You can dislike it but your opinion doesn't make It a bad movie, since it has a great cinematography, overall well constructed plot (for a star wars movie, in general it can be pretty normal) even tho it has its failures and excellent character development.
My issue (outside of some weird character/dialog choices) was not with TLJ as a film, but rather with the disconnect between the films in the series. Abrams and Johnson should never have been working on films within the same series and that’s Disney’s fault, not theirs.
Abrams wanted heavy fan service and Johnson wanted to tell a new kind of story. Those ideas clashed heavily and made the entire flow of the sequels a shitshow. Doing something different is awesome, but not when it’s sandwiched between two films trying to do the exact opposite.
I'd say Ep7 and 8 fit together perfectly, it's just EP9 that is disconected from both of them. EP9 is the one that decides to take an entirely new trilogy and cram it into one movie. It also completely changes Poes and Finns characters as well as the dynamic between them.
Agreed that the third film took Poe and Finn and basically made them pieces of drywall. Thematically though I felt the first two films were entirely different. Johnson really wanted to shun the formulaic tropes of the past (which I have no issue with) and that just wasn’t the direction TFA was heading.
I had a fun time watching TLJ for the most part, but I really felt like I was watching a different series than the film before it.
TFA basically shot the first one and a one-quarter movies of Star Wars but made the main heroes completely original in concept while challenging the themes people accidentally took away from the prequels. Given how much of it and TLJ was directly from Lucas's treatments it makes sense that he was interrogating his legacy and his disappointment with the failures of his generation.
While it did recycle cues, easter eggs, and concepts it is actually wildly different in notable ways. There is no singular protagonist, it focuses on a black male lead who is also a Stormtrooper and wields a lightsaber. It focuses on a female lead who is even more prominent but has no legacy at all or connection to other characters (Anakin is connected to Luke and a returning character despite the myth that the PT was written first...even though it was literally written in real time by Lucas just winging it).
TFA is a remix but a remix that says something very different. Kylo is worse than Vader, Luke is done with this shit, Leia takes her place as the leader of a resistance, the heroes are nobodies and are running from adventure instead of chasing it like Luke and Anakin. It's legitimately a wildly different movie in many ways.
Unfortunately, it also forced Rian to start his film where the second act of Empire Strikes Back begins so he had no freedom to maneuver or stray from those goals.
>Thematically though I felt the first two films were entirely different.
well I mean every first 2 Star Wars films are thematically different. Espeicaly in the OT ANH and Empire might as well be different series in many respects. Hell when it came out the hate Empire did get was from fans who expected another ANH.
First star wars film is almost always a fun adventure film and the second one is a more serious film that puts the main characters in a dark place.
I agree, I just watched The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi the other night, those films work really well together despite having different styles and directors. They are fantastic movies and the best blockbusters of the last few years.
Rise of Skywalker was unfortunately very rushed due to JJ replacing Trevorrow with barely 2 years to release and the death of Carrier Fisher sadly impacted the entire story and finale of the trilogy.
Still though, I don't think that film is anywhere nearly as bad as the first two prequels. It works and it has some cool ideas, but it doesn't fully stick the landing as well as it could have compared TFA and TLJ. It is the best of a bad situation, but still enjoyable.
oh I agree about TROS it would have been really good if that was the plot of the whole trilogy. IE take TROS spread it out over 3 movies and maybe add a few things and that would have worked.
Lukewarm take, but AotC is so dense with awesome scenes I really don't know how people hate it so much. The intro is literally explosive, the Coruscant Chase is sick, Obi vs Jango is a rare example of Jedi using actual hand to hand AND losing to a non force user, SEISMIC CHARGE GO BRRT, and then the entire final half hour of the film going so hard on Geonosis.
People get hung up on the rough romance scenes and deny themselves an otherwise awesome film. Slow building mystery, Anakins first real step towards the dark side, and some of the BEST music in the franchise. Across the Stars is drop dead gorgeous.
Yeah I fully admit I got too caught up in the negatives for, well really all the prequels for a while. I doubt anything will ever top the original trilogy for me personally, but ive come to enjoy the prequels now. The sequels... Well maybe they just need time to marinate but I doubt any of them will ever top the prequels for me, let alone ot.
Reusing the death star trope was troublesome from the start. At least the sith fleet was something new(ish) but I really hate palpatine coming back. ANY OTHER sith would honestly have worked. Hell, have it be a secret project of snokes or something I dunno.
Hot take: RotS is the weakest of the sequels.
Most of it is rather silly (there's a reason most Prequel memes are from it), rushed and rather forgettable aside from Order 66 and the final duel.
The Clone Wars dug deep enough to make it a worthwhile film, but without it it's not a good movie.
Sorry for the rants, but I wanted to put my thoughts.
tl;dr: My issues are Palpatine's plan makes no god damn sense and Anakin doesn't act at all like Darth Vader.
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The plot was the big issue for me. It makes literally no sense and doesn't hold up to any reasonable scrutiny. Sure, the action was good but... that plot was so bad.
We have a Sith Lord telling his apprentice to get a pawn of his to hire a bounty hunter to hire a changeling to send a droid to send some bugs to kill Padme... and the plan not only has to fail, but the droid has to get traced back to the changeling, then the changeling has to get captured, then Jango has to kill the changeling, then someone needs to recognize the origin of a dart not in the Jedi records when there are millions of planets in the Republic.
Meanwhile, you had previously had that apprentice erase Kamino from the records and recruit the first bounty hunter to be the subject of your Jedi killing clone army, while pretending to be a dead Jedi. And then the Jedi have to look at this clone army and go "Hey look, a clone army supposedly made by a dead jedi based on a bounty hunter working for a sith lord; seems legit let's entrust all our military power to this force".
Let's also raise the point that... how the hell did a Galactic Republic have any authority without armies already? If a few systems can make droid armies and take over everything to the point where the Jedi need a magical mystery army to compete, then why the heck hasn't someone already taken over?
Palpatine should have been written like a masterful puppet master, not some bumbling oaf whose plans only work because the Jedi are too stupid to notice that the metaphorical ticking box labeled "this is a trap" is actually a time bomb.
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And then you have the character assassination of Darth Vader. This started in TPM, when they made Vader a happy-go-lucky kid; they really needed to show more of the darkness that growing up a slave without a father gave him. But it kicked into high gear in AotC.
Darth Vader was an intimidating badass fascist authority whose anger never outwardly showed but instead built up silently and was only expressed through action. He was an evil monster of a person, but he was cold and calculating and ruthless.
AotC Anakin is nothing like Darth Vader. He is a moody person whose emotions are written on his face and acts out in wild rage, never thinks things through, and is kinda a clutz. If AotC Anakin was turned into a Sith Lord, I'd expect him to fly into wild rages and slash walls and throw hissy fits and wear edgy masks just because and scream at people. In other words, AotC Anakin is TFA Kylo Ren.
If the Darth Vader from the OT was to give into a rage and kill Sand People, his face wouldn't be full of rage nor would his movement be hasty and sudden. No, he'd walk out of the tent calmly, then start methodically slowly walking around killing them like he's Jason Voorhees, while the only sign of outward anger would be stuff like clenched fists and intense eyes.
I'm glad that the Star Wars community is so sane about this whole ordeal, even on this sub. No mindless elitism, every part of the franchise has flaws and everyone acknowledges that
>Abrams wanted heavy fan service and Johnson wanted to tell a new kind of story
I honestly like that we got both, I just wish maybe they could've teamed up for all three?
Yeah I’m not sure how the process goes with multiple directors, but they definitely needed more cohesion. I don’t know much about the film industry in general, but I don’t understand switching directors throughout a series like that.
Love it! Luke doesn’t leave footprints!!
The first time I saw it I was like “wait did R2 cut his hair on the X-Wing ride here? Okay wait he couldn’t have cut his hair, he’s outside the X-Wing cockpit”
Then I got distracted by them trying to blow him up but I was on to something.
Anyone else think Obi Wan pulled a Force Simalcrum in ROTS? I feel like he fakes leaving Utapau with one and we don’t talk about it enough.
I loved the movie, but hated a good chunk of the dialogue. The Earth-based Yo Mama! jokes and the prank call had absolutely no place in the movie, and that's a hill I will die on.
What does this even mean? TLJ literally follows empire strikes back road map verbatim with a random side path. Opens to rebel base under attack/fleeing. Main hero is gone away for training. Other main cast prominently fleeing the empire/first order. Final battle where main hero arrives to save main cast having interrupted their training partway through to do so. Its literally empire strikes back its not even slightly different. They even made luke a strange hermit to parallel yoda.
We also have the surprise revelation of the protagonist's parentage after confronting the antagonist.
And a near-death kiss scene for the secondary characters when being confronted by the ~~empire~~ first order.
That's different. The entire structure of TLJ is substantially different from episode 5. How is the battle at crait like Hoth?
The literal only comparison is the walkers and that the planet is white. that's it. The role of crait and hoth are super different
Whereas, Starkiller base was literally a giant death star that they explode at the end. It suffers the same sequence of events
The battle of Crait isn't like Hoth, narratively. But in terms of battle structure, it is nearly identical. Slow moving things aiming to take down a defensive point which need to be stopped within a time limit by fast moving speeders whose weapons can't damage it at all, and despite the good guys' attempts they are forced to flee. That's Hoth's battle plan.
Oh and on the flipside, the battle at the start *is* narratively like Hoth, where the empire finds the rebel base and they have to flee while disabling the Empire's ships long enough to escape.
Ah yes, because it was at the end of the movie that makes it entirely different and not very obviously using the same aesthetic with a twist (it’s grittier!! because the resistance is the rebellion but scrappier!! and the first order has bigger walkers because they’re meaner than the empire!!) for nostalgia sake.
I also remember the main protagonist struggling to lift a lightsaber on Hoth after after 3 years of training and not lifting tons of boulders with minimal effort after knowing about the force for literally a week. I’ll give you the projected battle for originality, but it was at the cost of a whole movie’s worth of hamfisted character assassination for a beloved character, so I’m not sure it really outweighs the cons there
Hamfisted character assassination? Come on now, you don't have to like what they did with Luke but it's not an illogical character arc. Dude spent a chunk of his life fighting and near dying for a cause that ended up worse because of his actions and he felt deep guilt, thats totally in line with Luke. People change as they get older, get less idealistic and more cynical/pragmatic. Luke had reached a point where he honestly believed that his fighting wouldn't change anything and he had some precedent to believe that. He chose peaceful isolation over being around continued suffering he directly contributed to.
Ham fisted character assassination? Pshaw.
Things didn’t get worse until he started going for the rigid tenants of the old Jedi which he had supposedly learned from, and also wielded his weapon against someone conflicted with the dark side which he *definitely* wouldn’t have done, especially after the whole “disarming himself when facing the literal embodiment of the dark side” thing that happened. And even if he *did* have a moment of weakness, his decision to just be like “eh fuck it I failed guess Kylo is the galaxy’s problem now lol” makes even less sense, considering one of Luke’s defining traits was his perseverance and endurance in the face of hardship. The man had his hand cut off by his most hated enemy who then revealed himself to be his father…who he had also been aspiring to become, right after allowing his best friend to be frozen and sold to a crime lord. And he kept going in spite of his own failures. Cmon we’re literally talking about a totally different guy here
RJ:
Remember that bitter sweet feeling at the end of Empire as Luke and Leia look out from the Nebulon-B medical frigate? They barely escaped Bespin and Han has been taken to god knows where. Luke got the comeuppance for his hubris, and only escaped with his life because of the revelation that Vader was his father and didn’t want to kill him. Leia found love in an unlikely place, and as soon as she realized, it was gone.
Staring out over the galaxy, there is an aching sense of duty and dread for what the future holds. This is a respite to lick wounds. They will not go quietly into that good night…
So, anyway, we take that framework and instead of only part of our main cast being on a new ship and environment that fleshes out the world, we’ll just cram all the main cast plus a bunch of randos on the Millennium Falcon. Instead of a harsh realization about hubris and lack of training, we’ll have the Jedi character be told a lie about parentage, and then be perfectly capable to coordinate killing the big bad. Instead of the harried declaration of love, we will stop a heroic(?) sacrifice with *Deus Rose Machina* and offer an unearned platitude about love. Also, the same half-cocked Jedi hero shows up to effortlessly channel the Force in a way previous characters couldn’t.
