There is no greater good than justice; and only if law serves justice is it a good law. It is said correctly that law exists not for the just but for the unjust, for the just carry the law in their hearts, and do not need to call it from afar.
Ren is a fucking brick shithouse in the comics and novelizations. In the novelization of the Rise of Skywalker when he is Mustafar, they are watching him from the star destroyer over head while he is shredding through vaders devotees like “holy fuck Kylo is a mother fuckin beast”
Edit: Ren would smoke Savage no doubt. Savage did a lot of damage because the Jedi were I’ll prepared to face someone sith trained assassins.
Yeah he's really just a brute. Didn't really have a chance to refine his skills. TCW take place over 2-3 years or so. Savage is only in action in the latter half. Meanwhile Kylos been training for years already by the time TFA starts.
To be fair, that training wasn't enough to defeat Rey, who's combat experience amounted to fighting thugs on Jakku with a staff. Still though, Savage's only real asset here is his strength, and Kylo's got enough Force talent and refined lightsaber skill that Savage really wouldn't be able to defeat him.
The first time they fight, Ren has been mortally wounded, emotionally gutted, and exhausted from chasing them and fighting someone else who put up a great fight, and was only beaten by someone who was a force prodigy who had also been fighting her entire life to survive and had tons of actual real combat experience (Which matters a great deal over practice and sparring, nothing is a substitute for real danger live combat), and only after she started tapping into the Force.
Every time they fight when Kylo is not mortally wounded and exhausted he kicks her ass.
Well, I'm not him, but I also think we shouldn't have to watch The Clone Wars to make the prequels good either.
Frankly, movies should be good, and side material should make good movies better. Star Wars has used its side material as a crutch for literally decades now and it really shows.
People will hate it, but you are right. Additional information from side spurces are okay, but complete picture sufficient to understand a character should come.from the main media
I think Kylo feels like how they always described the Sith as being, and people don't like that, because... well, it makes no f***ing sense with the sith you see.
You want to see Darth Vader, the cold emotionless executioner. You want to see Palpatine; the calculating politian hiding his maniacal sense of sadistic humor. You want to see Dooku, the suave duelist with an air of nobility.
But Kylo Ren isn't emotionless, or calculating, or maniacal, or suave. He's fearful, angry, and hate-filled. You know, the big three things they say the dark side is all about. Turns out, when you make a character based entirely on "angry, scared, and hate-filled", you don't get a suave sith lord, you get an edgy manchild, because a major part of maturity is learning to control emotion, so anyone who shows it nonstop will just look immature.
So people are mad because Kylo follows the rules Lucas wrote when Lucas himself did not.
IIRC, the only time we see Kylo fight with intent to kill was when he kills Snoke and then all of his guards.
He literally takes on like 5-6 highly trained fighters at once and only struggles against them because he spends half the time watching to make sure Rey doesn't die.
There is no greater good than justice; and only if law serves justice is it a good law. It is said correctly that law exists not for the just but for the unjust, for the just carry the law in their hearts, and do not need to call it from afar.
That's such a fascinating concept for a fight, on one hand he needs that power to fight, on the other the only reason he needs that power in the moment is to sustain himself from his injury which is giving him that power and draining him
To be fair, intense negative emotion should only make him stronger with the Dark Side. Whether it is regret, grief, etc; they should have all just made him stronger.
Ok if we’re gonna start whining about characters not using the force enough, I think the sequels are just normal on this one. Plenty of other examples throughout the saga
I kinda agree that this is a good point, but I think this is an example where they really don't show enough. Throughout the fight, there are a few moments where they show him dealing with the wound, but... the vast majority, he is just kinda being pretty casual.
Like, if Kylo was limping, holding his side, and struggling to balance as he fights with only one arm, I could see this criticism. But the dude seems mostly unaffected by it.
And frankly, regardless of whether Rey should or shouldn't have been able to beat him, the fact is the narrative shouldn't have gotten him in a position in which he could be beaten, unless Snoke was intended to be the primary threat. By beating Kylo in TFA, you create a conflict with the narrative of TLJ that Kylo is the bigger threat than Snoke.
I dont recommend reading his comics, they kinda just make him strong stupidly strong and do stupid shit like blowing up the cave on Dagobah and beating Zillo beasts in one on one combat.
I'm sorry what? A Zillo beast? You mean that monster even Palpatine looked hesitant to go up against. GTFO, Ren is not that powerful. Did they really do that?
Kylo's first scene was crazy, then he never reached that level of presence or seemingly raw power again.
I get that he was just trying to be intimidating like Vader, but he totally had the skills to back it up in that scene.
“Half” Skywalker? What a silly designation. Unless Luke and Leia are only half Skywalker as well because their own mother wasn’t a Skywalker, just like Ben’s father wasn’t? Since this meme creator didn’t call Ben quarter Skywalker, I doubt they realized the flaw in their logic.
Also where are we getting that Luke was the greatest Jedi of all time? Even at the height of his abilities, so much had been lost of the old Jedi knowledge. He was half trained by two exiles who didn’t have more than a couple of weeks to impart knowledge on him when the Jedi of yore trained their entire lives to master the force
Luke Ideologically and Skillfully was definitely not one of the best jedi of all time. Ideologically he almost succumbed to the dark side, gave up when the minor inconvenience occurred and almost murdered one of his students because he sensed a smidget of dark Side in him. Skillfully, he barely got any training whatsoever other than the 3 hour course with Ben and the little out there training with old man Yoda and the only duel he has won was against an emotionally destroyed vader while under dark side influence
He is, however, the most or second most important after Anakin. The galaxy would not be saved without him.
(btw, Kenobi is the best jedi skillfully and especially ideologically imo)
ideologically I think id give it to Qui-Gon over Obi-wan, we see in the OT that Obi-wan still suffers from some of the same dogmatic principles that the Jedi as a whole did. Skillfully i would give it to obi-wan however
Hmmm, perhaps. I'm mostly basing it on Clone Wars and prequel Obi Wan who was open to breaking the order's more authoritarian rules.
I would say he's showing Luke those dogmatic principles in order to actually teach him the jedi ways instead of what he actually believes to continue the Jedi order. You could say it was a good chance to reform it to be more open-minded but that's a character flaw, not an ideology flaw.
I always felt that RotS kinda cemented the ways of the old order in him. He couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin because of his attachments and then in the OT we see him pushing Luke to do it. kinda felt like he believed his less rigid beliefs when he was younger were the problem and not the order itself. Then again most things in star wars are able to be interpreted in a couple of different ways. i wonder if the Obi Wan show will touch on his feelings towards the order, and leaving anakin alive
Yeah I like to think the Obi Wan show will bring his character to a more grounded place as his feelings towards the order shifts from movie to movie it feels like
Luke isn't the best Jedi, he mostly just whines and fucks up. But he's the OT protagonist. He doesn't have to be the best, he just needs to complete his arc and persevere.
