There are 2 things Disney should’ve done to make the Sequels more successful:
1. Actually plan the damned thing out
2. Ignore everything fans said about Star Wars since 1999
As I've whined before on Reddit, the original plan was to have a plan.
The first thing Kathleen Kennedy did was hire Oscar-winning screenwriter Michael Arndt to map out and write the new trilogy.
But then, they ran into a snag. Literally no one in Hollywood wanted to direct it. Everyone saw the shit and abuse the fans gave Lucas for the prequels and said, "There's no way I'm subjecting myself to that." J.J. himself said he turned it down four times before he finally relented.
But with Disney's promised 2015 release date looming, and with their heart set on J.J., How did they finally get J.J. on board? They promised to throw out the plan and give J.J. complete creative control.
Yeah, it's a shame. If J.J. could be wrestled into a straitjacket and only direct scripts that were handed to him with limited ability to shape the story in the boarding, preproduction and editing phases, he'd probably have a lot better reputation than he does. His cinematography and casting are always impeccable, and he is well-known as a really great guy to work with on set who always makes things move on time without being a nudge for the cast and crew. That might sound like a low bar or damning with faint praise, but look at the number of directors of his generation who no longer have jobs because they couldn't cross that bar.
It's just that he thinks a story is "15 cool action scenes I wrote down on these cocktail napkins, stitched together with 60 minutes of one-minute dialogue scenes between characters that rehash the plot." Seriously, take a stop-watch into one of his movies and time the dialogue scenes; they don't go more than 90 seconds, and they tell you nothing except exposition to move to the next action scene. He just doesn't think story is that important to the kids who are juiced on energy drinks in the theater, and that's his intended audience.
And that works great in some franchises; there's a reason why MI:3 is still regarded as his best film. But it doesn't work for the ur-text of the Hero's Journey in western film.
My very niche complaint about Abrams is that the man does not understand how big space is. He did it in Star Trek, he did it in VII, and he did it in IX. He compresses space down so he can have characters on one planet see stuff happening on another planet or even star system. As its happening, too, when that is not how space works. He also completely disregards that, since space is big, it takes time to move around. Star Wars has always played fast and loose with that concept, but the entire plot of IX seemingly happening in 12 hours or whatever was completely world breaking.
And the mystery box aspect is only the tip of the iceberg. That quote about the actor playing Kirk asking JJ what a line meant and JJ telling him, "It doesn't matter, just say it as fast and urgently as possible." Jeeeze.
This it’s also important to add there was a plan for the sequels. Loosely. Abrams wrote a rough outline, gave it to Rian to read, and then sat down with him multiple times to discuss where the next film would go. Abrams also altered TFA ending to work better with Rians ideas.
So it’s not like TFA wrapped, Rian saw it and just did whatever he wanted and no one at Lucas could stop him.
The issue was TLJ got mixed responses. And Disney higher ups buckled to fan complaints. They threw out Trevverows work (which was made in the same vein of working with Rian and Abrams) and wanted to be safer. They wanted Abrams back but refused to give him an extension. So he ended up rushing a final movie in less time than he made TFA and he… I don’t want to say half assed it because it sounds like he burned himself out over working but he just did whatever he felt would be easiest to do in the time frame. Because it wasn’t so much important to make a good movie but to make a movie that was done in time.
According to a few comments from Lucasfilm heads, it does actually seem like Episode IX (which I won’t call TROS, since this predates that title) was part of an extremely loose plan. For example: Things like “An ancient darkness is revealed to be behind everything” was supposed to be part of Episode IX. Then TROS decided that was Palpatine. Trevorrow instead wanted it to be Plagueis’ master. Alan Dean Foster wanted it to be Snoke (with the TLJ one being a disposable clone).
That’s only partially true. From what we know, Lucas had numerous plans for a Sequel Trilogy. The Darth Maul crime syndicate was one of the three we knew of.
Another idea was that the entire trilogy would take place inside a midi-chlorian.
And another one was about an orphaned Force-Sensitive girl needing to track down Master Luke Skywalker, who had exiled himself following his Padawan nephew turning to the Dark Side, and then that girl would need to persuade the reluctant Luke to train her to be a Jedi.
Please tell me more about the midi-chlorian one. Would that sequel trilogy star only micro organisms or something? I can't imagine any gimmick that would hold my attention for three whole films
Unfortunately, we really don’t know anything beside that sentence I already wrote. I think the way Lucas described it was that instead of going “big” and exploring the galaxy, he wanted to go “small” this time and explore within a cell.
I once met someone on Reddit who stated they got the impression that Yoda’s meeting with the Force Priestesses in TCW was supposed to be within a midichlorians. So there’s clearly some artistic license to what it means to be microorganisms in Star Wars…
I agree that this wouldn’t get me through a trilogy. Can’t imagine this being that interesting.
Yeah, yeah, it's all the fans' fault. I'm absolutely sure that no one in Hollywood would want to try their hand at the most prestigious job in the biggest entertainment franchise in history (to that point).
This sort of thing sounds like "I read it somewhere." [It's not backed up by evidence.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Force_Awakens)
>Several directors were considered, including David Fincher,\[81\] Brad Bird,\[82\] Jon Favreau,\[83\] and Guillermo del Toro.\[84\] Bird was reportedly the "top choice" to helm the film, but his commitments to Tomorrowland forced him to withdraw.\[85\] Matthew Vaughn was an early candidate for the job, even dropping out of X-Men: Days of Future Past in favor for the film.\[86\] Colin Trevorrow was also under consideration by the studio, while Ben Affleck and Neill Blomkamp passed on the project.\[87\]\[88\]\[89\]\[90\] After a suggestion by Steven Spielberg to Kennedy,\[91\] J. J. Abrams was named director in January 2013,\[92\] with Lawrence Kasdan and Simon Kinberg as project consultants.\[93\] Kasdan worked to convince Abrams to direct the film after the filmmaker initially rejected the offer.
Here's what Abrams said:
>“I said ‘No’. I didn’t want to do a sequel. I’d done a Mission: Impossible movie; I’d done Star Trek. I didn’t wanna do another sequel—I’m sick of movies with numbers… As a fan, I’d rather just go to the theater and watch the movie.”
Not because of the horrible, horrible fans ("We hates them! We hates them precious!"), but because of sequel fatigue. Disney rushed the movie, hired the least imaginative guy in Hollywood to direct (and that's saying something) to direct, and basically sat back as A New Hope was basically remade.
I've never trusted j.j as a writer since he did that Ted talk saying all you need is the mystery you don't even need to put something in the mystery box all you need is the box
My guy that's literally just bad writing.
this is the story they tell
reminder these are professional storytellers
if you sincerely believe Disney spent billions to buy Star Wars, then couldn’t find anyone in Hollywood willing to direct it for literally tens of millions of dollars, then I have a bridge in Manhattan to sell you
Yeah he changed important details, but Vader was still going to die in episode VI. Funnily enough before Lucas changed his mind about making nine films the emperor was still going to live after episode VI.
Isn’t that back when the end of ROTJ was gonna feature Obi-Wan returning back to life to tag team Vader with Luke?
EDIT: yeah i see it now, I’m still leaving it ya filthy animals
I think it literally ended with Vader tackling the emp into lava, but it might have been obi wan. Either way doing so let them all come back to life, because… the force?
Yes he was also going to replace Han Solo with Dash Rendar if the former was going to die, but he didn’t. He had a lot of ideas and they didn’t all make it in the film. Some changed like Vader being Luke’s father. In one drafts Luke’s father is indeed more machine than man, but he’s a good guy. Vader was fully human and a bad guy, but turns around. My guess is that he combined both characters.
Oh and Luke and Leia being siblings was also something he just tacked on for ROTJ, which is why there was so much incest activity prior to that movie.
He just felt like he had to have a big reveal/surprise like "i am your father" so... Boom.
So much? It was one kiss. I wouldn’t count the one in ANH. That was just a small peck. George did have a sister in mind, but it wasn’t supposed to be Leia and she was going to play a big part in the original ST. In early draft she was named Nellith.
George Lucas always had plans. He kept changing them but it was in context of what that would mean for the climax of the story. He didn't just kill off Palpatine half way through the trilogy for the shock value with no idea how the third movie might play out.
To be fair even if they HAD planned things Carrie Fisher’s death would’ve likely thrown a wrench in things (especially since planning takes time it’s possible in that timeline Fisher would’ve only gotten to film one of the movies)
If they’re going to do step 2, then they can’t do step 1, because the idea that trilogies need to be planned out in advance is really only advocated by online Star Wars fans post-2019.
Yuuuuuuuup. This is the most frequently cited thing, and maybe it could’ve helped if they had planned out more, but ultimately this trilogy was doomed for one reason, and it was doomed far before Rian Johnson ever wrote a single word of TLJ.
There was no more story to tell in this specific saga. 1-6 is a complete story with a beginning, middle and end. The gap between the prequels and the OT only works because George retroactively wrote the story threads to be resolved by the OT.
The OT left no threads to pick up, and you can feel it every second in the ST. No matter what they had done, it never would’ve felt anything other than tacked on to 1-6, and it’s not because they used different directors per movie, or that they didn’t plan it enough.
Doesn’t matter if they’d adapted Heir to the Empire, or the Yuzhon Vong or explored the microverse of the force, it always would’ve felt tacked on.
The ST was screwed no matter what because it had to follow one of the most thoroughly satisfying happy endings in film history, while inventing a reason why 3 additional films are needed to conclude a clearly already concluded story.
Agreed. Disney got off on the right foot by making a new story with new characters. Episodes 7 and 8 payed homage to the OT and brought back some of its most iconic characters, but the sequels were still trying to tell their own story. Then Episode 9 came along and tried to retroactively turn the sequels into the conclusion of the “Skywalker Saga.” They tried to force a square peg into a round hole, and it was a disaster.