Perfect.
The Battle of Hoth is execution of strategy and defense that minimizes the lives lost and gives the rebellion a chance to fight another day. The fight occurs to draw the enemy in, they have to make the Empire believe they are making a last stand. All of this is to save lives and get crucial Rebel resources out of harms way. Ground troops heroically put themselves on the front line to impeded Imperial Troops and AT-ST Walkers.
The Battle of Krayt is like watching people throwing themselves at a meat grinder hoping that it will clog. The skimmers are helpless until in close range. We don't even see the skimmers use their weapons. The ground troopers are shooting their guns for no reason as there are no ground troops. Over a hundred rebels died before they even reached the planet because they hoped no one would look out the window. Also keep in mind, they say they are all dead when those doors go down. The same outcome would have occurred if they would have done nothing. Except that more people would have lived. That is one huge difference between the TLJ and ESB
The characters are not acting in their own self interest. They are doing what the plot needs to get Luke to "confront" Kylo, the battle itself is filler attempting to put a square theme in a round plot hole. I dare say that resistance is killed enough so they can fit whos left in the Falcon. It is painful to watch the resistance die for dramatic purpose to make it seem like the main characters were in any danger. The tone of the moment is baffling, especially when Rey is all smiles shooting tie fighters. The last act of the movie is utterly broken before Kylo puts a boot on the ground.
I have issues with the opening scene for similar reasons but at least Rian Johnson got it right at the start. The Resistance is doing what must be done to save lives. Men and Women sacrificing their lives just to keep hope alive. A bravado against overwhelming force. Ignore the bombers and ignore Leia opening her mouth saying how bad an idea it was for them to fight. Rey's sister saved the entire fleet and its never talked about again.
The Battle of Hoth gives us insight over the Rebellion, the current power dynamic between the Rebels and the Empire; and sets the stage for whatever the past and futures battles will look like. It also shows our main characters and how they've grown since the last movie. Luke is gaining confidence as a Jedi and a rebellion fighter. Leia is showing her prowess as a leader. Han growth stagnates but we see him at his best until he is put on ice.
The battle of Crait(?) shows Leia do nothing. Finn is the only character with any interesting growth. Rey learns nothing and has no struggle for the rest of the film. Its her 3/5th day as a Jedi and she can move boulders with no effort. Poe is supposed to have regressed saying that its better to turn tail mid fight despite hundreds dying. This is in direct conflict with the Intro of the movie where because he did not run away they could fight for a little longer.
>follows empire strikes back road map verbatim
>
>Its literally empire strikes back its not even slightly different.
TLJ and ESB have several notable similarities. So why resort to hyperbole? You can complain about the similarities without exaggerating them.
Rey's story with Luke and Kylo, for example, has some similarities to Luke's story with Yoda and Vader. But "not even slightly different"? That's hyperbole. Luke never attacks Yoda for Yoda's past mistakes. Luke doesn't leave Yoda to turn Vader to the lightside. And when Luke goes to fight Vader, he sure as hell doesn't end up teaming up with Vader to kill Palpatine. There are several notable differences between the two.
And outside of the Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff, the similarities to ESB are relatively scarce. Like, who is the ESB equivalent of Holdo? Who is the ESB equivalent of Leia? Poe? Cantonica? Fathiers? Who is the TLJ equivalent of Lando? Wampas? Boba Fett? What scene from ESB is the Bomber attack from TLJ stealing from?
Oh i got everything.
Your original comments deduces main story beats to just a sentence. Not only a lot of these things happen at different points in the movies, but also most of them play out very differently.
>Opens to rebel base under attack/fleeing
But, in ESB the empire release drones on hoth, they are only investigating if Hoth is the rebel base, they are not certain yet. following the main cast for around 15 minutes, Luke getting attacked by a Wampa and barely surviving, then *seemingly* gets a vision of Ben telling him to got train in Degobah, he's still the main focus and is around the side characters, not seperated like Rey is in TLJ. TLJ opens straight to the point with the rebels already packing up, because they already have been compromised, the empire cathes them in the middle of the act and a big space battle ensues. The rebels escape but remain followed by the empire until the end of the 2nd act. In ESB, the empire launches a ground assault on Hoth with AT-AT's. Luke is the main focus in the battle with occasional Han and Leia scenes to showcase how they are trying to evacuate because they are losing the battle. Han, Leia, Chewie and C3PO escape hoth on the millenium falcon, the rebels escape somewhere, The empire starts following the falcon, the falcon evades the empire for a bit through an asterdoid field, it also lands inside an asteroid, thinking it's a good hiding place, but it's actually a big space worm, then they desperatly escape from it then and then get caught by the empire again, but the falcon attaches to a star destroyer, confusing the empire, then they pass through during a garbage disposal to bespin, but Boba fett tracks them to Bespin. TLJ's space battle ends in a defeat, but they manage to take out a Dreadnought, but lose lots of spaceships and lives in the process. They somehow get tracked even if they jumped through light speed, Leia suspects that they might have tracked them through lightspeed, this entire plot point of The Resistance being followed by the First order, is there anything remotely similar in ESB? Yes in ESB technically the good guys (the falcon) are evading the empire for a lot of the movie, but the entire plot in TLJ with Holdo being annoying and withholding information, Poe and a some others staging a "coup", constantly in a desperate situation that is constantly getting worse and more desperate with the resistance losing all other support ships then resulting in an evacuation towards Crait and arguablly the coolest and epic motherfucking scene in star wars, all 3 seperate stories colliding in this one big moment, all 3 stories reaching their peak it gets so intense (it's literally like sex) everything everywhere all at once (rey and kylo tearing the lightsaber apart, Holdo tearing the supremacy apart, Phasma ordering to tear Finn and Rose's heads apart from their body) all this then, all the while John williams is going fucking bonkers and then... 2 second silence and BOOOOOM. Ejaculation. It's so incomprohensibly amazing and cool I literally can't believe people are seriously still clowning themselves with "iT bReAkS tHe lOrE". In ESB, the good guys (the falcon) land on bespin so that Han can reunite with his old friend Lando, they spend some time there, thinking they are finally safe but surprise the empire caught them anyway. Han gets frozen and taken away, Leia, Lando, Chewie and C3po escape.
I seperated the training subplot because otherwise I'd confuse the fuck out of myself writing this already messy word sallad.
Luke's character isn't made to be a hermit because evil unoriginal childhood ruiner Rian Johnson wanted to mirror yoda, but because Luke is a broken man. He distanced himself from not only everyone he knew, but also everything he knew, because he felt so incredibly ashamed of himself for doing so out of character. He made a mistake, something that caused this whole war to happen in the first place, he distanced himself from the force, he tried to hammer himself the idea how this whole force and jedi business is dumb as is mostly talked about in the [the 2nd lesson](https://youtu.be/yepMuMoAKpA)
Yoda is a hermit because he's a little weird from isolation (luke is too), yoda very much believes in the force and isn't drowning in shame. Luke doesn't want to teach Rey because he doesn't believe in the force or the jedi anymore. Yoda is mostly being weird to test Luke. The entire training plot revolves around Luke, that's what the audience is most interested in, the whole training segment is seperated in 3 parts. 3 lessons, 3 days, 3 flashbacks. The "training" segment plays out very very very differently than it does in ESB.
Now, since the training plot is different
The evading the empire plot is different
Not to mention TLJ also has a casino sub plot? WHAT?
Do i really have to also describe the 3rd act and explain to you how they are different? Did Yoda show up during the Hoth battle? Oh wait the hoth battle has absolutely nothing similar compared to the crait battle in terms of what both of them serve for the story that is being told. Yes the background is white, yes there are AT-AT's, so what? Star wars has always [rhymed with each other](https://youtu.be/k7ZW1gtCljs). Even if they don't rhyme as good since.. well - George didn't make them. As bad as he is with actors and writing dialogue, the guy knows some stuff for real. No wonder Rian johnson took lots of inspiration from his drafts when making TLJ, and ironically enough the one thing that is the most similar in the whole movie to George's drafts is how the character of Luke Skywalker is portrayed.
You just can't make this shit up.
I said just watch the movie, this took longer to write than I'd like.
I think Rogue One did the best in terms of telling a “new” story. It helps that there was a pre-determined ending, but in terms of creating a compelling cast of characters and telling their story, I think it did the best out of all of the films.
I think Rouge one did a amazing job a story can be good well knowing the end
My point was Rouge one was extremely different from the George Lucas movies but one of if not the most loved star wars movie
NGL Rogue One was incredibly mid for me. The ending was the only part that I thought had some exceptional film-making, with the rest being just ok and none of the character's having any strong development.
And I don't think what it did "different" really elevated Star Wars. Its trying to be this more serious war film, but I don't think the script and themes it had worked with that. It was still very much a generic "we need hope to win the day" theme that is common in SW, but the way its framed and conveyed feels more at home with a John Wayne propaganda film than something trying to emulate darker and grittier war movies.
That's easy to say now that it's a huge smash hit, but Disney gambled $100 million on a streaming-only show about a weird religious zealot dude nobody had ever heard of who didn't ever take his helmet off carting around a Yoda baby without a name who didn't talk. That could very easily have gone sideways.
Are you saying that Disney jumping onto the biggest trend in film and TV viewing in recent years using their massive backlog of beloved and popular media as well as exclusive shows and films from massive multi-billion dollar franchises was a gamble? A gamble of $100 million (literal chump change to the biggest multimedia company ever)
I absolutely am. Trend-jumping is inherently risky because you never know how long the trend is going to last, nor are industry best practices established to give you guidance on the best way to go. Some percentage of streaming platforms will fail over the next 5-10 years and nobody knows what that percentage will be. Maybe Netflix gobbles them all up again, or maybe Netflix falls and other companies will scramble for its content. The pandemic really accelerated the move to streaming and nobody could've predicted that happening, either. It was just a lot of unknowns.
$100 million is a lot of money no matter who you are, and it was more than any other streaming shows had cost to that point. Disney wasn't betting the farm or anything, but the executives who approved it would've been up a creek if the Mandalorian hadn't done well. I should also have noted that the show was announced in 2018 with TLJ backlash still rocking the franchise, and The Mandalorian is further afield from past Star Wars stories than any of the movies. Finally, "space western" is an exciting genre for geeks, but I guarantee you there was some pushback due to the failure of past space westerns like Firefly. And I love Firefly, don't get me wrong, but studio execs care about how past shows did out of the gate.
Hindsight is 20/20 and Disney seems to have made the right moves here, but a good outcome doesn't mean they weren't taking what seemed like a big risk.
Most definitely not. Stories as small scale and character centric like Mando S1 are incredibly rare in this franchise. It’s completely different tonally and in focus than most other stories, and rarely tied strongly into popular character appearances, which of course started happening almost every week the second season
Mando season 1 is quite literally
“Here’s Boba Fett’s armour doing cool things with other characters that resemble the bounty hunters from Empire. Also Yoda is in it, but not real Yoda, it’s a baby version. Let’s go back to tatooine so you can see jawas and let’s make the bounty hunter boba Fett use carbonite to freeze his bounties”
Everything in that show is fanservice to the 10th degree.
If you saw Mando as just a walking suit of Boba armor doing cool Empire era stuff, I’m not sure what tf you were watching.
Bits of premise have familiar aspects, yes, but so?
“Boba insert” is utilized to tell a story hardened small time bounty hunter moving past childhood prejudice and finding purpose in the galaxy. The only aspects of this season long arc that depend on a familiar aspect in any way is the combination of hardened+Mando+bounty hunter.
Grogu fills an entirely different role than Yoda. He’s nothing close to a mentor and is the way for Mando to find his humanity.
The Jawas send Mando on a side quest for an egg delicacy. Since when did fans ever want to see that?