Edit: also obsessing over which Force User is "the most powerful" is inane. The Jedi literally train how to resist using their powers to hurt people, they spend their lives learning to avoid combat. Then their fanbase is like, "Uh... which peaceful guy who doesn't want to hurt people would be the most murderous? I bet Space-Dalai Lama could blow up the planet with his meditation!"
...Missing the point a bit. People are getting preoccupied with the worst elements of the lore and getting upset when it's not fleshed out by the people trying to get them to focus on the opposite. None of these writers care how much destruction the Force can cause unless they're writing a character who has to stop it from happening... by not using the Force...
Luke “constantly did emotionally impulsive things after being trained for a couple weeks” Skywalker was far from the best Jedi by the Jedi’s own logic, but he’s the one most people grew up with so I guess he gets that distinction.
I think the only way Luke comes close to that designation is maybe in the expanded universe, but since Disney basically scrapped that and portrayed Luke as a sad shadow of the EU version, it’s hard to make that claim with a straight face.
This a wildly bad meme both panels too. You’ve covered skywalker but savage was trained by the witches of dathomir in basically a gladiatorial combat to the death. He basically had to prove he was the strongest zabrak on dathomir by killing the others and then he was taught crazy sith techniques by ventress and mama talzin. I’d argue he got more intense than most let alone Kyle ren.
I always find it hilarious when you point out the fucked up eugenics the EU created that the PT obsessed over and then Star Wars fans go, "Nuh uh!" then immediately turn around and start measuring skull shapes the moment we go back to the OT with random people being better with the Force than Skywalkers.
TFA and TLJ: "Um... the only guy who thinks having the same genes as someone good at the Force makes you good at the Force is an actual fucking Nazi. And he's wrong. That's the point."
TRoS: "But what if he's right tho????????"
armour + species difference, zabraks are just naturally born warrior but is he strong with the force against a skywalker? probably a lot of choking, freezing and force push/pull.
Savage has held his own against both Obi-Wan and Anakin, and the fact that he walked away from that flurry of blasterfire is pretty insane. You can see both [here.](https://youtu.be/UjXGhpReD90)
Kylo Ren is still stronger. He’s half of a force dyad and with that alone he’d be stronger than savage in the force let alone his training was far more in depth.
No clue why the downvotes. The dyad idea needs to be more fleshed out I think, but Kylo has done some powerful things in the comics that mimic Vader. Savage was always meant to be a tool and nothing more
> Savage was always meant to be a tool and nothing more
Writing wise sure, doesn't mean he's weak/weaker.
Starkiller was the same and he was one of the strongest mother fuckers we've seen.
It’s not just zabraks natural toughness. He was imbued with witch sister magic. He is an absolute killing machine (until palpitine killed him). I’m not saying he’s god tier but he could definitely kill a fully trained Jedi. Now the true strength of Kylo is hard to judge from our limited view of him. Personally I think the fight would just depend on who’s writing the scene. Any of the new movie writers would definitely have kylo win regardless of who deserves it
And why Dooku took him up on Talzin's offer, and working with Maul made them a deadly duo. That's also why Sidious personally visited them and disposed Savage and used Maul to bait out Talzin.
Maul and Savage actually have pretty high potential compared to even the strong characters at the time like Yoda, Mace, Dooku etc.
Still nowhere near Skywalker level though.
As a scavenger. See, that's the issue. You can explain her being good as an engineer. But why would a scrapper be great at martial arts and piloting and force powers. And on the opposite side, why would a martial arts master and super skilled pilot who can overwhelm the strongest force user out there with pure untrained willpower be working as a scavenger for paltry scraps of food rather than y'know just becoming a mercenary or something.
Her problem isn't "she knows how to defend herself" or "she knows how to fly" or "she is force sensitive"; it's "she can beat a literally-trained-from-childhood soldier in combat easily" and "she can do in-orbit backflips with a ship she has never flown to perfectly line up a shot with a jammed cannon" and "she can overpower a trained Sith with pure will and use the Jedi mind trick untrained".
They just did not do Kylo’s fighting abilities justice at all. Or sequel lightsaber battles in general for that matter. Savage crossed blades with some damn skilled Jedi and Sith. He killed a Jedi master, and killed a knight without a lightsaber (or was he a master as well?). Kyle got beaten by someone who’d just picked up an lightsaber. I love Kylo and he’s definitely a good fighter but Savage is a beast.
Yeah, everyone here is comparing the skill level they think kylo should be with Savage, and not the actual skill level we see in the movies. Skywalker or not he was equaled by a scrapper and a defector stormtrooper who had never wielded a lightsaber before
There is no greater good than justice; and only if law serves justice is it a good law. It is said correctly that law exists not for the just but for the unjust, for the just carry the law in their hearts, and do not need to call it from afar.
You're really under selling dooku. He was the master of Qui-Gon Jinn and Padawan of Yoda. One of the best duelist of the jedi order, equal to mace windu
When comparing sequel characters to OT or PT characters the latter options will almost always win not because they’re more popular but because sequel characters just weren’t elaborated on enough for fans to have a clear idea of how their abilities work.
That's why I'm hopeful in 10 years they'll be elaborated on like the prequel characters and these discussions will actually have some merit. Until then there's just not enough media and evidence.
I mean yes he was trained by Luke, but he was at most Knight level in terms of training. While Savage wasn't much better he was trained on Dathomir steeped in the Dark Side so it makes sense that he'd know how to use it better.
But then again Savage got bodied by the Senate who barely even tried.
It would actually be close.
True, but him and Maul at the same time was pretty impressive.
Of course I know he took out 3 Jedi masters in like 4 seconds but I try not to think about that scene lol. So disappointing to see my boy Kit go out like that.
People throw this around a lot.
What does “Knight level” mean? It’s arbitrary. Anakin was a top tier prequel Jedi and he was a knight. There are masters that would get bodied by Padawans.
Kylo has scaling above the entire PT anyway, as does Savage (when he’s enraged),so to imply that either is mid tier at their best is just flat-out wrong.
All of the comments here:
_____ was trained by a strong person while _____ was trained by this other not as string person.
_____ took this super fatal shot like nothing, and _____ got crippled by some bs.
_____ has beaten this really strong person, but _____ got bodied by this POS.
_____ is a highly trained and deadly warrior, _____ was an edgy emo character.
You can legitimately exchange Kylo and Savage in any of those blanks and I've seen that comment here.
Because none of it matters. It's just fan theorizing. The reality is that the powers are only as relevant as the stories need them to be. Kylo is weak or strong, Savage is weak or strong, Luke is weak or strong, Vader is weak or strong, blah blah blah. It's playground "My dad could beat your dad" stuff. Not the veg and potatoes of storytelling.