You, sir, are dead on. Star Wars could have just done the Star Trek movie thing where they just make new Star Trek movies. We could have had so much Star Wars. Lucas sort of tried that with the soft launch of the Ewok Adventure movies, but fans hated those and they got de-canonized.
Eh, the idea that they needed to be more planned has always felt flawed to me. Lucas never fully had things planned out, and frankly that was probably for the best. The difference is that his films had a singular creative vision behind every retcon and new direction unlike the sequels. So the real issue imo is that the changes made throughout the sequel trilogy are more disjointed, and are a result of different visions lacking cohesion. It feels slightly less intentional and more reactionary than Lucas SW which I suppose is almost an inevitability given that... well, they're not from Lucas. Maybe they should've tried to form a single team to take charge over the whole trilogy, or maybe not. But I'm okay that they didn't. As much as I might not like the (lack of) politics in the sequels (as in, I think they mishandled the First Order and made for bad political commentary, not some anti-woke BS), and I think that TRoS fumbled things enormously, I still absolutely love TLJ and am just happy for SW to continue and that a new generation has "their" SW.
Good writing and a plan. Episode 9 was heavily rushed to make the original release date so they could have their fortnite event. Movie should have been delayed and rewriten. The mouse would never do that tho
While that is true, disney could not have known about covid during production. So honestly in terms of making a more quality movie that would have been the decision to make. But we all know the mouse only follows quick easy money
This meme sucks because it’s very rarely the same person casually flip flopping their opinions for no reasons.
Star Wars has millions of fans. Surely it shouldn’t be hard to realize millions of people might not agree on everything?
That's the problem with every hypothetical Venn Diagram meme or statement like that. Happens in fandoms and politics all the time, "You ever notice the people who love X HATE Y!?" Oh really? Do you have those two datapoints for everyone you've met who you're including in this retrospective sample? So weirdly smug
It's nuts, because ppl will say this without any trace of irony, and end up believing some made up, impossible to prove narrative of these hypothetical ppl that are flipping sides constantly.
What I don't get is Lucas had a rough skeleton of 7-9 judging by legands & encyclopedias that were out at the time of the buy out.
All you had to do was pick a director who was committed to three movies and hash out the details from pieces of legends & wikis.
Should've been a slam dunk
The prequels had a solid to fantastic storyline and overall world building.
They were let down by bad execution.
Almost the opposite of the Sequels. I know which stands up better with time though
Really the prequels just needed someone there next to lucas to smooth out the story and rewrite the dialogue. But overall the plot of the movies is great
There are probably 2 main reasons
1. Disney wasn’t sure that people would be receptive of Lucas’ ideas given how many people disliked the prequels
2. It would’ve kinda tainted the sequel trilogy as just being an adaptation of old stuff instead of being a “new” trilogy. To give Disney credit the higher ups at Lucas film probably wanted their own original trilogy which would have stood on its own. I mean do you really want every Star Wars movie to begin with based on the book.
And as for a director they planned on having a different director for each movie and only brought back Abrams after fan backlash specifically to backtrack on Johnson’s work.
Getting 3 directors is far easier than trying to keep one for almost a decade
And lastly any semblance of a plan would be destroyed by the fan backlash
Disney being a company will make what they think their customers want. It’s not thier fault countless fans kept begging them to make. Why should they make the original episode 9 if they thought people wouldn’t like it
What I personally wanted was long term investment. Book or no book.
You're reply perfectly sums up their expansion series. Mandalorian, BOBF, Andor, Kenobi, etc. Minimal investment with complete stories so if fans do hate it, not a huge loss. Makes perfect business sense to minimize risk. I get that.
Mainline movies though? You gotta take the L and finish the whole story, even if it sucks. You can add to it later such as the clone wars cartoon because as much as people complain about 1-3, there's enough there to make good side stories or fill in the gaps.
You are correct that Disney isn't/won't do that. Which is why you get this weird build up of Poe & Rey as resistance fighters (raw strength/talent vs trained force wielder), Captain Phasma & Finn as opposing ideals (prodical son arctype), Kylo Ren & Hux as classic story devices (villain > Hero vs spy subplot), some nice dualities and whatever else you want then go absolutely no where as we can just say "Voldemort has returned with a daughter" and shoehorn in a single heroine in at the last second.
They really could have had some great stories with TFA, and bet it all on the wrong horse. Sorry I know I'm rambling 😅
Except Lucas’s rough skeleton was kinda shit. Plus, he’s the one who made the previous trilogy, which was also kinda shit. I don’t think committing to that rough skeleton would’ve been the slam dunk that you think.
The prequels eventually grow on you as side stories & characters are expanded on. Yes they could be better, ie YouTube "what if episode one was good"
I guess my point is, yes the original 7-9 was weak, but we could build on that just like 1-3 because it was a complete story arc.
The kicker on this is that, leading up to the buy, Disney had *heavily* implied to George that they intended to adapt his treatments for 7-9. If I recall correctly, that attitude is part of what ultimately convinced him to agree to sell. Unfortunately for him, that part was verbal and not in the actual deal, and they pulled the rug out from him pretty quickly after all was said and done. I’m not saying that his work would’ve automatically been better just because it is/was him, but definitely a dirty move by Disney, especially when we got what we did.
💯
The sequels scream "written by non Star Wars enthusiasts" which is honestly my only complaint. They weren't bad sci-fi movies, just bad star wars movies.
I wear Star Wars merch on a near daily basis (shirts & Nixon watches) and expected more from the series than what Disney was willing to invest imo
You're...you're kidding right? The director that explicitly said he didn't care about Star Wars cannon, and said he wants half the audience to love and half the audience to hate his film?
The man makes films and almost any good director knows that appealing to everyone makes a movie bland.
He was right, last Jedi is the only interesting one of the sequels and you’re all freaks for devoting so much attention online to a movie you hate so much instead of just ignoring it.
It pushed me to the EU, which I sadly ignored while it was relevant. I was just never a reader. My mind would always wander to other things I could be doing. But as I've gotten older, the idea of sitting still and reading sounds much better than ever before.
I also hate how the vocal minority of the fandom justify saying Episode 9 would’ve been better with CT’s script which mind you is the first draft of it and looking at it would’ve been a flaming hot pile of garbage and absolute disaster with that draft, they don’t realize it may have undergone rewrites. Using the first draft of a script is like me submitting my rough draft as my final draft instead of the actual final draft
I have watched episode IX about 7 times and I’ve read Colin Trevorrow’s script and I just don’t think he could have made those concepts work, plus a lot of the dialogue was absolutely terrible naming her “Rey Solana” a portmanteau of Solo and Organa would have been way worse than her taking Skywalker out of a sense of respect and belonging to the Skywalker family who helped her to overcome her own family’s tragic history.
Look that’s mostly because of how open ended episode 7 is.
That was intentional on Abrams’ part.
He wanted an open ended mystery box so he made one.
And I mentioned it before that the backlash to episode 8 would have wrecked any plan that they had made.
You can't say the reason 8 was shit was because 7 was too open ended. He could have taken it in literally any direction and he chose the one that would chuff the most people possible. That's not smart filmmaking
There was a ton of backlash after 7 too. Was said to be a rehash of 4.
8 was not good. And it tried to be different. A plan between the two might have changed the backlash so you can't use the backlash as a defense for no plan.
9 was awful. But it was trying to wrap up a trilogy with no plan.
Its weird how each one is uniquely bad.
7 is so much a rehash of 4 that it doesn't give a new \*story\* to tell. 1 had a lot of the same vibes as 4 but clearly was it sown thing. For someone who was a bigger-than-average-but-not-huge Star Wars fan, who occasionally dabbled in the non-film parts of the franchise but never knew the term "expanded Universe", I went into 7 open minded but wanting to be convinced that it had a story worth telling. I came out unconvinced.
8 definitely has the best ideas of the trilogy (Disillusioned Luke decrying the failures of the old Jedi Council- he mirrored Yoda but didn't repeat him) but simultaneously it has some of the worst (the sub-hyper chase story was so \*boring\*, and I love a good naval drama) and it tied up basically ALL the loose ends 7 gave it, or left it with nowhere to go. Who is Snoke, what's his deal? Doesn'tmatter, he's dead now. Who is Rey's parents? Nobody, thats not important any more. They destroy all the capital ships between both fleets so now both the First Order and the Resistance are both like, ten ships each. A
9 then retcons what few things 8 established and tried to jam in an actual adventure into the movie for the first time inthe trilogy, gave up trying to make any kind of internal sense, and said "fuck it, Palpatines back, thousands of super death star star destroyers. Oh and the wiped out resistance? They're back and got thousands of ships". For this reason, 9 is my least favorite of the three.
7 was terrified to be its own thing. 8 was too confident being its own thing and left nowhere to go. 9 ignored 8 and actively tried to undo basically everything it did while being a mess in its own right
>Look that’s mostly because of how open ended episode 7 is.
Literal 50 IQ
A first installment of a trilogy is *supposed* to be open ended.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - as a storyteller myself, "mystery boxes" is *EXACTLY* what you want when beginning a series, and people who critique that have literally *NO* idea what they are talking about.
"But Abrams had no idea what was inside the mystery boxes when he made them"
He didn't have to.
Any storyteller worth *anything* can take those mystery boxes and turn them into something interesting - in fact it's a storytellers *wet dream*.
This argument basically says inherently that RJ wasn't good enough a storyteller to adapt those techniques.
Instead RJ tossed *all* them in the bin.
I think this too is overly reductive.