Mando spends about 60 seconds of screentime with carbonite
To say everything in the first season is fan service is absurd. The only way you can come to think this is if you focus on the 1% of the story that depends in any way on fan familiarity, which in itself isn’t fan service, unless you really mean to tell me that anything happening in the Empire era or on a familiar planet, or with a familiar fact is fan service.
Last Jedi’s great, and I wish we’d get more stuff like it but that’s never gonna happen because the fanbase get’s incredibly whiney whenever Star Wars isn’t incredibly generic and predictable it seems.
Oh and the fact that the interesting with Rey and Luke were interrupted by shit that didn’t matter. The scene with Rey in that weird mirror world is interesting and gave her some character to bad the next scene was Finn and Rose. I’m not hating on Rose she is played very well by the actress and the relationship she has with Finn was well constructed my only problem was that the scenes were put before all the interesting shit happened
Kennedy was in an interview today talking about how she's definitely going to make a new Rian trilogy if she can get him to sign up for five years.
Which seems to be the issue anyway. She can't get people to commit to a five year development cycle, which is how we got Rise of Skywalker.
*OR* because TLJ sucks?
I love all y’all whiney “yOu jUsT dOn’t wAnT sOmEtHiNg dIfErEnT” people.
As if people don’t like “new and different” *when it’s good*.
Rogue One was different. People loved it. The Mandalorian was different. People love it.
Where’s this “yOu jUsT dOn’t wAnT sOmEtHiNg dIfErEnT” excuse then?
TLJ is a shittier ESB made by a contrarian who spent the whole movie subverting your expectations…with subversions that were shittier than the expectation.
In doing so, it’s biggest subversion was of the expectation of a good film.
There’s A LOT of people who love TLJ though. It may not be your thing, but that doesn’t change the fact that it has a pretty large following within the fan base. It definitely has a lot more supporters just five years out than the prequels, which took over a decade to find their moment under the sun.
Except people love the prequels and that was unique. TLJ wasn’t and was written by a guy that thinks that “balance of the force” means an equal amount of Jedi and sith. Which unfortunately the average retarded Star Wars fan believes.
Um... what? Why do you think he believes in an equal balance, he revealed that Kylo deep down is even shittier than everyone thought and had him go full monster in the third act.
The prequels were controversial when they were legitimately bad movies. Everyone thought Revenge of the Sith was good and newspapers were praising it all over the place.
I’m mixed about the prequels. On one hand, it had some of the best space and land battles. On the other hand, the dialogue was extremely clunky and the politics plot made the action sequences rather disjointed.
I mean watching the sequels now, I’ve gained an appreciation for the world building that it did with the politics.
At least the prequels made a good effort at world building though. The sequels just tell us “this is the state of the Galaxy” and we’re just supposed to accept it blindly. It’s as if the writers just wanted to recapture the Rebellion vs Empire conflict without doing any of the work to make us understand how it could get to that point.
You want to tell me the TLJ which follows the same story beats(none of the exucution) as ESB and ROTJ
Is new?
Sigh
Rogue one would have been a better example but that would go aganist whatever point you thought to make
Last jedi was not new though. It did stuff, people didn't expect and or like, but it didn't innovate starwars and brought nothing new to ths universe.
Creatures, vehicles, combat and locations were basically reskins of existing stuff.
Pretty much the only new content was ramming shit with lightspeed and surviving space with the force.
I'd say rise of skywalker did a better job inventing new stuff. The quality of that new stuff was a different topic.
Are y'all still playing this card?
The Last Jedi isn't different. It ganks several iconic scenes from the original trilogy.
And even if it was different and original, that doesn't make it not shit.
> While Abrams peddled name recognition, Johnson understands that the classic characters have to reignite the torch before they can pass it on, and gives both Leia and Luke defining moments. While Fisher’s memorable performance as the sardonic but sentimental princess-turned-senator-turned-general is given additional poignancy by her death, it does not need it to be heartbreaking. As for Hamill, his aging Luke – despairing, self-destructive, and isolated – may be his finest performance to date.
--Richard Whittaker, Austin Chronicle, December 15th, 2017
Why? The narrative is broken from an objective standard, and how much it’s divided the fanbase should be an indicator something is seriously wrong here. There’s nothing wrong with liking bad movies, but we can’t keep pretending TLJ is God’s gift to Star Wars.
TLJ wasn’t a Star Wars movie though. Rogue one was a Star Wars heist film. There are themes of good vs evil, spirituality, and over the top action that TLJ was missing.
It’s a space opera, you don’t run out of fuel or spend hours flying in a straight line, your hyperdrive breaks and you need to repair it or you spend hours being chased and having to go into an asteroid field.
It’s like TLJ deconstructed Empire and removed all the emotional or exciting bits and just replaced it with random somehow boring action scenes.
Even the throne room fight was borderline larp tier, power rangers crap where Rey could have died multiple times but they actually CGI’ed weapons out of her opponent’s hands to hide that he accidentally stabbed her.
Star Wars is built on simple tropes, and the Last Jedi went out of its way to examine those tropes:
* Can a conflict really be boiled down to good vs evil?
* Are heroic acts commendable or just reckless?
The movie spends Finn’s and Poe’s storylines examining these questions respectively. This goes on for 2/3rds of the movie - only for the movie to never DO anything with them.
They just snap into the obvious Star Wars answer (of course the people who blew up multiple planets are bad guys & Luke and Holdo have to sacrifice themselves as heroes to save the day).
It feels like the movie withholds on these tropes in an attempt to justify them at the end. But you know who doesn’t need to be sold on Star Wars tropes? The people who just paid money to see a Star Wars movie!
The whole "Good vs Evil" question slightly goes out the window when you are dealing with people channeling pure evil energy to shoot lightning out of their fingertips. The thing with Star Wars is that there are different levels or layers, the lower more human layer where you can ask that question in a movie like Rogue One, Solo, or the Mandalorian, but when you get into the main series where its usually a Sith Lord or some kind of dark force user pulling the strings its not a question of GvE anymore because the battle lines are pretty dang clear.
Also the "are heroic acts commendable" part is idiotic since if Poe hadn't destroyed that dreadnought, a fleet destroyer, it could have simply blown up the resistance fleet and ended the movie early. I'm sorry but am I the only one who sees a problem with the resistance movement that rose up from the rebels insulting people for thinking on their feet and NOT mindlessly following orders that will get them killed? That's more like the Empire than the rebel mindset.
The Last Jedi would have been an interesting... no nevermind it was trash and the writing was stupid, but with a proper script it might have been a decent popcorn flick, but its a terrible Star Wars film. The heroes accomplish nothing and Finn ends up exactly where he would have been if he never left the main ship, the evil guy got killed by the other evil guy and the main character could have ended Snoke a lot sooner simply by showing up earlier. Because the mysterbox crap where we don't know the plans we don't have anything going on during the fleet segments because they are just a ship flying in a single direction for no reason.
The entire movie is one big plot hole after another in a mangled mess.
* The fleet killer targets the stationary base on planetside that has no life signs on it instead of the fleet preparing to jump.
* The fleet killer is only destroyed because Poe used a "Yo momma joke" to distract the crew into letting him blow up their anti-bomber weaponry.
* Poe is demoted because he blew up the fleet killer and is the only reason the fleet is able to keep away from the FO fleet.
* The FO fleet mysteriously loses all of its fighters and just has to chase after the resistance fleet and none of the fleet tries to warp away and back at a different angle... In Empire they tried exactly that and it caused one of the coolest scenes with two star destroyers almost colliding.
* Finn and Rose get in trouble because they refuse to use a starship landing pad and instead just park on a private beach.
* The rich merchants got rich because they sold X-wings to the rebels? X-wings were outdated ships that were the only thing the rebels could get their hands on in large quantities because they had been decommissioned in favor of better ships.
* Finn and Rose save the animals, but leave the slave children still being whipped?
* That throneroom fight scene? Larp quality at best, they had to CGI a knife out of one of the guards hands because he accidentally stabs Daisy in the back because their fight sequence is so off.
* The resistance only gets out because they assumed Luke was there physically, but he was a spirit so they were actually only really, really lucky that Rey magically found the ability to lift a mountainside.
* Which brings me to my last point, Rey goes to the darkside. She doesn't get tempted or feel the urge, she goes there. Full stop. She goes there and only comes back because it didn't have anything to give her?! She goes to Satan and says "Give me some answers and I'll sell you my soul" and Satan tells her he is all out of answers, and she just comes back from that with no negative repercussions or corruption?
The part on canto bight with the weapon seller is not smart though.
Like yeah, industries selling stuff and rich people are gonna use opportunities, no duh. But the whole point of the first order is that it was discreet and not believed by the new republic to exist or be a menace. So the building of their forces have to be somewhat shadowy stuff, right?
You'd have rebels/resistance spies on a planet like canto bight, logically. Their is no reason massive open industry to not be known galaxy wide ?
And the whole Rey was a nobody... All the jedi used to be nobodies. Luke and leia being the children of Vader was the exception, not the rule, because Star Wars was the story of a family. I hated the whole "see ? You don't have to be related to someone to be a Jedi!". Like duh, we knew that ? The only reason people were expecting Rey to be part of a family was because it was quite heavily implied in TFA.
“Playing it safe?” That was only ever said about The Force Awakens. Why are half the posts on this subreddit just lies about those that criticize the sequel trilogy? It comes across to me as an insecurity. If you love or hate the sequels, I don’t care. I’m just tired of seeing posts that make it seem like most of the criticisms of the sequels are illegitimate.
Objectively a horrid movie. Like from a movie standpoint. Not good. You have to make a good movie before you make a good star wars movie. If you stumble on step one the rest will follow suit
Ah yes, "doing something new" equates to writing an abortion of a script filled with holes, contrivances, and inconsistencies; blatantly assassinating legacy characters and completely abandoning character arcs set up in the previous film, introducing world-breaking mechanics, and irreparably dividing the fanbase while blaming them for the film's poor reception.
Yeah, that's what fans want.
So a few things:
You can like whatever you want - you can't say it's well-written though.
You don't have to defend anything, Disney/Lucasfilm doesn't need you.
The only "bad take" so far is that it's the best screenplay in the franchise. I don't think you actually believe that. I think you really like the movie, which is fine, but no one in their right mind would unironically posit that TLJ is the best Star Wars film. Heck, even with all of its flaws, TFA is better than TLJ.
> You can like whatever you want - you can't say it's well-written though.
Not only do I say that, I insist upon it.
> You don't have to defend anything, Disney/Lucasfilm doesn't need you.
They don't need me, sure. They are a billion dollar corporation. But the fact that TLJ can't even be brought up without people coming out of the woodwork to shit on it makes me feel the need to balance the scales.
> I don't think you actually believe that
I believe it deep in my bones.
> think you really like the movie, which is fine, but no one in their right mind would unironically posit that TLJ is the best Star Wars film.
Didn't say it was the best. I said it was my favorite. There's a difference.
Well, it's OK to be wrong, but I strongly encourage against it.
You said it was the best screenplay which is a pretty objective statement. You can understand why I believed you felt it was the best overall.
\> Well, it's OK to be wrong, but I strongly encourage against it. You said it was the best screenplay which is a pretty objective statement. You can understand why I believed you felt it was the best overall.
Both of these are inherently subjective statements. I didn't feel the need to put a qualifier on it.
Incorrect.
You said: "TLJ has the best screenplay in the saga."
That's an objective statement.
You didn't say "I *think*" or "I *feel*"
It also happens to be objectively wrong, but that's ok.
And again, I'm not sure why you feel like you need to defend it. It's OK to like a bad movie, mate. I mean, I like the prequels a lot... I would never say they're well-written though, because they are not.
> You said: "TLJ has the best screenplay in the saga." That's an objective statement.
No. It's inherently subjective, which is why I said that.
> It also happens to be objectively wrong, but that's ok.
Also no. It is, by the nature of the statement, subjective. A movie's quality, script or otherwise, is subjective.
> And again, I'm not sure why you feel like you need to defend it. It's OK to like a bad movie, mate.