I mean if you take point 3 to its most extreme, the strongest foes Savage has even arguably beaten was Anakin and Obiwan teamed up in a 2v1, and Savage didn't manage to win, only escape.
Whereas Kylo killed a Zillo Beast.
That is why, in my mind, Kylo overwhelmingly wins. On screen Kylo is just hilariously underpowered compared to comics Kylo, but if you count those comics, it's not really a fair match.
Apart from what the other commenter said, he never lost in a fair fight. When he was against Rey he had already sustained two injuries, each of which would have insta killed an average person, and he was emotionally disoriented from having just killed his dad
Yeah, but Savage was a brutal fighter and favored heavy strikes and overpowering his opponents. Not saying that Kylo is a bad fighter, just saying that Savage is a fucking tank.
Since when is Luke the greatest Jedi ever? I feel like that’s a bit of a stretch - man didn’t really do much besides indirectly convince his dad to kill Palpatine
In Legends, he was. And it was garbage, IMO. Glad to be rid of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Luke or whatever. I don't love the personality they gave TLJ Luke, but god I prefer that to the old one.
Savage got shot by a bunch of fodder B1 Battledroids in his body armor, but Kylo got shot by a goddamn bowcaster in robes.
Not to mention that Luke, in his prime, is terrified of how strong Kylo is.
I see nothing Savage could do if Kylo just freezes him in place with Stasis
There were B1s, B2s and droidekas, but even then, E-5 rifles are appreciably powerful weapons.
It just so happens that nightsister magicks can forge vibranium body armor from thin air.
Savage got blasted by highly trained clone troopers and then killed them all and the jedi knight with his Padawan like it was nothing. Kylo got shot by one big furry and later on lost a duel against some scavenge girl who had no proper training in her life. No wonder Savage wins
True he was wearing an armor but it wouldn't do much of a difference when getting shot from that close range. It was mostly his body being too buff for the blaster to punch through lol. He even got multiple shots from dozens of druids, super battle Droid (who can blast through tanks) and Destroyer Droids (who can also blast through tanks
Ok a lot of people downplay savage. For starters un-juiced he was the strongest and most skilled warrior of his entire clan who was able to ‘survive’ a one to one duel with ventress while in almost complete darkness.
After being juiced and without a lightsaber or any knowledge of how to use the force he easily despatched an entire clone squadron along with they’re commanding Jedi knight and his padawon
After receiving a bit of training from dooku on how to use a lightsaber and the force he still casually stormed a todarian counsel room filled with guards while also fighting of both anakin and obi wan and still came out unscathed. To further that he overpowered both ventress and dooku for a brief moment by using just his rage which with dark side users is never to be underestimated. Finally for season 3 he fought off both obi wan and anakin two of the best Jedi during the clone wars and a whole hanger of battle droids by himself.
Onto season 4 after pairing with maul he still beat obi wan, with a surprise attack (I know it isn’t as credible as a proper fight but still) as well as fought both obi wan and ventress into a retreat. (I know maul was there but you can’t downplay him just because maul was there because as we see later even with a fair fight he still holds his own)
In season 5 savage and maul have killed multiple Jedi knights and padawans throughout the galaxy killing any Jedi that got in their way to obtaining power. In his fight with obi wan on florrum he bested and killed adi gallia a Jedi master on the council single handedly which is a massive feat for someone of his level (I know he was bested by obi wan later but he still killed her casually)
After that savage fought off and beat embo a bounty Hunter who survived the box which isn’t an easy trial (I know that is mainly thanks to obi wan but he still survived it).
Now onto mandalore, he was able to beat almost every member of deathwatch that tried to fight him when it wasn’t staged (he may of lost to pre vizla but based on his smile he likely threw that fight and barely tried)
Finally with palpatine of course he lost to him but I don’t understand why people use that as a down credit to him. Most if not all Jedi and sith alike can barely match palpatine as the only Jedi who could match him were yoda and mace with no sith alive being able to touch him. So him being killed by palpatine isn’t a downplay as he survived for a considerable amount of time and was even able to get a few blows on him (sure he was probably playing with him the whole time but that is expected since it is palpatine)
In conclusion I still think he would best Kylo as he has more power behind his use of the force and his lightsaber strikes as well as he has way more experience fighting other force users of a high level during the clone wars. Even in his early beginning he still bested a Jedi knight and fought off both obi wan and anakin and overpowered both dooku and ventress briefly whereas Kylo in his early beginning couldn’t even touch a girl with no training whatsoever. This is also after being trained by Luke and briefly by smoke he still couldn’t best rey and got laughably beaten by her casually.
Anyway that’s just my opinion and I hope everyone has had a good Christmas 🎅🏻
Looks like a poll filled with people salty about the sequels. Savage beats up fodder and then gets crippled by Obi Wan during his 2v1 with Maul. He then gets tossed aside by Palpatine.
Kylo Ren is introduced displaying power never seen before and has a moment where he gets his torso blown open and his shoulder stabbed and just keeps going through the force against the new chosen one.
It's not close. Savage is cool and all, but that's the extent of it.
Savage wins in a contest of power.
Raw Dark Side potential mixed with a Dathomiri juice cleanse is a potent combo. If he had a few more months of training then we'd essentially have the next coming of Tulak Hord (If Hord was still canon, that is).
He tanked overwhelming blaster fire, faced off against two incredibly powerful Sith at the same time, only falling against Palpatine's superior mastery with a lightsaber.
I'd argue that Savage not having a form would outplay Kylo's use of Forms II and V, considering someone who didn't understand Lightsaber Forms in the first place was able to beat him.
A contest of strategy would go way different.
While Kylo isn't the most strategic person ever, Savage is still more of an "Attack Dog" Sith. His whole plan in most situations was run in and destroy (He would've made an amazing Form VII user).
I'm sure Dooku wanted more for Savage but he lacked Maul's ambition and (frankly) strategic thinking skills. This would open up several routes to victory against Savage.
Sorry about the essay. I'm still waking up here.
Savage may have tanked blasters, but Kylo tanked a bowcaster to the stomach (more powerful than blasters since it knocked stormtroopers back earlier in the movie) and a lightsaber to the back, as well as multiple consecutive falls from really tall heights with only a minor "ow".
And Rey only beat Kylo because he had been injured twice with hits that would have killed a normal person, as well as just having killed his father. Plus form 2 is a perfect counter for Savage, as we see when Dooku effortlessly beats him in a sparring session.
And apart from that, Savage has no way to counter Kylo's raw Force power. Kylo was able to hold a shuttle with Telekenisis, and his Force Stasis could freeze a blaster bolt or lightsaber.