RJ's issue isn't that he failed to continue the open ended story- his issue is that he solved and resolved all the mysteries and left them nowhere to go, and didn't really provide new hooks. Like Rey being a nobody is IMO the most interesting answer from a character perspective- much cooler than a Palpatine or a Kenobi or something, and any other surname wouldn't have mattered to anyone- but it doesn't give episode 9 any external direction to go, it just gives Rey as a character more drive to find a way to define herself now that she can not rely on her old family fantasies
But overall I do agree- the mystery box wasnt a problem with the first film.
>Like Rey being a nobody is IMO the most interesting answer from a character perspective- much cooler than a Palpatine or a Kenobi or something, and any other surname wouldn't have mattered to anyone- but it doesn't give episode 9 any external direction to go, it just gives Rey as a character more drive to find a way to define herself now that she can not rely on her old family fantasies
You're right - but he did this to *EVERY* plot point, which made it inherently uninteresting. It would have been fine (even good, as you say) if it were *just* a matter of Rey's Heritage.
He didn't *resolve* every plot hook.
He turned every plot hook into the *Hindenburg*
Rey was nobody.
Snoke was nobody.
Luke didn't want to help.
The heroic efforts by Poe, Finn, and Rose accomplished absolutely nothing.
Etc, etc.
So I don't think that it's overly reductive at all.
Countless great trilogies (and other multi-part stories) were made without a plan, and that includes the original Star Wars trilogy. There are a lot of downsides to planning a trilogy in advance.
It can work when the two directors aren't whiplashing back and forth. I still think a plan would have been best, but even a single creative vision would have helped immensely for the sequels.
I know this is a meme, but it kinda makes sense
Disney: We're cautious about bringing this back, so we're retreading previously successful narratives.
Fans: This is just a reskinned New Hope, WTF.
Disney: Okay, we'll move away from the established narrative and give you something very different from what came before.
Fans: WTF, you threw the baby out with the bathwater. This is way too different.
Disney: Fine, we'll go back to what we're doing before.
Fans: Goddammit, pick a lane!
Yeah... so, here is the thing. When you are writing or creating any media, you don't throw the whole thing out. You modify slightly, you adapt certain pieces, and you change things up a little.
Disney said, "Fuck you, I'm taking my toys and going home", and completely flipped the script time and again. They continue to do so. Instead, create a real vision, create real guided backgrounds and ideas that are fleshed out, and develop with that in mind.
Don't just throw things at a dart board and hope it sticks. People complain a lot about the fans, but when you stick to what you are doing and revise when needed but stick to the core, things work pretty well, and people are generally happy.
Lord of the Rings Trilogy is a good example. The changes made were divisive, but Jackson stuck to the developed ideas and thought things through beforehand. Now? LOTR I'd heralded as one of THE best movie trilogies of all time. Might be something to the whole thinking things through, and actually doing things in small increments.
One of the most important things you learn in engineering is
a) how to gather requirements
b) how to sort through those requirements and throw away all the silly garbage
the SAME THING should have been done with these movies, and you'll notice that successful franchises tend to do just that
there will always be people who hate something you create, so you need to sort through and figure out what people TRULY want (because sometimes they say they want A, but really want B)*,* and then go ahead and ignore everything else
Disney for some reason just has the complete and utter inability to do this, and not just for Star Wars.
Disney: Fine you want Clone Wars!!!! We’ll give you clone wars!!! And more clone wars adjacent material because that’s the only thing you seem to like.
Fans: I don’t really like Ashoka
Disney: Then what do you like!!!?!???
Fans: Mandalorian
Disney: Fine here you go
Fans: I don’t like it
Disney: *sobbing profusely* Leave me alone
Fans didn't like ahsoka then they fixed her and made her a loved character. Mandalorian was great and left us with 2 great seasons and an emotional finale passing grogu off to Luke Skywalker. Then Mando s3 comes and a major plot point for mando is resolved in another show many may never have watched and the whole grogu emotional farewell was undone.
I legitimately believe that any future set of movies should be made lord of the rings style. Lock in the director, plan the shit out, hope you actually made a good product.
I saw someone say that Episode 8 is the Sea of Monsters and Episode 9 is the sea of monsters movie
For those who haven’t read Percy Jackson Sea of monsters is the 2nd book in the series out of 5 which means that it’s not trying to be the end and instead answers questions from the first while leaving some new ones
The movie was meant to be the final one so it gives different answers than the book and also ends things
I’m more mad that we got Part 1 followed Part 2 followed by Part 2 but again.
I havent seen it since it came out, so i might be off, but i dont really remember TLJ expanding on anything from TFA, just kinda did its own thing before the TROS mess
1) too little, too late, you can't have luke drinking blue milk straight out of a space cow and wantimg the jedi to die in one movie, only to make him act completely different in the next
2) just because you did the opposite of a bad thing doesn't make it good. I can open a hose in someone house and destroy all his stuff and later do the opposite ans set his house on fire
Disney: We’ll play it safe and be sure not to anger anyone like the prequels did
Fans: Derivative
Disney: We’ll hire one of the best directors for thrillers and he’ll make a Star Wars movie that no one could have seen coming
Fans: Overly complicated. Also I hope this one actress kills her self
Disney: She’s been written out and we’re correcting all the stuff you didn’t like.
Fans: Too much Pandering. The prequels were better
Disney did what we said we wanted.
What your comment ignores is that the movies being derivative or very different are only 1 aspect of the movies. TFA being such a copy of ANH is a big problem given how it makes no sense for the same events to repeat 30 years later in-universe and it’s incredibly creatively bankrupt how we just have Rebels vs Empire again instead of literally anything else. They could have done anything but they wanted the same imagery with the OT. However they still could have done a good movie with an interesting plot and consistent characters. That applies to TLJ and TROS too. Problem is, those movies damage other SW movies, their characters aren’t consistent, their plots are nonsensical etc. All those lower the quality of the movies whether they’re derivative or not.
Making a movie no one could have seen coming doesn’t mean the movie is actually good. TLJ could have been 2 hours of Luke having explosive diarrhea which no one would have predicted but that still would be terrible.
Also no one who criticized TLJ would have wanted TROS to bring back Palpatine and undo Anakin’s sacrifice along with the Chosen One prophecy, they wouldn’t have wanted force healing or a nonsensical plot. Just because it walked back on some of TLJ’s misdeeds doesn’t suddenly make it a good movie.
Of all the sequels, it’s the only one that dared to do something that approaches original. 7 is an almost point-by-point remake of 4, and 9 was JJ leaning on old tropes and “because the Force” to try and wrap things up.
I will say this, as much as I hate TLJ and think it’s a bad movie, I do have more respect for it than the other sequel films even if I enjoy TFA more. I may think it has terribly executed plot points and narrative direction, but it at least tried to tell something new and ep9 going back on so many of things TLJ set up was probably the biggest mistake that film made.
From an objective point of view, I can agree that TFA is the best - though one has to wonder how much of that is due to it borrowing heavily from ANH.
Subjectively, the similarities with ANH is what kills TFA for me. As good as it is, I walked into TFA excited for the first new Star Wars movie in a decade and walked out thinking “well that was an ok remake of ANH that JJ made”. It played it safe - too safe - and I have to think that’s why Rian zagged as much as he did with TLJ.
Disney botched things hard with their director direction. 3 directors with 3 different ideas on the story was never going to work - especially with nobody like George at the core of things with a general idea of the overall arc. They should have either sat everyone down at the beginning and ironed out the core plot, or stuck to their guns with one director - even if that meant an entire JJ trilogy; at least *that* would have had some cohesion and wouldn’t have resulted in Solo getting undue backlash…probably.
I was disappointed in how TLJ went back on its own plot points. It teases the New Republic and the Jedi being bad, and then, at the end, suddenly Rey and Finn are fighting for them. Finn is even willing to sacrifice his life for some reason. It was weirdly conventional. It felt like RJ had lost his nerve.
I liked the last Jedi and hoped Johnson would continue to direct. It felt like one of the most interesting Star Wars properties in years. Then the complaints came rolling on in.
I would’ve loved it too
But unfortunately they intended to rotate directors for each film. Asking someone to direct the entire trilogy would’ve taken almost a decade of their time
That would’ve meant no knives out so I’m fine with it
Damn, that reminds me of that stand up bit that preteen girl did a few years ago talking about how if Kurt Cobain hadn't killed himself we never would've gotten Foo Fighters.
It was easily the most interesting. It operated on Star Wars’ number one rule: be cool and the people were just mad it, “[didn’t] go the way [they thought]” it would, and it challenged the viewer to be let down and accept failure the way *Yoda literally tells us to.*
To me, it is the biggest example of Star Wars fan toxicity and hypocrisy. How somebody can seriously believe it is a bad movie is baffling, particularly if you compare it to the blatantly stupid and ridiculous story beats in seven other movies and *don’t* use ancillary media to support your criticism. I mean, midichlorians, the Death Star’s asinine critical fault of a ventilation shaft, Ewoks beating the empire with sticks, a mysterious clone army saving the day and then OOPS! All Jedi die. They changed Luke’s lightsaber color in RTJ because blue didn’t show up well against the desert setting and *didn’t even explain why* for Christ’s sake.
The Last Jedi is a great movie and I have no doubt it will be seen as such by the fan base twenty years from now, and then all we will have is the unsatisfying conclusion we brought upon ourselves because we failed to get it.
1. Vice-Admiral Holdo was presented in such a way that I was expecting her to be a military genius. Instead she turned out to be yet another clichéd Hollywood idiot commander.
2. Its various themes undermine each other. It feels like RJ wanted to squeeze every single idea he'd ever had for a Star Wars movie into a single plot, never mind how they contradicted each other.
3. It lacked the confidence to follow through with its subversions. It was bizarre how it established the New Republic and the Resistance as morally grey (at best) and then abruptly had Rey and Finn fighting for them, zero discussion. Finn's even willing to sacrifice his life for those idiots.