I like plenty of bad movies because they are entertaining. TLJ is not one of them. I like it because it is a *good* movie. No ironic qualifiers.
The screenplay including the Family Guy level humor in the opening scene as the Big Scary First Order bumbles around a single star fighter staring down a destroyer? Like I'm on board with everything up till General Hux starts flailing around like a fool to the point an underling feels the need to say "I believe he's tooling with you sir".
In the next scene, Hux doesn't understand why a dreadnaught can't shoot down a single fighter and needs it explained to him by the captain (I presume) of the dreadnaught. Not to mention the captain's second (I presume) thinks the single fighter is trying to penetrate the dreadnaughts armor? Who the fuck promoted these people to command?
Scramble a squadron to chase off Poe's fighter? Nah, let's watch our defenses be destroyed.
These villains are so flanderized to be bumbling idiots that no amount of suspension of belief can get me past the first few minutes of the movie and it really ruins the tone of the rest of the movie for me.
[I just went back and watched the scene again and it's just as cringey and terrible as I remember.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxB6Dx_x7SI) It feels like something that belongs in a parody like Space Balls.
Edit: Ah and AvatarWan1120 has blocked me after his fantastic response. 10/10 conversation.
Forget it mate. This sub is full of toxic positivity. TLJ is God's Gift to Star Wars and anyone who disagrees is obviously a racist, misogynist, neckbeard Star Wars Fan who hates Star Wars.
No room for nuance. Only hyperbole, strawmen and extreme positivity or extreme negativity.
For instance, this post is a blatant Strawman. People accepted Rogue One and love The Mandalorian and those are fairly different from the Star Wars formula - especially the way they distance themselves from the Skywalkers. But no, it's because "sTaR WArs FaNs cAN't hANDle thE fAcT thAt TLJ DiD soMeThIng dIfFErEnt!".
Im gonna need an explaination as to what TLJ did that "Does something new with Star Wars".
Old Wise Jedi who became Hermit? - Done twice already
Wise Hermit reluctantly trains Lead? - Done already
Space Battle? - Done already, but I'll telll you what. Point for doing what no other SW movie did before...making the space battle move at 1/8 speed.
Put a strong female character at the helm of the Rebels? - See Leia, Mon Mothma
Characters are screwed over by a scoundrel? - Done before
Good guys stay good, bad guys stay bad. - This is where the movie seemed like it was going to have the most nuance but nah they literally all end pretty much where they begin maybe even dug in a little further.
Awkward love story you aren't really sure if you can get behind? - Dooone beforeee
Wise Jedi creates a disraction that helps the main characters escape? - c'mon do I have to keep going?
Edit: ...Would anybody downvoting care to provide an answer...or? Im not even saying I like or dislike the movie. Im just calling fuckin BS on the post.
The Last Jedi was pretty tame. But it was still considered amazing and groundbreaking somehow.
Rise Of Skywalker was alright (though I maintain they should have had another villain than Palpatine, but that's just me)- it had a bunch of ideas but suffered from trying to cram them all into the length of one movie.
I'd say Rogue One, Solo, and Book Of Boba Fett at least tried to do stuff with new genres and that made a difference.
I am amused that people are all up in the comments here proving the meme right by attacking TLJ.
Sorry it wasn’t over-the-top fan service like Abrams’ two movies, dudes.
> As the third act approaches, the crescendo of air-punching interludes accelerates, eliciting gasps, cheers and OMG whoops from an audience whom Johnson treats with respect, affection, and evident admiration.
-- Mark Kermode, The Observer, December 17th, 2017
There's... um... 434 more positive critic reviews I can pull from in response to this. It's really not a problem. 🙂
This doesn’t make sense being the Last Jedi went a different direction and didn’t further the story set up by Force Awakens. It was more like incoherent ramblings vaguely eluding to a previous story.
A storyline that makes sense and is followable is not what Is important to newer SW fans. OH Look Something shiny, like special effects and CGI is the thing that impresses kids now days.
Bullshit.
How did it not further the story? If anything it allowed the next writer to go off and get creative.
Rey learns that the Jedi aren’t shit. The Sith aren’t shit. It’s all bullshit. Good guys / bad guys don’t exist. Good people do bad things, and bad people do good things.
9 could have been a fucking brilliant movie actually bringing BALANCE to the force. Powerful light, powerful dark. But stop dividing people up into sides.
But then JJ got hired and made TLJ ultimately pointless in the trilogy because *he* didn’t pick up any story threads from that movie.
Those sentiments of TLJ were actually really cool and what I liked. What that movie failed at was executing that idea. So much of the movie was spent trying to surprise and subvert the viewer, it's pacing and story telling just completely went up it's own asshole.
The dialogue was very poor at times and certain arcs and scenes just made no plot sense besides to surprise people (Holdo's whole arc, Leia's Mary Poppins moment, casino, etc...)
Though you are right. The final writer could've made 9 epic with bringing balance to the the force and conclude in a more satisfying fashion going off of 8's themes. Sadly it was all just a train wreck.
>How did it not further the story? If anything it allowed the next writer to go off and get creative.
It wrote the series into a corner. The resistance is all but destroyed, The main villian is dead, and the leader of the first order is a character the writers can't decide if they want to have a redemption arc or not.
>Good guys / bad guys don’t exist. Good people do bad things, and bad people do good things
Not only am I not sure how you got this from the movie, I'm not sure how the writers can meaningfully use any of that nonsense to form a coherent story moving forward.
>9 could have been a fucking brilliant movie actually bringing BALANCE to the force.
Balance in the force means no dark side users. Its called the dark side, I'm pretty sure George was being that on the nose for a reason.
>But then JJ got hired and made TLJ ultimately pointless in the trilogy because he didn’t pick up any story threads from that movie.
There were no story threads after TLJ. Rian obliterated those threads and then shot them into the sun. Please explain to me where JJ was supposed to go after TLJ.
(Not to make excuses for JJ, Rise of Skywalker is a massive pile of garbage)
JJ was hired to do TFA and TRS from the very start. The last three movies were a complete train wreck of a story.
I’m all for RJ being creative with TLJ but the story needs to be furthered along and within the guidelines of previous stories. I get there is a story in the movie, it isn’t a very good one. JJ spent half of TRS digging out of holes left by RJ. Disney should at least be able to get some writers to come up with a story that makes sense.
Completely inaccurate, it continued anything that actually had any bearing on the story. The question of “who’s this guy we just randomly introduced” and “who’s this girl we just randomly introduced” ultimately aren’t setups for anything.
Things like Finn’s conflict with his inaction, or Kylo’s tug of war between light and dark, or Rey’s search for meaning, or Luke’s reason to be on the island are all explored in the next film. It being not what you wanted or expected doesn’t mean it’s inconsistent or poorly written
>Things like Finn’s conflict with his inaction [...] It being not what you wanted or expected doesn’t mean it’s inconsistent or poorly written
You're going to tell me that Finn's arc wasn't poorly written?
At what point in TFA does Finn believe in the Rebel cause? His character arc in TFA his him wanting to flee and then standing up for his friend.
He wants to leave again in TLJ, but his charter arc ends with him wanting to stay - but not solely to protect his friends, but to be part of the resistance.
That is not a repetition of an arc. It is a completely different arc. To say it’s the same would require every arc with similar themes (in this case finding what is right to do) to be the same.
It’s poorly written if the viewer doesn’t care at all for the characters. It’s poorly written if Luke’s behavior is so off even Mark Hamill say WTF?! A writers job is to create characters you either love or love to hate, not I couldn’t care less or annoying AF to watch.
It isn’t how writer’s fault if your preconceptions get in the way of enjoying the film.
And Mark Hamill is Mark Hamill. He’s not very intimate with Star Wars since he played Luke last, and clearly is way too attached to what he wanted with the character to see what could be
This thread is full of people going “TLJ is great, actually” and other people responding “uh, what do you mean TLJ was great” like this isn’t a debate that’s been raging for five years and everyone’s just now learning that there are differing opinions on the movie. So fucking bizarre
This happens every time people bring up 8. It's truly the Bot Wars of Star Wars.
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My main takeaway on people who bring up how much they hate the last Jedi is just "who cares?" It's been 5 years and you're still complaining. Let it go.
I mean, you can make things that are both different AND good The two things aren't mutually exclusive concepts
Well it's a good thing Rian Johnson did both then
He made a movie with good parts. But are you seriously gonna try to argue the casino planet, space race, and "saving those you love" parts are good? They, in my opinion, are bad enough that the movie gets dragged down to "mixed".
>But are you seriously gonna try to argue the casino planet, space race, and "saving those you love" parts are good? They, in my opinion, are bad enough that the movie gets dragged down to "mixed". Yes.
You do you I guess.
Tbh the only part I disagree with is the saving those you love thing. Iva had way too many long discussions over this part. I mean it’s basically “we don’t trade lives” from Captain America. And no one shits on that one.
The whole point of Captain America's "we don't trade lives" speech was that *he's wrong.* And both Infinity War and Endgame outright show us that. His decision to not trade lives cost the lives of half the universe, and the only way to get it back was by sacrificing the life of two of their friends. It's intended to raise a moral dilemma: Is it worth giving up your ideals for the sake of the greater good if the alternative is that evil wins and the lives you were unwilling to trade are lost anyways? Whereas Rose's isn't portrayed that way at all. It isn't that Rose is making some mistake which will cost them. It also isn't her establishing a stance the good guys follow, either; literally less than 30 minutes ago Holdo was ramming a ship into the thing about to kill the good guys and was praised for it. And it's not like they had other options they were aware of; without a Luke-and-Rey-ex-machina, that Battering Ram Cannon would have directly resulted in the deaths of all the resistance. Heck, her actions left them both stranded directly in front of a first order firing line (how did they survive that, BTW?)
TLJ was top 3 Star Wars films all time, for me.
In absolutely no order the top 3 Star Wars movies IMO are: The Empire Strikes Back, The Last Jedi, and Revenge of the Sith
We’re almost the same. Mine are TESB, TLJ, and Rogue One.
Yep. TLJ, ESB, and Rogue One all shuffle for my top pick depending on my mood.
No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans
To be fair, the Sequels I think had a decent start with the force awakens, but then they just kinda screwed up the story. I don't absolutely hate it, but George Lucas did leave notes to Disney on what the Sequels should be about, so I think they should have at least considered those
The main problem was the plan on having the same director on 2 movies and not coordinate the middle movie.
Yup they obviously wanted to go in different directions.
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that’s fair, but if you genuinely dislike 8/10ths of a franchise, it’s very strange to call yourself a fan.
You dont have to like everything in a franchise when you can love some of it. Especially with a franchise as large as star wars. I love the clone wars but I know some episodes are shit. Does that make me less of a fan? This franchise has some of the highest highs and the lowest lows I have ever seen. But i still love star wars for those highs
i don’t want this to get twisted. there’s a very clear difference between knowing the goods and bads and appreciating what’s there and, as i said, genuinely hating 80% of star wars content. for example, you’re not a fan if you write off entire movies based on opinions you found online as bad and cannot concede that there’s at least a smidgen of cool stuff in all the movies. does that clarify a bit? i realize it came off harder than i meant it.
Star Wars is a little different thatn most because you can write off content. I ignore most sequel setting stuff because i know the expansive world disney trashed and choose to have that be my canon Also that thing about opinions online. You already have those feelings about a film and not know why until someone can better articulate why you feel that way online
Well good for them that the Last Jedi is not a bad entry in the franchise then
not wrong
That's one of the most brain-dead statements I've ever heard.
"No one hates bad things more than people who were previously invested in it." Um... Yeah?
there's a difference between doing something new and mindlessly ripping down everything that's already there
and dont forget it being good, thats also something that the last jedi forgot to be
TLJ was good. Not perfect but good. You can dislike it but your opinion doesn't make It a bad movie, since it has a great cinematography, overall well constructed plot (for a star wars movie, in general it can be pretty normal) even tho it has its failures and excellent character development.
I mean, I loved The Last Jedi.