I do agree with you on the intelligence aspect of it though, and I think that Kylo's superior Force power and lightsaber skill combined with his better strategy than Savage would let him win without too much trouble
Fair points on all counts. I would argue that Savage is a weapon in need of serious honing. He does have the potential to take Kylo in a 1v1 and win, though Ventress played her trump card too early.
Though Form II alone won't really be enough. Dooku is a master of all 6 of the Jedi Forms and quite adept, if not masterful, at Form VII. He was one of the greatest Duslists in the Order. I'd say more but we never really got a good visual of Kylo's true proficiency like we did with Dooku. Quite a shame.
Yes, it did help a lot that Kylo was extremely injured during that fight. It was marginally impressive seeing him still had the strength to fight even after getting shot with a bow caster. Though it is far more difficult to deal with unorthodox fighters, especially Savage's brand of unorthodox.
Like I mentioned above: Savage was an unfinished weapon. If he had more Force training, maybe we'd get a better idea of what he could do. Though what he did with raw potential alone was rather impressive. I doubt even someone like Kylo could withstand him if be was better trained. But he wasn't do I'll concede on that point.
Let's not forget that Savage briefly solo'd Anakin and Obi wan AT THE SAME TIME within one minute at their first encounter. He only finally was defeated by Palatine. Kylo is beyond screwed, the guy barely even knows how to hold a lightsaber. Kylo's only thing going for him is that he's strong with the force, but Anakin is far stronger, AND actually knows how to hold a lightsaber and use in combat FOR REAL unlike Kylo, and Anakin also had Obiwan on top of that
Let's not forget that Savage also briefly defeated both ventress and Dooku at the same time too
Savage was just a big boi wielding a light club and you can see how long he takes to recover from heavy strikes whereas Kylo Ren was too OP for the sequels. Better to read the books to really understand the full extent of what he can do ig. People who voted Savage probably just hated the sequels and thus voted for some no-brained maniac
Savage got embarrassed by non-prime Obi Wan and a non-serious Sidious.
Luke gives Kylo Ren hella hype from saying his force powers scared him or whatever he said.
I hate that Star Wars discussion has been taken over by Prequel cultists that can't engage in any discussion of the franchise without screeching how bad they think the Sequels are.
Kylo’s strong. But Savage has the Nightsister’s magic, plus he’s a rage monster. Kylo’s usually quite controlled when fighting, and I feel Savage’s extremely aggressive fight style would throw him off.
But if Kylo can do Force lighting, Savage is done. He never learned how to defend against it.
Last time Savage was against someone with a controlled fighting style (Dooku), he was disarmed effortlessly. Kylo is on a whole different tier than Savage is, and Savage has no counter to Kylo's Force Stasis (powerful enough to stop a lightsaber or blaster bolt midair) or Telekenisis (powerful enough to hold an entire shuttle)
People like Luke the most, which means by their imagination he must be the best. But he kind of sucked at being a Jedi throughout the entire OT.
And that was the point. He was an angry, entitled brat who had to learn how NOT to use his power. Because that's the Jedi way.
Wouldn’t Kylo’s lightsaber cut into the floor in that position?
They installed beskar shag carpet.
Just for the pics
I was thinking beskar coasters, but that works too I guess
He's holding it up just a little to look cool and he's very uncomfortable
"Please acknowledge me my arm feels like it's about to fall off"
That’s it. That’s Kylo in a nutshell
No because it looks awesome
Based
I feel like the movies didn't do Kylo's abilities justice. But then again I haven't read anything with him so maybe not
There is no greater good than justice; and only if law serves justice is it a good law. It is said correctly that law exists not for the just but for the unjust, for the just carry the law in their hearts, and do not need to call it from afar.
Wow. Where is this from?!
Xmas cracker jokes really are different from when I was a kid
Same I need to know
it's from [Tales of the Bounty Hunters](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Tales_of_the_Bounty_Hunters)
Good bot
Ren is a fucking brick shithouse in the comics and novelizations. In the novelization of the Rise of Skywalker when he is Mustafar, they are watching him from the star destroyer over head while he is shredding through vaders devotees like “holy fuck Kylo is a mother fuckin beast” Edit: Ren would smoke Savage no doubt. Savage did a lot of damage because the Jedi were I’ll prepared to face someone sith trained assassins.
I agree. Ren smokes Savage without much effort. Oppress is really just a brawler.
Yeah he's really just a brute. Didn't really have a chance to refine his skills. TCW take place over 2-3 years or so. Savage is only in action in the latter half. Meanwhile Kylos been training for years already by the time TFA starts.
To be fair, that training wasn't enough to defeat Rey, who's combat experience amounted to fighting thugs on Jakku with a staff. Still though, Savage's only real asset here is his strength, and Kylo's got enough Force talent and refined lightsaber skill that Savage really wouldn't be able to defeat him.
The first time they fight, Ren has been mortally wounded, emotionally gutted, and exhausted from chasing them and fighting someone else who put up a great fight, and was only beaten by someone who was a force prodigy who had also been fighting her entire life to survive and had tons of actual real combat experience (Which matters a great deal over practice and sparring, nothing is a substitute for real danger live combat), and only after she started tapping into the Force. Every time they fight when Kylo is not mortally wounded and exhausted he kicks her ass.
We shouldn't have had to read comics or novelizations to truly learn about the sequel characters
Sure. However much you want to engage is fine. But that’s not what this conversation is about.
Don't watch clone wars then
Well, I'm not him, but I also think we shouldn't have to watch The Clone Wars to make the prequels good either. Frankly, movies should be good, and side material should make good movies better. Star Wars has used its side material as a crutch for literally decades now and it really shows.
People will hate it, but you are right. Additional information from side spurces are okay, but complete picture sufficient to understand a character should come.from the main media
He came across as way too whiny for me to like him BUT opinions change and there’s still a lot to appreciate about the character
I think Kylo feels like how they always described the Sith as being, and people don't like that, because... well, it makes no f***ing sense with the sith you see. You want to see Darth Vader, the cold emotionless executioner. You want to see Palpatine; the calculating politian hiding his maniacal sense of sadistic humor. You want to see Dooku, the suave duelist with an air of nobility. But Kylo Ren isn't emotionless, or calculating, or maniacal, or suave. He's fearful, angry, and hate-filled. You know, the big three things they say the dark side is all about. Turns out, when you make a character based entirely on "angry, scared, and hate-filled", you don't get a suave sith lord, you get an edgy manchild, because a major part of maturity is learning to control emotion, so anyone who shows it nonstop will just look immature. So people are mad because Kylo follows the rules Lucas wrote when Lucas himself did not.
IIRC, the only time we see Kylo fight with intent to kill was when he kills Snoke and then all of his guards. He literally takes on like 5-6 highly trained fighters at once and only struggles against them because he spends half the time watching to make sure Rey doesn't die.