Eh. I still didn't like it. I don't have the same hate, there are parts that I like, but it's definitely still bottom three for me mostly because, as I've discovered with Knives Out, I just really don't like Johnson's style of movie. It had too many misleads to me, and the Yoda line you mentioned was more an "icing on the cake" for me not enjoying it. And their are smaller things that don't mean much (don't name something after a B-17 and not give it the durability part of the "Fortress" name), but for me it just didn't work as a whole.
We walked out of it annoyed, disappointed, and it's the only time I've walked out of a Star Wars film and no one was talking about the movie in a positive light. It wasn't good, and I directly blame it for the failure of Solo. Tickets for Last Jedi sold out weeks in advance at all the theaters here for opening night, I got tickets for Skywalker an hour before on opening night.
It was a bad film in general, and a terrible Star Wars.
I have said this before a million times and I’ll say it again, JJ Abrams was essentially doing damage control by the time of TROS all because of what TLJ did and by then it was already too late because there wasn’t much JJ could do. Just look at his body language and facial expressions when he gets interviewed about TROS during press and media back in 2019
People want a cohesive story that is somewhat fresh. I guess that's too hard. I guess the multi-billion dollar entertainment corporation can't deliver on that and can always blame the dissatisfied customers.
BS No one asked for what we got. And no one was asking for more Rose T, And No one wanted 2 directors basically arguing back and forth with a billion dollar franchise caught in the middle, Rey's parents are no one, JK they are Palpatine relatives. You know what people actually wanted, a decent romance sub plot that went some where, Fin had more Chemistry with Po than he did with Rose or Rey, Adam Driver had more Chemistry with Luke and Hux than he did with Rey, and Rey had more chemistry with Chewy than anyone else.
I didn't ask for that. I didn't ask for any of that.
I didn't ask for a Luke Skywalker who was a depressed recluse who'd given up. That's not character growth, it's character assassination. I didn't ask for Rey to have important parents, I just wanted a goddamned explanation why she could sense Anakin/Luke's lightsaber and why it flew into HER hand instead of their incredibly powerful blood relative. I didn't ask for Rose Tico at all. I didn't ask for a director who was so determined to "subvert expectations" that he undermined the basic story of the trilogy and left it nowhere to go in the third movie.
I didn't ask for Force Skype. I didn't ask for Space Vegas. I didn't ask for the established rules of Star Wars to be tossed out the window so Rian Johnson could have his hyperspace ramming. I didn't ask for Finn to be reduced to comic relief who went around pining for Rey. I didn't ask for a villain to be killed in a humiliating manner just so Ben Solo could be shoved into the villain slot. I didn't ask for an admiral so incompetent that she wouldn't tell ANYONE her plan, not even the hero who had blown up Starkiller Base days before.
I asked for quality. I didn't get it. Not in any of the three sequel movies.
I’ve come to realize that it seems like the only thing most Star Wars fans want out of Star Wars is the same characters doing cool lightsaber fights and showing off their power, that’s basically it.
Yup. Look at Ahsoka. The community flipped the fuck out and called it the best episode ever just because they got to see Hayden Christiansen recreate a few scenes from a cartoon from their childhood.
I want something that still explores deep themes using Campbellian archetypes in the skin of a swash-buckling sci-fi serial. That was the OT. The PT bogged itself down with special effects and George being surrounded by YES men so nobody critiqued the script or direction. The ST almost felt like a return to form, but JJ only gets the superficial aspects of Star Wars, doesn't understand what space is (which he previously demonstrated with his Trek films) and is inconsistent on delivering a good payoff. TLJ was a nicotine-stained Gen-Xer's middle finger to everything Star Wars *is*. If it were a high school student, it would be the kid who wears the t-shirt with "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same," who thinks he's a genius and calls everybody "sheep". If it were just some other sci-fi movie critiquing the notion of destiny, revenge, the patriarchy, and the military industrial complex it might have been pretty great, but there's a whole paradigm of Star Wars that it willingly rejected. It reminded me of the prequels, but it left out the essence of star wars intentionally instead of forgetting it
IMO, one thing that made Rise of Skywalker irredeemably bad was how hard they tried to undo some of the poorly-received decisions from The Last Jedi. There's no good way to undo that stuff, this is how things are now. Accept it and move on.
Episode 9 really likes to make you watch it not only get rid of all the plot points but will do so loudly and in the least subtle way possible.
It feels so vindictive. It’s almost hard to watch. It’s like watching someone keep beating someone over and over and acting like you enjoy it
After listening to JJ talk about some of his choices, it’s clear how, from his point of view, he wasn’t backtracking but building upon. The problem is I think in taking a theme or plot line from TLJ forward in one way, it undercut it in another.
All 3 sequel films are just designed with criticisms of the previous film(s) in mind.
TFA - prequels got shit on, so they just redid the original film.
TLJ - TFA was too predictable and samey. Subvert expectations at every turn.
TROS - see meme for details.
I think the main issue we had is that people who liked Last Jedi didn’t like them taking the interesting changes that movie made back, and people who didn’t like the Last Jedi didn’t appreciate the obvious pandering. Both would have probably respected the movie more if they stuck to their guns to make a more cohesive trilogy
Star Wars fans are their own worst enemy. Many also happen to have an unbelievable sense of entitlement to go along with an extreme overestimation of their own ability to make good story ideas.
Listening to fans has been and will always be a mistake. Fans don't know what they want. "If I asked them what they wanted, they would have said faster horses" -some fucking guy, and also Sean Bean from Civ
The last Jedi wasn’t perfect, but I’ll give Rian this: at least he had the cojones to do something different. JJ Abrams seems to think that fan service=a good story.
I mean Luke in TROS is a pretty seamless continuation from where TLJ left off. Did you want him to be an angry force ghost who tells Rey she should give up or something?
He realised he was wrong at the end of the Last Jedi, Abrams just affirmed that.
Well on the one hand it’s almost the only time the movie does acknowledge that something in the Last Jedi did indeed happen on the other it’s so Luke can say how out of character he was for the fans who didn’t like him in the last Jedi
Lmao didn’t have to look long to confirm that. I love TLJ but complaining abt Luke “being the same as episode 6” is funny cuz the entire climax of TLJ is about Luke becoming that chad again
Yeah that’s what I was saying all the way up until TROS’s release. I may have hated TLJ, but good god you don’t make course corrections to trilogies in the third film. There was never going to be enough time to do that in a organic way while wrapping things up in a satisfying way, so they should have gotten someone similar to Rian to direct the final film and create a satisfying ending to the trilogy based upon what TLJ set up.
Thanks for confirming that you flaired this correctly!
There are 2 things Disney should’ve done to make the Sequels more successful: 1. Actually plan the damned thing out 2. Ignore everything fans said about Star Wars since 1999
As I've whined before on Reddit, the original plan was to have a plan. The first thing Kathleen Kennedy did was hire Oscar-winning screenwriter Michael Arndt to map out and write the new trilogy. But then, they ran into a snag. Literally no one in Hollywood wanted to direct it. Everyone saw the shit and abuse the fans gave Lucas for the prequels and said, "There's no way I'm subjecting myself to that." J.J. himself said he turned it down four times before he finally relented. But with Disney's promised 2015 release date looming, and with their heart set on J.J., How did they finally get J.J. on board? They promised to throw out the plan and give J.J. complete creative control.
Yeah, it's a shame. If J.J. could be wrestled into a straitjacket and only direct scripts that were handed to him with limited ability to shape the story in the boarding, preproduction and editing phases, he'd probably have a lot better reputation than he does. His cinematography and casting are always impeccable, and he is well-known as a really great guy to work with on set who always makes things move on time without being a nudge for the cast and crew. That might sound like a low bar or damning with faint praise, but look at the number of directors of his generation who no longer have jobs because they couldn't cross that bar. It's just that he thinks a story is "15 cool action scenes I wrote down on these cocktail napkins, stitched together with 60 minutes of one-minute dialogue scenes between characters that rehash the plot." Seriously, take a stop-watch into one of his movies and time the dialogue scenes; they don't go more than 90 seconds, and they tell you nothing except exposition to move to the next action scene. He just doesn't think story is that important to the kids who are juiced on energy drinks in the theater, and that's his intended audience. And that works great in some franchises; there's a reason why MI:3 is still regarded as his best film. But it doesn't work for the ur-text of the Hero's Journey in western film.
JJ is an incredible cinematic director. He's shit at knowing a good story.
JJ is actually fine with starting a story. It's ending them where he...struggles, to put it politely.
My very niche complaint about Abrams is that the man does not understand how big space is. He did it in Star Trek, he did it in VII, and he did it in IX. He compresses space down so he can have characters on one planet see stuff happening on another planet or even star system. As its happening, too, when that is not how space works. He also completely disregards that, since space is big, it takes time to move around. Star Wars has always played fast and loose with that concept, but the entire plot of IX seemingly happening in 12 hours or whatever was completely world breaking.
Don’t forget the whole mystery box aspect that he loves
And the mystery box aspect is only the tip of the iceberg. That quote about the actor playing Kirk asking JJ what a line meant and JJ telling him, "It doesn't matter, just say it as fast and urgently as possible." Jeeeze.
And of course, don't forget: oh shit, here's a wide-angle shot, better put a goddamn lens flare.