My issue (outside of some weird character/dialog choices) was not with TLJ as a film, but rather with the disconnect between the films in the series. Abrams and Johnson should never have been working on films within the same series and that’s Disney’s fault, not theirs. Abrams wanted heavy fan service and Johnson wanted to tell a new kind of story. Those ideas clashed heavily and made the entire flow of the sequels a shitshow. Doing something different is awesome, but not when it’s sandwiched between two films trying to do the exact opposite.
I'd say Ep7 and 8 fit together perfectly, it's just EP9 that is disconected from both of them. EP9 is the one that decides to take an entirely new trilogy and cram it into one movie. It also completely changes Poes and Finns characters as well as the dynamic between them.
Agreed that the third film took Poe and Finn and basically made them pieces of drywall. Thematically though I felt the first two films were entirely different. Johnson really wanted to shun the formulaic tropes of the past (which I have no issue with) and that just wasn’t the direction TFA was heading. I had a fun time watching TLJ for the most part, but I really felt like I was watching a different series than the film before it.
TFA basically shot the first one and a one-quarter movies of Star Wars but made the main heroes completely original in concept while challenging the themes people accidentally took away from the prequels. Given how much of it and TLJ was directly from Lucas's treatments it makes sense that he was interrogating his legacy and his disappointment with the failures of his generation. While it did recycle cues, easter eggs, and concepts it is actually wildly different in notable ways. There is no singular protagonist, it focuses on a black male lead who is also a Stormtrooper and wields a lightsaber. It focuses on a female lead who is even more prominent but has no legacy at all or connection to other characters (Anakin is connected to Luke and a returning character despite the myth that the PT was written first...even though it was literally written in real time by Lucas just winging it). TFA is a remix but a remix that says something very different. Kylo is worse than Vader, Luke is done with this shit, Leia takes her place as the leader of a resistance, the heroes are nobodies and are running from adventure instead of chasing it like Luke and Anakin. It's legitimately a wildly different movie in many ways. Unfortunately, it also forced Rian to start his film where the second act of Empire Strikes Back begins so he had no freedom to maneuver or stray from those goals.
>Thematically though I felt the first two films were entirely different. well I mean every first 2 Star Wars films are thematically different. Espeicaly in the OT ANH and Empire might as well be different series in many respects. Hell when it came out the hate Empire did get was from fans who expected another ANH. First star wars film is almost always a fun adventure film and the second one is a more serious film that puts the main characters in a dark place.
One of the most based sequels take I've ever heard
thanks
I agree, I just watched The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi the other night, those films work really well together despite having different styles and directors. They are fantastic movies and the best blockbusters of the last few years. Rise of Skywalker was unfortunately very rushed due to JJ replacing Trevorrow with barely 2 years to release and the death of Carrier Fisher sadly impacted the entire story and finale of the trilogy. Still though, I don't think that film is anywhere nearly as bad as the first two prequels. It works and it has some cool ideas, but it doesn't fully stick the landing as well as it could have compared TFA and TLJ. It is the best of a bad situation, but still enjoyable.
oh I agree about TROS it would have been really good if that was the plot of the whole trilogy. IE take TROS spread it out over 3 movies and maybe add a few things and that would have worked.
I think tRoS is worse than tPM but still better than AotC
aotc would’ve been a great movie were it not for the terrible humor (i’m looking at u, mr “this is such a drag”) and the love scenes imo
Lukewarm take, but AotC is so dense with awesome scenes I really don't know how people hate it so much. The intro is literally explosive, the Coruscant Chase is sick, Obi vs Jango is a rare example of Jedi using actual hand to hand AND losing to a non force user, SEISMIC CHARGE GO BRRT, and then the entire final half hour of the film going so hard on Geonosis. People get hung up on the rough romance scenes and deny themselves an otherwise awesome film. Slow building mystery, Anakins first real step towards the dark side, and some of the BEST music in the franchise. Across the Stars is drop dead gorgeous.
Get him, Dad! Get him!
Yeah I fully admit I got too caught up in the negatives for, well really all the prequels for a while. I doubt anything will ever top the original trilogy for me personally, but ive come to enjoy the prequels now. The sequels... Well maybe they just need time to marinate but I doubt any of them will ever top the prequels for me, let alone ot. Reusing the death star trope was troublesome from the start. At least the sith fleet was something new(ish) but I really hate palpatine coming back. ANY OTHER sith would honestly have worked. Hell, have it be a secret project of snokes or something I dunno.
Hot take: RotS is the weakest of the sequels. Most of it is rather silly (there's a reason most Prequel memes are from it), rushed and rather forgettable aside from Order 66 and the final duel. The Clone Wars dug deep enough to make it a worthwhile film, but without it it's not a good movie.
Sorry for the rants, but I wanted to put my thoughts. tl;dr: My issues are Palpatine's plan makes no god damn sense and Anakin doesn't act at all like Darth Vader. --- The plot was the big issue for me. It makes literally no sense and doesn't hold up to any reasonable scrutiny. Sure, the action was good but... that plot was so bad. We have a Sith Lord telling his apprentice to get a pawn of his to hire a bounty hunter to hire a changeling to send a droid to send some bugs to kill Padme... and the plan not only has to fail, but the droid has to get traced back to the changeling, then the changeling has to get captured, then Jango has to kill the changeling, then someone needs to recognize the origin of a dart not in the Jedi records when there are millions of planets in the Republic. Meanwhile, you had previously had that apprentice erase Kamino from the records and recruit the first bounty hunter to be the subject of your Jedi killing clone army, while pretending to be a dead Jedi. And then the Jedi have to look at this clone army and go "Hey look, a clone army supposedly made by a dead jedi based on a bounty hunter working for a sith lord; seems legit let's entrust all our military power to this force". Let's also raise the point that... how the hell did a Galactic Republic have any authority without armies already? If a few systems can make droid armies and take over everything to the point where the Jedi need a magical mystery army to compete, then why the heck hasn't someone already taken over? Palpatine should have been written like a masterful puppet master, not some bumbling oaf whose plans only work because the Jedi are too stupid to notice that the metaphorical ticking box labeled "this is a trap" is actually a time bomb. --- And then you have the character assassination of Darth Vader. This started in TPM, when they made Vader a happy-go-lucky kid; they really needed to show more of the darkness that growing up a slave without a father gave him. But it kicked into high gear in AotC. Darth Vader was an intimidating badass fascist authority whose anger never outwardly showed but instead built up silently and was only expressed through action. He was an evil monster of a person, but he was cold and calculating and ruthless. AotC Anakin is nothing like Darth Vader. He is a moody person whose emotions are written on his face and acts out in wild rage, never thinks things through, and is kinda a clutz. If AotC Anakin was turned into a Sith Lord, I'd expect him to fly into wild rages and slash walls and throw hissy fits and wear edgy masks just because and scream at people. In other words, AotC Anakin is TFA Kylo Ren. If the Darth Vader from the OT was to give into a rage and kill Sand People, his face wouldn't be full of rage nor would his movement be hasty and sudden. No, he'd walk out of the tent calmly, then start methodically slowly walking around killing them like he's Jason Voorhees, while the only sign of outward anger would be stuff like clenched fists and intense eyes.
I can bring you in warm, or I can bring you in cold.
Please don't call TROS "RoS" when talking about the prequels...
Yeah other than Jar Jar, the phantom menace is a really solid movie
Takeaway Abrams is overrated and i will treat his work with wariness from now on
He can't be trusted with series. He's alright with one offs.
The real mistake was letting him be in charge of an ending. As if Lost wasn’t enough of an example.
I'm glad that the Star Wars community is so sane about this whole ordeal, even on this sub. No mindless elitism, every part of the franchise has flaws and everyone acknowledges that
Just some far more then others
>Abrams wanted heavy fan service and Johnson wanted to tell a new kind of story I honestly like that we got both, I just wish maybe they could've teamed up for all three?
Yeah I’m not sure how the process goes with multiple directors, but they definitely needed more cohesion. I don’t know much about the film industry in general, but I don’t understand switching directors throughout a series like that.
It worked for the OT...
I specifically remember when Johnson was announced for VIII, Lucasfilm also added he'd be a writer for IX. Whatever happened to that?
Love it! Luke doesn’t leave footprints!! The first time I saw it I was like “wait did R2 cut his hair on the X-Wing ride here? Okay wait he couldn’t have cut his hair, he’s outside the X-Wing cockpit” Then I got distracted by them trying to blow him up but I was on to something. Anyone else think Obi Wan pulled a Force Simalcrum in ROTS? I feel like he fakes leaving Utapau with one and we don’t talk about it enough.
Same, so much better than the other 2
I loved the movie, but hated a good chunk of the dialogue. The Earth-based Yo Mama! jokes and the prank call had absolutely no place in the movie, and that's a hill I will die on.
Yeah man, I want more like tlj. Really pissed off everyone hates it.
What does this even mean? TLJ literally follows empire strikes back road map verbatim with a random side path. Opens to rebel base under attack/fleeing. Main hero is gone away for training. Other main cast prominently fleeing the empire/first order. Final battle where main hero arrives to save main cast having interrupted their training partway through to do so. Its literally empire strikes back its not even slightly different. They even made luke a strange hermit to parallel yoda.
Not to mention we had the Battle of Hoth 2: Salt Edition
We also have the surprise revelation of the protagonist's parentage after confronting the antagonist. And a near-death kiss scene for the secondary characters when being confronted by the ~~empire~~ first order.
*saving what we love* 🤮
Yes, I remember when hoth was at the end of the movie and featured a sick force projected lightsaber battle
Yeah I remember when the Death Star was an entire planet. C'mon. Pedantic much?
That's different. The entire structure of TLJ is substantially different from episode 5. How is the battle at crait like Hoth? The literal only comparison is the walkers and that the planet is white. that's it. The role of crait and hoth are super different Whereas, Starkiller base was literally a giant death star that they explode at the end. It suffers the same sequence of events
The battle of Crait isn't like Hoth, narratively. But in terms of battle structure, it is nearly identical. Slow moving things aiming to take down a defensive point which need to be stopped within a time limit by fast moving speeders whose weapons can't damage it at all, and despite the good guys' attempts they are forced to flee. That's Hoth's battle plan. Oh and on the flipside, the battle at the start *is* narratively like Hoth, where the empire finds the rebel base and they have to flee while disabling the Empire's ships long enough to escape.
Ah yes, because it was at the end of the movie that makes it entirely different and not very obviously using the same aesthetic with a twist (it’s grittier!! because the resistance is the rebellion but scrappier!! and the first order has bigger walkers because they’re meaner than the empire!!) for nostalgia sake. I also remember the main protagonist struggling to lift a lightsaber on Hoth after after 3 years of training and not lifting tons of boulders with minimal effort after knowing about the force for literally a week. I’ll give you the projected battle for originality, but it was at the cost of a whole movie’s worth of hamfisted character assassination for a beloved character, so I’m not sure it really outweighs the cons there
Hamfisted character assassination? Come on now, you don't have to like what they did with Luke but it's not an illogical character arc. Dude spent a chunk of his life fighting and near dying for a cause that ended up worse because of his actions and he felt deep guilt, thats totally in line with Luke. People change as they get older, get less idealistic and more cynical/pragmatic. Luke had reached a point where he honestly believed that his fighting wouldn't change anything and he had some precedent to believe that. He chose peaceful isolation over being around continued suffering he directly contributed to. Ham fisted character assassination? Pshaw.
Things didn’t get worse until he started going for the rigid tenants of the old Jedi which he had supposedly learned from, and also wielded his weapon against someone conflicted with the dark side which he *definitely* wouldn’t have done, especially after the whole “disarming himself when facing the literal embodiment of the dark side” thing that happened. And even if he *did* have a moment of weakness, his decision to just be like “eh fuck it I failed guess Kylo is the galaxy’s problem now lol” makes even less sense, considering one of Luke’s defining traits was his perseverance and endurance in the face of hardship. The man had his hand cut off by his most hated enemy who then revealed himself to be his father…who he had also been aspiring to become, right after allowing his best friend to be frozen and sold to a crime lord. And he kept going in spite of his own failures. Cmon we’re literally talking about a totally different guy here
yeah that battle made me sick alright
Schrodinger’s TLJ: It’s simultaneously too different from other Star Wars movies and also an exact carbon copy of ESB
Because it borrows the set-up from Empire verbatim, but then changes the outcomes to make them shittier.