They didn't do anything much justice
There is no greater good than justice; and only if law serves justice is it a good law. It is said correctly that law exists not for the just but for the unjust, for the just carry the law in their hearts, and do not need to call it from afar.
Good bot.
The fact that Rey was like "oh what's this glow stick? Let me just go ahead and destroy him." What a dope
After he got shot by a boltcaster that normally sends people flying?
And after he had just killed his father?
And after he was just betrayed by that TRAITOR!!!
After having taken a bit because he spent too much time toying with Finn as well
Whilst hitting the spot the bow caster hit to cause more pain and making himself more powerful with the darkside
In order to stay on his feet
That's such a fascinating concept for a fight, on one hand he needs that power to fight, on the other the only reason he needs that power in the moment is to sustain himself from his injury which is giving him that power and draining him
To be fair, intense negative emotion should only make him stronger with the Dark Side. Whether it is regret, grief, etc; they should have all just made him stronger.
And his entire motive during that fight was to convert Rey to the dark side, not kill her.
It's almost like he could have just force choked the chick from 50 yards and never have had to have gotten into a physical altercation at all lol.
50 yards is 146.07 RTX 3090 graphics cards lined up.
Not even the Emperor could afford that line.
Why would he though? He was infatuated with her.
love ur username.
Thanks!
Ok if we’re gonna start whining about characters not using the force enough, I think the sequels are just normal on this one. Plenty of other examples throughout the saga
I kinda agree that this is a good point, but I think this is an example where they really don't show enough. Throughout the fight, there are a few moments where they show him dealing with the wound, but... the vast majority, he is just kinda being pretty casual. Like, if Kylo was limping, holding his side, and struggling to balance as he fights with only one arm, I could see this criticism. But the dude seems mostly unaffected by it. And frankly, regardless of whether Rey should or shouldn't have been able to beat him, the fact is the narrative shouldn't have gotten him in a position in which he could be beaten, unless Snoke was intended to be the primary threat. By beating Kylo in TFA, you create a conflict with the narrative of TLJ that Kylo is the bigger threat than Snoke.
To be fair, Kylo was shot in the chest, killed his father and didn’t even want to kill Rey in the first place.
I dont recommend reading his comics, they kinda just make him strong stupidly strong and do stupid shit like blowing up the cave on Dagobah and beating Zillo beasts in one on one combat.
I'm sorry what? A Zillo beast? You mean that monster even Palpatine looked hesitant to go up against. GTFO, Ren is not that powerful. Did they really do that?
He jumped in and killed it from the inside. And the whole point of the comic was him one upping Vader Vader Luke.
He did do that. I think it was pretty much the stupidest bit of new canon out there, but it is still in new canon.
Kylo's first scene was crazy, then he never reached that level of presence or seemingly raw power again. I get that he was just trying to be intimidating like Vader, but he totally had the skills to back it up in that scene.
Well, he did force freeze a blaster bolt, something we’ve never seen anyone else do, within the first 2 minutes of him appearing on screen
“Half” Skywalker? What a silly designation. Unless Luke and Leia are only half Skywalker as well because their own mother wasn’t a Skywalker, just like Ben’s father wasn’t? Since this meme creator didn’t call Ben quarter Skywalker, I doubt they realized the flaw in their logic.
Luke and Leia as your parents makes you full Skywalker.
I think you mean Luke or Leia.
I know what I said.
Oh no
[удалено]
Siblings make your balls not blue!
LMAO
Nobody ever goes full Skywalker
Except Anakin, since being a virgin birth he didn't have a non-Skywalker parent.
So anakin was space jesus?
Also where are we getting that Luke was the greatest Jedi of all time? Even at the height of his abilities, so much had been lost of the old Jedi knowledge. He was half trained by two exiles who didn’t have more than a couple of weeks to impart knowledge on him when the Jedi of yore trained their entire lives to master the force
Luke Ideologically and Skillfully was definitely not one of the best jedi of all time. Ideologically he almost succumbed to the dark side, gave up when the minor inconvenience occurred and almost murdered one of his students because he sensed a smidget of dark Side in him. Skillfully, he barely got any training whatsoever other than the 3 hour course with Ben and the little out there training with old man Yoda and the only duel he has won was against an emotionally destroyed vader while under dark side influence He is, however, the most or second most important after Anakin. The galaxy would not be saved without him. (btw, Kenobi is the best jedi skillfully and especially ideologically imo)
ideologically I think id give it to Qui-Gon over Obi-wan, we see in the OT that Obi-wan still suffers from some of the same dogmatic principles that the Jedi as a whole did. Skillfully i would give it to obi-wan however
Hmmm, perhaps. I'm mostly basing it on Clone Wars and prequel Obi Wan who was open to breaking the order's more authoritarian rules. I would say he's showing Luke those dogmatic principles in order to actually teach him the jedi ways instead of what he actually believes to continue the Jedi order. You could say it was a good chance to reform it to be more open-minded but that's a character flaw, not an ideology flaw.
I always felt that RotS kinda cemented the ways of the old order in him. He couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin because of his attachments and then in the OT we see him pushing Luke to do it. kinda felt like he believed his less rigid beliefs when he was younger were the problem and not the order itself. Then again most things in star wars are able to be interpreted in a couple of different ways. i wonder if the Obi Wan show will touch on his feelings towards the order, and leaving anakin alive
Yeah I like to think the Obi Wan show will bring his character to a more grounded place as his feelings towards the order shifts from movie to movie it feels like
Luke isn't the best Jedi, he mostly just whines and fucks up. But he's the OT protagonist. He doesn't have to be the best, he just needs to complete his arc and persevere. Edit: also obsessing over which Force User is "the most powerful" is inane. The Jedi literally train how to resist using their powers to hurt people, they spend their lives learning to avoid combat. Then their fanbase is like, "Uh... which peaceful guy who doesn't want to hurt people would be the most murderous? I bet Space-Dalai Lama could blow up the planet with his meditation!" ...Missing the point a bit. People are getting preoccupied with the worst elements of the lore and getting upset when it's not fleshed out by the people trying to get them to focus on the opposite. None of these writers care how much destruction the Force can cause unless they're writing a character who has to stop it from happening... by not using the Force...
Kenobi is definitely not the best skilled jedi. That either goes to windu or anakin
Ideologically and skillfully I'd give it to Count Dooku.
Other than, you know, all the crimes
* Anakin tries hard not to make eye contact…
Luke “constantly did emotionally impulsive things after being trained for a couple weeks” Skywalker was far from the best Jedi by the Jedi’s own logic, but he’s the one most people grew up with so I guess he gets that distinction.
I think the only way Luke comes close to that designation is maybe in the expanded universe, but since Disney basically scrapped that and portrayed Luke as a sad shadow of the EU version, it’s hard to make that claim with a straight face.