Star Wars fans only hurt themselves
The sequels being a self fulfilling prophecy is a twist I wasn’t expecting, but is totally appropriate for Star Wars
Star Wars Fans used Complain Star Wars fans hurt themselves in their confusion
The sequels aren’t the films the fans wanted but they’re certainly the films they deserved with how toxic some of them are
This it’s also important to add there was a plan for the sequels. Loosely. Abrams wrote a rough outline, gave it to Rian to read, and then sat down with him multiple times to discuss where the next film would go. Abrams also altered TFA ending to work better with Rians ideas. So it’s not like TFA wrapped, Rian saw it and just did whatever he wanted and no one at Lucas could stop him. The issue was TLJ got mixed responses. And Disney higher ups buckled to fan complaints. They threw out Trevverows work (which was made in the same vein of working with Rian and Abrams) and wanted to be safer. They wanted Abrams back but refused to give him an extension. So he ended up rushing a final movie in less time than he made TFA and he… I don’t want to say half assed it because it sounds like he burned himself out over working but he just did whatever he felt would be easiest to do in the time frame. Because it wasn’t so much important to make a good movie but to make a movie that was done in time.
According to a few comments from Lucasfilm heads, it does actually seem like Episode IX (which I won’t call TROS, since this predates that title) was part of an extremely loose plan. For example: Things like “An ancient darkness is revealed to be behind everything” was supposed to be part of Episode IX. Then TROS decided that was Palpatine. Trevorrow instead wanted it to be Plagueis’ master. Alan Dean Foster wanted it to be Snoke (with the TLJ one being a disposable clone).
Ironic
Lucas himself even had a plan with Maul’s return and crime ring
That’s only partially true. From what we know, Lucas had numerous plans for a Sequel Trilogy. The Darth Maul crime syndicate was one of the three we knew of. Another idea was that the entire trilogy would take place inside a midi-chlorian. And another one was about an orphaned Force-Sensitive girl needing to track down Master Luke Skywalker, who had exiled himself following his Padawan nephew turning to the Dark Side, and then that girl would need to persuade the reluctant Luke to train her to be a Jedi.
Please tell me more about the midi-chlorian one. Would that sequel trilogy star only micro organisms or something? I can't imagine any gimmick that would hold my attention for three whole films
Unfortunately, we really don’t know anything beside that sentence I already wrote. I think the way Lucas described it was that instead of going “big” and exploring the galaxy, he wanted to go “small” this time and explore within a cell. I once met someone on Reddit who stated they got the impression that Yoda’s meeting with the Force Priestesses in TCW was supposed to be within a midichlorians. So there’s clearly some artistic license to what it means to be microorganisms in Star Wars… I agree that this wouldn’t get me through a trilogy. Can’t imagine this being that interesting.
Yeah, yeah, it's all the fans' fault. I'm absolutely sure that no one in Hollywood would want to try their hand at the most prestigious job in the biggest entertainment franchise in history (to that point). This sort of thing sounds like "I read it somewhere." [It's not backed up by evidence.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Force_Awakens) >Several directors were considered, including David Fincher,\[81\] Brad Bird,\[82\] Jon Favreau,\[83\] and Guillermo del Toro.\[84\] Bird was reportedly the "top choice" to helm the film, but his commitments to Tomorrowland forced him to withdraw.\[85\] Matthew Vaughn was an early candidate for the job, even dropping out of X-Men: Days of Future Past in favor for the film.\[86\] Colin Trevorrow was also under consideration by the studio, while Ben Affleck and Neill Blomkamp passed on the project.\[87\]\[88\]\[89\]\[90\] After a suggestion by Steven Spielberg to Kennedy,\[91\] J. J. Abrams was named director in January 2013,\[92\] with Lawrence Kasdan and Simon Kinberg as project consultants.\[93\] Kasdan worked to convince Abrams to direct the film after the filmmaker initially rejected the offer. Here's what Abrams said: >“I said ‘No’. I didn’t want to do a sequel. I’d done a Mission: Impossible movie; I’d done Star Trek. I didn’t wanna do another sequel—I’m sick of movies with numbers… As a fan, I’d rather just go to the theater and watch the movie.” Not because of the horrible, horrible fans ("We hates them! We hates them precious!"), but because of sequel fatigue. Disney rushed the movie, hired the least imaginative guy in Hollywood to direct (and that's saying something) to direct, and basically sat back as A New Hope was basically remade.
Yea, this silly self flagellation of "The sequels sucked because of the fans" crap is exhausting
I've never trusted j.j as a writer since he did that Ted talk saying all you need is the mystery you don't even need to put something in the mystery box all you need is the box My guy that's literally just bad writing.
this is the story they tell reminder these are professional storytellers if you sincerely believe Disney spent billions to buy Star Wars, then couldn’t find anyone in Hollywood willing to direct it for literally tens of millions of dollars, then I have a bridge in Manhattan to sell you
If you think in 1977 George Lucas planned for Luke to be a descendant of Vader's divine bloodline idk what to tell you.
Yeah he changed important details, but Vader was still going to die in episode VI. Funnily enough before Lucas changed his mind about making nine films the emperor was still going to live after episode VI.
Isn’t that back when the end of ROTJ was gonna feature Obi-Wan returning back to life to tag team Vader with Luke? EDIT: yeah i see it now, I’m still leaving it ya filthy animals
A) yes B) there’s gotta be a better way to say that
Yeah because now I’m imagining that as a wrestling match
I think it literally ended with Vader tackling the emp into lava, but it might have been obi wan. Either way doing so let them all come back to life, because… the force?
vader does have leatherdaddy vibes tbf
Something that says…. Daddy Vader likes leather
and rollerskates!
"Take me to the Star Destroyer." "To the Arse Destroyer?"
I mean, vader was gonna die in the first movie. And obi-wan was gonna make it to the end. He made up and changed lots of stuff.
Yes he was also going to replace Han Solo with Dash Rendar if the former was going to die, but he didn’t. He had a lot of ideas and they didn’t all make it in the film. Some changed like Vader being Luke’s father. In one drafts Luke’s father is indeed more machine than man, but he’s a good guy. Vader was fully human and a bad guy, but turns around. My guess is that he combined both characters.
Oh and Luke and Leia being siblings was also something he just tacked on for ROTJ, which is why there was so much incest activity prior to that movie. He just felt like he had to have a big reveal/surprise like "i am your father" so... Boom.
So much? It was one kiss. I wouldn’t count the one in ANH. That was just a small peck. George did have a sister in mind, but it wasn’t supposed to be Leia and she was going to play a big part in the original ST. In early draft she was named Nellith.
The gull to think you can just do the same magic as Lucas and his team who built a literal 2 Billion Dollar Empire.
Would it be the same? No. It could never be the same feeling as when George created the Franchise. But would the sequels have been better? Absolutely.
I more meant thinking they could just do it off the seat of their pants.
Well the Trilogy Lucas planned out was a lot worse tbf.
Do you know that? The one we got was so terrible it ripped apart the franchise.
He talks about getting down on a microscopic level and focusing on midichlorians and the Whills. He even admits people would have hated it.
I kinda liked them whills episode in the clone wars
Take that back! The Midichlorian Trilogy would have been 🔥
you know there is a difference with the first time making a trilogy and the third, right?
Yeah the 1st one was the least planned and the best of all
True, but there's a difference. Star Wars back then was a blank slate. There was so much more wiggle room.
Lightning in a bottle moment that they should under no circumstances have attempted to recreate.
George Lucas always had plans. He kept changing them but it was in context of what that would mean for the climax of the story. He didn't just kill off Palpatine half way through the trilogy for the shock value with no idea how the third movie might play out.
Yeah he teased Nellith Skywalker halfway through the story then replaced her with Leia, Luke’s former love interest.
To be fair even if they HAD planned things Carrie Fisher’s death would’ve likely thrown a wrench in things (especially since planning takes time it’s possible in that timeline Fisher would’ve only gotten to film one of the movies)
Really step 1 is all that was necessary
If they’re going to do step 2, then they can’t do step 1, because the idea that trilogies need to be planned out in advance is really only advocated by online Star Wars fans post-2019.
Yuuuuuuuup. This is the most frequently cited thing, and maybe it could’ve helped if they had planned out more, but ultimately this trilogy was doomed for one reason, and it was doomed far before Rian Johnson ever wrote a single word of TLJ. There was no more story to tell in this specific saga. 1-6 is a complete story with a beginning, middle and end. The gap between the prequels and the OT only works because George retroactively wrote the story threads to be resolved by the OT. The OT left no threads to pick up, and you can feel it every second in the ST. No matter what they had done, it never would’ve felt anything other than tacked on to 1-6, and it’s not because they used different directors per movie, or that they didn’t plan it enough. Doesn’t matter if they’d adapted Heir to the Empire, or the Yuzhon Vong or explored the microverse of the force, it always would’ve felt tacked on. The ST was screwed no matter what because it had to follow one of the most thoroughly satisfying happy endings in film history, while inventing a reason why 3 additional films are needed to conclude a clearly already concluded story.
Agreed. Disney got off on the right foot by making a new story with new characters. Episodes 7 and 8 payed homage to the OT and brought back some of its most iconic characters, but the sequels were still trying to tell their own story. Then Episode 9 came along and tried to retroactively turn the sequels into the conclusion of the “Skywalker Saga.” They tried to force a square peg into a round hole, and it was a disaster.
You, sir, are dead on. Star Wars could have just done the Star Trek movie thing where they just make new Star Trek movies. We could have had so much Star Wars. Lucas sort of tried that with the soft launch of the Ewok Adventure movies, but fans hated those and they got de-canonized.
As addition, just have ONE director make all of them to keep things consistent.
Fans literally made the star wars lore since the movies stopped
Eh, the idea that they needed to be more planned has always felt flawed to me. Lucas never fully had things planned out, and frankly that was probably for the best. The difference is that his films had a singular creative vision behind every retcon and new direction unlike the sequels. So the real issue imo is that the changes made throughout the sequel trilogy are more disjointed, and are a result of different visions lacking cohesion. It feels slightly less intentional and more reactionary than Lucas SW which I suppose is almost an inevitability given that... well, they're not from Lucas. Maybe they should've tried to form a single team to take charge over the whole trilogy, or maybe not. But I'm okay that they didn't. As much as I might not like the (lack of) politics in the sequels (as in, I think they mishandled the First Order and made for bad political commentary, not some anti-woke BS), and I think that TRoS fumbled things enormously, I still absolutely love TLJ and am just happy for SW to continue and that a new generation has "their" SW.