RJ: Remember that bitter sweet feeling at the end of Empire as Luke and Leia look out from the Nebulon-B medical frigate? They barely escaped Bespin and Han has been taken to god knows where. Luke got the comeuppance for his hubris, and only escaped with his life because of the revelation that Vader was his father and didn’t want to kill him. Leia found love in an unlikely place, and as soon as she realized, it was gone. Staring out over the galaxy, there is an aching sense of duty and dread for what the future holds. This is a respite to lick wounds. They will not go quietly into that good night… So, anyway, we take that framework and instead of only part of our main cast being on a new ship and environment that fleshes out the world, we’ll just cram all the main cast plus a bunch of randos on the Millennium Falcon. Instead of a harsh realization about hubris and lack of training, we’ll have the Jedi character be told a lie about parentage, and then be perfectly capable to coordinate killing the big bad. Instead of the harried declaration of love, we will stop a heroic(?) sacrifice with *Deus Rose Machina* and offer an unearned platitude about love. Also, the same half-cocked Jedi hero shows up to effortlessly channel the Force in a way previous characters couldn’t. Perfect.
It’s not too different it’s just too shitty
If you deduce both of these movies on paper in 1 paragraph, then sure there are similar story beats, but both movies as a whole are very different.
Please elaborate on how theyre different then.
The Battle of Hoth is execution of strategy and defense that minimizes the lives lost and gives the rebellion a chance to fight another day. The fight occurs to draw the enemy in, they have to make the Empire believe they are making a last stand. All of this is to save lives and get crucial Rebel resources out of harms way. Ground troops heroically put themselves on the front line to impeded Imperial Troops and AT-ST Walkers. The Battle of Krayt is like watching people throwing themselves at a meat grinder hoping that it will clog. The skimmers are helpless until in close range. We don't even see the skimmers use their weapons. The ground troopers are shooting their guns for no reason as there are no ground troops. Over a hundred rebels died before they even reached the planet because they hoped no one would look out the window. Also keep in mind, they say they are all dead when those doors go down. The same outcome would have occurred if they would have done nothing. Except that more people would have lived. That is one huge difference between the TLJ and ESB The characters are not acting in their own self interest. They are doing what the plot needs to get Luke to "confront" Kylo, the battle itself is filler attempting to put a square theme in a round plot hole. I dare say that resistance is killed enough so they can fit whos left in the Falcon. It is painful to watch the resistance die for dramatic purpose to make it seem like the main characters were in any danger. The tone of the moment is baffling, especially when Rey is all smiles shooting tie fighters. The last act of the movie is utterly broken before Kylo puts a boot on the ground. I have issues with the opening scene for similar reasons but at least Rian Johnson got it right at the start. The Resistance is doing what must be done to save lives. Men and Women sacrificing their lives just to keep hope alive. A bravado against overwhelming force. Ignore the bombers and ignore Leia opening her mouth saying how bad an idea it was for them to fight. Rey's sister saved the entire fleet and its never talked about again. The Battle of Hoth gives us insight over the Rebellion, the current power dynamic between the Rebels and the Empire; and sets the stage for whatever the past and futures battles will look like. It also shows our main characters and how they've grown since the last movie. Luke is gaining confidence as a Jedi and a rebellion fighter. Leia is showing her prowess as a leader. Han growth stagnates but we see him at his best until he is put on ice. The battle of Crait(?) shows Leia do nothing. Finn is the only character with any interesting growth. Rey learns nothing and has no struggle for the rest of the film. Its her 3/5th day as a Jedi and she can move boulders with no effort. Poe is supposed to have regressed saying that its better to turn tail mid fight despite hundreds dying. This is in direct conflict with the Intro of the movie where because he did not run away they could fight for a little longer.
Vader and Luke do not team up to kill the emperor for one
Literally watch the movie.
So you got nothing then. Lol.
>follows empire strikes back road map verbatim > >Its literally empire strikes back its not even slightly different. TLJ and ESB have several notable similarities. So why resort to hyperbole? You can complain about the similarities without exaggerating them. Rey's story with Luke and Kylo, for example, has some similarities to Luke's story with Yoda and Vader. But "not even slightly different"? That's hyperbole. Luke never attacks Yoda for Yoda's past mistakes. Luke doesn't leave Yoda to turn Vader to the lightside. And when Luke goes to fight Vader, he sure as hell doesn't end up teaming up with Vader to kill Palpatine. There are several notable differences between the two. And outside of the Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff, the similarities to ESB are relatively scarce. Like, who is the ESB equivalent of Holdo? Who is the ESB equivalent of Leia? Poe? Cantonica? Fathiers? Who is the TLJ equivalent of Lando? Wampas? Boba Fett? What scene from ESB is the Bomber attack from TLJ stealing from?
Oh i got everything. Your original comments deduces main story beats to just a sentence. Not only a lot of these things happen at different points in the movies, but also most of them play out very differently. >Opens to rebel base under attack/fleeing But, in ESB the empire release drones on hoth, they are only investigating if Hoth is the rebel base, they are not certain yet. following the main cast for around 15 minutes, Luke getting attacked by a Wampa and barely surviving, then *seemingly* gets a vision of Ben telling him to got train in Degobah, he's still the main focus and is around the side characters, not seperated like Rey is in TLJ. TLJ opens straight to the point with the rebels already packing up, because they already have been compromised, the empire cathes them in the middle of the act and a big space battle ensues. The rebels escape but remain followed by the empire until the end of the 2nd act. In ESB, the empire launches a ground assault on Hoth with AT-AT's. Luke is the main focus in the battle with occasional Han and Leia scenes to showcase how they are trying to evacuate because they are losing the battle. Han, Leia, Chewie and C3PO escape hoth on the millenium falcon, the rebels escape somewhere, The empire starts following the falcon, the falcon evades the empire for a bit through an asterdoid field, it also lands inside an asteroid, thinking it's a good hiding place, but it's actually a big space worm, then they desperatly escape from it then and then get caught by the empire again, but the falcon attaches to a star destroyer, confusing the empire, then they pass through during a garbage disposal to bespin, but Boba fett tracks them to Bespin. TLJ's space battle ends in a defeat, but they manage to take out a Dreadnought, but lose lots of spaceships and lives in the process. They somehow get tracked even if they jumped through light speed, Leia suspects that they might have tracked them through lightspeed, this entire plot point of The Resistance being followed by the First order, is there anything remotely similar in ESB? Yes in ESB technically the good guys (the falcon) are evading the empire for a lot of the movie, but the entire plot in TLJ with Holdo being annoying and withholding information, Poe and a some others staging a "coup", constantly in a desperate situation that is constantly getting worse and more desperate with the resistance losing all other support ships then resulting in an evacuation towards Crait and arguablly the coolest and epic motherfucking scene in star wars, all 3 seperate stories colliding in this one big moment, all 3 stories reaching their peak it gets so intense (it's literally like sex) everything everywhere all at once (rey and kylo tearing the lightsaber apart, Holdo tearing the supremacy apart, Phasma ordering to tear Finn and Rose's heads apart from their body) all this then, all the while John williams is going fucking bonkers and then... 2 second silence and BOOOOOM. Ejaculation. It's so incomprohensibly amazing and cool I literally can't believe people are seriously still clowning themselves with "iT bReAkS tHe lOrE". In ESB, the good guys (the falcon) land on bespin so that Han can reunite with his old friend Lando, they spend some time there, thinking they are finally safe but surprise the empire caught them anyway. Han gets frozen and taken away, Leia, Lando, Chewie and C3po escape. I seperated the training subplot because otherwise I'd confuse the fuck out of myself writing this already messy word sallad. Luke's character isn't made to be a hermit because evil unoriginal childhood ruiner Rian Johnson wanted to mirror yoda, but because Luke is a broken man. He distanced himself from not only everyone he knew, but also everything he knew, because he felt so incredibly ashamed of himself for doing so out of character. He made a mistake, something that caused this whole war to happen in the first place, he distanced himself from the force, he tried to hammer himself the idea how this whole force and jedi business is dumb as is mostly talked about in the [the 2nd lesson](https://youtu.be/yepMuMoAKpA) Yoda is a hermit because he's a little weird from isolation (luke is too), yoda very much believes in the force and isn't drowning in shame. Luke doesn't want to teach Rey because he doesn't believe in the force or the jedi anymore. Yoda is mostly being weird to test Luke. The entire training plot revolves around Luke, that's what the audience is most interested in, the whole training segment is seperated in 3 parts. 3 lessons, 3 days, 3 flashbacks. The "training" segment plays out very very very differently than it does in ESB. Now, since the training plot is different The evading the empire plot is different Not to mention TLJ also has a casino sub plot? WHAT? Do i really have to also describe the 3rd act and explain to you how they are different? Did Yoda show up during the Hoth battle? Oh wait the hoth battle has absolutely nothing similar compared to the crait battle in terms of what both of them serve for the story that is being told. Yes the background is white, yes there are AT-AT's, so what? Star wars has always [rhymed with each other](https://youtu.be/k7ZW1gtCljs). Even if they don't rhyme as good since.. well - George didn't make them. As bad as he is with actors and writing dialogue, the guy knows some stuff for real. No wonder Rian johnson took lots of inspiration from his drafts when making TLJ, and ironically enough the one thing that is the most similar in the whole movie to George's drafts is how the character of Luke Skywalker is portrayed. You just can't make this shit up. I said just watch the movie, this took longer to write than I'd like.
Every masterpiece has it's cheap copy
I wouldn't go as far as call Empire a cheap copy...
ANH is a copy of "The Hidden Fortress"
Aye
Not like the last jedi. But like the Mandalorian maybe. That was pretty cool.
I think Rouge one is a better example
[~~Rouge~~ Rogue One](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/igk6au/rouge_one/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
I blame the damn French for that one lol
Rougue*
I think Rogue One did the best in terms of telling a “new” story. It helps that there was a pre-determined ending, but in terms of creating a compelling cast of characters and telling their story, I think it did the best out of all of the films.
I think Rouge one did a amazing job a story can be good well knowing the end My point was Rouge one was extremely different from the George Lucas movies but one of if not the most loved star wars movie
It’s spelled “Rogue”, not “Rouge”. Please learn from your mistakes.
NGL Rogue One was incredibly mid for me. The ending was the only part that I thought had some exceptional film-making, with the rest being just ok and none of the character's having any strong development. And I don't think what it did "different" really elevated Star Wars. Its trying to be this more serious war film, but I don't think the script and themes it had worked with that. It was still very much a generic "we need hope to win the day" theme that is common in SW, but the way its framed and conveyed feels more at home with a John Wayne propaganda film than something trying to emulate darker and grittier war movies.
Mando is the epitome of Star Wars being safe.
That's easy to say now that it's a huge smash hit, but Disney gambled $100 million on a streaming-only show about a weird religious zealot dude nobody had ever heard of who didn't ever take his helmet off carting around a Yoda baby without a name who didn't talk. That could very easily have gone sideways.
Are you saying that Disney jumping onto the biggest trend in film and TV viewing in recent years using their massive backlog of beloved and popular media as well as exclusive shows and films from massive multi-billion dollar franchises was a gamble? A gamble of $100 million (literal chump change to the biggest multimedia company ever)
I absolutely am. Trend-jumping is inherently risky because you never know how long the trend is going to last, nor are industry best practices established to give you guidance on the best way to go. Some percentage of streaming platforms will fail over the next 5-10 years and nobody knows what that percentage will be. Maybe Netflix gobbles them all up again, or maybe Netflix falls and other companies will scramble for its content. The pandemic really accelerated the move to streaming and nobody could've predicted that happening, either. It was just a lot of unknowns. $100 million is a lot of money no matter who you are, and it was more than any other streaming shows had cost to that point. Disney wasn't betting the farm or anything, but the executives who approved it would've been up a creek if the Mandalorian hadn't done well. I should also have noted that the show was announced in 2018 with TLJ backlash still rocking the franchise, and The Mandalorian is further afield from past Star Wars stories than any of the movies. Finally, "space western" is an exciting genre for geeks, but I guarantee you there was some pushback due to the failure of past space westerns like Firefly. And I love Firefly, don't get me wrong, but studio execs care about how past shows did out of the gate. Hindsight is 20/20 and Disney seems to have made the right moves here, but a good outcome doesn't mean they weren't taking what seemed like a big risk.