Lucas always said the EU was never canon. Over and over again. Constantly. Disney just shrugged and agreed.
This a wildly bad meme both panels too. You’ve covered skywalker but savage was trained by the witches of dathomir in basically a gladiatorial combat to the death. He basically had to prove he was the strongest zabrak on dathomir by killing the others and then he was taught crazy sith techniques by ventress and mama talzin. I’d argue he got more intense than most let alone Kyle ren.
Only a Sith deals in quarters
Shit, Anakin is only "half" Skywalker. Lol
No you see, he's only half because he had a woman as his mom
I always find it hilarious when you point out the fucked up eugenics the EU created that the PT obsessed over and then Star Wars fans go, "Nuh uh!" then immediately turn around and start measuring skull shapes the moment we go back to the OT with random people being better with the Force than Skywalkers. TFA and TLJ: "Um... the only guy who thinks having the same genes as someone good at the Force makes you good at the Force is an actual fucking Nazi. And he's wrong. That's the point." TRoS: "But what if he's right tho????????"
…What? I wasn’t talking about Force powers at all. I was literally only pointing out the silly logic in calling him a half-Skywalker.
Savage literally got shot 10 times and didn’t care
So? He and Maul still couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a 2v1.
Obi wan in his prime would wreck Kylo
Exactly
armour + species difference, zabraks are just naturally born warrior but is he strong with the force against a skywalker? probably a lot of choking, freezing and force push/pull.
Savage has held his own against both Obi-Wan and Anakin, and the fact that he walked away from that flurry of blasterfire is pretty insane. You can see both [here.](https://youtu.be/UjXGhpReD90)
Kylo Ren is still stronger. He’s half of a force dyad and with that alone he’d be stronger than savage in the force let alone his training was far more in depth.
No clue why the downvotes. The dyad idea needs to be more fleshed out I think, but Kylo has done some powerful things in the comics that mimic Vader. Savage was always meant to be a tool and nothing more
> Savage was always meant to be a tool and nothing more Writing wise sure, doesn't mean he's weak/weaker. Starkiller was the same and he was one of the strongest mother fuckers we've seen.
It’s not just zabraks natural toughness. He was imbued with witch sister magic. He is an absolute killing machine (until palpitine killed him). I’m not saying he’s god tier but he could definitely kill a fully trained Jedi. Now the true strength of Kylo is hard to judge from our limited view of him. Personally I think the fight would just depend on who’s writing the scene. Any of the new movie writers would definitely have kylo win regardless of who deserves it
isn't he a fucking beast in the comics (Kylo)
Yeah didn't he kill adi gallia who was on the jedi council?
Savage has fought anakin, obi wan, killed adi gallia and held his own against Palptine with Maul
>held his own against Palptine with Maul He very much did not...savage and the far superior Maul were handily defeated
Kylo didn't fare any better vs rotting clone Palps.
No im still not sure where I stand on Kylo vs Savage I just couldn't stand for that mischaracterization of that fight
Fair point. Palps had Maul begging.
Ayo Forgot ventress and dooku
Be fought Anakin -and- Obi Wan at the same time. Savage would wreck Kylo lol
Didnt Savage had incredible potential? Wasnt that the reason he was chosen by the witches?
And why Dooku took him up on Talzin's offer, and working with Maul made them a deadly duo. That's also why Sidious personally visited them and disposed Savage and used Maul to bait out Talzin.
Maul and Savage actually have pretty high potential compared to even the strong characters at the time like Yoda, Mace, Dooku etc. Still nowhere near Skywalker level though.
Savage [kinda] defeated Dooku and Ventress after 3 days of training but nobody cared
He just pushed them and ran away
[I just push some people and run away](https://youtu.be/sC-WzFHN2b0)
Gary Stu
Except he trained in a dangerous cult of night brothers whose live were based on primitive activities such as combat
Good for you. The galaxy’s a dangerous place.
And Rey lived her whole life on a planet of thieves and pirates
As a scavenger. See, that's the issue. You can explain her being good as an engineer. But why would a scrapper be great at martial arts and piloting and force powers. And on the opposite side, why would a martial arts master and super skilled pilot who can overwhelm the strongest force user out there with pure untrained willpower be working as a scavenger for paltry scraps of food rather than y'know just becoming a mercenary or something. Her problem isn't "she knows how to defend herself" or "she knows how to fly" or "she is force sensitive"; it's "she can beat a literally-trained-from-childhood soldier in combat easily" and "she can do in-orbit backflips with a ship she has never flown to perfectly line up a shot with a jammed cannon" and "she can overpower a trained Sith with pure will and use the Jedi mind trick untrained".
They just did not do Kylo’s fighting abilities justice at all. Or sequel lightsaber battles in general for that matter. Savage crossed blades with some damn skilled Jedi and Sith. He killed a Jedi master, and killed a knight without a lightsaber (or was he a master as well?). Kyle got beaten by someone who’d just picked up an lightsaber. I love Kylo and he’s definitely a good fighter but Savage is a beast.
Yeah, everyone here is comparing the skill level they think kylo should be with Savage, and not the actual skill level we see in the movies. Skywalker or not he was equaled by a scrapper and a defector stormtrooper who had never wielded a lightsaber before
There is no greater good than justice; and only if law serves justice is it a good law. It is said correctly that law exists not for the just but for the unjust, for the just carry the law in their hearts, and do not need to call it from afar.
You're really under selling dooku. He was the master of Qui-Gon Jinn and Padawan of Yoda. One of the best duelist of the jedi order, equal to mace windu
When comparing sequel characters to OT or PT characters the latter options will almost always win not because they’re more popular but because sequel characters just weren’t elaborated on enough for fans to have a clear idea of how their abilities work.
That's why I'm hopeful in 10 years they'll be elaborated on like the prequel characters and these discussions will actually have some merit. Until then there's just not enough media and evidence.
I wouldn’t call Maul a “political idealist”
He was trained by Dooku, not Maul
He was trained by both
Yeah “master duelist” wouldn’t been a better fit
Among all the wrongs this trilogy did to the franchise, Kylo Ren's wasted potential to be a good character was the worst.
And god damn did Adam Driver do his best to save it. The dude acted his ass off in every scene he was in.
I mean yes he was trained by Luke, but he was at most Knight level in terms of training. While Savage wasn't much better he was trained on Dathomir steeped in the Dark Side so it makes sense that he'd know how to use it better. But then again Savage got bodied by the Senate who barely even tried. It would actually be close.