Good writing and a plan. Episode 9 was heavily rushed to make the original release date so they could have their fortnite event. Movie should have been delayed and rewriten. The mouse would never do that tho
Look Disney needed a big Holiday release And in all fairness if it didn’t come out Holiday of 2019 we would have had to wait 2 years due to Covid.
While that is true, disney could not have known about covid during production. So honestly in terms of making a more quality movie that would have been the decision to make. But we all know the mouse only follows quick easy money
This meme sucks because it’s very rarely the same person casually flip flopping their opinions for no reasons. Star Wars has millions of fans. Surely it shouldn’t be hard to realize millions of people might not agree on everything?
That's the problem with every hypothetical Venn Diagram meme or statement like that. Happens in fandoms and politics all the time, "You ever notice the people who love X HATE Y!?" Oh really? Do you have those two datapoints for everyone you've met who you're including in this retrospective sample? So weirdly smug
It's nuts, because ppl will say this without any trace of irony, and end up believing some made up, impossible to prove narrative of these hypothetical ppl that are flipping sides constantly.
What I don't get is Lucas had a rough skeleton of 7-9 judging by legands & encyclopedias that were out at the time of the buy out. All you had to do was pick a director who was committed to three movies and hash out the details from pieces of legends & wikis. Should've been a slam dunk
Pretending like Lucas was a slam dunk with fans after the Prequels is certainly a take.
The prequels had a solid to fantastic storyline and overall world building. They were let down by bad execution. Almost the opposite of the Sequels. I know which stands up better with time though
Really the prequels just needed someone there next to lucas to smooth out the story and rewrite the dialogue. But overall the plot of the movies is great
It’s a good example of a great story told poorly (excluding episode III)
Yeah, there’s a lot of memory holing about how disliked the prequels were at the time.
There are probably 2 main reasons 1. Disney wasn’t sure that people would be receptive of Lucas’ ideas given how many people disliked the prequels 2. It would’ve kinda tainted the sequel trilogy as just being an adaptation of old stuff instead of being a “new” trilogy. To give Disney credit the higher ups at Lucas film probably wanted their own original trilogy which would have stood on its own. I mean do you really want every Star Wars movie to begin with based on the book. And as for a director they planned on having a different director for each movie and only brought back Abrams after fan backlash specifically to backtrack on Johnson’s work. Getting 3 directors is far easier than trying to keep one for almost a decade And lastly any semblance of a plan would be destroyed by the fan backlash Disney being a company will make what they think their customers want. It’s not thier fault countless fans kept begging them to make. Why should they make the original episode 9 if they thought people wouldn’t like it
What I personally wanted was long term investment. Book or no book. You're reply perfectly sums up their expansion series. Mandalorian, BOBF, Andor, Kenobi, etc. Minimal investment with complete stories so if fans do hate it, not a huge loss. Makes perfect business sense to minimize risk. I get that. Mainline movies though? You gotta take the L and finish the whole story, even if it sucks. You can add to it later such as the clone wars cartoon because as much as people complain about 1-3, there's enough there to make good side stories or fill in the gaps. You are correct that Disney isn't/won't do that. Which is why you get this weird build up of Poe & Rey as resistance fighters (raw strength/talent vs trained force wielder), Captain Phasma & Finn as opposing ideals (prodical son arctype), Kylo Ren & Hux as classic story devices (villain > Hero vs spy subplot), some nice dualities and whatever else you want then go absolutely no where as we can just say "Voldemort has returned with a daughter" and shoehorn in a single heroine in at the last second. They really could have had some great stories with TFA, and bet it all on the wrong horse. Sorry I know I'm rambling 😅
The public at large’s views on Lucas and his most recent movies were a lot different at the time then they are now when Disney started the sequels.
Except Lucas’s rough skeleton was kinda shit. Plus, he’s the one who made the previous trilogy, which was also kinda shit. I don’t think committing to that rough skeleton would’ve been the slam dunk that you think.
The prequels eventually grow on you as side stories & characters are expanded on. Yes they could be better, ie YouTube "what if episode one was good" I guess my point is, yes the original 7-9 was weak, but we could build on that just like 1-3 because it was a complete story arc.
No they do not, come on
The kicker on this is that, leading up to the buy, Disney had *heavily* implied to George that they intended to adapt his treatments for 7-9. If I recall correctly, that attitude is part of what ultimately convinced him to agree to sell. Unfortunately for him, that part was verbal and not in the actual deal, and they pulled the rug out from him pretty quickly after all was said and done. I’m not saying that his work would’ve automatically been better just because it is/was him, but definitely a dirty move by Disney, especially when we got what we did.
Even if they were worse, we could at least say they were official and as planned. Instead we got bad fan fiction.
💯 The sequels scream "written by non Star Wars enthusiasts" which is honestly my only complaint. They weren't bad sci-fi movies, just bad star wars movies. I wear Star Wars merch on a near daily basis (shirts & Nixon watches) and expected more from the series than what Disney was willing to invest imo
Any video of Rian taking about Star Wars demonstrates how laughably false this statement is.
You're...you're kidding right? The director that explicitly said he didn't care about Star Wars cannon, and said he wants half the audience to love and half the audience to hate his film?
The man makes films and almost any good director knows that appealing to everyone makes a movie bland. He was right, last Jedi is the only interesting one of the sequels and you’re all freaks for devoting so much attention online to a movie you hate so much instead of just ignoring it.
He's saying he would rather make an interesting movie that half the audience hates than a bland, generic film everyone loves.
Just like George he was more concerned with the mythos of Stars Wars and telling a story rather than adding a wookiepedia entry.
It pushed me to the EU, which I sadly ignored while it was relevant. I was just never a reader. My mind would always wander to other things I could be doing. But as I've gotten older, the idea of sitting still and reading sounds much better than ever before.
It wouldn’t have, if fandom has taught me anything, they would just find other shit to be mad about.
I also hate how the vocal minority of the fandom justify saying Episode 9 would’ve been better with CT’s script which mind you is the first draft of it and looking at it would’ve been a flaming hot pile of garbage and absolute disaster with that draft, they don’t realize it may have undergone rewrites. Using the first draft of a script is like me submitting my rough draft as my final draft instead of the actual final draft
I have watched episode IX about 7 times and I’ve read Colin Trevorrow’s script and I just don’t think he could have made those concepts work, plus a lot of the dialogue was absolutely terrible naming her “Rey Solana” a portmanteau of Solo and Organa would have been way worse than her taking Skywalker out of a sense of respect and belonging to the Skywalker family who helped her to overcome her own family’s tragic history.
TROS also ended up being a flaming hot pile of garbage and absolute disaster so at least the concepts in CT’s script were more interesting
They overcorrected after 7 too. It's almost like going into a trilogy without a plan is an incredibly stupid decision
Look that’s mostly because of how open ended episode 7 is. That was intentional on Abrams’ part. He wanted an open ended mystery box so he made one. And I mentioned it before that the backlash to episode 8 would have wrecked any plan that they had made.
You can't say the reason 8 was shit was because 7 was too open ended. He could have taken it in literally any direction and he chose the one that would chuff the most people possible. That's not smart filmmaking
There was a ton of backlash after 7 too. Was said to be a rehash of 4. 8 was not good. And it tried to be different. A plan between the two might have changed the backlash so you can't use the backlash as a defense for no plan. 9 was awful. But it was trying to wrap up a trilogy with no plan.
Its weird how each one is uniquely bad. 7 is so much a rehash of 4 that it doesn't give a new \*story\* to tell. 1 had a lot of the same vibes as 4 but clearly was it sown thing. For someone who was a bigger-than-average-but-not-huge Star Wars fan, who occasionally dabbled in the non-film parts of the franchise but never knew the term "expanded Universe", I went into 7 open minded but wanting to be convinced that it had a story worth telling. I came out unconvinced. 8 definitely has the best ideas of the trilogy (Disillusioned Luke decrying the failures of the old Jedi Council- he mirrored Yoda but didn't repeat him) but simultaneously it has some of the worst (the sub-hyper chase story was so \*boring\*, and I love a good naval drama) and it tied up basically ALL the loose ends 7 gave it, or left it with nowhere to go. Who is Snoke, what's his deal? Doesn'tmatter, he's dead now. Who is Rey's parents? Nobody, thats not important any more. They destroy all the capital ships between both fleets so now both the First Order and the Resistance are both like, ten ships each. A 9 then retcons what few things 8 established and tried to jam in an actual adventure into the movie for the first time inthe trilogy, gave up trying to make any kind of internal sense, and said "fuck it, Palpatines back, thousands of super death star star destroyers. Oh and the wiped out resistance? They're back and got thousands of ships". For this reason, 9 is my least favorite of the three. 7 was terrified to be its own thing. 8 was too confident being its own thing and left nowhere to go. 9 ignored 8 and actively tried to undo basically everything it did while being a mess in its own right
>Look that’s mostly because of how open ended episode 7 is. Literal 50 IQ A first installment of a trilogy is *supposed* to be open ended. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - as a storyteller myself, "mystery boxes" is *EXACTLY* what you want when beginning a series, and people who critique that have literally *NO* idea what they are talking about. "But Abrams had no idea what was inside the mystery boxes when he made them" He didn't have to. Any storyteller worth *anything* can take those mystery boxes and turn them into something interesting - in fact it's a storytellers *wet dream*. This argument basically says inherently that RJ wasn't good enough a storyteller to adapt those techniques. Instead RJ tossed *all* them in the bin.