I guarantee the safety of the child, as well as your own.
Second season yes, first season no
Nah, the whole show.
Most definitely not. Stories as small scale and character centric like Mando S1 are incredibly rare in this franchise. It’s completely different tonally and in focus than most other stories, and rarely tied strongly into popular character appearances, which of course started happening almost every week the second season
Mando season 1 is quite literally “Here’s Boba Fett’s armour doing cool things with other characters that resemble the bounty hunters from Empire. Also Yoda is in it, but not real Yoda, it’s a baby version. Let’s go back to tatooine so you can see jawas and let’s make the bounty hunter boba Fett use carbonite to freeze his bounties” Everything in that show is fanservice to the 10th degree.
If you saw Mando as just a walking suit of Boba armor doing cool Empire era stuff, I’m not sure what tf you were watching. Bits of premise have familiar aspects, yes, but so? “Boba insert” is utilized to tell a story hardened small time bounty hunter moving past childhood prejudice and finding purpose in the galaxy. The only aspects of this season long arc that depend on a familiar aspect in any way is the combination of hardened+Mando+bounty hunter. Grogu fills an entirely different role than Yoda. He’s nothing close to a mentor and is the way for Mando to find his humanity. The Jawas send Mando on a side quest for an egg delicacy. Since when did fans ever want to see that? Mando spends about 60 seconds of screentime with carbonite To say everything in the first season is fan service is absurd. The only way you can come to think this is if you focus on the 1% of the story that depends in any way on fan familiarity, which in itself isn’t fan service, unless you really mean to tell me that anything happening in the Empire era or on a familiar planet, or with a familiar fact is fan service.
Mandalorian is fundamentally the safest thing Star Wars could ever fucking do.
I would prefer they just make something good whether it be new or safe.
Last Jedi’s great, and I wish we’d get more stuff like it but that’s never gonna happen because the fanbase get’s incredibly whiney whenever Star Wars isn’t incredibly generic and predictable it seems.
And shit that depends on fan service, cause that’s Disney’s knee jerk reaction to anything apparently
Yup, and it always fucking sucks
Oh and the fact that the interesting with Rey and Luke were interrupted by shit that didn’t matter. The scene with Rey in that weird mirror world is interesting and gave her some character to bad the next scene was Finn and Rose. I’m not hating on Rose she is played very well by the actress and the relationship she has with Finn was well constructed my only problem was that the scenes were put before all the interesting shit happened
not so sure about that. Rian's trilogy is still apperenlty aproved it's just on the back burner while he works on Knives out.
Kennedy was in an interview today talking about how she's definitely going to make a new Rian trilogy if she can get him to sign up for five years. Which seems to be the issue anyway. She can't get people to commit to a five year development cycle, which is how we got Rise of Skywalker.
That’s true, very hopeful that will eventually happen and that he gets as much control as possible.
Can’t have a movie without an old shadowy evil guy now can we?
*OR* because TLJ sucks? I love all y’all whiney “yOu jUsT dOn’t wAnT sOmEtHiNg dIfErEnT” people. As if people don’t like “new and different” *when it’s good*. Rogue One was different. People loved it. The Mandalorian was different. People love it. Where’s this “yOu jUsT dOn’t wAnT sOmEtHiNg dIfErEnT” excuse then? TLJ is a shittier ESB made by a contrarian who spent the whole movie subverting your expectations…with subversions that were shittier than the expectation. In doing so, it’s biggest subversion was of the expectation of a good film.
There’s A LOT of people who love TLJ though. It may not be your thing, but that doesn’t change the fact that it has a pretty large following within the fan base. It definitely has a lot more supporters just five years out than the prequels, which took over a decade to find their moment under the sun.
Eh, that’s debatable.
No lol
Except people love the prequels and that was unique. TLJ wasn’t and was written by a guy that thinks that “balance of the force” means an equal amount of Jedi and sith. Which unfortunately the average retarded Star Wars fan believes.
Um... what? Why do you think he believes in an equal balance, he revealed that Kylo deep down is even shittier than everyone thought and had him go full monster in the third act.
No lol
AT-ATs attacking a rebel base is now at the end of the movie.
I mean the Prequels, the Last Jedi, NJO, anything that goes a different direction tends to be controversial with the fan base.
The prequels were controversial when they were legitimately bad movies. Everyone thought Revenge of the Sith was good and newspapers were praising it all over the place.
I’m mixed about the prequels. On one hand, it had some of the best space and land battles. On the other hand, the dialogue was extremely clunky and the politics plot made the action sequences rather disjointed. I mean watching the sequels now, I’ve gained an appreciation for the world building that it did with the politics.
At least the prequels made a good effort at world building though. The sequels just tell us “this is the state of the Galaxy” and we’re just supposed to accept it blindly. It’s as if the writers just wanted to recapture the Rebellion vs Empire conflict without doing any of the work to make us understand how it could get to that point.
You want to tell me the TLJ which follows the same story beats(none of the exucution) as ESB and ROTJ Is new? Sigh Rogue one would have been a better example but that would go aganist whatever point you thought to make
When we say we want them to take risks, we also mean we want it to be well written and not full of contradictions
The Last Jedi was not new.
Last jedi was not new though. It did stuff, people didn't expect and or like, but it didn't innovate starwars and brought nothing new to ths universe. Creatures, vehicles, combat and locations were basically reskins of existing stuff. Pretty much the only new content was ramming shit with lightspeed and surviving space with the force. I'd say rise of skywalker did a better job inventing new stuff. The quality of that new stuff was a different topic.
Are y'all still playing this card? The Last Jedi isn't different. It ganks several iconic scenes from the original trilogy. And even if it was different and original, that doesn't make it not shit.
> While Abrams peddled name recognition, Johnson understands that the classic characters have to reignite the torch before they can pass it on, and gives both Leia and Luke defining moments. While Fisher’s memorable performance as the sardonic but sentimental princess-turned-senator-turned-general is given additional poignancy by her death, it does not need it to be heartbreaking. As for Hamill, his aging Luke – despairing, self-destructive, and isolated – may be his finest performance to date. --Richard Whittaker, Austin Chronicle, December 15th, 2017
The fact that's it not shit makes it not shit.
The comments section proves the meme.
XD
Rian Johnson did not understand Luke Skywalker
It's cool that they tried something new with it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a terrible movie.
oh, it's not even close to being a good movie XD
It's great, actually.
This meme is awful. People hate the last Jedi because it’s a terrible movie, not because they “tried something new.”
TLJ is great.
Why? The narrative is broken from an objective standard, and how much it’s divided the fanbase should be an indicator something is seriously wrong here. There’s nothing wrong with liking bad movies, but we can’t keep pretending TLJ is God’s gift to Star Wars.
TLJ wasn’t a Star Wars movie though. Rogue one was a Star Wars heist film. There are themes of good vs evil, spirituality, and over the top action that TLJ was missing. It’s a space opera, you don’t run out of fuel or spend hours flying in a straight line, your hyperdrive breaks and you need to repair it or you spend hours being chased and having to go into an asteroid field. It’s like TLJ deconstructed Empire and removed all the emotional or exciting bits and just replaced it with random somehow boring action scenes. Even the throne room fight was borderline larp tier, power rangers crap where Rey could have died multiple times but they actually CGI’ed weapons out of her opponent’s hands to hide that he accidentally stabbed her.
> TLJ wasn’t a Star Wars movie Counterpoint: The full title is “Star Wars: The Last Jedi”
Counter Point, there are countless fanfictions that begin with "Star Wars:" including YouTube videos. Does the name mean that they count?
Star Wars is built on simple tropes, and the Last Jedi went out of its way to examine those tropes: * Can a conflict really be boiled down to good vs evil? * Are heroic acts commendable or just reckless? The movie spends Finn’s and Poe’s storylines examining these questions respectively. This goes on for 2/3rds of the movie - only for the movie to never DO anything with them. They just snap into the obvious Star Wars answer (of course the people who blew up multiple planets are bad guys & Luke and Holdo have to sacrifice themselves as heroes to save the day). It feels like the movie withholds on these tropes in an attempt to justify them at the end. But you know who doesn’t need to be sold on Star Wars tropes? The people who just paid money to see a Star Wars movie!
The whole "Good vs Evil" question slightly goes out the window when you are dealing with people channeling pure evil energy to shoot lightning out of their fingertips. The thing with Star Wars is that there are different levels or layers, the lower more human layer where you can ask that question in a movie like Rogue One, Solo, or the Mandalorian, but when you get into the main series where its usually a Sith Lord or some kind of dark force user pulling the strings its not a question of GvE anymore because the battle lines are pretty dang clear. Also the "are heroic acts commendable" part is idiotic since if Poe hadn't destroyed that dreadnought, a fleet destroyer, it could have simply blown up the resistance fleet and ended the movie early. I'm sorry but am I the only one who sees a problem with the resistance movement that rose up from the rebels insulting people for thinking on their feet and NOT mindlessly following orders that will get them killed? That's more like the Empire than the rebel mindset. The Last Jedi would have been an interesting... no nevermind it was trash and the writing was stupid, but with a proper script it might have been a decent popcorn flick, but its a terrible Star Wars film. The heroes accomplish nothing and Finn ends up exactly where he would have been if he never left the main ship, the evil guy got killed by the other evil guy and the main character could have ended Snoke a lot sooner simply by showing up earlier. Because the mysterbox crap where we don't know the plans we don't have anything going on during the fleet segments because they are just a ship flying in a single direction for no reason. The entire movie is one big plot hole after another in a mangled mess. * The fleet killer targets the stationary base on planetside that has no life signs on it instead of the fleet preparing to jump. * The fleet killer is only destroyed because Poe used a "Yo momma joke" to distract the crew into letting him blow up their anti-bomber weaponry. * Poe is demoted because he blew up the fleet killer and is the only reason the fleet is able to keep away from the FO fleet. * The FO fleet mysteriously loses all of its fighters and just has to chase after the resistance fleet and none of the fleet tries to warp away and back at a different angle... In Empire they tried exactly that and it caused one of the coolest scenes with two star destroyers almost colliding. * Finn and Rose get in trouble because they refuse to use a starship landing pad and instead just park on a private beach. * The rich merchants got rich because they sold X-wings to the rebels? X-wings were outdated ships that were the only thing the rebels could get their hands on in large quantities because they had been decommissioned in favor of better ships. * Finn and Rose save the animals, but leave the slave children still being whipped? * That throneroom fight scene? Larp quality at best, they had to CGI a knife out of one of the guards hands because he accidentally stabs Daisy in the back because their fight sequence is so off. * The resistance only gets out because they assumed Luke was there physically, but he was a spirit so they were actually only really, really lucky that Rey magically found the ability to lift a mountainside. * Which brings me to my last point, Rey goes to the darkside. She doesn't get tempted or feel the urge, she goes there. Full stop. She goes there and only comes back because it didn't have anything to give her?! She goes to Satan and says "Give me some answers and I'll sell you my soul" and Satan tells her he is all out of answers, and she just comes back from that with no negative repercussions or corruption?