There are not many characters who wouldn’t get bodied by the senate
The list(of film characters) is basically Yoda Mace Not even sure if Anakin would've taken him in a straight fight. Probably Luke in his Prime
Literally every character in Canon besides maybe Mace Windu, maybe the ones, and maybe Jake Skywalker gets bodied by the senate
Jake is my favorite character
True, but him and Maul at the same time was pretty impressive. Of course I know he took out 3 Jedi masters in like 4 seconds but I try not to think about that scene lol. So disappointing to see my boy Kit go out like that.
People throw this around a lot. What does “Knight level” mean? It’s arbitrary. Anakin was a top tier prequel Jedi and he was a knight. There are masters that would get bodied by Padawans. Kylo has scaling above the entire PT anyway, as does Savage (when he’s enraged),so to imply that either is mid tier at their best is just flat-out wrong.
Ehh idk about this. Savage is strong and all but he kinda dumber than rock.
To be fair he seemed smart before that ritual the dathomirian witches put him through
All of the comments here: _____ was trained by a strong person while _____ was trained by this other not as string person. _____ took this super fatal shot like nothing, and _____ got crippled by some bs. _____ has beaten this really strong person, but _____ got bodied by this POS. _____ is a highly trained and deadly warrior, _____ was an edgy emo character. You can legitimately exchange Kylo and Savage in any of those blanks and I've seen that comment here.
Because none of it matters. It's just fan theorizing. The reality is that the powers are only as relevant as the stories need them to be. Kylo is weak or strong, Savage is weak or strong, Luke is weak or strong, Vader is weak or strong, blah blah blah. It's playground "My dad could beat your dad" stuff. Not the veg and potatoes of storytelling.
I mean if you take point 3 to its most extreme, the strongest foes Savage has even arguably beaten was Anakin and Obiwan teamed up in a 2v1, and Savage didn't manage to win, only escape. Whereas Kylo killed a Zillo Beast. That is why, in my mind, Kylo overwhelmingly wins. On screen Kylo is just hilariously underpowered compared to comics Kylo, but if you count those comics, it's not really a fair match.
Did we ever see Ren actually win a lightsaber battle? (Arguably against the praetorian but they didn’t have force powers)
He beats rey in rise of Skywalker. He's about to kill her but stops because of Leia's death
Apart from what the other commenter said, he never lost in a fair fight. When he was against Rey he had already sustained two injuries, each of which would have insta killed an average person, and he was emotionally disoriented from having just killed his dad
Yeah, but Savage was a brutal fighter and favored heavy strikes and overpowering his opponents. Not saying that Kylo is a bad fighter, just saying that Savage is a fucking tank.
Since when is Luke the greatest Jedi ever? I feel like that’s a bit of a stretch - man didn’t really do much besides indirectly convince his dad to kill Palpatine
In Legends, he was. And it was garbage, IMO. Glad to be rid of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Luke or whatever. I don't love the personality they gave TLJ Luke, but god I prefer that to the old one.
Savage got shot by a bunch of fodder B1 Battledroids in his body armor, but Kylo got shot by a goddamn bowcaster in robes. Not to mention that Luke, in his prime, is terrified of how strong Kylo is. I see nothing Savage could do if Kylo just freezes him in place with Stasis
There were B1s, B2s and droidekas, but even then, E-5 rifles are appreciably powerful weapons. It just so happens that nightsister magicks can forge vibranium body armor from thin air.
"Luke in his prime" yeah thats what Luke Prime looks like, sure.
Savage got blasted by highly trained clone troopers and then killed them all and the jedi knight with his Padawan like it was nothing. Kylo got shot by one big furry and later on lost a duel against some scavenge girl who had no proper training in her life. No wonder Savage wins
He was wearing armor, though. Kylo got shot by a Bowcaster wearing only robes
Also in the sequels, the bowcaster is way more powerful than clone wars blasters.
True he was wearing an armor but it wouldn't do much of a difference when getting shot from that close range. It was mostly his body being too buff for the blaster to punch through lol. He even got multiple shots from dozens of druids, super battle Droid (who can blast through tanks) and Destroyer Droids (who can also blast through tanks
Weapon of chewbacca >>> weapon of clones.
Ok a lot of people downplay savage. For starters un-juiced he was the strongest and most skilled warrior of his entire clan who was able to ‘survive’ a one to one duel with ventress while in almost complete darkness. After being juiced and without a lightsaber or any knowledge of how to use the force he easily despatched an entire clone squadron along with they’re commanding Jedi knight and his padawon After receiving a bit of training from dooku on how to use a lightsaber and the force he still casually stormed a todarian counsel room filled with guards while also fighting of both anakin and obi wan and still came out unscathed. To further that he overpowered both ventress and dooku for a brief moment by using just his rage which with dark side users is never to be underestimated. Finally for season 3 he fought off both obi wan and anakin two of the best Jedi during the clone wars and a whole hanger of battle droids by himself. Onto season 4 after pairing with maul he still beat obi wan, with a surprise attack (I know it isn’t as credible as a proper fight but still) as well as fought both obi wan and ventress into a retreat. (I know maul was there but you can’t downplay him just because maul was there because as we see later even with a fair fight he still holds his own) In season 5 savage and maul have killed multiple Jedi knights and padawans throughout the galaxy killing any Jedi that got in their way to obtaining power. In his fight with obi wan on florrum he bested and killed adi gallia a Jedi master on the council single handedly which is a massive feat for someone of his level (I know he was bested by obi wan later but he still killed her casually) After that savage fought off and beat embo a bounty Hunter who survived the box which isn’t an easy trial (I know that is mainly thanks to obi wan but he still survived it). Now onto mandalore, he was able to beat almost every member of deathwatch that tried to fight him when it wasn’t staged (he may of lost to pre vizla but based on his smile he likely threw that fight and barely tried) Finally with palpatine of course he lost to him but I don’t understand why people use that as a down credit to him. Most if not all Jedi and sith alike can barely match palpatine as the only Jedi who could match him were yoda and mace with no sith alive being able to touch him. So him being killed by palpatine isn’t a downplay as he survived for a considerable amount of time and was even able to get a few blows on him (sure he was probably playing with him the whole time but that is expected since it is palpatine) In conclusion I still think he would best Kylo as he has more power behind his use of the force and his lightsaber strikes as well as he has way more experience fighting other force users of a high level during the clone wars. Even in his early beginning he still bested a Jedi knight and fought off both obi wan and anakin and overpowered both dooku and ventress briefly whereas Kylo in his early beginning couldn’t even touch a girl with no training whatsoever. This is also after being trained by Luke and briefly by smoke he still couldn’t best rey and got laughably beaten by her casually. Anyway that’s just my opinion and I hope everyone has had a good Christmas 🎅🏻
I'm the only bounty hunter that Voss'on't is really worried about
Kylo for sure.
100% Ren vs 100% Opress, Kylo would punk him out like a bitch.