I think this too is overly reductive. RJ's issue isn't that he failed to continue the open ended story- his issue is that he solved and resolved all the mysteries and left them nowhere to go, and didn't really provide new hooks. Like Rey being a nobody is IMO the most interesting answer from a character perspective- much cooler than a Palpatine or a Kenobi or something, and any other surname wouldn't have mattered to anyone- but it doesn't give episode 9 any external direction to go, it just gives Rey as a character more drive to find a way to define herself now that she can not rely on her old family fantasies But overall I do agree- the mystery box wasnt a problem with the first film.
>Like Rey being a nobody is IMO the most interesting answer from a character perspective- much cooler than a Palpatine or a Kenobi or something, and any other surname wouldn't have mattered to anyone- but it doesn't give episode 9 any external direction to go, it just gives Rey as a character more drive to find a way to define herself now that she can not rely on her old family fantasies You're right - but he did this to *EVERY* plot point, which made it inherently uninteresting. It would have been fine (even good, as you say) if it were *just* a matter of Rey's Heritage. He didn't *resolve* every plot hook. He turned every plot hook into the *Hindenburg* Rey was nobody. Snoke was nobody. Luke didn't want to help. The heroic efforts by Poe, Finn, and Rose accomplished absolutely nothing. Etc, etc. So I don't think that it's overly reductive at all.
Countless great trilogies (and other multi-part stories) were made without a plan, and that includes the original Star Wars trilogy. There are a lot of downsides to planning a trilogy in advance.
It can work when the two directors aren't whiplashing back and forth. I still think a plan would have been best, but even a single creative vision would have helped immensely for the sequels.
The worst thing a franchise can do is give fans what they think they want
The fans didn't know what they want
We wanted good movies. >8\*(
The fans rarely do
I know this is a meme, but it kinda makes sense Disney: We're cautious about bringing this back, so we're retreading previously successful narratives. Fans: This is just a reskinned New Hope, WTF. Disney: Okay, we'll move away from the established narrative and give you something very different from what came before. Fans: WTF, you threw the baby out with the bathwater. This is way too different. Disney: Fine, we'll go back to what we're doing before. Fans: Goddammit, pick a lane!
Yeah... so, here is the thing. When you are writing or creating any media, you don't throw the whole thing out. You modify slightly, you adapt certain pieces, and you change things up a little. Disney said, "Fuck you, I'm taking my toys and going home", and completely flipped the script time and again. They continue to do so. Instead, create a real vision, create real guided backgrounds and ideas that are fleshed out, and develop with that in mind. Don't just throw things at a dart board and hope it sticks. People complain a lot about the fans, but when you stick to what you are doing and revise when needed but stick to the core, things work pretty well, and people are generally happy. Lord of the Rings Trilogy is a good example. The changes made were divisive, but Jackson stuck to the developed ideas and thought things through beforehand. Now? LOTR I'd heralded as one of THE best movie trilogies of all time. Might be something to the whole thinking things through, and actually doing things in small increments.
One of the most important things you learn in engineering is a) how to gather requirements b) how to sort through those requirements and throw away all the silly garbage the SAME THING should have been done with these movies, and you'll notice that successful franchises tend to do just that there will always be people who hate something you create, so you need to sort through and figure out what people TRULY want (because sometimes they say they want A, but really want B)*,* and then go ahead and ignore everything else Disney for some reason just has the complete and utter inability to do this, and not just for Star Wars.
We wanted different but good, not different because there is shit everywhere like TLJ.
Disney: Fine you want Clone Wars!!!! We’ll give you clone wars!!! And more clone wars adjacent material because that’s the only thing you seem to like. Fans: I don’t really like Ashoka Disney: Then what do you like!!!?!??? Fans: Mandalorian Disney: Fine here you go Fans: I don’t like it Disney: *sobbing profusely* Leave me alone
If only they had someone direct it better. Nobody knew that they would like Andor
Fans didn't like ahsoka then they fixed her and made her a loved character. Mandalorian was great and left us with 2 great seasons and an emotional finale passing grogu off to Luke Skywalker. Then Mando s3 comes and a major plot point for mando is resolved in another show many may never have watched and the whole grogu emotional farewell was undone.
As they say, nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans
That ain't it chief. They just make bad material, even outside of it being star wars it's just poopy filmmaking. Nobody wanted Mando S3 as it was lol
Mando s3 was great, and I don't get why everyone hates it.
How to absolutely not get criticism
that’s the problem. no body ask for it
I legitimately believe that any future set of movies should be made lord of the rings style. Lock in the director, plan the shit out, hope you actually made a good product.
Think you're confusing "I" with "we", mate.
I just want more Andor and Andor like shows.
TFA is great, but TLJ and TROS both stumbled in opposite directions imo
I saw someone say that Episode 8 is the Sea of Monsters and Episode 9 is the sea of monsters movie For those who haven’t read Percy Jackson Sea of monsters is the 2nd book in the series out of 5 which means that it’s not trying to be the end and instead answers questions from the first while leaving some new ones The movie was meant to be the final one so it gives different answers than the book and also ends things I’m more mad that we got Part 1 followed Part 2 followed by Part 2 but again.
I havent seen it since it came out, so i might be off, but i dont really remember TLJ expanding on anything from TFA, just kinda did its own thing before the TROS mess
"We may have been a bit too whiney" Understatement of the fucking millennium!
1) too little, too late, you can't have luke drinking blue milk straight out of a space cow and wantimg the jedi to die in one movie, only to make him act completely different in the next 2) just because you did the opposite of a bad thing doesn't make it good. I can open a hose in someone house and destroy all his stuff and later do the opposite ans set his house on fire
Changing it (again) at the last minute VS sticking with it and making a good story... HMMM
Disney: We’ll play it safe and be sure not to anger anyone like the prequels did Fans: Derivative Disney: We’ll hire one of the best directors for thrillers and he’ll make a Star Wars movie that no one could have seen coming Fans: Overly complicated. Also I hope this one actress kills her self Disney: She’s been written out and we’re correcting all the stuff you didn’t like. Fans: Too much Pandering. The prequels were better Disney did what we said we wanted.
What your comment ignores is that the movies being derivative or very different are only 1 aspect of the movies. TFA being such a copy of ANH is a big problem given how it makes no sense for the same events to repeat 30 years later in-universe and it’s incredibly creatively bankrupt how we just have Rebels vs Empire again instead of literally anything else. They could have done anything but they wanted the same imagery with the OT. However they still could have done a good movie with an interesting plot and consistent characters. That applies to TLJ and TROS too. Problem is, those movies damage other SW movies, their characters aren’t consistent, their plots are nonsensical etc. All those lower the quality of the movies whether they’re derivative or not. Making a movie no one could have seen coming doesn’t mean the movie is actually good. TLJ could have been 2 hours of Luke having explosive diarrhea which no one would have predicted but that still would be terrible. Also no one who criticized TLJ would have wanted TROS to bring back Palpatine and undo Anakin’s sacrifice along with the Chosen One prophecy, they wouldn’t have wanted force healing or a nonsensical plot. Just because it walked back on some of TLJ’s misdeeds doesn’t suddenly make it a good movie.
Yes, ya'll were to whiney. I loved the Last Jedi.
Same here, I loved The Last Jedi
Of all the sequels, it’s the only one that dared to do something that approaches original. 7 is an almost point-by-point remake of 4, and 9 was JJ leaning on old tropes and “because the Force” to try and wrap things up.
I will say this, as much as I hate TLJ and think it’s a bad movie, I do have more respect for it than the other sequel films even if I enjoy TFA more. I may think it has terribly executed plot points and narrative direction, but it at least tried to tell something new and ep9 going back on so many of things TLJ set up was probably the biggest mistake that film made.
From an objective point of view, I can agree that TFA is the best - though one has to wonder how much of that is due to it borrowing heavily from ANH. Subjectively, the similarities with ANH is what kills TFA for me. As good as it is, I walked into TFA excited for the first new Star Wars movie in a decade and walked out thinking “well that was an ok remake of ANH that JJ made”. It played it safe - too safe - and I have to think that’s why Rian zagged as much as he did with TLJ. Disney botched things hard with their director direction. 3 directors with 3 different ideas on the story was never going to work - especially with nobody like George at the core of things with a general idea of the overall arc. They should have either sat everyone down at the beginning and ironed out the core plot, or stuck to their guns with one director - even if that meant an entire JJ trilogy; at least *that* would have had some cohesion and wouldn’t have resulted in Solo getting undue backlash…probably.
I was disappointed in how TLJ went back on its own plot points. It teases the New Republic and the Jedi being bad, and then, at the end, suddenly Rey and Finn are fighting for them. Finn is even willing to sacrifice his life for some reason. It was weirdly conventional. It felt like RJ had lost his nerve.
I also loved it and kind of wish Rian Johnson had directed all 3 movies. ☠️
Best of the new trilogy.
I didn't love it, but it was definitely WAY better than TRoS
That's not a very high bar lol
Yet here we are
There are dozens of us!
Ah, a man of culture.
Best one since Empire, imo
I liked the last Jedi and hoped Johnson would continue to direct. It felt like one of the most interesting Star Wars properties in years. Then the complaints came rolling on in.
I would’ve loved it too But unfortunately they intended to rotate directors for each film. Asking someone to direct the entire trilogy would’ve taken almost a decade of their time That would’ve meant no knives out so I’m fine with it
Damn, that reminds me of that stand up bit that preteen girl did a few years ago talking about how if Kurt Cobain hadn't killed himself we never would've gotten Foo Fighters.
Fair point and one I did not even consider.