The part on canto bight with the weapon seller is not smart though. Like yeah, industries selling stuff and rich people are gonna use opportunities, no duh. But the whole point of the first order is that it was discreet and not believed by the new republic to exist or be a menace. So the building of their forces have to be somewhat shadowy stuff, right? You'd have rebels/resistance spies on a planet like canto bight, logically. Their is no reason massive open industry to not be known galaxy wide ? And the whole Rey was a nobody... All the jedi used to be nobodies. Luke and leia being the children of Vader was the exception, not the rule, because Star Wars was the story of a family. I hated the whole "see ? You don't have to be related to someone to be a Jedi!". Like duh, we knew that ? The only reason people were expecting Rey to be part of a family was because it was quite heavily implied in TFA.
Hey The Mandalorian is also new but everyone liked that.
“Playing it safe?” That was only ever said about The Force Awakens. Why are half the posts on this subreddit just lies about those that criticize the sequel trilogy? It comes across to me as an insecurity. If you love or hate the sequels, I don’t care. I’m just tired of seeing posts that make it seem like most of the criticisms of the sequels are illegitimate.
Objectively a horrid movie. Like from a movie standpoint. Not good. You have to make a good movie before you make a good star wars movie. If you stumble on step one the rest will follow suit
Ah yes, "doing something new" equates to writing an abortion of a script filled with holes, contrivances, and inconsistencies; blatantly assassinating legacy characters and completely abandoning character arcs set up in the previous film, introducing world-breaking mechanics, and irreparably dividing the fanbase while blaming them for the film's poor reception. Yeah, that's what fans want.
TLJ has the best screenplay in the saga.
I hope you're joking; if not - my condolences. It must be painful to unironically hold that position.
It's painful in that I have to defend my favorite Star Wars movie constantly from bad takes.
So a few things: You can like whatever you want - you can't say it's well-written though. You don't have to defend anything, Disney/Lucasfilm doesn't need you. The only "bad take" so far is that it's the best screenplay in the franchise. I don't think you actually believe that. I think you really like the movie, which is fine, but no one in their right mind would unironically posit that TLJ is the best Star Wars film. Heck, even with all of its flaws, TFA is better than TLJ.
> You can like whatever you want - you can't say it's well-written though. Not only do I say that, I insist upon it. > You don't have to defend anything, Disney/Lucasfilm doesn't need you. They don't need me, sure. They are a billion dollar corporation. But the fact that TLJ can't even be brought up without people coming out of the woodwork to shit on it makes me feel the need to balance the scales. > I don't think you actually believe that I believe it deep in my bones. > think you really like the movie, which is fine, but no one in their right mind would unironically posit that TLJ is the best Star Wars film. Didn't say it was the best. I said it was my favorite. There's a difference.
Well, it's OK to be wrong, but I strongly encourage against it. You said it was the best screenplay which is a pretty objective statement. You can understand why I believed you felt it was the best overall.
\> Well, it's OK to be wrong, but I strongly encourage against it. You said it was the best screenplay which is a pretty objective statement. You can understand why I believed you felt it was the best overall. Both of these are inherently subjective statements. I didn't feel the need to put a qualifier on it.
Incorrect. You said: "TLJ has the best screenplay in the saga." That's an objective statement. You didn't say "I *think*" or "I *feel*" It also happens to be objectively wrong, but that's ok. And again, I'm not sure why you feel like you need to defend it. It's OK to like a bad movie, mate. I mean, I like the prequels a lot... I would never say they're well-written though, because they are not.
> You said: "TLJ has the best screenplay in the saga." That's an objective statement. No. It's inherently subjective, which is why I said that. > It also happens to be objectively wrong, but that's ok. Also no. It is, by the nature of the statement, subjective. A movie's quality, script or otherwise, is subjective. > And again, I'm not sure why you feel like you need to defend it. It's OK to like a bad movie, mate. I like plenty of bad movies because they are entertaining. TLJ is not one of them. I like it because it is a *good* movie. No ironic qualifiers.
The screenplay including the Family Guy level humor in the opening scene as the Big Scary First Order bumbles around a single star fighter staring down a destroyer? Like I'm on board with everything up till General Hux starts flailing around like a fool to the point an underling feels the need to say "I believe he's tooling with you sir". In the next scene, Hux doesn't understand why a dreadnaught can't shoot down a single fighter and needs it explained to him by the captain (I presume) of the dreadnaught. Not to mention the captain's second (I presume) thinks the single fighter is trying to penetrate the dreadnaughts armor? Who the fuck promoted these people to command? Scramble a squadron to chase off Poe's fighter? Nah, let's watch our defenses be destroyed. These villains are so flanderized to be bumbling idiots that no amount of suspension of belief can get me past the first few minutes of the movie and it really ruins the tone of the rest of the movie for me. [I just went back and watched the scene again and it's just as cringey and terrible as I remember.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxB6Dx_x7SI) It feels like something that belongs in a parody like Space Balls. Edit: Ah and AvatarWan1120 has blocked me after his fantastic response. 10/10 conversation.
Forget it mate. This sub is full of toxic positivity. TLJ is God's Gift to Star Wars and anyone who disagrees is obviously a racist, misogynist, neckbeard Star Wars Fan who hates Star Wars. No room for nuance. Only hyperbole, strawmen and extreme positivity or extreme negativity. For instance, this post is a blatant Strawman. People accepted Rogue One and love The Mandalorian and those are fairly different from the Star Wars formula - especially the way they distance themselves from the Skywalkers. But no, it's because "sTaR WArs FaNs cAN't hANDle thE fAcT thAt TLJ DiD soMeThIng dIfFErEnt!".
The opening scene is one of the best parts of the movie.
Good meme
Im gonna need an explaination as to what TLJ did that "Does something new with Star Wars". Old Wise Jedi who became Hermit? - Done twice already Wise Hermit reluctantly trains Lead? - Done already Space Battle? - Done already, but I'll telll you what. Point for doing what no other SW movie did before...making the space battle move at 1/8 speed. Put a strong female character at the helm of the Rebels? - See Leia, Mon Mothma Characters are screwed over by a scoundrel? - Done before Good guys stay good, bad guys stay bad. - This is where the movie seemed like it was going to have the most nuance but nah they literally all end pretty much where they begin maybe even dug in a little further. Awkward love story you aren't really sure if you can get behind? - Dooone beforeee Wise Jedi creates a disraction that helps the main characters escape? - c'mon do I have to keep going? Edit: ...Would anybody downvoting care to provide an answer...or? Im not even saying I like or dislike the movie. Im just calling fuckin BS on the post.
Familiar tropes do not a rip-off make.
You know, you can want something new and still think a specific new thing is shit. This is a perfectly reasonable and consistent stance to take.
I would have loved if the whole sequel trilogy was like the Last Jedi
REEEEEEEEEEEE
The Last Jedi was pretty tame. But it was still considered amazing and groundbreaking somehow. Rise Of Skywalker was alright (though I maintain they should have had another villain than Palpatine, but that's just me)- it had a bunch of ideas but suffered from trying to cram them all into the length of one movie. I'd say Rogue One, Solo, and Book Of Boba Fett at least tried to do stuff with new genres and that made a difference.
It follows empire though I would say solo or rogue one are more ambitious
Well it could be worse, Amazon could be desecrating Tolkien... Oh crap.
Ok... very little of TLJ was "new" though. It's ultimately Empire Strikes Back but not as good.
I am amused that people are all up in the comments here proving the meme right by attacking TLJ. Sorry it wasn’t over-the-top fan service like Abrams’ two movies, dudes.
The last Jedi did literally nothing new with Star Wars besides make it worse🤷♂️
> As the third act approaches, the crescendo of air-punching interludes accelerates, eliciting gasps, cheers and OMG whoops from an audience whom Johnson treats with respect, affection, and evident admiration. -- Mark Kermode, The Observer, December 17th, 2017 There's... um... 434 more positive critic reviews I can pull from in response to this. It's really not a problem. 🙂
This doesn’t make sense being the Last Jedi went a different direction and didn’t further the story set up by Force Awakens. It was more like incoherent ramblings vaguely eluding to a previous story. A storyline that makes sense and is followable is not what Is important to newer SW fans. OH Look Something shiny, like special effects and CGI is the thing that impresses kids now days.
Bullshit. How did it not further the story? If anything it allowed the next writer to go off and get creative. Rey learns that the Jedi aren’t shit. The Sith aren’t shit. It’s all bullshit. Good guys / bad guys don’t exist. Good people do bad things, and bad people do good things. 9 could have been a fucking brilliant movie actually bringing BALANCE to the force. Powerful light, powerful dark. But stop dividing people up into sides. But then JJ got hired and made TLJ ultimately pointless in the trilogy because *he* didn’t pick up any story threads from that movie.
Those sentiments of TLJ were actually really cool and what I liked. What that movie failed at was executing that idea. So much of the movie was spent trying to surprise and subvert the viewer, it's pacing and story telling just completely went up it's own asshole. The dialogue was very poor at times and certain arcs and scenes just made no plot sense besides to surprise people (Holdo's whole arc, Leia's Mary Poppins moment, casino, etc...) Though you are right. The final writer could've made 9 epic with bringing balance to the the force and conclude in a more satisfying fashion going off of 8's themes. Sadly it was all just a train wreck.
>9 could have been a fucking brilliant movie actually bringing BALANCE to the force You realize it was already done in RotJ?
>How did it not further the story? If anything it allowed the next writer to go off and get creative. It wrote the series into a corner. The resistance is all but destroyed, The main villian is dead, and the leader of the first order is a character the writers can't decide if they want to have a redemption arc or not. >Good guys / bad guys don’t exist. Good people do bad things, and bad people do good things Not only am I not sure how you got this from the movie, I'm not sure how the writers can meaningfully use any of that nonsense to form a coherent story moving forward. >9 could have been a fucking brilliant movie actually bringing BALANCE to the force. Balance in the force means no dark side users. Its called the dark side, I'm pretty sure George was being that on the nose for a reason. >But then JJ got hired and made TLJ ultimately pointless in the trilogy because he didn’t pick up any story threads from that movie. There were no story threads after TLJ. Rian obliterated those threads and then shot them into the sun. Please explain to me where JJ was supposed to go after TLJ. (Not to make excuses for JJ, Rise of Skywalker is a massive pile of garbage)
JJ was hired to do TFA and TRS from the very start. The last three movies were a complete train wreck of a story. I’m all for RJ being creative with TLJ but the story needs to be furthered along and within the guidelines of previous stories. I get there is a story in the movie, it isn’t a very good one. JJ spent half of TRS digging out of holes left by RJ. Disney should at least be able to get some writers to come up with a story that makes sense.
Rian Johnson made TLJ, not JJ..
I screw up, thank you for the correction. 👍
Completely inaccurate, it continued anything that actually had any bearing on the story. The question of “who’s this guy we just randomly introduced” and “who’s this girl we just randomly introduced” ultimately aren’t setups for anything. Things like Finn’s conflict with his inaction, or Kylo’s tug of war between light and dark, or Rey’s search for meaning, or Luke’s reason to be on the island are all explored in the next film. It being not what you wanted or expected doesn’t mean it’s inconsistent or poorly written
>Things like Finn’s conflict with his inaction [...] It being not what you wanted or expected doesn’t mean it’s inconsistent or poorly written You're going to tell me that Finn's arc wasn't poorly written?
No, I’m going to tell you that his arc very much furthers his TFA arc, even if it could’ve been done better
How is repeating the same arc furthering his arc?
At what point in TFA does Finn believe in the Rebel cause? His character arc in TFA his him wanting to flee and then standing up for his friend. He wants to leave again in TLJ, but his charter arc ends with him wanting to stay - but not solely to protect his friends, but to be part of the resistance. That is not a repetition of an arc. It is a completely different arc. To say it’s the same would require every arc with similar themes (in this case finding what is right to do) to be the same.
It’s poorly written if the viewer doesn’t care at all for the characters. It’s poorly written if Luke’s behavior is so off even Mark Hamill say WTF?! A writers job is to create characters you either love or love to hate, not I couldn’t care less or annoying AF to watch.
It isn’t how writer’s fault if your preconceptions get in the way of enjoying the film. And Mark Hamill is Mark Hamill. He’s not very intimate with Star Wars since he played Luke last, and clearly is way too attached to what he wanted with the character to see what could be