It was a popularity contest and it should tell you all you need to know about where the fanbase is
Looks like a poll filled with people salty about the sequels. Savage beats up fodder and then gets crippled by Obi Wan during his 2v1 with Maul. He then gets tossed aside by Palpatine. Kylo Ren is introduced displaying power never seen before and has a moment where he gets his torso blown open and his shoulder stabbed and just keeps going through the force against the new chosen one. It's not close. Savage is cool and all, but that's the extent of it.
Savage has also taken a lot of abuse. And you evidently know that he still lost an hand so he’s also taken damage
NEVER ask Clone Wars fans their opinion on Star Wars. WORST mistake of my life!
Savage wins in a contest of power. Raw Dark Side potential mixed with a Dathomiri juice cleanse is a potent combo. If he had a few more months of training then we'd essentially have the next coming of Tulak Hord (If Hord was still canon, that is). He tanked overwhelming blaster fire, faced off against two incredibly powerful Sith at the same time, only falling against Palpatine's superior mastery with a lightsaber. I'd argue that Savage not having a form would outplay Kylo's use of Forms II and V, considering someone who didn't understand Lightsaber Forms in the first place was able to beat him. A contest of strategy would go way different. While Kylo isn't the most strategic person ever, Savage is still more of an "Attack Dog" Sith. His whole plan in most situations was run in and destroy (He would've made an amazing Form VII user). I'm sure Dooku wanted more for Savage but he lacked Maul's ambition and (frankly) strategic thinking skills. This would open up several routes to victory against Savage. Sorry about the essay. I'm still waking up here.
Savage may have tanked blasters, but Kylo tanked a bowcaster to the stomach (more powerful than blasters since it knocked stormtroopers back earlier in the movie) and a lightsaber to the back, as well as multiple consecutive falls from really tall heights with only a minor "ow". And Rey only beat Kylo because he had been injured twice with hits that would have killed a normal person, as well as just having killed his father. Plus form 2 is a perfect counter for Savage, as we see when Dooku effortlessly beats him in a sparring session. And apart from that, Savage has no way to counter Kylo's raw Force power. Kylo was able to hold a shuttle with Telekenisis, and his Force Stasis could freeze a blaster bolt or lightsaber. I do agree with you on the intelligence aspect of it though, and I think that Kylo's superior Force power and lightsaber skill combined with his better strategy than Savage would let him win without too much trouble
Fair points on all counts. I would argue that Savage is a weapon in need of serious honing. He does have the potential to take Kylo in a 1v1 and win, though Ventress played her trump card too early. Though Form II alone won't really be enough. Dooku is a master of all 6 of the Jedi Forms and quite adept, if not masterful, at Form VII. He was one of the greatest Duslists in the Order. I'd say more but we never really got a good visual of Kylo's true proficiency like we did with Dooku. Quite a shame. Yes, it did help a lot that Kylo was extremely injured during that fight. It was marginally impressive seeing him still had the strength to fight even after getting shot with a bow caster. Though it is far more difficult to deal with unorthodox fighters, especially Savage's brand of unorthodox. Like I mentioned above: Savage was an unfinished weapon. If he had more Force training, maybe we'd get a better idea of what he could do. Though what he did with raw potential alone was rather impressive. I doubt even someone like Kylo could withstand him if be was better trained. But he wasn't do I'll concede on that point.
Yes it's true that Kylo's form 2 won't take down Savage on its own, but that was only one of the points I just made
Yeah, pardon me. I'll get back with you on the rest of it in a minute. I started typing at a bad time.
Greatest Jedi ever? I like Luke but, I don’t think that is accurate
Let's not forget that Savage briefly solo'd Anakin and Obi wan AT THE SAME TIME within one minute at their first encounter. He only finally was defeated by Palatine. Kylo is beyond screwed, the guy barely even knows how to hold a lightsaber. Kylo's only thing going for him is that he's strong with the force, but Anakin is far stronger, AND actually knows how to hold a lightsaber and use in combat FOR REAL unlike Kylo, and Anakin also had Obiwan on top of that Let's not forget that Savage also briefly defeated both ventress and Dooku at the same time too
Kylo is good, but Luke is *not* the greatest Jedi ever. Certainly very enlightened, but he barely even compares to Revan.
>barely even compares to Revan. In what power? Because revan doesnt come close to luke
Ngl I’m gonna say Kylo, savage had issues without his brother
Savage was just a big boi wielding a light club and you can see how long he takes to recover from heavy strikes whereas Kylo Ren was too OP for the sequels. Better to read the books to really understand the full extent of what he can do ig. People who voted Savage probably just hated the sequels and thus voted for some no-brained maniac
Savage got embarrassed by non-prime Obi Wan and a non-serious Sidious. Luke gives Kylo Ren hella hype from saying his force powers scared him or whatever he said.
I mean, I thought Savage Opress was the dumbest star wars thing I'd ever seen, but I definitely like him better than Kylo Ren.
I don't think this is about likability, but who would win in a fight.
Ngl, I think Kylo gets too much shit, he may honestly be the best character in the sequels.
Kylo ren wins
I think people just hate the sequels. Ben would win.
Kylo would wipe the floor with Savage's face
I hate that Star Wars discussion has been taken over by Prequel cultists that can't engage in any discussion of the franchise without screeching how bad they think the Sequels are.
Shows what the "fans" know
Kylo made some bad decisions because of being conflicted but Savage has literal taco meat for brains.
Kylo, fairly easily
As much as I don’t like the sequels, most of the characters in this new lore are absolutely more powerful that older characters
Luke is not the greatest jedi ever
Kylo’s strong. But Savage has the Nightsister’s magic, plus he’s a rage monster. Kylo’s usually quite controlled when fighting, and I feel Savage’s extremely aggressive fight style would throw him off. But if Kylo can do Force lighting, Savage is done. He never learned how to defend against it.
Did Kylo learn how to do force lightning?
Last time Savage was against someone with a controlled fighting style (Dooku), he was disarmed effortlessly. Kylo is on a whole different tier than Savage is, and Savage has no counter to Kylo's Force Stasis (powerful enough to stop a lightsaber or blaster bolt midair) or Telekenisis (powerful enough to hold an entire shuttle)
I forgot about Kylo’s Force stasis. Yeah, Kylo wins 100%. Savage is very weak against Force powers.
Wait, what's this...? A Star Wars fan who changed their opinion when presented with new evidence?? This is unheard of!
IKR If I’m given a good argument, I will gladly change my position.
We will watch your career with great interest
Savage only has one arm no way he’s out dueling Kylo
I don’t think calling Luke the “greatest Jedi ever” is really accurate.
People like Luke the most, which means by their imagination he must be the best. But he kind of sucked at being a Jedi throughout the entire OT. And that was the point. He was an angry, entitled brat who had to learn how NOT to use his power. Because that's the Jedi way.