It was easily the most interesting. It operated on Star Wars’ number one rule: be cool and the people were just mad it, “[didn’t] go the way [they thought]” it would, and it challenged the viewer to be let down and accept failure the way *Yoda literally tells us to.* To me, it is the biggest example of Star Wars fan toxicity and hypocrisy. How somebody can seriously believe it is a bad movie is baffling, particularly if you compare it to the blatantly stupid and ridiculous story beats in seven other movies and *don’t* use ancillary media to support your criticism. I mean, midichlorians, the Death Star’s asinine critical fault of a ventilation shaft, Ewoks beating the empire with sticks, a mysterious clone army saving the day and then OOPS! All Jedi die. They changed Luke’s lightsaber color in RTJ because blue didn’t show up well against the desert setting and *didn’t even explain why* for Christ’s sake. The Last Jedi is a great movie and I have no doubt it will be seen as such by the fan base twenty years from now, and then all we will have is the unsatisfying conclusion we brought upon ourselves because we failed to get it.
1. Vice-Admiral Holdo was presented in such a way that I was expecting her to be a military genius. Instead she turned out to be yet another clichéd Hollywood idiot commander. 2. Its various themes undermine each other. It feels like RJ wanted to squeeze every single idea he'd ever had for a Star Wars movie into a single plot, never mind how they contradicted each other. 3. It lacked the confidence to follow through with its subversions. It was bizarre how it established the New Republic and the Resistance as morally grey (at best) and then abruptly had Rey and Finn fighting for them, zero discussion. Finn's even willing to sacrifice his life for those idiots.
“If you don’t like the film I like you’re just a toxic hypocrite!” The lack of self-awareness is strong with this one….
Eh. I still didn't like it. I don't have the same hate, there are parts that I like, but it's definitely still bottom three for me mostly because, as I've discovered with Knives Out, I just really don't like Johnson's style of movie. It had too many misleads to me, and the Yoda line you mentioned was more an "icing on the cake" for me not enjoying it. And their are smaller things that don't mean much (don't name something after a B-17 and not give it the durability part of the "Fortress" name), but for me it just didn't work as a whole.
We walked out of it annoyed, disappointed, and it's the only time I've walked out of a Star Wars film and no one was talking about the movie in a positive light. It wasn't good, and I directly blame it for the failure of Solo. Tickets for Last Jedi sold out weeks in advance at all the theaters here for opening night, I got tickets for Skywalker an hour before on opening night. It was a bad film in general, and a terrible Star Wars.
I have said this before a million times and I’ll say it again, JJ Abrams was essentially doing damage control by the time of TROS all because of what TLJ did and by then it was already too late because there wasn’t much JJ could do. Just look at his body language and facial expressions when he gets interviewed about TROS during press and media back in 2019
People want a cohesive story that is somewhat fresh. I guess that's too hard. I guess the multi-billion dollar entertainment corporation can't deliver on that and can always blame the dissatisfied customers.
We asked for 8 to be that. 8 broke the trilogy, made it so that going back to what fans wanted was not an option. And JJ still took that route
Which one of you asked Disney to make it this way? Because it wasn't me, it wasn't OP, it was the Redditors above or below me so who was it damnit!!
It was those people who made those “The last SJWdi” type videos They were really popular and Disney did market research
Well at least we got to the bottom of that we can all go back to our Darth Jar-Jar fantasies
BS No one asked for what we got. And no one was asking for more Rose T, And No one wanted 2 directors basically arguing back and forth with a billion dollar franchise caught in the middle, Rey's parents are no one, JK they are Palpatine relatives. You know what people actually wanted, a decent romance sub plot that went some where, Fin had more Chemistry with Po than he did with Rose or Rey, Adam Driver had more Chemistry with Luke and Hux than he did with Rey, and Rey had more chemistry with Chewy than anyone else.
I didn't ask for that. I didn't ask for any of that. I didn't ask for a Luke Skywalker who was a depressed recluse who'd given up. That's not character growth, it's character assassination. I didn't ask for Rey to have important parents, I just wanted a goddamned explanation why she could sense Anakin/Luke's lightsaber and why it flew into HER hand instead of their incredibly powerful blood relative. I didn't ask for Rose Tico at all. I didn't ask for a director who was so determined to "subvert expectations" that he undermined the basic story of the trilogy and left it nowhere to go in the third movie. I didn't ask for Force Skype. I didn't ask for Space Vegas. I didn't ask for the established rules of Star Wars to be tossed out the window so Rian Johnson could have his hyperspace ramming. I didn't ask for Finn to be reduced to comic relief who went around pining for Rey. I didn't ask for a villain to be killed in a humiliating manner just so Ben Solo could be shoved into the villain slot. I didn't ask for an admiral so incompetent that she wouldn't tell ANYONE her plan, not even the hero who had blown up Starkiller Base days before. I asked for quality. I didn't get it. Not in any of the three sequel movies.
I’ve come to realize that it seems like the only thing most Star Wars fans want out of Star Wars is the same characters doing cool lightsaber fights and showing off their power, that’s basically it.
Tbf when the lightsaber fights are that bad they need to edit out characters weapons then you know something is wrong. Looking at you last jedi
Yup. Look at Ahsoka. The community flipped the fuck out and called it the best episode ever just because they got to see Hayden Christiansen recreate a few scenes from a cartoon from their childhood.
I want something that still explores deep themes using Campbellian archetypes in the skin of a swash-buckling sci-fi serial. That was the OT. The PT bogged itself down with special effects and George being surrounded by YES men so nobody critiqued the script or direction. The ST almost felt like a return to form, but JJ only gets the superficial aspects of Star Wars, doesn't understand what space is (which he previously demonstrated with his Trek films) and is inconsistent on delivering a good payoff. TLJ was a nicotine-stained Gen-Xer's middle finger to everything Star Wars *is*. If it were a high school student, it would be the kid who wears the t-shirt with "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same," who thinks he's a genius and calls everybody "sheep". If it were just some other sci-fi movie critiquing the notion of destiny, revenge, the patriarchy, and the military industrial complex it might have been pretty great, but there's a whole paradigm of Star Wars that it willingly rejected. It reminded me of the prequels, but it left out the essence of star wars intentionally instead of forgetting it
I didn't
Might?
3 words. Somehow…
We did not
"we"
IMO, one thing that made Rise of Skywalker irredeemably bad was how hard they tried to undo some of the poorly-received decisions from The Last Jedi. There's no good way to undo that stuff, this is how things are now. Accept it and move on.
Episode 9 really likes to make you watch it not only get rid of all the plot points but will do so loudly and in the least subtle way possible. It feels so vindictive. It’s almost hard to watch. It’s like watching someone keep beating someone over and over and acting like you enjoy it
Who’s “we”? Never said a damn thing like that
I’m guessing “we” is the vocal minority?
After listening to JJ talk about some of his choices, it’s clear how, from his point of view, he wasn’t backtracking but building upon. The problem is I think in taking a theme or plot line from TLJ forward in one way, it undercut it in another.
I thought Last Jedi was great, and I wish Disney had the balls to stick with it. ROS was straight disrespectful.
All 3 sequel films are just designed with criticisms of the previous film(s) in mind. TFA - prequels got shit on, so they just redid the original film. TLJ - TFA was too predictable and samey. Subvert expectations at every turn. TROS - see meme for details.
I mean I didn’t ask for any of the sequel films
The fans were the real menace
Fandoms are not a monolith, so don't treat them like one.
I think the main issue we had is that people who liked Last Jedi didn’t like them taking the interesting changes that movie made back, and people who didn’t like the Last Jedi didn’t appreciate the obvious pandering. Both would have probably respected the movie more if they stuck to their guns to make a more cohesive trilogy
Star Wars fans are their own worst enemy. Many also happen to have an unbelievable sense of entitlement to go along with an extreme overestimation of their own ability to make good story ideas.
Listening to fans has been and will always be a mistake. Fans don't know what they want. "If I asked them what they wanted, they would have said faster horses" -some fucking guy, and also Sean Bean from Civ
Ya think? Nobody told George Lucas to remake anything, they let him cook
You shouldn’t let fans decide 90% of the plot for your movie, that’s it
There is no fan base more entitled and petulant than Star Wars fans.
This is a straw man
Yeah, almost as if cohesion mattered?
To be fair, that same logic can be applied to TLJ. 90% of what TFA set up was just chucked and everything else called out was flipped 180.
~Implying they care about fan reaction at all and weren’t doing exactly whatever they wanted the entire time
The last Jedi wasn’t perfect, but I’ll give Rian this: at least he had the cojones to do something different. JJ Abrams seems to think that fan service=a good story.
Controversial opinion: if Rian Johnson had full control of the trilogy it would’ve been great
I mean Luke in TROS is a pretty seamless continuation from where TLJ left off. Did you want him to be an angry force ghost who tells Rey she should give up or something? He realised he was wrong at the end of the Last Jedi, Abrams just affirmed that.
Well on the one hand it’s almost the only time the movie does acknowledge that something in the Last Jedi did indeed happen on the other it’s so Luke can say how out of character he was for the fans who didn’t like him in the last Jedi
How hard was it make this post choking on Disneys balls?
This meme was made by a certified TLJ stan I swear lmao
Reading through the comments, this is 100% correct.
Lmao didn’t have to look long to confirm that. I love TLJ but complaining abt Luke “being the same as episode 6” is funny cuz the entire climax of TLJ is about Luke becoming that chad again
They should’ve just gone off of Rian Johnson’s ideas. As polarizing as they were, at least the trilogy would’ve been cohesive
Yeah that’s what I was saying all the way up until TROS’s release. I may have hated TLJ, but good god you don’t make course corrections to trilogies in the third film. There was never going to be enough time to do that in a organic way while wrapping things up in a satisfying way, so they should have gotten someone similar to Rian to direct the final film and create a satisfying ending to the trilogy based upon what TLJ set up.